J's Crew

[RedyreRottweilers]

Originally posted by J's Crew
Originally Posted by stevinski
that may be but the amount of dedication and work redyre puts into her dogs is completely flawless, and the amount of knowledge she has about breeding, and the research she is putting into her future litter put her above most breeders.

True. But, she is planning a breeding with a dog that has DJD. More than one person in the Rott community are VERY against this. She will try and back up her research but frankly IMO there is NO excuse to breed a dog with joint problems. The gene pool of dogs with clean health is too broad, dogs that have all that, and more.

And I wasn't trying to be snide. I DO think it is sad. I just think that alot of the members here think you are currently producing outstanding dogs. Which is not true.

As I stated in the other thread, I have produced NOTHING of merit in my one surviving litter which was born in 1996.

My decision to breed my bitch who has ONE elbow graded DJD1 from OFA, and who was graded as NORMAL in both elbows from OVC, has not been made lightly.

There has been significant interest in this breeding, and at this time I am not taking any more reservations for it.

You would not purchase a puppy from it, nor would you choose to breed her if she were yours. That's fine. Your choice, and your decision.

Breeding decisions should not be based on ONE ITEM. The decision to breed this bitch and the responsibility that goes with it, and the results of it as time goes by, lie with me and her breeder, and no one else.

It is the consensus of a majority of people in this breed that eliminating all dogs who have an elbow rating of DJD grade 1 could be DISASTROUS to this gene pool down the road. NO breed club globally excludes Rottweilers graded DJD1 in the elbows from breeding. Not one. Not Germany, not Sweden, Denmark, all of whom are well known for their stringent requirements for breeding.

It pays to be careful with a tarbrush. It's hard to use one without getting a little on yourself.

You should also be careful with what you state. My bitch does NOT have joint problems. According to OVC in Canada she is normal, and I do not appreciate your characterization of her as having "joint problems".

She is working regularly over jumps in obedience, and being road worked daily, and she is dead sound, as she always has been. I think if she had "joint problems" I would know it by now.

[J's crew]

Your right, my choice. I was responding to a statement that congratulated you on producing fine specimines of your breed. I simply stated my opinion. That's allowed, right?

So, since you want to lay it all out on the table, why after OFA stated she had Degenerative Joint Disease did you go to OVC? Maybe because they are more leaniante (sp)?

And I never said she wasn't sound. But she does have a long line of family with DJD, correct?

[Angel Chicken]

*edited*

[planet molosser]

Breeding 2 clear OFA dogs does NOT produce all Clear OFA dogs.
It is sibling reports and many generations of cleared dogs _that help REDUCE the HD in pups.

OFA clearings are done on 3 Vets opinion. 2 Vets say Fail one says pass the dog fails and vs versa.

They rate BOTH hips together for a rating.

That is why I like Penn hip.

Breeding should be done on a whole package .
Temperament is the #1 killer of most of these big breeds .

Dogs with a borderline rating in one hip does NOT mean they wlll ever have CLINCAL HD. Moderate and or or high ratings are not to be bred.

I have a female with GDC one hip clear one hip grad 1 out of 3.

She produced OFA goods and NO HD in any litter and she is alive and well today at age 10 Working dog.

Now these are facts im not getting between 2 people who may want to battle this out.

Breeding a <clinically> HD affected dog or any dog with inherted disease that requires the intervention of Vets to live is WRONG.

Breeding a dog with many qualities PROVEn with hips scores that are low or too high ( depending on co) is based on that breeders decision and if they stand by the pups they produce _ .

Either way the fact that you guys are xraying and asking the correct questions are a great thing. Missing in action in rare breeds who are bred with NOthing > NO show work ofa or tests.

My question which I can not ask in rare breeds is .
How is the siblings ratings from this failed OFA dog? and what is behind this dog? in HD clearances?
That will tell us all a much clearer picture.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Anyone can go to OFA and check her background.

Since elbow screening only BEGAN in 1990, you can bet every Rottweiler walking has a long line of family with DJD.

As you have stated before on this very forum, her health records are an open book.

[RedyreRottweilers]

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1176411#animal

http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?appnum=1176411#animal

[MelissaCato]

I don't know Jack about Show dogs.. what I do know... me being a working dog buyer/trainer would never choose Penny or the Bloodline. I've told you that before. You think my opinion is scrap and that's ok.
You accomplished alot with Penny you should be happy with that, I'm sure all your hard work and time will pay you off when you breed her and sell the pups. What else would you do to compensate your hard work and energies for all her Titles. To spay her wouldn't justify your cause. But doing so would make you appear Reputable to the non-breeder like myself.
Just my opinion again.
I believe this is the first person who ever challanged your ethics in my presence... and I'm glad.. it's good for your closed-mindedness.

