Passive Resistance

[Lilavati]

Hi, I'm new to the forums! /waves

I have a roughly 7 month old mixed breed dog of likely herding and spitz heritage. I've had her about a month. She's over all fantastic: house-breaking without a hitch, calm, little to no barking, doesn't jump, isn't possessive of food or toys, loves everyone. I've taught her sit, down, come, and leave it using mostly positive methods, including a clicker. She's generally submissive, sometimes to the point of being so submissive that she's so busy telling me I'm the boss that she won't do anything else. Usually I can get her to focus and move on with training. There's another problem:

Sometimes she just lies down and ignores me. Utterly. I don't exist. She doesn't always do this after we've been training awhile. Sometimes she'll do it right off the bat. I've tried treats (she'll actually refuse them in this mode), making interesting noises, even running around the yard shouting. Nothing. Sometimes she'll get up and wander off, or come over, but the minute I ask her to do something, she lies back down and ignores me. I'm aware that if this is my biggest problem with a rescued dog, I'm doing pretty well, but it's frustrating. Any ideas?

[squirtsmom]

She isn't seizing is she? She's not sick?

[Lilavati]

I really doubt it: the vet gave her a clean bill of health and it doesn't have the creepy look of a seizure or some other biologically induced behavior (which I've seen in other animals). Instead, She just lies down, just like she's going to rest, and puts her head on her paws. Sometimes she sighs. It really feels like she's saying: "I don't want to do anything right now. Go away." That would be fine if she didn't do it at the beginning of some training sessions, or decide to do it all day (she gets up and does other things, but when I come out and give her a command, she'll do it again).

[Cheetah]

What kind of treats are you using to try and get her attention?

[Lilavati]

I usually have a pocket full of mixed treats: various store-bought brands that I'm testing to see if she likes, kibble, and her all time favorites--string cheese and Wellness brand jerky-type treats. When I first introduced her to string cheese she would do anything for it, but it seems the fascination has waned, and sometimes even that won't get her to act. Or she'll do one or two things, a few little pieces of string cheese, and then lie down and refuse to respond to more cheese or anything else.

Adorable corgi by the way!

[Cheetah]

Thanks! >^_^<

Have you tried a bit of hot dog, or a tiny piece of sardine? Most dogs love the stinky stuff best.

[Lilavati]

Ok, I tried hot dogs this morning. She did her ignoring me think but perked right up when she saw those hot dogs!

She did get bored and tried to wander off after a few commands, though again, the hot dogs brought her right back when she saw I had more little pieces of them for her.

Sooooo . . . problem half solved. But I have some concerns:

I really feel like I'm bribing her instead of rewarding her

I don't want to be dependent on something has unhealthy and high value as hot dogs

If she needs hot dogs in the backyard, what do I use when there are more distractions?

Any suggestions?

[Cheetah]

Chop the hot dogs into TINY cubes... think cat treat size. You don't have to use only hot dogs either... find something she likes just as much. Maybe some microwaved sardine pieces, some chicken breast?

Also, it starts with "bribing", but you'll start weaning her off the treats once she starts listening consistently, and once she knows what you want of her in the back yard, you'd move up to something with a couple distractions, then a place with a few more. >^^;<

[elegy]

are there any games she likes to play? tug, fetch, whatever? i try to use a lot of play in training with my dogs. it makes things more interesting and faster-paced for them.

[CanadianK9]

Well just blatantly ignoring you and laying down dead weight or sitting weight is called grounding, it can be one of 2 things she could be testing you, or she could be fearful of something, you have to find out which it is and then the solution is eaier to come up with

[Lilavati]

It seems to be a little of both. Sometimes it really just seems to be an attitude problem, but she'll also do it at times when she's just not getting something: she'll lie down and lick her nose anxiously. I've always interpreted the latter as her being nervous because she's confused, and switch over to something easier. Usually, but not always, she'll snap out of it. The former, when she just lies down and ignores me, is a bit more worrisome.

Would it be anthropomorphizing to speculate that perhaps the attitute problem comes from having been nervous and frustrated at other training sessions? I.e. should I stop doing new stuff for a while and build her confidence with stuff she already knows?

