Back To Newspaper (sigh)

[jason_els]

I've given-up on full crate training my 8-week old guys. I've now put them in the pen with lots of newspaper and a Purina litter box with more newspaper. I'm going to train them to use that until they're old enough to hold through the night.

They beat me. I tried taking them out every 2 hours all weekend and I got, since Saturday morning (pups arrived Saturday pm), 6 hours of sleep. There's no way I could continue taking them out every 2 hours. The good part is they do like the crate and sleep in it. I'm going to newspaper everything under it and try to put them in the box every time they go so they know newspaper is ok to use. The breeder was using newspaper as well so they're not unfamiliar with it. I'm going to read-up more on litterbox training.

I feel bad that I had to revert but at 8 weeks it will be months before they can hold their bowels long enough to permit me to work and sleep. There is no one else to help me with them and it finally dawned on me that I run the house and have to get their schedule and mine to find a good medium. I've been so worn-out I haven't been able to be a good puppy owner. I haven't had time to train them though we have had one-on-one getting-to-know-you quiet time. I concluded that if I'm going to be a good owner for them there will have to be some compromises and while crate training is ideal, I can't keep getting-up or rushing home every 2 hours. It's stressful on me and on the dogs and doesn't permit me time to work. I've tried letting them go 3 hours but 2 is their limit for now.

I've paper trained before and it worked great. Transitioning isn't easy but then it's not all that difficult either. Litter, or newspaper box training looks to be a happy compromise. As I haven't found a way to treat them yet, all I can give is enthusiasm and that doesn't seem appropriate enough for something like proper elimination. So until then, we're in newspapers everywhere mode.

I still haven't found a treat they respond to. I'm going to get some string cheese and turkey slices. They have no interest in the dried treats.

I appreciate thoughts, tips, and opinions on this. I wish I could keep-up the outdoor schedule but at night between the late hour and the near zero temps, it's too hard on me and the dogs. The littler of the two starts shivering something awful in just a few minutes and I have to warm him afterwards. He gets so cold it scares me. Now we have a big dump of snow coming that will be far taller than they are and I worry about wet snow getting into their coats causing them chills.

Thanks again for all your help!

[bumhouse]

Where are you at and how big is a pumi? Maybe you can compare it to another breed to give me an idea. I have a very small Collie. He was only 4 lbs when I got him and your right, 2 hours wasn't nearly enough. We were taking him out every 20 minutes when he was awake. But - he was able to go from like 9 or 10 pm until 7am or so with only one run outside during the night until he was like 8 - 10 weeks old. We gave him no food or water after 7pm.

You gotta do what you gotta do - plus you have 2 puppies not one and chances are they both don't always go at the same time. Like having twins I imagine. I hope it works out for you - Good Luck.....

[bubbatd]

As I said before ......double trouble . Sounds like they are in the same pen . Another no-no . Good luck !!

[Saje]

I guess I'm kind of lost. I must have missed why you got two at the same time and couldn't rehome the second? This is a very short time to give up on crate training. Are they not sleeping through the night? If they are sleeping through the night and you feed the last meal early in the evening I doubt you'd need to get up and take them out more than once. Unless they are fussing of course. Up to you! Seems like you are adding more work though.

[jason_els]

Thank you for your replies. I really do appreciate it :)

Yes, they're in the same pen. In that I have no choice. I don't have another tiled room in which to put them. As they get older I will separate them more often and, eventually, give them separate pens. For right now though it's just not practical for me. My dad lives with me and he's not a dog person and he's set in his ways. I think he'll come to love the dogs too but he doesn't need the stress as he's not well.

I spoke to the vet about littermate syndrome and he wasn't worried. I'm not terribly worried either. Both are becoming quite attached to me. I do take them out separately for periods of time. Today they spent an hour apart and there was no whining or anxiety from either of them. They both know I'm the boss. I don't treat them like children, they're dogs. I decide what they do and when. I lead. I think that's the most important thing.

I just have to keep telling myself a lot of dogs don't have the love and care I provide to my dogs and that they'll turn out ok.

Last night I took them out one last time before bed and then I went to sleep and got a good 7 hours. Amazing how a little sleep helps to put things in perspective. I can now clean the house, run errands, and such.

The first weeks are always the hardest as they adjust to me and I adjust to them. I'm confident we'll find a happy medium.

[jason_els]

I guess I'm kind of lost. I must have missed why you got two at the same time and couldn't rehome the second? This is a very short time to give up on crate training. Are they not sleeping through the night?

I got two because I didn't want either of them to end-up in a mill or another bad place. There's a thread I made in the general section about what went on.

I gave-up on the crate training because they can't hold it through the night. They need to go every 2 hours. I've tried going longer but they're not able to hold it and I know it's the worst thing to have them mess in the crate. I can't wake-up every 2 hours to take them outside, particularly when it takes very little time for them to become very cold. We've had nights in the single digits and one poor guy shivers so badly in just a minute or two that I have to rewarm him in a blanket afterwards. His coat isn't as thick as his brother's. The vet gave him an ok though, listened to his lungs and heart, took his temp. He's not sick, just not as strong. I don't want them to get sick.

During the day I take them out every 2 hours and they're good with that. Soon as we go out they pee and I praise liberally.

My vet was ok with withdrawing food but not water. He says they should have access to water throughout the night so I can't shut that off.

Again, they're 9 weeks. While some dogs might go 3 hours at that age, these guys don't and yes, they generally poop at separate times.

As to rehoming. I spoke to the breed club and offered to keep them both until they're 6 months. At that time they can be neutered and it's at that point I'll decide. One of the dogs is very outgoing and happy and dominant, the other less so. We'll see how it goes.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Access to water all night is not necessary as long as they have free access to it during the day.

I pick up water no later than 10pm on ALL puppies.

