How to assert myself

[mantine]

How do I assert myself more? I want to be the dominant one in the relationship but I think Grizzley is the one right now. I have been watching the Dog whisperer and I feel like I am as assertive as I can be when he is being bad (like running around with a sock, when I try to get it from him he viscously growls at me, he knows drop it and leave it but will completely ignore me and run around, I know chasing him is a game but I don't know how else to get the object from him when he wont listen or even be distracted by one of his toys.) And even though he is getting better with the jumping if I am on the couch and he starts jumping up he will not listen when I say down. He will get down but then the one paw comes up on the couch. And in puppy class if he got excited seeing another dog in the class and wanted to go over he would not listen at all and would actually bite me. He had me ready to leave pupply class early one night and I had to hold back tears while the trainer interveined. I want to sign him up for the next class but am afraid I won't be able to handle him. I feel like I am doing everything I can to be dominant but I know I must not be. How can I do more when I don't know what more is?

The dog whisperer says its all about body language and not the verbal commands. What kind of things can I do so he will listen. He listens to my husband, all Todd has to do is look at Grizzley and he will stop.

I am ready to try anything, I have seen from other posts there are some trainers out there, please help.

PS, I have tried waving the bitter apple spray when he jumps but it just gets him very angry, it worked in class when he was biting me (the trainer had me spray it on my arms) and it works to keep him from chewing on things but to stop a behavior he gets mad.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to get as much info out as possible. THanks

[Brattina88]

How old is Grizzley? Is he neutered? just wondering...

I just wanted to point out that a lot of people think that their dog is ignoring them, when in fact, the dog simply just doesn't know any better - they haven't been taught otherwise.
What commands does your dog know? Does he know sit / stays, or leave it? Is down you command for lie down, or is down the command for get off?

P.S - I would do a search on Chaz about the dog whisperer. While some of his "ideas" may have some truth, IMO you should stray away from his "training meathods" :rolleyes" ;)

[SisMorphine]

I would start with: crating, having set meal times, and strict NILIF.

[Zoom]

What kind of dog is he and how old?

Right now, the dog knows that he can push you around and he knows that you know it. I would suggest putting him through puppy bootcamp; he must work for every single thing he wants. He wants to eat, he has to perform commands for at least the first half of the meal (sit, down, stand, etc, whatever he knows). He wants to go outside, he has to sit and wait patiently (this is probably going to require the use of a leash) until you let him loose.

In order to get him to drop things, I would resort to trading (or bribing, if you like ;) ) at first. He has a sock, you go get his favorite toy or treat. When he drops the sock to take the goodie, praise him for dropping the sock and let him have it. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES go running after him. If you simply must have whatever he is carrying, purposefully walk after him but don't run. If he runs, you just walk behind him. He might get way ahead of you, this is ok. Since you're not making it fun by running, he'll get bored at some point. The big key here is to NEVER START going after your dog unless you have the time to spend to catch him. Otherwise, you double the time you will spend next time going after him. Again, yummy treats could be useful here, because what fun is a sock that isn't even being chased after when he could have a bit of cheese or something? Make his favorite destructive games as boring as possible by just not participating.

For the paw, that's him pushing the limits. When he does it, matter-of-factly remove the paw from the couch and then praise him the second it touches the floor.

As for why he listens to your husband and not you, probably one part has to do with the fact that Todd has a deeper voice, which tends to garner more respect than a higher-pitched one. I've had to develop a lower pitch to my voice (i'm a pretty short female myself) in order to get the attention of some dogs. Also, NEVER give a command that you cannot or WILL NOT enforce. If you tell the dog to do something, back it up. Make him do it or help him to figure out what you're asking if it's a new thing.

Pushing, shoving, pinching, poking and rolling the dog on his back will not work. Not with most dogs and most definitely not with yours, as it sounds like the dog already has an issue with biting.

I'll address the biting thing in a moment as I fear this post is too long already. :D

[Doberluv]

I'll give you my opinion. You can take it or leave it. But it works with every dog I've ever dealt with. Take the assertive, dominance, won't listen to me, is ignoring me and most of all, the Dog Whispererout of your vocabulary and out of your mind. And start over. Learn how to train your dog using principles of canine learning theory. There is no ambiguous terminology and words that could have a thousand meanings. There are steps to take with a little tweak here and there for your individual dog.

You do not have to be assertive or dominant in your attitude. You could be as meely mouthed, whimpy and soft spoken as a mouse as long as you adhere to the principles of operant and classical conditioning.

In my opinion, your dog does not "know" that he can push you around. And he doesn't "know" that you "know" it. I do not believe that a dog with very few convolutions on his small brain has the ability to analyze that deeply what is going on in your internal workings. He's a dog and is doing what dogs do. And they do what works for them. They have to. They're opportunistic scavengers. They're not concerned with or able to logically work out that you care about something. Either something works or it doesn't. To worry about being dominant over your dog is nothing but a struggle. Your husband is more intimidating to your dog probably and this is why your dog is "listening." Get away from this mind set of over powering your dog and get onto the mindset of training your dog.

I am as assertive as I can be when he is being bad (like running around with a sock, when I try to get it from him he viscously growls at me, he knows drop it and leave it but will completely ignore me and run around, I know chasing him is a game but I don't know how else to get the object from him when he wont listen or even be distracted by one of his toys.)

