saturday was awesome!

[Purdue#1]

I found a trainer on the internet and went to see his training methods the week before this past Saturday. I was really impressed. They had the dogs outside on a down-stay with the owners about the length of a football field away and over a hill where the dogs couldn't see them. None of the dogs broke the down-stay. At the end we talked to him and his brother who also was a trainer and has a facility at his house. He invited us to come Saturday and pratice with them for free to see how we like it.

It was great! He has a stress agility course that takes all of 2 hrs. to finish. Then he also does traking, obedience and protection. Sly and Mickey did really well. I couldn't be happier.:D well, that was the highlight of my weekend.

[otch1]

Congratulations! Always good to hear positive things about someone's trainer. Those are the ones you and your dog will have a relationship with, for years to come!

[Purdue#1]

I know. I will have to post some pics my dad took.

[Purdue#1]

Here's a link to their website. It will take a while on the pics:

http://www.richlingk9.com/

[Herschel]

At least he admits he's old fashioned. :)

[Purdue#1]

I like his methods. Sly was dog aggressive. During our 4H show the person who was going to be my mentor came to watch. She one of her dogs with her. He bit her trying to get to her dog. She told us to get rid of him. give him to a farm so that he can just herd the rest of his life and have no contact with other dogs because he will always be aggressive.

He's real aggressive now:rolleyes: When he's weaving inbetween dogs and climbing over dogs on stairs and anything else on their course.

One lesson and he is no longer aggressive.

And he has improved in obedience. i will give him the command one time and he will do it. He will come when i call him. He won't break his stays. We are going to start to wean him off his leash and collar now.

[squirtsmom]

Sounds to good to be true. Awesome.

[Herschel]

Sounds to good to be true. Awesome.

No way. It is "...without a doubt, the best dog training system to be found on earth today." (From the website) And instead of testimonials, they took their clients to court and got "Testimonies".

Purdue, how did they make such a remarkable improvement with your dog in one lesson? What techniques did they use? Is it something that you can share with us?

[Purdue#1]

He uses old German training philosophies. His methods are like Colonel conrad Most and William Koehler. Some of their techniques he agrees with and some he doesn't, but it is close.

He uses a stave to correct bad behavior such as being aggressive to another dog or a person. When you are in real advanced obedience and have no leash or collar on the dog you use it then too, but other than that it is hard leash corrections.

A stave is a stick about 2-3 feet long that is flexible and unbreakable. it should sting like a bee sting when you correct your dog with it. Its what he used on sly when he started lunging off the leash. Now i can walk through 20 dogs without sly even looking at them.


Herschel, what do you mean they took their clients to court and got testimonials? Over half of the people who are on that page still come to his training classes. I've met them. And the first two testimonials are from trainers that work with richling.

[Purdue#1]

Schlagstocks are what he uses. he gets them off of rayallen.com

[Herschel]

He uses old German training philosophies. His methods are like Colonel conrad Most and William Koehler. Some of their techniques he agrees with and some he doesn't, but it is close.

He uses a stave to correct bad behavior such as being aggressive to another dog or a person. When you are in real advanced obedience and have no leash or collar on the dog you use it then too, but other than that it is hard leash corrections.

A stave is a stick about 2-3 feet long that is flexible and unbreakable. it should sting like a bee sting when you correct your dog with it. Its what he used on sly when he started lunging off the leash. Now i can walk through 20 dogs without sly even looking at them.

So you hit your dog with a stick until he stops responding to other dogs?

After you're done training, can your dog play with the others? How does your dog react to dogs you meet at the park, can they still romp around together?



Herschel, what do you mean they took their clients to court and got testimonials? Over half of the people who are on that page still come to his training classes. I've met them. And the first two testimonials are from trainers that work with richling.

I was just picking on the website. Instead of "Testimonials" it has "Testimonies".

[MafiaPrincess]

What is a '2 hour stress agility course'?

Doesn't sound like anything I'd want to be involved in..

[Purdue#1]

He hit him one time with the stick and said that every time he starts lunging hit him with it on his thigh. I only had to use it once. He does not use treats or positive reinforcement methods. all he uses is verbal praise. He doesn't believe in treat-training.

after training we stand around and talk usually about training methods and how our dogs are doing in training. We don't let the dogs play. they just lay around next to us and close to each other. By the time we get done with just obedience pratice the dogs just want to sleep because they are put in a lot of stressful situations like a sit-stay on a picnic table working on command refusal.

Waterfront Park is where we train. Its not a dog park so it has no fences. He patrols it with zadok his Dutch shepherd dog after pratice. he has his book on his website.

[Purdue#1]

What is a '2 hour stress agility course'?

Doesn't sound like anything I'd want to be involved in..

Here's pictures of the course without dogs on it:

http://www.richlingk9.com/facility.htm


Here's pics with dogs on it along with protection work:

http://www.richlingk9.com/photos.htm

[Doberluv]

That's not training. That's mistreatment. :( You're happy with it. Your dog has to live a lifetime with the consequences. Not something I'd be able to stomach.

[BostonBanker]

Too bad I love Meg so much; I'd love to take her to someone like this and see how they handled her. I'm pretty sure 1 or 2 sessions would result in a ruined dog.

[Purdue#1]

My dog is fine. It hasn't ruined him at all. Its not mistreatment. Dogs correct each other with their teeth all the time. its no different. Its the same sting you get from 4 large canines as you get with a stave.

What's inhumane:
You correcting a dog that broke a stay with a harsh correction the first time so it won't break it again or not correcting it and it runs out in the road and gets hit and killed because you didn't correct it when it broke the stay?

I would rather have to correct a dog harshly than have a dead dog.

From the website:

Bribery, begging and ignoring are the principle techniques employed in positive-reinforcement training, and yet, this training is often touted as “humane”. In reality, the exact opposite is true. The definition of humane is: inclined to treat the lower orders of animals with regard or kind concern. How in the world can a training system be humane when its methods do not yield solid results or work under stress and therefore allow the dogs to be overwhelmed by the distracting world around them? When a dog breaks a “stay” command outside, the possibility exists for that dog to run into the path of a moving vehicle, etc. Knowingly training your dog in a system which allows dogs to break pivotal commands such as “stay” much more closely resembles a game of Russian roulette than “kind concern”. A humane training system will yield dogs that are solid in their obedience 100% of the time out of kind concern for the welfare and safety of the dogs.

[Dekka]

Some people think its a great idea to whack their children too..and say, oh they are fine. The child then grows up to have issues and.. But no one can ask the dog now can they.

You are not training your dog to not be aggressive, you are training her to be more afraid of you than the other dogs.

And you can train HIGHLY consistent behaviours with NO punishment. Animals way less agreable than dogs are trained by positive methods. I believe the Brelands (who trained 100's of species) had a 98% responce rate...which is extreemly high. Using NO PUNISHMENT.

So if you are happy with this, fine. But don't for a moment let someone sucker you into believing it is better, more reliable or faster. I do competitive obed, I can leave my stud dog in a group stay beside girls in heat and leave. He stays. I have never whacked him, or corrected him in anyway for breaking a stay.

And why would your dog need to stay off leash near a road?

[Doberluv]

Some people think its a great idea to whack their children too..and say, oh they are fine. The child then grows up to have issues and.. But no one can ask the dog now can they.

You are not training your dog to not be aggressive, you are training her to be more afraid of you than the other dogs.

And you can train HIGHLY consistent behaviours with NO punishment. Animals way less agreable than dogs are trained by positive methods. I believe the Brelands (who trained 100's of species) had a 98% responce rate...which is extreemly high. Using NO PUNISHMENT.

So if you are happy with this, fine. But don't for a moment let someone sucker you into believing it is better, more reliable or faster. I do competitive obed, I can leave my stud dog in a group stay beside girls in heat and leave. He stays. I have never whacked him, or corrected him in anyway for breaking a stay.

And why would your dog need to stay off leash near a road?

Ditto. Exactly.

[Herschel]

He hit him one time with the stick and said that every time he starts lunging hit him with it on his thigh. I only had to use it once. He does not use treats or positive reinforcement methods. all he uses is verbal praise. He doesn't believe in treat-training.

after training we stand around and talk usually about training methods and how our dogs are doing in training. We don't let the dogs play. they just lay around next to us and close to each other. By the time we get done with just obedience pratice the dogs just want to sleep because they are put in a lot of stressful situations like a sit-stay on a picnic table working on command refusal.

Waterfront Park is where we train. Its not a dog park so it has no fences. He patrols it with zadok his Dutch shepherd dog after pratice. he has his book on his website.

Our trainer always says that, at the end of the day, dogs just need to be dogs. I asked if you allow the dogs to play because I think playing is major part of being a healthy canine. Does your dog have the ability, motivation, or mental stability to be able to play with other dogs after having gone through this training?

[whatszmatter]

I don't know that they're being suckered into believing it. I don't know this guy or what he does, I know a few of his protection pics have me scratching my head about what' hes doing.

But from the words of Ian Dunbar himself, there is a big drop off in reliability in OB performances in the past few years, and it seems more people doing those competitions are "positive only" trainers. But we've (not you and i, but this board) had this discussion a thousand times before.

[whatszmatter]

Does your dog have the ability, motivation, or mental stability to be able to play with other dogs after having gone through this training?

and there are plenty of "educated" people that will tell you that a truly dog aggressive dog can be around dogs and even interact with some familiar dogs (supervised) but would never recomend they play with dogs they meet in the park as you suggested before.

[Purdue#1]

Some people think its a great idea to whack their children too..and say, oh they are fine. The child then grows up to have issues and.. But no one can ask the dog now can they.

