Prrof that "they looked guilty" doesn't work

[mrose_s]

Everyone has heard the term "they know they did wrong because when i showed them they looked so guilty."

yesterday I went in to let the dogs out of the garage when I got home (we seperate mac and harry during the day), i had Buster and Mac in the garage yesterday and Sophie and harry out the back. I found one of mums sneakers in the dog bed that mac must have taken in there before my sister went to school.
I picked it up, walked out with it. Harry saw it and sunk to the floor, I walked over the mac "who did this?" she looks "guilty" and the same with buster and Sophie. Now I know Harry couldn't have done it, unless he perhaps did it before my sister went to school.

So i thought I'd experiment. I picked up a container of hari wax, I'd taken it off Harry the night before when I caught chewing it. I said "who did this?" and all 4 looked "guilty"

Now I KNOW it was only Harry that chewed on that. therefore, there is my proof that they actually DON'T understand they've done something wrong but merely pick up on your body langueage and tone of voice that they must have screwed up but don't actually link it to watever your holding

[Dekka]

LOl so true..poor dogs, making the all 'feel' guilty.

[Boemy]

Whereas if you'd tried that with a cat, it would be "look innocent." ;)

[mrose_s]

lol you got that about right

[milos_mommy]

I never say it an upset tone. I just kind of nonchalantley go "what's this?". Generally one dog will run or crouch, and one will just stare like "what?"

[Xerxes]

Whereas if you'd tried that with a cat, it would be "look innocent." ;)

Only after you'd pulled it from under the bed...or where ever it was hiding!:lol-sign:

[JennSLK]

It works with my two. Jazz smiles if she is guilty about something.

HOWEVER I know this isnt 100% wich is why I NEVER base a punishment or correction on who looks guilty or not. But 98% of the time if Jazz smiles when I ask her if she did it she did it and Emma will hang her head if she's the one. But because of the 2% I whont take that as a method.

[heartdogs]

Sequoyah never looks guilty. She just points to the hound.

[ron]

Sequoyah never looks guilty. She just points to the hound.


Why do I find that so easy to believe?:D

[BostonBanker]

Last night I suddenly noticed I had several large, loud flies in my bedroom. Upset because I wanted to go to sleepe, and talking mostly to myself, I asked "how did you little buggers get in here?". Meg slinked nervously out of the room, and I'm pretty certain she didn't smuggle the flies in;) .

[bcmoffatt]

I've never seen any sort of guilty look. Though I am familiar with the "O hai, I customized your shoe!" look.

[Hillside]

Man, I can't remember what book it was in ( It was either Stanley Coren or Brian Kilcommons), but there was an example of a dog trainer who though he knew better swore his did the same thing when he got into the garbage. Another trainer tried an experiment, he dumped the garbage out, let the dog loose and had the owner come in. Well, the dog had the same reaction as when he got into the garbage himself. He likened it to how childproof lighters work, up to a certain age, kids don't realize that it takes more than one step to do things. That being said, the phrases "were you bad" and "what did you do" would induce guilty smarls aplenty from our Dalmatians.

[houndlove]

By the time I brought Marlowe in to our lives, I'd abandoned this line of thinking and fully embraced the "newspaper method": If the dog does something naughty while I'm not looking, hit myself over the head with a newspaper and say "I will watch the dog more closely in the future". So Marlowe has never had to put on an appeasement display with me because I don't act scary when he does something bad out of my view (which incidentally he rarely does because he's been very well managed). He just looks at me like, "What? You want some of this garbage too? It's very tasty. Might I recommend the old milk carton? It has a lovely bouquet."

Conrad first came to us back when I was still a complete idiot about dogs and boy does he have his appeasement displays on a hair trigger.

It makes no difference what they've actually done, it is all about their conditioned responses to my body language. Marlowe never had to learn any, so he doesn't display them. Conrad learned them all too well and will whip them out at the slightest raised eyebrow (which Marlowe ignores because he never had to learn to associate that with anything bad happening).

[Doberluv]

It makes no difference what they've actually done, it is all about their conditioned responses to my body language.

Yes, absolutely. They don't know they did something morally wrong. LOL. Your tone, body language, demeanor (all those things, dogs are extremely in tuned with) are a predictor of a possible punishment (no matter how mild) since something in the past probably happened and when someone had that same demeanor....a scolding or anger of some sort at the same time. So, that body language becomes a predictor or conditioned positive punisher. lol.

[mrose_s]

I agree, poor Buster, when I got him i had no idea about all this. I'm still working through getting him over some things. He still freaks out when I ask him to do some things now. I feel awful everytime I see him get confused at nervous at what I'm asking. Usually it just means my speaking voice or sudden movments (like big strides or quick walking) is too much for him and I have to slow right down and make it really clear.

He's getting better though, the last 12 months or so he's really started to get his "i'm a happy dog" face for the first time ever.

[Doberluv]

I think Buster sounds like a dog that would benefit from clicker training and a LOT of capturing of behaviors whenever possible. The more subtle you can make any cues you do use, the better...a little bit of luring, a little shaping, where you reward for approximations and then work your way up...that sort of thing rather than a whole lot of commands or eliciting of whole, entire behaviors...I think in time, he'll get more "into" the training game better that way.