You have to remember that he is a dog. From a dog's point of view, he is NOT being "bad." He's got a fun thing to play with and he wants to keep it. He is not being insubordinate or obstinate to keep it. Dogs get a possession and they quite naturally want to hold onto it. When you take things from him, naturally, he's going to object. How else would a dog survive in the wild if every Tom, Dick and Harry came along to take his stuff? It's got nothing to do with assertiveness or leadership. Possession is 9/10ths of the law in Dog language. Forget what Cesar Milan says about this. He is not an expert in behavior. Trust me. OK......Do like Zoom said. Trade him. Give him a good reason to give you the item he has. Teach him that it's FUN and REWARDING to give you what he has.

First, pick up socks and things you don't want him to have. Set up several short sessions for practice. Get a toy or some other mediocre valued item, not a highly prized item and give it to him, saying, "take." Sit down in front of him. You can even put a leash on him if you want, but try not to have to use it. Have some delicious treats in a bag in your pocket, like steak, chicken, pot roast or white cheese....tiny pieces. Hold one in front of him so he sees it but don't give it to him yet. When he drops the toy into your hand which is held under his chin, say, "give" and then give him the treat with your other hand. Praise and make it like a party. This is a game, the give and take game.

Do it again. Vary the toys that he has and your location. You can progress to tossing the toy a few feet away and you can progress to not having the leash on him. When he starts getting onto this and is not showing a glare or growl but willingly dropping the toy into your hand for the treat, you can stop showing him the treat first. Keep it in your pocket or on a table. Put your hand out and say, "give." Immediately give him a treat and lots of happy praise.

Practice this game often and vary the items, very, very gradually, over weeks, increasing the value of his toys or possessions. Always make certain that what you have for him is better than what you want to take from him. Later, way down the road, you'll start putting this on a variable reward schedule, where you won't have to give him something every single time, but you will still trade him quite frequently.

And even though he is getting better with the jumping if I am on the couch and he starts jumping up he will not listen when I say down. He will get down but then the one paw comes up on the couch.

Again, it's not about him not listening. It's about training him. It's about making it work for him to stay off the couch. Make it better for him to stay off the couch than to get back on. He wants to be up there with you. Make it better to stay on his dog bed or rug. Be consistant and don't let him get reinforced BY getting on the couch in the first place. Find out what he loves and use it to your advantage.

PS, I have tried waving the bitter apple spray when he jumps but it just gets him very angry, it worked in class when he was biting me (the trainer had me spray it on my arms) and it works to keep him from chewing on things but to stop a behavior he gets mad.

Don't attack your dog with spraying things at him. He doesn't understand. If he's jumping up uncontrollably and getting wild, perhaps he needs more hard exercise. I'll tell you what. When you attend to your dog in any way (unless it's extremely harsh) while he is doing an unacceptable behavior, such as jumping and mouthing, you are reinforcing that behavior. Ask yourself why is he doing this behavior. If it is for attention, do not give him attention. Turn your back on him and ignore him if he is jumping up. The instant all fours hit the floor, reinforce that with a high value treat and CALM praise. If you'd like him to sit for a pat, then wait until he sits before you reinforce. He will eventually sit.

For mouthing, give him plenty of suitable chew toys and ignore or remove him from being sociable if he doesn't stop biting hard. If he bites or mouths ever so gently, let him. This teaches him to regulate the strength of his bite....very important. If he's biting hard to get your attention, again, turn away and don't give him ANY and I mean ANY attention, not one word, not a look or a touch. Walk away or calmly put him away for a minute or two.

And in puppy class if he got excited seeing another dog in the class and wanted to go over he would not listen at all and would actually bite me. He had me ready to leave pupply class early one night and I had to hold back tears while the trainer interveined. I want to sign him up for the next class but am afraid I won't be able to handle him. I feel like I am doing everything I can to be dominant but I know I must not be. How can I do more when I don't know what more is?

Again, he is being a dog. He is not a human in fur. He doesn't understand human morals and our value system. He naturally wants to go see a member of his own species. Until he is TAUGHT our kind of manners, he will act this way. Dominance by you is not going to teach him anything. The best you can do with that and all the rest of Cesar Milan's nonsense is to supress behavior. He is a puppy and it takes time to learn human ways of living.

Personally, if you were made to feel that you had to leave class....that combined with the advice to spray bitter apple at your dog tells me that you do not have the best trainer.

How old is your puppy and what breed? You need to get him around other pups so he can learn how to act with them. Avoiding it will make it worse. But a controlled situation is what you need. Your puppy is not abnormal. He is simply acting like a puppy who hasn't been trained yet. He's an animal remember, not a human and does not have the same abilities as we do to understand in depth or to grasp concepts. When dogs behave the way we like, it is not because they understand all about why it's important to us or why they're doing this or that. It is because they have been reinforced for it enough times that it works for them. Period.

Get your pup into another class if you can. If not, tell your trainer you will not be spraying things at your dog. Keep your dog at a distance where he is not barking and lunging and reinforce him for it with a very tasty treat. When he begins the barking and lunging, turn him away and take a walk. Come back to a distance where he can be calm, no closer and reinforce him immediately if he is relatively calm. It takes time.

