So what’s with obedience training?

[dandandat]

So you hear it all the time, that it’s a good idea to take your dog to obedience training. But my question is, what will this training do for my Sammy that she doesn’t already do?

Sammy is a 16 month old Female Basset that has never been to an obedience class.

She knows how to sit on command, she walks nicely on her leash, while I have never taught her to heal she does understand “come here”, or “go over there” or other location commands that are good for us. She knows how to fetch and her sent related games.

It took as a while to get her reliably house broken, but once I taught her a scratched door seldom remains closed, it turned out her biggest problem was that we weren’t picking up on her silent clues.

She is defiantly not on of those dogs you see at agility tests on TV, but I doubt an obedience class will turn her into that, or that I would even want to work at it enough to get to that point.

If I had to pick two obedience related problems Sammy has, is one) she is stubborn but I have read every where that Bassets are notorious for being stubborn even with obedience classes. And two) she jumps up on us and others, which is our own fault because he aren’t consistent in correcting her, many times its just cute since she is a small dog.

So I guess my question is what do they do at formal obedience classes that I can’t do at home. Keeping in mind I don’t really need a supper obedient show dog but just one to be part of the family.

[Sweet72947]

The one thing I think obedience classes are really good for is socialization. Your dog can learn to obey your commands around other dogs/people. But if you can do that at home, that's cool too.

[dandandat]

Sammy gets to be with a lot of people, as for dogs she sees two others on a regular bases:

A Cocker Spaniel who use to be my dog until I moved out of my parents home when I was married, we thought it best to leave her there as it was her home. Her name is Molly and she is also a obedient dog. I’d say she is more obedient then Sammy because she doesn’t have the stubborn side Sammy does. They get along well, except for the fact that Molly is older and doesn’t want to keep up with Sammy’s puppy energy some times.

The tables are turned however when Sammy is with Peanut, my Aunts dog. Its what looks like a toy Doberman, but I don’t think that’s the correct bread. Since it’s a toy sized dog it has a lot more energy then my lumbering Sammy. Peanut is not obedient at all, makes me wonder if they forgot to put a proper brain in that small dog or if my aunt is just bad at keeping her dog in line (its probably the latter).

She also gets to play with cats/kittens from time tot time. Strays that have made grandparents shed their home. The cats have gotten use to the dogs sniffing around and some times participate in some good old fashion chases.

[Sweet72947]

Seems like you have all your bases covered. Obedience classes are probably good for novice owners who don't have as many opportunities for socialization and things, and to help them learn HOW to train as well as WHAT to train.:)

[Dekka]

Its a good idea for 95% of people and dogs, but you may fall in that 5% that is just fine without. That isn't to say you and your dog wouldn't have a blast trying something like a tricks class, basic agility, or rally O. Many people take a class, just for the ejoyment of doing something fun with their dog. (kinda like couple who take a ball room dance class together, its not that they need it, but that is fun to do together)

[DanL]

I always felt like OB classes, especially beginner ones, are more for the handler than they are for the dog. They teach you how to read your dog's body language, how to perform basic tasks with consistency, and give the dog a great socialization outlet. Not everyone needs it. I like taking Gunnar because it gives him interaction with other dogs that he would not get at home. When you start working more advanced things like off leash, it helps to have an instructor to give you feedback on what you are doing right and wrong.

[Mayasmydobe]

sounds like you and your dog are okay without the class


and by the way, the "miniture doberman" would be a Miniture Pinscher. Not related to the Doberman Pinscher at all :)

[adojrts]

. And two) she jumps up on us and others, which is our own fault because he aren’t consistent in correcting her, many times its just cute since she is a small dog.

.


Why would you correct her for a learned behaviour?? When a dog jumps up on anybody, especially a dog raised in a home, its not the dogs fault. So correcting her isn't fair.