Your puppies are INFANTS at 8 weeks, and you should in no way expect a puppy of that age to be crate trained or clean throughout the night.

Separate sleeping arrangements should be a priority for you at this point so you can tell who is going when.

[Zoom]

Jason, you HAVE to start seperating them now. You've not had them for more than a couple days, everything is stil new to them at this point so of course they're not going to look like they're bonding to each other.

Another thing, they are much too young to be taken out just every 2 hours. During the day, set a timer for every 30 minutes. Take them out religiously. Also, immediately after waking up from sleep or a nap, after playing and after eating. Praise profusely for going outside. Then crate them SEPERATELY when you cannot be paying full attention to them. Pick up food after 8pm, water by 10pm. Take them out at least twice more before bed time, put them in their seperate crates and set the alarm for 2am. Take them out once more. They should be able to hold it until 6am.

Potty training one pup is a PIA, potty-training two even more so. You took on the responsiblity of two pups at once, it's your job to see it through. You can't get lazy at all, because the habits they learn now are the ones they will keep with them through their lifetime. Yes, sleeping is going to be cut back quite a bit. You should have realized this before agreeing to two pups. Even if you rehome one at 6 months, what are you going to be passing on with that dog?

EVERYTHING must remain structured and consistant. Giving up now is only going to confuse them more. Pick a method and stick with it. I'd stick with the crates, personally.

[Saje]

I agree with Red. They need to be separate for a lot of reasons. Littermate syndrome is the least of your concerns. You need to be able to regulate who eats what, what is going in and how it's coming out. You may think that the only reason to separate is so they don't bond too much but there is a lot more to it than that.

I never suggested that you pull water up. Some think it's a great idea. It's a matter of opinion. Vets have different opinions too. Personally, I don't pull water up.

You've been given good advice on this forum Jason. I really hope you'll take some of it to heart so you can prevent future problems.

Edit: I agree with Zoom as well. She posted at the same time.

[Doberluv]

You didn't want them to end up in a shelter. But by not potty training them properly now, that's where they may well end up, that is...unless you don't mind two grown dogs peeing and pooping all over your house. If you let them pee on newspapers in the house, that's still peeing in the house to them. They will not be able to discern the difference very well. If you decide to find one or both a home, who's going to want to adopt one or two un-housebroken dogs? They're very difficult to potty train as adults.

They're infants, like it was said. They barely know it's coming when it comes out. They need to be taken out at least every 30-60 minutes during the day. Keep them up as late as you can and still get enough sleep and you should be able to get away with one trip during the night. Personally, I have never withheld water from any dog, but that's up to you.

Nobody has a puppy potty trained by 8 weeks. That's just totally unreasonable. My Dobe was about 10 months old by the time he was reliable. They're all different. I've had dogs learn within a few weeks or a month. This is part of owning a puppy. Training them and developing discipline and patience within yourself. I don't mean to sound so blunt, but I hate to think of you having a miserable time with them later. Puppyhood lasts a short time, but adult hood is years. Six months is the average time for housebreaking. Average. But if these pups don't have consistancy in their training, they'll be miserable to live with. They can not learn this on their own.

If you want to turn this around, read the stickies in the training forum on house breaking. There are some good tips. It's work, diligence, discipline, routine, a BIG change of life style. The time you usually use for your own thing is now used up for taking care of puppies, watching them, taking them out often, teaching them things, making sure they're not being reiforced for unwanted behavior. That's the way it is when you choose to have a puppy. When you choose to have two puppies, its all double the work.

About the cold, how cold is it? What breed are these pups? Where I live, it can be anywhere from 25-30 F to 25-30 below zero F and about 3-4 feet of snow. I have all smooth coated dogs, from Doberman, to a mix, to two Chihuahuas. They all go outside to potty without coats and can come right back in. They do not have an option. They're fine.

Find a treat your pups like. Anything that needs to eat to sustain life will like food, especially if it's extra good and if they're not just stuffed from their meal. Get some tiny pieces of fresh meat; chicken, liver, steak, pot roast, filet mignon with bernaise' sauce and mushrooms on top. Surely, there must be something they love. That's what needs to be given the instant they finish going outside and loads of praise. Accidents must be prevented inside. Consistancy and they'll get onto it in time.

Otherwise, if you continue to feel defeated and cave, you're going to have two unenjoyable adult dogs to contend with or for someone else to contend with. Good luck. Get tough! LOL.

[Saje]

That's another good point. You say that you love your pups and at least they have a safe warm home. This is so true. Nobody doubts that. But what about when these problems escalate? When you come home tired and find yourself frustrated and losing patience? Will you be short tempered? Will you withhold affection because they are on your last nerve? How will your dad handle it? These are things that you can't foresee but with proper training you can probably prevent it. You don't seem very open to any of this advice but I really hope you will reconsider. We really do just want to help you and your pups.

[bubbatd]

Jason ....excellent advice is being given to you . For all involved ..( expecially for the pups ) please take to heart .

[dr2little]

Jason ....excellent advice is being given to you . For all involved ..( expecially for the pups ) please take to heart .

I have to agree with Grammy, Jason. You have been given great advise and that advise will absolutely help you to get your new pups on track. News paper and joint accomodations will without a doubt make it almost impossible to properly train your new babies.
Two pups are a handful, but two pups without proper training...just a frightening thought.

[jason_els]

I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?

As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.

Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house. Now I don't quite believe that vet as plenty of cold weather dogs live where it gets far colder, but it illustrates the point that a lot of experts conflict when it comes to what's best. I wouldn't leave them out at that temp, but a quick in/out isn't too bad. It's when it's below 10F that really has me concerned as they cold so quickly.

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.

Is there a problem with this if I setup 2 separate pens with a crate, food, water, and a potty place for each? The crate/pens will have to be in the same room for now. There is another area I can use as well but I can't watch both areas at the same time.