The hot dogs seem to be doing the trick (yes, little cat-treat sized bits) though she'll definately still wander off on occasion, but that seems more a distraction issue. I also picked up some kind of lamb-based sausage-like treat that comes in rolls today at the pet store, and she seems to find that almost as inticing as the hot dogs.

As for toys/games, I've been teaching her to play tug to get her to interact more in play. She's quite intelligent, but very inclined to play by herself. In terms of using a toy as a reward, the problem has been once she has it, she wanders away to roll it around/toss it in the air/chew on it and forgets I exist. She'll give it to me if I ask, but after a few repetitions, she'll stop doing things for the toy, since she doesn't want it for 30 seconds, she wants it for the next 5 minutes. I haven't managed to teach her to fetch for the same reason :(

[VWilson]

It seems to be a little of both. Sometimes it really just seems to be an attitude problem, but she'll also do it at times when she's just not getting something: she'll lie down and lick her nose anxiously. I've always interpreted the latter as her being nervous because she's confused, and switch over to something easier. Usually, but not always, she'll snap out of it. The former, when she just lies down and ignores me, is a bit more worrisome.

Would it be anthropomorphizing to speculate that perhaps the attitute problem comes from having been nervous and frustrated at other training sessions? I.e. should I stop doing new stuff for a while and build her confidence with stuff she already knows?

The hot dogs seem to be doing the trick (yes, little cat-treat sized bits) though she'll definately still wander off on occasion, but that seems more a distraction issue. I also picked up some kind of lamb-based sausage-like treat that comes in rolls today at the pet store, and she seems to find that almost as inticing as the hot dogs.

As for toys/games, I've been teaching her to play tug to get her to interact more in play. She's quite intelligent, but very inclined to play by herself. In terms of using a toy as a reward, the problem has been once she has it, she wanders away to roll it around/toss it in the air/chew on it and forgets I exist. She'll give it to me if I ask, but after a few repetitions, she'll stop doing things for the toy, since she doesn't want it for 30 seconds, she wants it for the next 5 minutes. I haven't managed to teach her to fetch for the same reason :(


As you said she is intellligent, and it is merely a tactic to discontinue training.
There is no more to it than that.
If you wish to continue training with food methods, then you will need to cut back on her food, to a point that she becomes interested in working for food.
A hungry dog is a driven dog.
A dog with a full stomach has no interest in working for food.

Also, you probably need to use more praise. which will add more incentive.

No matter the method used, praise tends to be an under utilized incentive.


Val

[Dekka]

Is she an only dog? I have never had a dog do that. But I have had a dog get 'distracted' and I just turn to the next dog and give that one the treat and work the other dog.

Training before meal times is good, is your dog overweight? A dog will only work for something that is valuable to them. Also I wouldn't bribe with food ever. I only reward with food.

[Lilavati]

She's been doing much better on the new treats and I have also reduced her regular food, though because of her history (see below) I'm careful not to do so too radically. However, she seems much more lively and interested perhaps because hot dogs are something really, really wants. I will also try increasing praise, I'm not a really emotive person, so that may take some self-training!

To answer your questions Dekka:

She's an only dog, and actually, she's not overweight. In fact, when I got her about 5 weeks ago, she was noticably underweight and I was told to put her on better food and keep an eye on it. She has filled out nicely since, and begun to grow . . . rather startlingly fast, actually.

[Dekka]

If you have only had her for 5 weeks (and congrats on the growth :D) I wouldn't worry too much. You are still very new to her. Hot dogs are great, but I would still look for other treats (and she may develop some toy drive as she settles in (will she play with toys on her own?) Hot dogs aren't really very good for dogs. I make up a 'trail' mix when training. Some top trainers claim (and seems to, from my experience) that dogs work better when they aren't sure which treat is coming. I buy liver, boil it 10 min then bake it in the oven till it is the right consistency. I buy the salmon roll over rolls (like the natural balance rolls) and also cut up any left over meat and cheese in the fridge. Often I will add hot dogs to the mix too.

My dogs are small, so treats can end up being a good portion of the diet (Dekka only eats about 3 table spoons of food a day..total) so healthiness of the treats is very important.

good luck, and keep us posted (and we always loovve pics!)

