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malmo
09-05-2007, 02:41 AM
I'm not a breeder and have no intention of becoming one. I'm the friend of someone who unwittingly rescued a pregnant chihuahua and is trying to do the right thing (read the story here (http://chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60564)). On BubbaTD's recommendation, we bought the book How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With and have been using it as our bible for the past few weeks. The three female puppies were born 7/16/07 and were 7 weeks old on Monday, 9/3/07. I hope someone with puppy experience can offer your opinions.

As mentioned in the other post, I get second pick of the litter to take home with me and my placid, slightly-anxious dog. Because of his temperament, and because I may be living in an apartment next year (grad school again), it's important to me to live with an adult dog who is calm, somewhat playful (but not overly so) and not too barky.

This weekend, to augment our observations of the pups, we attempted the Puppy Evaluation Test provided in the back of the book (and linked here (http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm) for your reference). Hopefully we performed it correctly, though we acknowledge that as first-timers, we may not have done everything right. Here's how they did.

http://www.malville.com/images/2007/20070826-ferocious.jpg

First pick has gone to the rescuer, who wishes to keep Momma Dog and the puppy that gets along best with her beagle mix (Puppy 1). In observing their play, Puppy 1 is definitely the bold and daring girl. She bounces and pounces and attacks and explores. That's her being "ferocious" above.


Social Attraction: 6 (Did not come at all)
Following: 6 (No following, or went away)
Restraint: 6 (No struggle, avoided eye contact)
Social Dominance: 3 (Cuddled up and licked face)
Elevation Dominance: 3 (No struggle, relaxed)
Retrieving: 2 (Chased object, did not return)
Touch Sensitivity: 4 (3-4 seconds)
Sound Sensitivity: 3 (Listens, locates sound, investigates)
Sight Sensitivity: 3 (Looks, attempts to investigate)

Totals: 6's=3, 5's=0, 4's=1, 3's=4, 2's=1, 1's=0

http://www.malville.com/images/2007/20070903-mcgee8.jpg

Puppy 2 was described originally as "calm but playful" and "a tail wagger." In play, Puppy 2 is the quiet observer. She often sits with the humans and watches the other puppies. She does sometimes engage in play, but less so than her sisters, and most often initiating play with her mother or other adult dogs instead of her littermates. Puppy 2 is extremely sweet, if a bit clingy, and the picture above shows her hiding out and watching the world -- her most common stance.


Social Attraction: 6 (Did not come at all)
Following: 6 (No following, or went away)
Restraint: 3 (Struggled, then settled, but with some eye contact)
Social Dominance: 4 (Squirmed, but did not lick at hands)
Elevation Dominance: 4 (Struggled, then settled)
Retrieving: 6 (Did not chase)
Touch Sensitivity: 5 (2 seconds)
Sound Sensitivity: 5 (Cringes, backs off, hides)
Sight Sensitivity: 5 (Runs away)

Totals: 6's=3, 5's=3, 4's=2, 3's=1, 2's=0, 1's=0

http://www.malville.com/images/2007/20070903-gemela3.jpg

Puppy 3 is the most vocal of all the puppies -- I've heard her shriek twice at being surprised (once when I picked her up without warning, and once when she realized a dog was behind her and got spooked). She has also barked in response to yappy neighbor dogs, and has a whole vocabulary of whines and growls. She is less aggressive then Puppy 1 and less shy than Puppy 3. Not surprisingly, she tested as best "all around dog" in the evaluations.


