Koolie Breeding

[Laurelin]

I got to thinking (usually a bad sign) on the blind puppy thread more about the merle gene.

What do you think about the breeding of Koolies a breed where most breeders only consider merle to be an acceptable color? Is it ethical?

From the Toolalla koolie site:


We completely avoid solid coloured or black and white coolies because we believe they are not "true coolies' but rather 'throw backs' and therefore, should not be bred from. The percentage of solid coloured coolies has been increasing with many breeders having difficulty finging homes for solids. We don't add to the problem by breeding a type that is often not desired.

The problem is that merle is a heterozygous condition and cannot be made to breed true. it's genetically impossible. They'd have to cross a merle to a solid or a merle to a merle to get merles, and each of those crosses only produces half the puppies that are merle. You can't avoid non-merles in litters. You could produce litters of completely double merles or completely solids, but not completely merlss. Yet all pups that are shown in litters are shown as merles. What happened to the half of the litter that should be either solid or homozygous merle? Is it right to breed a 'working breed' with color as one of the foremost important traits of the breed? and especially considering that the merle gene has long been known to be destructive?

Of course there are some breeders that actually breed and keep these 'throwbacks' but they seem to be a minority.

I dunno, it's just a topic rarely covered and I wanted to know what you all think.

[mrose_s]

thats interesting. i don't know a lot about genes determining the colours and such, and koolies are the one vreed that i really have trouble finding any relevant info on "koolies" so i don't even know the breed very well. there is a chance i could see a full blood koolie and i would pas it off as a ACD mix.

but i think i see your point. especially working dogs should not be bred for colour. they should be bred if they have great work ethic (don't attack me, also the dogs should be health tested etc)

for instance, they have the standard black and white bc's, then they have merle and red. sure the red and merle are rarer. but people that want a good working dog are going to be looking at how its works. not at its colour. some people just don't get it i suppose

[joce]

I always wondered the ethics on chineese cresteds. don't a fourth of them get a lethal allele? I have heard sometimes they are born alive and die slowly. But I haven't looked into it that much so I'm not posatvie.

I need to look up on the merle genetics-I hear so many dog breeds have issues with it but I have never had a merle breed so I never really looked into it.

[chinchow]

Anyone that concerened in colouration in a herding breed is a little crazy. Most herding breeds are solid or bi, not merle. To be fiddling with such a colour to that extreme seems completely irresponsible.

[Laurelin]

I always wondered the ethics on chineese cresteds. don't a fourth of them get a lethal allele? I have heard sometimes they are born alive and die slowly. But I haven't looked into it that much so I'm not posatvie.

I need to look up on the merle genetics-I hear so many dog breeds have issues with it but I have never had a merle breed so I never really looked into it.

Well in cresteds you're only supposed to breed hairless to powderpuff to avoid the homozygous recessive. If you avoid breeding hairless to hairless then half the pups will be hairless and half powderpuff. If you breed a hairless and a hairless half the pusp will be hairless, a fourth powderpuff and a fourth lethal.

Merle works thesame way. In other breeds where it is common and has been common for a long time- ie collies and shelties- it is very very very rarely practised to cross merle and merle. The breeders who do are generally looked down upon. Merle x merle crossings occur more often in dachshunds and are basically all the crosses going on in many koolie lines. The breeders who keep the solids and tris around are scorned for breeding these 'throwbacks'. Its a reason why many chihuahua and pom breeders were against merle in their breeds not only because of suspected crossing but also to keep the gene out of their lines as it contributes to health problems.

[BostonBanker]

I've wondered about that as well. I'm currently fighting a mad obsession with koolies, so I've seen that breeder's site. I will say, the other breeders I've found online do not have such an obsession with the color, and usually have both merle and solid breeding dogs. Although I adore the merles, many of the solids I've seen are really neat lookin dogs as well.

I'll be interested to see any other replies.

