Possessive dogs

[Devoted]

I have been training dogs for about a year and a half now and learn something new every training. My method of training is with a training collar, (choke chain). The biggest problem I am having is with dogs that are territory possessive. That is with their owners and homes. I am currently obedience training 2 dogs that have bitten children and have been the agressor in both cases. Most cases are in the owners home when the owner is present. I only like to use a shock collar as a last resort, but I am struggling in these cases. One dog is a Dachshund and the other is a Jack Russel. Any help would be appreciated. My goal is to make good dogs better and bad dogs good.:confused:

[Jynx]

while you may have a hard time with the dogs, it sounds to me that the owners need more training than the dogs.

Since the owner is present, they obviously know these dogs are ticking time bombs and aren't defusing the situation before it happens.

While your goal may good, in this case, I'd be working on the owners to step up to the plate and realize that one day, these two could possibly cost her her home and their lives.

sorry just rambling here
diane

[Doberluv]

My goal is to make good dogs better and bad dogs good.

Then please don't use a shock collar on these dogs. Do you actually use a choke chain on tiny dogs like this? Have you or the owners used punishment or "corrections" in association with these dogs' biting issues?

What background do you have in actual behaviorism? The reason I ask is that training dogs obedience and solving complex behavior issues are two different things.

Are you sure they're biting on account of territory or possessiveness? Is there a fear factor involved or a prey factor? What seems to trigger the biting? What are the children doing at the time? How much socialization did these dogs have with children from birth to about 5 months of age? How much have they been around children since? What have the owners done when this happened? What is their reaction to the dogs?

Personally, I would recommend you consult with a certified behaviorist with a degree in behavior. It's hard over the Internet to assess something like this when no one can see the dogs or the interactions going on. IMO.

I would not recommend that a family with children keep such dogs, to be honest with you. I think they can probably be rehabilitated, but I wouldn't mess with risking them remaining in a home with children or where children frequent....maybe re-home them to someone who can deal with it.

I do hope things go well. Kudos to you for taking this on!

[Devoted]

I attended school in New York. I do admit most of the training when out there was basic obedience, which in most cases is the first stepping stone when training a dog for any behavior issue. I do agree bahavior issues and basic obedience are 2 different types of training. In my book basic obedience is a piece of cake. I wish that is all I dealt with. but in most cases people don't want to spend the $$ till they have a problem. That is when they call me. Yes there are a lot of questions you asked and some of them I do not have answers because I have just started the training with these dogs. Yes I do put chock chains on small dogs like a Dachshund. I use a small link and am very careful with the corrections. It is not as much how hard you jerk, but the timeing and the voice commands that go with it. I will use different types depending on the neck and the skin of the dog. I have only one time used a shock collar on a dog and I used the smallest setting. One may ask that if a shock collar is so bad then why is it that bark collars and invisable fences use the same method. They are used when correcting a problem behavior. Anyway Like I said before I only used mine one time and as a last resort when I feel all else has failed. You made the comment that the owners should nip this behavior and that I should train the owner. Well that's the case all the time. Dog Training is training the owner, that's about 75% of it. but bottom line is that they failed some place down the line and now they don't know what to do so they call me. 7 years ago before I started training dogs I had to put asleep my own dog and that was the hardest thing I ever did. I'll do everything I can to prevent that from happening to someone else and that is why I became a dog trainer. You can't just always take the easy ones. I train only part time and mainly for the love of dogs.:)

[Dekka]

The one thing with IF and bark collars (tho I use neither) is that the timing is always perfect, and the dog can choose to not bark (there is no confusion) or leave. But pain often makes aggressive behaviour worse. IF can cause reactive dogs to become aggressive if they get excited by passing dogs, then get a shock. They can associate the shock with the passing dog...creating a serious issue.

[tessa_s212]

If you want to help these dogs, refer this owner to a real trainer, or more preferably, a behaviorist. One that knows and understands dog behavior and what drives it. One that knows how to address the underlying deeper issues that is causing these behaviors without the use of detrimental tools such as choke chains and shock collars.

[Doberluv]

I understand all too well that the owners need to be trained to train their dogs. But using aversives to treat aggression is NEVER used by behaviorists. There are incredible consequences and fall out by the use of "corrections." That is not the way to treat aggression. There are so many effective ways to treat and train dogs using motivation and reward, pairing associations which are positive with the object of the dog's reactivity. And ways to set up the environment that the dog is in so that he can become desensatized or conditioned to a new way of being....a way which works better for HIM.

This is what I was getting at when asking about the use of aversives for these dogs.

The way dogs learn by association... so very strongly, can backfire on you when you associate pain with children. And make the problem escalate. It may be that the behavior will be supressed for a time, but it does nothing to eliviate the underlying cause. That will still be there and can make the dog go off like a time bomb at a later time.

Although I'm sure you have your success with obedience training, there are behaviorists out there who may be even more equipped to deal with something like this. I would recommend that these people find a certified behaviorist with a degree in animal behavior, one who uses motivation and reward based training rather than associating an unpleasant thing (the collar) with the children.

This is meant as no offense to you. It's just that it scares me when someone is talking choke collars, e-collars in the same breath as talking about aggression issues. Those two things don't go together.

In fact, most of the well known, highly reputable, famous trainers these days are using motivation and reward type methods for all training, where by no collar corrections are used. Desireable behavior is brought about using sound, solid scientific principles of learning behavior.

I do hope these children will never be at risk. Best wishes.

[tessa_s212]

And just because I read it and can't help but to share my and many others' philosophy..

There is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. (Not that owners don't mean well, but dogs don't understand good intentions. They only understand what they see and get.)

[Devoted]

Looks like I have entered a sight full of clicker trainers. Click and treat. I'm sure the marketing expert Karen Pryor loves you guys. I have a couple of her books. In my opinion I think she should have stuck with dolphins. Thought I'd throw in a few jabs since you all were firing at me. Good luck and I hope you don't loose your clickers.

[Dekka]

SOme people like to insist the world is flat =o)

[bubbatd]

The other night I was having a sandwich while on Chaz ... I left half a sandwich on my desk top while I went into the kitchen for more wine . Yup , Ollie grabbed it ! I yelled MINE and took it out of his mouth . I don't let him eat any food , unless I offer it ! Neither one of us ate it and I really shamed him as I put it down the disposal .

[tessa_s212]

Looks like I have entered a sight full of clicker trainers. Click and treat. I'm sure the marketing expert Karen Pryor loves you guys. I have a couple of her books. In my opinion I think she should have stuck with dolphins. Thought I'd throw in a few jabs since you all were firing at me. Good luck and I hope you don't loose your clickers.

If you don't want educated answers, don't ask a forum of brilliant and knowledgeable people that are very interested and educated in training and dog behavior.

No one here took a jab at you. Everyone here was perfectly honest and meant in every way to help these dogs. Doberluv explained things very clearly and even kindly, IMO, even once specifically stating, "This is meant as no offense.."

Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best when he said, "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."