New puppy, old dog.

[myxcure]

Hi, I'm new to this forum so I hope there isn't another post just like this one.

I need some help, we have a 8 year old chihuahua that has, thusfar, been the ruler of our house, cars and yard. He was the runt of his litter and has always feared other dogs, even dogs of his own size. He wasn't happy when we brought cats home but within a week or two he showed them "who was boss" so to speak, and now he gets along just fine with them. Two weeks ago we brought home our labrador puppy, she was 7 weeks old. He didn't like her to begin with, but he wouldn't leave his tail between his legs. Now, two weeks later, he won't stop crouching everywhere and his tail is now permanently between his legs. We are obviously worried about him, but I can't imagine what we can do to make things better without making life miserable for the puppy, who didn't ask to be here. I've tried to get them to like one another but everytime he gets remotely close (or she gets close) she thinks he wants to play and starts bouncing around. This is a problem because she's already quite a bit larger than he is. I don't know what to do, any suggestions?

Sorry if it seems like a ramble, I'll answer any questions and I appreciate anything you guys can help me with.

Thanks, Ashley

[squirtsmom]

Oh boy, that is a tough one. Someone will give you good advice. I kind of feel for your old boy.

[noludoru]

I don't think I can help you with your situation, but possibly if you give more information someone with more knowledge can help you...

1. Details on the dogs' body language before hand? And when did the problem start (yesterday?)? And what is the body language of them both like now.. are they relaxed, tense, holding themselves up.. ear placement, tail placement--wag or stiffness?--, etc.
2. Have you left them alone, unsupervised, together?
3. What was your introductory process like?

For now, until you get some good advice.. keep them separated as much as possible. At the very least it can't hurt, and will prevent submissive urination.

[myxcure]

Oo okay. Let's see if I can do this justice, I'm not good with dog body language.

1. Details on the dogs' body language before hand? And when did the problem start (yesterday?)? And what is the body language of them both like now.. are they relaxed, tense, holding themselves up.. ear placement, tail placement--wag or stiffness?--, etc.

1. Pudge, the chihuahua, was, on the first day, apprehensive and would atleast smell her but stayed away for the most part. Today, for example, he wouldn't come out of my parents bedroom, except to go outside, and kept his tail between his legs, even when she wasn't around. He's been walking around with his ears slightly against his head and has a very stressed look about him. That's how he's been for the past week. We think he didn't think she was staying for week 1 because he wasn't nearly this tense.

Chip, the puppy, has a very pleasant look about her. She wants to play with him, so far she's reacted the same to every dog I've introduced her too, but they've all been larger dogs and either just ignore her or start playing with her. She'll wag her tail and bark and crouch down on the ground and longe at him and then jump around and it looks like she really wants him to play. Lately though, like today, she's started trying to push him around and jump on him, at this point he'll growl and strike at her trying to bite but this seems to just make her hop around even more. I'm afraid he's going to start getting aggressive with her but she won't get it and might hurt him in an attempt to play, or even worse start being aggressive back. I don't think she's an aggressive dog but even when I'll tell her "No." sternly she'll growl and do whatever it was she was doing harder (like biting) as though to challange my no. I'm afraid she's challanging his growl as well.


2. Have you left them alone, unsupervised, together?

2. No, we haven't. Everytime she gets around him he'll run towards a member of the family or under something she can't fit under. My dad is afraid to leave them alone because he's afraid she'll get aggressive to him and he won't be able to defend himself.


3. What was your introductory process like?

3. We probably weren't very smart with this, as we thought it wouldn't be this big of a deal, he was pretty good with the cats when we brought them home and we figured the puppy and he would be about the same size so he'd show his dominance, we were wrong. We brought her home and introduced them in the front yard where she proceeded to smell him, he stood his ground at this time, then she bounced off to go meet the cats, where she met the sharp end of my larger cats paw and hasn't messed with him since. She has suceeded to scare my other cat into hiding everytime their eyes meet. We tried sitting them both down and letting them sniff each other but this didn't work as she wasn't very interested in him as there were too many new things around. The next day pretty much the same thing happened and so at that time we tried to keep them seperate. She pretty much stays in my room and Pudge stays in my parents room. This worked fine but now, two weeks later, he's just gotten worse about her being here.

I hope this is helpful information, I was wondering if there is possibly a calming supplement or something I can give her? Her bouncy-ness is his problem I think. When he tries to show the slightest of interest in her she takes it as an invitation to play, I wonder if she doesn't understand that he isn't a puppy because of his size?

[myxcure]

Oh boy, that is a tough one. Someone will give you good advice. I kind of feel for your old boy.



Me too, I feel like I've betrayed him, which I have. But now that she's here I don't want to punish her, it wasn't her fault we brought her home with us, so I'm at a very unforseen crossroad and I think just a bit of good advice might see me through it. Otherwise I'll just have to make sure they stay away from one another. Once we get to our ranch that won't be nearly as tough, she'll sleep in the barn with the ponies and he'll go back to being the ruler of the house. But for now, I atleast want him to stop walking around so pathetically all the time.

