puppy won't stop biting/nipping

[cosmo'smom]

hi, i hope someone can help me. we have a 10 week old puppy, an australian shepherd. have had him for 3 weeks, and he won't stop biting on me. i have tried the strong NO, i have tried redirecting him to something else. i have tried everything all my friends that are dog owners have suggested and nothing has worked so far. it is getting very frustrating, not to mention the multiple bruises on my legs & scratches from his teeth on my arms. i'm pretty much at my wit's end and sometimes it's very hard to control how mad i get at him. he is not as bad with my boyfriend, but still not good either. i know that he is a herder and that they nip to help control the herd, but how do i make him realize that it's not acceptable to do this to me. i hope someone can help, cause i love the little bugger, but hate the biting.
thanks

[nedim]

I think all pups bite, maybe to test their boundaries. My Peanut loves to nip at me when we play, but she is 11 months old and knows her limits. When she does get a bit rough, I look her in the eyes and say NO or DOWN, in addition to putting my hand on her nose where she cant get a hold of it. Then I look her in the eyes again and just pet her. I know it sounds a bit complicated, but it works every time.

[Saje]

There are three things you can try.

1. When he bites you yelp and cry like he's REALLY hurt you. That's how puppies tell each other that they've gotten to rough.

2. When he bites stop everything you are doing and walk away. Ignore him completely for a minute. He's doing it for attention and if he's not getting it there's not point. This does not work for ankle biters who will just follow you nipping. So....

3. Whenever if nips pick him up and put him in a safe, separate place like the bathroom. It's a puppy timeout. Don't acknowledge him while you do it. It's the same idea as the one above - don't give him the attention that he wants.

I hope one of those work.

[cosmo_mom]

hi again, i had problems posting again, had to re-register. anyway, we have tried most of what has been suggested. the biggest problem is that once he decides to start biting, he won't stop. by that i mean i can't even walk through the room as he grabs onto my pants leg & won't let go. makes it hard to ignore him. and once i get him off & say NO, he simply jumps back on me again. he does this when we are either inside or outside, and unfortunately has puts lots of holes & rips in my pants. even ruined a pair of pants that i wear to work. i know he is a puppy, but i think we really need to get this under control before we can enroll him in any sort of obedience training. so does anyone have any other suggestions?
thanks in advance

[Fran27]

My dog is 5 months now and still does it - I've also tried everything. He doesn't bite much anymore when we play (I used a spray bottle and it worked some), but basically when he get too wild he jumps at me and starts biting (especially clothes, but unfortunately sometimes he grabs what's under it too), I just turn around and ignore him. He stops eventually, but while he does it, it's NOT fun. I'm just hoping that one day he will get the hint that it's not working to get attention.

[joce]

Put your thumb on his bottom palate and press holding onto the jaw with the rest of your hand. Everytime he bites do it. It might sound mean but I don't mean for you to break the dogs jaw,just pressure so he knows your not playing. Its the only thing that worked with our husky. Our vet and trainer told us to do it,but the vet also threw in biting back(which actually consist of pinching I think)! A lot of the mouthy dogs never learned bite inhabition the way they should of and they just dont understand what they are doing. Which if you have had him three weeks I'm almost positive that is the problem. You got him at pnly seven weeks?It is a huge deal and definately something you need to take care of. If you can not correct it get ahold of a behaviorist or trainer. ANd in the future leave the up with the mom as long as possible. Never before eight. My dobes breeder kept the pups till 12 weeks. I've never had the slightest problem with him.

I had a bunch of charts that showed where to pinch but i don't think I have them anymore. The pup just doesn't understand that he is hurting you. He isn't getting bit back so he doesn't understand how hard he can play without hurting.

[Fran27]

Haha not going to work, but thanks. When my puppy is wild enough to behave that way, there is *no* way to catch him, even less hold his face!

[Doberluv]

Using pain, discomfort or force normally won't work on most dogs or if it does can create an unpleasant association with their owner. Ending all play...taking away that very valued resource is removing a payoff. Replacing your body parts with an acceptable teething type chew toy is preferrable and praising for chewing on that. They will grow out of it when teething is over and if you give NO payoff for that behavior. Any attention is still attention, even doing things unpleasant with your hands, making noises, talking to them, shouting at them....it's all attention and a payoff. Seperate yourself from the pup the moment he starts biting you. Give another toy and walk away. When you see him chewing on that, immediately praise him and even give a treat.

[joce]

It isn't normal play though and it may not end with teething. It sounds like the pup never learned bite inhibition. This can cause huuuge problems in dogs later on. This is why people get biters an growlers when they are older. They will associate you with pain just as much as they would there littermates or mother. If you can't do it go to a behaviorist. I think you said this was a shepard. That could be a huge problem on your hands oin a couple years.


And you don't do it for pain really, but discomfort.

[cosmo_mom]

yes, he is an australian shepherd. and we are trying to get this under control sooner rather than later. and i guess out of ignorance, we really didn't realize that he should not have been let go so young, but that's too late now. we'll try some of the suggestions, will try to be more consistent with the ignoring, and the time out. we have a baby gate that we can use to separate him from us. hopefully, if we are more consistent we will start to see a difference. i know he is smart, he learned to sit after just a few trys.

[Saje]

The third thing I suggested for you would work. You have to be consistent about it. As Doberluv suggested your grabbing him and saying No or even just saying No is giving him the attention he wants and therefore rewarding him.

[showpug]

Don't think for one moment that this biting habit has to be "under control" before you can start obedience classes! Go now and get your puppy started! That is what the instructors are there for and they understand puppies. If you put all of your focus on this problem and wait for obedience classes then you will miss out on the "window" to get your puppy properly socialized with other dogs and strangers. Biting they usually grow out of, but a fearful or under socialized dog is a bigger and more dangerous habit to break!! Good luck and don't feel like you wont be accepted at puppy training school...problems like yours are what keep these people employeed. They will be happy to help you. Obedience classes will also help build respect in your puppy towards you. It helps them realize that you call the shots. Give it a try, you have nothing to loose, and everything to gain! :)

[Doberluv]

It isn't normal play though and it may not end with teething

Why do you say it isn't normal play? This is a 10 week old baby we're talking about, isn't it? Of course he hasn't learned bite inhibition yet. That's what we're talking about teaching him.

If there is consistancy with all who are interacting with this dog, the whole family....consistancy in removing the payoff for biting, this behavior will cease, not over night because it is normal for puppies to do this. But it is the "law" of animal behavioral science that any behavior will be repeated when there is a motivator present. Remove the motivator and the behavior will extinguish itself. It really doesn't matter what behavior or "brand" of puppy chewing/biting there is. It's a universal concept that most professional trainers impliment in training animals. The trick is....make sure you're recognizing what are motivators. We sometimes think we're not giving a payoff, when we actually are.

[Barb04]

We found with Kona that if giving her another object besides our hand to bite didn't stop her, we put her in the kitchen with gates for 10 - 15 minutes. Then she was allowed out. If she started again, she went back in the kitchen (had toys in the kitchen also to bite on). This helped. We also found that Kona has a lot of energy after getting up from sleeping so that's when she's more likely to bite. We learned to exercise/play with her a lot to burn off the energy and calm her down.

