God, I feel sick

[Laurelin]

I really really do. I feel like breaking down and crying actually.

Please refrain from flaming as I have *nothing* to do with this at all.

Here's the story- My parents felt like buying another show dog so they purchased Harry both for my sister and for show purposes. I wasn't involved in the purchase at all as I was in school. I was all for it as they were going through the same breeder that we bought our first show dog for. Well, apparently, and I'm just now finding this out, they signed a contract allowing the breeder some breeding rights to him without discretion. I had warned them of this, but I suppose they didn't listen.

Now that Harry is almost year old, she's come calling for the first out of the two times they signed for him to be bred. My mom calls all excitedly saying he will be bred to my other dog's sister. WTF? There had been no warning whatsoever. I had heard they were breeding Beau's sister, and I have actually been against that breeding from the get go. She's not the most typey or most even tempered dog. But I couldn't stop it.

So this is the deal- the breeding will be done when Harry is just over one year- waaaay too young to be bred. He can't be tested for Patellar Luxation then. The bitch is about 3. Harry has never been shown at all. The bitch is a Ch with an obedience title as well. They're going to do a CERF, but that's it.

I brought up so many things on the phone to both my mother and the breeder about why this was wrong, but to no avail. I mentioned age- of course that's fine as the breeder has been breeding dogs 30+ years and she knows it's okay. Health testing- well, he's healthy, isn't he, and it's not uncommon for toys to be bred without health clearances? Conformation- he came from conformation stock and the dam is a champ and he'll be shown soon. Obviously nothing I say will change anything. I let my mother know that I in no way agree with this. She says if they refuse the breeding, it's breaking the contract.

I don't know what to do. I have no say in this matter as I've already said. I feel sick and hypocritical preaching responsible breeding and then one of my families dogs is going to be bred the exact way I believe it should not be bred. What do I do? I want to be involved in papillon showing/breeding in the future. I don't want my name anywhere near the pups or mentioned in the breeding as I DON'T agree with it. I guess that's not a problem as I'm not technically the owner of the dog, which is why I have no say right now.

And most of all, I feel very betrayed by someone I considered a mentor. someone who told me she'd help me learn the ropes of breeding and conformation. Someone who I thought when I got my dog did everything right. she did health screening, showed, CGC, rally etc. Her lines have been doing well and she got some imported Japanese blood and now she's running with it I suppose. Now I'm really not sure who to turn to. Everytime I turn around someone I know in conformation is getting back stabbed. It really makes me want to say to hell with it and just quit. What can I do?

My mother acts like it's no big deal as 'Harry is just contributing a little part to this'.

I feel sick. I think I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.

Thank god Beau isn't on a contract that sells his breeding rights away.

If you guys have any suggestions on how to try to prevent this from taking place, please let me know. The breeding isn't happening for a few months.

[bubbatd]

Boy !!! You're caught between a rock and a hard place !! Unless the breeder has part ownership ,( this would be on the registration papers ) can't they just say NO ! I think as owner , I would breach the agreement . What does the contract say to this ?? You are saying that the new pup will be bred to your sister's dog ?? I guess if your parents are gun-ho to the idea and want to go through a whelp , there's nothing you can do ! Keep us posted on this !!

[Laurelin]

Well, my mother is owner but apparently she signed a paper stating the breeder has two litters out of Harry, which I thought sort of understandable since he's an outcross male from imported lines, etc. But I thought my parents had to approve the bitch. aparently not and they signed that she could breed him twice to whoever and whenever. I guess that's what you get for trusting people.

Needless to say, I'll be in the market for a new mentor. I just get the feeling that you can't trust anyone. Virtually no one in toys health tests at all, and I thought I had found an exception. I guess I was wrong.

I feel pretty crappy right now.

[Laurelin]

Oh, and just to clarify, my sister has nothing to do with this. She's 9...

[RD]

Ahh, Laur. :( What a rotten position to be in. I'd feel betrayed by that "mentor" too.

What does the PCA code of ethics say in regards to breeding? Is this breeder a member?

It sounds like there isn't much you can do, but I would make your disapproval of this crystal clear. Not so much to your parents, but to Harry's breeder.

Sorry I don't know what else to tell you.

[OutlineACDs]

Could you possibly have your mom (since she is the owner) sit down with the breeder and talk about how she wants to at least wait until he's old enough to do patellas? Maybe she would be able to reason with the lady.

[Laurelin]

Oh the PCA doesn't say much about breeding except that pet quality dogs should be sent on a spay/neuter contract and that no members should produce crossbred dogs.

BREEDING: Dogs will be bred according to the approved American Kennel Club Papillon Breed Standard. All pet puppies not kept by the breeder should be sold or placed into a caring home. Pets should ideally be spayed/neutered prior to placement, and at least be placed with a spay/neuter contract. Unplanned matings will be guarded against. No member shall intentionally produce crossbred dogs and will never offer or advertise crossbred dogs for sale.