I realize not everyone will agree on what choices are made, but perhaps a consensus?

Thank you all very much for taking the time to help me out.

[Saje]

Okay, I'll try and break it down for you.

I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

Your guys have not even been given the chance to adjust to a new home and schedule before you quit on them. This is not magic. It won't happen overnig
ht.

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

I'm not sure how you are saying that. Are you setting children up for failure if you try to get them to understand the concepts of pottytraining before they can make it through the night? Is my school setting me up for failure by giving me skills that I won't be ready to use yet? This is training. It takes time. It's not magic. It's not going to happen overnight. You need to slow down and take it step by step. Don't expect miracles but do try to set them up to succeed.


Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?

They can play inside. Only if they are supervised and you have them out one at a time. If you can't do that then it's best to take them both outside and play with them there. At least when they go they will be going in the right place and you will hopefully be there to offer praise.



As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.
Like I said before everyone has a different opinion on this. Many people sucessfully housetrain pups without taking away water so go with your gut. Especially if you have a good vet.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.

This is why many people recommend that people with fulltime jobs either adopt an older dog or bring the pup home during holidays. But you have already made your own decisions so now you have to work with them. One option is to find a pup sitter to take you out. Maybe an elderly person who would love a break in the afternoon and then a student when school lets out. Go home on your lunch. Do the best you can. You were quite determined to bring two pups home so now you have to work with it. What would Plan B be if you were newspaper training? Would they just have to sit by their filth all day? Or run free around the house to do what they want?

Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

Sure, many methods will work in the end but you are dealing with two very young pups. It's a completely different story.

The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house.
"Go outside" means what to this vet? I highly doubt a vet is telling all pet owners that a two-minute pee is bad for their health unless they are otherwise weak. I live in Canada and believe me, we don't have our pups peeing in our house.

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.

Is there a problem with this if I setup 2 separate pens with a crate, food, water, and a potty place for each? The crate/pens will have to be in the same room for now. There is another area I can use as well but I can't watch both areas at the same time.

I realize not everyone will agree on what choices are made, but perhaps a consensus?

Thank you all very much for taking the time to help me out.

I don't know what to say to this. Is it a good idea? .. Well if you absolutely HAVE to teach your dogs to potty inside then I guess it's your best option. But, ultimately, no. In my opinion you are in over your head with the two pups. I hope you prove us wrong and have two keen pups who learn quickly!

[dr2little]

[QUOTE=jason_els;605132]I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?
Supervised play when "empty", crating in between. Puppies should be in one of 3 places only while house training. 1) Outside for potty break 2) Right in front of you so you can watch for signs of needing to GO..and 3) In the crate when not supervised. UNLESS YOU ARE AWAY FOR MORE THAN 2-3 HOURS AT A TIME.

As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.
No vet will tell you to keep water available during the night.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.
Having young pups certainly isn't convenient, especially 2 young pups. Crating can and should be done when you can't supervise 100% and if they're on a feeding schedule, you can plan your shopping trips at times when they've had a chance to empty their bladders and bowels before being crated.

Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

If you knew the number of paper trained puppies that I meet again as adults for private training due to eliminating in the house...you'd see what a mess this method can cause. Again, particularly with 2 puppies you'll have an uphill battle if you don't bite the bullet and properly outdoor train them now. Puppies are ready to learn at about 49 days....there's not a reason in the world that they can't start on their housetraining now.


The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house. Now I don't quite believe that vet as plenty of cold weather dogs live where it gets far colder, but it illustrates the point that a lot of experts conflict when it comes to what's best. I wouldn't leave them out at that temp, but a quick in/out isn't too bad. It's when it's below 10F that really has me concerned as they cold so quickly.
I find that a bit silly. I live in Calgary, it's now -22 C and my dogs all go out to potty..even the 1.3 lb Chihuahua. They aren't out there to play, they're out to do their business, there's a difference. I go with them and make sure that they're quick and safe....pretty simple to do.

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.
I have many clients who work outside the home when they get a new puppy. Unfortunately for these clients, they have no option but to provide a potty area while they're away but they're also aware that this will cause housetraining to take much longer. I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.
If you must use an interm method, I strong suggest that instead of placing the newspaper directly on the floor, you put it inside of a large (bathmat size) rubbermaid container lid (1-2"high). This way, you can help them to make the distinction between the floor and having to jump into the potty area. This option must be taken away unless you're away for 3 hours or more.

[jason_els]

Well they don't sit in their own filth. The area they have is a good 10 square feet. They're going in the corner furthest from their bed and food area. I also am taking them out from morning until they go to bed. Other than times longer than this, they have a clean pen. I have modified my schedule to make sure I'm here nearly all the time but sometimes I can't be. Every morning I clean their area using Nature's Miracle and lay down fresh paper with a sheet of previously slightly used paper in between and it stays clean because I take them out every two hours or after they've had play time.

I've done the two littermate thing before though that time I had help. We managed OK and the dogs grew-up to be happy. Back then we had a bathroom and newspaper and the dogs stayed there. We did train them separately, take them places separately, but otherwise they were together all the time.

Maybe I am in over my head. I hope I'm not. People have been raising dogs for thousands of years and I'm sure I'm not the first person to do it and I won't be the last. There are single moms and single dads out there raising kids in less than ideal situations but they manage. I hope to manage too and am looking for ideas how to do that. I'm learning a lot here and everyone is helpful and supportive. I am seriously considering rehoming one of the dogs as I think he would make a better working dog than a pet. It's only been 3 days. I'm not going to jump to any decisions until I see how things work out.

The previous brothers we had were received at 6 weeks from a family who would have sent them to the pound. At least these guys are 8 weeks.

My vet is exceptional. He graduated from Cornell and is very highly regarded by other vets in the area. I drive 22 miles to reach him. He diagnosed Tristan's lymphoma very early and immediately referred us to the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan; arguably the finest veterinary hospital in the world. Their oncologists were impressed he caught the symptoms so early and had nothing but praise for the care Tristan received with my vet.