[joce]

Bite inhibition is how hard to bite not "just dont bite". A dog should already have bite inhibition when it leaves its mother and siblings. There was a dog in my first obedience class that never learned and he would just bite as hard as he could on any of the dogs whenever. Just playing(his version of it) he put a hole in another dogs ear. They kicked him out of the class and I dont think the lady ever took him to a behaviorist.

this is not normal behavior if the pup has no bite inhibition. If it does then its no big deal,but it sounds like the pup was taken to early. A dog with no bite inhibition will always bite to hard or to much. That means no playing with other dogs because why is it fare to them to get bit that hard. It is in no way the pups fault though. It just never learned. You'd also never want it around kids. Kids and dogs play but this dog won't understand how hard it is chewing or biting.

You can not just teach this dog to never put its mouth on anything. There will be times when it wants to play and it needs to learn how much is to much. I really wish the first trainer i worked with had a website but I don't even think I have the guys number anymore. I did hear recently that some shelters automatically euthenize pups taken too early though because of it. It is not a little deal.


"Any dog, no matter how stable of temperament, can be pushed into a
position where they feel they must bite to defend themselves. The
difference between the dog that administers a good hard pinch to the
tormenting six year old human and the dog that rips the six year
old's face off is bite inhibition."
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt
Another website says it needs learned by four months but every trainer or behaviorist I've talked to said before leaving the mom.

"A dog's ability to control the force of his biting is called "bite inhibition." It's a critically important skill that every puppy needs to learn, the earlier the better. At first, they don't know their own strength nor how sharp their little teeth really are. Puppies learn to control the force of their biting from the reactions of their mothers and littermates during play and especially play-fighting."
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bite2.html

A lot of these are just the yelp and back away but that did not work with my husky. If it works for you great,but just find something that works :)

[showpug]

I think the whole "bite inhibition" subject may be getting blown way out of proportion with this pup. If he left his mom at 7 weeks, that's not that young-we are talking a weeks difference from what is considered "normal." I do however agree that 8 weeks of age or older is best for a new pup to go to it's new home for MANY REASONS. I have had pups come home anywhere from 5 weeks (way too young!!!!) to 11 weeks. They all nipped and bit at us for a while. We taught them manners and how to behave and NEVER have had a dog that bites us or other dogs too hard in it's adult life. I think some of this negative talk about euthanizing pups at the humane society that have this problem is NOT what this puppy's owner needs to hear right now. It is NORMAL for puppies to bite and nip and it's our job to teach them that puppy/dog teeth are NEVER ok on human skin. Be persistant and stay calm. Take this pup to training and your pup will most likely outgrow this behavior and lead a normal adult life. :) Most puppy classes will allow your pup to play with other puppies and they will make good teachers for each other---the earlier the better!!!!!

[Saarloos Wolfhound]

Puppies in general have a very strong need to chew, some more than others. However, it needs to be controlled. But be sure you are providing a proper outlet for chewing, such as gumabones, etc. as you work on controlling the problem chewing.

I know that the technique, when your puppy clamps down, let out a very loud YELP in imitation of a hurt puppy to try and discourage him/her from biting.

It's helpful if you could enroll in a puppy class designed especially for young puppies in order to get the proper guidance, because it's sometimes difficult for a novice trainer to recognize when aversives should be escalated. If you are reading the puppy wrong, increasing aversives could actually make the problem worse instead of better.

Hope this helps :)

[joce]

This could be normal pup behavior and i hope it is but I'm just saying what i had to go through with my dog. I can't say if its whats wrong because i have never seen the dog. Don't ignore it is all I want to get across. If you think its a problem get it fixed. The pup is young so it is doable. I'm not going to say its easy when its not. We had to get a trainer/behaviorist to fix it and you may too. If its jut the puppy being a puppy then he should grow out of it.

[cosmo_mom]

hi again. read thru all the posts, and just to clarify, my puppy is in no way attacking me. he is just biting in play, even if i am not playing at the moment. we had a good day yesterday though, he played alot with myself and my boyfriend and seemed a little better about trying to bite my pants leg. what usually happens is when he bites my pants leg, he sometimes gets some skin underneath, and that is why i have such a problem cause he leaves little bruises ( i do happen to bruise very easily, just a little pinch is all it takes) anyway, the training classes around here won't enroll pups until rabies shots have been given. and he will be getting that in the next couple of weeks. and he has already been socialized with other dogs/puppies as well as lots of people and he is not aggressive, just very playful and nippy. we have started putting him in "time out" when playtime is over if he is still acting this way, so hopefully with some consistency, we'll see improvement. thanks for all the suggestions & i'll keep you updated. by the way, he was exactly 10 weeks old yesterday.

[Mollydog]

yes, he is an australian shepherd. and we are trying to get this under control sooner rather than later. and i guess out of ignorance, we really didn't realize that he should not have been let go so young, but that's too late now. we'll try some of the suggestions, will try to be more consistent with the ignoring, and the time out. we have a baby gate that we can use to separate him from us. hopefully, if we are more consistent we will start to see a difference. i know he is smart, he learned to sit after just a few trys.


First let me suggest that the dog needs to exercise more a tired dog is going to be less bitty in my experience. A well-exercised dog is a dog that is more likely to display better manners.

Next if he is not letting you ignore him then I suggest once he bites you make a hurt noise, and then place him in isolation for a 15 min. let him out if he does it again place him back in isolation. Let him associate that biting makes his people go away and not want to play with him. The reward will be that if he's playing with you and he doesn't bite he gets to keep playing. Just stick tough to it. Remember he must view that there is NO tolerance for this behavior. If he thinks that sometimes he may be able to get by with it he will try.

Most puppies bit naturally. They would bite their litter mates in play and will be ignored if they play to hard. This is how they learn about their mouths and what they can do with them and what is ok to bite. I see you said that he was taken away to young from which means he didn't get the time with his mother and litter mates to understand what biting means or what level it is expectable. Most of us say no level is expectable and that dogs should learn never to place teeth on skin but that depends on what you plan to train the dog for.

Keep us updated on your progress. GOOD LUCK.

[oriondw]

When he bites, wrap your fingers around his lip. He will bite his own lip and thats not fun.

If he continues to bite, take 2 fingers and gently insert them down their mouth. Noth far enough to cause vomiting but further then comfortable.

Just show him that biting family is not fun and is not accepted.

[spudy]

put a bitter tast on where every the puppys biting at and he well stop



any thing the dog does not like

[Doberluv]

Why does everyone think you have to use pain, discomfort, intimidation to train a tiny, baby pup????????? He doesn't know anything. And his gums are already painful from teething.

I have had and trained pups for about 40 years and have never ever had to use these aversives. THIS IS NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR. They are teething. They are practicing for when they grow up and have to hunt. (in the wild) It is play. This learning is a gradual process. Why teach your dog to distrust and fear you when it comes to play with you?????????? Why associate yourself with pain and a rotten time to the pup????
Don't you want to represent a leader who the pup trusts and looks up to? You CAN teach the pup to get over this WITHOUT harsh or negative consequences.

Don't give a payoff (fun, treats, attention, affection) while the pup is biting you. Remove yourself from his area.

Give a payoff when the dog is NOT biting or chewing you. Give attention, affection, fun, treats when he is displaying desireable behavior.

Give him an alternative to chew and bite, a teething toy, something cold to relieve his painful gums.

Give it some time. This does not stop overnight.

Let your puppy be a puppy. Don't ruin his spirit by causing him pain or fear. He'll never develop an exuberant desire to learn if you dampen his spirit.