[planet molosser]

Sorry anyone who SHOWS works and or Health and Temperament tests a bitch . They know you do NOT make your money back when breeding.

It is the people who make a top stud champion and some want the money back by studding the dog out to every dam bitch who is willing to pay the fee with no regards to improving just making back the money.

So sorry those statements come from people who never spent $500 on a show weekend, X 10 show weekends or 20 or even 5. + $150 in gase to get to a temperament test, or $300 for Penn hip $150 for OFA.

People who work show and test do this to BETTER the breed NOT to
get compensated" for the money they spent.

Even thou breaking even would be NICE one day.

This is if someone has 1 or few litters a year.

If someone is breeding 25 pups a year that is a awefull lot .
I say 25 cause I dont know how big Rottie litters can be .
That 25 could be 2 litters.

Maybe she sould spay her start over with another line, get a passing OFA
and find out the dog carries a disease only passed in the bloodline as a carrier.

Now I do not know any of you but I will say this NOT liking someone is fine.
But assuming things about show work or ofa without direct knowledge is just dog politics based on opinions of who likes who not facts.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I don't know Jack about Show dogs.. what I do know... me being a working dog buyer/trainer would never choose Penny or the Bloodline. I've told you that before. You think my opinion is scrap and that's ok.
You accomplished alot with Penny you should be happy with that, I'm sure all your hard work and time will pay you off when you breed her and sell the pups. What else would you do to compensate your hard work and energies for all her Titles. To spay her wouldn't justify your cause. But doing so would make you appear Reputable to the non-breeder like myself.
Just my opinion again.
I believe this is the first person who ever challanged your ethics in my presence... and I'm glad.. it's good for your closed-mindedness.

You should comment, Melissa.

So I should spay my multi UKC BIS, multi UKC High in Trial Multi BOS BOB winning AKC CH at 25 months hip, eye, heart, thyroid, and, according to OVC, ELBOW normal bitch because OFA says she has one elbow grade 1 DJD?

I am not closed minded.

I have consulted numerous people who have more knowledge and experience in this breed than I probably will ever have, and asked for their honest opinions on breeding this bitch. I can count on one hand the people who would not breed her if she were theirs. Fact is, she is mine, and she will be bred.

As I have said before, the proof is in the pudding. Get back to me in 5 years or so, and I'll let you know if breeding her was the right decision. And if it was NOT the right decision, I won't have any trouble admitting it, and telling exactly why.

All persons who acquire a puppy bred by me will be required to test hips, elbows, eyes and heart, and to report and fully disclose all results to the OFA data base for all eyes to see, and so that others can do proper research when they try to plan a breeding.

My disaster litter was from 2 parents certified to be OFA elbow normal. I have a severely dysplastic bitch who is lame, VERY lame, at FIVE years old that I am looking at making a heart breaking decision for much sooner than I have prayed I would. She is also from both parents OFA elbow normal.

There are no guarantees in breeding dogs. Not ever. For ME personally, and apparently for the interested prospective puppy buyers, her virtues outweigh the negative of one elbow being DJD1.

I am comfortable with breeding this bitch. Her breeder is comfortable with her being bred. I am within the Code of Ethics of ANY Rottweiler club globally making the decision to breed this bitch.

You all can hash out my ethics all you like here, or elsewhere, or anywhere. What happens with the progeny of this breeding will also be an open book.

So keep a check on the OFA site in a couple years. You can enjoy with me as results come in and are posted on the puppies that result.

[MelissaCato]

based on opinions of who likes who not facts.

I would say who likes Quality in a Dog... not who likes who.

DJD1 for my needs isn't Quality, among many other things.

Now if it's Quality for a AKC Show Dog.. then so be it.

[planet molosser]

Great post red please if you see me at a UKC show in NY, MI, Oh or Canada pls say hi I have Central Asian SHepherd dogs .
It would be a honor to talk breeding with you.

You are NOT judged by your mistakes but how you correct them...
~ unknown

[MelissaCato]

So keep a check on the OFA site in a couple years. You can enjoy with me as results come in and are posted on the puppies that result.


Penny's a great dog, I'm sure you have her in your best interest. Good Luck with what you choose. Melissa.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Don't patronize me, Melissa.

Pick one side of the fence or the other.