[Laurelin]

Yeah, I do notice that breeders do not always have that color obsession, but enough in koolies do that it makes me wonder. In almost all other breeds merle is seen as one color of many. By keeping the other colors and not breeding merle x merle you avoid health risks It just seems irresponsible to purposefully breed only merles.


the thing that started me thinking about this was that a person I know got two koolie pups from a breeder (not this one). He stated that he ONLY kept merles and only bred merles. He also stated that he had not had a solid puppy OR a double merle in 10 years because he has 'bred them out'. Well, anyone who knows anything about genetics knows that that claim is impossible. It's not possible to breed for a hybrid state, and it cannot ever be acheived as breeding true. The best you can get is 50:50 no matter what pairing. The only difference is in one pairing you get 50% solids and the other you get 25% solids and 25% lethal whites.

It just makes me wonder what's happening to all those unaccounted for pups in these lines...

[ihartgonzo]

It's sad that this breeder considers solid-colored dogs a "problem"... >:[

ANY breeder who makes color that much of a priority should be completely avoided, IMHO! Especially considering the health risks.

I have only ever seen merle Koolies, and they're awesome dogs. I have also never seen a Koolie (in person at least) with very much white at all. For some reason, I assumed that because they lack white, they somehow had less of a risk of producing lethal merles. Thanks for bringing this up... I never even thought about it.

[BostonBanker]

Laurelin -

Did the person you know get his in AU or in the US? What were the dogs like temperment wise? I'm trying to get some more information on them, but haven't had a ton of luck.

[BostonBanker]

Couldn't you breed a double merle to a solid and get 100%? It still doesn't make his claim accurate, or ethically correct, but it is an answer to how you could get all merle.

[jess2416]

Couldn't you breed a double merle to a solid and get 100%? It still doesn't make his claim accurate, or ethically correct, but it is an answer to how you could get all merle.

Im not sure about other breeds (im guessing it would be the same) but I know in catahoula's if you breed a solid to an excessive white you would get all leopards (merle's)

[Laurelin]

Yeah, you would, but it is impossible to get avoiding the double merles, which to me are too risky to breed in the first place. And there's no way he could have done that without having dogs with large amounts of whites or solids in his breeding program. A double merle is fine to breed from if bred to a solid, it's the getting of the double merle that's tricky.

His claim was that he was breeding merle x merle and had 'bred out' the other 'undesirable' colors.

[Laurelin]

Oh, she got her pups from a breeder in the US, but I can't remember his name. They seemed to be good dogs, but I haven't talked to her since they were pups. It wasn't a breeder I'd go to, though, by the sounds of things.

[~Jessie~]

I do not think that any breed should have primarily merles. I completely disagree with breeding merle x merle.

[FoxyWench]

breeding merel to merle in ANY breed is very dangerous, i think that "breeder" claiming he only breeds merles is full of it. either that or his culling ALOT of pups in litters because of genetic defects comming from a merle to merle relationship.

[Oski]

Yeah, I do notice that breeders do not always have that color obsession, but enough in koolies do that it makes me wonder. In almost all other breeds merle is seen as one color of many. By keeping the other colors and not breeding merle x merle you avoid health risks It just seems irresponsible to purposefully breed only merles.


the thing that started me thinking about this was that a person I know got two koolie pups from a breeder (not this one). He stated that he ONLY kept merles and only bred merles. He also stated that he had not had a solid puppy OR a double merle in 10 years because he has 'bred them out'. Well, anyone who knows anything about genetics knows that that claim is impossible. It's not possible to breed for a hybrid state, and it cannot ever be acheived as breeding true. The best you can get is 50:50 no matter what pairing. The only difference is in one pairing you get 50% solids and the other you get 25% solids and 25% lethal whites.

It just makes me wonder what's happening to all those unaccounted for pups in these lines...

Wouldn't it be the similar scenario as eye color in humans??? (Only, meryl genes are incomplete dominance, which gives different phenotypical ratios...but for demonstrating the heterozygous gene) For example I have green/blue eyes but both my parents have brown eyes..therefore, they have to both be heterozygous in the brown gene or it wouldn't have been possible for me to have blue eyes.

My parents heterozygous would be equivalent to the meryl gene
My green eyes would be equivalent to the solid gene

Therefore it is not possible to completely eliminate the solid color by only breeding meryl's...I guess the only way you would be able to do this is if you had a way of telling if one of your meryls was homozygous, like some brown eyed people are...but I don't even know if it is possible for a meryl gene to be homozygous, aren't they all heterozygous??? Therefore you will always have a chance of getting a solid pup.

[Psyfalcon]

I think you would need a pair of double merles. MM x MM= MM Some are apparently born without defect, but I don't think it guarantees that the young would be without defect. The double merles are should be somewhat identifiable, and extra so if the breeder was unethical enough to use the blind or deaf dogs for breeding.

[BostonBanker]

Assuming it's the same with all breeds:

MM = excessive white (two merle genes, often causes defects)
mm = solid color/no merling
Mm = typical merle

Therefore:

MM x mm = 100%Mm

MmxMm = 25%MM, 50%Mm, 25%mm

MMxMM = 100%MM

Mmxmm = 50%Mm, 50%mm

mmxmm = 100%mm

Since, ideally, nobody is breeding for or with the double merle, the last two are the only crosses that should happen.

[Psyfalcon]

MM x mm

If one had a double merle though, there should not be any additional risk in breeding it? It brings up a nice can of worms if a "reputable" breeder acquired one though. Perhaps I see it happening occasionally, especially with working dogs, where there is more of chance of visiting the neighbor's merle than the average suburban breeder with leash laws?

[wolfsoul]

It actually can depend on the breed. I was going to acquire a catahoula a couple of years ago and belonged to a very active catahoula board with plenty of breeders. I asked why I didn't see excessive whites in 90% of the litter pages I looked at that had two merle parents -- they told me that it is thought that catahoulas more commonly absorb unhealthy pups than other breeds -- thus eliminating alot of the excessive whites (homozygous or "double merles") that would have been born. They also don't happen in every itter -- a punnettsquare will tell you that 25% of the litter will be double merle (so if you have 4 puppies, only one will be double merle), but the puppy may have been absorbed, or it just didn't happen. Genetically speaking, a groenendael that carries terv when bred to another groenendael that carries terv SHOULD have terv puppies -- but sometimes they only have groenendael pups. Who knows.

I don't completely disagree with it when you know what you are doing. Since a double merle, when bred to a solid, will produce only merle, it can be a huge benefit to a breeding program-- if you are looking for that one "perfect" merle puppy to continue on your breeding program, you want to heighten your chances of getting it. A double merle can do that for you by giving you an entire litter of merles to choose from. Breeding a heavily merled, non-white factored merle, to another non-white factored merle, will improve your chances of getting a double merle with more pigment and much less chance of deafness/eye problems resulting from lack of pigment. The key is the pigment of the parents. My friend has a very light silver white-factored merle --it would be incredibly irresponsible for her to breed that dog to another merle, as her dog doesn't have very good pigment.

[Yatahae]

I know this is a little late, but if you want to read some on the Coolie genetics (which is the same for all other breeds) and see some pictures of some really pretty Coolies, go to my genetics website at: http://www.germancoolies.com/Coolie_Coat_Colors.html or here if you want to go straight to the "color" page: http://www.germancoolies.com/Colors.html

Thanks for looking, yatahae

[Sapphire-Light]

Is about border or rough / smooth collies?, anyway, Here's a breeding tablet that I have of the FCI official mexican magazine. :popcorn:

I hope this help.

Note that white collies aren't allow to the FCI standar.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/Sapphire-Light/colliecruse1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/Sapphire-Light/colliecruse2.jpg

[BostonBanker]

Thanks for looking, yatahae

I'm assuming you are the breeder, Yata Hae Coolies? If so, I have to say that your site is one of the ones I check almost daily! I want to drive down and steal "Nate" for my next agility dog;) .

Are you up for talking via PM or email? I'd love to get some more info on your dogs/breed.

[Yatahae]

Hi,
Thank you so very much for the compliment - I am the breeder. Absolutely, email anytime, I'd love to talk to you. yatahae_koolies@yahoo.com :)

[Yatahae]

:lol-sign: Nate would LOVE any opportunity to run full blast all the time. I can give you directions!!! And I'm serious. :)

[Yatahae]

Anyone that concerened in colouration in a herding breed is a little crazy. Most herding breeds are solid or bi, not merle. To be fiddling with such a colour to that extreme seems completely irresponsible.

Actually, this is not entirely accurate. The Australian Shepherd is a herding bred dog, and was used exclusively as a herding dog until it became the popular show dog. That breed is as much merle as it is bi's and tri's.

The same with the Border Collie. Chocolate, blue (dilute black) and merles are not rare, they can be found everywhere. Shelties --- lots of merles, as are the Corgi.

The Kelpie and ACD does not have the merle gene; nor does the German Shepherd Dog, Malinois, Terv, Belgium, etc....

[Yatahae]

Im not sure about other breeds (im guessing it would be the same) but I know in catahoula's if you breed a solid to an excessive white you would get all leopards (merle's)


The only way to produce the "Leopard" color, which is a merle - is if one parent IS a merle. Maybe the excessive white you are referring to is a homozygous/double merle. :)

[jess2416]

The only way to produce the "Leopard" color, which is a merle - is if one parent IS a merle. Maybe the excessive white you are referring to is a homozygous/double merle. :)

Yes I know that.....excessive white / double merle same thing

[Yatahae]

Yes I know that.....excessive white / double merle same thing


Weeeeell, not exactly. Excessive white really means a dog is white factored, as in - being either pie bald or an extreme pie bald color. Not trying to step on toes.

[jess2416]

Weeeeell, not exactly. Excessive white really means a dog is white factored, as in - being either pie bald or an extreme pie bald color. Not trying to step on toes.

ok.......

[Laurelin]

Actually, this is not entirely accurate. The Australian Shepherd is a herding bred dog, and was used exclusively as a herding dog until it became the popular show dog. That breed is as much merle as it is bi's and tri's.

The same with the Border Collie. Chocolate, blue (dilute black) and merles are not rare, they can be found everywhere. Shelties --- lots of merles, as are the Corgi.



Actually merle was intrduced into shelties with the collie crosses later on, not in the original dogs used solely for herding. Just fyi

But I guess the issue is just generally why do people in Coolies focus so much on ONE pattern. Shelties and other breeds mentioned have merles but most breeders stay away from doubles and no one claims them as a 100% merle breed like some breeders of Coolies seem to do. Why the reason to say falsely that non merles are unwanted throwbacks I suppose.

You explained it well in PM. You might post some of that here, many people would benefit from it I think.

[Yatahae]

Actually merle was intrduced into shelties with the collie crosses later on, not in the original dogs used solely for herding. Just fyi




Really? I never knew that. I like Shelties, but have never had one and have never deeply researched the breed. My friend, who is an avid Sheltie owner and shower, is probably laughing at me about now. :lol-sign:

[Laurelin]

Well, all the showing shelties and pretty much every sheltie nowadays is quite a bit collie actually. The originals didn't look much like the dogs of today. the collie was added to make the breed flashier and more like a miniature show collie. The original shelties (Toonies as they were known) weren't very standard at all and they basically picked their favorite type. There was a huge debate back then about which one was the true type. Basically your everday working v showing debate, but now shelties look a lot like collies. The size issues shelties have are due to collie genes too, though I think the merle came from a few later crosses, I'm not sure. They were notorious for crossing 'unregistered shelties' (aka collies) into the lines early on.

Yay off topic!

[Yatahae]

My question was basically just one of color. You see, I'm a gene major and i don't understand how you can possibly get merle pups all of the time without breeding double merles.
You're speaking of Toolalla Coolies - they (mainly Tabitha Parker) LIE and say they never produce double merles and never produce solids. I used to be on her dog forum and when another member asked me the very same question that you did --- I answered and it made Tabitha so mad because she was caught in a lie that she banned me from her forum and has spent the last year trying to discredit me and my dogs.

I'm inolved with shelties and know that double merles are usually highly frowned upon as many times they have semi-lethal effects.
Coolie breeders do practice breeding merle to merle (M/m to M/m). Most are of the understanding and through mis-information, that the Coolie breed is an entirely merle breed. Which is genetically not possible. Trying to explain that to those breeders was and still is like banging your head against a brick wall. Merle to merle breeding is accepted among that community -- and there are those that still wonder why in the world they produce puppies that are blind, deaf, or both.

I know that double merle x solid can create a 100% merle litter, but if you breed a merle x merle then you get a 50% merle, 25% double merle and 25% solid litter.
It doesn't work like that, in real life situations. Although every single breeding is different - usually Merle to merle produces mostly merles, if not all merles. Some produce 1 merle, the rest solid. Some produce mostly merles, 1 or 2 solids and 1 or 2 double merles. Toolalla kills all solids at birth. They usually kill the doubles, but not always. Most breeders do not kill the solids; and some breeders still have NO clue why they produce solids. I've tried to explain, but it goes smoothly over their head.

Is double merle not as much of a concern to Coolie breeders in general?
Toolalla doesn't care, as evidenced by their continual practice of only breeding merle to merle. It worries some of the other breeders, but they still breed merle to merle. I have to admit some of these breeders are the luckiest in the world at not producing double merles, with their continual practice of merle to merle breeding. Those ethical breeders do openly admit what they produce and make no excuses, they also take responsibility for what they produce (for the life of the dog). Toolalla/Tabitha Parker does not admit they produce doubles or solids.

And why in a working breed is color so important to the breeders?
Tabitha/Toolalla has said that every single puppy that they've ever produced (she said they've beed breeding since the late 40's early 50's) turns out to be a working/herding dog. Well, if that is so then they have genetic anomalies whose genetic makeup would benefit the entire herding world. :cool:

Some don't care what color the dog is, as long as he/she works. BUT, most Coolie breeders do try to produce the merles. It's all from mis-information. They were told, have been told and continue to be told that the Coolie is an entire merle breed. This is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. It's not genetically possible, but some won't listen, some don't care, and it's like banging my head. Toolalla is the leading force in saying the Coolie is an entirely merle breed and that solids are throw-backs (which she has never defined what exactly these "throw-backs are, or what breed). Which is NOT true, but Tabitha Parker will not listen, so it's no use --- they will continue to breed merle to merle and kill puppies.

To me color seems like the last thing a working dog breeder should be worrying about especially when dealing with a gene so dangerous as the merle gene.
Breeding self merle to self merle is better than breeding two merles that are irish spotted, pie bald or extreme pie bald. Some of the Coolie breeders are going to continue breeding merle to merle no matter what they are told. It's better to educate them as to what is safer, than to flame or argue with them. Of course, there are those breeders that won't listen no matter what.

I currently have several cryptic merles; I know they are cryptic, because they were merle at birth, and as they've gotten older their merling has faded (due to being sable in color). Two females that were imported from Australia were said to be a solid color, but when I bred them to a merle --- I knew INSTANTLY they were cryptic. I do not practice breeding merle to merle, because I do not like killing puppies. Accidental merle to merle breedings do happen and if anyone says they've never had an accidental breeding, is just not being honest. No matter how careful you are, if they aren't desexed, accidents can happen.

[Yatahae]

Well, all the showing shelties and pretty much every sheltie nowadays is quite a bit collie actually. The originals didn't look much like the dogs of today. the collie was added to make the breed flashier and more like a miniature show collie. The original shelties (Toonies as they were known) weren't very standard at all and they basically picked their favorite type. There was a huge debate back then about which one was the true type. Basically your everday working v showing debate, but now shelties look a lot like collies. The size issues shelties have are due to collie genes too, though I think the merle came from a few later crosses, I'm not sure. They were notorious for crossing 'unregistered shelties' (aka collies) into the lines early on.

Yay off topic!


Not really off topic ... :) The Australian Coolie breeders do not have a standard; and according to the Koolie Club of Australia, are not going to implement one anytime soon. So, the Coolies are very diverse in their appearance. The KCA also registers anything that is merle in color. Having said that, this is why many of the breeders of "German Coolies" are so put-off by the KCA, because their Coolies have long lines of lineage. The KCA are registering dogs from the pound > it's all in an effort to gain "numbers" to evenually be accepted into the ANKC. This has caused a definate split in the Coolie community. Eight people, with the KCA, decided to change the historical name from German Coolie to Australian Koolie. Which is fine, now, because of the split. So, whenever you see Australian Koolie (depending on who owns it) may NOT be the same breed as the historical German Coolie.

The German Coolie Club of America has adopted a standard and are striving for strict genetic stability both physically and mentally. At the top of the goal is the preservation of natural herding ability, intelligence, biddability and loyality. Everything that makes a "Coolie" a Coolie.