I do praise them when they go outside. I praise as much as I can. I get animated and happy and look like an idiot, but I want them to know it makes me happy to go outside. I'm not just chucking them in a room with a bowl and some newspaper never to let them out like the relative in the basement we don't talk about. We go outside a lot. I take them separately and together. I had to go out twice today. Each time I took a different dog and we went and visited the tire shop and the insurance agency. They see me nearly all day. My desk is 10 feet from their pen area, and my bed a few feet from that. They're not alone at all.

[Doberluv]

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data//500/banghead.gif

[jason_els]

I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.

It's the lack of nearby services and traffic that makes some things take a while. Our town is full of chic boutiques and no box stores. If you need to buy clothes or electronics or get your car serviced or go to the vet, it's always at least an hour to do what you need and get home, sometimes traffic or inability to find what you need makes it take much longer.

I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.

It would but then I wouldn't sleep, work wouldn't get done, I'd be broke, sick, and the dogs would have to be rehomed as I'd lose mine. I don't believe there are people out there crating their dogs and taking them out every 30 minutes or every hour or two or three hours. That's slavery. Like a previous poster said, what do I want to end up doing? Hating my dogs because they've worn me down to nothing?

If you must use an interm method, I strong suggest that instead of placing the newspaper directly on the floor, you put it inside of a large (bathmat size) rubbermaid container lid (1-2"high). This way, you can help them to make the distinction between the floor and having to jump into the potty area. This option must be taken away unless you're away for 3 hours or more.

Now that is an idea I can live with. It makes sense! I hear the heavenly cherubim! Thank you! Dobe was right, you're good at this. Are you a trainer? Should I crate train them to use that? They seem to get the idea of the newspaper as the breeder started them on that. Is there someplace that describes how to do it?

[dr2little]

Now that is an idea I can live with. It makes sense! I hear the heavenly cherubim! Thank you! Dobe was right, you're good at this. Are you a trainer? Should I crate train them to use that? They seem to get the idea of the newspaper as the breeder started them on that. Is there someplace that describes how to do it?

All you really have to do is put the paper that you're currently using into the rubbermaid lid and place the lid where you normally placed the paper. You can lift them into it, giving them their verbal potty cue to encourage them to use it. You may even add blotted pee or other accidents onto the paper in the lid to give them the idea.

If they already have the paper down pat, they should catch on fairly quickly.

I always recommend layering the newspaper so that you can keep it clean while still leaving some scent on the lower layers of paper.

[jason_els]

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data//500/banghead.gif

I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you can also appreciate that I feel like I have numerous people each telling me something a little different and each one getting offended I don't do what they think is best.

I physically cannot take them out every 30-60 minutes around the clock every day for 3-4 months or longer. I would be dead from exhaustion. If someone tells me they do this then I have to say I have a hard time believing it. You'd have to be a superhuman who has everything delivered, doesn't need to work, has no requirement to ever leave the home, and apparently doesn't need REM sleep.

How did people manage to have housetrained dogs before crating? This is a serious question because what I'm hearing here is this is the only way to do it and every other method results in unreliable dogs. I don't believe that argument at all because I've had dogs and know people who've had dogs who weren't crate trained and they were completely reliable.

Anyway, I started this thread in hopes of trying to find a compromise that results in successful housetraining while allowing me to live. I've gotten some great ideas and I've been reminded of the importance of separating the dogs. Even if we don't agree on everything, I hope you know that I do appreciate the dialog and am very grateful for the assistance. It's a big help to me. Really! :D

[Saje]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you can also appreciate that I feel like I have numerous people each telling me something a little different and each one getting offended I don't do what they think is best.

I physically cannot take them out every 30-60 minutes around the clock every day for 3-4 months or longer. I would be dead from exhaustion. If someone tells me they do this then I have to say I have a hard time believing it. You'd have to be a superhuman who has everything delivered, doesn't need to work, has no requirement to ever leave the home, and apparently doesn't need REM sleep.

How did people manage to have housetrained dogs before crating? This is a serious question because what I'm hearing here is this is the only way to do it and every other method results in unreliable dogs. I don't believe that argument at all because I've had dogs and know people who've had dogs who weren't crate trained and they were completely reliable.

Anyway, I started this thread in hopes of trying to find a compromise that results in successful housetraining while allowing me to live. I've gotten some great ideas and I've been reminded of the importance of separating the dogs. Even if we don't agree on everything, I hope you know that I do appreciate the dialog and am very grateful for the assistance. It's a big help to me. Really! :D

The things you have been told are not sinking in. Doc gives you one last resort option and you automatically leap on it over having to put in the time otherwise. You work at home. It should be easy for you to crate train. Yes there will be times when you will be gone more than three hours. That's normal and you work around it. You haven't give your pups a change to get used to a schedule or a new home before you quit on one program and switch to another.

We've told you again and again that you don't have to get up every 30 minutes during the night. Once should be enough. Especially once they get used to a schedule.

What will you do if you ever have a human baby in the house? If they wake you up you'll just leave them so they don't disrupt your REM? Seriously, it is frustrating. I'm not one who usually pushes crates but with two baby pups it is for their (and your) best interest. They will have some structure, which dogs need. They will be safe and content so you can get some work done. They will be easier to housetrain. And everyone can have some peace of mind. I just wish that would sink in. Yes people have tried other methods and eventually many of them will work.

But just ask doc or any other trainer on this board about the clients they have to deal with who have gotten in over their head. These people know what they are talking about!

[Buddy'sParents]

First, I just want to say that getting ONE puppy is hard work. Night and day- you breathe puppy. The puppy is the most important thing for a period of time as you adjust yourself and him/her to you, you create a bond and figure out who the other is.

