playing too rough/bullying/dominance?

[champagne]

ok I thought I would post this even though my daugher has in the forum she goes to. she has gotten some responses but the posts werent too specific.

Kaine is a 6 month old pit bull. He has a few dogs that he has socailized with since being 2 months old. One of them is my daughters boyfriend 1 year old pitty and a friend of her boyfriends a 3 year old pitty. all live in seperate households.
Kaine is nuetered, the other two are intact males. the 1 year old is very laid back. He and kaine will often play together here at my house. Kaine, IMO is a bully to him. He will often bark and growl at him, he clamps down on the mouth of the other dog and at times stands over him while doing this. He will also grab his lip and "hold" him there while both are laying down. I saw Kaine lay his head across the other dogs neck and the 1 year old did not move a muscle untill kaine raised his head. the 1 year old just lays there. in other instances the other dog will sometimes growl back at him.
(there has never been a "fight" nor has there ever been any kind of blood). Kaine does get carried away and sometimes they will make him stop, but i feel they wait too long before stopping him. I wouldnt let it happen at all.
when kaine plays with the 3 year old pit bull, my daughter tells me that it is so different. no growls, barks or anything. the 3 year old is definitely top dog (body language?) and I think Kaine knows this. Kaine does not act the same around him.
I feel that she should intervene as soon as kaine gets this way so he learns what is acceptable play and what is not. I feel that if she doesnt stop him that it will in time escalate as both dogs gets older. I feel kaine is taking advantage of the other dogs personality but Im not sure whether it is bullying or a dominance issue.
I dont think the other dog likes this behavior b/c he gets up and walks away from Kaine.
my daughter thinks that by intervening that it will "ruin" kaine in the sense that he will challenge the dog when he gets older because she didnt let him learn by the other dog "putting him in his place". she thinks that by letting the dog put him in his place now, that as kaine gets older he will know better than to mess (challenge) with the other dog.
I hope this all makes sense, I know its kind of choppy. sorry

she does go in this forum and reads the posts here so Im really hoping you guys can give her your ideas and share your experiences/knowledge with her.
please be specfic as you can be as to why you would or would not want this type of behavior between two dogs.
thanks

[champagne]

anyone have any thoughts?

[gapeach]

Can't give any advice. But our dog does around the same thing with my Mama's dog, so I would like to hear comments too. I didn't want you to think we were ignoring you.

[champagne]

thanks for replying :) I wasn't sure if the thread was working or if it was .. well something people didn't want to respond to. I was feeling quite abandoned though.. I know this is probably something that happens in multi dog homes or like in my case just with doggie friends. just was wondering how others deal with it

[Saje]

I don't really have any advice either but I did want to post and let you know that people will come and post as they come online. It's different from a chat room. Not instant. If it's a hot topic it will stay alive for weeks! So don't feel abandoned - we'll get here when we can. ;)

[champagne]

I posted on the 6th. I guess I wasnt patient enough. It has been showing only one veiwing since the 6th so I thought the thread wasn't working. someone else posted on the same day and it has been showing only one viewing also. sorry

[bubbatd]

It definately has to do with Alpha issue... but I really don't know pit bull issues. I would suggest more interaction with other dogs at this point. Parks, pet stores etc. You don't want him to feel he's "top dog"......wish I could help more. How does he respond when you do the dominance tests ????

[Saje]

No don't appologize! I didn't realize that you had posted a few days ago. Sometimes people come on and expect it to be instant replies - I thought you were one. :D

[Doberluv]

I think you're going to have to keep them seperate. Multiple male dogs often don't get along. Same breed, same sex is often worse. For instance, with Dobermans, it is never, ever advisable to house two males together, whether or not they're neutered. And it makes no difference how well they were socialized. It may well be the same thing with Pits, especially taking into account what they are bred to do. They may well kill eachother. You can try to "train" them into minding you, the "alpha," but instinct in this case will probably prevail. At least, you wouldn't be able to trust them.

My Doberman use to love all other dogs. We went to classes and he was exposed and socialized with many dogs all the time. Then one day he became "dog aggressive." I can't trust him around other dogs off leash. He does fine, however with my other dogs and a few exceptions....my niece's dog whom he grew up playing with from the time I got him and my son's female whom he also played with off and on since he was very, very young.

I hope I'm wrong and maybe Creature Teacher will know some trick or idea for you. I know this must be very hard. I worry about my male Chihuahua and my male Doberman. So far, so good, but my Dobe is only 21 months old. I'm thinking he still has some more maturing to do and he may change.

