Training with a training collar

[mantine]

I spoke to one of the trainers (I don't know if I am going to use them, $800 bucks for the training I would want) but they use a training collor that you can give the dog a little shock for off leash training. She said she keeps it on the lowest level and that she uses it on the owner :lol-sign: before putting it on the dog so we can see that its more like a tap on the shoulder than a shock. I read a couple of other trainer websites that use this. What is your guys take on this?

[Dekka]

RUN!
(if it is only a tap on the shoulder...why would the dog care..the fact is, shock collars should be left for extreem last ditch efforts)

[Charliesmommy]

:popcorn:

[tessa_s212]

I agree with Dekka, .. RUN!!!!

Find a different trainer. The price is absurd, anyway.

You can find a good group class in your area where the trainer will teach YOU how to trian your own dog. I would not go for any trainer that wants to board your dog and then send it back later when trained. You and your dog will benefit MUCH more from a class where you train your own dog.

search www.apdt.com for trainers in your area.

[whatszmatter]

The price isn't impt, its whatever you feel is too much is too much, and what you feel is worth it is.

Lots of people use low level stim, very effectively with their animals. Their dogs aren't abused, scared, or stressed out from it either like others would like you to believe.

Just because you don't understand why the dog would care doesn't mean it doesn't work, have you ever seen a dog trained with low level stim?? I know of a dog right now that would impress a lot of people, I'll see if I can find video of him. I'd like to know how you think he was trained. I"m off to search the net, i know there's bitework of him, but not sure about OB

[Dekka]

Just to point out, I HAVE used one, I belong to a local club where people use them 'properly' I see a lot of stress in their dogs. (and they don't win or progress any faster than those who use positive methods)

[whatszmatter]

Well then, if you could please explain how they were using them properly. I don't know the method they're using, but I have had it briefly explained, but not in depth enough for me to use it. I have seen some dogs that were trained with it as well. Very very very nice work. NO signs of stress and completely willful and willing to snap into new behaviors with and showed great clarity in their responses even in very high levels of drive.

I have seen the dogs trained with traditional shock collars and have seen the results good and bad, these dogs were nothing like that, they were some of the best i've seen.

I'm looking forward to hearing how this low level method works

[Zoom]

This is the five month old Aussie, right?

There is not a reason in the world that pup needs a shock collar put on it, even at the lowest level. Concentrate on attention training with someone who understands what that really means and isn't always thinking "if I could just get an e-collar on this dog..." because they won't put their best efforts into other methods first.

Find someone else. It's an Aussie. He lives to please you...once you unlock that door in him. They can easily bruised trust-wise.

[Furlongs]

Here is a good article about selecting & using a dog collar. It explains the differences of each dog collar & its training benefits.
https://0188afd.netsolstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=52

[Dekka]

Personsally..and this is just my philosophy with animals..

I don't want to do any training with my dog that may do harm. That may cause frear, or pain. Interestingly no educated behaviouralist endorses e collar training, the risks of fall out are to great. I compete, I see e collar trained dogs, I see stress. I slowly wagging tail held low, is a stress/appeasment behaviour, not a sign of happiness. I see lots of puppyish appeasment behaviours in these dogs. A person I know who switched to e collar training now says Turid Rugaas's work (which has been sited scientifically) is bunk, but of course she has to say that. Other wise she would have to acknowledge what she is doing to her dogs.

A dog is about on par with a 2 year old child. So if you would slap an e collar on a 2 year old, or mentally challenged person to teach them table manners, then go a head and slap in on your dog. This collar is illegal in some european countries. (and I think australia) There are reasons behind this.

People will defend the use of e collars greatly. (now as I said the risk of fall out...which I have seen is too great IMO but..) If you said 2 menthods both worked...why would you chose the one that uses force, and pain (yes pain..That tap on the shoulder BS is put out there so people don't feel so bad about what they are doing. If the dog didnt' find it unpleasant then it wouldn't respond) Also..I hate it when people say it is faster..what is faster? Say a dog has 50 behaviours available to it at a particular time. What is faster to reward the one you want, or to punish 49 in hopes the dog will do the 50th?

[mantine]

I was a little wary of it when I saw it on the website and when she mentioned it. I don't really like the idea of it which is why I asked. Yes it is the 5 month old Aussie and I wouldn't want to do anything that would damage our relationship or any trust...I wouldn't even want it put on me, I was a little shocked (no pun intended :lol-sign: ) when she said she uses it on the owners first. I have someone else coming out this saturday, he use to be my neighbor when we were renting.

if it is only a tap on the shoulder...why would the dog care..the fact is, shock collars should be left for extreem last ditch efforts

Very true Dekka.

