I have my puppy in socialization class BUT

[LB2007]

He is 3lbs and all the other dogs are 30lbs and up to 100 and are still puppies his age. Problem is he is so tiny and they are SO very rough, am I paranoid to not want this? I dont like the aggression they show towards him all he does is run fall on his back and lay there defenceless. I am wondering if this is attributed to his barking at everything and every dog he sees in the street?

[Plushie]

Whoa! If your pupper is rolling onto his back, he's showing submission to these dogs and if they're so rough, you should get the owner of the other dogs to get their dogs to be a little less rough and a bit more nice. That could cause dominince in them and could cause dog-fear in your pup, but I take it your dog is either a pom, chi, pap or something along that line since it's small size.

Or, maybe you could find a socialization class just for smaller-sized dogs? :rolleyes: I'm sorry I can't be of that much help. Most of my posts are just rambling on.

[Giny]

Yah, I agree, he needs to be in a class with smaller breeds. The other puppies don't mean to be rough, they are being puppies. But you're little fellah should be introduce to dogs his own size then get him used to bigger adult dogs who are used to being around little dogs.

Do you have any friends with small dogs? Might be a good thing to get together in a small group in an enclosed area. That's how mine get socialized with other dogs.

[malmo]

Is there a leader to the class? When does s/he intervene? What are the supervision procedures?

I have been observing a class with mixed sizes for my chi puppy as well, but there is a separate pen where small dogs and new puppies hang out for the first few weeks and select dogs are put into the pen with them that will not be too boisterous. The leader is very active, running from dog to dog and intervening when things get too crazy. Two straight weeks, she has told an owner to put her puppy on a leash and keep him on a leash during the whole group because he was "rude" (her word). All of the people in the group agree that their puppies learn quickly what is appropriate and what is not. Lots of small breeds there too mixed in with the large breeds and a few very gentle adult dogs who are also "supervisors" and break things up that get too rough.

I'm curious about the person running the group. Can you tell us more?

[Xerxes]

What breed is your pup? How are there 100lb pups in his class? Just curious.

[adojrts]

It is for these very reasons I don't allow, off leash puppy socializing, because it often turns into a free for all mess. If we allow the pups to be off leash, it is very controlled and the pups are playing with pups of their own size group. And if we have a dominate pup, he/she is NOT allowed to be the class bully.
It is interesting, that many trainers are not having these kinds of socializations happening in their classes anymore. Or if they do, they are much more careful about it, because they have learned from experience that with some pups it can have long lasting ill effects on the pups.
Recently I had someone, not join my puppy class because of my policy on this. So she went to a trainer that does have it, results are, she now has a pup that is very fear aggressive towards other pups/dogs (especially dogs/pups of one colour and breed because of the problems with such a dog from that class, which completely dominated and scared the h*ll out of her pup.) Now the damage is done, I tried to warn her and explain it but she didn't believe me. Of course this person (I know her) is one of the most inept people I have ever met when it comes to behaviour and dog training, she THINKS she knows, when in fact her knowledge is very limited. And the fact is that her dogs are also soooooooooooo socially inept as well, it goes hand in hand often. Her dogs tend to be either fear aggressive or very rude.

Lynn

[Doberluv]

Socialization is very important but when anything overwhelms or frightens a pup, it can ruin a dog. You need to get your pup out of that class and either find one where it is much more controlled. With your pup, it is important to have good, positive experiences with other pups of various sizes and breeds so it is not only little breeds that he is OK with. However, the puppies must be kept from getting rough and let the more physical contact be with other little dogs. The bigger pups could sniff noses and greet, but there shouldn't be any hard physical contact at all.

Your pup is alreay showing fear, it sounds like so it is imperative that you change his mind and let him have some good experiences. I'd personally skip the classes where there are many other pups and try to find a friend or two with friendly, gentle pups of various sizes and just get together with one other one for a while, then maybe two or three. That's enough. Don't overwhelm him. And do keep all pups on leashes until you see how they do together. Save the off leash, rough and tumble for pups of your pup's size and only when your pup is having fun and wants to join in. That's my .02.