[MelissaCato]

What happened to Angel Chicken's post? Or was this thread a set up for yours truely? :yikes:

[RD]

First of all, pardon my ignorance, but what effect does DJD have on the dog? It isn't like hip dysplasia, so what is it? Arthritis? At what age does it begin to take its toll on the dog?

Back OT . . . I think that those who don't breed have some sort of misconception as to what actually goes into a breeding. Wouldn't it be lovely if the breed was populated with perfect dogs? Anyone could breed whatever they want without having to weigh the risks and benefits? If a breed without heritable health or temperament problems exists, please let me know because I want to breed THOSE dogs!

Stop looking at this from a buyer's perspective and look at it from a breeder's perspective. Did you know that the average "lifespan" for a breeder is 6 years? That's usually after a few litters, and after people realize that they cannot produce perfection, which buyers insist on.

A practice of working through certain problems while preserving and improving on positive effects on the breed is MUCH better for the breed than a policy of automatic exclusion. There are many dogs with faults that should not be excluded from the gene pool because they posess outstanding qualities that define the breed and need to be passed on. It is up to the breeder to choose whether or not their focus is to be on the individuals or the breed as a whole. If it's on the individual, the goal being not to produce "perfect" dogs without any problems whatsoever, the gene pool will suffer. If it's on the breed as a whole, some affected dogs will undoubtedly be produced. That is how it goes.

So, what matters more? The breed or a litter? Redyre knows her breed and she knows Penny's virtues and flaws. I trust that she will choose a mate for Penny that compliments her and is not affected with DJD.

And, since I can see this coming: No, I am not saying that dogs with hip dysplasia or more serious, crippling afflictions should be bred. Don't twist this post out of context please. :)

[J's crew]

DJD is Elbow dysplasia. Penny's recent relatives have it, all within the last couple of generations. If breeding to a dog with excellent elbows, then why have I heard you would consider breeding any of Penny's progeny to Shaka? Another dog with DJD?

But to each their own. JMO, why breed a dog with DJD when there is another one just as good without it? And there are PLENTY. Anyone that wants to do the research can find out for themselves.

And yes, with ANY breeding there can be problems. But why increase your chances? The purpose in health testing is to not only see what you have as a tool, but to avoid dogs that have health problems. Eh, maybe my standards are to high for some. ;)

And just to clarify, I have many friends that are responsible Rottweiler breeders that wouldn't breed a dog with DJD. More than I can count on all my fingers and toes. ;)

[RedyreRottweilers]

Heard heard heard.

Like I have said NUMEROUS TIMES.

You are not interested in a puppy from my bitch. SO might I suggest you keep your nose focused on your own business.

[J's crew]

Heard heard heard.

Like I have said NUMEROUS TIMES.

You are not interested in a puppy from my bitch. SO might I suggest you keep your nose focused on your own business.


Oh now......careful, your nasty side that gets you banned from many forums is starting to come out. Tsk tsk.........

BTW, MY business is rescuing Rottweilers. Therefore your breeding becomes MY business. ;)

[~Tucker&Me~]

Yikes, this is looking rather nasty... :yikes:

~Tucker

[J's crew]

Yikes, this is looking rather nasty... :yikes:

~Tucker

Not my intention at all. I am simply VERY interested in the health, temperament, and type of Rottweilers. :)

[RD]

So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. :) I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.

[Bahamutt99]

I have what I hope is a pertinent question. How common is DJD in Rottweilers? Is it difficult to find a dog that is completely clear of genetic defects? I understand that breeders now are probably having to work against the massive fad overbreeding that went on when the popularity spiked not that long ago, so some concessions probably need to be made. Also, how hard is it to find multi-BIS, multi-HIT, etc. Rottweilers? Is it harder to find an accomplished dog or a fully healthy dog?

Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed. Its easy enough for me to sit back and say that with my breed, I wouldn't breed to a DJD dog. But I also weigh that against how many APBTs are out there actually being worked/shown in more than weight pull and conformation. I would prefer not breeding a dog with a genetic defect, but again, how common is it? Is it better or worse than the average for the breed?

[Angel Chicken]

I'm sorry, but I have to back Red on this.

She loves her breed, and has been doing this for many, many years. I admire her for the work she does with them, and the training advice she has given many.

I'll admit, I know nothing about breeding. Nothing at all. I do know, however, that Red is nothing but the best in this biz, and I'd buy a pup from her ANY day!

This sounds to me like a personal attack that has come out of nowhere.

Think about it. Not all dogs are perfect, ya know?? I think it is HER decision to breed the dog, not yours or anyone else's.