[noludoru]

And to add to Adojrts... Bassets are NOT small dogs, they are large dogs eith small legs. Compare your pup's body size with a lab or something, and then compare her body size to a Chihuahua. Big difference, yes?

[Psyfalcon]

Why would you correct her for a learned behaviour?? When a dog jumps up on anybody, especially a dog raised in a home, its not the dogs fault. So correcting her isn't fair.

What definition of "correcting" we're using here? If the dog jumps, even as a small puppy, isn't just calmly saying no, and placing it back on the floor correcting?

[Doberluv]

It's far more effective to not reinforce jumping by speaking to or looking at or touching, pushing the dog off.....any attention at all. It's far more effective to ignore that attention seeking behavior and praise/treat when the dog stays on all fours or sits. Consistancy and good timing with rewarding the wanted behavior and ignoring behavior which is an attempt to seek attention will teach the dog much better and in a way he understands. Calmly saying "no" and touching the dog are nothing but reinforcing or rewarding the jumping up and makes it much more difficult for the pup to understand and learn.

I agree with the others about classes. I never took my past dogs to classes and they learned everything just fine. They are indeed great for people who need help with training advice and great socialization. And they're good practice for the dog to learn to do things in distractions. Plus, they're a lot of fun. But if you've got all your bases covered and are satisfied with what you have with your dog, there's no reason to go to a class.

PS..I don't believe hounds are more "stubborn" for one minute. They simply have different things which motivate them...things in their environment. And a little more of a challenge because of it. It is just the way they are. Steps have to be taken to counteract some of that....setting up the environment so the dog can learn better, working with a somewhat hungrier dog, using a higher value motivator or an unusual one that you might not have thought of....lots of things. Dog behavior has nothing to do with our values or morality.

[adojrts]

It's far more effective to not reinforce jumping by speaking to or looking at or touching, pushing the dog off.....any attention at all. It's far more effective to ignore that attention seeking behavior and praise/treat when the dog stays on all fours or sits. Consistancy and good timing with rewarding the wanted behavior and ignoring behavior which is an attempt to seek attention will teach the dog much better and in a way he understands. Calmly saying "no" and touching the dog are nothing but reinforcing or rewarding the jumping up and makes it much more difficult for the pup to understand and learn.



PS..I don't believe hounds are more "stubborn" for one minute. They simply have different things which motivate them...things in their environment. And a little more of a challenge because of it. It is just the way they are. Steps have to be taken to counteract some of that....setting up the environment so the dog can learn better, working with a somewhat hungrier dog, using a higher value motivator or an unusual one that you might not have thought of....lots of things. Dog behavior has nothing to do with our values or morality.

Agreed!! well said (much better than my stumbling attempts lol).

Lynn

[dandandat]

What definition of "correcting" we're using here? If the dog jumps, even as a small puppy, isn't just calmly saying no, and placing it back on the floor correcting?

I don’t know in what way Adojrts took my use of the word correction. But what I meant was putting her back down on the floor and telling her no, or not giving her attention until she gets down on her own. Perhaps Adojrts see’s correction as synonyms with punishment, I’m not up on the dog training lingo.

[dandandat]

And to add to Adojrts... Bassets are NOT small dogs, they are large dogs eith small legs. Compare your pup's body size with a lab or something, and then compare her body size to a Chihuahua. Big difference, yes?

Sammy is a small Basset, she is about the size of a cocker spaniel, shorter and perhaps a inch longer. A little heavier do to the bone mass. But you are correct, Sammy has met some big Bassets at the vet.

[dandandat]

PS..I don't believe hounds are more "stubborn" for one minute. They simply have different things which motivate them...things in their environment. And a little more of a challenge because of it. It is just the way they are. Steps have to be taken to counteract some of that....setting up the environment so the dog can learn better, working with a somewhat hungrier dog, using a higher value motivator or an unusual one that you might not have thought of....lots of things. Dog behavior has nothing to do with our values or morality.