We'll get you through this. Hang in there and keep posting.

[Doberluv]

Just a thought on assertiveness: Being assertive helps US to be consistant, to be decisive. But I don't believe it is the assertiveness in and of itself which makes a dog repeat a wanted behavior. It is reinforcement, a payoff which makes a dog, any mammal repeat a behavior. Assertiveness or intimidation also will stop an unwanted behavior momentarily, but it is not the core factor in the learning process. Assertiveness is an attitude and some people have it and some don't. What is more to the point is to show the dog what you DO want in a way he can understand and reinforce that with something he values or needs. Control that which he needs and his environment and use it to your advantage. Trying to rely on dominance or assertiveness to teach a dog something is a struggle and it's not a specific communication to a dog. Learn how dogs learn. Learn how to train your dog with good timing, motivation and reward, giving alternatives, distracting from unwanted behavior etc.....and you'll have it made.

[mantine]

Wow...thanks for all the advice!

How old is Grizzley? Is he neutered?

He is almost 5 months, one more week, he is not neutered yet, my vet won't do that until he is 6 months old.

What commands does your dog know? Does he know sit / stays, or leave it? Is down you command for lie down, or is down the command for get off?

He just finished a puppy training class so he knows drop it, leave it, come, sit, sit-stay, shake, down (to lie down, not get off something), roll over, just the basics.

I would start with: crating, having set meal times, and strict NILIF.

What does NILIF stand for? I woring on crate training him. I feed him in there sometimes and he will sleep in there but does not like to be locked in. It is in the living room.

What kind of dog is he and how old?

He is an Austrailan Shepherd, just under 5 months. I know there are high energy dogs, but I keep him busy with walks, hikes and fetch.

He wants to eat, he has to perform commands for at least the first half of the meal (sit, down, stand, etc, whatever he knows). He wants to go outside, he has to sit and wait patiently (this is probably going to require the use of a leash) until you let him loose.

From the first day we got him we made him sit and wait for his food bowl before it touched the ground so now he does that automatically, should I make him do more befor feeding him? As for going outside we usually just open the door. We have 2.5 acres for him to run around on so we never thought to leash him. I will start making him wait until I say it is ok to go out.

If you simply must have whatever he is carrying, purposefully walk after him but don't run. If he runs, you just walk behind him

So walking after him even though he is running away isn't considered chasing him. I would have thought as long as I was following him I would be chasing him cause he is running away. I have tried trading him his favorite toy but he is not interested in trading when he has an item he knows he is not supposed to have, I will try trading for treats.

Get a toy or some other mediocre valued item, not a highly prized item and give it to him, saying, "take." Sit down in front of him. You can even put a leash on him if you want, but try not to have to use it. Have some delicious treats in a bag in your pocket, like steak, chicken, pot roast or white cheese....tiny pieces. Hold one in front of him so he sees it but don't give it to him yet. When he drops the toy into your hand which is held under his chin, say, "give" and then give him the treat with your other hand. Praise and make it like a party. This is a game, the give and take game.

He has no problem giving me his toys, its only the items I feel he knows he shouldnt have, the sock, the tissue that fell out of the garbage the we didn't notice, my scrunchee that fell off the dresser, my shoes (not my husbands) and his bed (he likes to be extra friendly with it). I will practice with him more on giving me his toys, I don't do that everyday.

I try to keep treats on me at all times, they work sooo well, it even helped me to get him to stop attacking the vaccuum cleaner. I definitley want to use positive reinforcement with him beacuse I know the negative won't work, I have tried it and failed.

Don't attack your dog with spraying things at him

I wasn't spraying it, I was just waving the bottle in front of his nose so he would get the scent of it and associate that with the jumping. It probably wasn't the greatest trainer, it was a petsmart class. If I continue with training classes would you reccomend going elsewhere?

For mouthing, give him plenty of suitable chew toys and ignore or remove him from being sociable if he doesn't stop biting hard. If he bites or mouths ever so gently, let him. This teaches him to regulate the strength of his bite....very important. If he's biting hard to get your attention, again, turn away and don't give him ANY and I mean ANY attention, not one word, not a look or a touch. Walk away or calmly put him away for a minute or two.

I am glad you said that because now that he is getting his adult teeth the mouthing doesnt hurt and I had wondered if it was ok to let them do that as long as he it nor hurting me. Qucik question..a lot of times when we play I will sit on the floor and he will get a toy and sit in my lap (35-40 pounds of puppy) I don't mind him doing this, a lot of times its with his ball, I'll throw it, he'll go get it and bring back and sit in my lap and drop it and so on. Is this a bad thing to do?


Personally, if you were made to feel that you had to leave class....that combined with the advice to spray bitter apple at your dog tells me that you do not have the best trainer.

The trainer didn't make me feel like I needed to leave class, Grizzley did, I felt like I was disturbing the rest of the class by staying, and again the trainer did not advise to spray the bitter apple at him, just wave it in front of his nose so he could smell it.

You need to get him around other pups so he can learn how to act with them.

He was with 4 other puppies in the puppy class.

