Huge dog problem. Making sure I'm doing this right.

[XTREEMMAK]

On the right side, a 8 month old Miniature Girl Schnauzter. On the left, a 9 week old Girl Yorki. Here's the problem. I've introduced the schnauzter to the scent of the yorki a week earlier. Earlier today, I indruduced both dogs. It wasnt preaty. The schnauzer got mad and tryed snapping at the yorki. So I took her away and slaped her on the nose and said no. Later on that same day I came home. I tryed a new technique. I put the yorki in a mesh cage, and left the schnauzer outside to observe. The schnauzter smelled her for a bit. Then all of a sudden went back to the same rutine. She attacked the cage, frightening the small yorki. I did the same thing and brought the yorki away.

I hope that I'm doing the right thing by introducing the Schnautzer to the Yorki like this. The Schnautzer knows that it's the alpha dog around the house next to me, and the rest of the family, and to see this new dog come in, she's jelouse. The Yorki is my sister's dog and the Schnautzer is mine. Q-Tip (Schnautzer) has had some training, but as far as other dog interaction, the only dogs that I've taken her to see was her parents. Mela (Yorki) has been taken home from her parents yesterday and is still getting used to her new surroundings. So on top of that, she's also scared of Q-tip because she's a new, much bigger dog.

Please,
I really need Q-Tip to regard Mela as a pack member. What else can I do to help Q-Tip ?

[Renee750il]

One of the first things is to introduce them - on leash - on neutral ground, like a park. Creature Teacher and Doberluv should be more help, and I wish Brattina were around more since she's fostered so many different small dogs and is really good at this. I've always just explained to mine that the new one is family and is to be taken care of and taught and I've not had any problems - yet - but I'm generally dealing with working/herding dogs and not small dogs.

[Doberluv]

Well, I agree with Renee...to introduce them on neutral territory. It's never ever a good idea to hit your dog. You took it away, so several seconds elapsed and then you slapped it. So, not only did your dog NOT know why your were slapping it, but even if you slapped it right away, all it would do is make it associate the other dog with more negativity and make it want to attack it all the more. It does NOT teach a dog anything to hit it. But it does make your dog afraid of you and make it not trust you. If it doesn't trust you, how can it look up to you as it's leader, someone who knows what they're doing and will keep it safe? When you slap your dog, it makes it insecure in who it's leader or caretaker really is. In a pack, an alpha dog never loses it's cool and is not rough like that. It's the underlings who act like that and lose their temper as they squabble to reach a higher place in the heirarchy. An alpha is an alpha because it's just understood. They don't have to keep proving themselves. They guide, make rules, provide and are relatively calm, confident and assertive.

So, that being said, I would try enlisting the help of a friend and take one dog to the friends and then take the other. Have your friend hold one dog on a leash way on the other side of the yard. And you hold the other one on a leash on the opposite side of the yard. Have the friend walk back and forth laterally with the newcomer, not any closer. Watch your dog. If she is watching, but not reacting, praise and make a real fuss over her and give her a yummy treat. Do that several times. If she does react wildly, just calmly walk a little further away and turn her so she doesn't see the dog for a moment. Don't say anything to her or jerk her...nothing. Wait some more until she can look at the other dog without flying off the handle and again, reward lavishly. Be careful not to reward when she IS acting crazy.

Only when she is OK at that distance do you ask your friend to move in just a little closer and do the same thing....walking back and forth slowly laterally. Go through all that again. If she can't handle that distance, it's back to square one.

This may well not happen in one day or one week. You may have to do this for some time, practicing every day. I don't know what to tell you when you're both at home. You should keep them completely seperate so that one doesn't see the other and get stressed. That anxiety and stress in relation to the new dog will become a way of life for the other. So, you want to nip that way of thinking before it gets started too much.

If your dog doesn't ever seem to want to be friends, you may have to give up one of them. That is a very difficult thing to teach as far as I know. Maybe Creature Teacher will have a better plan. In fact, I'm quite sure she will.

[XTREEMMAK]

Thats good advice,
I personally train my dog and havent had any reason to slap her actually. The only time I do enforce it is if she bites when she's not supposed to. But in this case, I'll take your word for it. I've posed the same post on different dog forums and they've given me the same answer, alow them to both be on neutral grounds, and assossiate them in intervals. I've been training my dog alot latley. Out of school, and just recently really had dog training on the mind, so we're both happy lol :).

What I think I'll do is later today, take both dogs to the park and do the distant thing like you said. Inching them up foward as I go. When they reach really close, let Q-Tip sniff her for a bit (max about 30 sec) and then call her back (note that when I do call her back, I'm still with her by her side). Go back about half the distance I started from and walk forward, keeping Q-Tip sniffing the other. Most likely the new puppy isn't going to like it, neither will Q-Tip if I leave them idol for too long. I read this article that says why. States that when a puppy is introduced to an adult dog, the puppy doesnt yet know how to communicate with other dogs, for example, play bows and such. Since the puppy wont do it, this aggitates the adult dog, stressing it. They say that it's important never to confine both dogs together yet, and that you should do association sessions, as well as much individual sessions as well to help reenforce the dog.

I'll take this practice and keep you posted. I must say this observation is really exciting to me :D

[Doberluv]

When they reach really close, let Q-Tip sniff her for a bit (max about 30 sec) and then call her back (note that when I do call her back, I'm still with her by her side).

If you do that, and your dog reacts badly toward the other dog (because you won't have desensatized her yet) and then you walk her away, (reward) she'll learn that all she has to do to be taken away from this "bad" thing, is to react violently.

