Animal Behavior

[Doberluv]

We got to talking about operant and classical conditioning in the "Koehler" thread and the conversation got so evolved that I decided to start a new thread. Here are a couple of educational things that some of you might like to read and then we can have a discussion if you like. Feel free to add any links you find of interest. It would be nice to emphasize and learn about the positive instead of having all that disgusting and abusive garbage so vivid in our minds.

A little background:

http://www.behavior.org/animals/index.cfm?page=http%3A//www.behavior.org/animals/ba_in_training_history.cfm


Lookie here what they do...pretty cool::)

http://www.memphiszoo.org/default.aspx?pid=101

[heartdogs]

I'll add a couple of links to spark the discussion. But, I must say that I loved your idea of prefacing the discussion by suggesting that people really read up on the subject before diving in:-))

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/ocguide.htm
http://www.malinut.com/ref/write/oc/
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/87

[Doberluv]

I love your links. That first one, I remember seeing a long time ago...very good. And clicker solutions is a great site. I have yet to check out the last two you put up. Hopefully someone else will take a look if they haven't already seen these. That one about the training in the zoo, I thought was interesting. And should be especially so for people who doubt the effectiveness in training their dogs this way. Dogs are so hardwired to work with us. Wild animals and even other domestic animals aren't anywhere close to the relationship we have with dogs. Thanks for sharing.

[Lilavati]

Great links! I've seen most of them before, but its always good to review.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I have no intention of putting it into action, but does anyone have links about other training methods, and in particular, their history? This is for my intellectual gratification only . . . I'd like to learn more about how various training methods interacted and the effect they had on how the public perceived dogs and dog training.

[Doberluv]

I don't have any links handy, such as other methods besides operant and classical conditioning based methods or learning theory because it's been a long time since I came to realize what made the most sense to me. Years ago, I read Koehler, The Monks of New Skete and other compulsive type training theories by various authors. This was like 20 plus years ago. I use to, before the Internet get stacks of library books and mostly they all talked about praise and sharp collar jerks, scoldings etc...not necessarily extreme stuff, like Koehler, but nothing very scientific, nothing with an accurate perception or understanding of dogs and how they think and learn. It was all stuff based on human values and human cognitive abilities...a whole lot of anthropomorphizing. So, since then, my studies and experience have shown me where to put my trust as far as a philosophy about dogs and their handling.

[Lilavati]

I guess I'll have to hit the library then . . . I was hoping for a nice summary somewhere. Or not, I probably have better things to do with my time.

[Aussie Red]

Rock on Dober !!!

[Doberluv]

LOL Aussie Red!

Lilavati, I would think you could find other stuff online and not have to go to a library. When I went to the library for these things....that was back in the stone age when there was no Internet.

[ron]

I liked the article by Karen Pryor. I didn't know she was training dogs before dolphins. And I didn't know that she used to rely on corrective methods. Yet another person who moved from corrections to rewards. I think the work with dolphins might have been pivotal. How can you scruff a dolphin?


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1338662


The above link is the original study published in 1969, based on studies from 1965.

I may have a scientific bent and the clicker training scientific background certainly appeals to me but I am also practical. +R simply works better, at least for me, and is easier to use. Often, we cannot, unless "no" is linked to correction or punishment, issue a correction fast enough. It has to happen almost as the behavior is happening. But with a clicker, I can mark surgically the exact moment, even from a distance, the behavior is accomplished and reward that. And because it is rewarding, it is likely to be repeatable.

In addition to that, we also have better scientifc understanding of wolf behavior and dog behavior, which are two different things, although there can be similarities, though maybe for different reasons. And a better understand of the social structure of canid groups.

[Doberluv]

How can you scruff a dolphin?

Well Ron, their skin isn't loose enough for that. Haven't you heard? What you do is alpha roll them and hold them down on their backs. If that doesn't work, you take a plastic stave and smack them with it...just so it stings. You can also put a prong collar on them and correct them with that. That's how they learn all the things they learn, from sniffing out explosives down on the floor of the ocean to leaping through hoops at Sea world.

Seriously, now that my sarcasm is out of my system (just temporarily probably) I agree with everything you wrote. It isn't just about being "nice" and not being "mean." It works better too.

Next I will read your link...haven't gotten to that yet. Thanks for posting.

[BostonBanker]

I'm housesitting right now and have pretty limited computer time, thanks to a 14 month old Aussie;) , but am excited to read the links later.

I was another one of those kids (and teens) who was reading every book on dogs in the library. Got a little thrown by one of the Monks books. They were discussing corrections, and the quote was something like, "If your dog didn't yelp, you didn't hit it hard enough". Heaven help me if I had tried that on our Bedlington - it would have involved bleeding on my part, I'm sure. He gave some pretty decent corrections of his own:p .