[MelissaCato]

Ya, it was a set up ! :hail:

[RedyreRottweilers]

Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed.

How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.

[Bahamutt99]

'Kay. Thanks for turning the questions back at me instead of just answering what I had asked. I guess I don't really care. Its not my breed.

[J's crew]

So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. :) I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.

No offense taken at all RD. And this was never intended to be a personal attack.

Rottweilers are working dogs also as are BC's. They need excellent joints in order to do the many activities alot of Rottie owners are involved in.

My question is this, would anyone buy a pup with HD in the dam and the last couple of generations? Why are elbows different?

And, my opinion is from looking at her pedigree. I have even posted on her threads commenting on how nice looking Penny is, from what I have seen she has type, and temperament. But so do alot of Rottweilers, without DJD.

[RedyreRottweilers]

It's not directed at you, Bahama, but what this dog has accomplished is an open book.

YES I consider her in the upper 20% of her breed. YES it is HARD to find a dog that can accomplish working and breed titles without professional help who has all health clearances.

NO I am not willing to toss her out for one DJD elbow and start over with a new puppy that will also be an unknown until health testing is finished at 2 years of age who will also have a GREATER than 40% chance of having some degree of ED whether from normal parents or not.

I have enough guts and concern for my breed that I released her abnormal elbow results from OFA for the world to see. Go check out how many Rottweiler breedings are made with NO elbow number. It's a LOT. Anyone considering any puppy from a breeding I make will have no trouble finding the health screening, good bad or indifferent.

I have had it up to my eyeballs with people sniping at me from their armchairs about MY personal decision to breed MY personal bitch who is an OUTSTANDING specimen of her breed by ANYONE's standards, one elbow DJD1 or NOT.

[bubbatd]

I think it's time that both of you take this to PMing . It's going no where here --- except getting ugly .

[J's crew]

How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.

Why the hostility? :confused: If you are so certain you are making the correct choice then why are you so defensive?

I think breeding topics are a great way to educate people. Is that just me?

[J's crew]

I think it's time that both of you take this to PMing . It's going no where here --- except getting ugly .


Point taken Grammy. :)

[RD]

Thanks, J's. I didn't interpret your posts as a personal attack, I was just hoping you wouldn't interpret mine that way. :) It's so hard to tell what people really mean over the internet so with touchy subjects I often feel the need to clarify.

My question is this, would anyone buy a pup with HD in the dam and the last couple of generations? Why are elbows different?

Personally, I wouldn't. But I'm not in Rottweilers. 40% of MY breed is not affected by DJD so it is very easy to find a dog without the condition. Even normal dogs can produce DJD offspring, no? What is the heritability of DJD? Do affected dogs consistently produce affected offspring or carriers, as it is with things like CEA? Because with hip dysplasia, most dogs in my breed ARE carriers of the disease.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable about cutting out half of the potential breeding animals in the breed over this issue. It seems more realistic to breed the best specimens possible and work through the existing health issue that plagues the breed, rather than cull them all affected dogs and greatly reduce the size of the gene pool.

[RedyreRottweilers]

My final comment on this subject.

This entire topic, J's Crew, was not in any way started to educate someone. It was started to make sure everyone knew 2 things:

that I have never produced anything of merit as a breeder (fact)
And that I plan to breed my bitch who is DJD1 in one elbow according to OFA (also fact)

None of this is unknown information, however, you felt it was your duty to make this known and cause this discussion to run YET AGAIN on this board.

Had it been intended as an educational opportunity, it would have been couched in a much different manner than it has been.

Now, if you want to go start your own educational thread about Elbow Dysplasia in the Rottweiler breed, and why it is a good decision to remove any and all animals who don't pass all health testing from the gene pool, be my guest.

I'm done with this one. Do not PM me.

[whatszmatter]

I don't always see things Red's way, I don't really care for Rott's myself. I like them, I just will probably never own one. I don't care for breeding with elbow DJD, which i know has many causes and not all that uncommon in large breeds.

I do know that Red does her homework, I can tell that she has very carefully thought this out. She doesn't hide behind a mask or make excuses. I love working dogs, I wish she had IPO or SchH titles, but that in no way means she doesn't work with her dogs and her breed. I can tell she loves and puts a ton of time in. I haven't heard anything negative about this dogs temperment, which is priority #1 in my book. I don't know much about DJD in rott's, but from what I've read in this thread, it appears minor DJD in one elbow isn't an automatic deal breaker.

I think this thread would be better served talking about djd in rott's in general rather than her breeding decision. One thing I can tell about Red is that she does her homework. Someone will always find reason or fault in a breeder's decision to breed, so that doesn't suprise me that someone has in this case.