[Zoom]

It's good that she was at least going to make you understand what you were doing to Grizzly, but that still doesn't change the fact that she's ok putting a shock collar on a puppy.

let us know how your neighbor guy works out!

[Doberluv]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personsally..and this is just my philosophy with animals..

I don't want to do any training with my dog that may do harm. That may cause frear, or pain. Interestingly no educated behaviouralist endorses e collar training, the risks of fall out are to great. I compete, I see e collar trained dogs, I see stress. I slowly wagging tail held low, is a stress/appeasment behaviour, not a sign of happiness. I see lots of puppyish appeasment behaviours in these dogs. A person I know who switched to e collar training now says Turid Rugaas's work (which has been sited scientifically) is bunk, but of course she has to say that. Other wise she would have to acknowledge what she is doing to her dogs.

A dog is about on par with a 2 year old child. So if you would slap an e collar on a 2 year old, or mentally challenged person to teach them table manners, then go a head and slap in on your dog. This collar is illegal in some european countries. (and I think australia) There are reasons behind this.

People will defend the use of e collars greatly. (now as I said the risk of fall out...which I have seen is too great IMO but..) If you said 2 menthods both worked...why would you chose the one that uses force, and pain (yes pain..That tap on the shoulder BS is put out there so people don't feel so bad about what they are doing. If the dog didnt' find it unpleasant then it wouldn't respond) Also..I hate it when people say it is faster..what is faster? Say a dog has 50 behaviours available to it at a particular time. What is faster to reward the one you want, or to punish 49 in hopes the dog will do the 50th?

:hail: :hail: :hail:

My philosophy too. Some people interpret a slowly wagging tail as a necessarily happy dog. They don't really recognize body language in dogs and don't see the rest of the expression, the ears, the mouth etc. So, they think the dog is stress free. How could an animal enjoy being shocked? Mild or not. It has to hurt, startle, cause some kind of level of fear or it would not cause the animal to "behave" in order to avoid. There are two things: Avoidance.... and working toward reward. Avoidance tends to shut down a dog and keep him from throwing new behaviors spontaneously. Spontaneous behaviors which are reinforced accelerate learning. Something that is neutral...neither unpleasant or pleasant does NOT change behavior. So, when people say, the shock collar isn't painful or startling TO THE DOG, they're misinformed IMO. This nonsese about putting it on the owner is ridiculous. Humans can understand what is going on, can tolerate the pain and logically work through it. Dogs do not understand what is happening to them. It causes undue stress.

Find a good positive method trainer who understands behavior and humane training methods. Check out clicker training. A young puppy should never be punished sternly in association with learning. No dog should IMO.

This is the opinion, as Dekka said of most university educated behaviorists with advanced degrees in animal behavior. The leading and most respected trainers and behaviorists in this day and age all promote positive reinforcement training methods.

Just because something "works," isn't all there is. It needs to not only work, but produce a happy, exuberant, willing, thinking dog, such as positive reinforcement training does. Pain, discomfort, fear and other harsh aversives cause avoidance....working in order to avoid pain. And you don't need that in a dog.

[whatszmatter]

I'm quite confident in my ability to judge a dogs behavior and frame of mind, and yet all these scary stories about how dogs react, are not present in the dogs i'm talking about, the ones trained with the low level i'm talking about. I can't explain it, i don't understand it, since you said you've seen it, I was hoping you'd shed some light.

But again its the same ol, "well educated and scientifically trained..........." to which I will always say, you're still missing out on 50% of the science, chosing to ignore it, doesn't make it go away.

yeah there is more risk involved, if you chose not to take it fine, but please lay off your uneducated, blah blah blah. [mod edit: personal attacks and direct insults will NOT be tolerated on this forum.] Are you telling me you never saw someone trying to use a clicker that had a stressed out dog??????

[mantine]

I agree...the shock collar seems like an easy way out for the trainer. I feel like there are plenty of dogs out there that have been trained (quite easily I'm sure) with out the use of a collar.

[whatszmatter]

what personal attack???????

[Doberluv]

I agree...the shock collar seems like an easy way out for the trainer. I feel like there are plenty of dogs out there that have been trained (quite easily I'm sure) with out the use of a collar.

You're absolutely right mantine. Look into clicker training (online) if you're interested...Karen Pryor. Read where it's used, (even if you don't use a clicker persay, but use the concepts) by whom and what these animals are capable of learning and how they learn, what is in their spirits when they're being trained in a way that makes it a game rather than doing things to avoid punishment.

Well, here. Here is an interesting site: If BF Skinner could train a pigeon using shaping and successive approximation, dogs can learn this way too. And they do! :)

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1135