20 inch sheltie

[rabbitsarebetter]

something bugging me...
i bought Ruckus from a breeder, he DOES have champion blood lines. he is a full blooded sheltie...
or is he!
he is pushing 20 inches now at 9 months old :(
i didnt know that they could get that big! he is already 32 lbs!

is it that collie blood? in the past shelties were breed with collies and i guess sometimes more collie comes out than sheltie? in his family he has had many oversized shelties, but not this big! his grandma was 18 inches, that is his closest oversize relative.

[Jynx]

i doubt he has collie blood, he is probably just going to be an oversized sheltie.. he's still very cute tho *vbg*
diane

[rabbitsarebetter]

thank you!

[Laurelin]

Due to the crossbreeding to collies long ago, shelties from even the most solid lines can have oversized pups. It's one of the major problems with the breed. It's very common, and I've rarely seen shelties that were actually within size. Both mine are small- trey's actually undersized lol. But he has an oversized brother I believe. Ch x Ch parentage. Size is just one of those major things that the breed deals with. I've seen shelties reaching near 50 lbs.

So to answer your question, is your boy part collie? Yes, he is. So are all other shelties in the US and in Europe. I can trace my boy Trey back to a bunch of collie and collie crosses. In order to make the dogs imported from the sheltand islands more show friendly, many breeders crossed their dogs to 'unregistered shelties' aka collies. It helped make the sheltie that perfect 'miniature lassie' but it also helped the size issues. Shelties and collies had been crossed before the show world was involved too on the Shetland islands. Most, if not all, the first shelties brought to the US were collie crosses.

Here's a link to the most influential sire of the American sheltie. I've read places saying he constitutes about a fourth of the average sheltie's pedigree.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/WeeLaird.html

You can see how much collie he had in him.

Here's a page talking about the common practices of crossbreeding with collies- http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Colliecross.html

Hope that helps some. :)

[BostonBanker]

Do you know if the size has decreased in the last decade or two? Or has the standard always been the same. I ask because a friend and I have discussed Shelties we knew in our childhoods, and both of us remember them being considerably larger. Granted, some of that may be because we were smaller;) , but it's one of those things I keep meaning to ask.

[colliewog]

Something to consider - there were larger dogs in his pedigree, but they could have been the smallest from their litters. The genetics are there, even if they didn't use the big ones for breeding.

[bubbatd]

It's not the size of the dog ... but the size of their hearts . More to love !!!

[Laurelin]

I agree, size doesn't make him any less sheltie. But the developement of the sheltie is kind of fascinating and the amount of inbreeding and crossing with these dogs is amazing. I bought the coolest old huge sheltie book at half price bookstore for $8. It has a lot of interesting things in it. I bought it because it had an article about Trey's kennel with his grandmother's picture in it. It has a ton of pedigrees and articles about major kennels. I thought it was a good investiment but my friends thought i was insane. lol

For example, some interesting facts:

Chesnut lady who is thought to be a collie makes up 22% of the American sheltie gene pool.

The blue merle gene wasn't always in the sheltie breed, but is also attributed to three different collie crosses.

I don't know if size has gone down any since then. One would think they would, but most BYB sheltie breeders give little thought to size. That's not to say all oversized shelties are from bybs. Many come from show stock that was in size. Of my three shelties, Rosie would've been about 35 lbs at adulthood had she lived that long. Trey is 18 lbs full grown and many people don't recognize him as a sheltie, but assume he's a cross. Nikki if she were back at her ideal weight would be about 20 to 21 lbs. The akc standard lists them between 13 and 16 inches. Trey's 14 inches so technically he's within standard. He looks tiny, though:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h126/Gloriedogz/treysmall.jpg
No, that's not me. But it gives you a size idea.

When the sheltie was originally accepted into the KC in 1909, the height maximum was 12 inches.

[wolfsoul]

My friend breeds shelties. In one of her litters many many years ago out of two champions parents (14 and 15 inches), she had nice small shelties, and one whopping 20 incher. Sometimes genetics can give you a throwback.

[rabbitsarebetter]

thanks!!!
i feel better now :)

btw i took pics of my big boy today! i hope to have them up monday ;)

[Paige]

My sheltie was extremely wide. People thought she was a cross with a bulldog. She was the runt too! She was a little chubby in her elderly years but I remember I weighed her when she was 5 and she weighed 36 pounds and wasn't the least bit fat. She was taller then every sheltie I've ever met too. So small when we got her and then BAM! She got huge.

[rabbitsarebetter]

Ruckus is pretty leggy too, and he has a collie head and face.... in comparasson to other shelties i have seen anyway.

[Paige]

Mine wasn't leggy at all. She was all upper body. Built like a tank. She was built terribly but she was my childhood dog. She was perfect in my eyes.

[rabbitsarebetter]

ohhh i see! goes to show that shelties come in all shapes and sizes.
some look like collies, or border collies
some look like poms, or foxes!
i have seen some that looked like sheperd mixes too.

[Paige]

She was a very poorly bred dog. She started having eye problems from a very young age. So sad but she was the greatest companion ever.

My mom bought her from like a puppymill operation. I remember going there and wondering why they had so many puppies. It was so confusing. All the little faces. I wanted this little grey puppy, my brother wanted this beagle looking thing, and my mom (who was totally drunk and wouldnt in the right mind ever buy a dog from such an awful place and who has thankfully stopped drinking) was all "LOOK KIDS ITS LASSIE!"

Sad thing is the poor dog had so many problems in her old age. Bestfriend I could of ever asked for though. I know I would of loved that grey dog too but I am so glad I got the dog I did. It was fate.

[Laurelin]

Part of the reasons shelties vary so much is from the origins. The sheepdogs from the shetland islands varied dramatically in looks. Some were miniature collie look alikes, many looked like border collies, many had rather short snouts, and many looked like 'foxes' (As they are described, I'm assuming spitz like or something.) Supposedly they started out as terrier x border collie ancestors but whenever collies were brought over to the islands were crossed with them. No one knows for sure how such a small collie like breed got there, those are just speculations. By the time people began to be interested in them, there were two types and for all purposes were basically two different breeds. One was a dog that was very BC/old style collie looking and the other was more like a modern show type collie. Both were labeled shelties. Other dog fanciers saw all the variation and practically wrote the dogs off as mongrels. People wanted to standardize them, and most were involved in show and favored the showy version of the sheltie. The working people did not approve of this and thought that sheltie should be only the dogs that are the working dogs on the shetland islands. The other people got mad and began a toy collie project, but eventually the show type sheltie people won the battle so to speak. The dogs were crossed with collies to breed towards the type you see today. The sheltie was registered as the Shetland Collie in 1909 but the collie club was upset with that and the name was changed to the shetland sheepdog. Nowadays shelties should be getting standardized towards the more show collie look. Even shelties that herd (which there are few serious herders in this day and age) do not look like the older version but more like the 'showy version'.

Sorry for the long post, but I've gotten into reading this history book abour shelties and it's really interesting.

The pictures are fascinating in this book. It shows dogs from the very early show lines all the way through the 80s. The difference is dramatic. It also has an illustrated standard and loads of pedigrees. <3

Just do a google image search and pull up sheltie pics, it's a lot of variation.

[Paige]

^Thats true. Just like every border collie I see looks so different. I have two brothers from the same litter and they oddly look nothing a like except for the fact they are both black and white.

Shelties are such wonderful dogs. Do they still have herding trails for them like they do for border collies? My sheltie had a huge herd drive in her. It was so cute to watch her try and herd the hamsters when they were running around in their balls.

[bumhouse]

I have just the opposite problem. Colt is an undersized Collie - at least I think he is going to be. Very leggy and often mistaken for a Sheltie (although to an experienced eye he does not have the facial features of a Sheltie and the legs are way to long). He is 8 months old next week and only 21 lbs. He was not the runt either. But like Bubba said - he has a huge heart. I often think of getting another Collie (from a reputable breeder this time) but I feel bad for Colt. I may end up with a Collie from a Collie rescue so I can save one and skip the difficult puppy thing.

I think Ruckus is just perfect....

[rabbitsarebetter]

oh geez! thats one tiny collie!
he is half the size of the ones i work with!

either way hes a cutie, you need to put up some more pictures!

[Laurelin]

^Thats true. Just like every border collie I see looks so different. I have two brothers from the same litter and they oddly look nothing a like except for the fact they are both black and white.

Shelties are such wonderful dogs. Do they still have herding trails for them like they do for border collies? My sheltie had a huge herd drive in her. It was so cute to watch her try and herd the hamsters when they were running around in their balls.

They do have herding trials and some shelties do compete. I know several people that herd with their shelties. There's just not many people around that have herds of sheep that choose shelties as their herding dogs. Some shelties have the drive, most don't or have very little in this day and age.

Wow, Colt is a little collie! He definitely has the collie face structure, though. And I agree, we need more pictures! ;)

[SummerRiot]

Because hes already fixed, i just wouldn't worry about his size anymore ;) Conformation showing is already out with him, But look forward to all of the other types of showing events you can participate in with him! :)

Brains over bronze is always a plus!!

Both Crosbie and Jada have an extensively impressive pedigree.. yet Crosbie is over the standard size and Jada isn't.

[bumhouse]

I always get the "is he a miniature collie?" ugh.

I knew I wasn't getting a "perfect" collie though and we love him tons. I'll take some new pictures today so check back this evening.

I don't know how to do a siggy.

[Laurelin]

Because hes already fixed, i just wouldn't worry about his size anymore ;) Conformation showing is already out with him, But look forward to all of the other types of showing events you can participate in with him! :)

Brains over bronze is always a plus!!

Both Crosbie and Jada have an extensively impressive pedigree.. yet Crosbie is over the standard size and Jada isn't.

What lines are your two?

Trey's litter was Ch Jade Mist Beyond Tradition ROM ROMC x Am/Can Ch Springtime She's Revealing.

In his litter I think Chevy was oversized and Bitsy champed and Trey was in size but on the small end.

And I always get asked if mine are miniature collies too. :rolleyes:

[Laurelin]

I always get the "is he a miniature collie?" ugh.

I knew I wasn't getting a "perfect" collie though and we love him tons. I'll take some new pictures today so check back this evening.

I don't know how to do a siggy.

To put a picture in your sig, upload the picture to photobucket or some source then go to the CP. Click on sig and type this:

url of picture

[rabbitsarebetter]

Ruckus is doing great in disk dog training BTW
one thing his size IS good for :) lol

[bumhouse]

I'm a really bad picture taker - but, as promised.....
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k241/bumhouse/100_0953.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k241/bumhouse/100_0954.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k241/bumhouse/100_0950.jpg

[rabbitsarebetter]

whoa do you realize how much he has grown!

[bumhouse]

OMG - YES!!

I don't know if you know this but Colt was only 6 weeks old and 4LBS!! when we brought him home. Thank God he survived!! And has turned out to be a great dog. He was just weaned when we got him and we didn't know any better then.

We think he's precious and a gift from God to us....

[SummerRiot]

http://www.nexicom.net/~playland/dallas.htm

This is jada and Crosbies daddy :)

[Laurelin]

Beautiful dog!

Trey's daddy is here: http://enclaveshelties.com/dillon.jpg

http://www.shadymist.com/images/dillonhd.jpg

http://www.d7.dion.ne.jp/~sheltie/CH,Jade_Mist_Beyond_Tradition.jpg

RIP Dillon

[SummerRiot]

AW!~ You can really see Treys daddy in him eh! :)

Beautiful coat!!

[Melissa_W]

Trey looks just like his daddy! They are both so adorable!

[Tankstar]

I just call mine a collie. As when i say he is a sheltie. I get the million questions of why is he so big? Is he a mix? ect. easier for me to just say he is a collie lol. he is about 21 inchs (last time i checked) at the holders and 65lbs. So he is no where near a sheltie. I also got him at a petstore, before i knew about puppy mills and why it was wrong to buy them from there ect. So that may also be a reason as to why he is so big, and more then likly poorly bred. At 4 years old though he is healthy as can be for a pet store puppy has no health problems. I pray he will stay like this for the next 10 years or so.

[bumhouse]

Yeah, that's what I should do - just call him a Sheltie because he is such a small Collie. Avoid all the questions.

[Laurelin]

I just call mine a collie. As when i say he is a sheltie. I get the million questions of why is he so big? Is he a mix? ect. easier for me to just say he is a collie lol. he is about 21 inchs (last time i checked) at the holders and 65lbs. So he is no where near a sheltie. I also got him at a petstore, before i knew about puppy mills and why it was wrong to buy them from there ect. So that may also be a reason as to why he is so big, and more then likly poorly bred. At 4 years old though he is healthy as can be for a pet store puppy has no health problems. I pray he will stay like this for the next 10 years or so.

I'll admit it, I thought your dog was a collie. :o

With a small sheltie you get the same questions. For some reason my BYB female sheltie doesn't get anything other than sheltie or miniature collie as a guess. She's not a horrible example of the breed confomration wise, but she's certainly not great. She's in size, has one prick ear, and is a bit finer boned (yet now chubby) than usual. Trey, who is show lined, however, is rarely identified as a sheltie. He's small- but still in size, yet everyone thinks he's a mix. I met one family with a 6 month sheltie pup that was probably about 25-30 pounds that tried to convince me that there was no way Trey was purebred. They thought he was part pom. O.o Their reasoning- he was small and way too fluffy to be a sheltie. I told her that that wasn't the case as he comes from show parents, but the lady just said that the mother could've gotten out while she was in heat. Poor Buddy lol.

Trey says thank you for the compliments, everyone. He certainly does look like his daddy did.

[rabbitsarebetter]

ruckus is mistanken for a
collie
border collie
german shepard (WTF?)
mixed
aussie

[bumhouse]

Part Pom:yikes: No way - I don't see that at all!!

I think he's beautiful!! All dogs are - no matter what they are or where they came from, as long as ya love em'!!

Nobody gets the tri or merle thing - people don't see enough of them to know that they are Collies/Shelties too....they think Lassie....one track mind.

I bet nobody guesses when it's a smooth??!!

[rabbitsarebetter]

omg, i swear i thought i was the only person who knew smooths existed. even when i showed up on my first day at work with the collie kennel i was somehow suprised to see smooths.

[Melissa_W]

Oh, I definitely think Trey looks like a Sheltie. A very cute one at that!

Kai is actually within the height and weight standard, but he's always much shorter and more petite than Shelties we see around town.

People usually ask if he's a female border collie puppy! lol

[Love That Collie]

Nope, I knew smooths exisisted. hehehe :D
Chloe's sire is a smooth, rough factored..Chloe is rough.
However, I know people who see smooths and think they've been
shaven for the summer. :rolleyes:

[rabbitsarebetter]

another reason i was shocked on my first day at work is that out of 28 dogs, only 5 are rough.

smooth blues everywhere!

lol, this has gotten really off topic

[colliewog]

Sometimes I just wonder where people get their ideas. My poor smooths are:

Collie mixes (on a good day)
Irish Wolfhounds (for my blues ???)
Greyhound mixes - never pure greyhound
Salukis (??? yeah, once)
Shepherd x Doberman mix (my tricolor)
Sheltie-Collie (apparently that's a breed??????)
Standard Sheltie or Collie (uh huh)

but the best is the

"Oh, you shaved her!"
"No, she's a smooth-coated Collie" (the coated part makes it easier ...usually)
"I've never heard of that. So what does the hair look like before you shaved it?"
"She hasn't been shaved. This is her normal coat. They're born this way."
"Oh, okay. So when does it get long like a regular Collie?"
"Oh, would you look at the time! We've got to go!" lol

I also make people listen to my history lecture (which most people get if they stand still long enough). But there's the occasional person who says "I like the long-haired ones better, don't you?" Uh, NO! I have no problem with someone liking the roughs better, but don't you think it I wanted a rough, I'd have a rough???

I feel sorry for all of you who have to defend your dog - why can't people ever believe us?!?!?!?!

[rabbitsarebetter]

LOL!!!
i should ask my boss what people have mistaked her smooths for

[Tankstar]

ruckus is mistanken for a

german shepard (WTF?)


I got that wth Blaze, on more then one occasion. A few people have stopped me and said what a lovly GSD you have. I said no I dont. And they oh yes he i lovly, I said yes a lovley collie he is, he is no part GSD.

[bumhouse]

I KNEW we'd hear from you Colliewog - with your beautiful SMOOTH Onesti Collies!!!

[colliewog]

I KNEW we'd hear from you Colliewog - with your beautiful SMOOTH Onesti Collies!!!

I follow any thread that has mention of Collie! :p

[bumhouse]

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7630550
Hey, Colliewog -
Does this look like a smooth collie to you? He is very handsome. I am contemplating a rescue though not this one as I have small children.

(Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment)