Billy is simply a nightmare...

[Tazwell]

So, In my rescue, we have this dog named Billy. He's a Purebred Heinz 57.

He was adopted out at 8 weeks from us, then returned at 8 months because his owners were stupid. They didn't train him a thing, and now he's an 85lb monster with no manners. He's been adopted and returned 3 times (each within a day or two) since then, now he's about 10.5 months old. He's not in foster care, he's being boarded at the vet-- Simply because nobody can handle him. When my current fosters are gone, I plan on taking him on-- Since I'm the only large-breed foster home they have. But honestly, I'm terrified. I'm not terrified for myself, I'm terrified for my aquariums, my small dogs, my cats, etc. He does not respect the baby-gates. It's going to be an absolute war-zone.

The vet's office can't handle him, he's a nightmare to them. When he walks through the place, he breaks things, knocks stuff down, grabs stuff, jumps on people, etc. They refuse to walk him out on anything but a prong collar, which they don't even use correctly. They let it slide down to the base of his neck, and it doesn't stop his pulling at all.

So, here comes the questions--

Twice a week, he's taken out of the vet and taken to Petsmart for our rescue showing. The last two people who have been in charge of him will not handle him anymore, he's just too much. I've managed to keep him in the back seat of the car, by simply showing him the bottle of bitter-apple.

But at the store, it's a whole different story. He barks like a maniac, he never stops. He tackles anyone and everything. He forces his way where he wants to go, no matter what. He yanks everyone everywhere. I've taken to using the choke-chain on him, since it's easier for me to handle than the prong. I place it right behind his ears, like it should be. He walks alright on it.

Correction wise, I've done this. I've taught him to sit/stay, down/stay. I've been trying to teach him to walk correctly on the leash without choking himself by doing the pull/180 degree turn technique. Everytime he pulls or lunges, I turn around and walk the other direction. It seems to help a bit. I do the same thing when he starts barking at things. I stand up from the chair and we walk away, immediately. We can't let anyone get too close, because he simply won't stay down. He tries to jump up on everyone, and he's way to big for that. I've also tried teaching him the word "quiet," And he knows it, but it doesn't last when I give the command.

I would continue working with him in this manner, but the worst part is his frustration. When he gets frustrated, he'll just start bucking like a wild beast, grabbing his leash or any pillow, bag, box or toy near him and start throwing it around like crazy. It's horrendous to watch, for people walking by in the stores. I carry bitter apple spray with me so that when he does that, I can make him stop by showing him the bottle. I can't really just ignore him if he's tugging on the leash, since no matter what, I'll be playing tug-o-war with him.

Today, he got frustrated and went for my shoes. He began mauling my shoes, and even my pant legs at the ankles, and I just stood there and ignored him. I just didn't know what to do, so I just stopped and thought. Instead of a correction, I used the time to think about what I was doing, and I let him get bored. He stopped within about 10 seconds or so, but it just can't go on like this. He also got frustrated when I wouldn't let him go to tackle somebody, and I told him to sit, so he turned around and began barking to my face. Out of sheer frustration, like he was yelling at me.

Today, the main dog coordinator just said that we have to take a break with him. He's not getting anywhere. I came out from there, with my arms covered in gouges and scratches. 2 of them will probably will scar. I'm talking bloody, 6" long scratches. They're all just claw marks, from him jumping up on me. He's as lovable as can be, he's just a 85lb puppy with NO manners at all. He's not dominant, or aggressive, or anything.

The group is trying to find a training program for him to go in, in the mean-time. But does anybody have ANY suggestions for me, what-so-ever? How do you control a dog like this? I can take him to a different environment to work, I just don't know what to do with him.

And just for fun, here's some pictures. Breed guesses are appreciated!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/Tazwell/DSC00065.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/Tazwell/DSC00073.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/Tazwell/MI202.80826681x.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/Tazwell/MI202.80826682x.jpg

[squirtsmom]

That is a beautiful dog. The trainers on here will help you.

[Cessena]

Oh he's just beautiful. I bet part of the problem is people are adopting him because of his dashing good looks instead of his personality. (We had a pitt like that at a shelter I used to work at, he was SOOOO handsome, but he was a terror, he'd go right over a 6' fence, no problem. He just kept getting adopted to the wrong people. The fourth time he was returned we thought he might be put down.)

I wonder how much of this dogs problem is related to him being confined a lot and not getting enough chances to really blow off steam. Especially at his age, aren't dogs that age really high energy?