[Lilavati]

How can you scruff a dolphin?

Considering they weight 800+ libs and can hit you in the water with the force of a small car . . . maybe one should stick to yanking on the ears of Rotties . . . .

[Xerxes]

Heaven help me if I had tried that on our Bedlington - i

I heard they were a pretty fierce terrier. Actually I heard that they were *ahem* very feisty, to say the least!

[BostonBanker]

I heard they were a pretty fierce terrier. Actually I heard that they were *ahem* very feisty, to say the least!


:lol-sign: I remember reading somewhere how Bedlingtons were one of the "softer" terriers. Medley certainly hadn't been informed.

I think he would have been a bit different had we known more, but I don't think he ever would have been willing to take correction from anyone. He was certainly an intense dog!

[VWilson]

Doberluv,

I have no real problem with your beliefs on operant conditioning, and your belief in food motivation for training, and behavior modification, I like anything that works, as long as it works, when it does not, it is time to change tactics..
However....
Here is my question to you, and please correct my incorrect assumptions as this is not meant to insult, or make you angry, but there is no other way to ask, other than outright. So please foregive any step over the line.

If your choice of methods are working so great for you, why do you have a 4 year old dog with dog aggression issues, that is unstable on a leash when other dogs are around, that you have been working on for 2.5 years since the dog was 18 months old.

Why are you so unyeilding on a changing your approach if it might solve or help with your problems within a few sessions, and allow your dog to walk on a leash in areas with strange dogs, without the threat of lunging, and without him being afraid.

If your dog lives to be 10 years old,(hopefully much longer, But 10 is a good average for a healthy lifespan.), so far you had been dealing with a problem for 25% of his lifespan. And, over half his life, so far.

I only ask, because I do not understand your constant belittling of methods proven to work for cases just like yours. It is simple, quick , and effective.

I am not belittling, or downing your choices, as I know they do work in some cases, but it seems apparent to me, that it is not working for you with this individual dog.

If you want to make some angry come backs, or fight about it fine, but if you want to discuss it, I will give you a short story about a dog I am taking, for several days, to rehab as he is to the point of getting Euthanized for dog aggression, and people aggression, and other behaviors. And discuss why I am using Koehler on this specific dog, and a little about todays progress.

It is up to you.


Val Wilson.

[Zoom]

I'd be interested in hearing that, just for my own purposes.

[Doberluv]

If your choice of methods are working so great for you, why do you have a 4 year old dog with dog aggression issues, that is unstable on a leash when other dogs are around, that you have been working on for 2.5 years since the dog was 18 months old.

I have worked on desensatizing Lyric to other dogs only when I spend a week or two in Seattle about 3-4 times a year. Other than that, where I live is wilderness. I have land and am surrounded by thousands of acreas of forest. There are just a few neighbors around and few dogs. The dogs that the neighbors have, Lyric is fine with. Any dogs that happen to wander into our pasture, he is also fine with, as he does not display any aggressiveness when he is off leash. This so called dog aggression is not always full blown aggression, but barrier frustration. And sometimes, with some dogs, he elicits play from them. It is certain dogs that he acts aggressive or lunges toward when I'm in Seattle walking on this path that we use where a lot of people walk their dogs. So, it has not been 2.5 years of intense desensatization.

Why are you so unyeilding on a changing your approach if it might solve or help with your problems within a few sessions, and allow your dog to walk on a leash in areas with strange dogs, without the threat of lunging, and without him being afraid.

He is not afraid of other dogs...shows no apprehension and in fact, when he has been in classes; agility and obedience, he has no problem with other dogs at all. He passed his CGC test and was fine with the part of the test in which two people with their dogs stop and greet one another. So, there seems to be a distinction to him with "working" and casual leash walks.

Why am I unyielding? The only other method I know about is using extraordinarily harsh punishment for that behavior. First of all, I do not believe in attacking my dog in any way. I just simply can't stomach it. Second of all, according to the people I admire most in the dog behavior world, the behavioral scientists, the university behavior departments such as Purdue University, Berkely and many others, the researchers, the studies, the demonstrations, the experiences of veterinary applied behaviorists, harsh aversives have no place in training dogs. Harsh punishment is confirmed by all these people to cause a dog to merely supress the behavior and in fact can cause the stimuli to be associated with the pain, intimidation, fear that the owner puts into the dog....thereby setting up a dog that very often will, at some future time regress and sometimes explosively. Redirected or displaced aggression is often seen when severe punishment is used on a dog, as they have defensive instincts very much intact.

I believe that severe aversives erode the trust that my dog has in me. He trusts me explicitly to never attack him. Dogs who "turn" on their owners don't trust their owners and dogs treated with severity are not secure and do not have trust in their owners.

