Can I get your feedback on this site

[mrose_s]

Toolalla Kennels (http://www.toolallakoolies.com/)

I've started looking around for a coolie breeder, now this isn't an ANKC registered breed so there is no standard really. Though these breeders have chosen thier own "standard" to work towards over the last few decades. They say they have been working towards dark merle colourign to avoid blindness/deafness in pups. Also a short coat and long legs to avoid grass seeds stuck in fur and allow them to travel further easier.
Also, they are working lines.
I can't see anything on health testing but it seems they choose to breed for ability to work more than anything.

You guys are much better at sussing these things out than me lol.
But ofcourse I will be contacting them, viewing parents etc etc before making any decisions.

I also like that on their site they encourage you to look around at different breeders and have a page specially dedicated to whether or not the coolie is right for you.

[Dekka]

They kill puppies that are born white......."We’ve worked diligently and successfully to eliminate this problem from our coolies. Any pup that presented too much white was promptly destroyed.

Not surprisingly, we’ve copped a lot of flack for destroying puppies that weren’t up to standard. Some people believe that no coolie should ever be killed. But because of our tough stance and strict set of requirements, we can proudly say we haven’t bred a white pup (or one with any abnormalities) in over 6 years."

[Dekka]

And no where can I find any health testing, guarantees, etc

[mrose_s]

i know, that kinda irked me about killing the white pups.
I suppose this is mainly to provide to the working dog community.

This is hard.

[~Jessie~]

They kill puppies that are born white......."We’ve worked diligently and successfully to eliminate this problem from our coolies. Any pup that presented too much white was promptly destroyed.

Not surprisingly, we’ve copped a lot of flack for destroying puppies that weren’t up to standard. Some people believe that no coolie should ever be killed. But because of our tough stance and strict set of requirements, we can proudly say we haven’t bred a white pup (or one with any abnormalities) in over 6 years."

That right there would be enough for me to stay away from them :yikes:

[mrose_s]

beginning to look into the coolie community, this appears pretty commonplace. which in my eyes, I still don't see as aceptable.

Its also seems like the coolie is a breed lacking a lot of standard due to breeders not agreeing with each other or downright bagging each other out. This IS harder than i thought it would be, bloody hell.

[mrose_s]

I have another couple fo breeders i will look into aswell

[HoundedByHounds]

They cull the old way, that's hardcore. Now I don't think it is morally right...but what is the market for this breed for "pets" and do they make suitable housepets? If they were kept grown out and s/n who'd be there to take them...if there's a legitimate demand and the breed is actually suitable...then they IMO are going much too far.

Now having said that I will also say this...today...breeders spend thousands trying to save neonatal puppies...some of those puppies may even grown to the best and shown and bred....but the question is...is that lack of vitality right at birth....hinting at some other flaw that is then passed along? Is saving them all at every expense...good for the breed? Hard questions!

IMO breeding is a constant dance between doing what is right for you...what is right for the breed...and what is right in the eyes of the judgemental public.

[mrose_s]

a agree HbH, i love your posts. I understand them doing it, but its hard for me to comprehend myself.
Not a lot of people know this breed exists, and a lot of the people that do know little about this. I feel a coolie in the wrong hands could find itself in a much worse place than if destroyed young.
even as i write that, like i said, its hard to comprehend. I'm still trying to work all this out

[malmo]

I gotta admit -- I don't think I could buy from a breeder that did that. One thing I appreciate in breeders is a basic love of their dogs, and a willingness to provide a home for any of them which, for whatever reason (1) aren't breed standard, (2) don't sell, and (3) don't fit well with their new homes. Killing them because of physical characteristics just doesn't seem quite right.

It may be that white pups are also deaf and blind, because that's common in merle breeds. But they said they kill pups that presented "too much white." Oy.

[Laurelin]

I have a major problem with much coolie breeding for this reason. The ONLY reason this happens is merle x merle breedings. If the fanciers would stop turning their noses at solid coolies (which do happen but are considered 'throwbacks' which is genetically ridiculous) they could completely avoid these problems.

Why is the merle COLOR so important in a WORKING breed?

There was a thread I started on this a while back, lemme see if I can come up with it.

ETA: here's what I got from another Coolie breeder about that site. Bold is her answers. Others are my questions:

It's good to hear from you. My question was basically just one of color. You see, I'm a gene major and i don't understand how you can possibly get merle pups all of the time without breeding double merles.
You're speaking of Toolalla Coolies - they (mainly Tabitha Parker) LIE and say they never produce double merles and never produce solids. I used to be on her dog forum and when another member asked me the very same question that you did --- I answered and it made Tabitha so mad because she was caught in a lie that she banned me from her forum and has spent the last year trying to discredit me and my dogs. She's a nut.

