Anxiety in public, reactivness and lunging...

[Kayla]

With Duke finally reaching a year old and having successfuly completed, puppy kindergarden, basic obidence and level II obidence I was looking forward to a settling maturing dog whose behavioural issues would slowly with time, work and positive reinforcement would improve.

But that's the thing they haven't. Duke is still extremely reactive, extremely anxious in public ( lowered ears, frantic look in eyes, rigid tail, growling, barking, lunging and what seems to be nervous panting). I've tried so many things and so many suggestions and nothing seems to work. My OB trainer recomended a Halti so i could physically turn his head away from what he was barking at. But that was only a band aid solution as hed fight like hell and at 85lbs it usually ment I lost. Then i tried teaching more focus with a watch it command, it works semi- well if i have a treat and hold it right in front of my face but only if the cause of the reaction is more then 20 feet away. I've also distracting him by making him get into a down or sit position (i.e making him take attention off reaction cause to work and focus on me) however this to has it's limited effectiveness. I know the penny in the can method is supposde to be a good but my only concern is it will only work for 5 seconds at which point i could get him to watch me or go to a sit or down but he becomes so focused on the reaction that this only would work for a few seconds.

The worst part is never knowing how he will react around approaching people and dogs, many times he walks by without a second thought, i even had a dog snap off its leash and run full speed at us just for duke to casually sniff it before walking along. Other times he will see a dog 10,20 feet away and decides he hates it, same with people. Today he actually sprang up at a young boy walking by and lunged and completely knocked me off balance ( as I was sitting and he got up and sprang up pulling me backwards for a split second.

Usually his reactivness dramatically increases when we are stationary and usually when we are sitting for a smoke especially at night. I can tell many times by his experesson that he doesnt feel comfortable in public when were stationary as after a growling a few times he will stop an cry before resuming and his facial expressions seems very tense.

I'm just not sure what else i can do and with little money to my name as I am a student a behaviouralist is something I wont be able to afford for a few more pay checks as Duke's due for his vaccines soon.

When we go to the vet i'll see if they can check for any imbalances that may be making him more anxious and see if there are any herbal solutions if that were the case along for checking for anything medically wrong that may be making him feel vulnrable. Besides that i'm really beyond knowing what to do.

Obviously I love him to death I just don't like seeing him so uncomfortable in public and because of our current lifestyle he does need to come to many ublic places with me including my work, outdoor outings, smaller parties when im not drinking simply so i can feed him/ give him water/ excersise him etc whenever possible.

The only time i really see him relaxed are at home and when were walking but not stopping...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/exotica_reptiles16/Duke/008.jpg

[Zoom]

Actually, it sounds like you'll be able to work with him fairly easily. You've already identified a lot of cues he gives you...the distance he'll tolerate, the looks on his face before he goes off, etc. He gives you a chance to respond before he lets loose. If you know he will tolerate 20 feet, then back up to 25 and work on focusing at that distance (or get a rock-solid "watch me" inside first, away from the distractions).

If you have any extra money, I say go pick up a copy of "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier. I just got done reading it and she has a chapter where she talks about this problem, with a German Shepherd and what she did. It's just a good book all the way around...she sort of lost me at first with her childhood reminicing, but after that it was good stuff.

[Kayla]

Thanks for the book recomendation Zoom i'll check it out as soon as I can afford to. In the meantime i've been uping his OB work at home, doing more heeling, retrieving objects, jumps and obsticle courses to work his attention.

I've also been making an extra effort to read him better and anticipate before he starts by making him to drop to a down stay and watch me ( and holding a treat right in front of my face then clicking and treating), today actually went much better then any other attempt at this and I actully got him to not bark excessively at anyone:).

It's just odd as he seems to go through regressions in which he is much much more hard to control on same days in different circumstances then others.

But after todays success i actually think its the first time in months that I've had alot of hope towards solving the behaviour, i think were still in for a ride yet but getting closer and closer every day.

The hardest part is to consistantly remember to grab my clicker and treats before leaving to walk him and equally hard to remind myself to not get fusterated as there have been a few times he has made me lose it unfortunatly (when he lunged at the boy it was just my natural reaction to pull him back and give him a smack before i even realised what i was doing) and he responds so much better to soft handling especially in reactive mode.

Ill keep everyone updated though.

[Doberluv]

That's a wonderful book. If he's lunging aggressively at humans, I really would enlist the help of a certified behaviorist who can really evalutate your dog, the body language etc. I know it can be expensive and maybe you can't do that. But when it comes to humans, you really have to be so careful and go about it the right way so things don't get worse. Another great book is Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. I highly recommend it. Good luck!

[VWilson]

Duke does not trust you, nor does he see you as his leader, and protector.
Therefore he feels the need to evaluate, and decide for himself what actions to take.

It is very important that the owner has a grasp upon this, or all the OB training in the world will not matter. as the dog will be unstable, and frightened.

Dogs follow a leader, not a buddy, not the person who feeds them, not a person ith whom they share herbal tea, and talks nice to them. Being on the human end of the lead does not make you a leader, it may only make you an anchor to start.

They always gravitate to the leader. It is deeply ingrained in their DNA to want a leader, and if needed to fill the spot themselves, even if they do not want the job.

The leader makes the decisions, and does the protecting, and thinking.

When left to make their own decisions, they almost always become what you describe.
When in doubt, they will always strike first, if they cannot run.
Yes, he obviously has fear issue, but his biggest fear that cripples him emotionally is his being afraid you will not protect him.

Change that, and you change the dog entire behavior.

Val Wilson

[houndlove]

And how would you go about doing that, considering no one is actually threatening this dog for the leader to demonstrate that she would protect him? I've heard that theory a lot before (having a fearful dog myself) and I was never quite able to grasp how I'd show him that I would protect him when in actual fact there is nothing out there that I could demonstrate that protection on because nothing is actually threatening us. It's all in his head.

[adojrts]

V Wilson;
Are you saying that by using corrections that you build trust, therefore becoming the leader?

[Gempress]

EDIT: Too early in the morning for the soapbox.

[Saintgirl]

Kayla, Zoom gave you wonderful advice, and Doberluv recommended another great book. I use to have a problem with my Saint being reactive and snarly with other dogs when we were out in public. Not only was it embarrassing and inappropriate, it made me sad because we were able to go anywhere and do anything before he had reached maturity. But now that maturity had kicked in, and yes he was neutered, he had dog aggression. This was a huge problem for us because we go everywhere with our dogs. Luckily with a little behavior modification using positive reinforcement we can and do go everywhere again.

I used the approach in behavior modification refered to Behavior enhancement approaches. These are designed to reduce the incidence of destructive behaviors by making socially desirable responses more probable by reinforcing more appropriate competing or alternative behaviors rather than by suppressing the destructive behaviors directly. Specifically, I decided to utilize Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behavior otherwise known as DRI.

In DRI the issue is one of replacing the undesirable behavior with something better. In practice, an alternative behavior is chosen that is physically incompatible with the problem behavior; increasing the frequency of this incompatible behavior will necessarily produce a decrease in the undesirable behavior. An intermittent schedule of reinforcement is selected. If at the end of each time interval the individual is engaging in the incompatible behavior, the individual receives reinforcement.


You first need to determine the destructive behavior, the undesirable lunging, growling etc, and then decide on a target behavior- one that you will reinforce immediatley when it occurs. The reason that I say chose a specified target behavior is because it is often easier to choose one and immediately reinforce it than deciding on the spot if the other behaviors being shown are worthy of reinforcement even if they are not the destructive behavior? Although this can work, and even has a name, for a beginner to eliminate a behavior it is easier to use A- destructive behavior and B-target behavior. Follow me?

I personally chose a down stay combined with a focus on me. First we made sure that this was a reliable command. One that was immediatley responded to with the appropriate down and focus followed by a great reinforcer- in my case it was CHEESE!!! I swear my boy will do anything for cheese! Hutch could not physically engage in his destructive behaviors of acting like an a$$ (his destructive behavior) while focusing on me in a down stay (his target behavior). Soon we began to practise where there were more distractions, and we graduated to his trigger distractions (other dogs). As soon as he would become interested in the other dogs we went into the down/focus and held it and reinforced!

Now when we see oncoming dogs he is more focused on me to see if he should be awaiting his down/focus. We have been able to eliminate the down part of the incompatible behavior and we only use the focus. Does this mean that he likes other dogs now? No, not really but he is able to produce acceptable behaviors that allow us to participate in any outting we choose. We attend dog functions and he is neither stressed or agitated to be in the situation. He is happy because we are out experiencing new things together- and being together is what matters most to him.

I want to add that I litterally spelled out the science jargon word for word because of late there has been alot of promotion of aversive techniques. I wanted to be able to show that proven methods of behavior modification that are practised daily by professionals around the world do work. My dog was not trained out of his destructive behaviors using fear based methods, and it did not take half of his life to teach him this. It took a couple of weeks. No, not the over night approach, but one that is reliable and did not compromise our relationship in the least.

Kayla, your dogs situation is a different one. He is being reactive to both dogs and humans, which is very serious. However, the simple technique that I used can begin to help you. I strongly urge you to get professional help, because they can better point out his triggers to stress and aggitation and can help you determine the best solution. I know that you have said that money is tight, but if that extra money happens to fall into your lap... Until then, he can't lunge at strange people and risk biting them if he is not in that situation.

[Lilavati]

Sarama's problems are nothing as serious as Duke's, but what I do is similar to Saintgirl's recommendations. It seems to work.

