overflow from my other thread

[Laurelin]

So I've been thinking about the general state of toys and breeding. It's just sad. I absolutely adore papillons, but I am not sure what I can do to ever get started responsibly if its impossible to buy from completely health tested stock or to find health tested studs. It makes me wish I would just choose another breed.

I'm just not sure what to do. I love papillons- there's no breed like them in the world, but the way they are so rarely health tested bothers me. It's not like it is in many other breeds where enough people health test that it's semi common. In paps it's virtually unheard of.

In the future, I want to get more into showing and possibly breeding. Not my family where I have no say, but me. What would you do if you were me? Is the lack of health testing something that would drive you away from a certain breed? What if you love the breed? Could you overlook it and do the best you could without being irresponsible? Would it make you want to try to do your best so that at least there was one breeder that tested their dogs? Would it be fruitless?

I'd really like to hear your opinions on it. I'd especially like to hear from Showpug as I know you face the same sort of issues.

There are other breeds I love, a couple as much as papillons. But paps have something special... :confused:

One breed I may be interested in getting as my next show dog and my first dog living on my own is an Ibizan. Right now it seems a safer bet... (This is at least a couple years down the road though)

[showpug]

You are me right now! I feel EXACTLY like you feel. I love Pugs, but how do I even attempt to breed responsibly when no one health tests their stud dogs. So I spend all this money on health testing and then use an un-screened male :confused: What would be the point, really?

That is why and for some other reasons that I am leaning towards not breeding Alice. At this point, I just want to get that last point and spay her. I am leaning towards moving into Bulldogs as my next breed to start showing etc. Pugs are very special to me, but I hate what people are doing with them and the careless breeding efforts!

However, I do think it's also important to be an example of good breeding practices within your breed. I think the only way to do this is to take a HUGE gamble. You buy a good quality show male and a good quality show female, finish them, run all the health screens and then start your breeding program from there. It's a gamble because you run the chance of them not passing and you have to start from square one again. Ugh, it's tiring to think about. This method also doesn't do much for selecting the best mate conformation wise, but at least the health is placed as the top priority which in my opinion should be more important. You can always work with the conformation later...

[BostonBanker]

I know nothing about show dogs, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

Let's say, Showpug, that you decide you really want to breed Alice. You find a nice male with his Ch. Now, is there any chance of the owner of the stud letting you pay for his health test? Or would they not want that information?

[Laurelin]

Yeah, it's a no win no matter what. It's impossible to get dogs that are from screened breedings. You work so hard to get them finished and screened only to have them fail. Then you have to go spend more money and give it to another breeder that doesn't screen and the cycle goes on and on. You have to own your own studs (which is forwned upon) or the dogs are for sure not screened. It's more than enough to discourage a person and to keep anyone responsible from being involved in the breed.

So few breeders seem to care about chainging this. Is it because the breeds don't work or they're afraid they'll find problems? Or is it because they just don't care to spend the money if they can get away with it like everyone else?

And then to top it off, you have the tiny dog fad and all the mills producing so many toys. The breeds are headed for some real trouble.

It's the saddest because the breed (well, the whole group) deserves better.

[RD]

I've always thought it, but never said anything. I think a lot of toy breeders must be making quite a bit of profit on their dogs. The ones I know of that are considered reputable will show a dog to its championship (or not), maybe do an eye test (or not) and a brucellosis test. Toy breed puppies do not eat much and provided everything goes well with whelping, vet care is usually less because there are fewer puppies. Sell three puppies for $2500 each and you have a fair chunk of money. Breed the bitch two more times and you've got a LOT of profit. I just honestly don't understand why people who do this claim to be interested in the betterment of the breed.

That is a really, really tricky situation. I honestly don't know what I'd do. Obviously I'd test my dogs up the wazoo (and expect a few abnormalities) but if nobody else tested their dogs, it would be a matter of just buying your own dogs and only breeding from them. Bah, I don't know, I couldn't do it on my own unless I was really dedicated to getting a whole new line started.

What is the condition of the Papillon breed in other countries? In general is the health better (or just different) than in the US?

[OutlineACDs]

Even though most people in my breed health test for important stuff (BEAR, OFA hips, CERF, and we have a PRCD test for PRA), this isn't enough. I will, from now on thyroid test every dog I breed. I will also send my BAER results in to OFA. What good does it do us if we do not have a pedigree database of the results. People will BAER test entire litters and then not send the papers in because just having the passing test is enough. I did not think of that before breeding my first litter, so I sent all of the BAER results with each individual puppy with a form to fill out and send in to OFA, although I did not make it mandatory, so none of my puppy owners have sent them in.