Well, I am not a doggie sociologist or philosopher so I wont quibble over the correct terminology to describe that the dog is more motivated by outside influences then wishing to please their master as compared to other doges that have a larger drive to please their masters. You can write that in a paragraph – I’ll just call it being stubborn.

[ToscasMom]

And two) she jumps up on us and others, which is our own fault because he aren’t consistent in correcting her, many times its just cute since she is a small dog.

It is not cute. You think it's cute and half the people she does it too pretend it's cute. She's not as small as you think and one day she will knock a small child down and it might not be cute at all.

You also discuss that your dog is "Stubborn". I take this to mean sometimes she obeys and sometimes she doesn't. This alone tells me you need obedience training. When i took my dog to training, it turned out that I was the one who needed to be trained on how to train my dog, how to make her very obedient. Why would that be important? Well, I had already made a dozen mistakes with her that I didn't even know were mistakes till I learned how to train my dog. I thought I was doing just great and my dog was just stubborn. Sound familiar? Secondly, if your dog is not obeying your commands with strong regularity, one day she might run out into the road and you will tell her to come back and just maybe she won't. Hopefully, a car won't be in her way. The truth is, that unless you learn how to be your dog's leader according to who she is and who you are, there will always be the potential for problems. I looked at professional training as security for the safety of both me and my dog.

[Dekka]

Well, I am not a doggie sociologist or philosopher so I wont quibble over the correct terminology to describe that the dog is more motivated by outside influences then wishing to please their master as compared to other doges that have a larger drive to please their masters. You can write that in a paragraph – I’ll just call it being stubborn.

The reason stubborn is not a good way to think of your dog is that it buts the problem on them..As in my dog is stubborn. See that makes it the dogs fault, so the solution is difficult. If you say I need to work at motivating my dog, the solution is within your grasp.

Hounds are not stubborn. They are hounds, not border collies, there is a big difference.

[dandandat]

It is not cute. You think it's cute and half the people she does it too pretend it's cute. She's not as small as you think and one day she will knock a small child down and it might not be cute at all.

Your probably right. I never said I was right in letting her do it. And I have blamed my self for it not her.

But now I have to say something. I have been on this sight for two days some of the posts I have read have been hostile toward me and condescending and I donot understand where its coming from. Is that how things are around here, should I find a nother place to post?


You also discuss that your dog is "Stubborn". I take this to mean sometimes she obeys and sometimes she doesn't. This alone tells me you need obedience training. When i took my dog to training, it turned out that I was the one who needed to be trained on how to train my dog, how to make her very obedient. Why would that be important? Well, I had already made a dozen mistakes with her that I didn't even know were mistakes till I learned how to train my dog. I thought I was doing just great and my dog was just stubborn. Sound familiar? Secondly, if your dog is not obeying your commands with strong regularity, one day she might run out into the road and you will tell her to come back and just maybe she won't. Hopefully, a car won't be in her way. The truth is, that unless you learn how to be your dog's leader according to who she is and who you are, there will always be the potential for problems. I looked at professional training as security for the safety of both me and my dog.

No I am talking about this

Basset Hound Club of America (http://www.basset-bhca.org/Finding/Discover1.htm)

The Basset Personality

Despite a deliberate, unhurried manner and captivatingly clownish demeanor, the Basset Hound possesses great intelligence and what may often be viewed as stubbornness may more appropriately be attributed to an innate ingenuity. In fact, the Basset excels at getting his way, from “demanding” a tasty morsel at the table to hurling his hefty 65 pounds into your lap! His overly long body, short legs and delightful wrinkles become a kaleidoscope of amusing expressions, all cleverly orchestrated to win us over. And win us over he does. Gentle and sociable in nature, the easy-going Basset Hound is loyal to master and family, devoted to children and mild-mannered and friendly towards other animals


PERSONALITY & PHYSICAL TRAITS OF
THE BASSET HOUND

Calm, good-natured and affectionate. Gets along well with people and other dogs and pets. Good with children. Loves to be a lap dog. Not a good guard dog.