I am quite certain that if I worked with him every day in a more consitant and systematic way, using the methods that many, many trainers and behaviorists use, my dog would over come a great deal of this. In fact, he already has and has met a couple of dogs here in Seattle that he's made friends with and can go off leash with. He's crazy about them. But alas....just when he is starting to get the hang of it, we go back to Idaho for months and months to our wilderness paradise.

If your dog lives to be 10 years old,(hopefully much longer, But 10 is a good average for a healthy lifespan.), so far you had been dealing with a problem for 25% of his lifespan. And, over half his life, so far.

My dog's prognosis is to live for a year or two (if we're lucky) more. So, your estimate of "over half of his life" is under-rated.

My Lyric is lovely with people, can walk through wall to wall crowds, takes a treat from a 3 year old's hand like a little mouse. He's extraordinarily well behaved and is quite advanced in his obedience training. The dog reactiveness is said to be quite common in male Dobermans and while I don't like it, we have made progress and I can live with it, for as little time we spend where there is this situation of other dogs around. At home, he is rarely on a leash and we hike in the mountains and he runs and plays on my acreage with my 3 other dogs.

I only ask, because I do not understand your constant belittling of methods proven to work for cases just like yours. It is simple, quick , and effective.

The only reason I belittle anything is when I feel that something is inhumane or unfair to a dog. Or is based on human values, morals and does not take into account how it has been shown that animals view things...their evolution and domestication. There's a whole lot of reasons why I do not believe in severe punishment, a lot of fall out or undesireable side effects.

If you have a solution which is simple, quick and effective, I'd love to have you explain it to me. But, if it involves me hurting my dog, causing him fear, bewilderment, pain, threats, worry about what is going to happen to him, no....I can not do that to an animal. It's just not in me. If it is something which supresses behavior but does not deal with the underlying issue of what is causing the dog to react that way, then that's not good enough for me either. I'd rather manage the situation the way I am. After all, I probably won't have Lyric with me for that much longer.

Today, we passed by many dogs and I only had to get his attention, tell him, "leave it" and make about 10-15 ft between us. He only once started to alert and begin to get aroused and then he seemed to think better of it and stopped himself.

I hope I answered everything you were wondering about. And sure, I'd like to know what you would do.

[showdawgz]

How is it possible that these "harsh" methods were proven to be ineffective when operant conditioning clearly states that both positive and NEGATIVE reinforcements are used? I am refferring to instant correction to a certain stimuli. Either I am totally confused and stumped on what you are reffering to as "harsh" methods or you and these "studies" have contradicted their purpose.

[Doberluv]

How is it possible that these "harsh" methods were proven to be ineffective when operant conditioning clearly states that both positive and NEGATIVE reinforcements are used? I am refferring to instant correction to a certain stimuli. Either I am totally confused and stumped on what you are reffering to as "harsh" methods or you and these "studies" have contradicted their purpose.

I am quite clear on learning theory and am aware of the four quadrants of operant conditioning. And I have a clear understanding as to why the punishment aspect of it needs to be kept to a minimum and low intensity. There are reasons for this.

I do use negative reinforcement. I even use punishment. Punishment can be sweet and soft. I don't use aversives which I consider to be severe or unnecessary or do not line up with how a dog understands things. I do not subject a dog to my own human values, morals or cognitive ability as a basis or platform for his understanding. In other words, I do not project human reasoning onto dogs where it does not pertain.

I have studied animal behavior and dog behavior specifically for a long time, formally and informally and have been in dogs for nearly a half century. I couldn't possibly explain everything that I have accumulated in my mind in all this time, why I do the things I do, my experiences, why I believe in what I believe in. You'll have to do your own research if you're interested in delving into animal behavior more extensively. I am here to enjoy the forum, to help anyone if I can. I think I have helped a few people not only solve some behavior problems, training problems, but have heard back that their relationship with their dogs is better than ever before. That is what I like to hear. I am not here to argue and be picked apart and won't engage in that volleying back and forth where it exceeds any useful purpose.

Happy training! :)

[Doberluv]

I liked the article by Karen Pryor. I didn't know she was training dogs before dolphins. And I didn't know that she used to rely on corrective methods. Yet another person who moved from corrections to rewards. I think the work with dolphins might have been pivotal. How can you scruff a dolphin?


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1338662


The above link is the original study published in 1969, based on studies from 1965.

I may have a scientific bent and the clicker training scientific background certainly appeals to me but I am also practical. +R simply works better, at least for me, and is easier to use. Often, we cannot, unless "no" is linked to correction or punishment, issue a correction fast enough. It has to happen almost as the behavior is happening. But with a clicker, I can mark surgically the exact moment, even from a distance, the behavior is accomplished and reward that. And because it is rewarding, it is likely to be repeatable.

In addition to that, we also have better scientifc understanding of wolf behavior and dog behavior, which are two different things, although there can be similarities, though maybe for different reasons. And a better understand of the social structure of canid groups.