[malmo]

Maybe you could mention it to one or two puppies from your class that your dog does okay with -- would they be willing to meet at a non-class time and have safer play?

[LB2007]

Whoa! If your pupper is rolling onto his back, he's showing submission to these dogs and if they're so rough, you should get the owner of the other dogs to get their dogs to be a little less rough and a bit more nice. That could cause dominince in them and could cause dog-fear in your pup, but I take it your dog is either a pom, chi, pap or something along that line since it's small size.

Or, maybe you could find a socialization class just for smaller-sized dogs? :rolleyes: I'm sorry I can't be of that much help. Most of my posts are just rambling on.


Its a Pom and he is very very small. Yes, he shows dominance and I dont like it, he was fine until they started to throw their whole huge body on him. I dont like it here at the schools the only cater for large dogs, and small dog owners are SOL. I have ran an add in the local pet paper hoping to get other people with medium to smaller dogs. I dont think a puppy so minature should be playing or submissing rough to a the big breed of dogs. The only huge one that seemed dorcile and calm was the Irish wolfhound and he was HUGE. The belgian shepheard and Labs were the roughest, while they may be able to play that way with their bigger pals, they cannot expect to throw their bodies and paw him in the face when their paw is the size of his head twiceand then stepping on him. I screamed out to the owners and the teacher. She said she was sorry and asked them to put on the leash.:rolleyes: It is NO wonder he freaks out on the street:(

[LB2007]

Yah, I agree, he needs to be in a class with smaller breeds. The other puppies don't mean to be rough, they are being puppies. But you're little fellah should be introduce to dogs his own size then get him used to bigger adult dogs who are used to being around little dogs.

Do you have any friends with small dogs? Might be a good thing to get together in a small group in an enclosed area. That's how mine get socialized with other dogs.



No, but I see people on the street with small dogs and I usually stop and let them sniff. But the schools here cater to the large dogs, the large dogs are more popular and small are the minority.

[LB2007]

Is there a leader to the class? When does s/he intervene? What are the supervision procedures?

I have been observing a class with mixed sizes for my chi puppy as well, but there is a separate pen where small dogs and new puppies hang out for the first few weeks and select dogs are put into the pen with them that will not be too boisterous. The leader is very active, running from dog to dog and intervening when things get too crazy. Two straight weeks, she has told an owner to put her puppy on a leash and keep him on a leash during the whole group because he was "rude" (her word). All of the people in the group agree that their puppies learn quickly what is appropriate and what is not. Lots of small breeds there too mixed in with the large breeds and a few very gentle adult dogs who are also "supervisors" and break things up that get too rough.

I'm curious about the person running the group. Can you tell us more?

Hell no, they class by AGE, so it does not matter is there is a saint bernard and he is also 5 months or 6 months they all hang in the same class. the school here are for age and not size, so I am SOL really. While I want him to have better experiences, having this kind so young is bad, he tucks his tail that normally lays on top his back between his legs and runs between my legs. the owners of their rough dogs are like WTF is wrong with my dog. WELL duhhh:rolleyes:

They SEEM not all that knowledgeable really, I think here it is just peole who have experience with many dogs. I dont like the schols. I have been to the 5th and they are all the same, cater for large dogs. Ten dogs and one trainer. They do not go to the dogs. The owners are the ones to tend to the dogs. The teacher just tells what games to play etc.:rolleyes:

[LB2007]

What breed is your pup? How are there 100lb pups in his class? Just curious.



Again, they go by a dogs age, once he is past 17 weeks they are put in the area with the dogs from 4 to seems like 8 months old regardless of their size.