[RD]

Well, Red, I'm sorry that I had questions not pertaining to you or your dogs directly. I was curious about the disease, I didn't know it would bother you. It won't happen again, but there's no need to snap at J's Crew who simply answered my questions. T'was my fault.

[Gempress]

My final comment on this subject.

This entire topic, J's Crew, was not in any way started to educate someone. It was started to make sure everyone knew 2 things:

that I have never produced anything of merit as a breeder (fact)
And that I plan to breed my bitch who is DJD1 in one elbow according to OFA (also fact)

None of this is unknown information, however, you felt it was your duty to make this known and cause this discussion to run YET AGAIN on this board.

Had it been intended as an educational opportunity, it would have been couched in a much different manner than it has been.

Now, if you want to go start your own educational thread about Elbow Dysplasia in the Rottweiler breed, and why it is a good decision to remove any and all animals who don't pass all health testing from the gene pool, be my guest.

I'm done with this one. Do not PM me.


So the whole point of this thread was to just tell people two bits of information without discussing anything? And if it's not unknown information, why is it such a big deal for J's Crew to have said it? :confused:

Please don't interpret this as an attack. I have absolutely no clue about rottie breeding. I was following this in the hopes that it would be educational. Now I'm just very confused.

J's Crew, do you mind starting a seperate thread? Or PMing me about it?

[Mach1girl]

I have a question........and this IS NOT an attack, it is just a question that always comes to mind when I read/think/hear about a breeding.

And Red doesnt have to answer it, anyone can.

But Red states that if this breeding indeed does result in being a mistake years to come from now, then she would be the first to admit it.

Now tell me, does admitting it solve the problems?? In the mean time, while the breeder is admitting the problems, what is happening on the sidelines??Are the pups walking stiff shouldered and in pain? Are they having to be put down at a young age due to suffering?

I of course as everyone knows have had an accidental litter, and I wonder the same thing. What if? What if in one year, or two year time something genetic pops up in the pups?

I thankfully added in my contract that the pup would be bought back, and would be cared for by me if it were to have any medical problems caused by genetics. I would treat the dog, and make the proper decicion when the times comes.

But I hear this preached so darn much by so many people, then they turn around, do it and say "I'll be the first to admit" but what good does that do??

Again, no ditsing, just wondering.

[MelissaCato]

But Red states that if this breeding indeed does result in being a mistake years to come from now, then she would be the first to admit it.


Admitting it is easy to say. The pup's that are infected suffer from the program not the breeder. Through science and bio it's a fact Penny will produce over all more than 50% DJD1 in her young even with a "Perfect Stud". As my opinion it's better to keep her out of that gene pool. The new owners won't know either till tests at certain ages well after they are family.. just like RR did with Penny.... or a pop of the joint fetching a fast ball that the kids threw that leads to surgery or worse. How can you Guarantee Health when you don't breed it? I don't understand.

[Sunnierhawk0]

RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.

[ravennr]

RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.

http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1356.gifGood posting!

[~Jessie~]

RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.

I agree as well. Great post :)

[Doberluv]

First off, most all purebred dogs have very little diversity in their ancestory. Breeding relatives, no matter how distant creates defects. It's not about passing diseases on. It's about genetic drift. So, no matter how careful a breeder is to breed perfectly healthy dogs, a certain number of these mutations will occur. Secondly, there are no perfect dogs.

Take Dobermans, for example just because I'm familiar with that breed. They have so many potential health issues, it isn't even funny. Dilated cardiomyopathy and cancer is in ALL the lines. Not every dog will have it, but it's in the genes. Should no more Dobermans be breed ever again? They also have a very high incidence of Von Willebrans Disease, a bleeding disorder. Dobermans have a higher incidence of this than any other breed. However, in Dobermans, it happens to be usually the less severe. (there are 3 classification of severity) I think it's something like 30% are affected. Affected dogs are not all clinical bleeders. So, it's not normally (but it can be) as severe in Dobermans. There are other diseases too...hypothyroidism, liver malfunction, occassional dysplasia (although that is not a big problem in Dobes). There is always temperament to consider.

Now, take Lyric's sire's breeder who actually bred his mother but another breeder owned her. Lyric's grandsire was the #1 Dobe in the country a few times. His breeder got breeder of the year award not too long ago. She breeds wonderful dogs. Lyric's mother was affected with Von Willebrands. His sire was a carrier....on the face of it, that is not a good idea because you can get 50/50 carriers and affected. Lyric's mother had a C-section...no bleeding problems at all.