Ron, I enjoyed your link. Thanks for posting. (I love Karen Pryor too!)

[elegy]

i've been reading a book about EATM, the zoo and exotic animal training school in california, and the current chapter is on dolphin trainers and the major dolphin training programs. at one of the programs, they don't even have a way to tell the animals no, which i thought was extremely interesting. the reason being, once you have the ability to say no, you tend to overuse it.

when i started out dealing with luce's dog-reaction/aggression, i used mainly aversives because i didn't know any better. she's a hard dog and the harshest correction i could give was not enough to make her care. and yes, i put her on the ground a few times.

we made a huge amount of progress with a combination of desensitization and attention-training and i can take her places and do things with her now that i never dreamed i'd be able to. is she perfect? no. but i don't expect perfection. is she safe off-leash in an uncontrolled environment? no, but there is no need for her to be. she is a HUGE amount better than she used to be, and she's a whole lot less management work than she used to be.

[Doberluv]

That book sounds fascinating Elegy. And that is fantastic that Luce is more pleasant to take around on leash. I know that desensatization works wonders and Lyric has gotten tons better too, even though he gets so little practice. As far as every other kind of training situation, all the reasons I gave for not using stern aversives are not the only reasons for not using them. +R works better IMO and keeps a dog's spirit so much more intact as well as makes our bond so much tighter. I use to train with more compulsion, more "no", more "corrections" in the "olden" days and the difference is like night and day. The shaping, the giving of alternatives, watching the un-payed behaviors extinguish, watching the dog sift through all the behaviors he's doing to come on the one you're talking about and then after sufficient reinforcement, his choosing that behavior while the others extinguish. I prefer that over punishing a dog for behaviors he has not been given a reason he understands....not to instead of thinking about my agenda as being a good enough reason for him...an animal. Besides all that, it's fun to see how the dog learns and responds!

Thanks for sharing your experience Elegy.

[houndlove]

I read that book too! It's awesome! Highly recommended!

I liked reading about Lyric's progress, thanks for discussing it doberluv. We were in somewhat of a similar situation which is how I have a 7 year old dog who's still leash reactive. Once upon a time, we adopted a 1-2 year old adolescent dog who'd been neglected and dumped at a pound. We nursed him back to health and then lived with him for 3 years waaaaaay out in the middle of nowhere. We conquered seperation anxiety like woah, built his confidence a bit, made a number of ridiculous training errors (Monks of New Skete, may I have those 3 years of my dog's life back please?), but pretty much never had to leash walk him. The only other dogs he ever saw were the neighbor dogs who he ran and played with off leash on a daily basis.

Then we moved to a big city. But because he's only reactive to some other dogs (what his criteria is I will never know, it's mysterious), we just kind of muscled through for a while. But then we adopted a second dog. Walking two large dogs where one of them is freaking out is much less doable. So by this time Conrad is 6 years old and we're only beginning to realize, oh, we have a problem. We only started training to deal with this in earnest a few months ago. I think we are doing quite well. He is not 100% yet but is making a lot of improvements. I may have to bring in a pro to help us lick it for good though, and that's fine. It's a complicated behavior and is based on fear (he's basically inside his giant body just a quivering pile of goo due to his neglect and early lack of socialization) and that's not going to be dealt with overnight. But I often wonder, are people thinking if my chosen training method is so awesome why do I have a 7 year old reactive dog? Well, that's why. Hopefully by the time he is 8 that will no longer be the case.

But seriously when you have a dog who is fearful and that is why they act out, I see little point in doing something that will make them even MORE fearful. Conrad's got a whole matrix of fear-based behaviors and it would be like whack-a-mole to just run around suppressing one behavior at a time but never dealing with the underlying fear. And you can't fight fear with more fear.

[Doberluv]

That is good to know how you're dealing with it and how it's getting better. Yes, if fear is the basis, absolutely punishing harshly would be so detrimental. I don't know if it's fear in Lyric's case. He was in classes with groups of dogs and any dogs I could find for him to socialize and play with since he was about 12 weeks old, just after I got him and until he was about 2.5 - 3 years old. I haven't done classes for a while now. So, while I thought he had ample socialization with dogs, perhaps not enough....not enough unfamiliar ones.

When he barks at other dogs or strains at the leash, it's sometimes as though he wants to go see them, check them out. If there is a dog that he doesn't act quite so grumpy about.... and I stand there for a minute, having him sideways, alternating his attention on me, then the dog...he will quite often stick his rear up in the air and wag his little stubby tail. This is not with every dog, mind you, but some. Some, he's quite ornery looking with.

