Going Saturday to look at puppies...

[Mac'sMom]

any suggestions on what we should look for and ask? We found this breeder on breeders.net. She has a litter of 5month old papillons. Our Mackie is on the large size (13 lbs at 7 1/2 months) and we want another pap around 8 to 10 lbs. I emailed her yesterday and only asked about size, gender and for some pictures. I received her email this morning. The tri colored ( which is what we are interested in) are all male. Very cute! $550.00.

We are going to her house to see the puppies on Saturday. This is our first visit to a breeders. What are the important things I need to ask and look for. I asked her if we could bring Mac with us and she was fine with that. Your help would be greatly appreciated. We want to do this right. She sounded very nice when I spoke to her on the phone, but I know that doesn't mean anything.
Deb (Mac'sMom)

[Charliesmommy]

Hey Deb!

Does the breeder have a website you can post? I am curious why she has a litter of 5 month olds??????

[Mac'sMom]

Sorry, I messed up. They are 5 weeks old. She does not have a web site.

[bubbatd]

Wish you had the book " How To Raise A Puppy You Can Live With " - Rutherford and Neil .....tells you what to look for and how to pick the right one for you .

[Mac'sMom]

They were born on 5-12-07 and will have all shots and deworming before leaving mom.

[Charliesmommy]

Sorry, I messed up. They are 5 weeks old. She does not have a web site.

Ah, that makes more sense!

I copied this from a website that has some good info about questions to ask the breeder and red flags to look for. You will want to do some research on your breed (unless you already know) and find out about potential breed defects and make sure that the breeder has tested for them. I'm sure othere will chime in with advice! I bet's Mac's going to be so excited to have a fur brother or sister!

What are the congenital defects in this breed? The breeder who says "none" or "I don't know" is to be avoided. That's a person who's not screening for what she doesn't know about, and you don't want to pay the price for her ignorance.


A good breeder tells you every remotely possible problem in the breed, from droopy eyelids to deafness to epilepsy.


-- What steps have you taken to decrease defects in your dogs? You want to hear words like "screened" and "tested" and "certified."


In breeds with the potential for hip dysplasia - that's almost every large breed -- look for PennHIP or Orthopedic Foundation for Animals certification. These are expert, unbiased evaluators who know exactly what to look for. Insist on documentation on both parents. And their parents, too.




-- Do you have the parents on site? May I see them? This is a bit of a trick question. You should always be able to see the mother -- unless she died giving birth -- but reputable breeders often don't have the father on hand. That's because the best match for any particular dog may be owned by another breeder, and the female was sent away for breeding.


As for the mother, she may be a little anxious with strangers around her puppies, but on her own you want to see a well-socialized, calm and well-mannered dog. So, too, should be the rest of the breeder's dogs. If you don't like the temperaments of a breeder's grown dogs, what makes you think you'll get a good temperament in one of the puppies?


-- What are the good and bad points of the parents, and what titles do they have? You may be looking for a pet-quality purebred, but you still want to buy from someone who knows what top-quality examples of the breed are -- and uses such animals in a breeding program. You want to see show and working titles all over that pedigree.


It doesn't matter if you go home and throw that fine pedigree in a drawer. Recent titles on both sides of a pedigree are the sign of a breeder who's making a good-faith effort to produce healthy dogs who conform to the breed standard.


-- Where were these puppies raised? How have you socialized them? "In the house" is the best answer to the first question. You want a puppy who knows what the dishwasher sounds like, whom you don't have to peel off the ceiling when a pan drops, who has set a paw on linoleum, carpet and tile.




Environmental socialization is important, but so, too, is the intentional kind. The best breeders make sure puppies have been handled by adults of both genders and by children.


-- What guarantees do you provide? You want to see a contract explaining the breeder's responsibilities should the puppy develop a congenital ailment. In most cases, such contracts state either replacement with a new puppy or refunding of your purchase price.


The contract also states your responsibilities, such as neutering your pet. You may also be required to return the dog to the breeder if you can no longer keep him. Such language is the sign of a concerned and responsible breeder.


Read and discuss the paperwork with the breeder. The best breeders offer contracts that protect not only the buyer and seller, but also the most vulnerable part of the transaction: the puppy.

[Mac'sMom]

Thanks Kim. We're excited about seeing these puppies but are totally able to walk away if not a good breeder. She is in Converse, IN so only about 45 min. from us. I do know the mother is on site and the pictures she sent had the puppies with her son (and she also has a daughter) and they were taken in the house.

[Charliesmommy]

I'm excited for you. Getting a new puppy is the BEST so I hope this is a good breeder and it works out! Let me know how it goes!

