Puppy mill/Breeder???

[dixiecatahoula]

I saw the puppymill post......
what makes it a puppymill, and what makes it a reputable breeder???

I'm going to start breeding akc English bulldogs, out of love..This is not going to be anytime soon, wanted to research as much as possible.
Does anyone have pics or sites of bad examples of breeders setups, or good examples..???
Help and info would be appreciated! Missed the forum,havent been here in awhile.
Also, was wondering how many litters a year should a female have? This might sound silly, but will never know if dont ask! I'm lookin up info now on google also.
Kate

[Novel_Weims]

OK, hold on... Back up and slow down...

A puppy mill, and or back yard breeder and or irresponsible unethical breeder are all motivated by the same thing... money, and all lack the same thing, knowledge. That's it generally. There are specifics if you really need them.

If you want to raise dogs for any reason but to better the breed, then please don't. If you're not afraid of investing not only all your time to the dogs, but pretty much all your money as well, and your reward will be the dogs you bring into the world that your heart will ache over many times over, then you are just beginning to be anywhere near ready. You will have dogs die of old age and at birth. You will be responsible for them their entire lives, if in your care or not.

Also, AKC registers bulldogs. Not English, not Olde English, not American. They are just named Bulldogs.

You do realize that bulldogs have numerous health problems. You can easily lose dam and puppies at any time. You will become good friends with your vet. Your girls will have to have C sections in order to whelp, and so on and so forth.

There are a ton of sites out there about what makes a good breeder. Here are a few just to get you started:
http://members.tripod.com/antique_fcr/goodbreeder.html
http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html
http://www.iupui.edu/~ihls400/responsible_breeder.html

How many litters a year?? No, it's more like how many in a lifetime. Two, maybe three in a lifetime is acceptable. NEVER more than one a year.

[bigdoglover]

I have to agree....as a breeder of Giant Schnauzers, I have been through the ups and downs. I breed once per year, but the time and money invested is tremendous. During the heat cycle, the actual breeding, the pregnancy, the whelp, and the raising of the pups....that is close to 6 months of time. Now count in vet visits ($$$) and your time is wrapped up. Like Novel said, you become best friends with your vet.

Now lets count the time I spend training and showing....my dogs are Schutzhund trained, and the time and cost to keep that going is also tremendous.

Something to think about really hard.

[shea4]

I think before you start breeding you need to really think about it long and hard A good breeder is not in it for the money because in reality there is not really alot of money in breeding. Think about having to send your 8,10,or 13 week pup off to someone you really don't know it is hard . a good breeder is always prepared to take back one of their babies at any time in life know matter the situatin and sometimes even when you have to make the room for the baby to come back home . Puppy mill Breeders usally don't know much about the BREEDS they are breeding and have no clue of the genetic health of the dog and usally they have multi. different breeds and don't have a heart for anyone of them . I think you can breed a female once a year and be okay but these puppy mills breed them everytime they come into season,and sometimes even on their heat right after they have their puppies. Getting to the point is that most puppy mills don't care were they place their pups and some even sell whole litters to pet stores just to get the money as soon as they can . A good breeder wants to know were they are going and wants to keep track of them.Most good breeders will require a spay / neuter contract or at the very least limited registration.You really need to think about why you want to breed your dog is it because you love the breed and want to better or is it for some other reason? I would really think of all the time and money you have to put in a litter before you do it and make sure that you are willing to stay up for hours and sometimes days to take care of pups and the reward is not the money you sell them for but the satisfaction that your pups are wonderful they all have wonderful families and althrough you will be glad it is over by this time you heart still sinks when you see them leave.And you need to try and educate all of your new owners on the care of the dog .part of the responsability is to educate puppy buyers on the care of new puppies and health and care of their new baby . You can't just send someone out the door and hope they know everything they need to know .

[RedyreRottweilers]

Good breeders have several things in common which millers, high risk and irresponsble breeders do not.

