Pups on the way

[LabBreeder]

I may or may not be able to respond any time soon, so try to keep the questions minimal for now. I'm using the libraries computer (across the street from our new home).
Update first: We moved into our own 2 bedroom home a little over a month ago. Tira and Gunner have the second bedroom to themselves at night and when we are gone. We leave the blinds up so they can see outside and have plenty of sun. We also leave the t.v. on Animal Planet so they aren't completely bored/lonely. We also have a new (to us) '95 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Our old red pick up seized up on us finally and will NOT start no matter what. :( Oh well, maybe someone will want it for parts. :)

Now, on to the part that I would normally hate to mention in here but will because I know alot of you would want to know and will not criticise to much.
Tira and Gunner hooked up 1/23 at 9pm. We went to the vet when she was 43 days along and were told to come back in a week for an x-ray because they couldn't feel anything doing the abdominal palpitations. Tira was to tense and tight. We went back last Tuesday (a week ago today) and had an x-ray done. There are 3 (possibly 4) pups. The latest she would have them would be Thursday...however, her temp has been below 100 for 24 hrs now and she started nesting early this morning. She didn't like the place I prepared for her in their room but decided that she'd rather be in the closet by our bed. Gunner is a year old, her shots are up to date, the pups seem very healthy (x-ray looked good and they kick and roll alot) and 2 are already promised to good homes. One is going to a vet assistant and the other to one of Tony's teachers at M.A.C.
I have a health guarantee covering eyes, hips and general health upon purchase. I also have copies of both of their pedigrees, basic care info, breed info, a questionaire for the potential owners as well as a few other things that escape me at the time. We are going to be available for the life time of the pups and are requesting pictures and progress reports as they grow. Neut/spay is required, having our last name in the pups registered name required, any breach of contract (pup being left outside, not being cared for, etc) we'll take them back and if they move or can't take care of the pups for any reason to bring them back to us. I think I did pretty good. There is more in the contract, but those are the basics. If you have any other additions that you think would be necessary or an improvement just let me know. I will be checking in on here sometime in the next few days/weeks.

The pups will also be listed for sale in the breeder section of AKC's website. I just want healthy pups and we'll be happy. If we can't find acceptable homes, regardless of selling price, we plan on keeping them (of course). I have at least 15 questions that a potential buyer must answer and that I must approve of before I will even take a deposit, much less let them have a pup.

Try not to criticise, what's done is done. If we'd been in our own place with them inside they wouldn't have mated in the first place. Since it happened, and she's going to have them sometime tonight or tomorrow and we have boned up on as much info as we possibly could in the past 60 days...it's just a matter of waiting now. I won't be able to post pictures but I will be taking pictures and will describe them in detail when I get the chance. I will be very busy over the next 8 weeks (and beyond) but will do my best to come by.

I will be off Tues and Thurs and Tony will be in school those days. I will be working during the week between 8a and 8p. Tony will have 4 days of 5-8. We're pretty much set so someone will be home with the pups.


We're very excited, nervous, anxious and worried. Gonna be grandparents!

COOL

[Zoom]

Is Gunnar even a year yet?

Good luck with everything!

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I'm not to sure how to react or what to say. They say if you can't say nothing nice then don't say anything at all..........but why in the heck do people leave two intact M/F together and not expect them to breed :rolleyes: Gunner is only a year old so no hips have been checked or has he been penn hipped? How old is Cheyenne?
I also must say this little rant....for the simple fact that our shelters here in Mass are overflowing with unwanted dogs both pure and mixed from down South because they don't seem to bother to Spay and neuter and don't have enough homes for them. IMO the South is the breeding capital of oops litters and Missouri is well known for puppy mills. Just generalizing of course :D , not saying that you are ;) Anyways, I hope all goes well for you and you have a healthy litter of pups :)

[J's crew]

Well, I am sure you expected some of us to be upset and I know I am. I spend all my waking hours trying to find homes for and caring for dogs that were abused, abandoned, or neglected. Your pups, from parents that have not proven themselves worthy of being bred are taking up homes that should be going to dogs sitting on death row. Another thing that upsets me is that your a member of Chaz. You should know better. :(

Sorry to rain on your parade but I find it very sad.

I honestly mean it when I say it though.....good luck, I hope it works out well for your female and her pups.

[bubbatd]

What's been done ...is done . Right now I'm more concerned with the whelping ...... please get her out of the closet !!! If she won't move now , as soon as 1st pup arrives move it to your prepared whelping pen ....she'll happily follow . You've had 2 months to prepare for this .....and you've been a member here long enough to know how most of us feel . So ...... bless the young mommy and the little ones ......... hopefully you know what's ahead and that you'll be very busy the next 8 weeks .

[Red_ACD_for_me]

While I totally understand that what is done is done, the fact remains that as a member of Chaz (lab breeder) and someone who has common knowledge or education is how you can just go and let your dogs have an OOPS litter in the first place :( I mean with a name like lab breeder, obviously you plan on being one. Just thought that being on Chaz things would be done a little more responsibly ;)

[RedyreRottweilers]

When an "oops" happens, people ask for advice and make a plan on what to do.

There were options open to you that would have prevented this litter from happening.

Can't blame the dogs, and I hope she gets through it healthy. Shame on you, tho. You know better.

[bubbatd]

For lurkers . There are no excuses for a " whoops " . I had 3 intact males and 2 females living together . Any normal male will be interested as the females starts to come into heat . At this point the female rejects the male . The owner now knows , checks the female and separates . Sure , they may not mate , but why put both through anguish ? But please ....let's get those baby's whelped , Mom checked , and 8 weeks of TLC !!!