[showpug]

Have to say the I agree with Doberluv :) All puppies do this and they outgrow it. It's one thing if the pup was biting like this at 6 months or more, but you never hear about that do you? Nope, because they OUTGROW IT!! :)

[Barb04]

Well said Doberluv. I got similar advice from Emma which has helped me with Kona.

[oriondw]

Why does everyone think you have to use pain, discomfort, intimidation to train a tiny, baby pup????????? He doesn't know anything. And his gums are already painful from teething.

I have had and trained pups for about 40 years and have never ever had to use these aversives. THIS IS NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR. They are teething. They are practicing for when they grow up and have to hunt. (in the wild) It is play. This learning is a gradual process. Why teach your dog to distrust and fear you when it comes to play with you?????????? Why associate yourself with pain and a rotten time to the pup????
Don't you want to represent a leader who the pup trusts and looks up to? You CAN teach the pup to get over this WITHOUT harsh or negative consequences.

Don't give a payoff (fun, treats, attention, affection) while the pup is biting you. Remove yourself from his area.

Give a payoff when the dog is NOT biting or chewing you. Give attention, affection, fun, treats when he is displaying desireable behavior.

Give him an alternative to chew and bite, a teething toy, something cold to relieve his painful gums.

Give it some time. This does not stop overnight.

Let your puppy be a puppy. Don't ruin his spirit by causing him pain or fear. He'll never develop an exuberant desire to learn if you dampen his spirit.

I dont know why, but i have hard time believing you have trained puppies for over 40 years. Maybe miniture poodle puppies :)
I have never heard the theory of teething for reason to practice hunting. I always though it was to set in their teeth and to relieve the pain.

There are different means to ends. You like the slow way. Some people like fast way. Nothing wrong with either.

My pup got the idea of people bad, toys good really fast without any excruciating pain ( biting his own gum isnt that). And no he is not afraid of me.


If you dont believe in using negative reinforcement, fine. I fail to see how you tell the pup the behavior is undesirable by simply avoiding it. I have little experience with small dogs, but dogs with already low to non-existant bite inhibition have to learn early on that biting is NOT ok. If you dont teach them you're just asking for more trouble later on.
;)

[YorkieLover]

Well I'm sorry but I have to agree with doberluv on this one. We also went through the puppy biting stage and tried the yelping, tried the yelling "no", tried switching a toy for our hands, and the only thing that worked was leaving the room and getting a way from her. When I came back if she did it again I would "no bite" and walk away again, trust me it didn't take her very long to figure out if she bites all over me when I say enough I'm going to walk away. Dogs are smarter than we think, I know she is.

[Saje]

If you dont believe in using negative reinforcement, fine. I fail to see how you tell the pup the behavior is undesirable by simply avoiding it. I have little experience with small dogs, but dogs with already low to non-existant bite inhibition have to learn early on that biting is NOT ok. If you dont teach them you're just asking for more trouble later on.
;)

Very few people on this forum like negative reinforcement training and I certainly do not want to promote it.

Doberluv has proven that she experienced with dogs over and over with her insightful posts and helpful advice.

Teaching them not to bite does take a long time. It's not something that you should expect to happen overnight and it works in conjunction with them outgrowing it.

[oriondw]

Very few people on this forum like negative reinforcement training and I certainly do not want to promote it.

Doberluv has proven that she experienced with dogs over and over with her insightful posts and helpful advice.

Teaching them not to bite does take a long time. It's not something that you should expect to happen overnight and it works in conjunction with them outgrowing it.

I was joking about 40 years and small dogs ;)

I dont doubt the credentials, i just think there are diferent ways of doing things.

She made it sound like negative reinforcement is something cruel, which it is not

[Doberluv]

First off...I'm old as dirt. So 40 years isn't a really long time.

Second: I did quite a bit of study of animal behavior in college and trained dogs and horses, not professionally. And I'm not an expert. And I have lots more to learn which I hope to learn from some real trainers here like CT and another on another board. But I have had good success with dogs and horses. No Miniature Poodles yet.

Third: I meant that the dog has teething pain. (just like baby people) And in addition to that, the puppy play, biting, chewing, jumping, yapping, stalking is all practice for hunting later on.

In the animal behavior schooling I remember and one thing I learned as I obsessed over reading for the past few years, I mean obsessive compulsive disorder....like at least 8 hours a day reading...is that studies have shown how all living things learn or will repeat a behavior when there's something in it for them. They will work better for those ends than they will to avoid punishment. They will turn out happier, better adjusted emotionally and indeed, smarter. That's because it makes them THINK. It makes them problem solve. They then, can apply what they learn in one context to another. It will make learning snowball. This is diametrically opposed to dominating a dog and intimidating it into compliance. No, all negative consequences are not mean and vicious. That is not the entire point.

When they train dolphins or killer whales, do you think they can punish them? Would squeezing their snout closed bother them or slapping them around? No, so they use all "happy" training, nothing harsh or nasty... just reward. Did you ever see them perform at Sea World? Pretty decent tricks and training, I'd say.

The thing is that you don't have to resort to pinching, yanking, squeezing, scruffing, squirting with water, holding their muzzles closed, sticking your fingers down their throats, making them bite their own tongues to TEACH THEM TO STOP BITING. These are babies. It is not necessary to be freaking them out. What is it that so many have such a reluctance to try a method which works but is gentle? People are successful all over the world with this type of training. It is really nothing new at all. It's based on priciples of operant and classical conditioning, among other studies. It's just making a sort of re- emergence lately.

Did anyone see the horse wisperer?

Creature Teacher put up an excellent list of books on training. Where was that now? I'll put it here when I come across it.

Trying to find a quick fix in training dogs will do nothing but backfire later. There is no quick fix. To train is to have patience and to learn is to absorb things one by one. A baby doesn't run and shoot baskets before it can crawl.

Teaching a child to do fractions comes by showing them and encouraging them, praising them when they get it. They do not learn by slapping, scruffing, pinching, squirting or berating.

[Saje]

I've seen the Horse Whisperer and read the book. I own the dvd and the book. Actually I've read all three of Nicholas Evans books and the second one, The Loop, is even better! And I loved the Horse Whisperer. That was a long movie though and I think it takes a certain kind of person to watch it. I know some of my friends didn't appreciate it the same way.

[Doberluv]

Wasn't it wonderful? Yes, quiet minds, quiet hands. (that's not from the horse wisperer. That's my own little quote for the day.) LOL.

[Doberluv]

Thank you Saje for your kind words.

Barb and Yorki....I'm so glad your little furpals got onto it. You treated them fairly and they wanted to learn.

Showpug, I agree with you. A lot of it has to do with maturing with a little help and guidance from us. It really doesn't need to be such a big deal....this puppyhood.

[Saje]

It was wonderful. And Scarlette Johanssen is great. she's really... blossomed!

All scarlette's are wonderful I think. ;)

[CreatureTeacher]

Okay, this is going to get long and preachy. :) I probably don't need to add that Doberluv has my complete backing in this case. I also get extremely frustrated (although I do my very best to take it out in my evening exercises) with people taking the "easy way out" with punishment-based training.