[champagne]

to bubbatd, dominance issues with us?? not at all. we have had him on NILIF since hes been quite young. not a strict one though but he has to do what we ask first b4 he gets what he wants. We can do anything we want to him. Hes a big baby and he gets alot of attention. He knows alot of commands. also knows quite a few tricks. Hes well mannered and we are currently (my daughter & myself) taking him to dog obedience classes. He is doing really good. No problems there. Hes my daughters dog (shes 18 & still at home). I told her that I would help her raise him. I have been able to spend alot of time with him as I only work part-time. Kaine lives here at home and hes the only dog here.
Im just concerned that if hes allowed to continue this behavior when hes this young with his playmate.. what will happen as both these dogs mature. the other one is only a year old.
they have been playing together since kaine has been 2 months and now that I think about it.. kaine has always been at times "grouchy" with this other dog. hmmm ???
I do realize that they can become dog agressive as they mature. Just was thinking maybe we can do something now that might keep him in check.

just as important I wanted my daugher to see from others what they would do in her shoes.
As you can see from my first post she thinks they should not really be interfering, that the dogs will work it out for themselves. so....I was looking for others experiences and knowledge of dogs to better help her understand what position she should take with him.

[Renee750il]

When my two girls get snarky with each other I break it up and make them behave nicely. Shiva's older, and sometimes wants to bully, but that's not allowed! She gets scolded and, if she's really been aggressively bullying, off she goes to the laundry room!

It can get interesting with two 120+ pound females . . . Of course, Filas aren't by nature dog aggressive as Pits can be; I'd be squashing this behaviour.

[YorkieLover]

This is what I was told in regards to my 2 that were going at it....

Keeping them apart, stopping dominance moves in the middle etc may make it all worse. If she is pinning him and not biting him and making big holes then she is doing the job of a pack leader not an attack.

Most dog altercations are spit and noise - those are the right kind - the ones that leave vet bill causing holes are not.
And if you break up dominance scuffles you can end up with dogs that go to war.

I find that IF I interfere in all of the dominance scuffles, they simply increase in frequency. My smallest eskie is a thief...and an attention hound. The other's
frequently need to remind him that HE does not rule the roost.

I don't interfere UNLESS - they are invading my space with their boy dog nonsense. And then as the one...and true Alpha in my house (LOL) I stop the noise with a one word command - QUIET and a stomp on the floor. I do not "drag" one off another...and I usually get three little black noses stuck in my hands by way of apology. They are ignored for a suitable period of time (about 5 minutes)...and then once quiet has been established, I let them know how much I appreciate QUIET, well behaved dogs.

I can honestly say I followed the suggestions above and stayed out of it once and the nastiness has stopped so far. It was really hard letting them go at it but it really only lasted about 1 minute and I don't believe they even touched each other. And guess what, the one who started it was the one who quit.

[showpug]

I love pit bulls and think that they are great loving dogs towards PEOPLE! BUT, they were bred to fight other dogs and develop dog aggression. As dogs mature this will get worse. I can't imagine male pit bulls playing together, neutered or intact, is a wise idea :(

[Renee750il]

It's a bit different with the big ones, Yorkie. I agree somewhat with letting the little ones work it out to a certain extent, but with the big ones there's only room for ONE boss - YOU. Part of the Boss' job is keeping the other pack members from fighting with each other. When there's a scrum, if one definitely started it, she gets banished for awhile - not dragged off - I'm the boss and they know when I tell them to GIT they'd best find their corner until I tell them to come out. If it was both of them, or if I didn't see who started it, both get sent to their corners - no questions asked.

When I'm ready to lift the banishment, both have to come to me and make up in front of me. I pet both of them together, heads side by side.

The only one who gets a free pass is Bimmer because he's the one who raised them and when he gets after them there's a reason for it. They're not allowed to buck him. I also reinforce him because he's less than half their size. They've got to know that giving him any lip will bring full wrath on their heads.

The only thing is, you'd better be sure you're willing to be the Boss!

[Renee750il]

We need to get Love4Pits input here. She's got several Pits and they live together quite nicely.

[YorkieLover]

Renee, I agree completely with you on mine being smaller and easier to handle... and I agree alot with how you handle yours, I was just pasting in suggestions of what people had told me... And lord knows I value any input you have given me with these munchkins, without a doubt you have helped me get through these past 3 months after we adopted the boys. You've been a true blessing...

[Renee750il]

The little 'uns can be more difficult on some things, but the big 'uns can be downright twitchy on others. When these big dogs get going it's too late to wade in the middle, plus when one challenges the others successfully they can get a bit uppity. Best to have parity among the pack, lol!

[champagne]

thanks everyone for your posts :) I feel they have helped us out thanks again