I have Pomeranian and he is now 4.5 months and 3lbs

[LB2007]

It is for these very reasons I don't allow, off leash puppy socializing, because it often turns into a free for all mess. If we allow the pups to be off leash, it is very controlled and the pups are playing with pups of their own size group. And if we have a dominate pup, he/she is NOT allowed to be the class bully.
It is interesting, that many trainers are not having these kinds of socializations happening in their classes anymore. Or if they do, they are much more careful about it, because they have learned from experience that with some pups it can have long lasting ill effects on the pups.
Recently I had someone, not join my puppy class because of my policy on this. So she went to a trainer that does have it, results are, she now has a pup that is very fear aggressive towards other pups/dogs (especially dogs/pups of one colour and breed because of the problems with such a dog from that class, which completely dominated and scared the h*ll out of her pup.) Now the damage is done, I tried to warn her and explain it but she didn't believe me. Of course this person (I know her) is one of the most inept people I have ever met when it comes to behaviour and dog training, she THINKS she knows, when in fact her knowledge is very limited. And the fact is that her dogs are also soooooooooooo socially inept as well, it goes hand in hand often. Her dogs tend to be either fear aggressive or very rude.

Lynn


I TOTALLY agree, but try telling that to these damned Germans. Tehy FEEL they know it all. When I tell them I do not like the hard pelting rough kicking my puppy around play where he is on his back and three dogs are on him kicking him around, even my husband says leave him let him be, but I DONT think that is right at all, they say I am PARANOID WTF:mad: my poor little boy runs off crying like dogs do when they are scared WTF, how can this be a positive thing:mad:

I have placed an ad i the local paper I am hoping to meet somebody. what exactly is fear aggressive behavior?

[LB2007]

Socialization is very important but when anything overwhelms or frightens a pup, it can ruin a dog. You need to get your pup out of that class and either find one where it is much more controlled. With your pup, it is important to have good, positive experiences with other pups of various sizes and breeds so it is not only little breeds that he is OK with. However, the puppies must be kept from getting rough and let the more physical contact be with other little dogs. The bigger pups could sniff noses and greet, but there shouldn't be any hard physical contact at all.

Your pup is alreay showing fear, it sounds like so it is imperative that you change his mind and let him have some good experiences. I'd personally skip the classes where there are many other pups and try to find a friend or two with friendly, gentle pups of various sizes and just get together with one other one for a while, then maybe two or three. That's enough. Don't overwhelm him. And do keep all pups on leashes until you see how they do together. Save the off leash, rough and tumble for pups of your pup's size and only when your pup is having fun and wants to join in. That's my .02.


These fools here believe that putting and FORCING him to interact with bigger rougher more dominant dogs is what will make him better:mad: , the dog is paranoid and frighten of his OWN shadow:( . When he is with ME alone he is a happy confident dog but not when he it out there:( .

Today we took him walking in the city and it was a JOB a hard job, he was terrified of everything:(

[Laurelin]

Okay, well...

First things with any small breed you have to be wary attending classes. Small dogs are more fragile and need to be watched when they're around large breeds.

Honestly, we dont' go to dog parks for this reason. We had issues in one of our obedience classes because the other dogs were all much bigger and it was geared towards bigger dogs. (That and the trainer did leash corrections which is another story. don't use choke chains on little dogs)

Anyways, the best thing is to find some small dog owners to socialize your dog with. We have gatherings of papillons and owners to have play dates. Sure there are some bigger dogs there, but they're watched and they're always siblings of the paps so they know how to behave around little dogs.

[Brattina88]

I'm confused . . .
why don't you just take him out of the class ?

[LB2007]

I'm confused . . .
why don't you just take him out of the class ?

It is the 5th dog school I have been to in the past month, I am running out of options. Again, small dogs are a minority here and so you MAY find one dog bigger than him but still a small breed there. GErmans believe that I am paranoid to not want my dogs to rough play with those bigger breeds. Labs are clumsy dogs and very playful and rough in play and can hurt him very much, he is only 3lbs, if they fall on him he will be crushed to death. I tell the morons this and thy say OH he will be ok. WTF....if I take himout of class what will happen then when we are onthe street and I see a big dog? Do I just pick him up? I am wondering if this is the best thing to do`? what about when I go to dog shows and he starts to bark at other big dogs there? This is the problem I have. When I lived back home in the USA my dog was fine. This is a different story now:mad:

[LB2007]

Okay, well...