I do know what you mean though about this type of behavior being based on fear....flight distance when on a leash...and that is most usually what it's about deep down even if the dog doesn't appear to be afraid persay. (If he can't go away to make distance, then he needs to make the other guy go away) It just comes from nature. All animals have the default setting for caution rather than curiosity. Caution is a stronger trait. And that puppy socialization window closes when they learn what to fear and what not to fear....and when it closes, that's when the caution about things is there to stay pretty much. Some dogs seem to need more socialization than others, copious amounts, Dobermans being one of them. Lots of dogs have this behavior. I see it on my walks. But seriously when you have a dog who is fearful and that is why they act out, I see little point in doing something that will make them even MORE fearful. So, your statement there is sooooo true. And that is why it is a mistake to be harsh about it. All you do is supress the acting out and do nothing to solve the actual fear. It can certainly come up again at some future time and the dog can re-direct it on you. This is what the behavior experts say after loads of study and experience....and it makes sense.


I stopped to talk to a guy here who had a seizure detecting dog, a black lab/spaniel mix. (?) This dog was also a male. At first, Lyric did his usual "gruff, gruff" lunge. I told Lyric to knock it off and sit. (It's not like I don't tell him anything) And while he sat and behaved himself, he got some string cheese. The guy was very nice and interested in Lyric. Soon, up went Lyric's rear and that tail started going, then the paws started pouncing. The other dog was all about it, so we let them play. It's just hit and miss.

Anyhow...I'm rambling. Let us know your progress and how he does. I hope it continues to go well.

I'm shoving off to an island today to see my folks so won't be online for a day or two. Carry on! Have a great day!

[elegy]

That book sounds fascinating Elegy. And that is fantastic that Luce is more pleasant to take around on leash. I know that desensatization works wonders and Lyric has gotten tons better too, even though he gets so little practice.

the book is called Kicked, Bitten, and Scratched and it's by Amy Sutherland if anybody's interested. it's pretty light and fluffy reading.

my problem when dealing with luce was certainly not lack of practice. my problem was preventing her from getting into situations where i knew she would aggress. it was really hard because just taking her out to potty created issues with the fence-running, barking schnauzer living next door. sometimes we wouldn't see him, but other times he'd come bombing out the dog door or smash himself off the back window. talk about your variable reinforcement schedule working. ugh.

even if i took her out the front, he had fence-line on that side of the house, too. it was extremely frustrating.

[showdawgz]

I am quite clear on learning theory and am aware of the four quadrants of operant conditioning. And I have a clear understanding as to why the punishment aspect of it needs to be kept to a minimum and low intensity. There are reasons for this.

I do use negative reinforcement. I even use punishment. Punishment can be sweet and soft. I don't use aversives which I consider to be severe or unnecessary or do not line up with how a dog understands things. I do not subject a dog to my own human values, morals or cognitive ability as a basis or platform for his understanding. In other words, I do not project human reasoning onto dogs where it does not pertain.

I have studied animal behavior and dog behavior specifically for a long time, formally and informally and have been in dogs for nearly a half century. I couldn't possibly explain everything that I have accumulated in my mind in all this time, why I do the things I do, my experiences, why I believe in what I believe in. You'll have to do your own research if you're interested in delving into animal behavior more extensively. I am here to enjoy the forum, to help anyone if I can. I think I have helped a few people not only solve some behavior problems, training problems, but have heard back that their relationship with their dogs is better than ever before. That is what I like to hear. I am not here to argue and be picked apart and won't engage in that volleying back and forth where it exceeds any useful purpose.

Happy training! :)


I still dont see how using corrections interferes with human morals. A swift correction can be understood on a canine level, hence the fact that they wouldnt be so widely used if they weren't useful. Its understanding WHEN you can offer a proper correction. Obviously in your case (as I am in currently and have been in the same situation many times) it would be foolish to harshly correct a dog who is obviously stressed in some way causing the fear or anxiety to excalade therefore contradicting the whole purpose of the correction. I use the term nuetralization for my dog reactive dogs. I believe it is very similar to your method or might be the same thing, just different terms. I work diligently on keeping focus with me, and ensuring them that I will handle whatever issue that is making them stressed. Maybe I am misunderstanding your technique, but I think it is very similar to what I do.

But like you said, there's no point in going back and forth. :)

[houndlove]

The problem with positive punishment, beyond morals (and I used to use +P while at the same time being a committed vegetarian and Zen Buddhist--and my Buddhist teacher, a priest, is a dog woman who trains traditionally), is that it tends to have unpredictable fallout. Even if you have impeccable timing (which I don't) and use the exact amount of force necessary to make the correction effective as a punishment, but no more than that (which would be cruelty) or less than that (which would be nagging), any fall out that you get from the +P is going to be of a rather negative and not easily correctable variety. And if you screw up, you really screw up.