I've tried talking to my mom, but apparently since i have no experience breeding and the breeder does, my opinion counts for very very little.

The breeder is a member.

[bubbatd]

Crap !!! Do what you can !! I'd be crushed too !

[Zoom]

Man, that's just messed up. I have no idea what you could do, other than show the contract to a lawyer and see if there's some sort of loophole or a squishy area that would allow Harry to be held back in reserve until appropriate health testing was done.

man, she of all people should know that just because a pup is out of Champ lines doesn't mean the dog itself is Champ material!

[Laurelin]

Thanks guys. I was preparing to be flamed for sure.

The way I see it is that this pairing could've been great. I've been thinking of it and they really do balance each other well. Where one has a fault the other excels. I see the reasoning behind this pairing. I wish it would be done responsibly, though.

You see, in toy breeds more often than not, health testing is not done. That's just the way it is and everybody uses the fact that no one tests to skip the health testing themselves. It's a loop that no one dares to move out of. What if they find something? *sigh* It's annoying because they just assume health. I would have had little reservations if he wasn't finished but was health tested. He is neither. The good news is that his line has had neither of the two main problems in the breed, but that isn't good enough. It's the excuse she uses though. they're toys, they don't work so why health test? None of the big name breeders health test, so why health test?

Health testing is such an important thing for me, especially, being a geneticist. I can't see how it is given so little thought in an entire breed. I love the breed but I feel like the vast majority of the breeders think it's okay to skip this vital part of breeding.

She gets two litters from Harry, nothing from Beau and I doubt she'll be around my dogs much more after this.

[RD]

Just because they're small doesn't mean it's okay to breed a dog with no proof of soundness. Argh, this is really disappointing. :(

How old does Harry have to be to get his patellas done? I thought that could be done at a younger age than hips and elbows in large breeds. Has a vet checked them for laxity (is that even a word..)?

[Laurelin]

Not yet, I can see if we can get this done so at least we'll have that much done. I thought patellas were done at 2 years. If it's earlier maybe there is hope.

I agree RD, it is sad. I've always wondered why so many toy breeders feel it's okay to skip testing, but that's the truth of the matter. I think it'd be pretty hard to get started with dogs with all health clearances. Even the 'thorough' breeders only do OFA Cardio, OFA patellas and CERF. I hear it's really bad in chins and yorkies too. :(

[RD]

It says 12 months on the OFA site, and anything younger just counts as a consultation.

[Laurelin]

I'll see about that, but the breeding she wants is right at 12 months old. :(

[Laurelin]

Argh I just keep thinking about this and I still can't think of anything to do nor can I think of a positive. It doesn't help that this is already a stressfull week.

[Laurelin]

Okay, so I've been thinking about this from a more objective stance. I'm not saying this is a good plan, I'm just trying to get all the facts straight in my head.

It sounds like we can get his patellas done or at least consult the vet about them before. The breeder does not care if we do, but as a moral obligation I feel we must. It's not my decision really, but I can keep telling them to do so and maybe they'll listen. I've been really talking to my parentals.

He's 1 year old- young. I've always heard that you wait until 2 years old but those have always been larger breeds. Is that done just for health testing so they can have hips scored? Is it acceptable to breed small breeds younger since hip scores are never done?

The bitch is being bred her first time at about three years old. She won't be bred her next heat, but may be bred once more in her life. The breeder never breeds back to back heats or more than twice.

The breeder has had very few issues with pregnancies. She's delivered a lot of toy litters.

All potential pups are already spoken for and all would go to good homes. She always has a waiting list.

Both lines have not had any kind of knee or eye problems in generations. One side of the family does have teeth issues, but that's really been it.

The bitch is owned by a friend of mine- and elderly lady that bought her at a year or so and finished her and now does obedience with her. She agreed to two litters to go to the breeder.

The bitch champed easily with all majors, the sire has never been shown.

The breeder bred them both, though the sire is half import from Japan. She has contacts to his sire's breeder though.

I'm pretty sure the bitch had all health tests done a while back as last heat I belive she was supposed to be bred to another stud. I guess that fell through though. I need to find this out for sure. Let me look it up but I'm really sure it was done.

The pair of them fit nicely together really. Their faults and strengths compliment each other for the most part.

I've let everyone know where I stand on the issue and the importance of health testing to me.

My name will be nowhere on anything involving the pups. It should not affect anything that I eventually do just in case I do end up breeding/showing papillons. It's not my dog.

I guess all my problem is with this is the lack of care the breeder seems to have if the studs are health tested. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since it's a breed where it's not done often, but it still bothers me.