When she gets worked up, I tell her to sit. I give her a treat for sitting. And then we wait until she calms down. IIf she gets back up, I tell her to sit again. If I have to, I place her, gently, into a sit (if she absolutely refuses to sit then we leave the area)

If its something she's afraid of, in particular, I start talking in a calm, cheerful voice (not a soothing voice) just a calm, conversational, even somewhat bored tone. For example: "Oh, look, its the garbage truck. Isn't it big and loud. Yeah, and I can see how that might be intimidating. Oh, look at the garbage men. Tough job." I don't do this because I believe she is understanding a word I'm saying, but because it is calm behavior and keeps her attention on me. But it also shows her that I find nothing alarming, or even all that interesting about it (I look around the area while I'm talking, not just at what has her worked up). This seems to work for me. With objects that spook her (like the bronze elephant my grandmother sent me) my fiance and I pass it back and forth, remarking calmly on how interesting and nice it is until she calms down and investigates.

Of course, passers-by probably think I'm deeply insane.

[VWilson]

V Wilson;
Are you saying that by using corrections that you build trust, therefore becoming the leader?

Yes they do.

Here is the basic rule of overcoming these fear behaviors, such as lunging, and aggressiveness, and I am quite aware of how it seems, or sounds

The stress of the correction, must overcome the stress of the distraction.
heavy stress gets heavier corrections

The dog will stop the behavior, and find out that everythng is OK when the dog is with the master, and therefore trust the judgement of the master.
eventually they decide everything is just plain OK

It simply works, does not really matter why, but it does.

I have a dog that was extremely aggressive to other dogs, who will lock into my side in a heal position when threatened by another dog.
At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

He is now a curious friendly dog that is constantly wanting to meet, and greet other dogs. A problem all in itself, but a good problem to have.

[Doberluv]

Kayla, Zoom gave you wonderful advice, and Doberluv recommended another great book. I use to have a problem with my Saint being reactive and snarly with other dogs when we were out in public. Not only was it embarrassing and inappropriate, it made me sad because we were able to go anywhere and do anything before he had reached maturity. But now that maturity had kicked in, and yes he was neutered, he had dog aggression. This was a huge problem for us because we go everywhere with our dogs. Luckily with a little behavior modification using positive reinforcement we can and do go everywhere again.

I used the approach in behavior modification refered to Behavior enhancement approaches. These are designed to reduce the incidence of destructive behaviors by making socially desirable responses more probable by reinforcing more appropriate competing or alternative behaviors rather than by suppressing the destructive behaviors directly. Specifically, I decided to utilize Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behavior otherwise known as DRI.

In DRI the issue is one of replacing the undesirable behavior with something better. In practice, an alternative behavior is chosen that is physically incompatible with the problem behavior; increasing the frequency of this incompatible behavior will necessarily produce a decrease in the undesirable behavior. An intermittent schedule of reinforcement is selected. If at the end of each time interval the individual is engaging in the incompatible behavior, the individual receives reinforcement.


You first need to determine the destructive behavior, the undesirable lunging, growling etc, and then decide on a target behavior- one that you will reinforce immediatley when it occurs. The reason that I say chose a specified target behavior is because it is often easier to choose one and immediately reinforce it than deciding on the spot if the other behaviors being shown are worthy of reinforcement even if they are not the destructive behavior? Although this can work, and even has a name, for a beginner to eliminate a behavior it is easier to use A- destructive behavior and B-target behavior. Follow me?

I personally chose a down stay combined with a focus on me. First we made sure that this was a reliable command. One that was immediatley responded to with the appropriate down and focus followed by a great reinforcer- in my case it was CHEESE!!! I swear my boy will do anything for cheese! Hutch could not physically engage in his destructive behaviors of acting like an a$$ (his destructive behavior) while focusing on me in a down stay (his target behavior). Soon we began to practise where there were more distractions, and we graduated to his trigger distractions (other dogs). As soon as he would become interested in the other dogs we went into the down/focus and held it and reinforced!

Now when we see oncoming dogs he is more focused on me to see if he should be awaiting his down/focus. We have been able to eliminate the down part of the incompatible behavior and we only use the focus. Does this mean that he likes other dogs now? No, not really but he is able to produce acceptable behaviors that allow us to participate in any outting we choose. We attend dog functions and he is neither stressed or agitated to be in the situation. He is happy because we are out experiencing new things together- and being together is what matters most to him.

I want to add that I litterally spelled out the science jargon word for word because of late there has been alot of promotion of aversive techniques. I wanted to be able to show that proven methods of behavior modification that are practised daily by professionals around the world do work. My dog was not trained out of his destructive behaviors using fear based methods, and it did not take half of his life to teach him this. It took a couple of weeks. No, not the over night approach, but one that is reliable and did not compromise our relationship in the least.

Kayla, your dogs situation is a different one. He is being reactive to both dogs and humans, which is very serious. However, the simple technique that I used can begin to help you. I strongly urge you to get professional help, because they can better point out his triggers to stress and aggitation and can help you determine the best solution. I know that you have said that money is tight, but if that extra money happens to fall into your lap... Until then, he can't lunge at strange people and risk biting them if he is not in that situation.

Two thumbs up! Excellent post Saintgirl.

[ToscasMom]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

[VWilson]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

Sideways insults, nice way to dicuss something.
When the mealy mouthed, narrow minded insulting starts, the discussion is over for me.

Stick to you dogmatic, and limited thinking, and only manage your curable problems instead of fixing them.
Limit the experiences of yourself, and your dog.

You keep that thinking, and the open minded people can go about using the proper methiods for the individual dog whether it be treat, praise, mild, medium, or heavy corrections.

I am done.
No more comments from me.


V W

[ToscasMom]

the discussion is over for me.

I am done.
No more comments from me

Excellent.

[Saintgirl]

You know what V Wilson, I am sick and tired of hearing you repeatedly say , and I quote
Stick to you dogmatic, and limited thinking, and only manage your curable problems instead of fixing them.
Limit the experiences of yourself, and your dog.

When this is exactley what you are doing and how you are behaving. It is a shame that you have limited your canine behavior expertise to such a small tried but untrue method. Again, I am not denying that it works, but at what cost? And in the end is it truely reliable?

I am done.
No more comments from me.


Good. It is seriously starting to worry me that new dog owners and those interested in canine behavior will consider your methods when better and healthier methods exist. You may not believe this, but the educated behavior modifiers certainly do.

[adojrts]

[QUOTE=VWilson;843210]Yes they do.


At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

QUOTE]


And what happends if/when you are unable to protect him??

[showdawgz]

[QUOTE=VWilson;843210]Yes they do.


At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

QUOTE]


And what happends if/when you are unable to protect him??

You do your d@mn best to protect them.

[showdawgz]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

Isnt that getting quite old. :confused:

[ron]

Something that I think helps is to catch him being good. When in public and he is not going schizo, reward those calm moments.

[ToscasMom]

Isnt that getting quite old.
No older than the yank and pull advice that matches it.

[ToscasMom]

Tell you what Showdawgs. If you have a problem with my posts, you can go to my profile and scroll to the "Add this person to my ignore list" and click.

[Dekka]

LOL

Hey showdawgs, what do you show your dogs in? Can you give us an example of where forcing/flooding a dog has worked for you?

[ToscasMom]

You know I've just about had it with these "Whip your utilitarian dog into submission" people.

You are here because you have outstayed your welcome everywhere else, haven't you? You could start your own forum but there would be an echo in it wouldn't there? I am sick and tired of watching respected trainers in their field have to defend against abusive advice.

Do not assume that the people on this board fell off the back of a moving truck.

Come to think of it, I just came up with a new tool for you. You can throw your dog off the back of a moving truck. That ought to straighten him out. A broken dog is a happy dog, right?

[showdawgz]

LOL

Hey showdawgs, what do you show your dogs in? Can you give us an example of where forcing/flooding a dog has worked for you?

I dont show my dogs, dog shows do nothing for my breed. I train my dogs in CPP, French Ring, Schutzhund, ect and train/raise pups for the police department. I dont have time for useless agility and conformation shows.

I dont force my dog to do anything, they do it for two reasons
a) because they get a reward (more toy based)
b) because I asked that behavior from them, whether or not a reward is present.

Flooding? I have no idea what that is, but whatever

I'm getting a little tired of your ignorance, so have fun prancing around the agility ring, I have real dogs to train.

[showdawgz]

You know I've just about had it with these "Whip your utilitarian dog into submission" people.

You are here because you have outstayed your welcome everywhere else, haven't you? You could start your own forum but there would be an echo in it wouldn't there? I am sick and tired of watching respected trainers in their field have to defend against abusive advice.

Do not assume that the people on this board fell off the back of a moving truck.

Come to think of it, I just came up with a new tool for you. You can throw your dog off the back of a moving truck. That ought to straighten him out. A broken dog is a happy dog, right?


Who said anything about whipping a dog? I love how you all come up with such nonsense.

No I am on many other forums, I just come here to read all these ignorant pet dog trainers, its kinda amusing to me.

I find it funny how no one gives advice for headstrong dogs, fearful dogs, agression ect on this forum, but recommend a behavioralist that more and like will use some form of corrections. Just becuase I use a prong doesnt mean I'm abusive. Go preach to the kids blowing cats up, and get the hell off me. Well, while you people struggle with DA, fearful dogs ect, I'll be here enjoying all my dogs whose problems where fixed with a couple of corrections.

But what do I know, I'm sure you have trained MANY more dogs that I have.

Have a nice day :) .

[Lilavati]

Hrm . . . not to sound insolent or anything . . .but if you don't show dogs . . . why do you call yourself showdawgs? Why not . . K9stud or something?

[showdawgz]

Tell you what Showdawgs. If you have a problem with my posts, you can go to my profile and scroll to the "Add this person to my ignore list" and click.