[Mach1girl]

People, what's done is DONE!

Been there, done that.....C'mon people. Did any of you know since she has been a member here for awhile, that her dog was pregnant? THAT was the time to rant and demeanor, not now. Now is the time to make sure she is ready for these pups and she knows what to do and expect. And she REALLY needs to know that you are here for her if she needs you, as I once had to do.
Obviously, she KNOWS that our shelters are full of dogs, they are getting PTS every day, especially this breed, she had to have known this before the breeding took place, so, FOR the PUPPIES sake,and the mommas sake, stick around and assist.
I know no one has been totally rude YET, just wanted to say my piece before it happens. This is a time that members need to stick together, there is always a later for what need be. Hope all goes well, and hope all stay healthy.
Next time, be more careful...
Afterwards, do what you will...

[bubbatd]

You know I'm in the mom's and pups corner !

[Zoom]

Mach, she never posted that her dog was pregnant. She hasn't been here since like...December. If she had, you know what sort of responses she would have gotten. But she waited until the pups are getting ready to be born so we can't tell her to get the mismate shot or go spay/neuter her dogs.

[bubbatd]

I'm with Zoom ..... we were in the dark until now . So let's rally behind the whelp . She may need our help . It's like a teenage pregnancy .....it sure isn't the pups' fault !

[Brattina88]

I'm a little confused as to why everyone immeadiatly thinks this is an accidental breeder? Maybe I'm misreading somewhere???

Her SN is LabBreeder, and the website is all about Durden Labs. Gunnar was born in March of 2006...
here (http://www.geocities.com/silentwolf69x@sbcglobal.net/healthguarantee.html) is the guarentee on their pups...

... I don't even know what else to say...

But I hope the mom and pups well! LB, Let is know if you have any questions or help with anything !!

[Momof2Pups]

I'm a little confused as to why everyone immeadiatly thinks this is an accidental breeder? Maybe I'm misreading somewhere???

Her SN is LabBreeder, and the website is all about Durden Labs. Gunnar was born in March of 2006...
here (http://www.geocities.com/silentwolf69x@sbcglobal.net/healthguarantee.html) is the guarentee on their pups...

... I don't even know what else to say...

But I hope the mom and pups well! LB, Let is know if you have any questions or help with anything !!
Because of these parts of her post:

I may or may not be able to respond any time soon, so try to keep the questions minimal for now. I'm using the libraries computer (across the street from our new home).
Update first: We moved into our own 2 bedroom home a little over a month ago. Tira and Gunner have the second bedroom to themselves at night and when we are gone. We leave the blinds up so they can see outside and have plenty of sun. We also leave the t.v. on Animal Planet so they aren't completely bored/lonely. We also have a new (to us) '95 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Our old red pick up seized up on us finally and will NOT start no matter what. :( Oh well, maybe someone will want it for parts. :)

Now, on to the part that I would normally hate to mention in here but will because I know alot of you would want to know and will not criticise to much.
Tira and Gunner hooked up 1/23 at 9pm. We went to the vet when she was 43 days along and were told to come back in a week for an x-ray because they couldn't feel anything doing the abdominal palpitations. Tira was to tense and tight. We went back last Tuesday (a week ago today) and had an x-ray done. There are 3 (possibly 4) pups. The latest she would have them would be Thursday...however, her temp has been below 100 for 24 hrs now and she started nesting early this morning. She didn't like the place I prepared for her in their room but decided that she'd rather be in the closet by our bed. Gunner is a year old, her shots are up to date, the pups seem very healthy (x-ray looked good and they kick and roll alot) and 2 are already promised to good homes. One is going to a vet assistant and the other to one of Tony's teachers at M.A.C.
I have a health guarantee covering eyes, hips and general health upon purchase. I also have copies of both of their pedigrees, basic care info, breed info, a questionaire for the potential owners as well as a few other things that escape me at the time. We are going to be available for the life time of the pups and are requesting pictures and progress reports as they grow. Neut/spay is required, having our last name in the pups registered name required, any breach of contract (pup being left outside, not being cared for, etc) we'll take them back and if they move or can't take care of the pups for any reason to bring them back to us. I think I did pretty good. There is more in the contract, but those are the basics. If you have any other additions that you think would be necessary or an improvement just let me know. I will be checking in on here sometime in the next few days/weeks.

The pups will also be listed for sale in the breeder section of AKC's website. I just want healthy pups and we'll be happy. If we can't find acceptable homes, regardless of selling price, we plan on keeping them (of course). I have at least 15 questions that a potential buyer must answer and that I must approve of before I will even take a deposit, much less let them have a pup.

Try not to criticise, what's done is done. If we'd been in our own place with them inside they wouldn't have mated in the first place. Since it happened, and she's going to have them sometime tonight or tomorrow and we have boned up on as much info as we possibly could in the past 60 days...it's just a matter of waiting now. I won't be able to post pictures but I will be taking pictures and will describe them in detail when I get the chance. I will be very busy over the next 8 weeks (and beyond) but will do my best to come by.

I will be off Tues and Thurs and Tony will be in school those days. I will be working during the week between 8a and 8p. Tony will have 4 days of 5-8. We're pretty much set so someone will be home with the pups.


We're very excited, nervous, anxious and worried. Gonna be grandparents!

COOL

[OutlineACDs]

http://www.geocities.com/silentwolf69x@sbcglobal.net/

And if you even glance at this it shows nothing but pure byb to me.