And in laboratory studies it has been shown that when modifying behavior in animals, +R is the most effective for accomplishing that task. You may not "see how +P is bad in some cases" but the fact remains that in hundreds of studies done on lots of different kinds of animals, behavior is modified faster, cleaner and with less fall-out by using +R over the other quads.

[showdawgz]

Like Dober said, it serves no purpose going back and forth. But saying +P is ineffective is a total contradiction to the definition of operant conditioning. Even verbal corrections are negative reinforcements, you cant honestly tell me that you never said "no" or "eh eh" to your dog.

[ron]

Next I will read your link...haven't gotten to that yet. Thanks for posting.

On another forum, we were in the practice of reading and discussing peer-reviewed literature and studies pertaining to dogs and operant conditioning. This study was posted in there and it's saved in my favorites.

[houndlove]

I didn't say ineffective. I said less effective for modifying behavior quickly, cleanly and without negative blowback.

[VWilson]

Sorry folks, I just don't get it, and I do not disapprove of your theories, and methods, but these are dogs, not rats, or dolphins. The methods have their place with dogs, but they have their limits at times also.
I don't believe in managing stress, I believe in piling it on, and teaching the dog to deal with it, and therefore removing the reasons for the bad behavior. When a stressful situation quits causing stress, there is no chance of poor behavior, due to stress, because it no longer bothers them.

I spent 3.5 hours working with the spawn of satan dog today.
This is one screwed up dog that is becoming unscrewed.
The all positive/treat trainers have said to put him down, it is the same story heard a thousand times by people who deal with aggressive, and training resistant dogs.

A few solid pops last night, and he was walking better, and starting to walk like a dog with some sense, He bit me twice, lightly, while protesting, no big deal, part of the risk of working with bad aggressive dogs, and it should be expected considering he has bitten every one else, This time, he got corrected for it.
The jumper at the handler has stopped, as has the jumping on, and at people

Today he was walking good, but started a protest, bam, bam bam, and he gave it up, no sweat. It was about a halfassed protest anyway.
He fell in beside me, and we walked for a while longer. He knows just where to walk, and be able to catch my change of direction, and yet look around, and enjoy the walk.
Goal one met, now to nail it down and make it stick.

That walk got boring. as there were few runners, and walkers to set him up for a correction, and the ones there were, were not setting him off, so I went to the pet supply that also has a rescue adoption area with excited dogs, a correction there, and then a few minutes later some big black mix, that was lunging and carrying on that nonsense came into the store, and my little rehab project just strolled right on by, no problem. He simply looked, evaluated, and kept moving
The stress level was too low there, as he was progressing well, so we went to wander around the grocery store entrance, carts, and lots of people coming through sliding door, I am thinking this will be perfect distractions, and stress, a couple of small corrections, for really small infractions, and it got boring.
So it is off to the park. with the highschool runners, and 10 tennis courts with balls bouncing and a bunch of tenagers holloering, bicyclist, and a lot of dogs. this should have been overwheling for him.

He got popped for lunging at a bicyclist, and a little bit of wandering too far out, and taking the slack out of the lead.
And best of all he was easily the best behaved dog at the park.

This is a dog that has been through 2 training classes, and is so aggressive PTS has been recommended.

He is a tough as nails little herding dog, that is viciously resistant to training, he knows the command, he simply is not going to do it and you can kiss his ass, or take the bite, your choice. Apparently, he has not been shown plan C until yesterday.

He is a long way from done, as he did get a bite in today, even got some blood to flow out when I touched his neck to move him, so he got corrected again, with a bit more fervor.
He will not allow people to move him off the couch, or out of any place he wants to plant himself, and if you touch him to move him, he bites, well, he did bite, now he will not move on command 100%, but he will allow you to coach him by touching him, so it is working.

This is only 2 days of work, and about a total of 4-5 hours.

On tonights walk, he was perfect.

At this point here is no way the owner will put him down. She was so happy when I talked with her on the phone.
He needs some more intense work, but the barrier has been removed. He sees the light. He is not scared, he is actually pretty happy, and has been playing with my other three dogs, and has quit trying to dominate the food, he is a few feet away, asleep. He shadows me around when we go out into the back yard to pee, and such, and wanders close, and I pet, and praise him a lot when working. I have not raised a hand to him, just leash pops to the degree needed

This little red aussie is a sweet heart, and full of love, but he just needs somebody to lay down some parameters, and consequenses for bad behvior.

I was napping earlier, and he and our little dog ended up playing on top of me, wrestling, and carrying on. So he is not scared of me.

I am not doing recalls with him, because I don't want him to bond wth me, but he is not running away from me. If I call him, he may come, he may stand there, so I go get him, and bring him along gently by the collar, which he did not allow, until today
He is not allowed to lunge at other dogs, motorcycles, runner, and pedestrian, and is not allowed to react to other poorly trained dogs.
That crap is over, no more acting out, and being a mean litle asshole.
He has become responsible for his own action, and seems quite happy, and jovial.