No I rather read it, so I can see how ignorant and childish someone can be, and thank God I dont know anyone like that. It would drive me insane.

[showdawgz]

Hrm . . . not to sound insolent or anything . . .but if you don't show dogs . . . why do you call yourself showdawgs? Why not . . K9stud or something?

First I am not a stud, and secondly I can choose any name I want. I guess it was a mockery for actual showdogs. I'm not a fan of the conformation ring.

[ToscasMom]

But what do I know, I'm sure you have trained MANY more dogs that I have.
Yes we all know you are special. All we have to do is ask you.

[showdawgz]

Yes we all know you are special. All we have to do is ask you.

What??:confused: okie dokie then...:rolleyes:

[Dekka]

I dont show my dogs, dog shows do nothing for my breed. I train my dogs in CPP, French Ring, Schutzhund, ect and train/raise pups for the police department. I dont have time for useless agility and conformation shows.

I dont force my dog to do anything, they do it for two reasons
a) because they get a reward (more toy based)
b) because I asked that behavior from them, whether or not a reward is present.

Flooding? I have no idea what that is, but whatever

I'm getting a little tired of your ignorance, so have fun prancing around the agility ring, I have real dogs to train.

So you train, but don't show Shutzhund? Or anything else? And just so you know, I don't just do agility. But I do like it better than obedience, as I find obed very easy (yes my dogs are titled in obed)

Then why is your name ShowDawgs? Seems a little like false advertising to me. I do know people who train, and show in Shutz, and they seem much more knowledgeable than you do. When people say they don't beleive in showing, it always seems to be those that may have to much to lose, by putting thier money where their mouth is, so to speak.

The fact that you have no idea what flooding means scares me greatly. It simply underlines the fact you have no idea about training/behaviour. And its NOT a positive training term. The local e collar trainer, uses the term, frequently. (I know cause I talk to her.)

[ToscasMom]

The fact that you have no idea what flooding means scares me greatly. It simply underlines the fact you have no idea about training/behaviour. And its NOT a positive training term.
I guess on the internet you can be anything you want to be.

[showdawgz]

So you train, but don't show Shutzhund? Or anything else? And just so you know, I don't just do agility. But I do like it better than obedience, as I find obed very easy (yes my dogs are titled in obed)

Then why is your name ShowDawgs? Seems a little like false advertising to me. I do know people who train, and show in Shutz, and they seem much more knowledgeable than you do. When people say they don't beleive in showing, it always seems to be those that may have to much to lose, by putting thier money where their mouth is, so to speak.

The fact that you have no idea what flooding means scares me greatly. It simply underlines the fact you have no idea about training/behaviour. And its NOT a positive training term. The local e collar trainer, uses the term, frequently. (I know cause I talk to her.)

oohh Obedience...I'm scared now. Like I said before, my name is my decision, not yours. Have you seen GSD's in the show rings, my dogs would be laughed at.

I apologize for the "flooding" comment. I thought you were bringing up the "make a dog think its drowning" crap people keep bringing up. I use the word desensatizing or neutralization. My dogs must learn to adapt to my environment, but this starts at a young age so its not exactly "forcing" them to overcome any fear,because my dogs, know I'm there to protect them, from the time they are 8 weeks old.

Yes I do trial, but Schutzhund doesnt seem to interest me anymore. French Ring and Mondio are much more interesting to me. but I dont spend my whole life trialing, i prefer to just train and have fun with my dogs in my very limited free time.

[simplymisty]

Kayla - OMG, Duke looks EXACTLY like my Angel except her tail is more curly. Too funny. The other weird thing is she has some of the same issues. She's scared of things that aren't normal and will bark/lunge (while she's shaking).

I've been lucky that our life is pretty standard to where we don't have a lot of guests so she's not exposed to strangers very often. Even better for us/her is that this year we've had to travel a lot of out state and she's had to stay with my groomer/boarder and there she's exposed to many different dogs and people. She has an open door kind of thing and has a lot of guests (which Angel is usually really scared of men) and now just from being over there it's kind of fixed her problem.

Our true test was last night when my brother from out of state (who she'd never met) had to come into the house without us being home (I had him so scared that she would attack him - lol - but I really did have to warn him) and she actually warmed up to him within a matter of minutes. Before all her exposure this year it would take her months. One guy I dated last year for a good 4 months, she would growl and bark at him non-stop.

Sorry to ramble, thought it was funny that we have similar dogs. Not sure if what helped Angel will help Duke but just wanted to let you know what worked for us.

[Dekka]

Why would your dogs be laughed at? Can't they perform. Why would you be scared of obed. (its pretty easy, especially if you own a working bred dog)

[showdawgz]

Why would your dogs be laughed at? Can't they perform. Why would you be scared of obed. (its pretty easy, especially if you own a working bred dog)

I was referring to conformation. I used to do obedience, but its kinda boring after a while. I'm also doing flyball with my Dutch Shepherd. I prove my obedience in my other sports and everyday. My dogs perform just fine, thankyou ;) .

[Dekka]

I in no way was referring to conformation. You were the one who said you were scared. Flyball is easier than obed too, so that should be a piece of cake for you.

Mine perform fine too. But you were the one saying mine won't. I never said yours wouldn't perform. But you bash my training. At least I have the titles and credentials to back up what I claim. So far you haven't.

[showdawgz]

I in no way was referring to conformation. You were the one who said you were scared. Flyball is easier than obed too, so that should be a piece of cake for you.

Mine perform fine too. But you were the one saying mine won't. I never said yours wouldn't perform. But you bash my training. At least I have the titles and credentials to back up what I claim. So far you haven't.

I do flyball for fun, because my Dutchie needs an outlet. When did I say yours didnt perform? Bottom line my dogs have more important things to do than prance around a TINY obedience ring. Competition obedience is minimal to other obedience routines and keeping a dog controlled and obedient while in prey/defense/fight drive, now that is the true challenge and fun of it all.

Schutzhund/any personal protection titles (high titles/scores) are enough to deem a dog worthy of breeding, but having a AKC obedience title doesnt mean squat.

And who are you to me, exactly? What do I have to prove to you? Absolutely nothing seeing as you are nothing to me.

When you get a real dog, let me know, then we'll talk.

Goodbye, I have nothing else to say to you.

[ToscasMom]

Clean up in Aisle 5.

[houndlove]

Can someone please explain to me why it is always the schutzhund/protection/bitework wannabes who always cop this obnoxious belittling attitude on internet forums? Is this a testosterone thing? Is this about how your dogs can beat up our dogs? Because me and my rather large dogs are quaking in our boots over here. *eyeroll* Grow up.

It is so extremely off-putting and makes me never want to never get involved in any of the above sports or fields if this is what the people who participate in them are like.

[MelissaCato]

Can someone please explain to me why it is always the schutzhund/protection/bitework wannabes who always cop this obnoxious belittling attitude on internet forums?

Interesting, I see it as the other way around. :popcorn:

[houndlove]

Yeah, can't say that I've ever told someone they don't have a real dog becuase we don't participate in the same performance events. Nor implied that one kind of event is better than another. OR even ever said that someone else's training methods simply don't work (which I and others keep having to clarify repeatedly for some reason). Yet this person marches in here and does all of the above. It's really not a great advertisement for the sports he's so gangbusters about.

[MelissaCato]

Yet this person marches in here and does all of the above. It's really not a great advertisement for the sports he's so gangbusters about.


Well, they picked a good time to chime in, I couldn't help but laugh through it all. And so true in a forward way. Welcome to Chazzzzzzzz showdawgz. :D

[adojrts]

Well, they picked a good time to chime in, I couldn't help but laugh through it all. And so true in a forward way. Welcome to Chazzzzzzzz showdawgz. :D

Do you ever have anything of value to say?? And by the way, do the people who own the horses in your sig. know you are using the pics?

[MelissaCato]

Do you ever have anything of value to say?? And by the way, do the people who own the horses in your sig. know you are using the pics?

Ahhh Awe Hail and Fast Movin Finny yes, thanks. Do you have anything of value to say to me?

[Lilavati]

You know, I was thinking about doing Schutzhund, not with Sarama, but with a future dog. I'm reconsidering . . . frankly, I think the culture would be . . . off-putting.

[ACooper]

Lilavati........all people in Sch ARE NOT like that person! There are some people with dobes that I have chatted with and posted with and they are very nice genuine people with great dogs that ARE not mistreated :)

Don't be put off certain types that CLAIM to know what they are doing :)

[Doberluv]

Well.....all I've got to say (because I will no longer indulge in conversation with people who do not have an inkling about animal behavior) is...........I love this: "Clean up in aisle 5." Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love Tosacasmom!

[adojrts]

Ahhh Awe Hail and Fast Movin Finny yes, thanks. Do you have anything of value to say to me?

Absolutely not.

[Doberluv]

Absolutely not.

ROFLOL!!!

Hey, lets stop feeding the trolls, shall we?

[showdawgz]

Can someone please explain to me why it is always the schutzhund/protection/bitework wannabes who always cop this obnoxious belittling attitude on internet forums? Is this a testosterone thing? Is this about how your dogs can beat up our dogs? Because me and my rather large dogs are quaking in our boots over here. *eyeroll* Grow up.

It is so extremely off-putting and makes me never want to never get involved in any of the above sports or fields if this is what the people who participate in them are like.

Good, people like you would ruin my sport(s). I have no testosterone flowing through my body, at least I dont think. Last time I checked I was a girl. its a vicious world, in the protection field, you probably couldnt even last an hour at training.

Beat up your dogs? Wow, ok you believe what you want.

[showdawgz]

You know, I was thinking about doing Schutzhund, not with Sarama, but with a future dog. I'm reconsidering . . . frankly, I think the culture would be . . . off-putting.