What do I do about the breeder? She does things much better than the majority of them out there in the breed, but this has really made me lose faith. How do you get started responsibly in a breed like this where health testing is seen as an option? I only know a few breeders that get Chic'd dogs. They're all up north and none of them seem to do the agility or obedience. The top kennels don't health test at all... Imported dogs rarely have health clearances. I love the breed but this is just so hard to deal with. I know a puppy from one of the most successful lines going in for surgery this week for grade 3 Patellar Luxation. The breeder is considered one of the best in the breed, but they don't screen for anything. :(

I'll keep you all updated.

[showpug]

Preliminary OFA is better than nothing and CERF as well. Maybe try to talk them into at least doing prelims?

I feel for you, I really do. I know how common it is for the toy people to ignore health testing. It's something that is rarely done in pugs. I started Alice's screens, but trying to find a quality stud who had his health tests done was truly impossible. Ugh, it's so frusterating!

I guess at the end of the day all that we truly have control over is our own actions.

[IliamnasQuest]

Sorry to hear of yet another breeder who is not doing health checks. It's always so disappointing when someone you thought was a good breeder turns out not to be.

If you could at least encourage the breeder or your Mom to do preliminary health checks, it would be good. Those could be done at any age - the closer to the right age the better in this case. Thyroid and patellas can be certified at a year of age, but a preliminary can be done before then too. If something showed up it might make the breeder decide against the breeding .. or at least will make the breeder aware of what she's breeding.

Patellas and thyroid together will probably cost $100 or so.

There's no reason why anyone should flame YOU on this. And hopefully a thread like this will help educate others who may come across it.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Laurelin]

Thanks showpug. That's very true, and I know I'm not doing anything wrong here. I'm trying to talk them into prelims.

All we toy people can hope for is that more people will begin to screen. Perhaps one day it'll be the norm and expected in the breeds like it is in other breeds. Hopefully it won't take a dreadful amount of PRA or patellar luxation to get it done.

I showed my friend who is into terriers the health screening done in paps and she was shocked. Our Chic numbers are so low and only three tests are recorded. (Cardiac, patellas, and PRA) It's sad.

Anywas, here's pics of the sire and the dam:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h126/Gloriedogz/Paps/harold-2.jpg
Potential sire- keep in mind this is the most recent picture I have of him and it's taken in November. He's gotten a lot bigger recently. :)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h126/Gloriedogz/bb3.jpg
The potential dam: on the left, sorry for the crappy pic, but I really don't have a better one. This is on her 2nd birthday. The other dog is Beau.

ETA: Thanks IliamnasQuest too. I was just really upset at first. I'm still upset, just calmed down a bit since then. I took a long hot shower and it helped. I'll try as hard as I can for the prelims. I won't go down without a fight! :lol-sign:

I guess the bottom line of this thread is that toy breeders need to start putting more stock in health tests and not wait until we have major issues. It's not that big of a deal or a hassle and I can't understand the reasoning behind everyone thinking toys are exempt from screenings and genetic issues.

I think there's no way I can stop it, but I'm going to do my best to see this done as responsibly as possible. Pray for a safe pregnancy and healthy pups. Oh and also pray that I can get through to them.

[Bahamutt99]

Man. Its got to be rough co-owning or sharing breeding rights with a breeder who doesn't share your goals and ethics. That was one thing I looked at very hard when I bought Loki on a co-own. Breeding should be a mutually-agreed-upon thing. I don't see what is the benefit to doing this breeding ASAP as opposed to a year from now when he may be more ready.

[Spirit2010]

Aww! ((hugs)) I am soo sorry that your mom didn't listen!! :( Maybe you should tell your mother again, and keep at it. Don't give up!

[Laurelin]

Man. Its got to be rough co-owning or sharing breeding rights with a breeder who doesn't share your goals and ethics. That was one thing I looked at very hard when I bought Loki on a co-own. Breeding should be a mutually-agreed-upon thing. I don't see what is the benefit to doing this breeding ASAP as opposed to a year from now when he may be more ready.

Yep. The problem is what can you do when no one in the breed shares your ethics? It's a tough situation.

And I agree that breeding should be a mutually agreed upon thing. *sigh*

[Miakoda]

If it were my male dog, I'd find a mysterious testicular lump that caused the dog to have to be neutered.:D

[Laurelin]

Hehe, I doubt that'd work. Especially since he's not my dog and he's going to be showing really soon.

[Purdue#1]

you know there are ways to get around a contract. tell your mom it would put the dog in danger at that age. He could hurt himself during the breeding(pull away,etc.).


I read somewhere on this thread that you said neither of the dogs has been bred before. I have never bred a dog, but from the info i have read, shouldn't at least one of the dogs been bred once?

[Laurelin]

I honestly don't know the answer to that as I'm not involved in breeding at all. I want to be in the future, but right now college is most of my life. If anyone knows, I'd be appreciative. I'm still attempting to persuade and be creative but it seems it's not working like I'd hope. I think I can get the prelim testing done though. Keep your fingers crossed.

This is frusterating.