[Buddy'sParents]

I'm in agreement with Squirtsmom.. this is a tough one. Hopefully Doc or Carrie will be around shortly to offer their expertise...

[Julie]

Wow...this is and will continue to be a "hard one" for you.

As your lab pup grows bigger and bigger and gets stronger and More playful.. your problem may get worse.

I wish that little chi would put her in her place while she is young and little.

I am sure you will get some great help around here as soon as the "right" people see your post. ;)

[Doberluv]

Have no fear. Do you see my avatar up on top? That's my big 90 lb Doberman playing gently with my 6 lb Chihuahua who is twice his age. Here's the deal. You have to actively teach your big lunk of a Lab what "gentle" means. That helps give a jump start to what she'll figure out too, just by maturing.

What has your reaction been to your Chihuahua when he crouches and tucks his tail?

Scolding your puppy harshly or saying, "NO!" is not such a great idea because you're associating the little dog with having a rotten time. Little dog equals rotten time. Little dog is BAD. I hate little dog. This is what can transpire. Seperating them all the time isn't good either because your puppy won't get socialized to your little dog and your little dog won't get to know your Lab. However, they MUST be supervised constantly until your Lab has learned to be gentle and is older. It can take months. So, brace yourself.

My Doberman was a lunatic....a very rambunctuous puppy and big and bony. He used his paws like a conductor of a symphany. His paws were his main tools. But he was not above using his teeth.

I would take him up to one of the Chihuahuas and SHOW him "gentle." I would physically keep him from swiping at the little dog with his paws and say in a low, super exaggerated, gentle whisper, "ge-n-n-ntle." When he kept his paws off and just nudged gently with his nose, he got a treat/praise. (Be sure to only use the word, "gentle" WHEN she IS being gentle. You don't want her to associate that cue word with roughness. So, be careful not to use it before she's settled down.

My Chihuahuas weren't particularly afraid of my Dobe or cross with him. So, they didn't mind standing there while I crouched down with all three of them. Sometimes I sat on the floor Indian style and just held them on my lap and showed Lyric (Doberman) how he can play with them. If he was too rough and my Chihuahua wouldn't say anything, I'd go, "ou, ou, ou, ou" like it really hurt and use a no reward marker, like...."nah..." Not harshly like, "NO!!!" But like, that is no good, here, do this.

Hold your Chi on your lap and show him like you're shielding him a little bit.... and make it like it's going to be a game. When he's NOT acting afraid, give him treats too...tiny, pea sized pieces of fresh meat or white cheese. Praise him when he's even just a little bit happy and brave. Ignore him when he's crouching. If this still proves to be too close for comfort for him, then you'll have to start out with some distance between them. You'll need another person to help by holding the pup back with a leash and harness. You can let your Chi watch your puppy play with another person with a ball, say, and praise your Chi when he's acting OK with it. (Distance between them.) Just try to make it the best time ever whenever the puppy is in the same room.

Everytime the pup is in the presence of your Chi, reward your Chi, if and only if he's acting relatively brave and cheery.

With dogs of the same size, they can tell each other things. The Chihuahuas can tell the bigger dog off too, but the problem is, it can be too late. One big swipe with a heavy leg across the back of a Chi can break the back. So, that is why it is necessary IMO to show the big puppy how to be gentle. Then seperate them when you can't be right on top of them. Don't scold if Lab puppy gets in there too close or too rough. Just get in the middle of them and show her some more what you mean. Reward CONSISTANTLY with a tasty treat, praise and your cue word for behavior you like.

Ignore your Chi when he walks around with his tail between his legs. Don't fuss over him. But don't let your Lab terrorize him and just help them get use to each other.

Give your Chi some space. Do things with him, just you and him and do the same with your Lab. It's fine to seperate them when you can't be watching them. I just meant that you wouldn't want to seperate them all the time or they won't get use to each other and won't learn how to play. Your Chi can learn to enjoy or at least, tolerate your Lab if you make it as pleasant as possible for him. Make him have a safe place; a crate he can go into when he wants to, to get away from it all.

Get your pup into a puppy obedience class soon. Be sure it is a reputable positive method trainer. Get references. Watch a class first before you sign up. As your Lab learns obedience skills and matures, she'll become a more thinking dog, more responsible. You'll be able to offer alternative behaviors better and she'll generally grow a bigger brain. Be sure she gets plenty of outdoor romping and get her somewhat tired out several times during the day. Play fetch, teach some skills. Keep her brain and body busy.

It won't happen over night. It's a learning process and it takes lots of patience and caution. But eventually, your puppy will get the picture that these little dogs are fragile.

My dogs can all play outside, go on hikes and Lyric is very careful. If they're all running and in a tight place, he'll jump over them if needed to avoid hurthing them. He totally gets it. When he gets up on the couch and one is there and there's not much room for him, you can see him manuver himself carefully so he won't bump the little dogs. But a lot of that came from just growing up. They learn on their own but intervention from us is necessary during the puppy stage in order to manage the situation and protect the little dogs. And I think it helps get the big, clutzy puppy on the road to learning new ways of playing with tiny dogs. Let us know how it goes.

