help with dog attacking people

[austin1]

my dog is a 2 1/2 year old english springer spaniel, and we are probably going to have to get rid of him unless a miracle of some sort happens.

he's super protective of our house, and has attacked 2 different people, on 2 different occasions, when they entered the house. one he scraped up, and the other he probably would have put in the hospital had the man not been wearing a really thick coat, which my dog still managed to cut him through.
we put him in training with electric collars, the whole deal, and promised ourselves we'd be more careful when new people come into the house.

today, he attacked me, and almost took my first two fingers off, because I tried to put him in his crate when he didn't want to go. unless something happens quick, we're getting rid of the dog--he's loving and sweet one minute, but he's dangerous and unpredictable and we can't deal with it.

does anyone have any help or advice for us?

[jess2416]

behaviorist, or you need to see a vet to rule out any medical conditions..

[Herschel]

we put him in training with electric collars, the whole deal,

It could be rage, but I highly doubt it. A lot of times behavioral problems in Springers get labeled as rage but that often isn't the case. I have a feeling your harsh/physical punishments have created severe fear aggression. http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

For example, if someone comes to your house and you're using the electric collar, if your dog barked or reacted towards the person you shocked. In the dog's mind, it was afraid of the person--then it felt pain (from the collar) as a result of seeing the person. Thus, the dog sees the person as bad and reacts to remove the pain.

Electric collars in the wrong hands are extremely dangerous and your dog is a great example of a dog ruined by such brutality.

Find a certified behaviorist. Call your vet and ask them if they can refer you to anyone. Otherwise, search here to find someone that can refer you to a qualified behaviorist: http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/default.aspx

No more shock collars, please. You're going to end up killing this dog. (If you drop it off at a shelter, they're going to perform a behavior test. Most likely, it will fail due to its past history of receiving punishment, and have to be put down) You have a chance to save this dog, please get the necessary help!

[Doberluv]

It could be rage, but I highly doubt it. A lot of times behavioral problems in Springers get labeled as rage but that often isn't the case. I have a feeling your harsh/physical punishments have created severe fear aggression. http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

For example, if someone comes to your house and you're using the electric collar, if your dog barked or reacted towards the person you shocked. In the dog's mind, it was afraid of the person--then it felt pain (from the collar) as a result of seeing the person. Thus, the dog sees the person as bad and reacts to remove the pain.

Electric collars in the wrong hands are extremely dangerous and your dog is a great example of a dog ruined by such brutality.

Find a certified behaviorist. Call your vet and ask them if they can refer you to anyone. Otherwise, search here to find someone that can refer you to a qualified behaviorist: http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/default.aspx

No more shock collars, please. You're going to end up killing this dog. (If you drop it off at a shelter, they're going to perform a behavior test. Most likely, it will fail due to its past history of receiving punishment, and have to be put down) You have a chance to save this dog, please get the necessary help!

Absoltely. What a shame that yet again, another dog is wasted because of this kind of treatment. I sure hope a behaviorist can help.

[austin1]

first and foremost, I really, really do not appreciate you labeling me as abusive and brutal without really having any idea as to what went into my dog's training, and actually, I'm really hurt. we never used the electrical collar for discipline--and I mean, NEVER. the collar was only ever used for limited periods of time, to reinforce commands he already knew, but on occasion, chose to ignore; sit, stay, come, etc. the electrical collar was used on the recommendation of a certified dog trainer, who instructed us VERY carefully in it's use and application, and we (and the dog) went for regular training sessions. we NEVER, EVER used the collar in the manner you suggested, which is, I think, mean and wrong. my dog was NEVER brutalized or mistreated in such a way, and I very much resent you being so keen to assume, and throw those labels on me without knowing the full story.


my goal by posting here was to seek out advice so that we wouldn't have to give the family pet up; I was not expecting people to jump down my throat and accuse me of not loving my animal. for the record, I do love my dog, and I want only the best for him, which is why I came here seeking advice. so please, if anyone has any constructive advice for us that doesn't involve pointing out that we are, in fact, horrible and abusive dog owners, it would be much appreciated.

thank you,
austin

[noludoru]

That was constructive advice. Very few people here will condone any use of an electric collar or physical punishment of any sort. If you're looking for pats on the back, you won't find it with us. The posts above are not rude or insulting.

As everyone said above, please consult a behaviorist.... I bet Otch (otch1) can give you some great suggestions for your area.

[Zoom]

I would find a behaviorist that specializes in positive reinforcment, but I have an uneasy feeling that your dog may end up needing to be put down. Attacks so severe that it broke skin through a winter coat just for walking in the door and then almost taking off two of your fingers just for going in a crate are not things that a stable dog does. Whether it's fear-based aggression or times where the dog just "snaps", you need to be aware.