Ok....so should Lyric's breeder not have bred these dogs on account of the Von Willebrands? The titles these dogs had, the conformation was close to perfect, not an easy feat. The longevity in the lines was relatively good...not too much cancer or cardio...a little, but not much back there. The temperaments were good. Let me tell you. It is impossible to get dogs who have it all....every single thing perfect. That doesn't exist. Reputable breeders, such as Lyric's breeder who has been doing this for 40 some years do the best they can. They make decisions which will improve the breed. To get dogs who do not have one single problem is impossible. There could be a dog who is clear of Von Willebrands, but has a lot more cardio or cancer in the recent ancestors or one who has a crappy temperament but has little cardio in the back ground. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL. I don't care what anyone says. So, Lyric's breeder had a bitch that had just about everything going for her. The sire had everything going for him. EXCEPT that darn Von Willebrands. Now, after a few generations, it may be probable to breed a carrier with a clear who also has many good attributes. But trading Von Willebrands for cardio isn't a good trade.

If all these Dobermans who are bred weren't bred because of some health issue, there wouldn't be any Dobermans at all.

The goal is to improve the breed and strive to erradicate these things, even if it may take a few generations. However, like I said, even with the most careful, mutations or defects will occurr every now and then, regardless, because of how genetics work. Actually, the best bet would be to infiltrate another breed every once in a while to diversify the gene pool a little more.

So, my take....Red is doing nothing abnormal at all. This is a trade off. One hip or elbow (can't remember which) and everything else is probably excellent. You can't have it all. Genetics don't work like that.

[Sunnierhawk0]

:hail: Great post Dober

[Angel Chicken]

:hail: :hail:

You guys kick so much butt. Thanks for saying what I wanted to!

[J's crew]

The following comments come from this site, OFA:

http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html


"Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED."

So, 26% versus 12%. Pretty big difference, IMO.




And another quote from a well respected member of Rottweiler.net

"I believe that people do not realize how very important the elbows truly are. In many respects they are more important than the hips as they carry the majority of the dog's weight, and must absorb all the landing pressure even when just moving, and especially when any jumping is involved. A dog can shift weight forward to compensate for a lesser rear end, but they cannot shift weight to the back. The Rottweiler is a heavy-bodied dog and those elbows must be able to do a lot of work."



And red, don't worry. You won't receive any PM's from me. ;)

[RD]

J's, VERY interesting post. I looked on OFA for statistics like that and couldn't find anything. Figures, I must've just glossed over it.

Thanks for the info.

[Boemy]

I think that if 40% of Rotties are affected by this problem, the dog shouldn't be bred, for the following reasons.

1. If it's that common, it greatly increases the odds that even a stud with excellent or normal elbows will be a carrier, thus resulting in affected pups.

2. This isn't a rare breed, it's a rottweiller. There are tons of them. And 60% are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.

Just my two cents . . . I'm not trying to attack anyone or rag on the dog.

[RedyreRottweilers]

What member? How is an un named source, from THAT bulletin board, credible when it is un named and unverified?

THIS:
In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%),

does not apply at this point in time to the Rottweiler breed, since the percentage of dysplastic dogs is over 40%.

So I lied about the final comment. I had to correct this post. IF the un named source wants to come here and ream me about my decision to breed this bitch, let them step forward.

And now I'm PLENTY done.

[J's crew]

What member? How is an un named source, from THAT bulletin board, credible when it is un named and unverified?

THIS:
In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%),

does not apply at this point in time to the Rottweiler breed, since the percentage of dysplastic dogs is over 40%.

So I lied about the final comment. I had to correct this post. IF the un named source wants to come here and ream me about my decision to breed this bitch, let them step forward.

And now I'm PLENTY done.

It doesn't have to be verified, it's an opinion that many share. Sounds like an ethical person to me. Are you trying to say that comment wouldn't be considered ethical?

And the reason for the higher percentage now is because of breeders breeding to dogs with DJD.

[Doberluv]

And 60% are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.

Ok...so take the 60% that are without this problem. Out of those, find dogs who also have excellent temperments, no cancer, cardio, VW, (examples, since I don't know what they're prone to) excellent conformation otherwise, whatever other diseases they are prone to. Find one who doesn't have one other problem. Which is better...breeding the dog who has a lot of cancer in his lines or one with a slightly questionable elbow? Or one who doesn't have a lot of cancer, but has a strong history of some other disease or the elbow? I bet there are no breeding of any Rottweilers or any other breed that do not have some kind of inheritable problem.