You are not training your dog to not be aggressive, you are training her to be more afraid of you than the other dogs.

And you can train HIGHLY consistent behaviours with NO punishment. Animals way less agreable than dogs are trained by positive methods. I believe the Brelands (who trained 100's of species) had a 98% responce rate...which is extreemly high. Using NO PUNISHMENT.

So if you are happy with this, fine. But don't for a moment let someone sucker you into believing it is better, more reliable or faster. I do competitive obed, I can leave my stud dog in a group stay beside girls in heat and leave. He stays. I have never whacked him, or corrected him in anyway for breaking a stay.

And why would your dog need to stay off leash near a road?

Yet children today are worse than children 50 years ago. :rolleyes:

my dog doesn't fear me. He fears me correcting him. I want him to fear my corrections.

Yeah positive reinforcement really worked the first time. They told me to get rid of him because he was always going to be aggressive.

oh and i never said off leash near a road. i said the dog ran in the road. Maybe it chased something. it saw something on the other side of the road. it doesn't matter. it broke whatever you command you gave it because you didn't train it right.

We don't let the dogs play because by the time training is over its usually dark out and people want to get home. They drive an hour to get there. We are the closest and it takes us 30 mins to get there.


If you all have questions about his methods e-mail him. He doesn't care. His e-mail address is on his website.

[Purdue#1]

The only dogs in the park where we are at are the ones in the obedience class.

[Herschel]

and there are plenty of "educated" people that will tell you that a truly dog aggressive dog can be around dogs and even interact with some familiar dogs (supervised) but would never recomend they play with dogs they meet in the park as you suggested before.

What is wrong with you? Why are you picking at word choice? Obviously the point I'm making is the "play" behavior is healthy, normal behavior for canines. It doesn't have to be in the park with random dogs--heck, Herschel would probably ignore a random dog in the park for the first couple of times they met.

I like knowing that my dogs have the ability to have fun. Life isn't about fearing a correction and they don't have to be on edge. I like that they can let their guard down and be silly without worrying about me hitting them with a stick.


One lesson and he is no longer aggressive.

If he is no longer aggressive--how does he act in front of other dogs now? In other words, if you take him for a walk tonight and he sees another dog what will he do?

[Purdue#1]

He can go on a down-stay with 20 other dogs moving around him and not break the command i gave him. If he saw another dog tonight he would not care. He trusts me that that other dog means nothing and will do nothing.

My dog does not fear me or my stave. He does have the ability to play. He plays with me and mickey all the time. If anything it has made him want to be near me more.

[whatszmatter]

Nothing is wrong with me, but thanks for your concern. I'm not picking at word choice, merely pointing out that dogs with a real case of dog aggression usually aren't ever trusted to run and romp with dogs they meet at a park. I never suggested it, you did. Too many variables and a disaster waiting to happen. Just pointing out that it is recommended that these type dogs see other dogs and are around other dogs, but don't necessarily interact with them in romping sessions, other than supervised ones, with a very limited number of dogs they know and those dogs are known to be submissive and passive.


Just because a dog is corrected for something doens't mean it doesn't have the ability to have fun. It doesn't mean they're always worried about correction or living on edge. Sure some people create dogs like that, but that would be like me treating, then clicking and wondering why clicker training isn't working. Screwed up applications are screwed up applications and result in screwed up dogs.

[otch1]

Holy cow, Perdue. I said "congratulations" on the trainer you found before seeing your post about who they are. These methods are considered very "old school", as are Koehlers. Koehlers' being considered out right animal abuse by many well respected pros' in the industry. I'm not talking about a pop on a prong collar, but rather dogs being strung up, air supply cut off, damaged trachea, bruised hocks from stick corrections. I've seen extreme abuse in these types of programs. As far as trainers relying strictly on physical punishment to achieve obedience, it's considered the lazy mans way of training. I just want to caution you... look out for your dogs well being. Granted, many of us who are trainers can drop a dog in a second and demand a down-stay, even from an aggressive dog in a group setting. Most of us also know better though and work to achieve a level of training that eliminates the dogs desire to break that stay and go after the dog next him. It can be done without these methods. Be careful about what you allow them to do to your dog in the name of "obedience." I have a client whose Malinois turned on him, after extensive training with a Koehler method school. Another whose dog, while never considering disobeying the male owner who did this method of training with him, then attacked the female owner when she corrected him for stealing food. (Simply grabbing his collar and trying to pull him off the counter.) It took a lot of "rehab" and re-training for one that came to me. The other was put down. Yes, they can guarantee it will change your dogs response and behavior, but not always for the better. What compensation do they offer if your dog happens to be one of the dogs ruined with this type of training? Just a thought.

[Purdue#1]

Koehlers' being considered out right animal abuse by many well respected pros' in the industry. I'm not talking about a pop on a prong collar, but rather dogs being strung up, air supply cut off, damaged trachea, bruised hocks from stick corrections. I've seen extreme abuse in these types of programs. As far as trainers relying strictly on physical punishment to achieve obedience, it's considered the lazy mans way of training.

I said that he believes in some of his methods.

He told us not to hit him on legs. On the meaty part of their thigh. The stick he wants us to use is very flexible like you could bend it in a circle and it won't break. its supposed to sting, not trear muscle and tendons.

he is not ruined. I can see a real difference in him. he responds to my commands now. he listens, but he is still Sly.

[Herschel]

I said that he believes in some of his methods.

He told us not to hit him on legs. On the meaty part of their thigh. The stick he wants us to use is very flexible like you could bend it in a circle and it won't break. its supposed to sting, not trear muscle and tendons.

he is not ruined. I can see a real difference in him. he responds to my commands now. he listens, but he is still Sly.

He listens out of fear, though. Why would you want your dog to respond because he's afraid of the consequences? It sounds like bullying to me. "Do as I say, or else!"

The positive reinforcement that you have learned to hate is based around the idea that you can train a dog to want to work with you.

[Purdue#1]

I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

[otch1]

No, your dog's not ruined, but you just started training with them. That "sly" behavior, dog aggression, challenging you until you started using a stick are what I'm talking about. Knowing dog behavior is very important here. The "stick" you speak of, I am very familiar with. It hurts twice as much as a stiff pole or rod. It is flexible and thin. The thinner the stick the more sting it delivers, much like a whip would. It doesn't do lasting physical damage because you're hitting the larger muscles. It does cause cause real pain though. Remember some of the movies where the bad guy makes jokes about being able to beat some one where it doesn't leave marks? It's still a beating, still painful. This is simply your dog submitting to punishment verses responding to instruction. I don't want to critique another trainer I don't know. They made statements on their site that were a little silly though. I hope you'll always remember, never let anyone do anything to your dog you're uncomfortable with. Even when it comes from someone who says they're a pro. You are your animals provider and protector. That's a big responsibility, but a job that's quite rewarding when it's based on mutual respect and from an animal that wants to please you verses "has to" please you. Good luck.

[MafiaPrincess]

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

My dog happily does Ob for me. I've never hit her to get her to do it.. She wiggles her butt and is overly enthusiastic to work for me. There are options that don't involve pain, and a dog fearing you.

[Purdue#1]

I meant he is "Sly". He is still himself. Sly is his name. I'm not unconfortable with what they do. He asked me if i was unconfortable with hitting my dog with a stick. i have no problem. It kept him from being aggressive and i can take him with me around other dogs now.

[Dekka]

I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

WHy? Snip, who is a jack russell (not known for their desire to please humans) thinks obedience training is the best thing ever. My dogs love training! I compete and WIN in obedience with dogs who love to work with me. I have 2 HITs with my dogs. I don't train often (focusing on agility for the last year or so) but my dogs are very keen to be obedient.

[elegy]

I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

why on earth would you want your dog to fear you? doesn't that completely undermine what the relationship between a person and their dog is supposed to be about? i've corrected my dogs, sure, but i have never EVER EVER wanted them to FEAR a correction.

[Purdue#1]

My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.

[tessa_s212]

My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.

You, my friend, whether you are blind to it right now or not, are slowly but surely damaging your relationship with your dog.

You say it fears corrections. Fine. But who are those corrections coming from? Answer me that, and then you will know what the dog truly fears.

And if the dog fears corrections, and the corrections come from you, which then the dog will associate a fear of corrections with you, the dog cannot possibly trust you more than it did before. The dog is not complying now because of a stronger trust with you, but a fear of you.

Treats do teach a dog to like obedience. But not just treats, rewards and positive reinforcements of all kinds. When a dog is trained through positive motivations, they learn that following commands will earn them rewards. Because the commands eventually lead to reward, the commend then alone, in itself becomes fun and enjoyable. This is how after initially teachign a command with treats, one can fade off the treats and the dog still be enjoying itself following those commands. The commands in themselves become fun and enjoyable. It's all about associating words with positive experiences.

[tessa_s212]

I suggest you go to your library and order "Bones Would Rain From The Sky: Deepening Our Relationships With Dogs" by Suzanne Clothier. Read open mindedly, learn from others' mistakes, take notes and then apply it. Your dog will be thankful.

[Herschel]

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.



Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:


Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

Both are great exercises and my dog can do both without a problem. Herschel's recall is as close to 100% as I could ever hope for it to be. He has strong prey drive and I can take him to the park at night and let him chase a rabbit. As soon as I say, "STOP!" and call him he comes back.

Herschel was barking at a dog tonight while we were out for our evening walk--he slipped his collar. Did he run after the dog? No. He stood there and waited for us to put his collar back on. He didn't stay because he's scared of us. He stayed because he trusts us.