Social Attraction: 3 (Came readily, tail up)
Following: 3 (Followed readily, tail up)
Restraint: 4 (Struggled, then settled)
Social Dominance: 3 (Cuddled up, licked face)
Elevation Dominance: 5 (No struggle)
Retrieving: 6 (Did not chase)
Touch Sensitivity: 1 (10 seconds)
Sound Sensitivity: 4 (Located sound)
Sight Sensitivity: 3 (Looks curious, investigates)

Totals: 6's=1, 5's=1, 4's=2, 3's=4, 2's=0, 1's=1

Because of my concerns about barking and temperament, I have been leaning toward Puppy 2. I know -- everyone says not to choose the timid dog, but I have hopes, I guess, that even the timid dog can be carefully socialized and loved out of her shell. I have the time to devote to socialization at this point in my life and, of all the potential puppy homes, I think I have the most knowledge and experience in socialization and training. Milo met both of the puppies this weekend and he did just great with them.

http://www.malville.com/images/2007/20070903-mcgeemilo2.jpg

I keep telling myself -- even the bold and timid dogs have to find homes, right? Maybe I'm just deluding myself because I feel a bit attached to Puppy 2already. But, am I asking for a future of separation anxiety, owner-protection aggression, and hiding behind my legs?

Whatever puppy I adopt, I will love and protect and train her. I have been wanting a second dog companion for a long time, and this is the situation that has fallen into my lap. Can any of you look at those evaluation results and give your honest opinion? I would gladly adopt Puppy 3, if she is the better match.

Thank you very much for your time.

RedyreRottweilers
09-05-2007, 03:55 AM
In order to get proper results, this test must be carried out on day 49, by a person and in a place unfamiliar to the puppies. You can get a general idea at other ages, but these are the ideal conditions underwhich the test was designed to be used.

If you go to HERE, (http://workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm) you can learn more about the test and how to interpret results.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see page 2 of the test and basics of how to interpret the results.

malmo
09-05-2007, 10:01 AM
Ah, okay. Well, it was carried out in a room separate from the other puppies, but which the puppies have visited before. Also, they have met me one other time (a week ago) since their eyes have been open. So, probably the results aren't too accurate. Although, I think the tests were administered on day 48.

HoundedByHounds
09-05-2007, 10:07 AM
The lack of attraction and interest in people would bother me in a small lap breed who's only purpose really is to BE a people attracted love ;)

Factor in breed as well. A litter of Akita pups, the social disinterest would be typical of the breed...but in a friendly toy breed...it concerns me more.

bubbatd
09-05-2007, 01:25 PM
Glad you got the book ! It's hard for me to judge from afar ... but I'd go with #3 .

otch1
09-05-2007, 02:12 PM
Hi Malmo... from a training aspect, #3 will most likely be an easier pup to work with and acclimate to new situations. Having said that, it sounds like you've already got your eye on #2 though! Whichever puppy you choose, each will need a great deal of controlled socialization. You'll be careful as this is a fragile breed, but teaching them to walk on a leash, how to properly interact with strangers, other dogs and all basic obedience commands is as important for a Toy to learn, as it is for a larger breed. Most breeders don't let their Toys go until they are approx. 10 to 12 weeks of age. If you're getting yours sooner, recommend you spend one more day just sitting and observing the pups, the mother and see if #2 is developing a better sense of confidence and willingness to socialize, before deciding. They are pretty girls. You're very lucky!

FrenchKissed
09-05-2007, 05:41 PM
Those tests are designed for larger dogs, mostly working breeds. They seem to work best for herding and sporting imho. Toys are slower to mature (mentally/socially) many don't leave their mommas/itters until 10-16 weeks old, and their personalities are completely different. In all honestly the tests are not that applicable in your situation. They just don't transfer well to toys who have personalities and needs totally different from normal sized breeds, developed for working/hunting jobs.

malmo
09-05-2007, 06:26 PM
FrenchKissed,

Thanks for your reply -- I was wondering about that since, honestly, Puppy 2 seems to just be developing more slowly than the rest. Her ears were the last to stand up, she was the last with open eyes, etc. I wonder if her timidity is related to being a bit "younger" than her sisters.

There is some question as to when I will be taking a puppy home with me. I have the option of taking her whenever I want. Originally I was going to take her at 9 weeks (after the 8 week "fear stage" discussed in the book) and then begin intensive socialization. I have a vacation to visit family from September 26-October 2nd (Puppy's 10th week) and I had originally planned, as part of socialization, to take the puppy with me. It would be exposure to travel, riding in carriers, and my big, goofy family full of men, women, and children of all shapes and sizes who love to socialize dogs. The children are very well-mannered and all live with dogs in their own families. As a single woman, I wasn't sure how else to expose a puppy to children and it's important to me that she be socialized to them.