Ok...lets cut out all the dogs with cancer in their lines and cut out all the dogs with elbow discrepencies. Now, how many dogs are there to breed from? Oh...wait a minute, what about the dogs with lousy temperaments? We better remove those from the gene pool. Now how many dogs are there to breed from. And the other diseases. Remove those dogs too. Now how many dogs are there to breed from? The pool has shrunken to a very, very small grouping. So, now the founder effect is really going to take affect. Defects from such a small gene pool are going to crop up more than ever. Inbreeding causes defects, period. When the diversity is decreased, mutations are increased.

There's the ideal world and there's reality. Purebred dogs are in trouble no matter what we do unless we mix in other breeds or mixed breeds occassionally. It's about biology.

[OutlineACDs]

I think that if 40% of Rotties are affected by this problem, the dog shouldn't be bred, for the following reasons.

1. If it's that common, it greatly increases the odds that even a stud with excellent or normal elbows will be a carrier, thus resulting in affected pups.

2. This isn't a rare breed, it's a rottweiller. There are tons of them. And 60% are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.

Just my two cents . . . I'm not trying to attack anyone or rag on the dog.

Yes, but you have to look at it from another standpoint. How many are OFA'ed? You are REALLY limiting your gene pool if you cut out that 40%. On top of that you can't make this type of decision based on registration numbers. I would be willing to bet that 90-98% of all dogs registered will never be health tested. Just because most litters produce more pets than dogs that will go on to show and reproduce. So ALL of those registered Rotties out there mean nothing as far as OFA statistics go.

Honestly, in my breed there isn't any one problem that plagues us more than deafness. There is no genetic test for it. It is always a gamble. You can breed two full hearing dogs and get an entire litter of deaf puppies, or you may not get any. Of course we all do BAER testing to determine if the dog hears bilaterally, unilaterally, or is deaf, but no one actually sends those results in to OFA. There is no way to track it through the pedigrees, and if you could, I don't think it would give any fast, hard statistics.

Someone I knew bred her full hearing bitch to a full hearing dog and had two deaf puppies in the litter. I bred my unilateral bitch to the same dog and had a litter of all hearing puppies (one unilateral). Was it wrong for me to do this breeding? I don't think so. My bitch is OFA good, elbows normal. She is an AKC champion with multiple group placements. She also has her NA and RN and is working on more titles.

To each his own, but I think in this case there are a lot of people saying "oh no I wouldn't breed the dog" when they don't know what something like that can do to a breed. In a lot of breeds people are in denial, they don't test for problems so they don't know they have them. Toy breeds NEVER x-ray hips and I would be willing to bet that if they started they would see a whole heap of problems that have gone unseen. Another thing, people are so uptight about the OFA patellas,but do you realize that there is no x-ray required for that? The vet manipulates the dogs patellas and if he can luxate them he write down what 'grade' the luxation is, and that is the extent of the OFA, so don't tell me that there arent people out there who have a vet for a friend who will essentially fudge a test for them. At least Redyre has tested, recognized the problem and is working to correct it.

[Bahamutt99]

Redyre - Thank you for clarifying. I was genuinely curious. :)

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Honestly, in my breed there isn't any one problem that plagues us more than deafness. There is no genetic test for it. It is always a gamble. You can breed two full hearing dogs and get an entire litter of deaf puppies, or you may not get any. Of course we all do BAER testing to determine if the dog hears bilaterally, unilaterally, or is deaf, but no one actually sends those results in to OFA. There is no way to track it through the pedigrees, and if you could, I don't think it would give any fast, hard statistics.

Someone I knew bred her full hearing bitch to a full hearing dog and had two deaf puppies in the litter. I bred my unilateral bitch to the same dog and had a litter of all hearing puppies (one unilateral). Was it wrong for me to do this breeding? I don't think so. My bitch is OFA good, elbows normal. She is an AKC champion with multiple group placements. She also has her NA and RN and is working on more titles.



I dont know that I would agree with breeding a uni female. I am not familiar with ACDs but am familiar with Dalmatians who have the same problem. There arent a lot of homes that would be suitable for a deaf dog. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people simply do not want a deaf dog.

I personally wouldnt take the chance. I dont know a lot about the genetics but I do know unis are more likely to throw deaf puppies.

I also take into consideration it is different then dalmatians because the people who breed uni dals and end up with deaf pups euthanize the deaf pups It's the DCA stance that all deaf puppies should be euthanized because they are "so unpredictable". (Yup, that is why my deaf dal girl has the most stable temperment of all my dogs)

So I guess it is different. Maybe there are more people in ACDs who are willing to take a deaf puppy but I know in Dalmatians, those homes are few and far between.