[elegy]

if you're correcting your dog strongly enough that he fears the correction, he's going to fear the person from whom the correction came as well.

i really don't understand why you'd want to teach your dog to fear ANYTHING. i want my dogs bold and confident. i want them to be up and driving at my side during training, i want them to be pushing, i want them to throw themselves into everything 100% and not be afraid of making mistakes. i want it to be FUN, because what's the point if it's not?

[Labra]

My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.


Why would you want to do a 1000ft out-of-sight down stay anyway? I can't possibly see how that could corralate to real life.

There is nothing impressive about using fear to control your dogs. Your dogs are not working for you because they are happy. They are working because they fear YOU. Yes, they fear the correction but who does the correction come from? YOU. Your dog is "starting to listen more" because he is fearful of what is coming next. I find that terribly sad.

I would much rather have a disobedient but happy dog than an obedient but unhappy one. You are kidding yourself if you think your dogs are happy while you implement your fear based methods. Would you be happy if someone hit you with a stick for every mistake you made? of course not, so please do not be so single-minded as to assume that your dogs would.

[Herschel]

There is nothing impressive about using fear to control your dogs. Your dogs are not working for you because they are happy. They are working because they fear YOU. Yes, they fear the correction but who does the correction come from? YOU. Your dog is "starting to listen more" because he is fearful of what is coming next. I find that terribly sad.

Purdue, try this. Jump up and down and clap your hands together really loud. Does your dog tuck his tail and wait to be hit or does he think you're being goofy and roll with it?

Why in the world would you want your dog to live in fear--of you, of a correction, or anything?

[Dekka]

I am sure I could train my dogs to do that...It would be easier than some of the other things I have trained. But as asked before why? Why on earth would I want a down stay that long?

I agree with everyone, I wish my dog to obey me because I have trained them too, and because they want me too, I wish to be a good leader, fair and compassionate...You are being Hitler, or maybe Stalin by comparison.

[Purdue#1]

[QUOTE=Herschel;768413]Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:


[QUOTE]

It proves a lot to me. Your dog should be able to handle those exercises with no breaks if he's trained the way you say he is. Richling's K-9 can do it. One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

And the down-stay that long is to advance the dog in its training.

[Dekka]

So you see a dog scared to move and call it trained? If you see a kid who never talks (cause its whacked a lot and 'knows' the world is a scary dangerous place) You think, 'my what a polite child?' Do you wish your parents had hit you more, or do you wish they listened to you more?

Edited to add, a dog who is trained by force is not likely to be able to learn the names of their toys, because the desire to offer behaviours is squashed, the dog becomes a creature that things get 'done upon' and sits and waits to be told what to do. A dog trained fairly to be a partner will willing look to perform what is wanted. For example your dog will never be able to do 101 things to do with a box.

I guess this just confuses me, as I don't want a slave who fears me as a tyrant (gosh if I move cause this fly is annoying me-I will get whacked, best to let the fly bite me.) I want a partner who is into the training as much as me. A slave-master relationship is a relationship...but I wouldnt call it a good one.

[mantine]

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

Grizzley loves his obedience training, its not something I have to force him to do, I do train with treats and while he is overly enthusiastic to do tricks when he knows I have the treats he readily does them when I don't have any treats on me either.

One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

Why would you want your dog to stay for 3 hours? I am curious as to the purpose of this and the answer to Labras question of why you would do a down stay from a 1000 feet where the dog cannot see or smell you and Hershals request of jumping in front of your dog an clapping...what was his response to you? I agree with the others, your dog fears your correction and you because you are doing the corrections.

My dad spanked me when I was young, I didn't only fear the spanking when I knew it was coming I also feared him. Same situation.

[Purdue#1]

Edited to add, a dog who is trained by force is not likely to be able to learn the names of their toys, because the desire to offer behaviours is squashed, the dog becomes a creature that things get 'done upon' and sits and waits to be told what to do. A dog trained fairly to be a partner will willing look to perform what is wanted. For example your dog will never be able to do 101 things to do with a box.



Yet his dog Zadok knows what his ball is. He loves his ball. And Sly knows what "get your bone" means.

[Dekka]

But you did that before... AND how long did it take? Your dog will stop offering behaviours. That is why stay is such an easy 'trick' for a punishment trained dog.

[Purdue#1]

Then how do you explain his dog knowing what his ball is?

Oh and if you think all we do is punish our dogs, you're wrong. They get a lot of verbal praise after a command is over.

[Dekka]

And verbal praise becomes a no punishment marker. Interestingly enough praise works best on abused dogs and dogs who are trained with punishment, because it comes to mean "good you won't get whacked"
And you never answered my question. Heck you have had a few lessons, it will take time for your dog to quit offering behaviours. And if you read what I have posted, your dog won't be able to learn the name of 5 toys in a training session. Not that they won't figure it out over time.

[Labra]

One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.


Are the purpose of this is what? more to the point, why anyone would subject a dog to sit-staying for 3 HOURS is beyond me. The only possible reason I can think of is that this so called "trainer" is feeding her ego - "Look at what my super well trained dog can do". That is not impressive - it is sad.

[Purdue#1]

She was working with her other dog on the agility course. she didn't want it to move. she wasn't working with it at that time.

[Dekka]

I feel so sorry for her dogs... Imagine having to sit still (not move for 3 hours!)

[Labra]

She was working with her other dog on the agility course. she didn't want it to move. she wasn't working with it at that time.


I had a look at those pictures of the "agility" course. I can't for the life of me see what kind of pleasure a dog would derive from staggering up a near vertical 'ramp' like this:

http://www.richlingk9.com/warrenaframe.gif

[Purdue#1]

I don't. they are as happy as can be. You can tell by the way they act that they are happy. They don't cower or are timid like you say they should. they are very confident dogs that do what their master says. they are very aware of their surroundings.

[Dekka]

Thats not agility! So there is some more misinformation your 'trainer' is giving you. An agility A frame is much less than that for the dog's safety.

[Purdue#1]

I had a look at those pictures of the "agility" course. I can't for the life of me see what kind of pleasure a dog would derive from staggering up a near vertical 'ramp' like this:

http://www.richlingk9.com/warrenaframe.gif

I said it is a stress agility course. It helps the dog bond closer with its master and be able to work under stress or in stressful situations.

[Dekka]

I don't. they are as happy as can be. You can tell by the way they act that they are happy. They don't cower or are timid like you say they should. they are very confident dogs that do what their master says. they are very aware of their surroundings.
I give up! If you like whackin your dog, like the power trip then fine. We were just trying to point out that all this can be done WITHOUT harsh methods. I would prefer an e collar to actually whacking my dog.

If you chose not to see stress, and to ignore the 'facts' thats fine. I hope one day you will see that hitting a dog, is as wrong as hitting a child.

[Purdue#1]

first off i know what an AKC agility A frame looks like.

I don't don't see stress because they work under stress and don't worry about it. We put them on down-stays on picnic tables, shoot guns, and use a megaphone that sirens on it. They don't show stress because they work under it and get used to it.

The facts are right in front of me and i do see them. The "real" facts.

[Labra]

I don't. they are as happy as can be. You can tell by the way they act that they are happy. They don't cower or are timid like you say they should. they are very confident dogs that do what their master says. they are very aware of their surroundings.

Dogs do not need to be cowering or timid to be fearful. Someone who is inexperienced in reading canine behavior could quite easily pass a highly stressed or anxiety ridden dog off as being 'excited' or 'drivey'.

You can sugar coat it is as much as you want but the FACT is that dogs who are "trained" (if you can call it that) using force/negativity and bullying tactics are NOT happy dogs. You do not need a Ph.D in behavior to figure that one out.

It helps the dog bond closer with its master and be able to work under stress or in stressful situations.

How does being made to climb a giant wooden near vertical ramp translate to real life stressful situations?

[tessa_s212]

A wagging tail does not mean a happy dog.

I have a very sensitive pointer that when nervous and afraid(because of methods/corrections too harsh for his temperament) will jump up and down "happily", wagging his tail, and otherwise lookin like he's just trying to have fun.. but he's not.

It is about being able to look at a dog and see past the obvious. Sure, he looks happy..but he's not. He's afraid and trying to win over my praise, to distract me from whatever it is that I am beginning to feel frustrated. People that don't understand dog behavior are often actually quite confused when I immediately stop training when my dog is having such "fun". Why would I want to end his fun? I should encourage it. And that IS exactly why I quit when he displays this behavior.

Sadly, what you've got is a bunch of trainers on an ego trip. Bullying, intimidating, and forcing their dog to do stupidly long and boring exercises is a way to boost that ego and make them feel good. And that is terribly sad and disgusting.

The most important thing any trainer could possibly do is to

Learn to train without ego

[Herschel]

It proves a lot to me. Your dog should be able to handle those exercises with no breaks if he's trained the way you say he is. Richling's K-9 can do it.

You've been completely brainwashed by this guy. There is no way in the world that I would ever train my dog to be like that or expect him to learn such a useless command. Don't project your ridiculous expectations onto my dog.

As I said before, I train Herschel to want to work with me. There are hundreds of things that he can do that Richling's dogs can't, and similarly, there are a lot of things that I would never teach Herschel that Richling's dogs do all of the time.

One of those absolutely useless things is:


One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

Why in the world would you subject your dog to that? A lot of us that are in agility often have our dogs wait while we run sequences with another dog. We just put them in a crate and let them relax for a while. Why in the world should they have to sit still for 3 hours? That's torture, causes unnecessary muscle strain, and terrible for the mental health of the animal. You're advocating not even giving the dog the freedom to move?!