Get your pup into another class if you can. If not, tell your trainer you will not be spraying things at your dog. Keep your dog at a distance where he is not barking and lunging and reinforce him for it with a very tasty treat. When he begins the barking and lunging, turn him away and take a walk. Come back to a distance where he can be calm, no closer and reinforce him immediately if he is relatively calm. It takes time.

At petsmart they have you in a small circle for the training, so the last class when he started acting up I took him out of the circle and we watched from a distance. It worked a little better and I had beeb giving him treats thru out the entire class when he would sit-stay and be calm.

[Charliesmommy]

NLIF is Nothing in Life is Free. This means the dog has to DO something in order to get what he wants. He wants a treat? He must sit for it, etc. See this: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

[mantine]

Here is a pic of the little troublemaker:

http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x310/chrispax2007/?action=view&current=grizz1-1.jpg

[BlackPuppy]

He has no problem giving me his toys, its only the items I feel he knows he shouldnt have,

I think he's too young to KNOW he shouldn't take something.

Qucik question..a lot of times when we play I will sit on the floor and he will get a toy and sit in my lap (35-40 pounds of puppy) I don't mind him doing this, a lot of times its with his ball, I'll throw it, he'll go get it and bring back and sit in my lap and drop it and so on. Is this a bad thing to do?

Depends :) Do you want him sitting on your lap when he's full grown? If not, redirect this also. Since, he's bringing back the ball, maybe you can use that to lure him off your lap.

[otch1]

Hello Mantine! You have your work cut out for you, for the next 6 months! I promise, it does get better. Lol. This is the age, 6 to 12 months, that a lot of herding breed owners have a tough time. Your dog is going through a lot of changes at this age, hormonal, teething, a growth spurt for most dogs, ect. Herding breeds instinctively use their mouth to play. A lot of mouthing, nipping, herding and some snapping to protest or communicate what they want. It's important during this stage that you be very patient and do a lot of training. You need to move onto a basic obedience class, after having finished your puppy class. No break. I don't recommend Petsmart for this dog. I get a lot of students from our local Petsmart that come to me, for the very reason you stated, their training environment is not ideal. Their floors are slick, training space is often a 15 x15 cordoned off area with chairs in it. Dogs are too close together and the distraction level is too high for a lot of beginning obedience dogs and owners. Often, they have very inexperienced trainers whose only schooling in actual dog training is through Petsmart and reading their manuals. This means they're very limited on addressing any serious behavioral issues. You should be able to find a good trainer in your area, observe her/his training and then sign up for a private or two before enrolling in the group class. If you were one of my students, I would see you first then put you in group, as this really sounds like a confidence issue for you. Almost being in tears during a class can make you feel very discouraged and hesitant to want to train the dog, when it is you that needs to handle the dog the most right now. Just need a good trainer to get you through this stage, one that will show you how to properly use training equipment, help you with your timing and show you how to create a "soft mouth" on this dog. (One that never applies pressure when skin/hands are near the mouth.) Also, one that shows you how to create a bond with your dog through training exercises, while soliciting more respectful behavior from him. It can be done. Get out your yellow pages, talk to a dog owner at a park with a particularly well behaved dog, ask a neighbor... then leave your dog at home so you can watch without distraction and go observe a class!!

[BlackPuppy]

What a cutie. I think all these little herding puppies are trouble makers. Heck, lets just say all puppies and be done with it.

Is that one eye half blue??

[otch1]

Just saw Grizzlys' picture, mantine. What a cutie! Let's hope appropriate training now, keeps him from living up to his name, in the future! Ha.

[Zoom]

Running vs. walking does make a difference. Running is high energy, fun. Walking is sedate, boring.

He is very cute!! Is he full Aussie...maybe it's just his coloring but he almost looks like he has some rough Collie in him as well. Very interesting coloring for an Aussie.

And Aussies are living TERRORS as puppies. If you go look at Aussie Rescue, you'll find many, many dogs that are between 5 and 12 months old, then a whole group more at 16-18 months. I had enough "fun" with mine and he was 18 months old when I rescued him.

It does get better!!! You just have to be firm, consistant, PATIENT PATIENT PATIENT and know that you're not alone! You also have a very smart dog, which almost makes it harder.

[mantine]

yea, his one eye is half blue and he is supposed to be a full blooded aussie. Alot of people have commented on his coloring and some people have though he was a sheltie. His coat has been changing colors in the past month with his adult coat coming in.

[Jynx]

I posted some suggestions in your other thread, but here goes, (and oh my god he is soooooooo cute, he looks like a devil !! LOL)

I agree with all that's said, and with that being said, the biggest thing I think is find another trainer,,CONTINUE with your training but look for a training facility/trainer other than petsmart/petco.

My aussies were a new breed for me, having had GSD's "forever",,The gsd's I have/had all were very strong willed/determined and while they were much easier (in my opinion) to train than my aussies, they also were a "harder" dog in t hat, they seem to "get it" faster than the aussies? (I know i'm not explainign this right ....)

Grizz is still very much a puppy and will be probably most of his life (did I mention aussies never grow up?) I agree, he doesn't realize what he is doing isn't acceptable, he's just have FUN, and that's all aussies wanna do is have fun *vbg*..

I think you've gotten some good advice and suggestions, and my biggest one is to find a good trainer in your area that can train YOU as well as the dog, something other than petco/petsmart..

Good luck
diane

[Zoom]

RedyreRottweilers might be able to give you a couple of recommendations, I don't know if you're in the same part of the state or not though.

I'll be very interested to see what his adult coat comes in at!

[IliamnasQuest]

Hey, your first mistake was in naming him GRIZZLY! Don't you know dogs live up to their names??

Just kidding, of course! :p

I think dogs benefit from a good leadership and that's our job as owners. It's what allows me to live with multiple females at the same time even when bringing strange dogs into the household during training or fostering. I supply a strong leadership and they respond accordingly. There are varying views of the "pack" theory, but I have no doubt that dogs do find their spot within the group (dogs/humans/other animals in the house) and they are happiest when they are secure in knowing what's acceptable and what isn't.

Leadership doesn't have to be harsh, but it does have to be consistent. I have a set of "rules" that help people develop consistency and help dogs understand what's allowed. The rules are not absolute - not every dog needs to have every rule - but it gives you an idea of what to do. You can find those at www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html (go to "pack hierarchy").

By the way, puppies learn very quickly how to get a reaction from their humans. When he grabs a sock, he knows you'll chase him and EVERY time that happens you're reinforcing him for grabbing the sock. The chase is a great game! I'm sure he loves it. So you're really teaching him exactly what you don't want to teach him. The best thing to do is to find a way to keep all things out of his reach that you don't want him to grab. And if he grabs a sock, then you ignore that. Instead of chasing him, go off somewhere else and find something really interesting to do .. like suddenly race off after his toys and start throwing one in the air, laughing and having a good time. Or maybe you run into the kitchen and grab a hot dog out of the fridge and start munching on it, making lots of "mmmmm!!" noises .. *L* .. what you want is to have him drop what he's doing and come see what YOU'RE doing instead. And then you can play with him and reward him for coming to you instead of teaching him to run from you with the sock.

Grizzly is a puppy and will do puppy things for a long time. Expect him not to settle mentally until he's at least two. Lots of exercise will be imperative. Fetch is great, but don't let him jump until he's well over a year old or you risk injury to his legs (growth plates take awhile to close completely). When he's an adult, he'll probably be a great frisbee dog - mine was! SO athletic and SO smart too. Oh - and mine had the half-blue eyes too!

Good luck and keep in mind that he's just a baby yet!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[mantine]

Well I started the trade game with him yesterday and I guess he wasn't as good as giving up his toys as I thought he was, so I got the treats out and his attention shifted very quickly from the toy to dropping it for a treat. He even had his bed out yesterday, getting friendly again and I said trade and showed him the treat and he dropped it right away.

Now should he see the treat when I say drop or should he drop it with out knowing a treat is coming and then I give him the treat?

When we were renting ahouse a couple months ago my neighbor was a dog trainer so I am going to give him a call today.

Lots of exercise will be imperative. Fetch is great, but don't let him jump until he's well over a year old or you risk injury to his legs (growth plates take awhile to close completely). When he's an adult, he'll probably be a great frisbee dog - mine was! SO athletic and SO smart too. Oh - and mine had the half-blue eyes too!

He loves the frisbee also. He is getting close at catching it now too. I have been trying to throw it low and straight but I have bad aim :lol-sign: , I gues we both need practice.!

Thank you guys so much for all the advice. I plan on printing everything out and reading over it again. I want him to want to be a well behaved dog and I want to do it the right way. He is a fast learner, he learned all his commands that he knows now with in an hour, I was very shocked. I'm ready to put that intelligence to work!

Thanks for the link IliamnasQuest, I will check it out later today.

[Zoom]

To start with he can know that you have a treat and that he's pretty darn certain that it's coming. As he gets more and more reliable with dropping things on the command, start waiting a second or two before treating. Then start varying the times he gets the treat. Say you do a sequence of five...he gets a treat for the first, third and fifth times. Then the next time, the second and fourth. Then the first and fifth times only. Then just second...change it up and keep him guessing.

[Doberluv]

Brace yourself for a painfully long reply which veers off the immediate concerns, but which I thought might help nevertheless:

He just finished a puppy training class so he knows drop it, leave it, come, sit, sit-stay, shake, down (to lie down, not get off something), roll over, just the basics.

This is a great start. But try to think of things this way: When a dog appears to know drop it, sit, stay, shake etc, and then here and there, he doesn't do it, we must resist the temptation to think he's being stubborn since he "knows" it....as if he's just refusing to do it. Keep reminding yourself that reinforcement (something in it for him) has to have happened a lot more times and for a lot longer than one might think. Knowing how to do something or not knowing how isn't the whole picture. There has to have been an ample history of reinforcement. There has to have been a sufficient amount of practice in all kinds of distractions and contexts. Dogs don't generalize well. So, if in Petsmart your dog "knows" sit, shake, come, stay and then doesn't some other time, he is not willfully being "disobedient." He is simply following his instinct to go toward (with his attention or physically) the thing that works better for him. Like if he were a dog living out in the forest, he'd have to chase after that rabbit if he wanted to eat. Or he'd have to run from a predator if he wanted to survive. He'd have to listen intently to the rustle of leaves in case something was sneaking up on him. So, these drives and instincts are still in our dogs even though they are also very geared and wired to live with humans. It's just the way they are. People tend to expect too much from their dogs and expect them to have the same culture as we do. They don't. They are amazing in how they are capable of learning anything from us. LOL. (when you really think about it) I'm sorry for such long explanations. But I think it's important to understand dogs more so we don't tend to get as frustrated.