Sensitive and stubborn nature. A Basset takes punishment and reprimands to heart. Can be stubborn and conveniently “hard of hearing.”

Pack mentality. A single Basset may not do well left alone for long periods. For working owners, the company of another dog is the next best thing to having you there.

A scent hound. The Basset was bred to trail game. His keen nose can lead him into dangerous situations such as the path of a speeding car or an unfenced swimming pool. The Basset is safest in a secure, enclosed area.

Relatively low activity level. Prone to obesity. Healthy, trim Bassets have good energy levels, but they are also content to snooze away the afternoon in a patch of warm sun. Although this laid back nature makes them desirable house pets, their weight must be kept in check. A daily walk with your Basset is recommended.

A large, hefty dog, possessing more bone for its size than any other breed of dog. Although Bassets are low to the ground, they are not small dogs, with most ranging from 50 to 65 pounds. The average person will have a difficult time lifting an adult Basset Hound.

A smooth-coated dog. A wash-and-wear dog who may be bathed as frequently as needed. Bassets are either tri-colored (a combination of black, white and tan) or red-and-white (a lighter red-and-white may be called lemon-and-white). Coat colors are distributed over the body in no particular pattern.

Growing puppies have special needs. Until they are a year old, Basset puppies should not go up and down long flights of stairs or be allowed to jump on and off elevated objects such as couches, beds or porches. The joints of this heavy-boned breed are still forming and excessive stress or strain may cause permanent injury. After a year of age, these activities, within reason, are usually not harmful to your Basset.

Short legs may mean a needed boost! Many, but not all, sturdy, low-slung Basset Hounds may require assistance getting into a car. The unique, low-stationed Basset does not excel at jumping.

Long ears and droopy eyes need cleaning. Nails need trimming. The long ears of a Basset do not allow good circulation of air and are prone to infection. Owners should clean their dog’s ears once a week. The Basset’s droopy eyes should also be kept clean of debris and nails trimmed once or twice monthly

If the word stubber is good enough for the Basset Hound Club of America, i think it works for a guy just looking to have a four legged freind.

[DoggyDaze]

...
and by the way, the "miniture doberman" would be a Miniture Pinscher. Not related to the Doberman Pinscher at all :)

Or a Manchester Terrier maybe?

[Dekka]

JRTs are described as stubborn and difficult to train in their breed standard...but that doesn't make it so. And of course your dog would be your friend? :confused: (I wouldn't describe my friends as stubborn...not if I was their friend)

[ToscasMom]

Lots of breeds have stubborn streaks. You look up Collie, you see stubborn. It's still not an excuse not to become the definitive leader and have a well trained dog. it will come in handy when it is most important. So all the more then, training is important. The thing here is learning how to train your dog. That is what obedience training does best. When my dog was about four months old, her leash snapped off her collar because I didn't have it secured right....... and she kept going. She was on a free jog in seconds. Without obedience training, there was a good chance she would have kept going when I called her back to me. If I had not been trained to be her leader and to show her that when I give a command she must follow it and not think about it first, Tosca could have very easily kept going.

[ToscasMom]

I forgot to answer you dandan about the tone of my response. I guess your initial post came off as though you were rather full of yourself without recognizing that your dog is not exactly as well trained as you were implying. I garnered this from the description of her jumping and stubbornness toward your commands. So I responded in like and kind, which heaven knows, I am known to do.

[Dekka]

Warning chaz members, while smart, loyal and compassionate, are often stubborn, willfull and at times a touch aggressive :D (or read determined, confident and assertive)

[ToscasMom]

Warning chaz members, while smart, loyal and compassionate, are often stubborn, willfull and at times a touch aggressive

..just the way we like our dogs!