In the time I have left with him, I cannot fix all his issues, but I can prepare him for success, and work with his owner to get a stable dog that she can work with.

WHen you start fixing things, other things just take care of themselves. He is a lunger, and pacer, in the car, and has to be belted in because he paces, and lunges.
Today, I just put him in the truck seat, and he sat there for a minute, looked around, and laid down. never paced once.

I feel he has the makings of a super dog, he is driven, he is very smart.
He is tough as an anvil, he just needs paramters to live within.
Dogs do not have to live in some hellish state of mind forever, they can be unscrewed, and unscrewed quickly.

Now I am going to go over, and wake him up, and put him in his crate for the night, he is very tired. It was a big day for him, with a lot of stress, which he handled very well. I am happy for the little guy, I like him, he is a nice dog, and just has some issues that will be fixed.


Val WIlson

[elegy]

Sorry folks, I just don't get it, and I do not disapprove of your theories, and methods, but these are dogs, not rats, or dolphins. The methods have their place with dogs, but they have their limits at times also.

absolutely they're dogs and not rats or dolphins, but they still learn the same way. so do people. the difference is our screwed up relationship with them and our ability to physically correct them.

maybe it's not that the method has limits but rather that the trainer's ability does.

[ron]

But saying +P is ineffective is a total contradiction to the definition of operant conditioning.

+P is a quadrant of operant conditioning. And most humans simply do not have the timing, speed, and skill of observation to use it properly. Even dogs can overuse it on each other, such as holding a bite too long or being to guardy. Mother Nature has a +P, at times. Such as a dog finding a porcupine. Chances are, he won't mess with a procupine again. This does not mean we need to stick our dogs with needles. Also, +P does not train. It stops the behavior at that instant, sometimes. But a dog that can learn always learns with +R. It's implicit in all creatures.

[adojrts]

I spent 3.5 hours working with the spawn of satan dog today.
This is one screwed up dog that is becoming unscrewed.
The all positive/treat trainers have said to put him down, it is the same story heard a thousand times by people who deal with aggressive, and training resistant dogs.

Val WIlson

I would bet everything I have (which happens to be a fair amount) that there are more Positive trainers having success rehib. dogs screwed up by methods like yours, than the other way around.

Not impressed...........been there, done that, finished with it and moved on to better methods.

[showdawgz]

+P is a quadrant of operant conditioning. And most humans simply do not have the timing, speed, and skill of observation to use it properly. Even dogs can overuse it on each other, such as holding a bite too long or being to guardy. Mother Nature has a +P, at times. Such as a dog finding a porcupine. Chances are, he won't mess with a procupine again. This does not mean we need to stick our dogs with needles. Also, +P does not train. It stops the behavior at that instant, sometimes. But a dog that can learn always learns with +R. It's implicit in all creatures.

I fear for humanity, if that is what most think. So you are telling me that dogs dont learn from postive punishment. Negative reinforcements are used by dogs everyday, and yes they may overdo it, doesnt mean the other dog is gonna hate him forever. My dogs growl at each other, and resource guard, but yet my dogs never resented or feared another dog, they play like buddies 5 minutes later. That is the difference, dogs dont hold grudges like humans, and THAT is when human morals get thrown in the picture. "oh they are going to resent you or hate you forever". But you do your thing and I'll do mine.

[ToscasMom]

It was a big day for him, with a lot of stress
I'll bet.

[VWilson]

Well regardless of all the scientific studies with Rats, seals, goldfish, and dolphins, a system utilizing physical conditioning, and praises works
The sytem works when worked properly, and taylored to the individual dog.
It bonds the dog closer to the human. The animal feels safer because they do not have to make the leadership decisions.

All I care is that it works, and this dog will be saved. He got exactly two mild corrections today.
There is no way the owner will put him down, she only needs to change the permisive ways she deals wth this specific dog.
She has never had a biter before, so she is not a person who habitually creates them.

We did some light agility to build confidence, and he got a lot of praise.

He got corrections for unacceptable behavior. praise for good, and praise just because I like him.

Now when he hears the prong collar jingle, he comes running, and I have not even been calling him, as he does not come anyway. For some reason he is coming now. He even trots happily to me.

And you guys are right about the treat training working, and very wrong about it working also.

It does work, he knows all the commands, but does not work because he chooses not to do them.
Probably because he is not a rat. seal, or dolphin, nor is he a dog who cares about pleasing people. He is a hard as nails, tough working dog, who is violently resistant to training, making him the perfect candidate for Koehler type training

He has now started obeying commands frequently. He is not sleeping under the corner table now, as far back as he can get, instead he is sleeping on the floor in the open.
He never once tried to bite today, not even raise a lip.