Just a thought, but maybe if he was pretty worn out before the training sessions he would have less energy to think of things to do to make trouble.

You talk a lot in your post about stuff you do to control him, like the bitter apple spray. Do you give him something positive to do when you stop him from doing something you don't want? Like, you stop him from tackling someone and instead of tackling someone he gets to play with a favorite toy. If not that might be why he is getting so frustrated, all that energy and desire to do things doesn't go away just because we want it to.

Anyway, I'm not a trainer, so forgive me if this is totally off base or presumtious, I'm sure someone else has better advice.

[Zoom]

Billy looks like he has some pit to him, not really sure what else. Maybe shepherd/lab makes up the other part?

It sounds like Billy is desperately wanting someone to show him how to act; I'm not meaning that in a "well, duh" way, I mean that he's very nervous and on edge because he can sense that what he's doing isn't right, but he doesn't know any other way so far. Combine that with the intense energy of his breeds?/age and you have Billy.

First off, you need to find a secure area, tennis court or something, that he can safely be off-leash in. Then you need to run him ragged. And then do it again. Exercise cannot be stressed enough as the basis for his traning, because unless he is tired enough to start to listen, very little of what you do is going to sink in.

He doesn't know how to respond to frustration yet. Teach him to sit as a way to say "please"...meaning that he now has to sit before he gets anything at all, including his food or attention. Ignore the temper tantrums; put him in a secure spot and just walk away. Return when he's calm and praise him...you might feel like a yo-yo for a bit because as you come back he gets wild and you need to walk away again. Most dogs are pretty quick to catch on to the fact that a certain behavior gets them what they want.

I would also quit taking him to Petsmart for now. You cannot, for the mental health of Billy and the personal safety of other people, attempt to rehome him for awhile. He is getting overstimulated during the adopt-a-thons and each time that happens is another time he learns that being a spaz is the "correct" way to act. Start your obedience training off at home where it's quiet and with low distractions. Practice your sits, downs, stays, comes, until they are 100% in that space...meaning you can walk to the end of a 15-foot long line and he doesn't break whatever position he's in. You can jump up and down at the end of the lead and he stays put, things like that. When he's good there, then add in a distraction. Have someone else in the room just to start with. Practice proper greeting...he must sit and stay and be fine with being ignored. Put him in the sit and have the other person walk towards you. If Billy gets up at all, the person turns around and walks away and you put Billy in the sit again. Repeat ad nauseum until Billy holds the sit/stay all the way through you and the other person shaking hands and saying hi to each other. If he has accomplished this, then the other person can quietly and calmly greet Billy himself.

Slowly add in more and more distractions, more people, a loud radio, a bouncing ball, moving outdoors, etc. If you find that Billy will simply not settle enough to listen, then you've tried to add in too much too quickly and need to back up a step or two to where he had been solid and then add one tiny step on to that place.

The dogs that are spastic and very high energy can turn out to be some of the best dogs, provided they get the proper training and stimulation that they need. You already know this, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

One more thing, I would really ditch the choke chain. You do have it fitted properly, which is rare, but I find that they are nigh well useless on dogs that pull and jump. If you like the action of it, get a martingale collar with a chain loop. Or look into a Canny Collar...it's kind of like the Gentle Leaders, except that it works with a dogs natural opposition reflex. it applies pressure behind the ears when it pulls and since dogs lean into pressure, he will lean backwards and hence not pull. Remember to reward like there's no tomorrow for EVERYTHING he gets correct!! This is very much a dog that is going to do the best on positive motivations, since he's probably had the daylights corrected out of him by everyone else on the planet and it's not made much of a difference. It doesn't matter if they were doing it incorrectly, he's still learned to ignore the punishments.

Good luck and don't hestitate to ask more questions or for clarification!

Where are you at, might I ask?

[Sweet72947]

I'm in rescue too, and Billy's story is quite famliar to me. :rolleyes:. You think he's bad, try handling a 100lb, mouthy, jumpy, Neapolitan Mastiff :yikes:. Took her out, ended up with a mouth-shaped bruise on my arm for a week, didn't take her out again, lol. Anyways, you've received a lot of good advice here. I was just wondering, is there any way you can get him into foster with somebody who doesn't have other pets, or maybe just has one other pet so that they can focus a lot of time on Billy? Billy needs some stability and a place where he can unleash his tons of energy. Maybe if you contact some trainers in your area, they might be willing to help. Some trainers will take dogs into their homes to live with them while they train them. Billy might benefit from that.