[hbwright]

Back to the OP, I've raised a limited number of dogs through adulthood. My first one I never did ob training and 13 years later I have a truely stubborn dog. She rules the roost and she knows it. She does not have to listen to me and she knows it. I am not her ruler and I know it. I'm sorry that I didn't know better until it was too late. Even after I realized that dogs need training she was already an adult dog and well behaved to my liking so I didn't think it would benefit either one of us. The other dogs that I've had I realized that it would be nice to have a nice, well behaved dog that I can finally be the master of. I decided to give ob a try and I loved it. It is a wonderful bonding experience for us and I love the results that can be used for years and years to come. I am confident in my abilities to care for my babies and they are confident in knowing how to please me. It is a win/win situation.

I've also noticed the 3 dogs I've done training with all have differences. Not a single thing worked exactly the same as the other one. It's been nice having a trainer to work out different strategies for us to work on to find what works the best for us. I probably could have figured out by trial and error what works but I like having a teacher to come up with ideas with me.

[PWCorgi]

Just thought I'd mention it (not sure if somebody already has or not).

Even if you do think that her jumping is cute or you don't mind it, she is a long-backed breed that is prone to disk problems. It's really not safe for her to be jumping up.

[Doberluv]

The reason stubborn is not a good way to think of your dog is that it buts the problem on them..As in my dog is stubborn. See that makes it the dogs fault, so the solution is difficult. If you say I need to work at motivating my dog, the solution is within your grasp.

Hounds are not stubborn. They are hounds, not border collies, there is a big difference.

Exactly Dekka. Those AKC descriptions are not begotten from applied behaviorists, I'm sure. Or they're done that way so most dog owners can relate. But it really does dogs a disservice. The trouble is, that it's not accurate and what we name it IS important. Dogs get the short end of the stick enough as it is. Thinking a dog is stubborn and willful, as he might be if he were a human is so off the mark and it ends up that many dogs get mistreated on account of this way of thinking.

To describe a dog as stubborn, implies that they "know" better, but are choosing to disobey. This is anthropormorphizing...or projecting human cognitive abilities onto dogs as if they share our value system or morals. dogs are animals and do what works FOR THEM. People need to get off the myth that dogs are motivated to do things to solely and directly please their owners. Stubborn: A dog so described is simply undertrained.

Science shows us that dogs do not think this way. I recommend you read the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. She paints a very good picture of how dogs learn and see the world. It would be a good start for anyone.

[adojrts]

..just the way we like our dogs!


Or just like our dogs!!!
I have been told I am very much like my Jrts lol, short, mouthy, tenacious, opinionated, independent, loyal and often misunderstood!!!!!!!!!!!! In short a royal pain in the ass.:lol-sign:

Lynn

[Zoom]

LOL from the Aussie-clone! Energetic, too smart sometimes for my own good, quite mouthy, loyal and a slight control freak. :D

[TopShelfPets]

But now I have to say something. I have been on this sight for two days some of the posts I have read have been hostile toward me and condescending and I do not understand where its coming from. Is that how things are around here, should I find a nother place to post?


Tone is very hard to read online sometimes. A lot of the people here come off somewhat abrasively (especially in this particular forum, it seems) but please understand that they always have the dog's best interest at heart, and many of them have seen a lot of very sad things involving dogs that had to be put to sleep or were killed due to improper training.

Your origninal post went in two very different directions.

1)It asked what the point of obedience classes are, if the dog is being handled to the owner's satisfaction.

My answer is: Most people don't realize they are training inconsistently, confusing their dogs, or the range of "basic manners" a dog needs to know to get along. If you don't take your dog much of anywhere, and she is well behaved enough for your liking, you probably won't invest in classes. Personally, I think that's okay. I have put my dog through obedience classes because I needed to learn how to teach him. Plus, they're super fun and a great bonding experience.

2)Your original post went on to say that your dog has a jumping problem, and you seemed somewhat insecure about it. Like maybe what you really wanted to ask is: Is it worth taking obedience classes when really, my dog only has this one problem and it's not a huge one, in my opinion?