After having her litter, my bitch developed hypothyroidism. She will be spayed next month. She will not be bred again, the puppy I kept will not be bred. All of the other were sold on S/N contracts. When I informed her breeder she said she apologised and also told me that she does not own Carrie's mother anymore, so thyroid testing her is not possible. When I told the owner of Carrie's sister, she told me that "It wasn't a common genetic problem so she sees no reason to test." The owner of Carrie's father said "Well I haven't had any of his other pups show up with the problem, but I will keep my eye out." So, essentially, I got told, too bad so sad, we still aren't going to test for it. It is in all breeds. Just do your best.

Another thing that is now a big pet peeve of mine is temperament. Yes, it is genetic. If it wasn't how would you explain my fear-reactive girl? At first, I was thinking, well, something spooked her and I just didn't notice, then I put the blame on my own dog. I though "Well, Carrie must have some fearful genes in there somewhere that I just didn't notice before". That is until I met Rumor's half-sister. (Same father) EXACT SAME temperament. Down to the hysterical barking. So keep that in mind when breeding, temperament IS inherited. You can shape it good or bad, but if your dog's parents (even one of them) has a bad/fearful/mean temperament, you better watch out.

Off my soapbox.

[Gempress]

Hmmm. I didn't realize testing was so rare in small breeds. My mom's maltese is a retired show/breeding dog from retired from a kennel that is considered one of the the best maltese breeders. I know the owner had Scandal tested (she mentioned her eyes and patella score), but I don't know how prevalent such testing is.

I wonder, is it possible that small dogs are so genetically unhealthy that they don't test deliberately? Maybe from too much careless breeding in the past? Or maybe it's because hip/eye/patella problems aren't as devastating to a 5 lb lapdog as they are to a 70 lb working dog?

I dunno.

[Laurelin]

I've always thought it, but never said anything. I think a lot of toy breeders must be making quite a bit of profit on their dogs. The ones I know of that are considered reputable will show a dog to its championship (or not), maybe do an eye test (or not) and a brucellosis test. Toy breed puppies do not eat much and provided everything goes well with whelping, vet care is usually less because there are fewer puppies. Sell three puppies for $2500 each and you have a fair chunk of money. Breed the bitch two more times and you've got a LOT of profit. I just honestly don't understand why people who do this claim to be interested in the betterment of the breed.

That is a really, really tricky situation. I honestly don't know what I'd do. Obviously I'd test my dogs up the wazoo (and expect a few abnormalities) but if nobody else tested their dogs, it would be a matter of just buying your own dogs and only breeding from them. Bah, I don't know, I couldn't do it on my own unless I was really dedicated to getting a whole new line started.

What is the condition of the Papillon breed in other countries? In general is the health better (or just different) than in the US?

The breeder you outline is the typical toy breeder. However, many do spend a ton of money with vet care during the pregnancy and if you think about it that way- the money going towards the championship and the vet care is only split over two or so pups- many times they only sell one. It makes sense to me for a toy pup to be more expensive in that regard. How much more expensive? I'm not sure. For a comparison, a beezer can often times have 12 pups. and they go about $1000 or so. That would be more of a profit than selling one or two pups for about $2000.

The average 'reputable' toy breeder will champ the dog most of the time and that's it. If you're lucky they may test eyes, get a CGC or a rally or agility title. If you're really lucky then they may do more than one of those. If you can find me one that tests everything and does all that, then you're amazing.

It's impossible to get started without using some of these untested lines and you can test your dogs all you want but as soon as you need to outcross, you're back into a corner.

Papillons are really pretty healthy for a breed. That's one reason I prefer them over shelties- less cancer and epilepsy and such. The states has PRA and patella issues as does everywhere else. I also hear of quite a few allergies in the breed. As for international lines, papillons seem to be about the same health wise around the world. They don't test anywhere that I have found. American bred papillons are definitely lacking in the type department, though. Sweden, Finland, and Japan seem to have the best of the breed, at least in my opinion.

My father and I were discussing this on the phone for a long time. I found out he knew I'd be upset about the subject posted in the other thread and they nearly didn't tell me until after the fact. I'm glad they did, it's giving me a lot of things to think about. The breeders we all know seem to really really enjoy their dogs and care about them and the breed. I seriously doubt the majority of them are in it for the profit. I know many who are, though. I think a lot of them are not very wealthy and let that get in the way of doing things the way they should. Also, I think a lot of them seem to be suffering from the idea that smaller breeds aren't as prone to structural issues- true, but it can still happen.