Now, though, I am thinking it is probably best to leave her with momma and littermates until I get home from my trip and then begin intensive socialization after that. If these toy breeds are maturing more slowly, maybe the socialization window will extend a bit longer and I won't be in such a rush to finish everything in 4 weeks? Also, maybe her fear week would be week 10, rather than week 8, and I would have made matters worse...?

In the meantime, rescuer friend has agreed to take Puppy 2 for more household excursions away from her littermates to build confidence and bravery. Hope it works.

malmo
09-05-2007, 06:29 PM
You'll be careful as this is a fragile breed, but teaching them to walk on a leash, how to properly interact with strangers, other dogs and all basic obedience commands is as important for a Toy to learn, as it is for a larger breed.

Otch,

Thanks for the reply. Boy did I learn that the hard way with my Maltese! Dogs are dogs, even if they look like little teddy bears.

I am in contact with a trainer who was recommended to me by my favorite holstic pet food store folks. She does some in-home training with new puppies, but also runs a weekly socialization play "party" which seems like it'd be more helpful for us. I've gotten pretty good with housetraining dogs and working on manners -- more than anything I need good, safe socialization opportunities. I need to let the dog be a dog.

Good reminders.

bubbatd
09-05-2007, 07:53 PM
Malmo .... you are wise to wait to bring her home . Iive never had a small breed , but from what I hear they should be with the Mom and litter longer .

HoundedByHounds
09-05-2007, 09:44 PM
Windy was the shy pup in my last litter at 2-5 weeks. Right around 6-9 weeks WOW did she change!

She would shut down on the table...new things really freaked her out, she wasn't that interested in or comfy with, patting, she would NOT approach the front of the whelping pen when I entered like the other two, etc.

But I spent EXTRA time with her to counteract what I saw...which was most unBeagle like ;) I carried her around with me as I went about my day....I took her and just her outside for short periods and allowed the kids to hold her too. It took a bit but she DID come out and play and as I said she was a perfectly normal bouncy into everything pup by age 8-9 weeks. I think separating her from her littermates thruout the day helped.

malmo
09-05-2007, 10:24 PM
Windy was the shy pup in my last litter at 2-5 weeks. Right around 6-9 weeks WOW did she change! <snipped> But I spent EXTRA time with her to counteract what I saw...which was most unBeagle like ;) I carried her around with me as I went about my day....I took her and just her outside for short periods and allowed the kids to hold her too. It took a bit but she DID come out and play and as I said she was a perfectly normal bouncy into everything pup by age 8-9 weeks. I think separating her from her littermates thruout the day helped.

Oh wow. I wish I could have more influence over what the friend is doing with the pups (but I've always been a control freak! hee...). As I said, when we noticed the timidity, she (the friend) agreed to spend more one-on-one time with her (Puppy 2). I know it's difficult, though, as she works and has her own new little Puppy 1 baby to fawn over. Pup 2's shyness is easily mistaken for relaxed/chilled personality... so hopefully she'll be able to bloom with a little more attention.

After all of your responses, I've 100% decided to leave whatever puppy I pick with the friend until week 11, after I get back from my vacation. Then I can take another week of vacation and get everyone settled in at home.

I am really leaning toward #2... She's super sweet and very people-oriented. On top of that, though, I feel she needs additional attention and the alternative homes are really not as good as I'd like. They don't do training (even house training!), they feed "Kibbles and Bits" and talk about how it's a good food, etc. I'd rather have Puppy 3 (the "easy" one) go to someone who will benefit from her easiness and not want to get rid of her for personality issues...

(This may change tomorrow. Who knows!? :) )

FrenchKissed
09-10-2007, 08:07 PM
Which ever one you choose, leave her with mom and litter mates as long as you can. I would not recomend bringing her home until at least 10 weeks old, preferably 12 weeks. However, this will only benefit her if her litter mates are there or if her mother is left with her.