I'm inolved with shelties and know that double merles are usually highly frowned upon as many times they have semi-lethal effects.
Coolie breeders do practice breeding merle to merle (M/m to M/m). Most are of the understanding, through mis-information, uneducation and ignorance, that the Coolie breed is an entirely merle breed. Which is genetically not possible. Trying to explain that to those breeders was and still is like banging your head against a brick wall. Merle to merle breeding is accepted among that community -- and most still wonder why in the world they produce puppies that are blind, deaf, or both.

I know that theoretically speaking double merle x solid can create a 100% merle litter, but if you breed a merle x merle then you get a 50% merle, 25% double merle and 25% solid litter.
It doesn't work like that, in real life situations. Although every single breeding is different - usually Merle to merle produces mostly merles, if not all merles. Some produce 1 merle, the rest solid. Some produce mostly merles, 1 or 2 solids and 1 or 2 double merles. Toolalla kills all solids at birth. They usually kill the doubles, but not always. Most breeders do not kill the solids; and of those breeders they have NO clue why they produce solids. I've tried to explain, but it goes smoothly over their head.

Is double merle not as much of a concern to Coolie breeders in general?
Toolalla doesn't care, they are in it for the money. It worries some of the other breeders, but not enough to the point that they do not breed merle to merle.

And why in a working breed is color so important to the breeders?
Some don't care what color, as long as the dog works. BUT, most Coolie breeders do try to produce the merles. It's ignorance. They were told, have been told and continue to be told that the Coolie is an entire merle breed. This is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. It's not genetically possible, but some won't listen, some don't care, and it's like banging my head. Toolalla is the leading force in saying the Coolie is an entirely merle breed and that solids are throw-back. Which is NOT true, but Tabitha Parker will not listen, so it's no use --- they will continue to breed merle to merle and kill puppies.

To me color seems like the last thing a working dog breeder should be worrying about especially when dealing with a gene so dangerous as the merle gene.
Breeding self merle to self merle is better than breeding two merles that are irish spotted, pie bald or extreme pie bald. Some of the Coolie breeders are going to continue breeding merle to merle no matter what they are told. It's better to educate them as to what is safer, than to flame or argue with them. Of course, there are those breeders that won't listen no matter what.



Anyways, not saying this is the end all be all, but this is what I have heard after the whole incident at the Coolie forum. Apparently people thought I was another poster on a Coolie forum which I have NO clue where they got that idea. LOL

I can PM you who said this if you want the link, etc, but I don't want to bring in names... again. xD

Bottom line is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to breed 100% merles as merles are heterozygous. Any breeder that claims that is not telling the complete truth. You can get homozygous double merles with little white markings which are fine, but there is always that risk of producing a lethal white when crossing two merles. It seems too risky for my tastes and I know most people in other merle breeds do not agree with taking the risk. (though double dapples seem to be gaining popularity in dachshunds and I know of a few double merle shelties)

[Dekka]

Great post Laurelin..:D That never even crossed my mind. I quit reading as soon as I heard they killed all white pups at birth. If you can't find homes for deaf dogs..don't breed where there is a chance of deaf dogs!

[Laurelin]

Great post Laurelin..:D That never even crossed my mind. I quit reading as soon as I heard they killed all white pups at birth. If you can't find homes for deaf dogs..don't breed where there is a chance of deaf dogs!

That's my thoughts too. If you're going to risk breeding where you know the potential to produce deaf or blind (or both!) pups is there then you had better be sure you can take care of those pups and find them proper homes or keep them yourself. There is no need to make a cross like that as there are other alternatives available. If you decide to undergo it, then you should take full responsibility for your actions.

[Herschel]

Koolie Rescue:

http://www.koolie-tjukurpa-kennels.0catch.com/Koolie%20Rescue.htm

http://www.koolie-tjukurpa-kennels.0catch.com/



KOOLIE ADOPTION
Ken & Trudy Dive
Springwood NSW 2777
Ph: 02 47511007 Email:soapybath@froggy.com.au

[BostonBanker]

Laurelin posted everything I was going to say. I did some looking into Coolies for a while myself. There is a US breeder who has posted on this board a few times before (Yata Hae, who is quoted in the earlier post), and who was very nice in responding to my emails about their dogs.

I don't think there is every any justification for breeding merle to merle, as they do. I would never stand by a breeder who culled 25% of their puppies for a problem that they produced.

[Fran27]

I agree, it's horrible :(

Also, just to come back to your first post about health testing and dogs being bred to work... well, I think it's even more important that health testing is done when a dog is going to have to work.

[Laurelin]

I found the link!

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46295&page=2

[mrose_s]

see, this is why i come to you guys. I need your grouding before i go "but its pretty" because I know what I'm like :rolleyes:

The double merle thing also worried me, all the stuff I've read about not putting merle over merle makes sense and I'd rather go with a breeder that puts extra care on not allowing deaf/blind pups to be born.

i am definetly looking into a rescue, but at one stage I would love a dog that I know its lines and see its parents. And knowing me there is always the possibility of being sucked in by a deaf pup. As long as i could change my training technique slightly and have the dog focus a lot, it is still capable or anything.

so thats that breeder crossed off.