Oh, and meanwhile, go slap around those first owners for being stupid and not training this dog while he was little.:mad:

This could be reaching, but to me he looks like he could be a Malinois/American Bulldog mix. His coloring just looks very malinois-ish to me.

[Tazwell]

Thanks, your replies have given me some new ideas!

And to answer the rewarding question, I do reward him with lots and lots of treats. When he's being calm, we work on obedience training, which has constant rewarding and plenty of mental stimuation. I thought it would help.

With our schedule, We as a group just don't have the time to run him ragged, and I'm not in a position to make decisions. However, I will suggest (and I think they'll listen) That we stop taking him to Petsmart, and I'll personally take him somewhere to train him and exercise him often. I just can't think of a good secure place to run him... I'll find one, I suppose. We're thinking of hiring a trainer for him, but we're trying to figure out how to pay for that.

As for the martingale collars with the chains, I use them on my own fosters, and I hadn't seen any heavy-duty ones at the Petsmart I go to. Perhaps if I see one, I'll pick it up! I sure don't like the dissapproving looks I get for using the choker... I'll just figure out what works best :)

And I'm in the Detroit area... I know of a few wonderful trainers around here, hopefully we'll be able to hire one of them!

Thanks again, and I'll post any more questions as I think of them! :)

[Dekka]

Hmm its to bad he looks pittie, I would be willing to foster him (sounds like fun) I don't have any fosters in at the moment.

[Doberluv]

I can recommend some books. You really should read them. It could do a world of good. You can order them on Dogwise.com or somewhere else.

Culture Clash: Jean Donaldson ***** Fabulous! A must read! (my favorite)

Don't Shoot the Dog: Karen Pryor Another good one to get to the nuts and bolts.

The Other End of the Leash: Patricia McConnell

On Talking Terms with Dogs, Calming Signals: Turid Rugaas (great little book you can read in a sitting)

I highly recommend you go on a reading marathon and fast.

Great post by Zoom. Positive reinforcement is the way to go. You'll make so much more head way with that. Find out what he LOVES and what he wants, which can vary from one instance or context to another. Use that to your advantage. Whatever he wants, you wait for him to show you even an approximation of behavior you want. More exercise is really important, I agree. But he needs some big time mental chores too. He'll find out what behavior works to earn the things he wants and which behavior doesn't get him what he wants. He may be crazy rambunctous, but his behavior can definitely be modified.

A good trainer who really knows behavior and uses gentle methods is important. Don't let anyone be rough with him. That does nothing but harm.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

[TheWholePack]

Billy is indeed a beautiful dog.

You asked about breed, and as it turns out today I took my Blue Heeler (Lucky) to get his summer shave (we live in Mexico and the heat and humidity makes it necessary). I was surprised at the resemblance Billy has to Lucky now that he has short hair! Maybe he has some heeler in him.

I have recently posted training questions and have received some great responses here on the forum. One that I immediately began using is the NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) regimen and it's working beautifully only after 2 days!

I also take Lucky for a slow walk (it makes him think about what he's doing) for about 30 minutes before working with him, it seems to work off more energy than a longer faster walk and he's more focused and ready to pay attention afterwards. At first it's frustrating, but he should catch on quickly as Lucky did. I live in the country so there are few distractions, which helps. Yesterday a rabbit shot out in front of us and I was pleasantly surprised to only get a glance up to me an no pulling on the lead! Progress comes in baby steps!

My saving grace with Lucky (who has far more energy than I do) is a frisbee. I have several that I picked up at Wal-Mart (hate that store) but it's the only soft ones that I could find that won't hurt his teeth when he catches it. It's called a Flippy Flopper in case you're interested. This may be useful to work off some puppy energy if you have some place you can play with him off leash.

All the best with Billy! I'm sure the more experienced here will be able to give you some great advice.

[Doberluv]

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

Here's a great site. You'd be amazed at how receptive even the most difficult dogs can be to clicker training. They enjoy it. It captures their attention, once you get going on it. I urge you to read all about it.

Something you can do in the meantime is have something your dog loves in your pockets at all times. (be careful not to hang your clothes with pockets within reach or the pockets will get eaten out. Trust me, I have first hand knowledge of this. lol) Whenever he looks at you, even for a second....makes eye contact, click and treat. (Once he's been primed to the clicker, which you can read about first thing) It will become rewarding for him to look at you. Then you can put it on a cue and gradually increase the duration of his gaze. This attention training, getting the focus on you can go a long way in assiting all kinds of things and sort of sets the stage from which you will be working.