I'm actually one of the nice ones, my mentor is a total dick. You will find alot of people who will "help" you but in reality if your dogs beats theirs, they want nothing more to do with you. And more and likely you'll have to use a...PRONG *gasp*. Maybe not in obedience, but in the beginning of defense drive work. Think you can handle it?? ;)

[showdawgz]

OR even ever said that someone else's training methods simply don't work (which I and others keep having to clarify repeatedly for some reason).


YOU ALL WERE THE ONES SAYING MY METHODS DID NOT WORK. I NEVER SAID YOUR METHODS DONT WORK, I SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT YOU ALL DO YOUR THING AND I'LL DO MINE.

[adojrts]

When you get a real dog, let me know, then we'll talk.

Goodbye, I have nothing else to say to you.

That is very interesting, because all of the working people of ring sport, Sch. or protection dogs, or hunters etc that I have met (met many) generally have respect for Jrts. Because jrts are tough little customers in a small package and to date have not been destroyed by the show ring. Especially those who know jrts as working (hunting) dogs. I know one chap who does k-9 work, competes a bit in Sch. for fun, and trains police dogs plus he is also a hunter. To quote him, 'It's a good thing that jrts are not a 100 lbs or we would all be in trouble, they are incrediable hunting dogs'.

Ya know, I was willing to at least read your opinions, even though we may not agree. But any respect goes out the window, when someone attacks someone else's breed of choice or their dog's.
In all the arguments that have gone around and around here, not once has anyone done an attack on someone else's dog's or breed EXCEPT for Richling and his followers. (unless I missed it but I don't think so)
Yes there have been attacks on method's, even towards people themselves on both sides but that is crossing a line.

[showdawgz]

I'm done, its seems mamma gave me a slap on the wrist for bad behavior (like I care, ROFLMAO). You people are hysterical. Nighty nighty yall :)

[MelissaCato]

In all the arguments that have gone around and around here, not once has anyone done an attack on someone else's dog's or breed EXCEPT for Richling and his followers.

..well I will assume your talking about me, because I think Koehler was a good dog trainer back in the days and one of the first training books I ever read. Tell me where I ever said my dogs are better? Just one post.
Honestly your the one telling me what I do and don't have. :rolleyes:

Actually on this forum it's the horses and the other forum it's the dogs, funny in a way. Blaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!

[showdawgz]

That is very interesting, because all of the working people of ring sport, Sch. or protection dogs, or hunters etc that I have met (met many) generally have respect for Jrts. Because jrts are tough little customers in a small package and to date have not been destroyed by the show ring. Especially those who know jrts as working (hunting) dogs. I know one chap who does k-9 work, competes a bit in Sch. for fun, and trains police dogs plus he is also a hunter. To quote him, 'It's a good thing that jrts are not a 100 lbs or we would all be in trouble, they are incrediable hunting dogs'.

Ya know, I was willing to at least read your opinions, even though we may not agree. But any respect goes out the window, when someone attacks someone else's breed of choice or their dog's.
In all the arguments that have gone around and around here, not once has anyone done an attack on someone else's dog's or breed EXCEPT for Richling and his followers. (unless I missed it but I don't think so)
Yes there have been attacks on method's, even towards people themselves on both sides but that is crossing a line.

I never attacked the breed. I dont have respect for most GSD's and that is my chosen breed. JRT's are good dogs, never doubted that. But prancing around an obedience ring means nothing to me. I give credit where credit is due, just because a dog is a GSD or Mali or Dutchie doesnt mean I respect em.

[adojrts]

..well I will assume your talking about me, because I think Koehler was a good dog trainer back in the days and one of the first training books I ever read. Tell me where I ever said my dogs are better? Just one post.
Honestly your the one telling me what I do and don't have. :rolleyes:

Actually on this forum it's the horses and the other forum it's the dogs, funny in a way. Blaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!


Nope wrong, I was referring to Richling himself and to Showdawgs. Those are the two that come to mind when I posted that.

[showdawgz]

Nope wrong, I was referring to Richling himself and to Showdawgs. Those are the two that come to mind when I posted that.

Interesting...As I've been very calm and respectful up till now. You obviously didnt read my post. She questioned my dogs ability and in return I questioned hers, nothing more to it than that.

[Doberluv]

My dog is better than all of your dogs. My dog can beat up all of your dogs. My dog is smarter than all of your dogs. And my Dad is better and can beat up all of your Dads too. So, hmph! Neener, neener, neener.:cool:

[Buddy'sParents]

Here ya go, Carrie:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/msnikkibelieves/Gifs/thnananaboosmiley.gif

[Kayla]

Before this thread gets terribly offtopic (though i think my failure to respond earlier may have set it off track) I just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. I will admit I do not know enough about detailed canine to truley make judgements on some harsher corrections.

That being said however I know my dog well enough to know he is an extremely "Soft" dog, in OB a slight negative tone in my voice was more then a suitable correction thus I would never be able to use some of the methods described simply as I know he would react negatively to them.

I do not agree that Duke does not respect me as his pack member and leader. I spend 10 hours a day with him ( mainly as he comes everywhere I do, parties, friends places etc). We do OB everyday and spend a huge portion of our time walking and sitting around outside.

Again excuse my extremely limited knowledge of detailed canine behaviour and training techniques beyond NILF but I don't believe reactivity is linked at least in Duke's case to a lack of respect/acknowledgment of my leadership but more in fact due to heritage and a combination of me simply not being able to socalize him past his own nervousness. Many may disagree with me but this is simply what I have noticed over the last 10 months of owning him.

Like I have said before I am an 18 year old student with limited income which at the moment does not have anything in the ball park of affording a behaviouralist. That being said I have been bringing my clicker out with us on every walk, practicing to death a solid emergancy down-stay and developing a rock hard watch me incase i should need it as well as clicking when he doesnt react to people while walking ( as he usually doesnt until we arent moving).

I believe it's to early in the process to see any results but if two levels of OB have taught me anything that Duke is an incrediablly quick learner and I do strongly believe that operant conditioning such as using a clicker can at least help a dog learn to not fear certain situations and I strongly hope with consistant work ( which is in truth the hardest part as I find the second we get out of an OB class I stop training on the side).

Either way if things don't improve in a few months i will have enough money to hire a behaviouralist at that point and go from there.

Ideally if I could find enough people willing to indulge some time I'd like to get them to walk about 20-30 ms away while we are sitting down in a park for a smoke like we usually do and then if he reacts get him to down stay, settle, click, treat get the person to walk 5 m closer, repeat. walk 5 ms closer, repeat. Until eventually they could get right up to Duke without him reacting and give him a treat as extra reinforcement.

The only problem is in reality it would be very hard to find someone Duke doesnt know well enough to react to, to actually give up there time to do such a thing. I could get a friend or someone to put a mask on just that he's so used to coming everywhere with me that he knows all of my friends that he would probably smell their scent when they got close and no longer react and thus not really reinforce the idea that actual strangers are NOT dangerous.

Sorry to make this so long, but regardless Duke is my companion, he's been there with me through a very dangerous relationship and physically saved me from him one night. I owe him my life and as such I don't care how many things I have to work through with him, or if I do have to save up for ahwile before I can bring him to a behaviouralist if it is nesicary as I love him and that's all it really comes down to in the end.

(p.s can we delete all of the non thread specific posts in this thread so that it stays relevant to the original topic incase new comers come to the thread as I think good arguments/points have been brought up in this thread even if I dont agree with some of the outlooks on some training techniques suggested).

[elegy]

Again excuse my extremely limited knowledge of detailed canine behaviour and training techniques beyond NILF but I don't believe reactivity is linked at least in Duke's case to a lack of respect/acknowledgment of my leadership but more in fact due to heritage and a combination of me simply not being able to socalize him past his own nervousness. Many may disagree with me but this is simply what I have noticed over the last 10 months of owning him.

no disagreement from me from what you've described. you might check out this book (http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB799). it may be helpful.

are you able to take him out anywhere that there are people but they are a distance away, set up shop with him, and click/treat him for calmness?

[Saintgirl]

Kayla, I 'm glad that you realize that your pup is a soft dog that would not benefit form aversive methods. I can't stress enough how well reinforcing an alternate conflicting behavior works. My boy is 190lbs, and I needed a solid fix, physically he is stronger tha me and we needed to have a mutual understanding on appropriate behaviors. Like I said before, he goes everywhere with me. The last event we attended was a fundraiser for our SPCA and there were nearly 200 dogs in attendence. Not once did he growl, show any sign of anxieties or stress instead he had a great time!! He even won a prize for being the biggest boy there! Positive reinforcement is a solid form of training...proven...period!

OMG...I am still laughing about the clean up in aisle 5!!! Tosca's mom, you are a riot!!!

And Doberluv, you are one smart woman! Rational discussions with people who understand and have taken the time to educate themselves in behavior modification are one thing- even if there are disagreements- but to feed the trolls when they obviously know nothing about canine behavior is another!!

[Doberluv]

Kayla...for someone who says they don't know much about canine behavior, I think you've hit the nail on the head all throughout your post. You have so much more insight than a lot of people. Sharp corrections or frequent corrections can shut a dog down. That's why the experts have come up with better ways to train.

I think if you go through a systematic approach, get the help of the books that were mentioned, find people to practice with, utilize a desensatization process, with distance (at first) being your tool and good timing, frequent reinforcement for calm behavior, you'll make headway.

If you can't afford a behaviorist, do try and get a few books; the one Elegy mentioned, Click to Calm and very importantly, (IMO) Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. That is an excellent book and one which will enhance your understanding of how dogs perceive things, how they learn, why they do the things they do. And why stern "corrections" are not in line with their understanding, cognitive abilities, their culture and values as much as they are in line with our own human projections, which are all too sadly common with people who do not understand canine behavior.