[doberkim]

When an "oops" happens, people ask for advice and make a plan on what to do.

There were options open to you that would have prevented this litter from happening.

Can't blame the dogs, and I hope she gets through it healthy. Shame on you, tho. You know better.

Yes, shame on you. Up until a few months ago, you could barely afford to live, and you're bringing puppies into the world? what happens if she god forbid needs a c-section at 2 am?

There's no excuse - keeping two intact animals with no health testing, no titling, no proof that they are worthy of being bred except that they both have working male and female parts, and now there are puppies from them. I don't know what you thought WOULD happen? A male that has no right to be bred, he's not even the MINIMAL age for appropriate health testing much less that he's still really a puppy himself... *shakes head*

I hope that everything goes well for her and that the puppies are healthy. And I hope you learn your lesson - though I seriously doubt it.

[ravennr]

I'm confused, I thought, by the website, that Gunner was the male?

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Thanks for posting that Outline, BYB you say :rolleyes:

*Our Labs are only bred 2x per year to insure a healthy mother and pups*.
So, basically you will breed your bitch every season which is twice a year, great for her :(



All puppies are vaccinated and dewormed prior to sale.



Distinct otter tail, blocky heads, shiny coats, hunting...field...or companion.




About her boyfriend:

Tira's boyfriend is an AKC registered chocolate Lab. He is only 5 1/2 weeks old now, but he'll be her husband once he's old enough to mate. They are going to be our top couple at Durden's Labrador Retrievers.

Litter available in the spring of 2007. Blacks and Chocolates. E-mail for info..
LOOKS LIKE THIS LITTER WAS PLANNED AFTERALL :yikes:






Top Quality Labs with hunting/field pedigree.

Dislikes:
Likes:


- apples

- lightning

- when you ignore her and she wants to play.

[Brattina88]

Because of these parts of her post:
I see your point. However, I'm still not convinced ;)

edit: guess we're posting at the same time Red_ACD. I guess now's not the time for an I-told-you-so dance :p
edit my edit: nevermind... no need to preach to the choir. heh

[jess2416]

I'm a little confused as to why everyone immeadiatly thinks this is an accidental breeder? Maybe I'm misreading somewhere???

Her SN is LabBreeder, and the website is all about Durden Labs. Gunnar was born in March of 2006...
here (http://www.geocities.com/silentwolf69x@sbcglobal.net/healthguarantee.html) is the guarentee on their pups...

... I don't even know what else to say...

But I hope the mom and pups well! LB, Let is know if you have any questions or help with anything !!

Ditto ^^ it even says on her website that a litter was planned for spring of 07...

OMG....its the spring of '07 NOW :yikes:

Anyhoo, whats done is done, and I wish the best for Tira, but Im not really sure what to say to you right now...:(
You knew when Tira was going to come into heat, and you could've taken measures to prevent this, but I honestly dont think thats what you even attempted to do...

Good luck...thats about all I can say

[Momof2Pups]

Wow, yep, it does say so on her site. And it's not like the mention of having a litter is covering up for now because it says when she posted that was when Gunner was 5.5 weeks old. . .but her OP in this thread makes it sound like an accident. . .

[ChRotties]

I looked at the guarantee and website, and for one thing, hips can't be certified til the age of 2 yrs. with OFA.

Sorry, I don't buy the "oops" ....

If it walks, talks and acts like a duck, it's a duck.
In this case, byb.

[coteyr]

Wow, when i first read this, i felt like "poor dogs, got "oopsed" because of a move" I wanted to wish the owner a lucky birthing and pray that she either alters one or both of the dogs after the fact. But after seeing the site, it seems planned (which is silly and I am not even a breeder) The Guarantee, seems a bit much too. I hope all the puppies find good homes. good luck to the mom.

[Lizmo]

I'm not sure what to say. If this was planned...I am very ashamed that I looked up to you as a person I thought highly of here. But even then you knew when she would come into heat and you could have prevented this from happening. I am not sure I would call LB a BYB yet, but it's not the far away.

I hope Tire is able to make it through this litter easily and then will be spayed ASAP.

[MafiaPrincess]

Bragging you breed 'only' twice a year with one bitch is pretty byb even if the litter *was* accidental, which only appears to be a cover up.

[~Jessie~]

Hmmm... and how ironic how the OP leaves in December and comes back now with the news :rolleyes:

Wow, how nice to only breed your bitches twice a year... funny how bitches go into heat conveniently twice a year.

There is no excuse for an 'accidental' litter. None.

[~Jessie~]

Also, no good breeder would dual register a dog with APRI (*cough* American Puppy Mill Registry).

Our female is an AKC & APRI (dual registered) black Lab named Black Tear of Cheyene.

It does say Gunnar is the male... strange:

Our male is an AKC registered chocolate male, named Top Notch Gunner, with the characteristic blocky head, soft mouth and great conformation.

So, it's okay to skip health testing if either the bitch of the dog's grandparents had it done?! :rolleyes:

Our dams grandparents and great grandparents had OFA certs of Excellent and Good.


Yup. Sounds like a planned breeding to me:

Gunner is currently 4 months old (born in March '06) and is developing into a sturdy, blocky, Lab with a very nice coat and beautiful conformation and temperement. If all goes well, he will sire in '07.

*Sigh*

[showpug]

This breeding was intentional. You know when a bitch is in heat and you are smart enought to figure out a way to separate two dogs and you didn't. You wanted to breed Labs and now you have. I hope dam and pups make it safe and sound and as much as I hope a spay and neuter will follow this breeding, I know it wont. :(

[dr2little]

*shakes head* What next?