Sorry to get off topic.

As for the Rottie breeding, to be honest, I know nothing of the breed or of the elbow problems. I can say it seems like Red has thought this over, and made what she thinks is the best decision.

Honestly, I am just thankful that she has worked so hard with her dog. I knew someone who had 3 Rotties. One female, and 2 males. His favorite was the older male. The older male was the younger male's father. The older male had hip dysplacia. None of them, of course show dogs, they were all BYB dogs. Knowing the older dog had HD, the guy bred the younger male to the female. (He wanted a puppy to remember his older dog by, I tried & tried to talk him into rescuing a puppy instead) The female had 7 puppies. She killed (literally) all but 2. They were both females. The guy who "Bred" them wanted a male. So he was asking me what I thought about him breeding her again *sigh*. I gave him the emails of some respectable breeders I found online and told him to ask one of them, knowing what they would say. Dont know if he ever contacted them or not (he told me he didnt) but he decided against breeding her and decided to keep both puppies instead. But what are the chanced they will have HD? VERY high.

I dont have the info nor do I even come close to knowing enough to "take a side". I do know though that Red seems like a very responsible person who has really thought about this. It is also obvious to me that Red has worked her bum off to earn Penny so many titles and to make sure she was tempermentally, and conformationally solid.

I guess it would help if I knew more about DJD too and how it affected the dogs who had it. Like can the dogs still get around or is it so bad you have to euthanize them? Is it like arthritis or is it cripling?

[Laurelin]

I think it's ridiculous to cull out all dogs with minor problems such as this. You'll be hard pressed to find a perfect specimen that doesn't carry any issue. No dog is perfect. Suggesting culling 40% of the gene pool is also a very scary thing. And who's to say that other 60% is entirely healthy in all other ways. I don't know much about DJD but I do know about patellas and PRA in papillons. Whoever said toys are hardly ever X0rayed for hips is completely right. Patellar scrrenings are just as they said, and PRA is basically a hit or miss. You can have a dog CERFed but that doesn't mean the dog won't have retinal problems in the future. You can be sure the dog is healthy at the time of the breeding, but that's it.

I think what it comes down to is a decision by the breeder on whether the breeding is worth it. They need to evaluate the dog in a non biased way and ask themselves seriously if breeding this dog would be beneficial to the breed. There's a lot more than one elbow to look at with breeding- temperament, type, conformation, work ability, overall health, drive, etc.

I know one person who had a top 10 great dane. Gorgeous dog, wonderful type, beautiful color, great personality, you name it. He was insanely titled and gorgeous, then began developing retinal issues. He was neutered and never sired a litter. I also know a very well known papillon who has produced several pups with grade 3 luxating patellas. And they still breed him. Sometimes being honest is looking past all these titles and seeing what is really there. Kennel blindness and focusing on titles can lead to devastating results.

I don't know the specifics, but I'd hope and I'll assume that Red and the other people involved with this breeding have weighed out all the factors involved and have come to what they feel is an educated decision. I really think the way this was brought up on the other thread was highly rude and could have been done in a much more mature way. If anyone wants to talk about DJD and rottie genetics, I'd be more than happy to discuss on a thread that has less to do with personal attacks.

[shadowfacedanes]

I really think the way this was brought up on the other thread was highly rude and could have been done in a much more mature way.

I couldn't agree more.

This whole thread smacked of a personal attack. While I am not into Rottweilers, I did a minimal amount of research last night and found that many breeders have bred DJD1 rotties. One such rottie breeding was announced on the Rottweiler.net forum and their was nothing but praise for this breeder.

Just seems rather snide to me. If concern was geniunely for the breed, this could have been handled in a MUCH more educational and civil manner rather than a backhanded attempt at smearing Red's name.

[J's crew]

My last post on this discussion. There is way more to the whole story than meet's the eye. ;)

If you do a search and read ALL of my posts they 98 % of the time are geared towards rescue, animal abuse, etc. With that comes the health of dogs being bred. I have concerns that I am not alone in. Everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. Like I stated before, maybe my standards are higher than others because I see the problems every single day, I know of breeders who do not breed dogs that have a close history of DJD. So I know it can and is being done, without problems.

I also wanted to mention that even though I disagree with this breeding I in no way want to discredit Redyre's training ability. I believe she is a valuable resource to this board in that regard.

[bubbatd]

Since the original poster was Redy to J's Crew and both have stated their last posts , I see no reason for this to continue here .