Do let us know of any progress you make. Best wishes.

Edit: Saintgirl....sorry, missed your last post while I was typing. Thanks!:)

[eley@peoplepc.com]

Let me start by saying I only read the First post of this thread, so this may have already been said, but here I go. I also have a leash reactive dog, he lunges and barks at dogs whenenver one comes into sight.

Over the last 10 or so months we have been working on it and actually seeing some results. We consulted a behaviourist, read a bunch of forums like this one, and read a couple of books. So here's the condensed version of what I've learned.

Baby steps, if your dog's threshold is 20 feet, work with him at that distance from a distraction until it no longer is a distraction, then try 15 feet, if it doesn't work, go back to 20 then try 18 and so on. The point is DON'T rush it. Think of it this way, the slower the progress the more solid it will be.

Watch me, it sounds to me like you have already done a lot of work in this field. Getting your dog's attention, specially when he/she is reactive is WAY harder than anyone will tell you, just keep working on it. If treats work for you, trust me, you're lucky, at one point my dog would ignore a rib eye steak if there was another dog around. I had to work on it for a while before i could get him to eat a stupid treat when there was a distraction around.

Don't yell, don't say no, don't give him a command unless you're possitive he'll comply, don't wrestle, just manage while he's throwing a fit. The INSTANT he calms down praise/treat/show him you're pleased, sometimes they will only calm down for an instant to catch their breath, you have to be FAST.

There's two GREAT books about his, Click to calm and Scaredy Dog. The therapy plan the behaviourist outlined for us is a combination of those two books and some other sutff of her own, please feel free to email me if you want more details (there's a lot).

Whatever you do, do not try to correct the lunging/barking/annoying behaviour, it'll only backfire (boy would I know). This sort of problem is best erradicated by teaching the dog to do something conflicting with the bahaviour instead of teaching then NOT to do it.

[heartdogs]

Let me start by saying I only read the First post of this thread, so this may have already been said, but here I go. I also have a leash reactive dog, he lunges and barks at dogs whenenver one comes into sight.

Over the last 10 or so months we have been working on it and actually seeing some results. We consulted a behaviourist, read a bunch of forums like this one, and read a couple of books. So here's the condensed version of what I've learned.

Baby steps, if your dog's threshold is 20 feet, work with him at that distance from a distraction until it no longer is a distraction, then try 15 feet, if it doesn't work, go back to 20 then try 18 and so on. The point is DON'T rush it. Think of it this way, the slower the progress the more solid it will be.

Watch me, it sounds to me like you have already done a lot of work in this field. Getting your dog's attention, specially when he/she is reactive is WAY harder than anyone will tell you, just keep working on it. If treats work for you, trust me, you're lucky, at one point my dog would ignore a rib eye steak if there was another dog around. I had to work on it for a while before i could get him to eat a stupid treat when there was a distraction around.

Don't yell, don't say no, don't give him a command unless you're possitive he'll comply, don't wrestle, just manage while he's throwing a fit. The INSTANT he calms down praise/treat/show him you're pleased, sometimes they will only calm down for an instant to catch their breath, you have to be FAST.

There's two GREAT books about his, Click to calm and Scaredy Dog. The therapy plan the behaviourist outlined for us is a combination of those two books and some other sutff of her own, please feel free to email me if you want more details (there's a lot).

Whatever you do, do not try to correct the lunging/barking/annoying behaviour, it'll only backfire (boy would I know). This sort of problem is best erradicated by teaching the dog to do something conflicting with the bahaviour instead of teaching then NOT to do it.

I, too, want to congratulate you for realizing that you have a soft dog. In fact, probably 80% of this type of aggression is rooted in fear or anxiety, which can be made much worse if you use punitive methods or some of the other suggestions made earlier in the thread by people who have no respect for things like agility and obedience. Truthfully, I found obedience as a competitive sport just as boring as my dogs did, but they light up for agility, tricks, tracking, and other things. But, that doesn't mean that I would slam anyone with a well trained dog for participating, or for showing in the breed ring, or any other dog sport. To each his own. But, the macho attitude displayed by those unenlightened souls who think that only a protection dog is a *real* dog is appalling, and not at all in line with what modern trainers are all about. Progressive people evaluate a new method objectively before coming to any conclusions about its use. I have yet to meet one of the "schutzhund trolls" who has actually done that - they seem to just stick to the same old same old. Sure, it works, but progressive dog-friendly training works, too. Thankfully, some protection and police trainers "get it". People like Steve White, for one. He has over 32 years experience training cop dogs, but is now using clicker training. Why? Because he investigated it (good cop) and found that it works - it's solid science. And, he is not so set in his ways that he isn't always looking for a way to make things safer for his cops, and better for his dogs. Eley's advice is good advice.

[Doberluv]

I, too, want to congratulate you for realizing that you have a soft dog. In fact, probably 80% of this type of aggression is rooted in fear or anxiety, which can be made much worse if you use punitive methods or some of the other suggestions made earlier in the thread by people who have no respect for things like agility and obedience. Truthfully, I found obedience as a competitive sport just as boring as my dogs did, but they light up for agility, tricks, tracking, and other things. But, that doesn't mean that I would slam anyone with a well trained dog for participating, or for showing in the breed ring, or any other dog sport. To each his own. But, the macho attitude displayed by those unenlightened souls who think that only a protection dog is a *real* dog is appalling, and not at all in line with what modern trainers are all about. Progressive people evaluate a new method objectively before coming to any conclusions about its use. I have yet to meet one of the "schutzhund trolls" who has actually done that - they seem to just stick to the same old same old. Sure, it works, but progressive dog-friendly training works, too. Thankfully, some protection and police trainers "get it". People like Steve White, for one. He has over 32 years experience training cop dogs, but is now using clicker training. Why? Because he investigated it (good cop) and found that it works - it's solid science. And, he is not so set in his ways that he isn't always looking for a way to make things safer for his cops, and better for his dogs. Eley's advice is good advice.:hail: :hail:

The only thing I would disagree with is that "it" (stern punishment) doesn't work. It may appear to work because it is supressing the "symptom." It is not making the dog OK with the other dogs or whatever it is he's reacting to. There are all kinds of undesireable side effects of stern aversives which behaviorists...people who know behavior, know dogs and their body language, their signals etc... know about. So, I guess what some people accept as good enough and what they call "working," ("it works.") isn't the same or enough for the vast majority of trainers and enlightened dog owners today. For me, just stopping the behavior isn't the end all, in other words. There's more to it than that.

[VWilson]

:lol-sign: :lol-sign: :lol-sign: :lol-sign:

[Purdue#1]

My dog is better than all of your dogs. My dog can beat up all of your dogs. My dog is smarter than all of your dogs. And my Dad is better and can beat up all of your Dads too. So, hmph! Neener, neener, neener.:cool:



http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q252/ExtremeReader/play-2.jpg
very doubtful.

[ToscasMom]

Oooooooo look at the loving pets! I want my dog to be just like that all the time!

[Herschel]

I think Purdue gets picked on in school.

[Purdue#1]

nope. lots of friends and awards, espically FFA. Honor roll. never in trouble. My friends are not into all this dog stuff, but they listen.

[Purdue#1]

oh and doberlov...


Richling says Hi.

[adojrts]

What is the point of that photo?? It's either a pic of two dogs playing and it looks like they are fighting or....
your into dog fighting???
As per usually Prudue, you have missed the mark again. By the way I see you conveniently DIDN'T awswer my direct question to you on the other thread about YOUR worldly experience as a dog rescuer. Care to do that now??

[Dekka]

Purdue..dog fighting is wrong, and if the training you are doing is creating this issue, then you really need to relook at your methods.

[ron]

Flooding? I have no idea what that is, but whatever


I'm not a certified dog trainer. But I know what flooding is. It is the intentional exposure of the animal to an stimulus that upsetting with the idea that massive constant exposure will basically burn out the fear that they have. It's hit and miss, as a method. In the hands of an uneducated person, it will be a large miss, totally ineffective and likely to cause other problems.

ETA: I could swear I read somewhere that flooding as a technique doesn't work as well as some would like it to. It is far better to train for calmness and attentiveness at a distance beyond the range of reactivity and slowly work the range down to nothing. The idea is to change the meaning of the stimulus from one of fear to one of reward, or at least, ho hum, what's next.

[Purdue#1]

Everyone wants answers from people with more degrees than a thermometer so i guess my answer would be worth nothing.

[happyhound]

Everyone wants answers from people with more degrees than a thermometer so i guess my answer would be worth nothing.

Nice little zinger there.

You come off as a very 'better than thou' type as a Richling follower -- that is probably why people aren't listening. That and your obvious (as demonstrated from multiple posts of yours) lack of experience and blatant fabrications.

[Zoom]

No, Purdue, the reason no one is listening to you is because you never actually have any advice to give or anything that says you're not just parroting words said to you that day without any idea if they actually pertain to the situation. The only degree I have is in English/Creative Writing, but I've been working with dogs day in and day out for over 2 years now, garnering real-world experience that allows me to be a fairly knowledgable source when it comes to training. You, however, have been attending a class for about a month now. There's not a whole lot of credibility to that. So take that and combine it with your attitude and THAT'S why people aren't listening to you.

[Purdue#1]

i've been around dogs all my life. i've given you websites to visit. I don't know what other information you want me to give you. Every time i give you information you go off on it so there is not reason for me to give information when all it gets is shot down. you ban people that don't agree with your methods, and have no intentions of learning about a new way of training when it can save a dog's life. Richling has worked with dogs for well over 20 years and all you wanted to do was shoot down every answer he gave. Am i reading too much into that?