Like Grammy says, for the lurkers....THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS SELFISH, IGNORANT NONSENSE. THE OP SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BE ASHAMED. POOR DOGS:mad: :mad: :mad:

For those who are not familiar with the OP, search some of her more recent posts to see the conditions that the family and therefore the dogs live in and the total lack of knowledge or basic care or concern with regards to breeding these dogs.

[lvmommy]

and of course she is using a library computer so she can't reply right away...right.. I bet she is reading every post

[bubbatd]

I am so disappointed now after reading more . I trust people's intentions too mucn . Especially when they've been on the forum for this long . Sad .

[~Jessie~]

Look at her first post :eek:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26449

[lvmommy]

Look at her first post :eek:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26449

I think that says it all :mad:

[MafiaPrincess]

Guess not much was learned between then and now. Lot of talk, not much learning except how to attempt to lie to cover yourself.

[IliamnasQuest]

I hope the pups will be on a limited registration and that good homes that will spay/neuter will be the emphasis (and NOT price .. these are pups coming from non-proven, non-health tested stock and therefore do not warrant a high price in any way).

An "oops" simply means "I wasn't paying attention at a time when I should have been" .. and in this particular situation, all the signs point toward this being a deliberate breeding anyway.

You know what frustrates me even more than anything else? Even with all the dogs in shelters and rescues, there's a place for responsible breeders out there. There's a place for breeders who are doing their best to breed quality dogs from breeding stock that is proven to be genetically healthy, conformationally correct, intelligent and excellent examples of the breed. You could have tried to be one of these breeders, but instead you made the choice (and it WAS a choice) to just breed two dogs that happened to have registration papers. THIS is the type of breeder that makes people dislike breeders.

And if this HAD been an "oops" .. a responsible breeder would have said "okay, I've made a mistake but I still want to be responsible .. my dogs have not completed the qualifications to be worthy of breeding and it is completely wrong to bring puppies into the world until then .. so I will go the vet and get the mismate shot and then make D*MN sure not to make this mistake again".

Yep, that's what a responsible human being would have done.

I do hope your bitch does well with whelping and that everything goes fine. I'm sure no one wishes you ill in any way. But what you have done was completely WRONG - you KNOW it too - and if you came here thinking people would say "oooooohh, PUPPIES!!" then you're wrong in that too.

Please, make sure you find the best of homes, have spay/neuter contracts, only offer limited registration so that no offspring of these dogs can be bred, and make money the LEAST of your considerations in selling these pups.

And then get your dogs health-tested, get some titles going, either have your bitch spayed or put her on cheque drops to keep her out of heat, and make an effort to show that you are willing to be RESPONSIBLE.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[ChRotties]

I went back and read their intro posts...this was planned.
Just another byb out for $$.

[coteyr]

I'm new can someone please define BYB?

Second, this might be an incorrect thought but there are two forms of breeding that I don't get upset at. The first is breeding to better the breed. This is certenly not it. To better the breed n my mind there needs to be some outstanding attribute that you desire to breed into the existing breed. (size, weight, temperment, etc.) I would never attempt this version ever. I don't know enough. Every dog I have ever had has been altered, or was kept a very close watch of during the proper times. ( I don't like fixing dogs when there older there is an aperent mood change (perhaps percived) and they don't seem to be the same as before, but puppies (before sexual maturity) are fine and don't seem effected one bit. (I do agree with shelters no-non-altered dogs can be adopted rule even if it means older dogs get altered, why risk it)

Anyway the second reason that I can like (and here is where the disagreements will come in) Is on farms, or other big wide open spaces, where puppies are desireable even though not for "breeding" purpouses. Theres a very thin line between this in an acceptable form for me, and a non-acceptable form. If you get two non-altered dogs and decide to keep them that way, and decide to let them breed, with the intention of just having more puppies around the farm, then I am O.K. with this (although I think a better option is to go to the pound). If however there is money involved, or it's an accident, any other reason then you want more pups on your farm (can't think of why but I'm still ok with it) then I think it's wrong.

This is not either of thoes cases.

[Boemy]

BYB stands for backyard breeder and refers to breeders who breed irresponsibly--because of greed, ignorance, or other reasons. It covers a wide range. The lady who breeds her dog because "he has papers" or "because she's so sweet, everyone will want her sweet puppies" is a backyard breeder. Someone who breeds "because everyone wants a Breed XYZ right now" or "labradoodles are hot right now" is also a BYB. Hope that helps. :)

To the OP: Shame on you. Shame on you.

[tempura tantrum]

Gah. This is just ridiculous.

Obviously the breeding was planned- and obviously, this person doesn't know the first thing about establishing a respectable breeding program.

For one, it's absolutely ridiculous to assume that you could look at a 5 month old PUPPY and already determine his good points and bad points- determine that he is the BEST match for your particular bitch. That where she falters, he excells, and that he compliments her. Nevermind the fact that you can't test for hip dysplasia or patellar luxation until the animal is two.

And in a breed where these problems RUN RAMPANT.

Siiiigh....

[~Jessie~]

Yep, Boemy covered it. I've had people argue with me that "the cute elderly couple down the street who are breeding their 2 poodles for fun" are not BYBs. Yes, they are.

A breeder who doesn't show or work their dogs... who doesn't health test... who breeds every heat... who breeds young females... who uses pseudo registries such as APRI... who is breeding their dogs because they are cute... who is breeding to show their children the 'miracle' of life... who is breeding dogs completely out of breed standards... who is breeding mixed breeds... who is breeding for profit... is a backyard breeder.