Animal behavior is hard to understand; it's simpler to just use aversive consequences to punish behaviors than it is to learn and comprehend the reasons behind behaviors and treat them with an effective positive solution. It was years before the "DogMind" finally clicked with me. Training effectively takes time, effort, empathy, and a lot of brain twisting to see things from the subject's point of view. That's why people ask trainers to help them. We spend 24 hours a day trying to think like our subjects, and to see through their eyes. But then of course we're competing with people who call themselves "trainers" and are really just abusers. They'll beat your dog into submission and charge you for it. They've had us all fooled for years; people who trained without punishment 50 years ago were either magicians or whack-jobs. Now that there's solid ethological evidence to support positive training, why are folks still so stuck on using aversive consequences? Probably because we don't want to acknowledge that it's easier to let our frustration and irritation out on a dog who won't fight back than it is to use that towering intellect we're so convinced we've got. Smacking a dog with a newspaper makes us feel big and in control. Stopping to think about whether we'd like to be smacked with a newspaper never enters into it. Dogs are a socially acceptable outlet for our emotions, good and bad.

But why would a compassionate person, claiming to love their dog, claiming that, "he's like family", do things that cause a dog to be afraid, uncomfortable, or in pain when we know there's a better way? We've developed an entire science to understand animal behavior and learning. We've shown conclusively that animals that learn through positive reinforcement are quicker and more receptive to learning than animals that learn through punishment and aversive consequences. We've developed concrete methods and rules that govern the principles of positive reinforcement in behavior modification. We've applied these methods successfully and praise the people who use them as brilliant teachers of animals.

There is no longer any excuse, short of ignorance, laziness, and disinterest, to use punishment on an animal. We know better now. And those of us who don't know better are obliged to educate themselves. Punishment is cruel, because it has been rendered obsolete in training. If it was our only choice, if it was the only way, it would be an unfortunate necessity. But there is a choice.

Think about this: You've got a whip in your hand and popsicles in the freezer, and your child is in front of the TV wiping boogers on your new carpet. You can use the whip now to punish the undesirable behavior, or you can get off the couch and go to the freezer and get a popsicle, and come allllll the way back to the couch and use the popsicle to reward a desirable behavior (i.e. wiping boogers on a kleenex instead). Do you whip the kid? It'll stop him from putting boogers on your carpet, right? Then why not? Because the freezer isn't actually that far away; because you don't want to cause someone you love unnecessary pain for something as silly as boogers on the carpet; because you feel empathy for the kid; because the kid is just doing what kids do; because you can get the same result with the popsicle. The difference is in how much you actually care about the person you love, and how much effort you're willing to put into teaching them in a humane manner. You can whip, but your relationship will suffer. Positive reinforcement strengthens relationships, and enhances mutual respect and understanding.

I've trained with several different methods. I was taught what most of us grew up with; leash corrections, push on his butt to teach him to sit, rub his nose in it, squeeze his toes or knee his chest when he jumps on you. I began training professionally out of a sincere love of all things canine and because I was absolutely intrigued by behavior. I started out with what I knew. Then I learned about positive reinforcement, and mixed it with punishment training. To my delight, my subjects' learning sped up. As I worked with dogs and learned to really listen to them, I realized that the punishment was only holding us back, tangibly in training but also emotionally. I'd read about the "trainer's dance", people working so well with animals that they can feel the connection in their heads. I badly wanted the dance to come to me. So I just took that last little step and left all the bitter apple, choke chains, and muzzles behind. And again, learning sped up. Suddenly my subjects were geniuses and prodigies, every one.

Positive training is faster, more effective, more humane, and much more fun than punishment-based training. It does wonders for relationships and never fails to amaze those who try it. It's really a modern scientific miracle. It baffles me that some people consider it stupid or ineffective, and it worries me that they aren't willing to learn why it works and how to use it. If we're going to call ourselves compassionate and enlightened, we're going to have to start walking the walk. The way we treat our animals, those who rely on us completely and trust us wholeheartedly, tells more about ourselves than the way we treat each other.

[Saje]

Wow. You always say the right thing Emma! That was perfect. :D
Here's your star:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-039.gif

[CreatureTeacher]

Hooray I got a star!! :D

That was all I was really after, you know. ;)

[Saje]

LOL Yeah I know. :D

[Doberluv]

Creature Teacher's not a preacher,
She's enlightened. Don't be frightened,

Make yourselves and your doggies happy,
show them it's good not to be snappy.

Show them the way with kindness and clarity,
You'll be glad when fear and pain is a rarity.

Tee hee hee.

[Saje]

ha ha ha that's cute. How clever!

[Saje]

You wanted a star too didn't you? ;) Here it is:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-039.gif

[CreatureTeacher]

Aww, I was blushing until I realized it was all for the star. :D

[Doberluv]

CT:

May I have your permission to copy your excellent essay to another message board?

[CreatureTeacher]

Oh dear, I didn't mean it to be an essay. :eek:

By all means! Link for me so I can see! :)

[Doberluv]

Who me??? Did I get a gold star too? Yeah! Thanks! You didn't know I was a po. Woops... You didn't know it. I was a poet.

[Doberluv]

Oh, you mean, put the link to the message board?

[CreatureTeacher]

Please!

[Saje]

Yup you got a star. I have elected myself a star giver. :rolleyes:

[Doberluv]

Thanks Saje.

Here's the link Emma:

http://www.globalpaw.com/showthread.php?p=59348#post59348

[Saje]

You're a mod there! :D

[CreatureTeacher]

This is just a hop, skip, and jump from my own DVD! :D

[opokki]

A dog should already have bite inhibition when it leaves its mother and siblings.


this is not normal behavior if the pup has no bite inhibition. If it does then its no big deal,but it sounds like the pup was taken to early. A dog with no bite inhibition will always bite to hard or to much. That means no playing with other dogs because why is it fare to them to get bit that hard. It is in no way the pups fault though. It just never learned. You'd also never want it around kids. Kids and dogs play but this dog won't understand how hard it is chewing or biting.


Its true that puppies learn bite inhibition from their siblings but they also need to learn bite inhibition from humans. A bite that would be considered "appropriate" between two playing puppies would likely to be quite painful when applied on human skin. Our skin is more sensitive to sharp puppy teeth so now the puppy needs to learn to inhibit its bites when dealing with us overly sensitive humans.

[opokki]

If you dont believe in using negative reinforcement, fine. I fail to see how you tell the pup the behavior is undesirable by simply avoiding it. I have little experience with small dogs, but dogs with already low to non-existant bite inhibition have to learn early on that biting is NOT ok. If you dont teach them you're just asking for more trouble later on.
;)

They learn that biting is not okay when biting causes a good thing (you) to go away. The loud "Ouch!" marks the inappropriate behavior, the human ending the play session and leaving the room is the punishment. The puppy learns to use a softer mouth during play to keep the play session from ending.

[juliefurry]

Australian Shepards have a major herding instinct though. Even as a pup they want to herd. As an adult they will try to herd everything (you, your children, other animals). My childhood friend had an Aussie and it would nip and bark and herd us all over the place. Maybe try obedience and agility to get your pup interested in other things (and tire him out more too).

[bubbatd]

Any good breeder starts the "no bite" on humans when it begins. I started when grooming the young pups every day. When they started to get "mouthy" I'd do the puppy yelps.... if that didn't work , I'd move on to lip bite.... when they released I'd hold muzzle gently and say " no bite" ..... then praise. This was before 8 weeks old. I really feel sorry for the pups and owners who didn't have this very early training. It takes weeks to undo what could have been solved in a day or two .

[BigDog2191]

They learn that biting is not okay when biting causes a good thing (you) to go away. The loud "Ouch!" marks the inappropriate behavior, the human ending the play session and leaving the room is the punishment. The puppy learns to use a softer mouth during play to keep the play session from ending.