[Doberluv]

See how they like each other and how civilized Lyric became?

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data/500/medium/toke_lyree_chuli_jose.JPG

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data/500/medium/mmmmmm_love_that_heat.JPG

[myxcure]

Aw those pictures are adorable.

Thank you soooo much that made a lot of sense. I'll start doing what you suggested. Is 8 weeks too young to go into obedience classes?

Another thing, do you think this would work even though our Chihuahua is afraid of other dogs his very own size? There used to be a female chihuahua out at my barn and he would always run with his tail between his legs when she came around too. He actually acted more terrified of her than the horses, which I found strange, maybe it was because the horses didn't care that he was there and ignored him whereas the dog wanted to play..?

I'll start doing this and see if things progress and definetly keep an update to make sure I'm doing it right :)

[Doberluv]

Well, it may not help your Chi much. Probably he didn't get saturated enough with other dogs before he was about 5 months old. That's the critical period for socialization and if you miss that, it's extremely difficult to re-coup. You may have to go very slowly and keep them at a distance where your Chi IS comfortable and desensatize him the best you can from there. You don't want to force your Chi to have to tolerate your big puppy at so close and frightening a distance until he's OK with her from across the whole room, or however far works. Your Chi may never develop a real love for your Lab but if you can get him to at least be unafraid, that would be great. It is difficult when your Chi is afraid of little dogs as well. I kind of forgot how you said that.

So, I guess the best you can do is to protect your Chi and try and show your Lab some other alternatives to roughness and reinforce/reward for that better behavior....reinforce A LOT and try to prevent any little escalation of excitability from your Lab close to your Chi. Prevent it at the first sign of intention from your Lab. Redirect her to another behavior right away so she doesn't get reinforced for the rotten behavior. Just doing it is reinforcement for her because it' fun.

Eight weeks is a little young for a class. I'd wait for two sets of vaccines and probably most trainers will require that as well. In the meantime, you can browse around the puppy and training forums and even do a search for things like teaching sit, down, come etc. You can start right away as long as you don't put a lot of pressure on your pup. It is all fun and games, rewards and very short times spent at any one time....like 5 minutes or even little skills, one here, one there throughout the day.

I do wish you the best. It will be a bigger challenge with the Chi and the Lab pup, but I think you can do it. Just let your pup be a pup and protect your Chi at the same time. Little by little, baby steps....your Lab will get so she learns to be careful. It is very difficult to have to be so diligent. I remember that time. It took months before I could trust them together without me right there, hovering. Not an easy task.

[myxcure]

Yeah, today we tried to get them to atleast sniff each other and he was terrified so I'll try baby steps.

She already sits, lays down, stays and follows on command :) She's really good at the sitting, I think it's her favorite thing to do after biting.

[Doberluv]

She's really good at the sitting, I think it's her favorite thing to do after biting

LOL!!! Well, it sounds like you're doing great! Labs are wonderful dogs to train.

Yes, take it gradually and remember not to fuss and coo over him when he is terrified. You'll reinforce that. Try to catch him when he's relatively comfortable when she's at a workable distance and reinforce that. Try to act like you're very unconcerned so he doesn't pick up on your unease. Dogs are experts at reading us.

[Ratboy]

I got my Pit mix pup Gus (gone over 8 years now) when my Lab Joe and Lab mix Blackie were 7 and 8 respectively. I got him from my vet, who was "stuck" with a litter of pups who needed to stay due to a staph infection they all had, and the owners never came back, they moved a couple days after dropping them off.

Everything was ok at the vets, and on the way home, they got along great. I thought, "Wow, this is going to be easy!". Until I got home. Blackie just ignored the pup, like she did the cat when we got him, but Joe was just plain nasty. He didn't attack him, he just glared, growled, and sneered at him. The first couple of nights were basically me trying to keep the Lab from scaring the crap out of the pup. I got no sleep, and was only able to keep the pup from being terrorized by putting him between my legs and making Joe lay next to me. At least they got some sleep. By the 4th day, I was a mess, but the sneers had decreased.

On the 5th day, I took the pup for a shot, and Joe went for a nail clip and a heartworm test. Suddenly, they started playing on the exam room floor, and everything was great after that for almost 4 years, when the Lab had a couple of hundred mini-strokes, and seemed to not know who the pup was, now about 3x as strong as the Lab was at his peak, attacked him several times, pushing Gus to the point he slightly retaliated. He had to be put down the next morning. Gus was devastated, and was a mess until he saw Joe's body. Blackie went a year later. Gus and the cat got along well, with the cat running the show. When Gus went at 14.5 years, we got King and Molly. King thought the cat was the greatest toy ever. Molly ignored him. After months of the cat screeching in anger at King's torment, he finally figured out that maybe King wasn't Satan after all and started playing with him like he played with Gus a decade plus before. Sadly, the cat went sour and we had to put him down a few weeks later, at just short of 17.

They will get better, eventually, you just have to wait it out.