And the down-stay that long is to advance the dog in its training.

Advance the dog in its training for what? What is your goal with all of this training? There are plenty of us that have well-rounded, civilized dogs that don't use physical abuse to train. What is the purpose that you want out of your dog?

This sounds like a really insecure guy decided that he could get ahead in life by beating smaller animals into submission. He saw that it worked and that he could control something by force so he wanted to turn a profit on it. Thus, Richling opened his training school. Now, other people see his machismo and enjoy the pleasure of subjugating another being so they join.

Do you enjoy watching Richling work with and train dogs? I'm sure you do. For some reason, people thrive on dominating lesser beings. According to Camus, it is at the heart of every man.

"Every man needs slaves as he needs fresh air. Commanding is breathing--you agree with me? And even the most destitute manage to breath. The lowest man in the social scale still has his wife or his child. If he's unmarried, a dog. The essential thing, after all, is being able to get angry with someone who has no right to talk back." -Albert Camus, The Fall

[Purdue#1]

Its STRESS! stress can be anything : a cat running across its path, a squirrel running up a tree, someone riding a bike down the road. it doesn't matter to what degree the stress is or where its coming from its all STRESS!

The dog learns to trust its master that nothing will happen to it on this "ramp". The master will guide it and not let it fall.

[Herschel]

Its STRESS! stress can be anything : a cat running across its path, a squirrel running up a tree, someone riding a bike down the road. it doesn't matter to what degree the stress is or where its coming from its all STRESS!

What?! A squirrel is stress?

http://my.opera.com/Dudley/homes/albums/111245/Squirrel5708wb.jpg

Be afraid, dog. Be very afraid. :lol-sign:

[Purdue#1]

Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods." He gave that up when the dogs were not able to work in the real world and went to the old german ways because it works in the real world.

If positive methods worked in the real world out on the streets that he patrols with Zadok he would use them, but it doesn't. His dog has to be able to listen to 100% of the time, the first time he tells him to. And at a distance.

[Dekka]

]

The dog learns to trust its master that nothing will happen to it on this "ramp". The master will guide it and not let it fall.
You know I was giving up on this thread, but then noticed some people who's opinions I respect posted, so I read. Now this is the first thing that makes sense. You train the dog that the world is a scary, and dangerous place where your most beloved person hits you..of course you are going to have to do something to try to regain trust. Personally I don't beat the dog in the first place.

[tessa_s212]

Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods." He gave that up when the dogs were not able to work in the real world and went to the old german ways because it works in the real world.

If positive methods worked in the real world out on the streets that he patrols with Zadok he would use them, but it doesn't. His dog has to be able to listen to 100% of the time, the first time he tells him to. And at a distance.

They work, he just didn't' know how to use and apply them. And instead of looking at his own abilities(or lack of), he went back to the much too easy dominating and bullying over dogs to boost his ego.

And he's even become quite skilled at brainwashing.

I encourage you to start reading. Some very good books include

Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia B McConnell
Bones Would Rain From The Sky by Suzanne Clothier

[Herschel]

Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods."

What does that mean? By the way, I like that he says the other trainers in the group are "certified". Just because he taught them to hit dogs with sticks doesn't make them certified trainers.

He gave that up when the dogs were not able to work in the real world and went to the old german ways because it works in the real world.

What does that mean? You're coughing up all of these ambiguous catch phrases without explaning them at all. The real world? Are you saying that the rest of us live in a "fake" world? (This brings back memories of "Only working dogs are real dogs")

If positive methods worked in the real world out on the streets that he patrols with Zadok he would use them, but it doesn't. His dog has to be able to listen to 100% of the time, the first time he tells him to. And at a distance.

I live in the real world. Earth to little boy. Wake up, man. We all live in the real world--this isn't the Matrix. Are you planning on patrolling "the streets" with your Aussie? If not, why in the world are you training for that? http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb148.gif

[tessa_s212]

You know I was giving up on this thread, but then noticed some people who's opinions I respect posted, so I read. Now this is the first thing that makes sense. You train the dog that the world is a scary, and dangerous place where your most beloved person hits you..of course you are going to have to do something to try to regain trust. Personally I don't beat the dog in the first place.


:hail: :hail: :hail: Who would have thought it was as easy as that? You mean.. I just shouldn't beat my dog? Wow!:rolleyes:

[tessa_s212]

Even I began to forget, so I'm posting here to remind everyone when posting to take into consideration the age and maturity of the poster. If I remember correctly and judging by his/her posts, this person is young, probably early teenage years. In our disagreement and argument, let us remember that and to practice what we preach: kindness, whether that be to dog or person.

(Though, don't be fooled. I'm as disgusted at the rest of the abuse of these dogs that undergo this "training" and being hit bit sticks.)

[Purdue#1]

What?! A squirrel is stress?

http://www.allfantasyart.com/photomanipulation/super_squirrel.jpg



Be afraid, dog. Be very afraid. :lol-sign:

If that squirrel is running and activates the dog's prey drive its stress. You don't want that stress over riding your command and him running out in the street with a car coming down the road at 80 mph and hitting your dog.

And no, the dog learns to trust you in obedience too with all the distractions. It also gives the dog a job to do that it normally would not have.

[Purdue#1]

From the website:

WHY WE TRAIN OUTDOORS

The training at Richling K-9 takes place outdoors. Why is this?

Many training systems take the dogs out of the real environment and put them into a rather sterile world, away from all possible distractions (a small indoor ring, for example). You won’t find this at Richling K-9. We train our dogs amidst all of life’s many distractions, hence the reason you can see our dogs obeying us anywhere and everywhere. To put it simply, our training holds up in the real world because we train in the real world.

The outdoor world holds a veritable host of distractions for dogs: ever-changing scents, squirrels, rabbits, cars, people, other dogs, loud noises, changing weather, varying temperatures, etc. Other systems of training will fall apart amid distractions such as these. How practical is that? You should want to teach your dog in a system of obedience training that holds up under the distractions of everyday life, so that it can be of use to you when such distractions occur…anything else is not practical, reliable, or useful on a daily basis.

The outside world is the best place to train dogs because it is the real world. It’s the world you will be in when taking your dog for a walk, to a park, on a vacation, etc. Life has distractions. At Richling K-9, we don’t hide from them…we train amongst them.

[Herschel]

From the website:

We just had an agility class with our trainer this morning outside. There were horses and sheep in the pasture right next to us, cars driving by, and two other dogs. I kept his focus and we had so much fun.

Training outdoors isn't a new concept at all. I would be weary of any trainer that claims that as one of his attributes.

[BostonBanker]

I hate that I can't stop reading this thread.

Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods." He gave that up when the dogs were not able to work in the real world and went to the old german ways because it works in the real world.

I'm going to go ahead and type up a bit of a long story that will probably be ignored (;) ), but which I think is pertinant to the discussion. A couple of weeks ago, I got a call about housesitting. The owner insisted I come over and meet the dogs before I committed, since they were high drive, competitive Shutzhund GSDs. My first thought was "I'm gonna turn and run when she hands me a choke chain attached to an aggressive dog". But, I needed the money, so I figured I'd go see.

The dogs were stunning. They were clearly pretty intense, but were not at all aggressive and were walked on flat collars. The owner told me to use treats if I wanted.

After we visited with the dogs and chatted for a while, I confessed that I'd been worried she was going to be an old-school, "German" trainer. It turns out her oldest male had actually been trained in Germany originally. She had been interested in him when he was young and showing promise, but he was far too expensive. A year or two later, his trainers called him "trash" because he was so shut down he wouldn't work, or even look at anybody anymore. This woman bought him cheap, brought him home and "fed him steak and hot dogs" for two years. When she brought him back to competition, she qualified him for Worlds.

I loved that story; I love knowing there are people out there who know you can do ANY kind of work with dogs by using positive methods. I love that her dogs were happy, comfortable, and pleasant in the house. If I ever own a dog with that type of drive, I would have no problems going to her for assistance.

You don't have to hit your dog to make them obey. I can call my prey-driven hunting breed off of rabbit and squirrel. All it would take is one little smack and a minute of yelling, and I would put her 'stays' against any other dogs; she can shut down and cower like a star. I sincerely doubt she would ever work for me again, but she wouldn't move. However, I'd rather she be the bold, happy, confident dog that she has shown me she is capable of being. If it means I stick her in a crate to contain her rather than putting her in a down stay, so be it. I like knowing that same willing dog is going to be there when I come back, rather than a shell of a dog.

[Purdue#1]

We have fun doing this agility course. There were 20 other dogs and some of richling's brother's dogs in their giant pen next to the course because the course is liberty K9's course. and its right near a road. so cars were coming by. During obedience they made a lot of noise with different guns and sirens so the dogs would get used to distractions and learn not to break the stay or heeling.

[BostonBanker]

some of richling's brother's dogs in their giant pen next to the course

In a pen?? You'd think his own brother's dogs would be able to hold a simple down stay:rolleyes: .

[Labra]

Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods."

Postive reinforcement methods that involve hitting a dog with a stick? that is new on on me.

If that squirrel is running and activates the dog's prey drive its stress. You don't want that stress over riding your command and him running out in the street with a car coming down the road at 80 mph and hitting your dog.


Gosh, this one is new on me too. Chasing a squirrel is stressful to a dog? that is like me saying I think eating a bar of chocolate is stressful.

Of course, why your dog would be loose anywhere near a 80mph street would be anyones guess.