[~Jessie~]

Gah. This is just ridiculous.

Obviously the breeding was planned- and obviously, this person doesn't know the first thing about establishing a respectable breeding program.

For one, it's absolutely ridiculous to assume that you could look at a 5 month old PUPPY and already determine his good points and bad points- determine that he is the BEST match for your particular bitch. That where she falters, he excells, and that he compliments her. Nevermind the fact that you can't test for hip dysplasia or patellar luxation until the animal is two.

And in a breed where these problems RUN RAMPANT.

Siiiigh....

I also love how people will say their dog has perfect confirmation... when the dog has never been shown or evaluated by a judge. Argh.

[IliamnasQuest]

Just to add a touch more reality to this situation ..

I am very much into health testing and think ALL breeders should health test their dogs for the appropriate genetic diseases prior to breeding. Khana just had her OFA x-rays taken today even though I may never breed her. To me, if you're a breeder and you are not health testing your breeding stock, you are IRRESPONSIBLE and definitely a BYB (at best).

So I took a look at the pedigree listed for the bitch in this situation (the pedigree is on one of the scattered webpages). No pedigree was listed for the male puppy used in the breeding.

Then I went to the OFA website where the results are listed. I looked into all the dogs on the pedigree. I even tried some variations of names (like "Beaver Creek" and "Beavercreek" just in case). This is what I came up with - the information in parantheses is what I added in (sorry about the way the "pedigree" is listed, it's how I found it on the website):

Black Tear of Cheyene (No OFA certifications listed)

Sire: Beaver Creek Doc SH (No OFA certifications listed)
Dam: Christian's Cricket (No OFA certifications listed)

Grandsires:
Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 2000 category D, probably PPM)
Chuck Wagon Parker Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)

Granddams:
Beaver Creeks hammerin Bepee Blk (OFA hips: E, CERF 2000)
Kim's Yauhannah Baby Blk (No OFA certifications listed)

Gread grandsires:
Rushcreek's Bronco Chief MH Blk (OFA hips: E, CERF 1993 - sire to Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae)
FC AFC Hammerin' Hawk Blk (OFA hips: E - sire to Beaver Creeks Hammerin Bepee)
Hot Fudge Sudnay Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)
Santee River Shane Blk (No OFA certifications listed)

Great granddams:
Beaver Creek's Monkey Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1996, 1997 - dam to Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae)
Troublesome Dandy MH Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1996, 1999 - dam to Beaver Creeks Hammerin Bepee)
Queen Of My Heart Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)
Santee River Abigail Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1993)

In summary:
15 dogs listed (including bitch that was bred).
7 dogs with OFA hip numbers (47%)
6 dogs with CERF's, one of those is diagnosed w/a condition (40% clear, 33% non-diagnosed)
NO OFA elbows.
NO OFA patellas.
NO OFA thyroid.
Only 33% of the first two generations in "Cheyenne's" pedigree is OFA'd hips.


And only four of the 15 dogs have any sort of title .. 27% are titled.

Those numbers just aren't very high. This is not a dog that should have been bred based on background, as far as I can tell.

Like I said, let's hope for spay/neuter requirements, limited registrations, and more consideration before any more breeding is done.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[moe]

This "breeder" had every opportunity to do things right. the "breeder" could have given it time to have health tests done, shown the dogs and get them titled, the "breeder" could then have come onto this forum announced a PLANNED litter and we would have all have praised their glory for doing such a fine job, and would have earned respect from all quarters, instead the "breeder" decided to breed from dogs not of the age to breed from, not had health tests, not titled the dogs, and this was all PLANNED from the offset, IMO the OP made the post to upset members on here, as they KNEW full well they had mated the dogs INTENTIONALLY no oops litter here whatsoever, and now they want us all to think kindly upon them:yikes: from what I can make out the OP has been having financial problems in the past, so these pups are a way of making money, I hope the dam copes with the birthing process, I hope the pups are OK for their sake not the "breeders" and as for the "breeder" SHAME ON YOU.

Mo

[Red_ACD_for_me]

WOW! Lots of responses after I went to bed! I just have to say that this is the second forum I have been on where the OP's have been a long time member and have added their opinions in many threads learned far more than they have showed by still allowing there dogs to have an accidental breeding :rolleyes: I would be ashamed to post such a thing :(

[Spirit2010]

yes, what has been done is done. I wish you much luck! And you should get some good advice, instead. :) Because she is going to have them, you will learn from your mistakes. ;) ya know? You probably will watch it next time. All you want is advice, and you should get that. I know most people are upset, but, its done, so we can't do anything about it now. So, I hope you get some more advice, because she is in labor now, and you need all the advice you can get, I am sorry I haven't helped you any. I too am ashamed at such a thing, but I do believe you need advice.

[ChRotties]

The fact that the OP would wait until the poor bitch is due to whelp to seek advice is sooo...irresponsible to say the least. Common sense would tell anyone in this situation to seek the advice of a vet or better yet, RESPONSIBLE breeders of my chosen breed.....

This poor bitch was treated as an afterthought. If in fact, the OP is using a library computer, isn't any advice offered here going to be a day late and a dollar short to start with??

These *cough*gag* breeders make me sick.

[Miakoda]

People, what's done is DONE!