I hear this a lot and in my experience it doesn't do anything.

I used to say, "Ow, ow, ow, ow.." real fast and low and then my Rock would being licking.

This happens sometimes but not all the time, at times he just ignores it. I'm still working on the nipping thing myself.

[Renee750il]

Different dogs respond differently, DoggyDaddy. Rocky licking you is kind of a funny halfway between "I'm sorry if I hurt you" and "I really, really, really, want your attention and it's SOOOOOO hard not to nip!"

Been there, done that, lol! Shiva was the WORST! She's channeled her desire to nip into grooming . . . okay, but every now and then she accidentally (I think) pinches the bejeebers out of you :eek:

[oriondw]

They learn that biting is not okay when biting causes a good thing (you) to go away. The loud "Ouch!" marks the inappropriate behavior, the human ending the play session and leaving the room is the punishment. The puppy learns to use a softer mouth during play to keep the play session from ending.


They learn that when they bite you go away. When the dog is around 1.5-2 years old and is challanging you for position in the family, what do you think he will do?

Once again this is coming from experiences with very serious breeds. Small and submisive breeds need not apply.

[Doberluv]

We're talking about puppy nipping, not another behavior problem of an older dog challenging his owner. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm quite sure that the poster has every intention of handling her dog in a sensible way, otherwise she wouldn't have come here and asked for help.

If we catch a cold, do we all run around like a chicken with our heads off, frantically worrying that we've got a cold, but now we're destined to have pneumonia? Ok....rotten analogy. How 'bout this? We have a pup who peed on the carpet once or twice. Do we think, "Oh no! This pup is going to be an adult who will be peeing all over the carpet."(?) No, we figure that by the time the pup is older and we've had time to show it, it's had time to learn, that it will be peeing outside. Why else would anyone ever get a puppy?

Pretty much all puppies nip. Do they all turn out to be vicious, challenging rejects? And the ones that do bite, growl or challenge their owner, I can almost guarantee that simply not teaching bite inhibition in and of itself wasn't the cause. There are multitudes of reasons...a whole underlying thing, an attitude and handling of the dog. One facet in and of itself isn't usually the culprit. I have every confidence that this puppy will learn just fine how to stop nipping. It really isn't a monumental problem. It's normal and shouldn't be made into such a big deal.

I really don't think freaking out the original poster by putting worry into her head that her normal, nipping puppy is soon going to be backing her into a corner, viciously growling and controlling the household is productive. That's kind of.....way out there.

[oriondw]

We're talking about puppy nipping, not another behavior problem of an older dog challenging his owner. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm quite sure that the poster has every intention of handling her dog in a sensible way, otherwise she wouldn't have come here and asked for help.

If we catch a cold, do we all run around like a chicken with our heads off, frantically worrying that we've got a cold, but now we're destined to have pneumonia? Ok....rotten analogy. How 'bout this? We have a pup who peed on the carpet once or twice. Do we think, "Oh no! This pup is going to be an adult who will be peeing all over the carpet."(?) No, we figure that by the time the pup is older and we've had time to show it, it's had time to learn, that it will be peeing outside. Why else would anyone ever get a puppy?

Pretty much all puppies nip. Do they all turn out to be vicious, challenging rejects? And the ones that do bite, growl or challenge their owner, I can almost guarantee that simply not teaching bite inhibition wasn't the cause. There are multitudes of reasons...a whole underlying thing.

I really don't think freaking out the original poster by putting worry into her head that her normal, nipping puppy is soon going to be backing her into a corner, viciously growling and controlling the household is productive. That's kind of.....way out there.

I think we're talking about 2 different things :)

[Doberluv]

Oh Whew!!!! I thought I was on the wrong thread. Yeah...we must be. LOL.

[Doberluv]

You're a mod there!

Yup Saje....and a super one at that. LOL! :cool:

[CreatureTeacher]

They learn that when they bite you go away. When the dog is around 1.5-2 years old and is challanging you for position in the family, what do you think he will do?

Once again this is coming from experiences with very serious breeds. Small and submisive breeds need not apply.
"Serious breeds" don't have any different social understanding than "non-serious" ones. Dogs are dogs, and their behavior is dictated by very clear social rules. Every dog is different, true, but they all have very basic similarities. The "I-have-to-beat-my-dog-'cause-he's-big" training method is no more effective or intelligent than the whip on the booger-wiper. People who purposefully cultivate an adverserial relationship with their dog--covincing themselves that it's a Kill-Or-Be-Killed battle of wills--just aren't willing to admit their ignorance of their dogs' behavior and motivations. Notions like this are antiquated and outdated, and will do nothing but damage your relationship with your dog. If you educate yourself on the subject of canine social behavior, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.dogsday.8k.com/custom.html
Read the second article down for a beginning look at the way canine social structure actually functions.

[oriondw]

"Serious breeds" don't have any different social understanding than "non-serious" ones. Dogs are dogs, and their behavior is dictated by very clear social rules. Every dog is different, true, but they all have very basic similarities. The "I-have-to-beat-my-dog-'cause-he's-big" training method is no more effective or intelligent than the whip on the booger-wiper. People who purposefully cultivate an adverserial relationship with their dog--covincing themselves that it's a Kill-Or-Be-Killed battle of wills--just aren't willing to admit their ignorance of their dogs' behavior and motivations. Notions like this are antiquated and outdated, and will do nothing but damage your relationship with your dog. If you educate yourself on the subject of canine social behavior, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.dogsday.8k.com/custom.html
Read the second article down for a beginning look at the way canine social structure actually functions.

1. Since when is shaking a scruff gently and letting the pup bite it self is considred "beat my dog". No where in the thread have i stated that I would beat my dog. I never have and never will lay a finger on him.

2. You want to teach me on how my dog acts? How many Caucasians have you owned again? He gets praised for good behavior and corrected for bad and thats how it works. He understands quickly the undesired behavior and does not repeat it. Not because of fear but because I told him that the behavior is undesirable and he respect my decisions.

3. You're really sure this will damage the relation between me and my dog? I dont know, but i dont notice the fear in his eye's when i see his face is running toward me wagging his tail and jumping from excitement. I dont see his fear when he performs commands with with eager quickness. And i dont see fear when he stays out of the way of danger because i thought him that. I dont see any fear when he is protecting me, my family and my property.

4. How do you expect a dog to know whats right and whats wrong by ignoring the behavior?

5. I assume you are also against spanking little children and against punishment in schools? You like to ignore the undesirable behavior, you dont like ever correcting a puppy, good for you.

[Doberluv]

How do you expect a dog to know whats right and whats wrong by ignoring the behavior?

I expect the dog to know because it's been proven in behavioral science studies time and time again that by ignoring...or not giving a reinforcer to a certain behavior, that behavior will self extinguish. Furthermore, given an alternative to that behavior....showing the dog what you DO want and giving a positive reinforcer for that behavior will dramatically increase the liklihood of the dog repeating that behavior.

[opokki]

They learn that when they bite you go away. When the dog is around 1.5-2 years old and is challanging you for position in the family, what do you think he will do?

Once again this is coming from experiences with very serious breeds. Small and submisive breeds need not apply.

Its not the same thing. These would be completely different contexts with completely different motivations. Puppy bites too hard, fun ends. Even if as an adult the dog tries to "challenge" a family member by biting his bite will be soft because he has learned bite inhibition as a puppy!