He may have some medical reason behind it, possibly pituitary, maybe thyroid. I would get a complete blood panel done on him to rule out those issues. Then, at the very least, find the behaviorist and give them a completely honest history of your dog. They will probably do an assessment of sorts and give you somewhere to go from there. It might be to the vet for a final appointment, it might be a strict regiment of behavior modification techniques, I couldn't say.

I hope for the best for you, but urge you to prepare for the worst. This dog has presented himself to be a huge risk and if you ever have children present, are you prepared to deal with the consequences if he "snaps" around them?

[Tazwell]

Unfortunately, the way I see it, if your dog is to the point that he will severely harm his own owners (without a medical problem like stated above), there's really nothing you can do to ever trust that dog again. In most cases, this is the point where a dog would be put down. If you are willing to work, and work, and work at controlling this problem, watch him like a hawk, and properly confine him for the rest of his life, then by all means- do it to save his life. Just remember that more than likely, he'll be a ticking bomb around people-- and he'll need to be carefully controlled. You just never know when a kid or even an adult will do something unconsciously to trigger him.

The first step is to get to the root of the problem with a behaviorist. Please do so, for his sake and yours!

[Dekka]

Did you do bite inhibition training when he was young... did this just start happening one day? Could it be medical. (and yes some dogs do get aggressive with the use of e collars, my breed is one that can 'turn' mean with positive punishment) If you get to a good behaviouralist they can help you. There are people who specialize in rehabilitating (not supressing) this kind of dog.

Good luck

[austin1]

he's done this since puppyhood, but a five pound baby can't do much damage; now, he can. theas a puppy, when he got angry, he used to snap, growl and lunge at us; we always disciplined him fairly, but firmly, and figured he'd outgrow it. he's always been a VERY dominant and VERY protective dog, but we didn't start using collar until he was about a year old, and only then because, like zoom said, we do have alot of children present. he's always been agressive; we tried to train him out of it, but I guess it didn't work. we'll look into finding a behaviorist

thanks to all

[elegy]

yeah, i'd go with a behaviorist, and to be honest, i'd want a veterinary behaviorist, not just somebody who hung out a shingle. you might try calling your vet to see if they can refer you- mostly you find them at vet schools.

until that happens, i'd do what you can to control resources and not put the dog in a situation where he can get himself in trouble. that can be really hard to do if the dog is willing to bite his owners. i'd absolutely prevent him from having any access at all to strangers.

i wish you the best of luck. there are quite a few springers out there with really scary temperaments. i think i a big fat chunk of that is purely genetics. it's really sad, especially when its your dog.

[bubbatd]

Keep us posted ..............

[Herschel]

I apologize if my post came off as unhelpful or too critical. I stand by my post and assure you that the "certified" trainer that you found wasn't experienced with your type of dog. Aggression issues can not be helped with punishment or aversives. You need to find the source of the problem--is it medical? fear? dominance?

Did you read the articles I posted? Also, did you search for a trainer on the APDT website?

If you must give the dog up, please contact the English Springer Spaniel Rescue. There are people that have years of experience dealing with problems such as yours and may be able to help your dog. http://www.springerrescue.org/

[otch1]

Hi Austin. So sorry to hear you're going through this. I've had a handful of families/clients in your situation, over the years. This is a certainly something to address with a veterinary behavior specialist. I believe you're past the point of addressing this through training alone and need to curb this behavior immediately before he's safe to handle in a training setting again. There are many factors that can come into play here, genetics/breeding line, thyroid, testosterone, serotonin levels. Most behaviorists will have you do blood work with a qualified vet first. All undesirable behaviors have a learned component, but you've been dealing with this for quite some time so I strongly urge you address the medical aspects of this now. Often you can find a good referal through your veterinarian or a University veterinary medicine program. You're welcome to pm me if you like, for any contact numbers. In the meantime, keeping him safely confined and using cautious handling methods will keep everyone safe from a repeat attack.

[Doberluv]

I'm sorry Austin, that my post came off as though I thought you were a brute. It's just that I've been reading so many posts lately as well as seeing things in my own personal surroundings by people who are automatically turning to "corrective" or "firm" measures when handling dogs and dogs with issues. I see dogs become aggressive through these handling tactics of force, stern, aversive "corrections" and even worse.

I realize that thyroid, neurotransmitters and such and temperament can definitely come into play. I guess I'm just frustrated at seeing a whole lot of force and punishment used on dogs and see the systematic, predictable outcome of aggressive or defense aggressive displays as a result. Everytime I see one of these dogs, I give a big sigh and say to myself, "Here we go again."