Been there, done that.....C'mon people. Did any of you know since she has been a member here for awhile, that her dog was pregnant? THAT was the time to rant and demeanor, not now. Now is the time to make sure she is ready for these pups and she knows what to do and expect. And she REALLY needs to know that you are here for her if she needs you, as I once had to do.
Obviously, she KNOWS that our shelters are full of dogs, they are getting PTS every day, especially this breed, she had to have known this before the breeding took place, so, FOR the PUPPIES sake,and the mommas sake, stick around and assist.
I know no one has been totally rude YET, just wanted to say my piece before it happens. This is a time that members need to stick together, there is always a later for what need be. Hope all goes well, and hope all stay healthy.
Next time, be more careful...
Afterwards, do what you will...

Oh geez. Do you really want me to post all your contradicting lies on how your female got pregnant? Intentional, accident, gift from hubby, etc. etc. Don't even got there.

Second, I'm with the vast majority that think something should've been done to prevent this litter. The simplest thing would've been to keep them separated & I've got a friend with a 5 year old girl who understands that concept. Funny how many adults don't. But since that wasn't the case, a spay/abort should've been done. And the male neutered while at it.

Third, I'm tired of excuses. All these "accidental" bybs make themselves out to be victims. Grow up.:rolleyes:

[joce]

I'm just dissapointed.

Labbreeder came here and knew nothing and weeks later she was telling people about responcible breeding-then you do this:o

I also think ooops it was a mistake is a huge out-having had intact dogs all my life we have never had an ooops litter-not even a almost. And I know if it ever did happen that dog would be fixed the next day!


She knew what she should have done and knew her choices-its just sad.

As far as not everyone hip testing etc-if a dogs line is proven I have no problme buying form someone who doesn't health test. I know a couple people out here with breeds they ahve hunted or herded with for years-these farm dogs are pushed to the edge and if they have old dogs doing good at there place I won't be upsett they didn't test hips. But this is completely diffrent with someone breeding labs in there backyard.

[stevinski]

If it was a oops litter, than being the reponsible breeder you claim to be

you would have an emergency spay

[J's crew]

Another thing that upsets me is she said in the past that her dogs were outside tied up. How does she know for sure that Gunner is the sire? If the breeding took place when she was in heat, tied up, any male could be the sire. :(

[Doberluv]

Unfortunately, there are too many people in this world, who, whether they know better or not, choose to produce more puppies in an irresponsible way. These people could be led through shelter after shelter, see puppies and adult dogs getting the needle injected into them, see the miserable, lonely homeless dogs that desperately need homes and still.... put their dogs together to make more puppies. They figure, since they will get homes, it's all fine and dandy. They don't think that instead of their puppies getting homes, that maybe some of those shelter dogs could be the ones getting those homes. They don't want to think about it because that will upset their agenda of making a few bucks. And that is first and formost to them, no matter what the morals of this are.

A few people who come on these forums, planning on breeding their untested dogs can be educated, have things explained and they decide not to breed their dogs. They become educated and have morals... and putting those two things together, cause them to change course and do the responsible thing. There has to be those two factors; education AND morals. When one of those is absent, the chances are high that they'll breed substandard, untested dogs anyhow.

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Be sure to make the buyers sign a spay/neuter contract although getting them all fixed before adopting them out (yes it can be done at 8 weeks, some dont agree with it but myself being involved in rescue & seeing plenty of papered labs up for adoption makes me believe in it) would be a better idea.

Not much else to say, nothing nice to say.

good luck.

[Laurelin]

I also think ooops it was a mistake is a huge out-having had intact dogs all my life we have never had an ooops litter-not even a almost. And I know if it ever did happen that dog would be fixed the next day!
.

I never get that excuse personally. I've had many occasions where we've had intact dogs- sometimes of both sexes. Never once have we had a litter. Never once did one of our intact males sire a litter nor did our intact females in heat EVER get pregnant. It's not that hard to keep intact dogs with no problems. The thing is you actually have to put out an effort and watch them.

Anyways, I agree, I hope the pregnancy goes alright and same with the birthing.

Everything else I want to say has been said I believe. :(

[otch1]

Agree with posts. This is rather silly. Why are these people even posting the announcement of a litter when they already know what everyone's opinion is going to be? I believe it's to solicit an interest in the puppies, in hopes someone will contact them to purchase one. They're obviously some couple that got ahold of a nice pet quality lab and decided "oh, it has papers. We can make some money off of her!" Then another breeder made the mistake of selling them another obvious "pet quality" lab without a spay/neuter contract and they're in business! They made up a kennel name, took some cute pictures, created a website and locked these 2 dogs in an apt bedroom and now have that "spring 2007 litter" they'd advertised, on the way. One's too young to breed, no health tests done, they're pet quality dogs, in an inappropriate environment with people that know very little about dogs. The best one can hope for is that they have a healthy litter and find responsible homes for them that will not try to duplicate what they did, but rather spay and neuter. Then they alter their own dogs before this happens again and they're kicked out of their apt. With the potential for a 7 to 8 pup litter, I don't know of many landlords that are going to allow up to 10 labs, pups and adults in a 2 bd. apt. Have a feeling that's why mom is being allowed to stay in closet verses them having built an appropriate whelping box in their living room. Sad.

[adoptashelterpettoday]

I also wanted to bring up the fact that Tira is listed everywhere as "gunner's mate". Yeah I am thinking it probably isnt too accidental. Said they have been preparing for 60 days.

"and she's going to have them sometime tonight or tomorrow and we have boned up on as much info as we possibly could in the past 60 days..."

As well "Tira and Gunner hooked up 1/23 at 9pm. "

Um..they know the exact date/time, so yeah....


Um..that says planned pregnany to me.

[bubbatd]

^^^ agree ! I know people have knocked me before for saying this .... but stay away from on line kennels !!!! No one needs to sell this way if they are good breeders !