[Lilavati]

Since I only have a film camera, I just have a few pictures right now (need to get more developed) here are a couple of the better ones (I think this roll of film was rather old, the exposures were off)

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w317/Piye_bucket/Sarama1.jpg

And here she is in her favorite place in the world: relaxing in her puppy pool!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w317/Piye_bucket/sarama3.jpg

[Dekka]

Aww what a great pose..lounging in the pool :D. How old is she?

[Lilavati]

Hard to say. The rescue got her from a kill shelter in a rural county downstate, so she effectively came with no information at all, not even a name. The vet has hazarded that she's about 7-8 months old, but can only say for certain that she is older than 6 months and very likely younger than 9 months.

[Xerxes]

Two things...

She might just be getting bored with the training. If she's super smart, which it sounds like she is, you need to keep the sessions really, really short. Think 3-4 minutes at a time. Vary the routine. And then PLAY! (this method of training works incredibly well...)

If she's young, she might be getting tired as well. The same above applies. Short training sessions. Then play, play, play. My training sessions with my dog lasted 5 minutes max, and only once a day. Teaching "heel" took a total of maybe 50 minutes, stretched out over 2 weeks. Proofing and improving takes longer, of course.

And you always need to be more interesting than anything else around...

[Doberluv]

Would it be anthropomorphizing to speculate that perhaps the attitute problem comes from having been nervous and frustrated at other training sessions? I.e. should I stop doing new stuff for a while and build her confidence with stuff she already knows?

No. Absolutely, that is what may well be going on. I just saw this post after I already wrote my long winded one. (below)The licking of her nose is a calming signal. She's very likely stressed.

About praise: Praise is good. It tells the dog she just did something right. However, it is not generally an adequate reinforcer. Pay her with something she really loves. (which can vary from instance to instance) What does she want at the time for any given context? Use that sometimes and treats other times. Praise is a predictor of non-punishment to a dog who was traditionally trained with very compulsive methods so it is appreciated. But again....to get her engaged and wanting to repeat something, pay her lavishly with high value rewards. Mix them up. Don't always use the same thing. Use less valuable things for easy tasks or in the beginning of a session. The higher value things will decrease the value of the lesser value things even more, so think how you're going to use reward.

It could be a couple of things; one, that she is having a hard time engaging and being interested. And it can also be that she was handled too sternly in conjunction with training in the past or just has a very soft temperament. (She is not scheming in a logical way to get out of a training session.)

When you're giving a command, what is your demenor like? Are you sure she knows what the cue means? If there is any confusion in her mind, this may be causing her stress. If there's any discrpency between your cue and your body language, that could cause her stress. If she is submissive....how you described, the turning away, lying down, ignoring you is a calming signal....dog "speak," which is her attempt to "calm" you, to avoid any possible conflict that she may perceive may transpire. She may be anticipating some sort of conflict due to her history....maybe she was treated too sternly and when you give commands, they are the predictor to her of something worse to come. (depending on how she was handled in the past) and if she's a very soft dog. What do you do when she ignores you or lies down facing away from you?

Watch your body language too that you don't send messages that you are being "intrusive" or threatening. (not that you would mean to) But try standing a little at an angle rather than head on with her. Don't stare at her in the eyes when you're trying to get her to do something. Don’t bend over and toward her. You can even get down low, turn away a little bit....show her that you don't intend any kind of conflict. And mostly just give her some more time to find out that the things you do or how you act aren't predictors of anything scary or forceful, but instead all good.

I would lessen the use of verbal commands for a while, shorten the sessions to just 5 minutes or less but throw in a couple minutes several times during the day...one fun trick and call it good. Use luring or hand signals instead of verbal if you can and later, when she’s getting onto a skill, add in your verbal cue. I'd try to use a lot of capturing of behavior and using a clicker rather than so much eliciting by commands....just for a while until she gets to know you better. If you can entice her with a game-like luring to do something, great. Prove to her that training sessions are non-stressful, (not that they are, but maybe she thinks they're going to be) (?)only last a few minutes (at first) and are nothing but fun. Make a list of the things she likes best; belly rubs, massages, special treats, a novel toy and use those for rewards. If she is not so terribly interested right now in training (because of a possible bad history with it), reward her by ending the session soon. (FOR NOW) Gradually, as she is convinced it's all fun and games, you can increase the time....as she holds her interest better.