Now, you've just gone bonkers and gotten TWO puppies. That is just down right crazy. :yikes: :lol-sign: But, you have made this commitment and for any person with an ounce of honor and respect, you have got to see it through.



The first weeks are always the hardest as they adjust to me and I adjust to them.

Absolutely! We got Buddy at three months and we were cheated on the first week of his life with us as he spent it in an ICU at a pet hospital. But, when he finally did come home, it was a happy time....filled with letting him out to piddle, us taking him on out a leash to do his business, training, loves and cuddles and absolutely freakin' adorable puppy moments.

Annnnd, there were accidents in the house. These were not 'bad puppy' accidents, these were 'bad human' accidents. You must have the time to dedicate to proper house training (and training period) or you will not be happy and your puppies will not be happy. This is all adjustment!

I am not sure of the situation of the pups, but since they are 9 weeks, I am going to assume that you got them from a breeder.. these pups have gone from living the life with mom.. playing with their littermates, eating tons of food and peeing and pooping as they saw fit.

And now, all of a sudden, they are put in a pen, being praised to high heavens for doing natural things like peeing and pooping and they have a stressed out owner, living in a stressful environment.

[I My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.


They need to pee every two hours or you are dragging your tried behind out of bed every two hours and making them pee?

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

A puppy does not come with an adult sized bladder, nor the feelings/notions associated with how small their bladder is and oh! that means they have to piddle! Of course it's absolutely unreasonable to expect an 8 week old puppy to physically hold their fluids for a prolonged period of time. But, you knew that and were just testing our knowledge, right?

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?

Of course not! We had baby gates and Buddy was only allowed in the main living area and kitchen. If we needed to go upstairs or leave the main living area, he was crated as that meant he was going to be left unattended. Being left unattended usually means trouble! lol And, that trouble may very well be peeing or pooping, eating something that you thought was puppy proofed originally, etc.. Crating is not just for housebreaking but that's another thread in itself.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.

Did you not know that having a puppy was full time work? It's a little like having a baby... full time. There is a defenseless being that needs you.. trusts you and is depending on you for all of their needs. You have taken on the responsibility of being that person that they can turn to. Suck it up and take it like a parent.. because that's what you are now.

By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

Why would you want to encourage or praise the behavior of elimination IN THE HOUSE? No wonder it took 8 months.. poor dogs were probably very confused!

The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F.

How long does peeing take?

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.


I have always been under the impression and understanding- that a dog would never pee in it's den... I'm not discounting what Ian Dunbar says, I have a couple of his books, but again, why would a dog WANT to eliminate in their den?

Lastly, yes, folks, this post will indeed end....

Instead of thanking everyone for their replies and saying that they are helpful, I really suggest a good look at all of them. Are you sure you're reading and understanding or are you being defensive in what you have done so far? You have some people on this here thread who have been dog owners for years and years.. you even got two very good trainers and a breeder doing their best to give you advice. I would not take that for granted. ;)

Oh, and you've only had the pups for a few days.. saying that something is not working out is because you have given up.. things need time to work themselves out!

Now, I need some dinner and a nap.. that was long!

[jason_els]

OK, here's a scenario:

First: Both in crates except for the after-poopee safety window when they're with me. I've read the window is anywhere from half an hour to a full hour. If it's not, please let me know.

Here's a sample schedule:

8am -wake, take out dogs, give food and water.
10am - take dogs out again, play with Boomer then Tweeter, replenish water as necessary
12pm - take dogs out again, play with Tweeter then B, re water
2pm - take dogs out again, feed both, train with Boomer then T, re water
3pm - take dogs out again, re water, train with Tweeter then B, re water
5pm - take dogs out again, train with Boomer then T, re water
6pm - take dogs out again, train with Tweeter then B, re water
8pm - take dogs out again, allow pups to play together, re water
9pm - pull water from both
10pm - take dogs out again, quiet play with Boomer and then with Tweeter.
12am - take dogs out again, no play
4am - take dogs out again, no play
8am - repeat

Does this sound like a reasonable schedule for 9 week-old pups? Please feel free to tweak it. I've kept a schedule of what they're doing at various times. Here it is for the past 2 days:

Sunday 2/11

Up at 7:30am
both pee
Tweeter pooped 8:30am (accident)
Both pee, Boomer pooped at 10:30am
Lunch at 11am
both pee 11:30am
nap at 11:40am
2:30pm both peed, tweeter vomited in car
3pm tweeter pooped
3:30 belated lunch
3:45 boomer pooped, both peed
4:15 both asleep in crate
6pm took away food, both peed
6:30 both nap
8:15 tweeter peed (accident)
8:16 boomer peed outside
8:25 playing
9:05 went back to sleep on their own, took away water
10:15 both woke, boomer pooped, both peed
10:25pm both played.
10:45pm both asleep

Monday 2/12

midnight - both pee, Tweeter poops
2:15 both pee, tweeter poops
3:00 vet day. no worms, boomer nearly a lb larger than tweeter.
4:30 both pee, tweeter threw-up in the crate in the car.
fed at 6pm, tweeter threw-up, boomer may have thrown-up in crate in car.
7:45pm both pee, boomer pooped
8:15 half hour with each one-on-one petting, touching them all over. both ok with touching. boomer slept then wanted to explore. tweeter just slept
10:05 both woke, both peed and pooped! played for half an hour. came in and played some more until 11:20.

I'm really trying here. I want this to work, I want to do crate training if I can, I want them to be happy and healthy dogs.

[Saje]

Are you free feeding them? That will really slow down your housetraining as well.

[Saje]

Jason,
These links have really good advice:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49374&postcount=6

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?p=216874#post216874

[dr2little]

That's what I was wondering. Free feeding will make things much more difficult. Getting them on a 3X/day schedule is the best way to go.