[Purdue#1]

In a pen?? You'd think his own brother's dogs would be able to hold a simple down stay:rolleyes: .

Yes they would. They are police K-9. They are trained already. He has pups to that are in training.



Quote:
Richling was certified in "positive reinforcement methods."

Postive reinforcement methods that involve hitting a dog with a stick? that is new on on me.


Quote:
If that squirrel is running and activates the dog's prey drive its stress. You don't want that stress over riding your command and him running out in the street with a car coming down the road at 80 mph and hitting your dog.

Gosh, this one is new on me too. Chasing a squirrel is stressful to a dog? that is like me saying I think eating a bar of chocolate is stressful.

Of course, why your dog would be loose anywhere near a 80mph street would be anyones guess.

If the dog can't chase the squirrel then yes its stressful. It prey to a dog.

Its any road. People don't always follow speed limits and it could be any speed.espically down the road we live on. People fly down it all the time even though now its a 40 mph speed zone.

[MafiaPrincess]

f the dog can't chase the squirrel then yes its stressful. It prey to a dog.

Isn't stressful when you've taught the dog that things in the world are unavailable to him or her until you give them up.. But oh darn.. that's positive training and your trainer apparently doesn't do that. Couldn't get much more tooly than what you are spouting. Lord.

[tessa_s212]

I hate that I can't stop reading this thread.



I'm going to go ahead and type up a bit of a long story that will probably be ignored (;) ), but which I think is pertinant to the discussion. A couple of weeks ago, I got a call about housesitting. The owner insisted I come over and meet the dogs before I committed, since they were high drive, competitive Shutzhund GSDs. My first thought was "I'm gonna turn and run when she hands me a choke chain attached to an aggressive dog". But, I needed the money, so I figured I'd go see.

The dogs were stunning. They were clearly pretty intense, but were not at all aggressive and were walked on flat collars. The owner told me to use treats if I wanted.

After we visited with the dogs and chatted for a while, I confessed that I'd been worried she was going to be an old-school, "German" trainer. It turns out her oldest male had actually been trained in Germany originally. She had been interested in him when he was young and showing promise, but he was far too expensive. A year or two later, his trainers called him "trash" because he was so shut down he wouldn't work, or even look at anybody anymore. This woman bought him cheap, brought him home and "fed him steak and hot dogs" for two years. When she brought him back to competition, she qualified him for Worlds.

I loved that story; I love knowing there are people out there who know you can do ANY kind of work with dogs by using positive methods. I love that her dogs were happy, comfortable, and pleasant in the house. If I ever own a dog with that type of drive, I would have no problems going to her for assistance.

You don't have to hit your dog to make them obey. I can call my prey-driven hunting breed off of rabbit and squirrel. All it would take is one little smack and a minute of yelling, and I would put her 'stays' against any other dogs; she can shut down and cower like a star. I sincerely doubt she would ever work for me again, but she wouldn't move. However, I'd rather she be the bold, happy, confident dog that she has shown me she is capable of being. If it means I stick her in a crate to contain her rather than putting her in a down stay, so be it. I like knowing that same willing dog is going to be there when I come back, rather than a shell of a dog.

What a wonderful story. :)

[otch1]

Purdue, you obviously really like these people and while I'm sure they're very nice and do have "obedient" dogs, I just want to stress that you're new to this, so gaining as much info about training and trainers is important. Don't take every trainers word as fact. You owe it to yourself and your dog to do your homework. I may be mistaken but are all of Richlings' dogs or the 6 mo. old pups he's selling registered with a nationally recognized registry? Are any of his dogs actually titled in nationally recognized competitions (AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI), in tracking, agility or obedience? Are any of his trainers certified through any nationally recognized organization, or are they just going through his school being certified by him? Where is their training facility to train in during the winter or do they make their clients stand out in a field regardless of conditions? Was Richling actually a k-9 officer with the police dept., verses a security company? Some of their info on site was unclear and titles/accomplishments were missing. When you claim you are "the best" and are teaching the only "true method" of dog training, despising other trainers methods, one really should be able to put in print why they're the best, with the credentials to prove it. While certain credits aren't nessacary to train, I would expect that these people have them with the claims they've made.

[tessa_s212]

And certainly as important as it is for them to have those credentials and be able to prove it, it is also important to possess some humility. To be a good trainer, one must do away with their ego and possess not only good dog skills, but people skills. Exactly why I feel this bears repeating:

Learn to train without ego

And unfortunately, this man hasn't.

[Purdue#1]

he's a former chief of a canine unit that patroled high crime subway systems. and he was also a police K-9 officer. He is now contracted with people to patrol areas of louisville, Ky and other places. The only dog martin richling has is Zadok. His brother owns liberty K-9s and has all the pups for sale and breeds the dogs. I know they don't show and i think none of their dogs are registered.

We train in all kinds of weather. that's what he means by training in the real world. We don't train in an inside ring.

If you didn't see this its on the left side of the homepage. I didn't see it until later:

http://richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml

[otch1]

I don't think Purdue has been fully exposed to their egos yet Tessa, as he's new to them. They're ego's are obviously enormous, to put it nicely. The reason I asked Purdue to always inquire about credentials before handing his dog over to someone is because, as I understand it... Martin Richling makes the claim when promoting his book that quote; "the vast majority of dog trainers are the most lying, thieving, inhumane trainers a dog could be exposed to." Martin states that he's reached "master trainer" level. With whom? The FCI, the police dept? Also, in order to become a member of Richling trainings program, you need to become a member of Liberty K-9s' his brother Tonys' training school. Unless there've been recent changes, Tony is actually a maintenance mechanic at a food company, not a trainer running a school for a living. He trains part time and I was unable to find his accomplishments/Schutzhund titles. My apologies if my information is outdated, but I felt it was relevant here. Good luck, which ever direction you go in your training process Purdue.

[Purdue#1]

He has people skills. trust me.

[Dekka]

Cool does that mean I can put that I train in the real world to on my website? We will train in all weather (except lightning..cause standing on the top of a hill in a lightning storm is just stupid) with the competing dogs...

Just another observation. Even if you said this training is req for patrolling city streets (and there are people who have trained animals for the military, very real life, and no punishments) its the equivalent of boot camp. Now do you think every person should go through boot camp? And as for relationship, do you think you would LOVE to live with the people who train you at boot camp? I have been told by people who have been through military training, you aren't supposed to like it. Many end up hating the men who train them. BUt yes they are trained to a high degree, but not for any normal civilized fashion.

edited to add, what does people skill have to do with ego. I know many people with HUGE egos (the horse world is a strange place) who have great people skills.

[tessa_s212]

He has people skills. trust me.
Oh yes, I believe you. He is very skilled at brainwashing people into believing his hype.

[otch1]

Hi Purdue. Posting at same time you were. I'm slow! ha. You've answered some of my questions. Thank you. I was already pretty certain of some of the issues I mentioned. Them not having reg. dogs, not really being from the "best lines", not actually titling them. Not showing, not even in Schutzhund comp though? (Pretty unheard of for most of the instructors I know) Was aware of them not actually having a school, issues about not training full time for a living as they're certainly not getting families with children standing out in the pouring down rain teaching the family pup sit and down stays. Again, before they make some of the claims they have about being the best and make such derogatory statements about other trainers, they really should have proof of what they claim. Most trainers don't have to put things like that on their website, most don't have to justify their methods by being disrespectful to others. Not very professional. I'm sorry this has turned so negative when you were so excited about finding them. I'm just going to again, say good luck, and leave it at that.

[whatszmatter]

I see the man he got his training from as well, but I don't have anything nice to say about that.

BTW, I've seen people use BB guns and paintball guns, whos says +P trainers aren't "creative"? That was sarcasm btw. I think those are pretty rediculous as well.

I'd have to say after looking at his site, I do like the agility course, but not much else. It is hard on a dog, its supposed to be, but it serves a purpose to what we do. Problem solving skills for the dog, learning to work thru stress, learning to work with their handler, and building confidence. I'd probably drop the stick though, I wouldn't need it.

[tessa_s212]

otch is right. I truly hope you don't jsut stop at one trainer and believe everything he says. There's so much more to learn.

Have you searched for and visited any other training places in the area? www.apdt.com might list other local trainers in your area.

[Purdue#1]

i did search other trainers. He's the only one that emailed me back.

[Charliesmommy]

Purdue - I haven't read this whole thread, I've only skimmed it, but I do want to contribute something here. I took my dog to a trainer very much like the one you have described. He is a former K9 officer and trains dogs for police, military and rescue work. I did a little research but admittedly, only into his results and not his methods. I was VERY impressed with his dogs and how well trained they were. They would do a down-stay for the entire class with 20 dogs running around them and they never took their eyes off the trainer. This guy is on the board of the local humane society and is a very well known trainer in my city.

The second class I went to, I told the trainer I was concerned about Charlie's biting (just puppy biting, not aggressive) and he instructed me what to do. What he demonstrated was to take Charlie's slip collar and yank it to cut off his air supply and said "if he can't breathe, he won't bite". As soon as he let go, Charlie started coughing and then vomited.

The following day I did some further reseach on this trainer and found that he has lawsuit after lawsuit against him, mostly for vet bills for dogs that he has "trained" and injured. I then discussed all this with my vet, who told me she has treated several dogs trained by this man for injuries to their necks and legs.

Needless to say, I did not go back to the class. So.....whatever training you decide to proceed with, just be aware that, even though the results may be fabulous, you should be very careful what you let happen to your dog.

Goodluck.