I don't spend much time on the forum anymore but did want to throw in what I thought may be part of the culprit. I think in time, she'll be fine.

Very cute pictures. She looks like she's having a wee of a time. Kudos to you for giving her such a great home.

[Lilavati]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Doberluv, I'll try to put it into action. Although I try for 'firm but friendly' with my tone of voice while training, I probably haven't watched my body language enough. And its possible that my 'firm' voice is a little intimidating . . . anyway, thanks for the tips! I'll try shortening my sessions too . . .

With regards to your implied question about whether she was previously trained, that's a mystery that my fiance, the rescue and I have puzzled over. She came to me knowing no commands, and only partially housetrained (she was fully house trained in two weeks) . . BUT . . . she walked very well on the leash, was crate trained, didn't jump, and had excellent food manners. So excellent, in fact, that they worried me. The first time I fed her, she looked at the bowl, looked hopefully at me, looked at the bowl, looked at me . . . I was trying to figure out if she wasn't hungry, didn't like the food . . . then it dawned on me . . . I stepped back and said, 'Okay, you can eat' and she set to it with vigor. She has done it every time she's been fed since. She'll let me take food right out of her mouth too. I have little doubt that someone taught her that. But who, why, and by what method are unknown. Best guess, from where she came from, is that she was a farm dog and in rural Virginia . .well, I have to admit that I doubt 'purely positive' was the favored method. Unfortunately, we'll never know, just as we'll never know why she ended up at a hell-pit of a kill shelter.

[Doberluv]

Well, she may just have a soft temperament. If she's reinforced for things you like, she will tend to repeat them. You don't have to use a firm voice. I know a lot of people say that. But, my Doberman is quite a "driven" dog, distractable etc etc and I whisper most cues to him. When we're walking and I ask for a down, it's a very soft (so no one can hear me), "down." And/or a little tiny flicking downward motion with a finger or two. Very subtle. As long as the dog is reinforced for behavior you want, it will be repeated regardless of what kind of voice you use. If a dog gets use to loud, he learns loud is the cue. (Not you, but on another thread I was reading.) If he gets reinforced for the behavior elicited by a soft voice, the soft voice becomes the cue.

It sounds like she was taught manners where her food bowl is concerned. That's good. But like you say, it could have been with too much sterness for her temperament. Who knows?

I think as you bond more....after some time and doing things together, she'll become more engaged with you. Obedience practice, making it all fun and rewarding really helps...not only with the obvious: the skills, but in indirect ways as well. It helps establish you as her leader. When positive, gentle and rewarding methods are used, training becomes a reward in and of itself. It's just a whole lot of fun. Dogs love to learn things and to follow their leader. They also love to earn their food and other resources. I think she'll be fine. She's new to your household and everything. She's probably still adjusting. If you like to read and learn, I recommend very highly the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. It's excellent and will be a great help. A small price to pay and soooooooooo worth it. Keep us posted on how she progresses.

[Lilavati]

Will do so, and thank all of you for the advice and help. I'll put up pics and updates as they become available!

[Shadow101]

Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson.
I agree^. It will help you with preety much EVERY thing.Cant wait for more pics and just try bonding and having fun.Any more Questions?

[Lilavati]

Actually, you all ave answered my only pressing question. As I mentioned in my original post, she's so well-behaved most of the time that its actually kinda creepy coming from a 7 month old pup. Not to say that she's a perfect angel, but I wouldn't have dared dream of a dog so well mannered so early on.

[silverpawz]

Sounds like she has you figured out.

You do some training, she's into it and having fun, then suddenly she gets "bored" of the treats you have and ignores you............so you bring out something better, act happier, try to engage her more.

Cause and effect. She ignores you, you produce better treats and praise more. So of course she'll follow the 'rules' and ignore to see if you'll produce something better than what you're currently offering. She knows the game.

How much attention do you give her on a regular basis? I'd cut it in half. Make her work for it (sit first, down first, etc.). Start getting her interested in what you're doing, instead of the other way around.

Stop training sessions before she has a chance to ignore you.

Use her kibble as her reward. If she only eats when you're working with her, then I'm willing to bet she'll start to think training time is AWESOME.

You just need to get on her radar. Stop playing her game and teach her to play yours.