First things with any small breed you have to be wary attending classes. Small dogs are more fragile and need to be watched when they're around large breeds.

Honestly, we dont' go to dog parks for this reason. We had issues in one of our obedience classes because the other dogs were all much bigger and it was geared towards bigger dogs. (That and the trainer did leash corrections which is another story. don't use choke chains on little dogs)

Anyways, the best thing is to find some small dog owners to socialize your dog with. We have gatherings of papillons and owners to have play dates. Sure there are some bigger dogs there, but they're watched and they're always siblings of the paps so they know how to behave around little dogs.


I do not know anyone with dogs his size. I see some on the street, I dont know the peoplw and people are NOT exactly friendly here. I am hopig to get a response from the ad, because I am sure other owners feel the same way as I do. Will they still be able to be trained to NOT bark at big dogs?

[Brattina88]

Do you have any friends, co-workers, etc that have well-behaved, adult, "big" dogs?
IMO, people think to socialize a dog to another dog, is to let them interact and "play", like at dog parks. To me, socialization is also seeing dogs from across the street and being about to remain calm.

As a big dog owner, I have to say that your focus should maybe be less on the size of the dog/s, and focus more on the behaviors and temperaments. If a pup is being to rough, then they need to be reminded to take it easy -- that doesn't matter if they're 3 pounds or 300! Puppies are clumsy; I've always preferred socializing my puppy(s) with adult dogs. Pups can learn a lot from well behaved adult dogs! :)
Also, I may be wrong, but I have a suspicion that your pup is picking up on some emotions/anxieties you are having in class, and on the streets as well ;) imho

I do not know anyone with dogs his size.
what about his breeder?

I am hopig to get a response from the ad, because I am sure other owners feel the same way as I do. Will they still be able to be trained to NOT bark at big dogs?

good luck with the add!

[LB2007]

I am afraid of big dogs, that is correct, was bitten as a child several times, the fear still lurks. Now IF I raise a big dog from apuppy I am not afraid, but I am only afraid of other people's big dogs, especially BLACK dogs as they have a dime a dozen here. The worst are the street people who tend to have some enormous big black dogs. But so far, I have NOT seen any big dog on the street that I uncomfortable towards. We are only speaking now of schools and ont he street. The dogs he meets aer medium dogs so far but soem are aggressive and growl and show teeth

I agree, socializing is not just about playing. NO, I have no friends with dogs let alonen adult dogs. The problem with the pomeranian breed is this. While they are small, they often let off a thing that causes big dogs to attack them. I have seen it happen so often to poms :( so this is my fear, that no matter how nice a big dog is, the pom may trigger something with vibes that may trigger an attack. Who knows what signals dogs give each other.

I may have to LIE and put him in welpe school and tell them he is 11 weeks or something like this. He is so small he can pass for anything

[heartdogs]

I would pull him from that class and try to find another one. It's one thing to be in a class with larger dogs, but it's another to be in a class where the instructor does nothing to keep the smaller breed dogs safe. That's what ex pens and partitions are for. In the meantime, grab a copy of "Little Dogs: Training Your Pint Sized Companion". And, try to find some friends who also have small dogs or small pups that you can socialize your dog with. Don't give up - try these sites to find a competent trainer near you that can help:
www.trulydogfriendly.com
www.peaceablepaws.com
www.clickertraining.com
www.apdt.com

[misticaleclipse]

I may have to LIE and put him in welpe school and tell them he is 11 weeks or something like this. He is so small he can pass for anything

This is what I was thinking as well, especially since this is your 5th one, but
rather than going and paying for a 6th one, I would DEMAND that your dog
be placed in the smaller group. He is so small there would be no harm
to the other dogs, but it would be safer for him.
If the trainer would not listen I would go over their head. You have a legitimate concern.