Good breeders compete with their dogs.
Good breeders do ALL health testing on ALL of their breeding stock.
Good breeders have studied their breed, and their breed standard, and know it inside out backwards and forwards.
Good breeders sell with a sales contract and a guarantee.
Good breeders require spay/neuter of all pet puppies.
Good breeders are involved in rescue in some way.
Good breeders have the best interests of their BREED first in line, before any personal goals with their dogs.

If you want heartbreak, try to breed Bulldogs. They are one of the hardest breeds there is. There is a lot of death. Breeding is always AI, and birthing is always C section.

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Not to be rude, and not to be mean but you are a back yard breeder. I saw your site
"Buckshot- Blue leopard cat/ Plott hound mix going to be breed Daisy Duke, registered Catahoula Cur. Daisy has blue leopard spots, and red leopard spots, with a big red spot under her tail, and double glass eyes. Puppies should be beautiful. Price of puppies will be $150. $50 to have your pick of the litter. These are going to be big dogs, and are good for watchdogs, cow dogs, hog dogs, or hunting dogs."

Why do these 2 dogs deserve to be bred? What do they offer to the improvement of the breed? We have catahoulas ALL of the time at our KILL shelter, and guess what yes they do get euthanized because catahoulas although uncommon in some parts, are extremly hyper dogs who dont do well in the shelter enviroment (not that any of the dogs do well but you get what I am saying..).

Why not foster for a Catahoula or English Bulldog rescue instead?

As for English bulldogs, I have heard it costs tons & tons of money to breed them. I have heard you cant breed them naturally, they must be bred by AI. (Which I am guessing is not too cheap). They always have to have C-sections (or the mom & babies will die because English Bulldogs overheat easily). That is why they are so rare & so expensive. To breed them costs a WHOLE lot of $. Not to mention their hereditary issues.

If you plan on breeding, you must also be willing to get health tests done on your dog, which are also expensive. You also need to get him/her their AKC championship before you breed. To be a good, well respected breeder, it will cost you money not make you any. But you could also feel good in the knowlege that you werent contributing to the poorly bred shelter dog population. Our shelter gets TONS of poorly bred dogs in. We even had an English Bulldog a couple of months ago...

Another thing a good breeder does is makes buyers sign a spay/neuter contract or has the dogs spayed/neutered before they leave.

I would honestly just suggest that you talk to a good breeder and get pointers from them. http://www.hurricanebulldogs.builderspot.com/page/page/293826.htm These people look fairly responsible. Or contact your local English Bulldog club & ask for rseponsible breeders in your area.

As for the other side, THIS is a puppy mill, they are breeding numerous breeds, they dont seem to care about the standard, or the animals' well being (even though they all say they do online). These dogs live sad, sad lives and are treated soley as money making machines. They are only touched when they are to be thrown in a cage and bred. http://www.brendaspuppies.com/index.html

Another: http://www.puppypetite.com/yorkies.html

A backyard breeder is different, yet the same. They usually only breed 1 breed, they breed their "pet" to another persons "pet" because "my dog is just so sweet, her puppies would be great dogs" or "I just want to breed her once before she gets spayed" or "my family LOVES my dog & wants one just like her" but they also care little about the health of the animal, and never test for any genetic problems. and it ends in heartache (at least it has twice for me) for the "buyer". You HAVE to get your dogs health tested & they need to prove themselves in the show ring before you breed. otherwise you are just contributing to the poorly bred dog problem here.

If you love your dogs, get them fixed!! I could never imagine ANY of my animals having puppies or kittens, because they are pets and pets dont need to go through that. If you really love your breed but are unwilling to spend the $ it takes on doing it responsibly, my best advice would be to hook up with a rescue who rescues that breed. It's a great opportunity to help save the lives of the breed you love!!

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Here's the best info I have found to tell a BYB vs a Responsible breeder:
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html


This is what puppy mills are about: http://www.stoppuppymills.org/

And as it says, EVERYONE will deny they are a puppy mill. And EVERY pet store will deny that they buy from puppy mills, but both are lies. Pet Stores always buy from puppy mills.