[opokki]

I hear this a lot and in my experience it doesn't do anything.

I used to say, "Ow, ow, ow, ow.." real fast and low and then my Rock would being licking.

This happens sometimes but not all the time, at times he just ignores it. I'm still working on the nipping thing myself.

Have you read Ian Dunbars atricle on teaching bite inhibition?
http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

[opokki]

2. You want to teach me on how my dog acts? How many Caucasians have you owned again? He gets praised for good behavior and corrected for bad and thats how it works. He understands quickly the undesired behavior and does not repeat it. Not because of fear but because I told him that the behavior is undesirable and he respect my decisions.

He understands based on learning theory not because he respects your decisions. How did you tell him that the behavior was undesirable? With corrections. His behavior caused negative consequences and he learned to avoid these consequences by not repeating that behavior. When a negative consequence is applied to a specific behavior it decreases the chances of that behavior reoccuring. It has little to do with "respect" and alot to do with avoidence.



4. How do you expect a dog to know whats right and whats wrong by ignoring the behavior?


I agree with Doberluv...its called extinction. Dogs don't learn right from wrong its more like safe vs. unsafe to them.
You can also teach an incompatible behavior to replace the undesirable behavior. For instance, Natalie used to jump all over the back door when it was time to go outside. I taught her to sit (incompatible with jumping) at the door instead. I did this by giving her the cue "sit" before I would open the door on the first day only. The days following I did'nt give any cues but simply stood at the door and waited for her to sit. It took her a few minutes to figure out what to do but she has remembered ever since. Her jumping was no longer reinforced because the door was not opening and her sitting at the door was reinforced because the door would open once she was sitting down. I used this same method to teach her to sit to greet me rather than jump all over me when I return home. It worked, it stuck with her and she learned not to jump up on the door or on me and I did'nt have to use any corrections at all. I simply showed her what I wanted her to do and reinforced her for doing it while ingnoring any undesirable behavior to ensure that it was no longer reinforced.

[Doberluv]

Exactly Opokki! Isn't it fun too? I love doing that.... Starting out with a command and then eliminating the command so that a particular behavior becomes automatic. We do that for automatic sits and other things.

I did the same thing for "wait" at the door in order to go out. I'd open the door and the dog would charge to go out. I'd quickly beat him to it and close the door before he got to it. I'd open the door and again, he'd go forward and I'd close the door. It only took a few repititions for him to figure out he better sit and wait until I gave his familiar release word. I wouldn't open it until he sat. After he got it down pretty well, I added the command "sit,wait" because I didn't want to ask him to sit and wait if he was going to break the sit. So, I just skipped the command at first and let him figure it out on his own, which he did.

Did the same thing with his dog food bowl...didn't hold him back or strenly tell him anything. I'd only tell him sit/wait and pick up the bowl if he didn't wait. After a few times of that, he figured it out ALL BY HIMSELF that if he wants to eat, he needs to wait for the release word, "OK."

Same thing with putting his collar on. He loves to get his collar on because it means walkies. LOL. (But I want him to sit and hold still while I put it on.) Now I don't have to ask for a sit. I can say nothing...just stand there with the collar or for fun, sometimes I say, "what do we do?" LOL. He knows what he needs to do to get the collar on and go out for a walk. He figured it out by himself. I didn't force his but to sit, didn't scold or say, "no" when he got back up, before I was ready.

It's not all about being "mean" by using corrections. It's about the dog learning better, learning HOW to learn better and how to problem solve. It just makes a happier, smarter, better trained dog IMO.

[Doberluv]

Today I began beefing up his paying attention to me when we're outside and there are things in the enviornment that distract him. I need to really work on this problem. He'd be looking at something or listening to something in the woods and I'd want him to look at me instead. I didn't say, "NO!!!" I didn't yank his leash (actually, he didn't have a leash or collar on) I just said, "Lyric...watch." I waved a treat past his nose and held it up to my face. He followed that with his head and eyes and I immediately praised and gave the treat. We walked around, changed locations in the yard and did it again and again. He would stare off into space, ding bat that he is sometimes and I'd repeat that. I'm going to practice and practice with minimal distractions until it gets to be more of a habit with him and then I'll try it with light distractions. There is no scolding or physical force. It's just that he is going to prefer these fantastic treats I've got and the praise, which he gobbles up over other things. It's GOT TO BECOME ALMOST A HABIT. My plan is to make me his default attention thing instead of the outside world. (a tall order, I suppose) Then I hope to combat his acting like a fool when he sees another dog, which has come up recently. Ugggg. I only wish I had worked on this more, much, much earlier.

Creature Teacher, if you have a better way to do this, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to waste time doing it wrong. Thanks in advance.

Oh....sometimes the little training treats I've been using, which he does love, still aren't every time enough to get him to look if he's looking intently at something else off in the distance, even when I stick it right in front of his nose. It's not like he's highly aroused yet, but looking. So, if I use better treats, as in...too special, like fresh meat or cheese maybe... he will tend to pay soooooo much attention that he never looks at anything else and so I can't test him out or practice. Ya know what I mean? So, what should I do?

Oh, I know...less distractions. But these are pretty mild where we're doing it. If I take him inside, like in the living room where there are almost no distractions to speak of, then he'll just stare at me waiting for a treat and again, I won't get to test him out. Or...should I just do it inside periodically....wait for him to get interested in something else and then try it?

[oriondw]

Forget I even started this argument, from reading some of the posts here its hopeless.

Ill just stick to nutrition/health forum for advice, and leave training to you people. It seams you "know" what you are doing. :)

[opokki]

Today I began beefing up his paying attention to me when we're outside and there are things in the enviornment that distract him. I need to really work on this problem. He'd be looking at something or listening to something in the woods and I'd want him to look at me instead. I didn't say, "NO!!!" I didn't yank his leash (actually, he didn't have a leash or collar on) I just said, "Lyric...watch." I waved a treat past his nose and held it up to my face. He followed that with his head and eyes and I immediately praised and gave the treat. We walked around, changed locations in the yard and did it again and again. He would stare off into space, ding bat that he is sometimes and I'd repeat that. I'm going to practice and practice with minimal distractions until it gets to be more of a habit with him and then I'll try it with light distractions. There is no scolding or physical force. It's just that he is going to prefer these fantastic treats I've got and the praise, which he gobbles up over other things. It's GOT TO BECOME ALMOST A HABIT. My plan is to make me his default attention thing instead of the outside world. (a tall order, I suppose) Then I hope to combat his acting like a fool when he sees another dog, which has come up recently. Ugggg. I only wish I had worked on this more, much, much earlier.

Creature Teacher, if you have a better way to do this, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to waste time doing it wrong. Thanks in advance.

Oh....sometimes the little training treats I've been using, which he does love, still aren't every time enough to get him to look if he's looking intently at something else off in the distance, even when I stick it right in front of his nose. It's not like he's highly aroused yet, but looking. So, if I use better treats, as in...too special, like fresh meat or cheese maybe... he will tend to pay soooooo much attention that he never looks at anything else and so I can't test him out or practice. Ya know what I mean? So, what should I do?

Oh, I know...less distractions. But these are pretty mild where we're doing it. If I take him inside, like in the living room where there are almost no distractions to speak of, then he'll just stare at me waiting for a treat and again, I won't get to test him out. Or...should I just do it inside periodically....wait for him to get interested in something else and then try it?