[tessa_s212]

In that case, I suggest you ditch this trainer and do like I had to do: learn on your own.

I have started a thread asking for good books. Take a look at it, find what books interest you, and start learning! I'm going to put up a long list of books I've already found that I plan to read, and hope even more people suggest good, educational bokos.

[Purdue#1]

Purdue - I haven't read this whole thread, I've only skimmed it, but I do want to contribute something here. I took my dog to a trainer very much like the one you have described. He is a former K9 officer and trains dogs for police, military and rescue work. I did a little research but admittedly, only into his results and not his methods. I was VERY impressed with his dogs and how well trained they were. They would do a down-stay for the entire class with 20 dogs running around them and they never took their eyes off the trainer. This guy is on the board of the local humane society and is a very well known trainer in my city.

The second class I went to, I told the trainer I was concerned about Charlie's biting (just puppy biting, not aggressive) and he instructed me what to do. What he demonstrated was to take Charlie's slip collar and yank it to cut off his air supply and said "if he can't breathe, he won't bite". As soon as he let go, Charlie started coughing and then vomited.

The following day I did some further reseach on this trainer and found that he has lawsuit after lawsuit against him, mostly for vet bills for dogs that he has "trained" and injured. I then discussed all this with my vet, who told me she has treated several dogs trained by this man for injuries to their necks and legs.

Needless to say, I did not go back to the class. So.....whatever training you decide to proceed with, just be aware that, even though the results may be fabulous, you should be very careful what you let happen to your dog.

Goodluck.


What area of indiana do you live in if you can tell me? What was his name?

[Charliesmommy]

I PM'd you.

[Beanie]

Martin states that he's reached "master trainer" level.

I just have to say that this sound like a Pokemon level or something. MASTER TRAINER. CAPTURED ALL 150 POKEMANS.

Everything else intelligent to say has been said in this thread already. I just wanted to interject some really lame humor. =>

[Doberluv]

If you're so impressed with police dog training and think they have to be beaten with a stick, think again. Regardless of how push button these dogs become that this nut job is intimidating, how can that be worth what is being done to these dogs? Get a machine. What on earth could be so important to do with your dog that it is worth this abuse? That you think they're happy and undamaged is meaningless. You are not in a position to make that assessment. You do not know dog behavior well enough.

cross posted from another place where some other ignorant and uninformed yo yo with a closed mind thought that positive reinforcement fell short with police dog training:

Actually, scent detection *is* being trained with operant conditioning and clickers. Steve White was a trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State, accredited as a Master Trainer in '93 the Washington State Police Canine Association, Steve is also a past Executive Board Member of that body. He's been an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement. Steve has instructed at seminars in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and The United Kingdom. He is currently a primary instructor at Karen Pryor's ClickerExpo. He has taught obedience classes at parks, community centers, and kennels. His articles have appeared in police K-9 and dog training publications in the U.S. and Canada. He specializes in teaching behavior modification, tracking, and scent work through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning. He provides consultation and training to K-9 units on administrative and legal issues, and has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.

Do check out the CAAPDT seminar in Calgary, Canada this year. He will be speaking as will Ray Coppinger, so you can get a dose of ideas about pack theory and operant conditioning all at the same time. I hear that if he shows his video on suspect apprehension it will leave you breathless.

Shall I go on?


The Texas Task Force 1 of FEMA uses clicker training. A "clicker" trainer in Keller, TX who procures dogs for DPS (state police), Customs and some private explosive and narcotic detection companies imprints dogs for explosive and narcatic work with great success. Some of the above mentioned use clickers and some don't, but they all use use positive reinforcement to train.

Some people might say I'm too direct or too hard on people, that I'm not using positive reinforcement as I do on dogs, but people understand human culture and human language. People should be able to relate to basic humane morality. A lot of people are going to be cautious to not hurt your feelings, to skirt around issues in order to try and educate you without causing you to tuck tail and run. But I'm not. I'm direct and I'm going to tell you how I feel. The purpose is not to squash you so far that you sink, but to give you a wake up call because you NEED one. You can argue till the cows come home, but you are not in a position to argue with the people who know behavior or are experienced trainers and dog people here. Some people will coddle you if you're young. But if you're old enough to be on a dog forum and are able to understand English, can read and have any morals, you're old enough to take this in.

You have a lot to learn about dog behavior. What you're doing is a travesty. What you're allowing this sick individual who calls himself a dog trainer to do to your dog is a crime against life and living beings. Beating a dog with a stick, causing pain and fear (and by God it does!) and making him do some of these ridiculous tasks, such as not moving for three hours is so horrible, so cruel and atrocious to do to an innocent and helpless animal.

One day, when you're dog is old and gray, ready to leave this world, (which won't be too long from now) he'll look into your eyes one last time, searching for a connection, but there won't be any. And you'll look into his eyes, looking for love and approval for yourself and all you'll see will be empty, hollow holes that were never filled with understanding and love. You might, (if you possess any conscious at all) look back on what you did and be tortured with sadness and guilt for the rest of your days. And the angels will weep for you.

Get a grip on yourself. Stop rejecting compassion for animals and falling for this brain washing this guy has dealt you. If you can love a dog, then how can you hit him with a stick and make him do all those horrible things? If you do not feel love for your dog, find him a new home. You have no business owning a dog. So what if his dogs can do amazing things because they're afraid to do otherwise! So what if a dog can work under pressure because he's been to hell and back? It's not worth it no matter what we exploit dogs for. Why would anyone care if a dog can not move for 3 hours? There's something wrong with....something missing from someone who is impressed and made glad with that. It's not natural for a living breathing being to be forced to act like an inanimate object. It's CRUEL! You CAN have a well trained dog without this stern, harsh, abusive treatment. YES IT IS ABUSIVE!!!! And no, there is NO difference between fearing you or fearing the corrections. The two go together. Dogs learn by association, which ought to be obvious to even the most novice dog owners. You see it every day thousands of times. For you to make statements like you did about fearing corrections being different than fearing you is WRONG! If you want your dog to even fear corrections....to fear at all, something is wrong and you shouldn't have a dog at all. Get a robot. Or find another way to train your dog. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS!!! If you want help with those other ways, just ask for it.

[BlackPuppy]

Hmm, Ivan Balabanov uses all motivational training (with little food) to train his top ranking dogs. No leash jerking, no forced positions, the word "no" is used quietly and only as an informational communication. Wouldn't you rather have a that kind of relationship with your dog?

Obedience without Conflict
News flash 2005 AWDF IPO 3 Championship
top 4 obedience scores
by dogs trained or coached by Ivan
achieved high Obedience with 99 points, 98 points , 97 points and 96 points !!!
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/video.htm

Accomplishments:
http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/accomplishment.htm
in Obedience
1993 USA Nationals second in obedience
High Obedience 1994 USA Nationals
High Obedience 1995 northwest regionals
High Obedience 1997 North American
High Obedience 1999 DVG Nationals
High Obedience 2000 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2000 FCI/IPO World Championship (all breed)
High Obedience 2001 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2001 USA North Americans
High Obedience 2002 World Championship for Belgian Shepherds
High Obedience 2003 American Working Malinois Association
High Obedience 2003 USA Nationals
High Obedience 2005 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2005 AWMA Championship
High Obedience 2006 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2007 AWDF Championship
High Obedience 2007 FMBB Championship

Just worth looking into.

[whatszmatter]

If you think Ivan has never used an ecollar or prong collar you would be very much mistaken. Very mistaken. Yes, he uses marker training very well, and you'll also notice that almost all the dogs in his video are wearing prong collars as well, and he knows how and when to correct.

[dr2little]

I feel sick just reading this. There is no way in he!! that ANYONE should hit a dog in the name of training. I'm absolutely shocked that you would allow someone to treat your dog that way. Why even have a dog????

I really couldn't read much of this thread, after you allowed this so called 'trainer' to abuse your dog....I'd read enough:mad:

Aggression work should NEVER include physical punishment. Your dog is not cured...maybe broken, maybe the behaviors are surpressed but he's certainly not cured..:confused:

[Boemy]

I think corrections have a place in training, if used properly and if needed, but this guy sounds waaaaay over the edge. He sounds outright abusive. You're going to make your dog afraid of you. Your dog isn't going to just "fear your corrections". How is what you're doing different from what some abusive guy does when he hits his dog with a stick? His dog fears HIM as well as the stick. You have better intentions than that guy, but the actions are the same and your dog's reaction is going to be the same.

Dogs CAN enjoy obedience training without any kind of correction. In fact, it is natural to them. They're descended from social animals who naturally cooperate and "follow the leader". (Imagine a wolf pack where, instead of teaming up on a single elk, the wolves scatter and each try to chase down their own elk. That would be pretty useless, wouldn't it?) Try training a cat and you will soon see the difference . . .

[Purdue#1]

Yeah and the Leader physically corrects them too when they are doing something they don't like with their own teeth.

[Dekka]

Hmm really..since when? You really need to watch dog behaviour. Teeth are hardly ever used, and almost never by the alpha dog, the lower ranking dogs are more likely to cause injury to other lower ranking dogs....so if you wish to act like a middle/lower ranking dog, force might work. And personally I think using force to train a dog lowers us. We are superior due to our brains. If you need to use force you are lowering yourself to the 'primitive' level. I prefer to raise the dog, and use my brain. Perhaps the trainer prefers to use brawn over brains, I prefer to use my head.

Oh and I brought this up this thread at the dinner table tonite. Before I could say how I felt about it, my 6 year old son was upset. "You shouldn't hit dogs, thats mean. She should train her dog, not hit him" Out of the mouths of babes....