[jason_els]

Yes, I am for now. I wasn't aware that it causes issues.

Right now they're on Evo. Should I just feed them a set amount per day broken over 3 feedings (or two?)? Or should I allow them to eat as much as they want for a limited period, like 15 minutes per meal?

[Saje]

Feed them set meals three times a day. EVO might be too potent for them. It's an excellent brand but you might want to go with Innova's regular brand, which is for all life stages I believe. Breaking up their feeding is helpful in housebreaking because they will get on a regular schedule. It also helps you keep track of who is eating how much, what their regular appetites are like and if anything changes. KEY in case of medical problems.

[blue]

You have to keep at it until they do hold it inside. This takes months.

I got BD at 6 weeks, he was taken from his mom at 5 weeks. The people I got him from had started paper training him, that actually kinda helped because he allways trys to find something to get it on rather than the floor, still does. He is 2, I sleepwalk if I shut my bedroom door with a dog on the other side I will most likely have to clean something up in the morning.

Verde came housetrained, she's had an accident or 2. She gets excited and cant hold it, or when she got her shots.

When I go to my parents house they spend a fair amount of time in the garage, or outside as my stepdad isnt fond of dogs in the house due to the cats. Both know to sit and stare at me if they need outside, so thankfully no accidents there. They are allowed inside as long as they are calm.

You asked for this burden when you got a pair of littermates. Dont shirk the responsabilities for your choices. You knew this would take alot of work and sacrifice even before you started, deal with it. You are failing to live up to you sig.

[jason_els]

They're fairly small dogs as adults. About 25-30lbs. Evo should be ok for them from everything I've read.

[sam]

I think it's extremely admirable the amount of thought and care you are putting into these pups. CLICK! If everyone was this conscientious the world would be a better place for dogs.

If you go the paper route as Doc described, it may take your dogs longer to figure things out. To me, that's just fine and perfectly reasonable at 9 weeks.
It's not realistic to think everyone can be around every 2 hrs or 30 mins for their pups until they are trained. I'd rather see someone provide a place for pups to relieve themselves when they are so little than crate them for a bit too long and end up with dogs peeing in crates or being uncomfortable from being expected to hold it too long. If you are really consistent your dogs will learn. You'll be cleaning up messes for longer - your choice, your dogs won't mind ;) .

What I would tweak--

I would encourage you to add a small but VERY appealing treat to your
dance-party-celebration when the pups do pee/poo outside. :D

We humans tend to be awfully stingy be nature and think that somehow rewarding our dogs with food should be avoided or cheapens the relationship somehow. Not so. What it does do is make that moment EXTRA MEMORABLE and noteworthy in the dogs mind.
We praise and love on our dogs for all kinds of things.Talk is cheap as they say. You have basically one primary goal with the pups right now and that's helping them learn where to eliminate. Make it stand out in the dogs mind.
I would chop up last night's left over chicken/steak/cheese into tiny cubes and keep some handy in my pocket for pottying outside.

Imagine a scenario if you will.

You boss comes by and says "Good job Jason. Thanks for the hard work" nice!

Now imagine she comes by and says "Good job Jason. Thanks for the hard work. Here's a $1000 bonus cheque"

Which boss sees a hige increase in productivity? And lucky for you your business won't go under from paying your 'employees' too much.

[jason_els]

Jason,
These links have really good advice:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49374&postcount=6

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?p=216874#post216874

What age pups are they speaking of in those threads, do you know by chance?

[Saje]

All ages.

[jason_els]

You asked for this burden when you got a pair of littermates. Dont shirk the responsabilities for your choices. You knew this would take alot of work and sacrifice even before you started, deal with it. You are failing to live up to you sig.

One pup or 10, it doesn't matter. The problem isn't with the number, it's with the schedule and method.

Thanks for the drive-by poop fling. :(

[blue]

One pup or 10, it doesn't matter. The problem isn't with the number, it's with the schedule and method.

Thanks for the drive-by poop fling. :(

I dealt with it with a 6 week old pup **edit** with a full time job **edit off**, you can deal with 2 9 week old pups. Adjust and adapt, live up to your sig.

I was able to make it work.

[jason_els]

I think it's extremely admirable the amount of thought and care you are putting into these pups. CLICK! If everyone was this conscientious the world would be a better place for dogs.

If you go the paper route as Doc described, it may take your dogs longer to figure things out. To me, that's just fine and perfectly reasonable at 9 weeks.
It's not realistic to think everyone can be around every 2 hrs or 30 mins for their pups until they are trained. I'd rather see someone provide a place for pups to relieve themselves when they are so little than crate them for a bit too long and end up with dogs peeing in crates or being uncomfortable from being expected to hold it too long. If you are really consistent your dogs will learn. You'll be cleaning up messes for longer - your choice, your dogs won't mind ;) .

What I would tweak--

I would encourage you to add a small but VERY appealing treat to your
dance-party-celebration when the pups do pee/poo outside. :D

Thank you Sam! [WAGS TAIL]

I've bought 3 different treats (cheap and expensive) in as many days including bologna slices today. I offer them bits of them and they sniff it, lick it, then drop it. I'm going for string cheese as soon as I can leave the house. We're a bit snowed-in at the moment.

I will try the crate method again (as soon as I can get out to buy another crate). I'm hoping to get responses to my proposed schedule to see if it's ok for me to try it with them.

[sam]

String cheese is a great idea. Very handy and usually popular.

I just used liverwurst as a treat and my dogs went NUTS for it. Literally drooling. That was a first:lol-sign: You could carry the tube around and just give them a wee taste.baby food meat/chicken would work too you could keep the jar by the door and grab it as you go out then let them lick a bit off your finger.

The not eating thing will change when they are a bit more settled in I bet. If they don't seem food motivated right now I would forget dog treats and just stick with meaty human food. If they don't take it right now, that's ok.

[jason_els]

SajeThank you for that advice. I'll move them to a 3x a day schedule. The links are great. I've bookmarked them!

How many hours before bed would be a good time for the last meal and how soon afterwards should I pull water for the night?

[jason_els]

They need to pee every two hours or you are dragging your tried behind out of bed every two hours and making them pee?

That's a good question. They do pee every time I take them out.

I liked your post very much. It got me to re-evaluate and reconsider crate training.

[jason_els]

String cheese is a great idea. Very handy and usually popular.

I just used liverwurst as a treat and my dogs went NUTS for it. Literally drooling. That was a first:lol-sign:

OK, if string cheese doesn't work then we go for liverwurst! Thank you for the tip.

[bubbatd]

Good luck !!!! I'm still lurking !!

[Zoom]

Great post, Buddy'sParents!

Persistance and patience (and ability to funtion on less sleep for a few weeks) are the cornerstones of good puppy raising. :)

[jason_els]

Valentines of poop!

I woke-up this morning and there was no pee anywhere. I've been taking them out every two hours. On top of that, they're telling me when they need to go. They make a whine, different from their other whines, and they start looking anxious. I scoop-up the pup and run out the door and voila! Poop!

It's pretty amazing!

The only thing I've changed is limiting the newspaper area on the floor and withdrawing food at 7pm and water at 10pm. Last time out is 2am and then another out at 5am. They had one newspaper pee, but every time I take them out, they pee. They like the bologna and today Tweeter had success in learning recall! I called him from outside and with constant calling and waving bologna at him, he followed without hesitation. Boomer isn't as consistent. He likes to stay in the kitchen and investigate. It probably helps that it's so **** cold out, but I'm not complaining. I'm just blown away by how far they've come in just 3 days.

I haven't been able to get out yet because the plow guy hasn't shown-up and the roads are ice, but I'll be buying the second crate as soon as I can get out.

You think they got up in the night and read this thread?

[Saje]

Good news. :) Sounds like they are settling in.

[sam]

Congrats on a 'only one pee on the paper day' ! Sounds good. :D

Great they are starting to take food from you-- not sure I'd want my recall cue to be "constant calling and bologna waving" though :lol-sign:

Great that they are whining to go out and you are able to discern the different whines-- that will sure help speed the process along.

[bubbatd]

Kudos !!! Is your bed close enough for you to hear them during the night ?? Maybe they're ready to sleep longer .

[jason_els]

My bed is literally 10 feet away. They're penned in the master bathroom. The bath area has an extra wide entry, no door, and is extra large as it was designed for a disabled person. I've moved the computer and desk area in the bedroom as well so I'm with them nearly all day and have them in direct line of sight.

[Doberluv]

Congratulatons!

[dr2little]

Progress.....sweet!!!!:)

[jason_els]

Thank you! Glad I'm not entirely disappointing. :)

[blue]

Way to go Jason.

[Doberluv]

Thank you! Glad I'm not entirely disappointing.

You're not. Just do as you're told and stay on the straight and narrow and everything will be fine. :D

[Zoom]

Yay good news!

[doberkim]

One pup or 10, it doesn't matter. The problem isn't with the number, it's with the schedule and method.

Thanks for the drive-by poop fling. :(

my comments -
yes it does matter how many pups there are. its innately harder to train something ONE dog needs to know when you are distracted by another pup. you have to watch for TWo signals, in focusing on one dog (especially when they are together) you have given the other pup an opportunity to be ignored as you focus on that one. and when one pup makes a mess, the other is likely to follow.

Valentines of poop!

I woke-up this morning and there was no pee anywhere. I've been taking them out every two hours. On top of that, they're telling me when they need to go. They make a whine, different from their other whines, and they start looking anxious. I scoop-up the pup and run out the door and voila! Poop!

i would not scoop up and run - are you going to carry them all the time?

y Tweeter had success in learning recall! I called him from outside and with constant calling and waving bologna at him, he followed without hesitation. Boomer isn't as consistent. H

i think this is a big thing - you are not outside with the pups on leash? that is HUGE issue with training - you cannot jackpot them if they go, or prevent them from wandering and doing whta they want when its time to do potty things. my dogs when being trained, are not allowed to wander and have fun until the pooping and peeing is DONE. they go, i jackpot, and voila, fun time off leash! does it suck? yes - but i spent a horrible winter in MA with a 10 month old male doberman who tried to mark in the house at any given chance, as well as a 9 year old dobe bitch who had previously been an outside dog, housebreaking both of them. did i hate standing outside in 4 foot drifts of snow? you bet - but stand out there i did until they went!

[jason_els]

Hi doberkim!

I take them outside, play, and train with them separately.

Scoop-and-run is recommended by all the training books I have. Better to interrupt the flow and whisk them outside than to allow them to only make it part way and have to go in the house. I do not plan to always carry them, however it's about 60 feet to the potty door and most 9 week old pups don't have much grace time between when they need to go and when they actually let go. Tweeter's learning recall very well. He will follow me down the hall and out the door. Boomer gets distracted very easily. I expect things will get better, after all, they've been with me less than a week.

Yes I am outside with them. What gave you the idea I wasn't? Right now I am not using a leash because collars distract them no end. I'm gradually introducing collars to them and have ordered the break-aways just to be safe. When I took them outside using the collar they spent the entire time trying to get it off. We go outside, I urge them to pee or poop or both and only after they accomplish do they get a treat.

Does this explanation satisfy your curiosity?

I'm so sorry to hear of your bad weather experiences however I haven't told you about raising my last puppy in -40F weather in Colorado in the winter of 1986 in Steamboat Springs (if you don't believe me look it up) and what it took to make sure we didn't get frostbite on a simple pee break. If you want to get into a contest of who was more miserable, I would definitely win.

[Love That Collie]

Congratulations Jason.
I'm glad to see your confidence returning.
I think you just got overwhelmed by it all by overthinking your situation and possibly some other things thrown at you at one time. :D

If you remember (on your previous thread) I said to the effect, consistency is the the key. And even if you miss some sleep as we all have.

And just to let you know, I have (as MANY others have) housetrained oodles of pups...........I NEVER had one that suffered ANYTHING because their water was discontinued over night. And yes, controlling their water and food intake will shorten the housetraining nightmare. :)

And as for the man on the Weather Channel, he probably was talking about leaving a dog outside for a period exceeding the potty break time.
Great to hear things are looking up and isn't it great how a positive "happening" will boost you up just a little!

[jason_els]

Congratulations Jason.
I'm glad to see your confidence returning.
I think you just got overwhelmed by it all by overthinking your situation and possibly some other things thrown at you at one time. :D

Thank you! :) I think so too. Leaving my old job, starting a new business, helping my father, and a whole host of changes are causing me a lot of stress.

If you remember (on your previous thread) I said to the effect, consistency is the the key. And even if you miss some sleep as we all have.

We've gone 2 days with no accidents. I withdrew water last night and now have them on 3 feedings a day (9am, 2pm, 7pm). I'm kind of floored that just keeping a schedule has done so much for them in 4 days. I'm crossing my fingers!

And as for the man on the Weather Channel, he probably was talking about leaving a dog outside for a period exceeding the potty break time.

The vet was a woman :D

Great to hear things are looking up and isn't it great how a positive "happening" will boost you up just a little!

I'm very happy. Tweeter is doing really well. He now follows me to the door, knows his name, and generally comes when I call. I started doing clicker training today and I'm excited about that. I'm a bit worried about Boomer. He's like a big dumb jock type. All muscle and no brain. He needs work as he hasn't picked-up anything his brother has despite the same training time.

Thank you for the encouragement! :)

[Doberluv]

We've gotten about a week or two of 30 below zero the last couple of winters. My dogs go out to potty and come right back in. It's not that big of a deal. Yes, I'm sure the person on the weather channel meant not to leave dogs outside for prolonged periods.

Jason, I hope you understand my rather slap stick humor. It's not meant as an insult. It's more of an elbow in the ribs sort of joshing. You're coming along great.

[jason_els]

We've gotten about a week or two of 30 below zero the last couple of winters.

Ah Idaho.... I have 2 friends from Idaho, Lewiston and Moscow.

Jason, I hope you understand my rather slap stick humor. It's not meant as an insult. It's more of an elbow in the ribs sort of joshing. You're coming along great.


Thank you. Given the, how shall I put it, concern? I tried not to be overly defensive but I did feel as though I was getting it from all sides when what I'm trying to do is just keep everything together. Just keeps ringing through my head, no good deed goes unpunished. :)

So who are you? Someone in another thread was very impressed with your training credentials. Now I'm curious. I keep picturing Maurice's survivalist girlfriend with the two dobermans on Northern Exposure. "Perimeter!," she ordered and the dogs flew off to patrol her property. I remembered that command. I was impressed.

[Maxy24]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_els View Post
Valentines of poop!

I woke-up this morning and there was no pee anywhere. I've been taking them out every two hours. On top of that, they're telling me when they need to go. They make a whine, different from their other whines, and they start looking anxious. I scoop-up the pup and run out the door and voila! Poop!
i would not scoop up and run - are you going to carry them all the time?

I think it is good to scoop up the pup when he is about to go, if you walk him out he can still stop squat and pee, eventually he will not pick them up, but for now it is the right thing to do. Congratulations jason! I'm glad things are progressing nicely.

[jason_els]

Thanks Maxy! :) I've got my fingers crossed.

As of yesterday I've managed to convince both of them to follow me to and from their scheduled breaks by bribing them with treats. Boomer gets distracted much more easily than Tweeter so sometimes I still scoop him. About the only time I'm doing it now is for unexpected need breaks.

Today we did the first morning run and both pooped! I hope this means I'm getting them synchronized. :hail:

[Doberluv]

Better than bribing would be to entice them in another way, a playful voice, running the other way from them, patting your thigh and THEN when they come along, rewarding them with a tasty treat which you have hidden in your pocket. Don't bribe...(hold out the treat BEFORE they give you the behavior you want) or that will become part of your cue where by they become dependent on your showing them a treat first. Until they become reliable with coming along with you by enticement, don't use a cue such as, "come" or "let's go." Wait until they come by encouragement and they do it regularily, then start attaching the cue words, "let's go" with the behavior, not before. Get that sunken in that those words are tied with the behavior. Eventually, you'll be able to use the cue word before hand and they'll come along to you. Then reward with a treat/praise. Fade out the playful antics as your cue words take hold. Much later, you'll be able to put it on a variable reward schedule where they don't get a treat every single time. But for now, while they're so young and still learning this "skill," keep rewarding them a lot, every time to get it solid. You'll want to get a good, reliable recall on them and this is a good way to start. Show them to walk alongside you too, by patting your leg, encouraging them. It will make it easier when you use a leash if they already find it rewarding to walk next to you. Reinforce very frequently as they take a couple more steps along side you. Good luck.

edit: I forgot to mention...be sure that when you reward them for compliance, that you do so within 3 seconds of the behavior. The closer to simultaneous as you can get, the better. After 3 seconds, they're onto something else and that is what you'll be reinforcing, not the behavior you were targetting.:)

[jason_els]

...entice them in another way, a playful voice, running the other way from them, patting your thigh and THEN when they come along

I do that too, usually just to get them in the house. As I'm reading the books I'm being very conscious of facing my body and feet away from them as part of the enticement. They come in, get a treat for that then get a treat for coming into their room and going into their crates. I try to treat them every time I ask them to go into their crates. I want to make them happy places with lots of good things.