Nothing in life is free means that you control the dog's resources and he learns that in order to get the things he wants and needs, he must earn them. This produces a well mannered dog. However, unless you're having a great deal of trouble with aggession or something, I personally wouldn't carry this to the extreme in a young pup. I think it can cause stress if they have to earn every single little thing. I prefer the "some things in life are free" concept. I agree with having your dog wait while you set his bowl down and wait until released to go out the door. Those are basic, good manners.

How I taught my dogs not to rush the door was to not really use any verbal cue, a leash or any physical control at all. It is an automatic behavior your dog can learn easily. I opened the door part way and when the dog rushed to get out, I closed it before he got there. I repeated it several times. (you can also just put your hand on the door knob and wait for a sit) Then give your release word.) When I closed the door, my dog looked like.....Huh? When dogs feel like "huh?" and wonder what the heck....they usually sit because that's probably the first thing they learned and have been reinforced for many times. They try to do something that will work during this guessing stage. Sitting has always worked well. LOL.

Tell him in a low key voice, "gooood." And give your release word immediately before he gets up, "Ok" (or whatever release word you use) Open the door and let him go. If he tries to bolt before you give your release word, close the door fast. He will learn this short chain of behaviors; sit, wait for release word quickly if you're consistant. So, the order is: hand on door knob or open it part way if you dare, but be ready to close before he bolts....wait for him to sit. Don't tell him to sit. Just wait and wait and he'll sit eventually. If he doesn't after you wait as long as you can stand it, go ahead and tell him "sit." You can fade it later. But give him a good chance to try. (a quiet) "Goooood." Release word, reward. (going outside) It's nice to be able to open the door and not have your dog bolt out without permission and in some instances can save a dog's life.

Back to the NILIF. Choose the things which are important to you. Have him earn lots of his things. But, some people won't give their dog one pat or one kind word without them sitting first or performing something. I think that is too extreme. That's just my opinon. It's not natural to not be friendly and loving to our dogs freely. However, if your dog is pushy and demanding attention and becoming a pest, there is NO good reason to respond to that. In that case, I would ignore that and reward when he is behaving nicely. It's just not cut and dry, in other words. I give my dogs toys without their having to do anything. I give them all kinds of gushing attention and they don't have to do anything in particular. But I don't have any behavior problems to speak of. Lyric, at one time was bugging me by resting his chin on my forearm while I was trying to type. He'd press down. I didn't like that. He was getting "pushy." He wanted me to pay attention to him. If I answered his every whim, I'd have trouble. So, I swiveled my chair so my back was turned and said nothing. I did that several times when he tried until he found that it didn't do anything for him. It didn't work. When he went and lay down next to me, I right away turned and gave him some attention. He has learned which way works to get him what he wants.

So walking after him even though he is running away isn't considered chasing him. I would have thought as long as I was following him I would be chasing him cause he is running away. I have tried trading him his favorite toy but he is not interested in trading when he has an item he knows he is not supposed to have, I will try trading for treats.

Personally, I wouldn't even walk after my dog unless he had something which was an emergency. That walking toward him can become the cue that you are going to take something from him. It will become a thing where you always have to walk after him to take something. And his cue to keep up the game of avoiding you.

cont. next post. lol.

[Doberluv]

I'd much rather practice the give and take game, first with things he's good at giving up, just so he gets going on the game. And then work up to higher valued items. I forgot when I was describing the give and take game to tell you to not only give him a tasty reward, better than what you're taking from him, but also, give him back what you just took from him. Teach him that he'll get it back if he gives it to you. Do it back and forth. Make it a fun game. Later, you can stop giving him back the item every time. But do it this way for quite some time. When you give him the thing he values a lot, when you've gotten to that stage where he is fine with giving you the previous level of value, call him to you and trade him. Give it back, trade him again. Teach him to come to you to give you things.

Here is the toss up: You can practice with the things he loves but you don't want him to have, like socks, kleenex etc. But he will continue to think they're toys for him. On the other hand, he will learn to give you things no matter what they are when you ask. I think, once he has it firmly trained in to give you things when asked, whether it's a sock, a kleenex, a trinket you value, you can then move onto teaching him that they are not toys by not letting him get hold of them in the first place, by not letting him continue to play with them if he does get hold of them, by replacing them with toys or a chew toy he likes or a peanut butter stuffed Kong toy. Read the sticky about the toy box by Redyre...It's good. Personally, I'd rather practice (when he's ready) with things he highly values which are not my valued things, but things he can have. You say he has no toys that he minds you taking from him. That is why I came up with that off the wall idea to practice with the things he does value, even though they're not things you want him to have. So, that is sort of contradictory advice. It's best for him to learn from the get go which types of things are not for him. It's a hard call. But he does need to learn to "give" regardless of what the item is so that calls for practicing with many different things.
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[QUOTE]Now should he see the treat when I say drop or should he drop it with out knowing a treat is coming and then I give him the treat?