He spent hours today walking, and working happily along with me, enjoying the fall weather, meeting a bunch of dogs, and getting petted, and complmented about his good behavior, by the people getting pulled around the park by their dogs.

He spent some time on the play ground equipment doing the poor mans agility course, building confidence. He also likes the heal game where I change speeds, and directions quickly, and try to loose him, and he never once got a correction, because I was actually unable to set him up for one, as he is using that head of his to pay attention, and walk in a proper position to watch me, and the surronding area.

He is a brillant little Aussie, beneath all that bad behavior.
Being so brillant is why he was so resolute in resisting training

Long term should go well. The owner is the prepared to step up and be the master as needed by this individual dog.



Doberluv, I know you love your dog, and I imagine that overall he is a good dog, but a few proper corrections would likely solve his problems, and yours, and make life easier for both of you.

Good stable behavior opens the door to more fun things in life for both dog, and master. Why waste time sticking to dogma that is not working, when you can change a few small ways of doing things, and open the world to him.

It is not my dog, and it does not matter to me, but it does matter, because I feel you love your dog, and really want the best for him, and you.

You, and those who think in a similar manner, spend way too much time worrying about a small number of corrections, instead of the overall heavy use of praise.
This particular dog has recieved a small percentage of corrections, as compared to the lavishing of praise he has recieved from me.
The praise flows as if a flood gate of it has been loosed, while there have only been a handfull of correction, albeit strong, and significant ones.
I think on the next dog I will count them, but probably less than twenty corrections on this one.
I have learned one very important thing about corrections, when I correct, I no longer bother with a leash jiggle, or threat, I put one on them, so they will know they were corrected. As such, there is much less correcting happening.
I had that epiphany from trainer while back, and it makes all the difference in how phisycal conditioning under stress works.


We can quote rat research all day long, but this one dog shows that when the rat research fails, there is another choice to achieve success.
The proof of training is on the streets of the real world.

In reality, the various methods are not incompatible, the lighter stuff can still be done, and sucess achieved with some dogs, and when more is needed to achieve success, the method is adjusted to the needs of the dog, not the conscientious objections of the owners



Val Wilson

[showdawgz]

You, and those who think in a similar manner, spend way too much time worrying about a small number of corrections, instead of the overall heavy use of praise.

Val Wilson

Thankyou!! :hail:

[ron]

The proof of training is on the streets of the real world.

Excellent statement. Because of clicker training, clicking when calm, and positively reinforced behaviors that I can also use as incompatible behaviors, my dog is less likely to fight.

Real world example. Normally, before, when I used corrections, if a dog charged us, my dog would immediately return fire.

After all the positive stuff that we're supposed to be wrong about, he put up with 3 separate charges from a loose dog before he started barking back. In another real world case, another dog lunged and barked at him and he did nothing. And I rewarded that nothingness, which has a chance of being repeated in a future time, should another dog do that.

I am in the streets of the real world and see the difference that the positive method has created.:)

[houndlove]

Once again apparently all of the positive trained dogs out there acting wonderfully, earning obedience and agility titles, working as service dogs, these are totally imaginary mirages, figments of our imaginations.

Someone actually came up to me once when I was reading Don't Shoot the Dog and asked what it was about and when I told her just said, "Oh that doesn't work!" I asked her how she knew and she couldn't tell me. She just figured well, it doesn't work because you have to punish dogs. She'd never considered the idea that maybe you didn't. The entire notion was ridiculous to her because she'd never heard the concept before. But the person whom she was telling, "That doesn't work" has two dogs who indeed it has worked for. So, tell me again how it doesn't work?

I'll never say that +P doesn't work because I know it does. I used to do it myself. I'll fully acknowledge that. Lots of things work to train a dog if you define "work" as the dog can go through the motions that you've trained him in. All the quadrants of operant conditioning work since they are defined by the modified behavior that results from them. But after the quads were defined in the initial research, all subsequent research was to find out what combination of them worked best and what the outcomes were, beyond the modification of the discreet behavior, of each quad or combinations thereof. Which is how we know that some quads and combinations of quads work faster, cleaner and with less negative fallout than others.

[Dekka]

First of all positive training which incorporates negative punishment as well as positive reinforcement is very very effective in dogs that don't want to please people. I find it more effective for those dogs than punishment, as many dogs who are hard, and independent, don't care about positive punishment.

Also... And you guys are right about the treat training working, and very wrong about it working also. shows you have very little grasp about positive training. many many positive trainers don't use treats.

You act like positive trainers don't use any consequences other than not getting a 'treat'. That is erroneous too. There are consequences when my dogs don't perform. However, strange as it may seem (and I have rehabbed dogs that were due to be PTS for biting humans for the JRTRO) I very rarely need to use them. For me punishment comes in when I have failed to train the dog.