Maybe I should just take this as a sign to follow what I've wanted to do for an age and start really seriously looking at sighthounds. I've wanted to have one since seventh grade, but alas, I was never allowed a large breed dog.

I just feel like I'm turning my back on a breed I love and really needs my help.

[Laurelin]

Hmmm. I didn't realize testing was so rare in small breeds. My mom's maltese is a retired show/breeding dog from retired from a kennel that is considered one of the the best maltese breeders. I know the owner had Scandal tested (she mentioned her eyes and patella score), but I don't know how prevalent such testing is.

I wonder, is it possible that small dogs are so genetically unhealthy that they don't test deliberately? Maybe from too much careless breeding in the past? Or maybe it's because hip/eye/patella problems aren't as devastating to a 5 lb lapdog as they are to a 70 lb working dog?

I dunno.

The excuse is that structural problems aren't as serious or prevalent in small dogs. Most of the show stock toys I know get fairly old and with few problems, but I know a lot of BYB toys with tons of issues. I also know a few show bred paps with patella issues, none with PRA though.

Testing not so bad in slightly larger breeds that have a working base like shelties or something. Toys it is very very rare to test. If they do testing it'll most likely ONLY be eyes and patellas which is much much less than is done for large breeds.

[J's crew]

Well there been a ton of things I agree with so far.

The problem BostonBanker is that what if the parents of the sire weren't tested, or their parents, or their siblings. See what I mean?

And Gempress, I just have to wonder if it's not as important with smaller breeds because from what I've seen on average they are more popular. More people own small breeds than large. Supply and demand, of course. :rolleyes:

I think personally that if I didn't have a long history of tested parents, grandparents, and even siblings I wouldn't risk it. One thing I've learned is that no matter what the subject, if you do things with good ethics, you WILL make a difference. :)

Oh and btw, don't stop being involved with Pap's. It's people like you that help better the breed without even being a breeder. :D

[Laurelin]

I think personally that if I didn't have a long history of tested parents, grandparents, and even siblings I wouldn't risk it. One thing I've learned is that no matter what the subject, if you do things with good ethics, you WILL make a difference. :)

See, that's going to be completely impossible in a toy breed no matter how hard you try. A line like that would have to start somewhere. You can't magically pull a screened line out of nowhere because there really is none. So then should no one breed papillons?

Oh and btw, don't stop being involved with Pap's. It's people like you that help better the breed without even being a breeder. :D

Thanks for that, I needed it. :)

I guess part of the reason it's easy for them to not test is because there are so many even worse toy breeders out there. Toys like to attract puppy mill breeders that pay NO attention to temperament or health or the standard. I see so many paps that look NOTHING like papillons at all- short hair, no fringe, HUGE, or 'tea cup' (bleh). I've also met many paps that were snippy and bit a lot- that's not the breed I know either.

I don't know how it is in other breeds, but I also feel like way too many paps are being bred and shown than should be. Such a huge portion of pups from each litter show and/or are bred. Okay, so that's like two pups from each litter- but that's the majority of the litter. If a dog is okay it's shown. Especially in the US where the breed is still not as high of quality as in other countries. There are many dogs in the ring that should in no way be there imo. That's part of why imports are so popular right now for those that can afford the steep stud fee.

[Laurelin]

I keep rethinking the breeder in particular in question. I understand the situation the toy breeds are in especially and I think health certs can go so far. She does CERF, sometimes patellas. Her dogs are titled front and back with agility or obedience or CGC (many times mutliples and sometimes all, fairly rare in the breed to find that too) and conformation, all are Therapy dog International Certified, and she does put a lot into producing dogs with great temperaments. It's not as if toy breeders don't do anything good for their breed, they just generally don't put much if any importance on health testing. They tend to think if the line is not showing any issues, they're most likely not there. It's a fault, for sure, but is it bad enough to force someone who does put a lot of interest in health testing but loves the breed to staying away from the breed? Do you just gamble and try to find the best you possibly can? Maybe if some new breeders became involved and began stressing the importance of health certs more people would begin screening.

[SpringerLover]

It seems in my breed (and others) that they do health testing then disregard the answers!!! How frustrating is that?

They blame the OFA, the vet who took the x-rays, etc. instead of looking at the dog and thinking "MAYBE this dog is subpar and SHOULDN'T be bred..."

Granted, there are some really responsible people out there, but at least 50% of the people I meet who DO actually test, don't care, and that is just frustrating!

[noludoru]

If you wanted a health-tested LINE... And toy breeds live a long time... Theoretically you could probably be testing great-grandparents, if not more, of your dog. Assuming the owners of said relatives agreed. Now, you wont be having 10 generation health-testing... but it's better than nothing, right?