[Mac'sMom]

I will let you know how it goes. ;)

Here is a link for the web site to the other breeder I emailed.

http://www.papillonpups4you.zoomshare.com/

This one has a litter due in July so won't be ready to leave until Sept. which would be fine. The photo of the mom (Emmy) actually looks alot like Mac. I haven't heard anything back from her yet. I asked about the size of the mom and dad. I think she also had a picture of the dad if I remember right.

[Herschel]

Have you tried sending a private message to "Laurelin"? She has a lot of experience with Papillons and might be able to help point you in the right direction.

I like Kim's list. I'm not sure if a reputable breeder would post a listing on "Breeders.net", so make sure you go in ready to walk away from some adorable puppies. Ask as many questions as you can!

If she sounds like a nice woman, that doesn't mean she is ethical.

If the puppies look healthy and happy, that doesn't mean they always will be.

If the house is clean, that doesn't tell you anything about the health of the dogs.

Etc. etc. etc.

[bubbatd]

You should be able to get a feeling on how the breeder is interacting with the pups ...at this age they should be loving her to death and she should know each one very well .. each pup should run to you when you're down on their level and call " puppy,puppy. puppy " clapping hands or patting the floor . They shouldn't show any fear . You'll be able to tell if she's socializing . Wouln't hurt to ask if she has " THE BOOK " !!

[Rosefern]

And, if this breeder doesn't work out, here's a few more that you could try...

CRYSTAL CREEK
Juanita Hull-Pollock
7105 Goldsberry RD
Battle Ground, IN 47920
765-589-8764
crystalcreek1@hughes.net

DEWDROP
Jackie Krieger
7840 Hartford Ridge
Aurora IN 47001
812-438-2095
highhorseacres@aol.com

WELCH
Jeff & Susan Welch
Indiana
jeffwelch@earthlink.net

Anybody have any experience with these breeders?

-Rosefern

[Mac'sMom]

Thanks Herschel. I talked with Laurelin when I first joined the forum, but not since. I would welcome any help she's willing to give me. My husband and I have talked about walking away Saturday even if we think she is a good breeder. It doesn't sound like any of the puppies are spoken for at this point. We don't want to rush into this. And if we decide we want one and they're gone...we'll find another one.

Do you think it would be better to have a male and a female over 2 males? We wanted a male when we got Mackie but now we really don't care, but we would like a tri color.

[Mac'sMom]

Thank you all sooo much. We really appreciate your help. I'm feeling better about this visit now.

[squirtsmom]

Hey good luck.

[bubbatd]

Where is the litter ??

[Mac'sMom]

Do you mean city & state? Converse, IN. We are going to her house.

[bubbatd]

I knew it probably was here in IN .... I just thought I might know someone in the city or town and could pick their brain . No , know no one there , but been there to auctions .

[Mac'sMom]

Her name is Darla Rennaker.

[Maxy24]

Does she show the dogs she breeds? I hope you've found the right one but be prepared to say no to adorable puppies ;) It will be well worth it in the end. I'm very glad you are trying to go about this the right way!

[bubbatd]

Anxious to know how it goes !!!

[Mac'sMom]

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again to everyone for your advise.

[Mac'sMom]

I don't know if she shows or not, but we will find out. She did say they are AKC registered. Does that really mean anything?

[bubbatd]

Basically it only shows that both parents are registered and purebred . I don't know what testing the breed should have .

[Maxy24]

She did say they are AKC registered. Does that really mean anything?

Nope. A lot of BYBs will trick buyers into buying using that because people think it is the same as showing. I'm not saying yours is a BYB I'm just saying AKC registered is not the same as being shown. The puppies parents should be Champions in the ring so you know they are the best dogs being bred for the welfare of their breed. I'm also not sure what testing needs to be done on that breed. Look for her to mention OFA and CERF screenings. Those are VERY important to make sure she is breeding the healthiest dogs for the healthiest puppies.

[Fran27]

I would be wary of both breeders - the one you're going to see and the one you posted the site of. Being AKC registered or champion sired doesn't mean anything for one. Any breeder can register their litters with the AKC, it doesn't mean they are good specimens of the breed, nor that they are healthy genetically-wise.

A breeder that posts on breeder.net and doesn't have any list for their pups when they are 5 weeks old is a big red flag. A good breeder will make sure there are people interested in the puppies beforehand. A good breeder will only breed to improve the breed, not to make money or for 'fun'.

Sure, you probably don't want a show dog. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't be very picky about who you are getting your dog from.