[DanL]

I like how in the "contract" that if you allow OFA to publish their results on your pup you get then you void the guarantee. Why would you not want the public to know how your pups rate?

This is a horrible situation. I feel bad for the dogs.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Well, DanL, that prevents any non passing results from being posted at OFA. You know, that discourages puppy buyers, and we certainly would not want people planning breedings to get their hands on that info, now would we?

My contract is the 180 degree opposite. Gotta check the box to release ALL results, good bad or indifferent.

Excuse me, I need to leave the desk for a moment, I'm feeling sick.

[otch1]

This post is for Lab-breeder directly. I thought I should make sure I had all of the facts before making possible assumptions. So, I did skim thru your posts. You were a pet owner with one unaltered black Lab, that then went out and bought another Lab with the intent of breeding them. These are not "champion" dogs, from Ch. lines. you do not show, you have no experience as a Lab breeder. Your posts indicate a lack of knowlege and experience about breeding dogs in general. Why, when you do not have a permanent home, do not have a kennel or even a fenced yard and are now in a 2 bd. apt, are you creating a website about your breeding business and breeding these 2 pets? I'm calling you on this because you're doing exactly as others have done and have been ridiculed for, in different threads. I read your responses to these people and you called them "backyard breeders." Referance your post #18 on thread "Breeding my chihuahuas (help!!)" I find this very hypocritical. On the otherhand, I also see you are very young and possibly having had some financial hardships. Please believe me when I say breeding dogs is not the way to try to make money. It can be heart breaking when there are medical problems you can not afford address. Testing that should be done before breeding, that you also can't afford. Or worse, if your landlord finds out you're doing this and you're evicted. An apt. is not a place to start a breeding business, even if your landlord were aware of this. I hope you will spay and neuter your pets after this litter and enjoy your dogs in some other way. Obedience competiton, agility, tracking, therapy work. They look like wonderful dogs and there are so many things you can do with them other than breeding. I understand the temptation to try to find additional income when things are tight, but you've read about the many, many people posting here that are doing the same thing and in some of your responses even you have acknowleged this is wrong. I hope you'll convince Tony altering the dogs is the right thing to do.

[Julie]

Aww.... Labbreeder, I really thought you "got" educated here at chaz... I would have expected this when you first joined, but I really thought you had a change of heart and mind.
All the people who sat here typing trying to help you learn the right ways, did we waste our time?
I had a slight idea that you might have ended up breeding them, but I would have at least thought you would have done all the medical tests, and started your dogs in something or some kind of work.

Well anyway, I sure hope everything goes well, for Tira's and the puppies sake.

[Mach1girl]

Miakoda, Dont EVEN seek me out amongst the many posters here on this forum and try to make this post about ME!

There was NO CONTRADICTION to any of what happened with me, other then the twisting many people did of the ORIGINAL story.


I NEVER said that I SUPPORTED the OP, however I did say that it was too darn late now to do anything except make sure the pups were born safely at THIS TIME. That's all.

So please dont go twisting things around again. And dont hijack someone elses post.

Besides, didn't I do the right thing by what happened???Didnt I keep most of the litter? Didnt I make sure all turned out just peachy??

Yeah, thought so. So PLEASE leave me alone and quit stalking all my posts that relate to the litter that "happened" over a year ago. Besides, dont you have a family now that needs some attention? Playing internet warrior is unbecoming of you, you should stop.

[bubbatd]

^^^^ yes, it's so disheartening to those of us who have tried so hard to educate and help .

[Mach1girl]

Grammy, just noticed how many posts you have made!!!!23,297!Wow!

[Renee750il]

Look, Mach1girl has already taken her lumps for that and learned some hard lessons, but she learned them, and one thing we do here is respect people who learn from their mistakes.

So, let's get on with things and leave past dramas where they belong - in the past :)

[Lizmo]

I agree with, Renee. Mach has learned from her mistakes. That's all you can ask and expect.

[~Tucker&Me~]

*sigh*

I can't say I didn't see it coming :rolleyes:

~Tucker

[Momof2Pups]

Look, Mach1girl has already taken her lumps for that and learned some hard lessons, but she learned them, and one thing we do here is respect people who learn from their mistakes.

So, let's get on with things and leave past dramas where they belong - in the past :)
I agree. ;)

[bubbatd]

Mach ....I think 1/2 those posts had to be to ,bashing , for , against, supporting and praising you !!! Whew !!! You sure wore me out , gal !

[Miakoda]

Mach, I wasn't trying to make this post about you. Not everything in life is about you. ;)

I'm just saying that you aren't the most reputable person to be taking advice from on how to deal with this situation.

The remainder of my post was directed at the o.p. & to anyone else who reads it & thinks "oh ****....that sounds like me." :)

[Mach1girl]

I'm just saying that you aren't the most reputable person to be taking advice from on how to deal with this situation.

:)

Ummm, considering what I have been thru, here and elsewhere and what happened, I think I am a great person to give advice on the subject. Been there, experienced it first hand!

And as far as everything being about me.....Nah, dont think so, it is just when someone tries to turn things around, I have learned to catch it early. Enough is enough on the subject of me and no one should have to bring up negatives again!

[LabBreeder]

I only read the first page and I believe that's all I WANT to read.
Somehow I have a feeling some of you (the very callous ones) will say that what happened next is something I deserved....to all of you that DO say this...may you ROT!!!

We had 2 beautiful, healthy puppies. A boy and a girl. 1.5 lbs and 1.2 lbs respectively. They have the build of their father. Who is, btw, a year old.