It is important that you don't rush and move them close together until she is calm with the greater distance and small increments thereafter. Inch, by inch and rewarding for good behavior. If you move closer and she reacts strongly, you need to go back to the distance where she was.....where she was comfortable and inch by inch again.

[joce]

Are they fixed? Some female dogs just wont tolerate others but I know it helped my husky a little when she got fixed. She still doesn't like some girl dogs but the majority she is ok with.

[Doberluv]

I've had a few dog aggressive dogs, none as severe as my Doberman. But, they were all fixed....females as well as males. I don't think it has a whole lot of bearing on it. It may have some, but there are sooooooo many causes for aggression and so many types of aggression which have nothing to do with the aggression caused by hormones. So, while it probably helps in many cases to have the dogs neutered or spayed, I don't think that's the end all.

[Barb04]

Doberluv, I just want to say well said.

[LindaRusiecki]

My female boxer (11 months old...ugh) has over the last month gotten agressive, never with other humans, but with other dogs.

Our trainer says that we should keep her on a choke collar or a pinch collar when she is introduced to other dogs. The other dog should be leashed as well. At the first sign of aggression, give the leash a quick zip and say "NO!" The dog should back down. Let them touch noses, but again, if there's aggression, correct the dog. If the dog begins to interact with the other dog gently, reward it.

Rather than slapping or hitting your dog (which will get you nowhere), our trainer told us to do what the mother dog does, a technique called "scruffing." Grab the skin on the back of your dog's neck, push the dog towards the floor, and say "NO!" or "NAUGHTY!" when it has done something wrong. This shows that you are dominant over the dog, and doesn't hurt it.

Right now, while this problem is going on, we can never have Mango off leash anywhere besides our house, backyard, or a secluded area, such as a field away from other dogs and people. If she were to attack another dog (which she has) and cause damage (thankfully hasn't happened yet) we'd be legally liable. *sigh* So we're just not going to put her in situations where she could cause damage.

[Renee750il]

{shakes head in pure disbelief}

[CreatureTeacher]

Hi Linda!

I know you're just doing what your trainer told you to do with the scruff shake and throwing the tennis ball at the crate. Have you ever considered positive dog training? There are some really excellent cooperative techniques you can use to train without using fear or intimidation. There's a link to my website in my sig...you may want to check it out. (Sorry the website's such a mess. There's a new one coming soon. :) ) Please don't think I'm being rude. We all grew up with those techniques. Positive training is relatively new. But it's effective, fun, and you will LOVE it!

If you want to learn more, please check out these books. You can find them in the library or store, and they are ABSOLUTELY worth the time! Also, please look around the training threads. We've posted a lot about the "new" sciences of behavior and training, so there's a lot to see!

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
If a Dog's Prayers Were Answered, Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller and Jean Donaldson
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

[smkie]

here is a unique approach..hows about..you treat your dog like a child..and when u feel it stiffen being unsure of a new situation..you drop your hand to reassure that all is calm..that you speak sit and stay in a firm and quiet voice..that you even hmmm...squat down and reassure your dog that you are in control and act like the owner of a dog..being the dog's leader..teaching your dog to that you are in command of the situation instead of letting the dog react first..and then u taking your cue from it? which one of you is in control????????????? I never had to do anything else but this and my dogs can go anywhere..in any situation..and be completely dependable NOT TO FIGHT< TO ALWAYS CALL OFF>>>in other words..mind me.

[LindaRusiecki]

Creature Teacher:

I wrote down the titles of the books, and will check them out.

My two dogs had me in tears every night. We got littermates, Boxers, a boy and a girl. I really love them, but every behavior problem we could imagine, they had. The trainers solved EVERYTHING (except for the aggression, which occurred after training was done), and pretty much gave me my life back. You mentioned that the tennis ball thing and the scruffing instill fear, but they worked so effectively, when treats and pets didn't. What should I be doing differently? My trainer was so helpful...but you're saying that her ways aren't effective?

What would you suggest I do about Mango's aggression if you don't think I should use a choke collar? If she's on it she walks with a perfect heel and ignores other dogs. If I try to walk her without it she nearly dislocates my arm and trys to attack. It seemed like such a great solution. What should I do differently?

Linda

[CreatureTeacher]

Is it okay if I answer you tomorrow? It's midnight here, but I'm very interested in talking to you about your kiddos. You're a brave woman for adopting two boxer pups! I don't know if I could handle that!! I love boxers--they're a wonderful breed--but I can imagine how crazy it must be with two young boxers racing around! There are a lot of things we can do to help Mango to understand what you expect of her. I've been a positive reinforcement trainer for a long time, and I know once you try it you'll never go back to your choke chains!

Promise to write more tomorrow. For now, I promised myself I'd get at least six hours of sleep tonight!

Welcome to Chazhound! :)

[LindaRusiecki]

Please do reply tomorrow. I really want to know the best way to train these guys effectively. The boy (Jefe) no longer causes any problems...he's an angel. But perhaps my trainer is using ineffective methods?

[bubbatd]

Two pups from the same litter can be a problem ...." have you read the book " How to raise a puppy you can live with " ..Rutherford and Neil ??? It answers all your questions. Good luck !!

[poeluvr]

i dont beleive in choke collars or pinch collars you have a dog to help and enjoy it not cause pain, but im not in your situation so i wont say anything else
as for treemak i dont have any suggestions but i hope all works out...,maybe if you could enroll them both in some kind of obedience school

[poeluvr]

i have read your other posts linda and i do not blame you for the choke chains, i beleive your trying to make your pups nice citizens, but your trainer kinda seems to have a harsh way of training....but im no expert and i guess if thats your last option

[LindaRusiecki]

I'll add that book to my list of must reads. Thanks.