Good breeders will test the parents for health issues before breeding - it includes hips and eyes, plus whatever health issues the breed can have. It is very important that the testing is done. If it's not, it means that the parents could carry all kinds of genetic issues from poor breeding, and the puppies are likely to have them, too. Breeders that don't check the health of the parents before breeding just don't care that the puppies might end up suffering all their life, and I find it disgusting. And most of the breeders that post on sites like breeders.net are of that kind, ie, backyard breeders.

Another thing about backyard breeders - they don't care about whether the dog is a good specimen of the breed or not. So you could end up with a dog that doesn't look like a papillon, and doesn't have the right temperament either. Compare a show dog with a petstore puppy of the same breed, and you'll see the difference - well, it's the same with backyard breeders, who just take two dogs and breed them. Saying that the parents are of champion bloodlines, or that a friend of the family said they are good specimen of the breed doesn't prove anything either - the dogs need to be titled to make sure that they are indeed a good example of the breed.

I strongly suggest that you read all the stickies, especially this thread (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787), so you are sure to have a healthy pup.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Honestly, I would be EXTREMELY wary.

All puppies still available at 5 weeks? :rolleyes:

~Tucker

[noludoru]

How did things go? :)

[Mac'sMom]

OK, OK! You were all right. (sob sob) We walked away.

We actually spent almost an hour there. Before we left we saw 13 dogs (including the 5 puppies) and I'm not even sure that was all of them. We pretty much acted like we didn't know much and let her talk to us. And boy did she talk. She thought our Mac was great and said what a beautiful coat he had. (Yeah because it looked like her dogs are outside most of the time and were dirty and not well cared for (as far as grooming goes - they all looked well feed and loved by her and her family) The pap puppies were all she had for sale, at least right now. She made a big deal about the puppies not being ready to leave momma yet (5 weeks duh) but said maybe in another week (what?). Nothing was said about health issues at all so before we left I asked if her paps ever had eye or knee problems (which can be problems for paps) and of course she said, "Oh, no!" That was it. She owned the momma and poppa, but only had a picture of the daddy because she said he was shot by a neighbor:yikes: . They lived on a farm.

Of course the puppies were adorable. Very lively, happy, playful little things. Momma watched over them closely and was taking good care of them. A couple of them seemed to have a little cough. (Not sure how else to describe it) I've never been around puppies that young so is that normal? She had them in a plastic kiddie pool with the stuff that looked like what you put in hampster cages, a bowl of dry food and a bowl of water and a small dirty bed. Wasn't too fond of that. They pooped and peed in it while we were there and she just left them walk around in it.

We told her we were looking for a pup that would be from 8 to 10 lbs grown and she said these would be at least 8 lbs, but I doubt it. Momma certainly didn't look that big and who knows about dad from a picture. Oh, you'll like this, she said this was her third litter of paps and where did we get Mac? We told her we got him at a pet store. (Don't yell at me - I think you all knew this and i've learned alot from this forum that's why we're trying to find a good breeder) so anyway she tells how we got ripped off because one litter she had was around Chistmas so she contacted a pet store in Indy to see how much they would give her for the puppies, but they said they could only pay $200.00 and she knew they would charge at least $800 or $900 for them. Can you believe that, she actually told us she would have been willing to sell to a pet store.

Well, I've rambled enough. Needless to say we're still looking. And to all of you who want to say, I told you so...go ahead, I can take it.

[Baxter'smybaby]

aww--so sorry it was a let down--but it sure sounds like you knew what to look for/what wasn't a good situation--and that will help you when you do visit a good breeder. I wish you luck in your search.

[Mac'sMom]

Thanks!

[Maxy24]

Good for you! It's a shame how many bad breeders are out there and that most people have not the slightest idea. I mean we all get angry at the "stupid" people that buy from pet stores and horrible breeders but I mean, how are they supposed to know that they are bad, who was gonna teach them that? So it's good you joined so you'll do this right! This is the Papillon club of America site http://www.papillonclub.org/
and here is the breeders directory (it should be Indiana) http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm#INDIANA and they show three breeders. Why don't you e-mail them and see if any have pups or a litter on the way. You might have to be on a waiting list though which is always difficult (this is one reason why I will always rescue, I'm too impatient :lol-sign: ) but you'll get your pap eventually.

[Mac'sMom]

Thanks Maxy. I've looked at them before. The only thing is most want you to put money down sight unseen and we really don't want to do that. Is that common? Any suggestions?

[Zoom]

Most breeders will ask for a deposit as way to prove that you are truely interested in the pups, otherwise they run the risk of having a litter that only half has an actual home, while all the rest have to wait. That being said, most good breeders have a list of "firsts" and then usually an auxillary list of people who were willing to wait until the next litter because they wanted a dog that badly. If you throughly do your research and get to know the breeder, by the time things get around to the deposit aspect, you should be chomping at the bit for the chance to reserve a pup.