I don't actually get from your post that you are brutally attacking your dog and I did not say that I did. But some dogs have temperaments which can't tolerate as much force as others. And e-collars are not advised remedies by most qualified behaviorists. They can cause a lot of damage and distrust. Controlled, correct, whatever. They are not a kind of thing which builds trust and security in a dog, IMO.

If your dog started out as a puppy being aggressive, it should have been addressed then, as it's rare that a young puppy shows it. With unstable temperaments, if that's what it is, certain compensations need to be made and usually require a behaviorist to guide you. I don't blame you for not dealing with it then. It's a hard thing to see.

I am sorry that this has happened and I fear what might become of your dog. I do hope you are able to get help and everyone is safe.

[squirtsmom]

You said in your first post that you might have to get rid of him if he do esn't change. Knowing how bad the dog is now, where would you get rid of the dog to?

[otch1]

I just wanted to say I understand your frustration Doberluv!! Often, without proper diagnosis, evaluations, or an inexperienced trainers guidance, popping an e-collar or a prong on these types of dogs is a disaster in the making. You're absolutely right! I just have a hunch about this dog, (I know, silly since I haven't met him or the owner) but I'm hoping a veterinary behavior specialist will be able to help them. In some cases, these dogs are made quite manageable with combined drug therapy and continued training. I've worked very closely with several excellent vets when dealing with a dog like this. If this is not resolvable, at least the owner's done everything possible and within reason, for the well being of the dog. Good luck and be safe!

[austin1]

if we did decide to give him up, it would be to a springer rescue group, and most certainly not a shelter, and we would make sure to be clear on his entire history. before making that decision, we're going to the vet with him to check for any medical issues, and then getting referrals on a behaviorist who can maybe help

doberluv and herschel, I appreciate your apologies, and I will take yours, and everyone else's advice for my dog--we're certainly going to try everything we can.

[SisMorphine]

if we did decide to give him up, it would be to a springer rescue group, and most certainly not a shelter, and we would make sure to be clear on his entire history. before making that decision, we're going to the vet with him to check for any medical issues, and then getting referrals on a behaviorist who can maybe help

doberluv and herschel, I appreciate your apologies, and I will take yours, and everyone else's advice for my dog--we're certainly going to try everything we can.
As a person who has worked in a few different breed rescues: If the dog has a bite on a human it will not be accepted into rescue. If it has bites on MULTIPLE humans it will be PTS even if it is accepted into rescue (some rescues will accept simply to PTS if it's in everyone's best interest).

Unfortunately e-collar training, especially on an already fearful dog, can do more damage than good. And I know that you were advised to do so by a trainer and I am sorry about that. It is that trainer's fault, not yours. You tried. You cared. You sought out help. Unfortunately that help was misinformed and you did not get the tools you really needed to help turn your dog around.

Look for another trainer in your area who focuses more on positive methods and does not use the e-collar. Basically if the dog has bites in on people then your choices are either you can figure out how to manage the dog or the dog gets put down.

I've been in a similar position to yours and it blows. I hope you can find a new trainer to help you.

[Rosefern]

As a person who has worked in a few different breed rescues: If the dog has a bite on a human it will not be accepted into rescue. If it has bites on MULTIPLE humans it will be PTS even if it is accepted into rescue (some rescues will accept simply to PTS if it's in everyone's best interest).

As a person who has worked in breed rescue, and numerous all-breed rescues: I have to disagree. Not all rescues operate like this. We'll take in a dog that has bitten before - it definately is not a "If the dog has bitten, we won't take it," sort of deal...

-Rosefern

[elegy]

rosefern, and you'll adopt them out? aren't you concerned about the liability?

[Rosefern]

rosefern, and you'll adopt them out? aren't you concerned about the liability?

Depends on the situation. But out of the dogs that we've taken that have bitten, we probably adopt out 80-90%. We're highly selective of the home environments that we'll allow our dogs to be adopted out to...it must be a 100% match - and it must be for the best interest of the dog. Most of these "bite" situations were because the human (usually little humans) were provoking the dog, the dog had enough, and snapped. In those cases, the dog won't be placed with children...

-Rosefern

[elegy]

that's awful brave of you.

just because they're not placed with children doesn't mean that they won't come in contact with children. not long after i adopted luce, i was out walking her and some small child came running up out of nowhere, no parent anywhere, and flung his arms around luce's neck and kissed her before i even knew what was happening. thank god she's the dog she is, because she could have eaten that kid's face.