The sad part....:(
There was a 3rd puppy (the "iffy" one on the x-ray). He did not come out. We went to the vets and they gave us oxytosin to induce labor again...it didn't work. Tira had to have a c-section. Our beautiful little boy didn't make it. They said he was underdeveloped and that even if he'd been born right after the second one he still wouldn't have made it. They gave him oxygen and tried to keep him going. His lungs were full of gunk and he couldn't breathe on his own. :(
If he had lived we were going to name him "Miracle" and keep him. He is buried in our back yard with a large cross at the head.
Tira is recovering nicely and is doing great with the pups. They both have homes already (before they were even born) and hopefully the next 8 weeks will go well.



I'm sorry most of you feel so....unhappy...about what happened. I am very pleased with the 2 we have...but am VERY VERY SAD about the one we lost. I cried so hard when I knew he was gone that I got a migraine and really don't want to breed her again.


If anyone has anything positive to say I would appreciate it. If anyone wants any further updates I will be happy to comply, otherwise this may be the last post on this thread.

[LabBreeder]

Agree with posts. This is rather silly. Why are these people even posting the announcement of a litter when they already know what everyone's opinion is going to be? I believe it's to solicit an interest in the puppies, in hopes someone will contact them to purchase one. They're obviously some couple that got ahold of a nice pet quality lab and decided "oh, it has papers. Our female is a very good hunting dog that comes from great hunting stock, FYI.We can make some money off of her!" I never had the intention of making money off of her or her pups but rather wanted to carry on her hunting lines if possible.Then another breeder made the mistake of selling them another obvious "pet quality" lab without a spay/neuter contract and they're in business! They made up a kennel name, Everyone "makes up" a name...otherwise you'd all be nameless.took some cute pictures, created a website and locked these 2 dogs in an apt bedroom Not an apt dumb!@$$. They had to be outside for 4 months due to a previous situation and are now inside dogs, just as they were before.and now have that "spring 2007 litter" they'd advertised, on the way. One's too young to breedNeither are to young. , no health tests done, they're pet quality dogs, in an inappropriate environment with people that know very little about dogs. The best one can hope for is that they have a healthy litter and find responsible homes for them that will not try to duplicate what they did, but rather spay and neuter. Then they alter their own dogs before this happens again and they're kicked out of their apt.Again, not in an apartment...if you'd bother to find out or pay attention to what has been said before you speak. With the potential for a 7 to 8 pup litterAgain, I said it was 2/3...pay attention., I don't know of many landlords that are going to allow up to 10 labs, pups and adults in a 2 bd. apt. Have a feeling that's why mom is being allowed to stay in closet verses them having built an appropriate whelping box in their living room. Sad.She had her "appropriate whelping box" and CHOSE to go to a closet because it was near us. She is in her appropriate are now and the 2 pups are perfectly fine. I would never, ever keep my dogs in a closet. But you don't know me and wouldn't care to so bug off. :mad:

[Boemy]

One year old IS too young because it's not old enough to test the hips, elbows, etc.

[Julie]

LB, just curious what color were the pups?

[Buddy'sParents]

Poor Tira, Gunnar and pups. At the hands of irresponsibility.

Shame, shame on your Kim. Shame. :( :mad:

[Brattina88]

pics?? :)

[bubbatd]

May the pups do well and you take your kennel site off the internet .

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I hope you get Tira spayed so she doesn't have anymore pups......If she didn't whelp well the first time then next time may not be any better :(

[RedyreRottweilers]

What positive is there to say?

Unproven untitled dogs with no health testing.

Bred by someone who KNOWS BETTER than this.

Welcome to breeding. It is often as much about death as it is about life.

I hope you will get HEALTH TESTING on your dogs so that the buyers of these puppies will have some idea of what to expect down the line with them.

I hope you will take what you have learned here to heart, and try to do a better job of this in the future.

And if you wanted to continue your "hunting lines", I would suggest finding a nice field titled dog with health testing to send her to at the very least.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

We had 2 beautiful, healthy puppies. A boy and a girl. 1.5 lbs and 1.2 lbs respectively. They have the build of their father. Who is, btw, a year old.



One year old is NOT old enough! Just because they are able to breed at that time doesn't mean they are ready. I am not a breeder and even I know that! You cannot even have all their tests done like hips and patellar luxation until around 2 years. So did you just skip over that extremely important step? what a shame.

Hopefully you warn the new owners that you failed to have them properly tested and there is a chance the pups may have bad hips when they get bigger.

[sparks19]

One year old is NOT old enough! Just because they are able to breed at that time doesn't mean they are ready. I am not a breeder and even I know that! You cannot even have all their tests done like hips and patellar luxation until around 2 years. So did you just skip over that extremely important step? what a shame.

Hopefully you warn the new owners that you failed to have them properly tested and there is a chance the pups may have bad hips when they get bigger.

Yes well this is all a moot point now isn't it.... :rolleyes:

We know how everyone feels and what was done "wrong" but we are WAY past that point now aren't we.

[RD]

I will never say that a puppy deserves to die, however I hope you've learned your lesson. You wouldn't take the advice of people on this board and *gasp* they were RIGHT! Breeding ISN'T all sunshine and daisies! You are surprised at this?

I wish only the best for these little ones, but shame on you, Kim. You should know better. You DO know better.

[Zoom]

And on this note, I'm going to end it. There's too much else going on with other parts of the forum right now.

[bubbatd]

I feel that here is no reason to add to this . May the pups have a great life and never have any related siblings .