Keep in mind though that paps don't have big litters generally and you may be in for more of a wait than you'd like, but it's worth it to get the dog you want! I'm on a waiting list for an Aussie litter that won't even be bred until 2009 and I've been on it since 2006! ;)

[bubbatd]

So glad you knew what to look for .... the wading pool with shavings would have stopped me right there ! You'll find the right one . I'll check with my vets and see if any of their clients know of a good breeder . Unfortunately I don't know of any Pap owners , but will keep my eyes and ears open . Where are you in IN ??

[Maxy24]

there is also this place. It is very expensive but I don't know how much you are willing to pay or how much it usually costs. From what is listed here the place looks good but they don't have an actual website that I can find so you'll have to talk to them and see if they seem good. The page says they breed to breed standard but don't talk about championships or confirmation so I don't know if they actually show. You'll have to find that out. They say they screen for genetic diseases which sounds right but ask about what kinds of screenings they do if you speak to them. http://puppydogweb.com/kennels/papillon_kindred.htm
I'll keep looking and see if I find any more that look pretty good.

[Maxy24]

this place looks ok and I see CERF under SOME of the parents names. They are also not all champion breeding stock. I'm not sure how great they are so maybe someone else can give it a look see also and see if they look good to them http://www.braylorspapillons.com/

[Mac'sMom]

Whew! Just got back from a 2 mile walk in the park with Mackie. A little bit tired right now.

Thank you guys for all of your suggestions and help. We are willing to wait as long as it takes. We have researched other breeds. We love Mackie so much we compare every pap we see to him and none compare. lol Maxy, you have alot of patience. And Grammy (if I may call you by that name) we live in Fort Wayne. Are you in IN too?

[bubbatd]

Yes , been in Indianapolis for 9 years , before that Muncie . I'm Grammy to all !! I've got an old friend living in Ft. Wayne .... Margaret Watson . Will be looking for you ...can you give me a price range ??? Having been a breeder , I know what to look for . Not Paps per say , but good breeders as to the situation and conditions .... especially their socializing .

[Mac'sMom]

We paid $600.00 for Mackie. Would pay more for the right dog, but wouldn't mind if it was less. lol

[bubbatd]

Are you planning to show ??

[Mac'sMom]

No, just looking for a fur brother or sister Mac.

[bubbatd]

Understand . All mine were show quality and had Champion backgrounds but none of my clients showed . I will watch for CERF and OFA testing . Anything else important as to Papillons ??

[Mac'sMom]

Just size and color. We prefer tri-color or sable and we want a pap on the larger size. Mac couldn't show because he is too big. He's about 13 inches tall (shouldn't be more than 12) and he weighs 13.4 lbs at 7 1/2 months old. Mac had really big feet so we knew he would be bigger. He has actually gotten bigger than we expected.:lol-sign: He doesn't have much fringe on his ears yet and many people ask us if he is a miniture collie.

So anyway, size and color.

[Mac'sMom]

Gotta go see my dad, so signing off for now.

[bubbatd]

I contacted my Vet's Office today and they're mailing me list of owners and breeders . Said some may be out dated .

[Zoom]

Quite honestly, if you're looking for a larger end Pap and don't care about much beyond size and color, why not look at rescue?

[RD]

^^ Agree. There are a lot of great Paps in rescue and MOST are over 7-8lbs - it's rare to find a smaller-sized one in rescue for some reason.

[Maxy24]

ooo rescue, PETFINDER

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8558693

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8154704

They don't have as many near you as I expected but there are some. How far are you willing to travel (what states)?

[Mac'sMom]

I have looked at rescues. We just haven't found what we're looking for yet. We really want a puppy and so far the paps I have found are older. We have also be checking at our local shelter off and on, but so far that has not been successful either. We keep looking at these avenues too.

[LappieLover]

I hate to bust your bubble, but $500 isn't very much at all to pay for a dog that comes from a breeder that shows. Most pap breeders will expect you to pay at least $900 to $1,500 for a pet quality dog.

I agree with the others. If that sounds like an awful lot to you, you should probably consider rescue. I'm sure that you can get a puppy, you'll just have to be put on a waiting list.