My answer is: If you recognize jumping as a problem, and recognize that you have been inconsistent/inaccurate in fixing the problem, then classes are well worth it. (Plus, they're super fun and a great bonding experience;)) Some people don't mind being jumped on, some mind a great deal. Dogs mostly seem to do this when first meeting people (in my experience anyway) and so if you're stooping down and have ahold of her collar when you open the door, and you're ok with that, then maybe you don't want to invest in lessons.

But here's the thing. Lessons are an investment. Isn't your dog worth investing in?

[GlassOnion]

Obedience class is most definitely more for the owner than the dog. It's fine for the dog socialization wise but honestly it's the trainer teaching YOU how to teach YOUR dog. You should be working with it more at home than at the class unless you send your dog away to one of those puppy academies or whatever where they teach it for you. But where's the satisfaction in that?

We've home trained all of our dogs and they're all loyal and well mannered. Our only regret is that we've taught them all with vocal commands and no visual. This made it a problem when our older dog started going deaf and we had to re-train her for visual. It was a bit harder too since she couldn't hear us (or maybe she was ignoring us, I don't know how deafness works. I've heard stuff about vibration of the ear drums and yada yada). Point being is to teach them to respond to visual and auditory commands.

Here's two stories. I'm not saying one or the other is better, I'm just saying they both have their pros and cons.

My sister recently got a dog (recently as in a year ago) that she took to a dog training class. The dog still won't listen when she tells it to sit. Why? Because when she says sit (and isn't holding food) the dog doesn't listen. She then becomes angry and frustrated, gives up, and discounts it to stubbornness. The dog is a lab. She knows labs can be trained and trained well because we have a lab here at home (she's not living with us). So did obedience school help? No, because the owner failed.

The other story is sad, but my dad loves to tell it (though he leaves out the end most of the time). He used to have a dog that he trained so well that he could tell it to sit outside of a super market he used to visit and go inside, do his shopping, and the dog would still be sitting there (sitting, it wouldn't lay down unless he told it he could. He would, but I'm just mentioning this for emphasis). The dog would listen to other people but only if he hadn't given it a command first. So you could lay meat right over this dogs nose and it wouldn't eat it if my father told it no. Then one day it got out and my aunt found it (she lived across the street at the time) and called it to come to her. She did and all was well. Except that at that point my dad came out of the back yard gate (he was looking for her at the time) and the dog saw him. My aunt told the dog to stay but the dog was used to going to my dad when he was around so the dog took off for what it knew as the higher authority. Well as it was running towards my dad it had to, unfortunately, cross a street. And I'm willing to bet you can guess the rest.


But the point is that it doesn't matter if it's through an obedience class or through yourself. You can have a well trained dog either way.

[elegy]

pit bulls can be stubborn, too. they just refer to it as tenacious ;)

but that doesn't mean that they can't learn and that they can't be extremely motivated and wonderful workers if you find the right button to push.

personally all of my dogs have been to obedience class. i'm just finishing up beginner obedience with the ten year old dog i recently adopted. did he need to go? no. he's an extremely easy, mellow dog with no real behavior problems (except his anxiety, which class doesn't address). i've certainly learned nothing from the class that i didn't know before. but i think it's been a good experience for both of us, and i know he's enjoyed it.

[dandandat]

I forgot to answer you dandan about the tone of my response. I guess your initial post came off as though you were rather full of yourself without recognizing that your dog is not exactly as well trained as you were implying. I garnered this from the description of her jumping and stubbornness toward your commands. So I responded in like and kind, which heaven knows, I am known to do.

There was no intended arrogance in my initial post. I was simply asking a question that I have been pondering for quite some time “Whether or not to attended an obedience class with my dog”. I would hate to pay money and waist time to find that what they are trying to teach me and my dog we already know. So aside form my question I described my situation because it is integral to my question.