What about any dog parks? many of them have a sectioned off space for small dogs.

[Laurelin]

What about any dog parks? many of them have a sectioned off space for small dogs.

I know the sectioned off space at dog parks around here are absolutely awful. Most people have large dogs (labs mainly). The small dog 'section' is an area smaller than the size of my bedroom that is basically a mudhole. It always irks me.

[LB2007]

I would pull him from that class and try to find another one. It's one thing to be in a class with larger dogs, but it's another to be in a class where the instructor does nothing to keep the smaller breed dogs safe. That's what ex pens and partitions are for. In the meantime, grab a copy of "Little Dogs: Training Your Pint Sized Companion". And, try to find some friends who also have small dogs or small pups that you can socialize your dog with. Don't give up - try these sites to find a competent trainer near you that can help:
www.trulydogfriendly.com
www.peaceablepaws.com
www.clickertraining.com
www.apdt.com

Honey, thanks but I live in Germany. There are no more choices as I have tried all 5 schools in the areas surrounding my city. I will have to now leave the state to find a school. They are ALL the same, useless. I will read the training your pint size and see what I might be able to do. And again, I have placed an ad in the local paper.

[LB2007]

This is what I was thinking as well, especially since this is your 5th one, but
rather than going and paying for a 6th one, I would DEMAND that your dog
be placed in the smaller group. He is so small there would be no harm
to the other dogs, but it would be safer for him.
If the trainer would not listen I would go over their head. You have a legitimate concern.

What about any dog parks? many of them have a sectioned off space for small dogs.

I thinik I will do this, I will demand he goes to puppy class and work his way up with that group until they are older. Also there are no dog parks that is an American thing. In Europe the whole country is a dog park so to speak.

[LB2007]

I know the sectioned off space at dog parks around here are absolutely awful. Most people have large dogs (labs mainly). The small dog 'section' is an area smaller than the size of my bedroom that is basically a mudhole. It always irks me.

I will not ever take him to a dog park if we had one as people do not take care that their animals are hurting others in rough play. If mine was a bigger dog I wont be like this, but he is too small. Vet even said today that to be careful around other dogs as his BONES are still not fully developed:( So imagine a 40 lbs lab baby puppy falling on him:mad: ,

I am giong to call the dog school now

[LB2007]

Well I just got off the phone with three of the dog schools. They all assured me that they do not and WILL not separate small minature dogs from bigger puppy dogs. They said that the dogs NEED to learn to defend themselves in a pack. I think that is bull. Because how the hell can a 3lbs dog defend himself from 3 dogs at 30 plus pounds each, 30 being the VERY smallest those horse puppies go as high as 100lbs:mad: . they said also, it is NOT their place to intervene and that he has to learn self defense WTF:mad:

I told them the other big puppies bully him and terrorize him into submission and that he is terrified now and will bark at all dogs. I understand if they fear at the school and something bad happens, they will fear all dogs. How the heck cant these fools understand this?

[Doberluv]

These people sound like morons and do not understand canine behavior. Pull your dog out of that class asap. Forget classes if these people are all of that mindset and train your dog yourself. You can do it. Find a friend or two if you can to get together with. If you can't socialize your pup to other dogs, then you most likely will need to avoid other dogs in the future because you'll have a dog who is naive about dog language and greeting. As it is, with these scary experiences, your dog is likely to have problems where other dogs are concerned. I'd concentrate on socializing with humans and various environments, objects, kids, moving bicycles, noisy traffic.....all gradually and associated with food and fun.

A tiny dog can not defend himself against bigger dogs. That's absurd. Being overwhelmed and frightened will make him fearful and aggressive with other dogs.

Run, don't walk from this class and others that are like that. Train your dog yourself and just be pals.