At first, as I think I described in my other reply, if he is reluctant, frozen looking, glaring, show him the treat first. When he gets onto the game in is very willing when you take hold of the item in his mouth, you can begin to hide the treats in your pocket and instead of giving him the treat almost simultaneously while taking the toy, you can take the toy and then give the treat. Don't wait more than 1 or 2 seconds. See? What is happening is you're making it safer, less risk of being bitten by showing him the treat at first. Then he becomes more conditioned to your taking things because he is getting a treat AND getting the item back right away. Back and forth. He's getting onto the fun. At this time you can begin to reward right AFTER he complies instead of bribing him by showing him first. You want to fade that bribing as soon as he is comfortable with giving. That mustn't become a permenant cue.

In addition, I wouldn't ever fade out trading something when you take something from him. You will get to the point where you don't have to every time, but don't stop it all together. You don't want to make him feel defensive about his stuff...ever.

I am glad you said that because now that he is getting his adult teeth the mouthing doesnt hurt and I had wondered if it was ok to let them do that as long as he it nor hurting me.

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

Qucik question..a lot of times when we play I will sit on the floor and he will get a toy and sit in my lap (35-40 pounds of puppy) I don't mind him doing this, a lot of times its with his ball, I'll throw it, he'll go get it and bring back and sit in my lap and drop it and so on. Is this a bad thing to do?

It's not a bad thing if you don't mind. Keep in mind, he'll probably get heavier and you may not think it's so cute when he's older. And a guest might not think it's cute. You could have him just bring it and hold out your hand, while bending forward a bit and throw it for him again. You can untrain him to jump on your lap by moving and/or ignoring that. No throwing the ball. It's really up to you.


Quote:
Personally, if you were made to feel that you had to leave class....that combined with the advice to spray bitter apple at your dog tells me that you do not have the best trainer.

The trainer didn't make me feel like I needed to leave class, Grizzley did, I felt like I was disturbing the rest of the class by staying, and again the trainer did not advise to spray the bitter apple at him, just wave it in front of his nose so he could smell it.

Ah-ha....I see. It's not a horrible thing, the spray bottle, but it's still relying on a threat or mild intimidation. It isn't going to hurt him much. That's not the point though. It's a question if you want to train with avoidance in your dog's mind as your mainstay or earning reward for his motivation. Motivation toward repeating behaviors which work.....or motivation to avoid a bad thing happening for behaviors you don't want. Behavior that has no payoff will extinguish. Behaviors that are reinforced with something the dog loves will be repeated. You can utilize other tactics for preventing him from unwanted behaviors and steering him into the ones you do want. There are ways which you can learn.

[mantine]

This is a great start. But try to think of things this way: When a dog appears to know drop it, sit, stay, shake etc, and then here and there, he doesn't do it, we must resist the temptation to think he's being stubborn since he "knows" it....as if he's just refusing to do it. Keep reminding yourself that reinforcement (something in it for him) has to have happened a lot more times and for a lot longer than one might think.

I am glad you said that because it does sometimes seem like he is ignoring me, I do have to step back and remeber he is still a puppy and has only been in training for 2 months. And my husband has a problem with training with treats, more like trading a "bad" item for a treat or if he is jumping up on the couch and we tell him down and he gets down my husband doesn't want to praise him right away or give treat becuase he feels that the reason the dog is jumping or taking the sock is because he knows we are going to give him a treat or praise to get the sock away or get him off the couch. Any ideas on how to explain that his is not true?

Here is the toss up: You can practice with the things he loves but you don't want him to have, like socks, kleenex etc. But he will continue to think they're toys for him. On the other hand, he will learn to give you things no matter what they are when you ask.

I was doing this at first when I was teaching him leave it, i would put my scrunchee or a sock infront of him and tell him to leave it.

Ah-ha....I see. It's not a horrible thing, the spray bottle, but it's still relying on a threat or mild intimidation. It isn't going to hurt him much. That's not the point though. It's a question if you want to train with avoidance in your dog's mind as your mainstay or earning reward for his motivation. Motivation toward repeating behaviors which work.....or motivation to avoid a bad thing happening for behaviors you don't want. Behavior that has no payoff will extinguish. Behaviors that are reinforced with something the dog loves will be repeated. You can utilize other tactics for preventing him from unwanted behaviors and steering him into the ones you do want. There are ways which you can learn.

Good point!

I wanted to change the subject back to Grizzley's coat/coloring...it is pretty neat if you take another look and some it you can't see in the picture but his whole body is opposite. He has the split face with the black on the right (his right) and spots on the left. Then under his chin he has spots on the right and a black patch on the left. Then you can see uder his neck he has a little black on the right and white on the left and then above his left paw its black but white on the right. Then his body is getting black spots on the right side and his left side has just all black coming in under the tan color. Just thought it was kinda neat. Anyone know if that is common in the aussie breed?

[Doberluv]

And my husband has a problem with training with treats, more like trading a "bad" item for a treat or if he is jumping up on the couch and we tell him down and he gets down my husband doesn't want to praise him right away or give treat becuase he feels that the reason the dog is jumping or taking the sock is because he knows we are going to give him a treat or praise to get the sock away or get him off the couch. Any ideas on how to explain that his is not true?