[Purdue#1]

That you think they're happy and undamaged is meaningless. You are not in a position to make that assessment. You do not know dog behavior well enough.


I may not know every single thing about dog behavior, but i know my dogs, and i could tell if sly was "damaged", and he's not. Don't sit there and say i can't tell if my dogs are toatally freaked out or not all the time. Sly still is himself. He romps and rolls in the yard with mickey and I and she is on his heels trying to get the bone out of his mouth. He heads straight for the car door when we let them out of their pen because he wants to go for a ride in the car. He's no longer aggressive with other dogs that's changed, but as far as who he is hasn't one bit.

And i don't tuck my tail and run. I stand and never backdown.

[Dekka]

LOL Purdue...You don't get it do you? We said it might not happen overnight. It make take a week, a month, a few months, but eventually your dog will quit forgiving you, and start fearing you.

[tessa_s212]

LOL Purdue...You don't get it do you? We said it might not happen overnight. It make take a week, a month, a few months, but eventually your dog will quit forgiving you, and start fearing you.

Take it from a person that did ruin her dogs through correctional training. Heck, I didn't even abuse them with sticks! All I used to do was correct too much and too harshly, never mind abusing a dog wtih a stick.

It might not be right now. But if you continue with these methods, your dog will not trust you. He will fear you, whether you will admit it right now or not.

Many of these people might have more experience training dogs than you've been alive. I wouldn't be as cocky and confident that you are so right about dog behavior and training. My advice to you is to humble yourself, and start reading. You have a lot to learn.

[BlackPuppy]

If you think Ivan has never used an ecollar or prong collar you would be very much mistaken. Very mistaken. Yes, he uses marker training very well, and you'll also notice that almost all the dogs in his video are wearing prong collars as well, and he knows how and when to correct.


My dogs wear prong collars, too. Doesn't mean I abuse my dog.

Have you been to an Ivan Seminar? I have. 25 dogs with obedience problems attended, including mine. All problems were solved, even the crazy Czech police dog. Not once was a correction necessary, not even the crazy Czeck police dog. :) I have his video and am using it on my puppy. She's so motivated you can hear her thump on the floor when she downs.

[whatszmatter]

Yes, and what happens in a seminar and in training, are two different things. I"m not going to get into another debate where everyone knows everything.

I took your post to mean that he doesn't correct his dogs, its all motivational, and that's not true. Ivan is a world class competitor, no doubt, very talented as well. He's won 2 of the biggest international comps already this year and could win a 3rd.

and yes dogs that have been on prong collars and e-collars can still make a thump when they down, among other things.

and just because I made a comment on Ivan, I don't want others to confuse it with me sticking up for what this other guy is doing. I'm not.

[mantine]

One day, when you're dog is old and gray, ready to leave this world, (which won't be too long from now) he'll look into your eyes one last time, searching for a connection, but there won't be any. And you'll look into his eyes, looking for love and approval for yourself and all you'll see will be empty, hollow holes that were never filled with understanding and love. You might, (if you possess any conscious at all) look back on what you did and be tortured with sadness and guilt for the rest of your days. And the angels will weep for you.

Oh my gosh Doberluv, that about made me cry when I read it. Thinking about that moment like that :o( - I will alway be good to Grizzley!

[Purdue#1]

A subdominant wolf can be identified in the pack through its body language as well. Subdominant wolves will lower its body, tuck its tail, and pull its ears back when confronting a wolf of higher standing. At the bottom of the hierarchy is the omega wolf. This wolf can be either male or female. This wolf is used as an outlet for aggression for the rest of the wolves, especially the alpha. The alpha wolf will decide if and when other wolves are allowed to eat. The omega wolf usually goes last and must pick over what everyone else has taken. The omega also initiates play.

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/PPT/Ecology/observations_of_behavior_on_the_.htm

[Herschel]

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/PPT/Ecology/observations_of_behavior_on_the_.htm

So you're taking your aggression out on your dog because you see him as an incredibly low member of your family, and it makes you feel like the alpha male? Seriously? Is that the point you're trying to make?

I guess that agrees pretty well with everything that we've said. This type of training only serves to boost ego and make the trainer feel more in control. In actuality, the opposite is true, and the trainer is lowering himself below the level of the animal and using barbaric techniques.

(By the way, dogs aren't wolves)

[tessa_s212]

I guess that agrees pretty well with everything that we've said. This type of training only serves to boost ego and make the trainer feel more in control. In actuality, the opposite is true, and the trainer is lowering himself below the level of the animal and using barbaric techniques.

(By the way, dogs aren't wolves)

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[mantine]

Are you a wolf purdue?

[Purdue#1]

i responding to dekka's post.:rolleyes:

Hmm really..since when? You really need to watch dog behaviour. Teeth are hardly ever used, and almost never by the alpha dog, the lower ranking dogs are more likely to cause injury to other lower ranking dogs....so if you wish to act like a middle/lower ranking dog, force might work. And personally I think using force to train a dog lowers us. We are superior due to our brains. If you need to use force you are lowering yourself to the 'primitive' level. I prefer to raise the dog, and use my brain. Perhaps the trainer prefers to use brawn over brains, I prefer to use my head.

Oh and I brought this up this thread at the dinner table tonite. Before I could say how I felt about it, my 6 year old son was upset. "You shouldn't hit dogs, thats mean. She should train her dog, not hit him" Out of the mouths of babes....



Yeah koehler's methods don't work when twice as many people loved his book and methods as hated them:

http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876055773/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-7927953-3643926?ie=UTF8&qid=1185220822&sr=1-4

[Beanie]

Exactly what bearing does Amazon reviews of a book have on the effectiveness of training techniques?

[otch1]

Holy cow... Purdue, I understand there's no changing your mind about training methods. I got that feeling from the first page of this thread. If telling you that they do not have the credentials they claim to, they do not and could not compete with most trainers in the industry, their dogs couldn't hold their own in a competition agility or obedience ring, hence none of them being titled or even registered, their methods being considered "old school", abusive and unnecessary by some of the best in the industry... if none of that matters to you when hiring a trainer, you'll definitely end up learning the hard way. Again, it's considered the lazy mans way of training. They simply don't know any better. I won't comment on prongs, chains, food reward, no food used, clicker, no clicker. I'm talking about some of the more serious issues in programs like this. For some clients who've come from schools like these, I've seen first hand the results of this when it backfires. I hope you never find yourself there in your learning process.

[tessa_s212]

I hope you never find yourself there in your learning process.

And more importantly, I hope her dog isn't terribly damaged in the process. However, sometimes that's what it takes to get a person to finally learn and see, if they ever actually do. :(

[Lizmo]

I feel sick just reading this. There is no way in he!! that ANYONE should hit a dog in the name of training. I'm absolutely shocked that you would allow someone to treat your dog that way. Why even have a dog????

I really couldn't read much of this thread, after you allowed this so called 'trainer' to abuse your dog....I'd read enough:mad:

Aggression work should NEVER include physical punishment. Your dog is not cured...maybe broken, maybe the behaviors are surpressed but he's certainly not cured..:confused:

Holy crap!! ^^^ Ditto :mad:

[Momof2Pups]

This type of "training" royally pisses me off. I feel sorry for your dog. How would you like it if someone you trusted with your life hit you with sticks and made you fear them to gain control to get you to behave, instead of earning your respect and teaching you with compassion and having you want to learn? I'm sure you'd love it, and love the person even more, right?

[Doberluv]

This thread is a waste of our time and a waste of other members' time who need and want our support and help. This is nothing but attention seeking behavior so this will be my last reply.

No amount of education, no amount of reasoning or logic will impact the OP what so ever, who is not only atrociously ignorant of dog behavior, knows nothing about training whatsoever, knows nothing about wolf behavior, which is irrelevant anyhow, but also obviously lacks empathy. That, my friends is the essence of the whole thing IMO. No one with empathy could do or approve of treating an animal with such abuse. Without empathy, the person can not put themselves in another's shoes. Therefore, information is not processed in a way that most of us understand. If you can not put yourself in another's shoes, how can you judge what effect an action will have on an individual, be it an animal or human? It doesn't matter what the facts are, what PHDs in behavior say, what research and experienced dog owners and trainers say. It has no effect whatsoever on an individual who totally lacks empathy. All the emotions are skewed. In fact, my very harsh words are likely to have no effect on this person. There are no emotions there to receive or process such a tongue lashing.

Bottom line: Logic, reasoning, information from reliable sources, demonstration...none of it is processed normally because you need empathy to make sense of all those things.

That said, this is a waste of time and turning into nothing but attention seeking behavior, a classic sign of narcissism.

People who resort to beating up animals are the lowest of the lows in my book. I don't care how I come off. I've had enough of reading about your flaunting and bragging of mistreatment of dogs. You just might get your face bitten off one day, if not by your dog, by someone who loves dogs and sees you beating yours with a stick. I know, if I saw someone doing that, I'd take their dog away from them and kick their a$$.

[PWCorgi]

:hail: :hail: Dober

[jess2416]

:hail: :hail: Dober

Agreed :hail: :hail:

[tessa_s212]

Agreed

Agreed with Jess who agreed with PW who agreeed with Dober
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[Boemy]

A subdominant wolf can be identified in the pack through its body language as well. Subdominant wolves will lower its body, tuck its tail, and pull its ears back when confronting a wolf of higher standing. At the bottom of the hierarchy is the omega wolf. This wolf can be either male or female. This wolf is used as an outlet for aggression for the rest of the wolves, especially the alpha. The alpha wolf will decide if and when other wolves are allowed to eat. The omega wolf usually goes last and must pick over what everyone else has taken. The omega also initiates play.