If i wouldn't have gotten into all these positive-reinforcement methods sly would have been corrected long ago, but i guess things happen for a reason. If sly wouldn't have become aggressive we wouldn't have paid that much money for training, but it is worth much more. My dad, the dogs, and i can't wait to go to training and work on the agility course, or track us down, or even protect us in protection work. They are happy that i have taken the role as master. Everyone marvels and complements us on how well behaved our dogs are. 40 kids can be running by(its happened) and they will not break the stay i have them in. we work them when our band is practicing. Loud drums sounding. Flags twirling. people going to pet sly when i am 30ft. away and he doesn't break. Then when i release sly from his stay he get lots of praise and petting. no treats, balls, etc. Bribery is bribery no matter how or when you use it to me.

You say when the dog is doing the command you phase out the treats. the dog never knows when the treats will come so he keeps doing the command, but them you still give him treats every once in a while to "tune up" the dog and keep him doing the command because after a while of ot doing the command and not getting treats the dog will stop doing the command given. so you are never phasing out the treats totally. sorry, but i'm not depending on treats the whole life of my dog.

another thing is about corrections. you say that we are wrong about the fact that you all never use corrections and then in another post you say you NEVER use corrections EVER. you don't even call them corrections. you call them "aversives." Can you not say the word "correction"? Are you that scared to use it?

[showdawgz]

It is far better to train for calmness

Maybe thats the difference, i dont train for "calmness". I dont want my dogs "calm". I ENCOURAGE jumping, barking, and other "normal" pet issues.

When you increase a dogs drive (drive building) you have to
a) realize that dogs in high drive are not going listen to your begging
b) there will be a period in that dogs life (the early stages of drive building) that you are not going to have full control over that dog (in fact too much obedience training/control will diminish drive) and for that period a prong collar will help keep some kind of control without yelling and forcing the dog to follow a command (self correction is a wonderful thing)
c) know your dog is going to need a wake up call here and there throughout training, because a high drive dog is so focused on whatever their object of attraction might be they will be in their own little world.

Drive is a great thing and it can be manipulated to fit your training and your goals. But in order to maintain drive in a puppy/young adult you have to sacrifice a little. But eventually when the dog is confident enough and has sufficient drive you will need to gain control over this dog before more intensive training begins. A dog you worked consecutively with building drive is not going to out of the blue just listen when you say "sit" after months of training and making the dog focus on nothing but the prey item, thats where the wakeup call comes in. And when a dog (whose confidence has been built up) is in drive a prong is going to do nothing more than get the dogs attention. By now, you are way beyond the point of losing drive because if everything is done correctly you know have a dog who knows their the shyt and are more mature. Corrections are necessary to gain control when it is time to add obedience to the bitework routine.

[Purdue#1]

i understand your thinking showdawgz. It makes alot of sense. good post. when you are also building drive do you also work on obedience commands like before or after drive building so when you start applying them when they are more mature they understand the command given? i figured yes, but wasn't sure.:o


sly finally bit in protection.:D All praise and drive building as you call it. very fun. Mickey is coming out of her shell barking at the decoy and going at the end of the chain. I couldn't be happier.

[smkie]

No you dont have to sacrifice a thing. A good hunting dog MUST have control of himself at all times or he is a risk to himself and the people he is with. I would never encourage that kind of behavior and find it grievious that anyone would. Prey drive will not be diminished one bit by behaving, quite the contrary. A dog IS smart enough to understand both worlds and move easily from one to the other.
and you shouldn't beg, you should lead. IF your begging your in the wrong place in your dog's life. Drive is lost when it is no longer fun....my old boss had one rule for building drive, always leave them wanting more. Quit while the going is good. Dont burn them out. Obedience is a whole different kettle of fish.

[elegy]

Maybe thats the difference, i dont train for "calmness". I dont want my dogs "calm". I ENCOURAGE jumping, barking, and other "normal" pet issues.

but you're also not working to desensitize an excessively reactive dog, which makes a huge difference.

[Purdue#1]

but later in training she is teaching the dog control.

[smkie]

control should come first and foremost. Desire is easy. THey are born with an infinite amount of that and building on this is easy as pie. Make it fun, keep it short. Control on the other hand takes practice and the never give a command you don't enforce rule. THat too has to be kept fun, the reward...the thing they want the most they have the desire for. You work BOTH together at the same time. For a retriever puppy the basics followed by three retrieves...stop right there. Repeat later. Letting the retrieving part become the reward and allowing those lessons to build..a little further, a long single to doubles to triples, add water, it doesnt' matter what you do as long as it is fresh and not boring. People bore their dogs way to much. That is the total kill of desire. If you cannot recall your dog even if he is on the way to his "prey" your dog is not trained. He's not even out of first grade.He should never forget where you are, and that you call the shots. If not, you take the chance of losing him, getting him shot or hit, the ultimate high of his life should be making you proud. He learned to make you proud when you taught him sit down stay..heel loose leashed, not to bolt at loud sounds or sudden movements because as long as he is with you those things dont matter and to have good manners. I have never ever had a dog lunge at anything nor would i tolerate it for one second. HE goes when i say he can go. IF he wants to sit there and vibrate fine, his muslces can quiver all they want, but that is where it stops. His desire isn't going to melt into the dust. IT will remain contained, packed down and ready to go. A dog must learn control or he is a danger to himself and others. Once you have achieved that status in your dog's eyes you can take him to the moon and back. I don't believe in treats as well. Praise is all a dog needs from the get go. The reward is in doing right and the promise of great fun and that makes them feel great about themselves and it makes you feel like you can walk on clouds.

[Dekka]

I have some high drive/ reactive dogs. And yup, with a high drive dog, desire is the easy part. Esp if you don't squash the desire with P+. Control is trickier.

And Purdue..you have never been to a good positive trainer. Yours sucked, esp since you seem to thing its all about treats and no consequences. Your dog didn't become dog aggressive because of positive training. That is laughable. Even good P+ would laugh at that. Your dog didn't listen because there was no structure, it was all bribing, and no consequences. That is not positive training, that is just silly. But you seem to think, since you experienced that, that all positive trainer are like that. That I can say, with out a single doubt, isn't true.

Most of the people I know rehabbing abused dogs, and then winning in the ring (and living happily with them) used positive methods. No P+(which does not mean no consequences)

One of the reasons some of us don't listen, is because we have been there. I trained with good trainers using P+. It worked. But what I am doing now works better, is safer, and I just like having a thinking dog. In the real world I want a partner, not a slave. But this is just me, some people like slaves.

[houndlove]

See, this thread is about a pet dog, not a performance dog, having serious reactivity issues in public places. Schutzhund training in drive really does not have utility for the problem the OP described.

[Xerxes]

See, this thread is about a pet dog, not a performance dog, having serious reactivity issues in public places. Schutzhund training in drive really does not have utility for the problem the OP described.

I just read this entire thread and was completely baffled by the tangent towards ringsport and other performance types of training.

The OP is asking for help in keeping her companion dog from reactive behavior in a public setting, not asking for opinions on why one method of training is "superior" to another.

To the OP: The desensitization routine takes time and patience. I've been there and I know exactly how it feels. My reactive girl was a rescue that had more issues than just leash reactivity, with careful management and work on desensitization your dog will respond well. There has been alot of good advice given on this thread, unfortunately there has been alot of static as well.

I agree that your dog should see you as a leader, but in my opinion, your leadership role should be one of the provider and protector-not as the punisher. With softer dogs this often works wonders in short periods of time. But in the event that it takes a longer amount of time, do not get discouraged. Sometimes your measurement of improvement will be in inches, not feet-again celebrate that improvement. There will also be days when something unexpected happens and sets your training back a few steps.

Be patient, be consistent and think positive thoughts. Dogs look more readily to a calm, consistent leader than they do to a leader that isn't these things.

Best of luck to you, and if you don't feel comfortable posting your good days or your bad-feel free to PM me.

[Dekka]

See, this thread is about a pet dog, not a performance dog, having serious reactivity issues in public places. Schutzhund training in drive really does not have utility for the problem the OP described.

This is very true, and I think the OP has been answered earlier in this thread. (and has shown a good understanding of dog behaviour) But like most conversations (and threads on chaz) they move, and expand.

[LB2007]

mine is doing that and he is 20 weeks, it is so embarassing

[Momof2Pups]

I third that Bones Would Rain from The Sky by Suzanne Clothier would be an excellent book for you to read. :) It's on Amazon, that's where I got it.

[showdawgz]

control should come first and foremost. Desire is easy. THey are born with an infinite amount of that and building on this is easy as pie. Make it fun, keep it short. Control on the other hand takes practice and the never give a command you don't enforce rule. THat too has to be kept fun, the reward...the thing they want the most they have the desire for. You work BOTH together at the same time. For a retriever puppy the basics followed by three retrieves...stop right there. Repeat later. Letting the retrieving part become the reward and allowing those lessons to build..a little further, a long single to doubles to triples, add water, it doesnt' matter what you do as long as it is fresh and not boring. People bore their dogs way to much. That is the total kill of desire. If you cannot recall your dog even if he is on the way to his "prey" your dog is not trained. He's not even out of first grade.He should never forget where you are, and that you call the shots. If not, you take the chance of losing him, getting him shot or hit, the ultimate high of his life should be making you proud. He learned to make you proud when you taught him sit down stay..heel loose leashed, not to bolt at loud sounds or sudden movements because as long as he is with you those things dont matter and to have good manners. I have never ever had a dog lunge at anything nor would i tolerate it for one second. HE goes when i say he can go. IF he wants to sit there and vibrate fine, his muslces can quiver all they want, but that is where it stops. His desire isn't going to melt into the dust. IT will remain contained, packed down and ready to go. A dog must learn control or he is a danger to himself and others. Once you have achieved that status in your dog's eyes you can take him to the moon and back. I don't believe in treats as well. Praise is all a dog needs from the get go. The reward is in doing right and the promise of great fun and that makes them feel great about themselves and it makes you feel like you can walk on clouds.