Here is a link to the Pap club of america rescue: http://www.papillonclub.org/rescue/

I'd contact them and just see what they have to say. It can't hurt! :)

[Zoom]

Oh, you could also find a bunch of good Pap breeders and ask if they know anyone else who has a litter coming up or recently born, or maybe a younger dog that they just got back and need to rehome. I think the sort of dog you're wanting is slightly out of standard, so you might be able to track down a pet-quality pup out of a good breeder that way. Most Pap people (actually most good breeders) have a huge network within their breed and are up on a lot that's going on with one another.

[RD]

If you want a puppy, how can you be sure that it'll be the size you want? My small (5lb) Pap was a pretty large puppy. If a specific size is important to you, I'd reconsider wanting a pup.

I'd also like to point out that most reputable Papillon breeders do breed for conformation to the breed standard, which disqualifies dogs over 12". I'm not trying to cut down what you want in a dog, but getting a very large Papillon from a reputable breeder is not very likely. 8lbs is much more likely than 13, though.

[Mac'sMom]

Alright now. I never said $500 was too much to pay for a dog. (lappylover) And (RD) if you read my posts again I said we were looking for a pap 8 to 10 lbs. That is within breed standard. We just don't want an extremely small pap. And I do think you can tell to some degree. I was just saying that Mac is above standard, not that we looking for a pap as big or bigger than he is.
You guys are putting words in my mouth.

[Charliesmommy]

Have you had any luck finding a good breeder yet Deb?

[bubbatd]

I've got a number I'm calling tonight ...near Lafayette . I'll let you know what they have or know of .

[Beanie]

*hug MacsMom* I don't think anybody is trying to put words in your mouth, they're just trying to help you find the dog you want. => It can be REALLY hard to tell with puppies sometimes, and even with the best breeding dogs can pop out of standard. I know many breeders who had dogs that were excellent show prospects until they grew to be out of standard. It's a waiting game for them to see where the dog grows to - and these are people who KNOW the breed backwards and forwards!
I know what you mean about wanting a dog on the larger side of the standard as opposed to a small dog... but I'll tell you that Auggie is 13.5, which is on the smaller side of shelties, and I initially wanted a bigger one... but I raised Auggie from a 10 week old puppy and I love him more than anything. The size is irrelevant. =>
If you REALLY are concerned about the size due to things like children in the house or anything like that, adopting a younger dog from rescue really is a good idea. That way you just plain KNOW what you're getting. Rescues do occassionally get puppies or pretty young dogs, like 6 mo... rescue is a lot like finding a breeder and getting the right pup from a breeder, though. You have to wait for the right dog and the right match to come along, and sometimes it can be a long wait.

We just want to inform you about all the options out there and help you make the right choice. => Good luck!!

[Mac'sMom]

Thanks Grammy. That's really nice of you.

[LappieLover]

Alright now. I never said $500 was too much to pay for a dog. (lappylover)

Sorry. Maybe I misread something you wrote, or misinterpreted it. The only thing I was trying to get across to you (and obviously I did a poor job) is that $500 is actually less then half of what many breeders (in my area, anyway) will charge for a Papillon puppy.

The reason I know this is that my mom wants one in the next two years, and she asked me to do the "leg work" for her in finding a puppy. Almost all of the quality breeders I saw charged $1000 to $1,500 for a pet quality puppy with a spay/neuter contract.

Oh, I found your quote. It was regarding what you paid for Mack and you said that you wouldn't mind paying less for a dog then what you did for him. Maybe you should let us know what your price range is? (Again, I did not mean to offend).

[Mac'sMom]

LappieLover I also said we would pay more for the right puppy. I've done alot of reseach too. You are right. Good breeders ask alot of money for their puppies. And so they should. Anyway, thanks. Maybe I was misunderstood you too.

[bubbatd]

I called the number and she sounds great !! Into rescue too ! she's in her 60s and has bred for years . She should be here on Chaz .!! Right now she has a male puppy ( $500 )and a 5 yr old rescue @ $175. I told her you will call ....I'll PM you her number .

[noludoru]

oh WOW! I'm so glad you ran from THAT breeder! I've missed everything, lol.

Good luck on finding a great one, you're definitely doing your research. I hope you find an awesome pup that Mac will love. :)

[bubbatd]

If this doesn't work out for her ... this is definitely a good contact !!! She's even into Lab and Golden rescue ..... a true Chazzer at heart !

[planet molosser]

Ask how many generations of dogs they have bred.
If she has been breeding for years and has NO kennel name females for 2- more more generations something is odd.

Normal to use outside studs but not normal not to want to create your own line of PROVEN dogs..

Being proud of what you create is one sign of a good breeder.

The more generations they have the more they know about what genetic issues are in their lines. IF they claim all dogs are perfect they breed . Head for the door,. The only perfect dog is a stuffed animal.
The other list posted was perfect ..