I've been working on this with mine too. Its coming along nicely too but I have'nt tried it with many distractions yet. I've pracitced alot in the house and recently started in the backyard where there are some but very few distractions.
Sebastian has this bad habit of barking and running to the door when people are trying to leave. A couple weeks ago my neighbor came upstairs and was about to leave out the back door. Sebastian was in the kitchen with me and I saw him stiffen as he does right before he runs to the door to back at the person leaving. So before he even got started just as my neighbor put her hand on the door knob I quickly said "Sebastian, Look!" and he turned around so quickly. It was amazing! And my neighbor left right and not a peep of Sebastian...he was too busy "looking" at me.

[BigDog2191]

Something that bugs me.

You hit your child to teach him something is wrong, right? Or at least some people do as discipline, I was.

I didn't turn out bad and I don't hate my dad.

If I hit my dog in order to correct him or out of anger from something he did it will ruin our relationship?

[Adrienne]

Never should physical punishment be used when one is angry. My children have been swatted on the rear end for such transgressions as going into the street when they knew better or doing something else that threatens their safety but it is never done because I am angry. When I am angry then it is time for me to take a time out and assess the situation. Not only that but dogs are learning a whole new language, it would be equivelent to a foreginer doing something we find unacceptable and hitting them for it, not exactly fair. Once your dog knows 100% what is expected of them and what is and isn't acceptable you shouldn't have any issues where physical punishment is needed. Training takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, just like raising a child does, you have to teach them the right way and hitting is not usually an acceptable norm in today's society because it is proven to be unnecessary and counter-productive. I know that I would rather please someone and be gently guided when doing something wrong than be hit because I didn't understand the rules.

[Renee750il]

The thing about using violence to 'teach' your dog is that you've now taught your dog that violence gets results when interacting with humans. NOT a lesson you want your dog to take to heart! Especially with one of the large, self-determined breeds. Your large dog's also going to figure out at some point that he - or she - is stronger than you are. If the dog has been raised with the philosophy that "might makes right" you can have a real problem on your hands. Maybe not in his interaction with you, necessarily, but it will weaken, if not remove, some of the inhibitions regarding arbitrarily bullying people.

It's also humiliating. My parents believed in corporal punishment too. I turned out okay, but no thanks to being hit and humiliated! The same thing goes for dogs.

[CreatureTeacher]

Adrienne took the words right out of my mouth! I too was swatted when I was little for doing things I knew I shouldn't do. But dogs can't tell you, "Yes, I knew that was wrong. Sorry." And truth be told, they usually don't know it was wrong, because we haven't clearly communicated our expectations. The idea behind punishment-based training is you leave the animal (or person) no other option than to do what you want. You don't usually show them what's right in any meaningful way, you just correct them for what's wrong until they guess correctly. You can try this yourself: Get a friend or family member to pick a simple task that they want to "train" you to do, like getting a soda from the fridge and opening it or some other such thing. Don't let them tell you what the task is. Then, every time you do something that doesn't progress you in the task they've chosen, they get to yell "NO!" at you. See how much you enjoy your training. You get frustrated and irritated because this "trainer" isn't willing to tell you what to do, only what not to do. Then think how much more difficult this is for dogs, who have to live in what amounts to an alien society. Training a dog this way can make them feel isolated and unhappy. Fortunately for us, dogs are extremely forgiving, in-the-moment animals, and they will always love us. But I for one would feel terrible if I treated my dog that way, especially because he'll love me no matter what. I think I owe it to him to make it easier for him to live a happy and comfortable life while giving him an education at the same time.

[oriondw]

Who ever gave you an idea that correction is beating the dog up? There are different variations of training. Beating the dog is just stupid, and you seem to focus on that alot.

I never saw a dog that was hurt by a stern no and little shake by its scruff.

Im not sure about your backgrounds with dogs but in my experience some of the things you people post make me doubt your credentials as dog trainers. It seems you do not understand even basic concepts of negative/positive reinforcement. A good training involves not one or the other, but both given at appropriate moments. Beating the dog is bad, making the dog afraid of you is even worse. Thats not the point of methods i use. Can you understand that for each situation there are different methods of approach that work best? In alot of situation you have to make a point to a dog that behavior is undesirable and there is no way outside a correction to tell the dog.

I feel that alot of people are not understanding what I write, or they simply choose to ignore it.

[Renee750il]

There may be some misunderstanding, Orion. Some of your posts sound like you're advocating something more serious.

That said, I never, ever use a physical correction until I KNOW my dog understands exactly what I want and chooses to ignore. Even then, the only thing that actually gets my grrrls attention is a switch. It stings, which gets their attention immediately, THEN I can tell them what I want them to do. Shiva had a problem with recall for awhile. If she was particularly enjoying something she just saw no reason to come. All it took was one time. I told her if I had to come and get her she'd be sorry, telling her I was cutting a switch! When I got there I gave her a flick on the back of her legs and she ran ten feet up the driveway and sat down and waited for me, then walked right by my side the rest of the way. I'm having (finally) some success with calling Kharma away from the windows - barking and generally going insane over the cows. She's much better about coming away from the windows when I call her - I rarely have to tell her not to make me get the switch, lol!

I've NEVER dealt with dogs like these two! Even Buffy, our first Fila, was a dream to work with. There wasn't really any "working" to it; you just told her what you wanted and that was that. She couldn't bear any sort of affront to her dignity, so doing anything that might result in a scolding was not to be thought of!

Bimmer, on the other hand, has never had to have more than a lecture. And he does correct the grrrrls; physically if he thinks it necessary . . . :eek:

[Doberluv]

I've been working on this with mine too. Its coming along nicely too but I have'nt tried it with many distractions yet. I've pracitced alot in the house and recently started in the backyard where there are some but very few distractions.
Sebastian has this bad habit of barking and running to the door when people are trying to leave. A couple weeks ago my neighbor came upstairs and was about to leave out the back door. Sebastian was in the kitchen with me and I saw him stiffen as he does right before he runs to the door to back at the person leaving. So before he even got started just as my neighbor put her hand on the door knob I quickly said "Sebastian, Look!" and he turned around so quickly. It was amazing! And my neighbor left right and not a peep of Sebastian...he was too busy "looking" at me.

Wooo hoooo! That's fantastic! He's getting it. Isn't it a great feeling? You must be proud. Now you've inspired me. LOL.

[BigDog2191]

Doesn't a mother in a litter nip the pups right back to teach them it's not okay...?

[Renee750il]

:D I don't really think you want to nip a dog - bleaaack. And anyway - your dog KNOWS you're not mama. ;)

[Doberluv]

Doesn't a mother in a litter nip the pups right back to teach them it's not okay...?

No. And like Renee said, you're not your dog's mother. LOL. We'd be hard pressed to really come off as a dog. (we'd need a whole lot better disguise) LOL.

This idea of trying to emulate dog behavior in ourselves is a fruitless concept. If you stick to proven behavioral training methods, you'll be all right. Control resources. ie: no resources, no treat, no attention....zero, zip, nada if the dog's behavior sucks. Good things when the dog's behavior suits you. Simple as that. And then just let the puppy develop into a mature dog as naturally as you can allow. In other words, while you want and need to teach the pup manners, compliance, how to live with humans our way, don't take away his puppyhood by being too serious.

[opokki]

It seems you do not understand even basic concepts of negative/positive reinforcement.