That is a usual response from someone who knows nothing about building drive, grip and focus. Most inexperienced people say "a dog should never begin any forms of protection training without having a solid obedience foundation" when in fact anyone who knows anything about building drive will tell you that too much obedience/control on a young dog will not show enough prey drive to start protection training and then you have a dog that is thrown straight into defense potentially causing an unstable dog.

You cannot expect a dog who has never gone through drive building to exibit their maximum drive potential if forced to sit and wait for their prey item. I start obedience training with my dogs as soon as I get them (and all of it is done through positive methods and everything is a game), but to call out sit or down while my dog is jumping barking and desperately trying to get the prey item is going to be ineffective and a waste of my time.

For the beginning months of drive building you do sacrifice, control and accuracy. Eventually control is regained once the dog reaches the level of drive you want see.

[showdawgz]

but you're also not working to desensitize an excessively reactive dog, which makes a huge difference.

Actually I am working on desensitizing one of my dogs at the moment. He's extremely leash reactive/dog reactive (at times)and has lunged out in the past. With some focus work he's getting alot better, and ignores most dogs (he'll still let out a bark or growl at certain dogs, but has improved alot). My dog doesnt have to like dogs or people for that matter but they will ignore them and will not display any forms of agression.

[showdawgz]

i understand your thinking showdawgz. It makes alot of sense. good post. when you are also building drive do you also work on obedience commands like before or after drive building so when you start applying them when they are more mature they understand the command given? i figured yes, but wasn't sure.:o


sly finally bit in protection.:D All praise and drive building as you call it. very fun. Mickey is coming out of her shell barking at the decoy and going at the end of the chain. I couldn't be happier.

Yes, you train obedience commands before drive building. Everything prior to drive building is a game. You dont want to correct a puppy or young adult and put too much control on them. You manipulate their environment so they cant make mistakes, everything for them has to be fun, no stressing or correcting behaviors you will need in the future.

[Zoom]

That is a usual response from someone who knows nothing about building drive, grip and focus.

I guess Smkie imagined the hundreds of Field Trial championships her dogs won then...knowing nothing about building drive, grip and focus after all. :rolleyes:

Are you guys so stonewalled that you cannot see when someone is half-way agreeing with you, yet providing a different angle to the same end?

[showdawgz]

I have some high drive/ reactive dogs. And yup, with a high drive dog, desire is the easy part. Esp if you don't squash the desire with P+. Control is trickier.




So you do drive building, huh? All dogs have some level prey drive, but how often do you work to increase their drive? Drive building isn't jsut throwing a ball around or toy. Or using the toy or food to get what you want from the dog. Its trickier than you think.

You will see that most trainers who plan on doing drive work do not believe in correcting puppies/young adults. When corrections are introduced the dog is already very confident (through drive building) so the corrections usually will not affect the older more mature dog.

[Zoom]

Let me ask the prong collar crowd this. Your biggest beef with +R seems to be hinged on the fact that you believe that our dogs are forever reliant on treats, despite our statements to the contrary. Well, let me ask you the same thing. Can you expect the same level of control out of your dog if you don't have your collars on? I see just as many dogs/people forever tied to their prong collar/choke chains as you do people with treats. There are just as many dogs out there that suddenly go deaf and dumb without a collar on...pop one on and sudden they are the world's best behaved dogs. Sorry, to me, that is not a fully trained dog. That is a dog that has figured out when they do and do not have to behave based on the presence of an object, the same gripe that the +P crowd has with the +R crowd.

In the end, it all comes down to the amount of work one is willing to put into their dog. The methods vary and rightly so, but consistancy and goals are key to both camps.

[showdawgz]

I guess Smkie imagined the hundreds of Field Trial championships her dogs won then...knowing nothing about building drive, grip and focus after all. :rolleyes:

Are you guys so stonewalled that you cannot see when someone is half-way agreeing with you, yet providing a different angle to the same end?

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.

[Dekka]

So you do drive building, huh? All dogs have some level prey drive, but how often do you work to increase their drive? Drive building isn't jsut throwing a ball around or toy. Or using the toy or food to get what you want from the dog. Its trickier than you think.

You will see that most trainers who plan on doing drive work do not believe in correcting puppies/young adults. When corrections are introduced the dog is already very confident (through drive building) so the corrections usually will not affect the older more mature dog.

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)

And training in drive, isn't a concept kept to the schutzhund type trainers/dogs.

[showdawgz]

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)

And training in drive, isn't a concept kept to the schutzhund type trainers/dogs.

No, its not training in drive. Everyone trains/teaches in drive (with toys or treats). Building drive is completely different. The goal is not to get the dog to sit or down, its to bring up that desire to pocess the prey item (and by prey I am refferring to ball on a string or tug or rag, maybe better understood as play drive). You want the dog to do everything in its power to get the item. That includes, jumping barking ect, things that will be important in more advanced training. You cant have a pp dog who is scared to jump or has been discouraged to bark. My young dogs arent out of control, but they are allowed to be a pup and grow up, no corrections no discouraging of behaviors.

I honestly have no idea why we are arguing. :confused:

[Zoom]

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.


So don't give blanket blow-off criticism if you don't know what goes on in the training. And this statement Unless we are working towards the same goal, then our opinions and training cannot be compared. should really really REALLY be kept at the forefront of everyone's minds when talking about training!!!!!!

[showdawgz]

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)



Yes, it does sound silly, I meant corrections will not affect their drive once they are more confident. I really dont use corrections as much as most of you all think. The only times I do use corrections is when my dog exibits agression (this does not include growling), that isnt caused by fear. And when my dog is in drive and has not learned how to out properly or to get its attention. Other than that my dogs are free, freer than most dogs. And they are all happy, as hard as it may seem to you all.

I will say this one last time, just because you do use some form of correction in certain situations does not mean that is your basis of training. Doesnt mean your 100% pro koehler.

[showdawgz]

So don't give blanket blow-off criticism if you don't know what goes on in the training. And this statement should really really REALLY be kept at the forefront of everyone's minds when talking about training!!!!!!

I didnt critisize anyone, Smkie obviously knows nothing about my training, as I know nothing about hers, its all mutual. But yall know everything about my training, right? And can deem my opinions (from my training) wrong from the get-go without understanding where I'm coming from.

The only reason I bring up my protection training is to defend my views, that are always always ALWAYS ridiculed by people who are supposedly training gods who allow their dogs to lung out in public, display agression, and have out of control dogs. Just because I believe what I do, does not make my opinion wrong or invalid.

I never offered any advice on this thread, I simply said that the beating a dog Richling crap was getting played out. And making assumptions about someone just because they do use some form of correction does not mean you can lump them in the strickly koehler group and assume they do not use some form of positive reinforcements. With one single comment about the maturity of a statement, I was attacked and ridiculed. And continued to post, in attempt to defend myself.

[Buddy'sParents]

The only reason I bring up my protection training is to defend my views, that are always always ALWAYS ridiculed by people who are supposedly training gods who allow their dogs to lung out in public, display agression, and have out of control dogs. Just because I believe what I do, does not make my opinion wrong or invalid.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Big assumptions on your behalf.

Sounds like you've encountered some shady dog-owning people in your life.

But don't come here and accuse those who use positive methods of having dogs who are allowed to lunge in public, display aggression and act out of control. This is the problem- you're not taking the time to acknowledge who the trainers here are and what they believe and what they have known and experienced to actually work.

So you do what you do and it works for you. These people who post do what they do and it works for them. They don't agree with abusive training methods on dogs. End of story. You don't have to like them disagreeing with you, but don't call them wrong because they don't see the pot of gold at the end of your rainbow.

[Renee750il]

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.

What you've said here would seem to indicate that training hunting dogs takes MORE control and will and discipline . . .

[Purdue#1]

Let me ask the prong collar crowd this. Your biggest beef with +R seems to be hinged on the fact that you believe that our dogs are forever reliant on treats, despite our statements to the contrary. Well, let me ask you the same thing. Can you expect the same level of control out of your dog if you don't have your collars on? I see just as many dogs/people forever tied to their prong collar/choke chains as you do people with treats. There are just as many dogs out there that suddenly go deaf and dumb without a collar on...pop one on and sudden they are the world's best behaved dogs. Sorry, to me, that is not a fully trained dog. That is a dog that has figured out when they do and do not have to behave based on the presence of an object, the same gripe that the +P crowd has with the +R crowd.

In the end, it all comes down to the amount of work one is willing to put into their dog. The methods vary and rightly so, but consistancy and goals are key to both camps.


we are working on getting sly and mickey off their leash and collar all together so they will never need one for the rest of their lives.

[showdawgz]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Big assumptions on your behalf.

Sounds like you've encountered some shady dog-owning people in your life.

But don't come here and accuse those who use positive methods of having dogs who are allowed to lunge in public, display aggression and act out of control. This is the problem- you're not taking the time to acknowledge who the trainers here are and what they believe and what they have known and experienced to actually work.

So you do what you do and it works for you. These people who post do what they do and it works for them. They don't agree with abusive training methods on dogs. End of story. You don't have to like them disagreeing with you, but don't call them wrong because they don't see the pot of gold at the end of your rainbow.


Really? last time I checked allowing a dog to lung and snarl at another dog is displaying agression *cough* Doberluv *cough*.

[showdawgz]

What you've said here would seem to indicate that training hunting dogs takes MORE control and will and discipline . . .

Whats your point? Smkie training is completely different than mines, and these dogs need control from the beginning, whereas mine dont because I am able to restrain them during the begining of their training. And that is why Smkie and I have differing opinions. That was my whole point. Funny, you all are getting so wound up, you seem to miss the points we do agree on.

[Momof2Pups]

Not that it's really your business, but knowing her, she would be working on it, whether or not it has the instant quick-fix some trainers crave so much.
It's sad that there are are so many enormous misconceptions about positive training. Like we've said before that always fell on deaf ears, positive does not mean permissive. It doesn't depend on treats (some +R trainers don't even use treats for training!), it doesn't mean that positively trained dogs are allowed to do anything they want, and many other idiotic assumptions. Then the same people say "I tried it but it didn't work." You know why? Because they had no clue what they were doing!

[adojrts]

lol to muddy the waters just a bit more..........
For competitive agility, building drive in a pup/dog is paramount. And although it doesn't compare to protection work, it is similiar. We want the confidence, we want them wanting that tug so bad they are almost coming out of their skin. We also don't do anything to lessen that. Although, most people with their first agility dog, don't understand this and wouldn't tolerate a trainer keeping them from 'running agility'. If a pup/dog has to much control in the beginning of agility, you often lose speed and drive. Many of the top trainers will spend 15 months of drive building and focus, with limited obedience, THEN they start training for agility. For us we have to find that perfect balance.

lol as I said, just adding a bit of mud :)

[Purdue#1]

doberlov said she acts like its no big problem when he throws one of his fits. That's ignoring bad behavior. not correcting in my book.

[Momof2Pups]

I don't know her method in that situation, but what would a correction do to a riled up dog? Aggressive reactons might make the dog feel more nervous and more uncomfortable, and get even more spastic and disconnected from what she wants him to do. How does that get to the ROOT of the problem? It won't do much good to their relationship, either.
What correction would you use if your dog wasn't listening to you and was behaving aggressive on leash?

[Purdue#1]

if he is being aggressive on his leash to humans or other dogs then he should be given a severe correction. It would clear up the dog's "problem" in a few sessions like VWilson said.

[Momof2Pups]

Wow, that's sad. You don't care about the dog's feelings, why that behavior came about, or the fact that you can work through it without physically harming a dog. But that was predictable because it takes more skill and effort.

[houndlove]

Before we began our recent training, when my dog would start to react adversely, I would turn around and go the other way and get out of there because at that moment is not the time to train. The time to train is at the point right before they react when they can actually still learn. A dog who is so fearful of the stimuli that they put on that reactive show is not a dog who is ready to learn anything at that moment. That would be like trying to teach algebra to someone afraid of heights from the top of the empire state buidling.

I'm very pleased to say that after about 6 weeks of daily training, Conrad is coming along just amazingly. We had really a perfect storm of what normally would have set him off today--a large fluffly dog (a golden retriever) appearing pretty much out of nowhere from behind a bush and then going ballistic from behind a fence just a couple feet from where we were walking. But now that we've been working on this, instead of freaking out, Conrad startled initially (his nerves will never be made of steel and frankly the golden came so out of nowhere that I kind of jumped too), then looked to me as I gave him his cue to give me attention and we trotted right on past. When we got by, I rewarded him with praise and a tiny little morsel (we're still in training, he still needs occasional food rewards) and asked for his attention again (his "before" behavior in these situations was to turn around and nearly walk backwards so he could continue to keep his eye on whatever it was that had scared him) and off we went, with no looking back, no negative reaction, no lunging, pulling, snarling, growling of any kind. That is the power of positive dog training right there.

[Momof2Pups]

*applause* houndlove :)

[houndlove]

It's Conrad that deserves the round. He had a rough start to his life and he's just been working for me like a champ on his issues. We put them on the back burner for a while because in every other way he's just the perfect dog (um, except for the raging SA, but that's managed quite well), but I decided this year it's time. It's not fair to him to not help him with his fears. I just wish I had done it sooner. Something seems to really have clicked with him in about the last week or so. I just couldn't be happier.

[Momof2Pups]

That's fantastic! What a good boy! I love making those wonderful breakthroughs.
(At least some of the credit is due to the trainer, though ;))

[showdawgz]

lol to muddy the waters just a bit more..........
For competitive agility, building drive in a pup/dog is paramount. And although it doesn't compare to protection work, it is similiar. We want the confidence, we want them wanting that tug so bad they are almost coming out of their skin. We also don't do anything to lessen that. Although, most people with their first agility dog, don't understand this and wouldn't tolerate a trainer keeping them from 'running agility'. If a pup/dog has to much control in the beginning of agility, you often lose speed and drive. Many of the top trainers will spend 15 months of drive building and focus, with limited obedience, THEN they start training for agility. For us we have to find that perfect balance.

lol as I said, just adding a bit of mud :)

Bottom line, we both agree that too much control diminishes drive.

[showdawgz]

I don't know her method in that situation, but what would a correction do to a riled up dog? Aggressive reactons might make the dog feel more nervous and more uncomfortable, and get even more spastic and disconnected from what she wants him to do. How does that get to the ROOT of the problem? It won't do much good to their relationship, either.
What correction would you use if your dog wasn't listening to you and was behaving aggressive on leash?

It depends on the type of agression. If it is fear based a correction would increase the stress and anxiety in a dog, creating even more issues but otherwise a good correction can work wonders. As long as the dog is not fearful at whatever is making them agressive, there is no root, that is only the dog making decisions for itself, instead of accepting your leadership.

[Purdue#1]

i agree showdawgs.

[Momof2Pups]

How would you work with a fearful dog, Purdue?

[Purdue#1]

but even if it is fear based a correction would work. you have to overwhelm the dog with the correction. It has to override what they are doing that is bad. for example, sly's aggression was fear based. he would go to the end of his leash and bark and lunge at other dogs, constantly stressed over their presence because he didn't know to act around them, but a good correction stopped all that. He now can have a dog walk under his nose and will not pay any attention to them. no fear. no worries. he pays no attention to them.

[Dekka]

So you shut your dog down, suppressed the fear, but didn't cure it. Your dog has internalized his fear, not gotten over it. If a child is terrified of snakes, and freaks out over them, and the parent physically corrects the child. The child may no longer manifest his fear of snakes (the fear of correction is more immediate and real) but the child is still afraid, even if he may learn that he must look happy (but if you can read body language, in children, or dogs, you will see the truth) to keep his parents happy. But you can never over come fear, through more fear.

[Purdue#1]

ignore the dog's fearfulness. the dog will be fine if you let it be fine. it will come out of its shell eventually, and will mostly likely not need to hard of a correction. it will feel the leadership and begin to trust you as its master. Do a stress agility course like richling said in previous posts to build the dog's trust in you. It will eventually become a very confident dog.

[Purdue#1]

a kid might be fearful of something, but it will eventually have to face its fears without running away or attacking. For instance, since you want to talk about kids, if a kid hates being around a bunch of people you take him to a place with a lot of people to get him used to people he can walk around and you let him sort it all out, but if he were to lash out at someone talking to him you would correct him right then and there. Eventually he will get used to having people around and not worry anymore.

same with a dog. it has to face it fears head on because only then can it move forward. it cannot run away and cannot fight. It has to get used to it. and the owner has to think about that moment, not about the dog's past. the dog will move on if you move on and you let it move on.

[Buddy'sParents]

How would you correct a child, Purdue?

[Momof2Pups]

I'm curious to that, too, Nikki.

And as to helping a dog get over its fears, you can do it gently without force. Physical force and harsh corrections are simply not needed while training and being with a being that, in addition to respecting you, should be respected themselves.

[Zoom]

we are working on getting sly and mickey off their leash and collar all together so they will never need one for the rest of their lives.

And how is this different from working to get any dog weaned off treats so they never need them? You still have that misconception that once treated, always treated. I find that sad. And despite what your trainer says, it is entirely possible to do away with treats completely. It takes the same amount of dedication and skill as it does to wean a dog off a collar.

And you still haven't answered a single question I put to you in that PM. I guess you don't have Richling there to feed you the answers.

[Kayla]

Well i must say this has become a very intresting topic, especially on the topic of drive building which I have only ever heard of briefly here and there.

Just so we can keep the thread going i'll add in a small week one progress report for Duke and a quick outline of what I've been doing for anyone intrested.

In an attempt to not over do it and completely loose Duke's attention I've been keeping sessions very short and random throughout the day with alternating rewards in an attempt to keep him guessing.

I use treats and verbal praise on walks as rewards, and a basketball as a reward during games.

The on walk part is pretty staright forward I usually at the beginning of our walk before we run into anyone practice gaining attention by doing a few emergancy down stays and short 5-10 second watch me's. Once we get to a populated area every so often i'll quickly ask for an emergancy down-stay and watch me,click and then offer the corresponding reward.

The funner part of training comes while out back. Duke has a ridiculous affinity for basketballs. I think he would die and go to heaven if I got him a machine that would all day long simply spit out basketballs everywhere as he likes to chase them down, run next to them, nip them to herd them wherever he thinks he can make the basketball roll and then pounces on it, savagely mauls it and occasionally ends up popping it ( the 4th one went yesterday:rolleyes: ).

During these training sessions i get much much more focus simply as he's working for something he truley loves. Much like when we first begin our walk I usually let Duke have one free kick, take down of a basketball before starting. Once we begin I pick up his favourite basketball to begin and hold it behind my back and tell him to get into a down-stay-watch, click and then throw the ball. After that I'll give him another free kick and this time asking him while he'