Taking something from a dog that he values highly can cause resource guarding, as you've experienced. It can become dangerous. Dogs or wolves in the wild, no matter where on the hierarchy they are, once they have an item in their possession, it's theirs. It is perfectly acceptable in dog culture to warn or bite anyone who tries to take their food or bone. It doesn't matter if it's the alpha. It's not very usual for another wolf or dog to steal something from another, but if it does happen, you can bet the one who is in possession is going to object, otherwise he'd starve, would be unable to reproduce and the species would go extinct. They have their ways.

Now, here we humans come along and want to take something the dog values. A lot of people think that since they are the owner, that they should be dominant and take the possession away just because they think they're so "high" on the social ladder. This is a false perception. People get bitten with that attitude and dogs get euthanized because the growling and biting, caused by defensiveness escalates.

This is why most professional trainers with Phds in applied behavior recommend trading a higher value item for what you are taking away from the dog and during practice, or conditioning....giving back the item that you take so that the dog trusts you that nothing bad is going to happen when he loses his stuff and that, in fact, it's even better when you do take something from him. This is one of those human culture things that we need to artificially train into our dogs.

The best way to avoid the stealing of unwanted items is to prevent him from getting them in the first place. Once he gets hold of your scrunchie or a shoe, he is reinforced because it's fun. Reinforcement causes behavior to be repeated. The dog is "trained" to take those things. "Leave it" is good. But better yet, keep things away from puppy. Eventually, as he is reinforced for enjoying his own toys, chewing those will become the norm. Chewing your stuff will fade because he's never reinforced for it. As he matures, he will steal things less and less. But you need to prevent, use leave it when needed and make sure your dog will come to you and "drop" and/or "give" when you ask for something.

I recommend you use the word, "off" for getting off the couch rather than "down" as "down" is normally used for lying down. You don't want to mix him up.

Praise, treats or punishment has to happen within 1-3 seconds of the behavior occuring or the dog is onto something else and that is what you'll be reinforcing. So, when he gets off the couch when asked, if you or your husband do not praise him for that act immediately, but wait until he's walking across the living room, you will be reinforcing his walking across the living room, not getting off the couch when asked. The best way, again.....is to prevent him from getting on the couch in the first place. At his very first intention, when you see his muscles contract like he's about to jump up, intercept him calmly and immediately show him where he can lie....perhaps a dog bed on the floor. Praise and treat him when he lies down there. Make a fuss over him. Be very consistant.

Going back to the idea that he is being rewarded for taking the scrunchie because he gets a treat for taking it and giving it to you.....it can happen that dogs learn what's called a chain of behaviors. Go get the scrunchie and give equals treat. However, it's imperative that the dog trusts you to take things away and I think that supercedes anything. You can work even more on leave it and replacing it with his own toy. You can keep these things put away so he can not get them. As he matures, he will stop taking most things that belong to you. He'll develop a sense about it. I don't know what it is, but dogs just seem to do that as they develop, as long as they can't have the opportunity to keep on stealing things.

Another little exercise I know of is putting six items spread out in the yard or living room and put your pup on a leash. Three of the things will be his toys, bones whatever and three will be your belongings. You meander through these things and when he shows interest in one of your things, tell him leave it and keep walking. Don't let him grab it. If he does by accident, praise him while you take it, but no treat. Try to prevent it. When he walks by without sniffing it, treat him with a high value treat and praise. When he shows interest in his toy or bone, let him get it and give a cue if you like, say...."get it" while he's getting it. Let him play with it for a moment. Repeat a few times a day. Each day, vary the items and try in different locations. I have found this to help develop a sense about what is meant for puppy and what is not. It must be the scent of things which clues them in.

You can put foil or cardboard boxers on the couch if you can't be watching him closely, although a puppy should be supervised constantly or put in his crate. That's the best way to prevent mayhem. LOL. Prevention of behavior problems is always better than trying to tackle them once they become ingrained.

I still haven't looked at your puppy's picture....will do that now. He sounds very unusual and very cool!

[Dekka]

:hail: excellent post doberluv, eloquently done.

[Doberluv]

Why, thank you Dekka. That's very nice to say.

Ok...I just went back and looked at his picture. He is really unique looking! That one eye which is half blue/half black is really interesting as is his coloring all over. He's adorable too....such a sweet expression on his face. He's going to grow into a great dog!

[Zoom]

Grizzly might be a sable merle. Not allowed in registery, but still a common enough color.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/sable_aussies.htm

[IliamnasQuest]

You can put foil or cardboard boxers on the couch if you can't be watching him closely

I just have to imagine that cardboard boxers are DARN uncomfortable!

*ROTFL*

Just gotta love typos!

Melanie and the gang

[Doberluv]

OMG!!! Yes....do away with your cardboard boxers. They make a great dog deterrent. It's too late to edit that now....LOL!

[mantine]

Hey Zoom...thanks. I have been searching since I got him to figure out what he was. He kinda looked like a red merle but he is much more tan then red, I think the Sable Merle fits him perfect!:hail: