Breeders Question

[malndobe]

I've only skimmed your posts, but from what you said it sounds like these pups didn't get colostrum since mom wasn't producing anything for the first few days. This is where their initial immunities come from, without it, they won't have moms immunity and will be more prone to catching something like Parvo. Talk to your vet about this, and see if they suggest starting vaccinations a little earlier than normal with your litter.

[SchnauzerMom]

I have bred two of my miniature schnauzers this year. The first breeding went off without a hitch. The second one has not been the same.

My girl whelped a litter of 6 on 7-7-07. We lost one. Since its late I don't want to get into the why's and how's that occurred just yet, because it doesn't apply to the question at hand.

When the second pup was whelped who was the one we lost there was lots of dark green discharge. My vet explained this was normal and not to worry. After about 24 hours the green began to change to a brownish red, which I thought to be good and normal. She delivered all the puppies within 4 hours time. She appeared to be fine and was just in awe of her puppies. Tonight she spiked a temp of 106. I immediately called my vet who has an emergency # at home that I can reach 24/7. I asked what I could do for her tonight as I already had an appt for early morning. He said to give her half of an aspirin. I did that. He mentioned that her milk good be drying up from having a temp that high. I gave her another half of a Pet Cal to help stimulate milk production. I took her away from her puppies when they were all content and resting. When she didn't want to drink on her own I fed her water through a dropper. Then I pulled out the chicken broth and she drank 1/2 a can of that willingly. A short bit later I put her with dry food, fresh water, and the remaining amount of chicken broth. She has bounced back and forth eating and drinking small amounts from each of them.

When the puppies began to want to feed again I put them back with her. If they were removed from her she would willingly eat and drink more...when they are with her she seems to stop meeting her own needs and does nothing, but feed them and clean them. I knew her personality would be to be an excellent mother as she even helped with the first litter who didn't belong to her...and truthfully would mother us if we allowed her to. I just don't like the idea that she won't even meet her own needs if it means getting up off the pups.

At some periods tonight when she appeared to feel the worst she wouldn't really respond to me or make eye contact with me...when I took the pups away that seemed to perk her up a bit. But also could have been the aspirin kicking in.

Her temp is now 104.6 - and she is still eating and drinking here and there. My question is...is there anything else I can do for her tonight before she see's the vet in the early morning?

In my internet searches for information I happened to run across this site and with no one else to really ask at 15 till 4 in the morning...I thought perhaps some more experienced breeders would have some suggestions.

[animalcraker]

I'm assuming you did an ultrasound or x-ray to know how many pups she was going to have. Did she give birth to all the predicted pups and did she have a placenta for each one of them? The only thing I could think of for you to do right now would be to take her to an E-vet or a least give them a call for a second opinon.

[SchnauzerMom]

Yes we did the x-ray and I counted all the placenta's. Everything totalled 6. Her labor was a bit confusing, because one sac bulged and went back in and did not reappear for nearly 13 hours. When it appeared was in her early labor of the panting, nesting, digging. My vet thinks this is probably the dead one came from.

The second issue I had was one pup was attached to her for just over an hour, because I couldn't get enough cord to cut it without risking a hernia. She tore the sac, cleaned the pup, and it was nursing while it was still attached. The next puppy was born and detached before I could get enough cord to cut it loose. I still counted 6 placenta's between the ones she ate and the ones I removed. The placenta from the dead one was tore up pretty good...perhaps a smaller portion of it was retained.

I do like that she will still attempt to eat and drink. I also think its a good sign that when the pups do nurse they seem content. However after they nurse is when I see her more tired naturally.

I have the a/c turned off in this room so the pups don't get chilled. I thought about turning a fan on her, but was concerned about the pups chilling. I didn't want to use a heat source this time of the year for them and possibly over heating them.

[bubbatd]

Please let us know what the vets says !

[SchnauzerMom]

Both vets were in and they both did exams on her. They did an x-ray to rule out a pup that was left behind. They believe it is either a partial placenta retained or a perforated uterus. The fever there was the same as I last posted. 104.5. They gave her an antibiotic shot for infection, they gave her banamine to bring her fever down, and sent her home with amoxicillin 250mg to be given twice a day. If she is not better by morning they will go ahead and spay her.

The only difference in their opinions was whether or not to give milk replacer to the puppies. I wanted to give it to her to give her a break. Give her a chance to get her milk back up. It seemed as if the puppies were staying on her at the end of the night/early morning before going into the vet. A few of the puppies were nursing and whining at the same time...which told me they weren't getting enough milk. I feel if she is given a break and we let the fever come down she may be able to produce enough milk...as it stands I don't see she has any supply of milk. Perhaps the second vet didn't pay attention enough to how her supply was, but he should have because he checked her for mastsis.

3 days old had a difficult time sucking from the bottle, so I used an eye dropper and fed all 5. Hopefully I can use milk replacer for 12 hours and see how Mom is then. If she is doing better and has milk to feed them then alternate milk replacer w/ Mom's milk.

Her intestines were full too and she had not had a bowel movement since she had her babies. She has had since bringing her back home. She's up and about (only because I have her babies) - eating and drinking.

I will check her temp in a few more hours and hopefully it will be down dramatically.

I did ask what more I could have done for her while we waited through the night. He said I had done everything there was to do. I questioned cool cloths or anything. He said no. I guess I was just reaching and hoping there was something more I could do beyond prayer.

Oh she just came to me for loving and I took her temp...its now down to 102.8, so its coming down.

[Maxy24]

I'm glad her temps getting back to normal I really hope her and her pups are OK. sending good ((((((VIBES)))))) that everything is alright. This is one of the worst parts of breeding there is, loosing the mom, hopefully you will not have to endure that :( you seem to be doing everything you can, keep up the good work on them.

[SchnauzerMom]

Many years ago I rescued an Irish Setter who no one knew was pregnant and of course by not knowing didn't get proper care - one day she came up missing . We thought oh no she's going to have puppies in 9 weeks. I had just gotten this dog and she was extremely malnourished. She was about a year and a half old. Died giving birth. Uterus perforated and died with two pups in her. She had passed 3 or 4 still borns...had 6 live. The vet at the time told me if I was able to keep half of them alive I was doing good. Well his statement struck a nerve with me and I was determined they would all make it. I sat up day and night with these babies. I did not go to sleep until my husband was up to watch over these babies. It was my first ever hand raised litter and one got milk into her lungs and I did loose her. The rest lived. I kept one of course and had him neutered. He's still with me and graying gracefully. The rest found good homes.

I do know what its like to loose a mother. Since I had not had the Irish Setter but just a week or so loosing her couldn't compare to loosing one of my schnauzers. This schnauzer is top dog in my book and hers too - she's the alpha dog. Although that said loosing the Irish Setter was hard enough.

I'm committed to hand feeding these if need be. I'm prepared to have her spayed tomorrow morning if that is what is best for her. I'm prepared to let them run IV's or whatever they need to do in order to keep her alive and back to health.

Everything I shared with them about her delivery didn't seem all that abnormal to them.

I think the lesson here was to have the oxytocin shot on hand. I talked to the vet a couple of times over the weekend and he felt everything was proceeding normally until her fever spiked last night. Having her litter on Saturday and them being closed on Sunday didn't make it conveinent to have that 24 hour check up to make sure nothing was retained. Everything happens after closing time or on a Sunday or so it seems.

Whatever it takes I will do.

[SchnauzerMom]

OK next question...the fever is now broke (at least until the banamine wears off)...she has no milk. Can increasing her Pet Cal and fluid intake bring back her milk or can I expect to bottle feed for the next 4-5 weeks?

Any help and input would be greatly appreciated.

[Fran27]

I think your vet will be the best to help you...

And I agree, definitely get her spayed.

[RedyreRottweilers]

At the age they are you will want to tube feed, not bottle feed. Your vet can show you how. It is fast and efficient and takes much less time. If you are not going to let the puppies nurse the bitch, take a panty hose leg, cut holes in it for her legs, and slip it on so it covers her breasts, this way she can stay in with the puppies and clean them.

Talk to your vet about tube feeding, hand raising a litter is so much work and this will save you time. If your bitch is dried up I doubt you see milk again.

[RedyreRottweilers]

re: oxytocin, you really need more information than you would have in order to safely use it. You need information on if the bitch is having strong contractions still, which can indicate a malpresentation or transverse puppy, or if contractions are weak and ineffective, in which case sometimes oxytocin can help. Injectible calcium can also improve the strength and efficiency of contractions, but these drugs can also cause uterine rupture and severe complications if used in the wrong circumstances.

[Miakoda]

re: oxytocin, you really need more information than you would have in order to safely use it. You need information on if the bitch is having strong contractions still, which can indicate a malpresentation or transverse puppy, or if contractions are weak and ineffective, in which case sometimes oxytocin can help. Injectible calcium can also improve the strength and efficiency of contractions, but these drugs can also cause uterine rupture and severe complications if used in the wrong circumstances.


Thank you. I cannot stand that so many uneducated (or undereducated whichever you prefer) want to play at-home-vet with drugs they have no business administering.

Two, I'm amazed they told you to give your bitch aspirin when there was the possiblity of internal bleeding (ruptured uterus....and even the fact that she just gave birth) when it is a known blood thinner and interferes with clotting.

And next time, if there has to be a next time, please don't wait 13 hours from when you see a protruding sack to when the pup is born! No offense, but that 13 hour period could've saved you & the bitch a whole lot of problems.

[noludoru]

At the risk of pissing people off...

I have to wonder, if you know so very little about breeding why did you do it in the first place? :confused:

[Bob4eva]

Firstly,im so sorry ta hear about your irish setter.
And second,I hope your dog is well very soon.

[adojrts]

If she isn't lactating yet but she hasn't rejected the pups........you should allow the pups to nurse which will help bring down the milk. Just continue to tube the pups every 2-3 hrs. It is possible to bring lactation after a bitch has dried up. I feed a very high quality dog food, PLUS cooked ground beef and rice, along with milk replacer to mom. Mom should be eating ALL she wants but nothing less than several cups per day(talk to your vet as to how much she should have as a min).
Are you weighing the pups twice a day? Weighing the pups twice a day, is the only way to know if they are thriving or failing. Keep a Weight Chart for each pup and try to weigh them at the same time each day.
I weigh pups like this for the first two weeks even when its a normal whelping, let alone one with problems. Then I take weights on them 3 times a wk for the next week. After 3 wks I weight the pups twice a week.

I hope you continue to take Moms temp several times a day in case it spikes at anytime during the next couple of weeks.

Good luck
Lynn

[adojrts]

Thank you. I cannot stand that so many uneducated (or undereducated whichever you prefer) want to play at-home-vet with drugs they have no business administering.

Two, I'm amazed they told you to give your bitch aspirin when there was the possiblity of internal bleeding (ruptured uterus....and even the fact that she just gave birth) when it is a known blood thinner and interferes with clotting.

And next time, if there has to be a next time, please don't wait 13 hours from when you see a protruding sack to when the pup is born! No offense, but that 13 hour period could've saved you & the bitch a whole lot of problems.


Absolutely agree on all three counts.

[SchnauzerMom]

Thank you for the responses. I suscribed to this thread, but didn't receive any email notices of new posts. I was surprised when I came back to give an update that there were so many responses.

First I want to say she is doing great as well as the puppies. We had to return to my vets office the following day for another shot of banamine. I was in frequent contact with both vet's there in the office giving them updates on her condition. I told them both times not to hesitate to do surgery on her if that was the best thing for her. On the first day they told me almost 100% of the time they need surgery to remove the uterus and the infection so it doesn't go else where into their body and that if she wasn't improving by morning then they definitely wanted to know and we would talk again about doing surgery. After receiving the injections while back home and through the night she had a large amount of creamy yellowish drainage. When I took her back in for another shot of banamine I stressed to him to go ahead and do the surgery if that was what she needed. His opinion at that time was he didn't feel like she needed the surgery just yet. If her conditioned worsened then she definitely would, but at that point in time he didn't feel that she did. He said she had only had one day of antibiotics, the infection was draining from her and he could feel a big differnce in just one day. He felt that given more time with the antibiotics that she would be one of the few that would not need the surgery. Getting her fever down and keeping it down is what we worked on the most.

Once her fever came down and the pups continued nursing on her - her milk did come back. She's been feeding them on her own without supplements almost 2 full days now. She is also nearly 48 hours without a fever. She's back up dancing, prancing, and doing her happy wiggles. Once her fever came down she also began getting up off the pups long enough to eat and drink. The Vet was surprised that she would still eat and drink if I took her away from the pups. He said most with a fever that high would not be eating or drinking.

I supplemented and had them nursing on her as well. I weighed them using electronic scales that measures in grams and then converted grams to ounces and keeping it all charted. Everyone continued to gain with the average being 10 grams of growth...except for one day...that pup didn't gain, but didn't loose either. I wasn't so concerned with that, because that particular pup had gained the most the day before. Then also the next day a different pup did the same however he gained the most just after remaining the same.

The mentioning of ocytocin wasn't to "play at-home-vet". It was a hypothetical question asked at an emotional time while I was caring for a very sick gal. It was a question worth asking if using it could have prevented this situation all together. I can't know for certain if it would have. But I am 100% certain that my vet would never give it to me to administer until he felt I was fully educated on using it by his instruction only.

Of all the litters whelped that I have witnessed or done myself I honestly thought her contractions seemed rather weak. I felt like that perhaps that's why she seemed to have a harder time.

13 hours of labor from the onset of labor to the delivery of puppies wasn't uncommon or abnormal according to anything I have ever read. The confusion came in as to why I would see a sac that would go back in at the onset of labor at the first stage of labor?

The breeders I know do sometimes use oxytocin. They mentor me and have been very willing to answer my questions. They've also mentioned that it also helps the milk come down. When I posted my original questions seeking answers...it was at 4 o'clock in the morning when nobody was available. We do not have a 24/7 animal hospital in our area...would have oxytocin been the answer instead of waiting 13 hours and seeing what I deemed to be weak contractions...I don't know, but I am going to find out.

Like I said she is doing great now, the puppies are doing great, and she will continue on her antibiotics & Pet Cal. I appreciate those who offerred helpful advice. I appreciate your kindess.

[SchnauzerMom]

Oh I also want to add once Mom's milk came back and she was able to nurse them...they gained an average of 20 grams per day instead of the 10 when they were being supplemented.

[noludoru]

I'm so glad she's okay. Keep us updated on her and her puppies' health.

[bubbatd]

Sounds like everthing is on track ! Happy sailing .