You don't own a wolf. You own a dog, an animal that has been selectively bred for thousands of years to be happy obeying humans and learning their commands. You don't need to BEAT obedience into your dog like you're doing. It is a DOG. It already wants to please you. Stop hitting it--YOU DON'T NEED TO.

Incidentally, people who are raising "tame" wolves and wolf hybrids are told to NEVER HIT THEIR ANIMALS.

Never use prong collars or choke chains. If you are able to properly train your animal these are unnecessary and can cause problems. The only methods I've ever seen work on wolves are positive reinforcement, not punishment. Also, one bad experience on a leash (or anywhere) can ruin the animal for future handling

http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/wantwolf-jm.html

[doberkim]

I don't know that they're being suckered into believing it. I don't know this guy or what he does, I know a few of his protection pics have me scratching my head about what' hes doing.

But from the words of Ian Dunbar himself, there is a big drop off in reliability in OB performances in the past few years, and it seems more people doing those competitions are "positive only" trainers. But we've (not you and i, but this board) had this discussion a thousand times before.

I believe most of the drop off has been that obedience is a sport of precision - to do well, you need to strive to attain perfection. You can't hope to place or get an OTCH with 180's as scores, even though its qualifying. And there are so many other venues that do NOT require that precision and strict training. In fact, the fact that there are so many other venues PERIOD mean people can not do something else and not even DO obedience - Ob 30 years ago was the only game in town. Specifically AKC ob. Now you have agility, rally, freestyle, you have UKC, you have APDT, you have CDSP, you've got WWKC - so many other venues and orgs that AKC has lost its stronghold on traditional obedience.

He can go on a down-stay with 20 other dogs moving around him and not break the command i gave him. If he saw another dog tonight he would not care. He trusts me that that other dog means nothing and will do nothing.

My dog does not fear me or my stave. He does have the ability to play. He plays with me and mickey all the time. If anything it has made him want to be near me more.

let's not kid ourselves. Your dog is afraid of being hit in the butt again with the stave - that is why his behavior has "changed". All you have done is add stress to the situation.

Dogs are NEVER CURED OF AGGRESSION.

[doberkim]

I want him to fear a correction.

And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.

Wrong - my dog LOVES obedience. My dog DRIVES me to work. My dog will put himself in heel position and ASK to work. I've got a 90 lb doberman that throws himself at heel and barks until we start heeling. I've got a dog that stares holes into my face with his perfect attention to get what he wants. When I bring out jumps he takes them on his own repeatedly. When I pull out his dumbbell he starts circling, jumping and barking in his excitement for the retrieve.

If that isn't loving what he does, I don't know what is.

[doberkim]

[QUOTE=Herschel;768413]Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:


[QUOTE]

It proves a lot to me. Your dog should be able to handle those exercises with no breaks if he's trained the way you say he is. Richling's K-9 can do it. One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

And the down-stay that long is to advance the dog in its training.


Lordy, one training session and you are a walking billboard for this guy. Seems his training worked better on YOU than it did Sly. Has to say a lot - someone falls so quickly for the first thing that works. It's also an easy way out - correcting to get what you want instead of putting in the time and building a relationship.

What my dog SHOULD be able to handle is a variety of things happily and trusting that his human counterpart will lead him in a fair and just manner.

[DanL]

I'm not going to comment too much on the training methods. I'm of the opinion that there is no one best way to train, and you need to find what works for your dog. What they are doing is not the way to train most dogs, but for working dogs, some of those methods are going to be used. Hershel asked what the point of a 3 hour down was. For a protection dog, it might need to be in one place for 8 hours at a time, alert and focused on it's task. That's the point. A house dog will probably never need to do that, but a dog that is on a job might, and it needs to know what is expected of it. It's all about discipline. At one of Daisy's classes, I had Gunnar with me, I had him in a down for 45 minutes while 16 dogs were walking all around him. What was the point? I didn't want him wandering around the paddock while the class was going on, and it was 90 degrees out- far too hot to leave him in a crate or in the van. My goal for him is I want to be able to give a command, have him obey it, and not break until I tell him he can, no matter how long or what the conditions are.

Whatz wrote "I'd have to say after looking at his site, I do like the agility course, but not much else. It is hard on a dog, its supposed to be, but it serves a purpose to what we do. Problem solving skills for the dog, learning to work thru stress, learning to work with their handler, and building confidence."

That is how I feel about that course. It'd be awesome to take Gunnar on. We don't have to call it an agility course, since that seems to offend those who do "real" agility. Let's call it an obstacle course. If these guys are training working dogs, police/protection dogs, those dogs need to be able to work in any type of environment, and that kind of obstacle course will help them feel confident when they are put into a stressful situation while they are on the job.

To me, the kind of training they are doing isn't for everyone, and isn't for every dog. I wouldn't take anything less than a stable working dog to a place like that. Certainly your normal household pet dog wouldn't need to be subjected to that kind of stress. I'm sure most of you would cringe at the training we started with Gunnar, with handlers firing guns over the dog's head, cracking whips right next to them, smacking the dogs with rattle sticks while they are on a bite, having the dog go after the decoy over a wall or thru a window or over some barrels stacked up. Obviously Gunnar isn't at that point yet, he's months away from being there, but he's being put in stress situations that are based on his training level, and as he progresses the stress levels will increase. If a police dog or protection dog can't hold a bite while the bad guy is hitting them, or if they are scared to jump over a wall to get the bad guy, they are no good for the job. Training the dog to be able to keep focused on it's task with that kind of physical distraction is a basic element for a dog doing that kind of work. No one is hitting the dogs to make them obey commands, that's for sure, but the dogs are subjected to physical and mental stress and are pushed hard while on the field, to condition them to being stable and focused in any situation they might find themselves in. I think that is the background these guys come from, and for them to accept house pets into their program is probably not a good move, but for training a stable working type dog, they are doing what many other trainers are doing, whether you agree or not.

[Doberluv]

Dan, I believe this is an Aussie, isn't it? How many Aussies are used to take down criminals? This dog isn't being trained for police or military work. This is an amatuer dog owner who is impressed with machine like precision. It's disgusting.

Anyhow....many police departments are turning to positive method training for their dogs. Steve White?

Mistreating an animal, hitting it with a stick to intimidate him, to stop him from going after another dog is not proper training. It's abuse.

I think the human race gets carried away with the means to the end mentality. To enslave another species by way of abuse (and this is abuse) is immoral and disgusting. The ends do not justify the means, no matter what benefits mankind. (the superior species???) It isn't right.

I hope your dog isn't being hit with sticks and made to stay in one position for 3 hours. Nothing wrong with dogs working but IMO, not to the point of making them miserable. There is nothing natural about staying in one place for hours and hours. What earthly reason justifies that? Put a dog behind a fence where it can move, but is secure. Tying him up would even be preferrable. At least he could move. But to make him stay in ONE position for hours and hours? No way is that nice.

You're interested in police dog training. I recommend you look at Steve White. It is also important to keep something in mind. That is, that most dogs on this forum are pets, some show dogs, some agility and other sport dogs. It's important to keep those things separate....not that people get the mistaken idea that it is a proper way to deal with their pet dogs....dogs who may be having aggression problems. Aggression is never treated with aggression by behaviorists who know dog behavior. There are studies up the ying yang about that. Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info. if you like. It's a lot to read, but interesting.

[whatszmatter]

Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info.

Really, yours, you found that and put it all together, or you copied and pasted from another poster on another board??

[mod edit: other websites to be advertised in our other websites forum]

[Herschel]

Advance the dog in its training for what? What is your goal with all of this training? There are plenty of us that have well-rounded, civilized dogs that don't use physical abuse to train. What is the purpose that you want out of your dog?


Again, I ask, what are you training for?

[DanL]

Dan, I believe this is an Aussie, isn't it? How many Aussies are used to take down criminals? This dog isn't being trained for police or military work. This is an amatuer dog owner who is impressed with machine like precision. It's disgusting.

I hope your dog isn't being hit with sticks and made to stay in one position for 3 hours. Nothing wrong with dogs working but IMO, not to the point of making them miserable. There is nothing natural about staying in one place for hours and hours. What earthly reason justifies that?

You're interested in police dog training. I recommend you look at Steve White. It is also important to keep something in mind. That is, that most dogs on this forum are pets, some show dogs, some agility and other sport dogs. It's important to keep those things separate....not that people get the mistaken idea that it is a proper way to deal with their pet dogs....dogs who may be having aggression problems. Aggression is never treated with aggression by behaviorists who know dog behavior. There are studies up the ying yang about that. Look at my electronic trainig device information for some interesting and important info. if you like. It's a lot to read, but interesting.

Like I said, I wouldn't recommend that guy and his training methods for a house pet, but his obstacle course is pretty cool! You also have to consider, do they do the same training on every dog? Is every dog required to do 3 hour downs? I hope not, not if they are training dogs for the general public along with police/protection dogs.

Gunnar isn't being hit with a stick for discipline. I'd never allow that. But, if his training advances to the point where he is being hit with a stick to distract him from his target and task, that is part of the training. It's not a discipline thing, it's a major distraction to try and get the dog off his target. The guys I'm working with use all methods of training devices- prong collars, harnesses, agitation collars, tie backs, long lines, etc. when and where applicable, but all of the training is done in small steps with rewards, praise, and positive outcomes for the dog. The dog always wins the game and goes off the field feeling good about what he just did