There are 4 scenerios in operant conditioning. Negative punishment and Positive punishment are used to decrease the chances of a behavior being repeated. Negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement are used to increase the chances of a specific behavior being repeated. So far, I have'nt found negative reinforcement or positive punishment to be neccesary while working with my dogs.
I mostly use Negative Punishment (take away something desirable to decrease the likelihood of a behavior reoccuring) and Positive Reinforcement (add something desirable to increase the likelihood of a behavior reoccuring).
I do use punishment, I just don't use physical punishment.

In order for physical corrections to be effective they must be strong but not so strong that they physically and/or mentally harm the dog. Too strong will likely cause fear and possibly even aggression. Too weak will not be effective enough and will allow the dog to build up a tolerance as the corrections gradually become stronger but still remain ineffective. I guess my main problem with physical corrections is that they seem to be, more often than not, misused. They are applied too strong or not strong enough, applied with poor timing and some people use "correction" equipment without even taking the time to learn how to use it properly. Further more, alot of correction based training seems to be focused on the concept of dominance theory....using corrections to dominate your dog so that he respects you as "alpha".
Just my opinion. ;)


A good training involves not one or the other, but both given at appropriate moments. Beating the dog is bad, making the dog afraid of you is even worse. Thats not the point of methods i use. Can you understand that for each situation there are different methods of approach that work best? In alot of situation you have to make a point to a dog that behavior is undesirable and there is no way outside a correction to tell the dog.

I feel that alot of people are not understanding what I write, or they simply choose to ignore it.

I think I understand you but I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say which is just that there are ways other than physical "corrections" to teach a dog what you don't want it to do in many situations. I'm not experienced enough to dispute your theory that, in some situations, a physical "correction" is necessary.

[BigDog2191]

No. And like Renee said, you're not your dog's mother. LOL. We'd be hard pressed to really come off as a dog. (we'd need a whole lot better disguise) LOL.

This idea of trying to emulate dog behavior in ourselves is a fruitless concept. If you stick to proven behavioral training methods, you'll be all right. Control resources. ie: no resources, no treat, no attention....zero, zip, nada if the dog's behavior sucks. Good things when the dog's behavior suits you. Simple as that. And then just let the puppy develop into a mature dog as naturally as you can allow. In other words, while you want and need to teach the pup manners, compliance, how to live with humans our way, don't take away his puppyhood by being too serious.

I don't think you have to be a dog to instill the same idea.

[bubbatd]

Each breed of dog has it's own stubornist. I think that's one of the reasons I love Golden Retrievers so. A touch on the nose to contact ..eye to eye contact and a no-bite , or no anything sinks in. ( I used "Mine" a lot when chewing on something that's not theirs and substitute,) From puppy stage on, when they are into something they shouldn't be, all I have to do is clear my throat and they stop. They know right from wrong!

[Renee750il]

I use 'MINE!' quite often with The Monsters. Like when I catch Kharma carrying one of my bras off again . . . :rolleyes:

[CreatureTeacher]

Control resources. ie: no resources, no treat, no attention....zero, zip, nada if the dog's behavior sucks. Good things when the dog's behavior suits you.
What a wonderfully concise explanation! :D I love simplicity!

[CreatureTeacher]

There are 4 scenerios in operant conditioning. Negative punishment and Positive punishment are used to decrease the chances of a behavior being repeated. Negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement are used to increase the chances of a specific behavior being repeated. So far, I have'nt found negative reinforcement or positive punishment to be neccesary while working with my dogs.
I mostly use Negative Punishment (take away something desirable to decrease the likelihood of a behavior reoccuring) and Positive Reinforcement (add something desirable to increase the likelihood of a behavior reoccuring).
I do use punishment, I just don't use physical punishment.

In order for physical corrections to be effective they must be strong but not so strong that they physically and/or mentally harm the dog. Too strong will likely cause fear and possibly even aggression. Too weak will not be effective enough and will allow the dog to build up a tolerance as the corrections gradually become stronger but still remain ineffective. I guess my main problem with physical corrections is that they seem to be, more often than not, misused. They are applied too strong or not strong enough, applied with poor timing and some people use "correction" equipment without even taking the time to learn how to use it properly. Further more, alot of correction based training seems to be focused on the concept of dominance theory....using corrections to dominate your dog so that he respects you as "alpha".
Just my opinion. ;)

That's extremely well put, Opokki. I agree with you completely. I should've qualified my statements: I also don't use physical punishment, because it's a very difficult thing to do correctly, it's hard to tell when you have done it correctly, and most importantly because I've witnessed the behavioral "side effects" that can develop with the improper use of "corrections" and prefer to avoid solutions that tend to only cause more problems. (The devastating emotional damage that accompanies learned helplessness comes to mind.) I do, however, regularly implement resource control and manipulation of social and emotional situations to communicate to dogs what is and is not acceptable in a given situation. The difference, I believe, is that when my dog does something I don't like, I prefer to react with thought instead of emotion. The calmer you can remain when you're training a dog, the clearer the lesson will become to the dog. Instead of saying, "You're gonna pay for that, dog," I say, "What could I be doing differently to prevent this and communicate to the dog what he should be doing instead?" Just the difference between domination and cooperation.
there are ways other than physical "corrections" to teach a dog what you don't want it to do in many situations.
I agree completely. There absolutely are other ways to tell your dog what you want him to know.

[BigDog2191]

LOL...

Can somebody please sum this down for me?

Okay, so the best ways to stop nipping are:

1) Isolate him.

And... uh, that's it...?

I usually hold his snout shut for a few seconds saying "stop" and then when I release he kind of nips out and then I say, "Good boy" and he starts licking.

I know people are against this but this truly the ONLY way he stops. There really is no other way... he's that stubborn :D .

[Renee750il]

German Shepherds can be extra stubborn, can't they? When Shiva and Kharma got REALLY bad about trying to chew on me I ended up wrapping my fingers around their lower jaws and just holding it for a few seconds. It didn't hurt at all, they couldn't bite down when I had hold of the lower jaw, and it didn't take that long for either one of them to decide that biting just wasn't as much fun as they thought it was.

[Fran27]

Well to be honest, the whole ignoring thing when he bites isn't working so well here. Especially as half the time, he only jumps/nips at you when you are turning away from him in the first place. So, I just ignore him, and when he calms down makes him sit and then pet him.. and he's biting again as soon as I move.

And he moves too fast to catch his snot too anyway. So I'm pretty much at a loss of what to do, except of course wait 4 more months until he finally gets it...

[Saje]

Well it sounds like you are doing well. If he stops when you ignore him it's working. Keep it up. He's a pup! It takes time. You can't expect it to work overnight. You may have to do it 15 times in an hour. But that's part of having a puppy.

[Doberluv]

Keep at it. When he bites at you while you're turning around, keep walking away. Go lock yourself in the bathroom if you have to for 1 or 2 minutes. Don't look at him, don't speak, don't make any movements toward him. IGNORE and remove the payoff. When you come back, ask for a sit and or give a chew toy. Praise for that. Just show him the contrast: What happens when he doesn't bite? (praise, pat, attention, treat, toy) What happens when he does bite? (Mommy go bye bye. No attention, no praise, no pat, no treat, no nothin'.) In about 5 or 6 months, (give or take) he'll finally get it most likely. Be consistant and don't change methods when one doesn't work after a week of trying. That will confuse the dog. Stay with it and grin and bear it because that's what puppies do. LOL.