[BostonBanker]

see, this is why i come to you guys. I need your grouding before i go "but its pretty" because I know what I'm like


:lol-sign: I have a couple of friends whose job it is to beat me over the head when I get like that. It's hard not to just fall in love right away.

[PWCorgi]

I have a question about the breed, why do some people spell it koolie and other times it is coolie?

[BostonBanker]

http://www.germancoolies.com/Coolie_History.html

The first paragraph or two on this site sort of explains the confusion on the name. Also, some call it the Australian C/Koolie, and some the German C/Koolie.

[malndobe]

As long as i could change my training technique slightly and have the dog focus a lot, it is still capable or anything.

This really isn't correct, especially when talking about a herding breed. A deaf dog may be able to do some up close fetching work, but they are not going to be able to work at really long distances, drive, etc without the ability to hear the commands from the handler. Asking the dog to constantly look at you for visual cues, when you may be behind the dog, or 1/2 a mile away (or more) isn't going to work very well.

You could probably get creative and do something like multiple electric collars on the dog, and vibration on one side means go one way, vibration on another means go another way, etc but now you are depending on at least 3 collars, batteries not wearing out, the collar not slipping and changing position on the neck, etc.

For agility, flyball, obed, etc the dog would be fine. Even entry level herding trials the dog could probably pass. But it wouldn't be suitable for what it was (or should be) bred for, real life herding.

[TassieMerle]

Has anyone thought about what happens to any solid colored pups that are unfortunate enough to be born at Toolalla? Steer clear of Tjukurpa too. Their 'foundation' dogs came from pounds and rescues. Find an internet wayback machine. The owner of Tjukurpa admits it herself. The coolie is a wonderful breed just do your research. There are good coolies around.

[Samantha's pet]

Breeders kill puppies? And they admit it????:yikes: I am totally astonished. Killing a puppy is ..... I am speechless. I didn't know this went on. That should be against the law. Isn't it against the law? How do they kill them? It says they destroy them. Sounds like they totally demolish the puppies.

[Sapphire-Light]

Breeders kill puppies? And they admit it????:yikes: I am totally astonished. Killing a puppy is ..... I am speechless. I didn't know this went on. That should be against the law. Isn't it against the law? How do they kill them? It says they destroy them. Sounds like they totally demolish the puppies.

I agree, this is horrible :(

If I was a breeder of a breed with merles and a double merle puppy apears in one of my litters, i would spay it and it will be for pet only.

That's why some breeder recomed to breed merles with solids only.

That "destroy" part sound like they burn them alive or put a bomb to kill them.

[BostonBanker]

That's why some breeder recomed to breed merles with solids only.


That is why any responsible breeder would only breed merles to solids. There is absolutely no excuse to breed merle-to-merle in breeds where the problems can occur.

Someone else made the point earlier; many of the merle breeds are working dogs; why in god's name does the color matter? A black Aussie that can work is more worthy of being bred than a merle who can't.

[Laurelin]

That is why any responsible breeder would only breed merles to solids. There is absolutely no excuse to breed merle-to-merle in breeds where the problems can occur.

Someone else made the point earlier; many of the merle breeds are working dogs; why in god's name does the color matter? A black Aussie that can work is more worthy of being bred than a merle who can't.

Exactly. Even in show dogs, most breeders aren't so into the flashy markings that they would risk a merle x merle breeding. Well, any of the breeders I would consider responsible. I do know it happens often in dachshunds. (Double dapples)

I met the coolest Aussie rescue at Petco last year. He was a double merle who was deaf and born without eyes. Then he was dumped in a ditch to die because he was deformed. The really sad part is, that could have totally been prevented had the breeder not bred two merles together. It's completely preventable and a well known risk, so I don't see the point. A nice double merle is beautiful and a very flashy looking dog, but once again, why risk it? Is it so much better that it's worth the pups that have to suffer or be put out of their misery?

I understand in some cases it's hard to tell with cryptics and some sable merles. But if the dogs are known merles (and this is why it's extremely important to be aware of merling at birth- I know of sable merles that look sable as adults) then it should be avoidable.

The little Aussie looked a lot like this (though this is a sheltie): http://www3.telus.net/marpointe/seeker4doublesablemerle.jpg

[mrose_s]

on another forum i'm a member of I bought the subject of merle to merlse breeding. Got some great links. like http://www.lethalwhites.com
a great coolie breeder is also a member of that forums so looks like I've found my breeder.
The BEST thing that I got fromt hat thread was a heap of links and contacts to people associated with coolie rescue. So a rescue pup I'm guessing it will be :)

There is a GORGEOUS pup in rescue at the moment, 9 wks old, female, mostly white with some red merle patches, deaf but perfect coolie. I want :( lol if only she came along next year

[Mulgadowns]

I have also some information on my website re Coolie colours if you like to look at it :) http://coolibahcoolies.com/about4.html