In response I got some very nice posts form people, stating that obedience classes are more then just learning to sit, that it teaches the owner how to deal with the dog more effectively by examining the motivations and mentality of the dog. Also that obedience classes are a good way to socialize the dog with other humans and other dogs. Still further some have explained that even though they had a relatively obedient dog, the classes where beneficial to them for versus reasons, some of which are bonding and just having fun.

To those people I thank you for answering my question.

From others, I was dictated the size of my dog, as if some person on the other side of a computer screen knows how my dog looks better then I do after actually living and taking care of it for the past year.

I was rudely criticized (as apposed to constructive criticism) for potential correcting my dog for jumping up by one person, and then for not correcting her from jumping up by another person.

I was also jumped on for using a word that is used on ever basset hound web sight or physical document I have ever read. These people would have me believe that some ‘animus person’ sitting at their computer knows better then the “Basset Hound Club of America” a ‘whole origination’ dedicated to the basset hound.

[dandandat]

To describe a dog as stubborn, implies that they "know" better, but are choosing to disobey. This is anthropormorphizing...or projecting human cognitive abilities onto dogs as if they share our value system or morals. dogs are animals and do what works FOR THEM. People need to get off the myth that dogs are motivated to do things to solely and directly please their owners. Stubborn: A dog so described is simply undertrained.


I would have to disagree, more precisely I don’t draw the same conclusion you do.

You said "dogs are animals and do what works FOR THEM", to me that sounds like an acceptable definition of stubbornness. Being Stubborn, is doing what works for you and not what works for others, a pure animistic reaction.

Sure another definition of stubborn is actively trying not to do something others want you to do for humanly motivated reasons. Like when my wife wants to be right about something and so does not give in even when she is proved wrong. Yes that’s being stubborn as well. But the word in my opinion can be used both ways. I would believe when used to described the bread it is the former rather then the latter these organizations are using. In fact they say as much in their description of the dog.

“undertrained” is a bad way to describe the difference between dogs, because dogs come in all shapes and sizes, some can be trained to do something better and more easily then others. Further what one would called trained for one dog is not the same trained for another dog. For example, Bassets are bread to be independent dogs for small game hunting, they are not bread to be lap dogs. But if one stated that always healing to be a staple of being properly trained the Basset will fail that criteria as it is just not in their nature to do.

[elegy]

You said "dogs are animals and do what works FOR THEM", to me that sounds like an acceptable definition of stubbornness. Being Stubborn, is doing what works for you and not what works for others, a pure animistic reaction.

why is that stubborn? if luce heels perfectly with attention and in the right place because she knows that makes good things for dogs happen, i certainly don't call it being stubborn. she's doing what works for her, and it just happens to be what i want, because i've made it the best game in town.

[ToscasMom]

Doberluv, I just wanted to take a moment to tell you that I appreciate all the help you gave me as a PROFESSIONAL when I first got here. Thank Dog (lol) I was smart enough to know how smart I wasn't and I took the time to learn how to understand and handle my dog properly. I have a long way to go compared to some of you chaz PROS, but I recognize it and I know I will get there because of all the Pros like you on Chaz. Have a good day!

[ToscasMom]

There was no intended arrogance in my initial post. I was simply asking a question that I have been pondering for quite some time “Whether or not to attended an obedience class with my dog”. I would hate to pay money and waist time to find that what they are trying to teach me and my dog we already know.
Yes I appreciate that and the thing is, there are some very professional trainers on Chaz trying to tell you that you DO need to get professional training, not only for your dog, but for yourself. In return you are rebutting what they are trying to tell you instead of taking a moment to let what people with decades of experience are trying politely to tell you. What you are essentially doing is debating with experts who are trying to educate you...for free.

So aside form my question I described my situation because it is integral to my question.

Yes I can understand that. It is also in integral part of your dog training as it is a problem that will get worse in the future unless you seek the advise of someone with experience in knowing how to teach you how to train your dog with his own particular idiosyncrasies in the mix.