[dixiecatahoula]

I havent bred any dogs yet. All of my dogs come inside at night and all are loved.I'm not trying to rush into anything, that is why I posted this topic..to learn from people who are more experienced than me. As I've learned, I have never "seen" a good breeder. I havent heard about the spay/nueter until now. So there are still alot of things I have to learn. The site is outdated(mine) and the catahoulas havent been bred. They are registered. I do have dogs that are nuetered/spayed that I've got from shelters.They all have wonderful personalities. I have a few contacts that breed englsih bulls, and I will be sure to ask them question after question until I bug them to death :)
How do I get involved at a shelter? See, I have never heard of that until now.
As for the vet, he's like family. My dogs are all checked regularly, and I pretty much see the vet every week. My bulls dad is Bama Roll Tyde Clyde, which I will be sure to ask the odoms questions about breeding and health issues...
thanks for all information, and more is appreciated!
Sorry to be a pain in the butt
Kate

[adoptashelterpettoday]

The best way IMO to get involved is to go to your local shelter and start volunteering. If you just want to foster, contact your local rescue groups. You can find them at www.petfinder.com . At the top there will be somethign that says "shelters & rescue groups". Click on that, and then click on your state. It pulls rescues by cities & I would just email those around you. Tell them you want to foster or ask what you can do to help. A fair warning, some rescues are friendlier than others.

If you want to do breed specific here are a couple rescues (best idea is to google those)

HEre is the general Catahoula rescue: http://www.catahoularescue.com/

Another one: http://www.catahoulaunited.com/

English bulldog rescue: http://engbulldogs.com/english_bulldog_rescue.htm

I think it's great you want to get involved! We have a Catahoula at our shelter right now (we usually do :( )

I know a couple people who do both rescue & responsible breeding!

To be honest, if you want to foster and cant find anyone around you, I can send you an application and if you get approved then you could foster for us. I always try to encourage people to foster/pull locally though...

[adoptashelterpettoday]

BTW-You are NOT a pain at all. I (as I am sure everyone on the forum) appreciate when people ask these questions before doing something. Very wise & very responsible.

[dixiecatahoula]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been on here most of the day reading the responses and reading the links everyone shared. Much appreciated!
I also was updating my site..not the best..but its a start....mayb esomeone could look at it and see if its more appropriate now..??
Thanks to everyone,am very grateful!
Kate

[stevinski]

i thought u bred your jack russel a while back and had lab pups?

and jst for da future, offering a white schnauzer for stud when white schnauzers arent allowed would automatically put you in the BYB pile

[dixiecatahoula]

The jack russel was thought to be pregnant, but turned out not to be. it wasnt ours then. we got it from a neighbor who moved. The black lab pups werent mine either. I took them off the hands of a friend whos female accidently got bred..
and what do u mean about the white schnauzers....?

[stevinski]

a while ago you had a white schnauzer for stud

[dixiecatahoula]

yeah I did have him listed on the site...but white schnauzers arent allowed..?

[~Tucker&Me~]

First of all...

PROPS to you for ASKING.

Both Daisy Duke and Buckshot are very good looking dogs, but you have to ask yourself this.

"What will they do to improve their breed?"

Have they won countless awards for conformation or in a sport? Why do they deserve to be bred?

IF they have, then have you fully health tested them (Not just vet visits!)? That means OFA/CERF and the like.

If not, then WHY breed them?

There are COUNTLESS dogs in shelters that make WONDERFUL pets and watch dogs.

~Tucker

[stevinski]

taken from the akc site

Disqualifications
Color solid white or white striping, patching, or spotting on the colored areas of the dog, except for the small white spot permitted on the chest of the black.

[Angel Chicken]

Buckshot- Blue leopard cat/ Plott hound mix going to be breed Daisy Duke, registered Catahoula Cur. Daisy has blue leopard spots, and red leopard spots, with a big red spot under her tail, and double glass eyes. Puppies should be beautiful. Price of puppies will be $150. $50 to have your pick of the litter. These are going to be big dogs, and are good for watchdogs, cow dogs, hog dogs, or hunting dogs.

First of all, please PLEASE don't breed mutts.... there is no sense in it at all. If I wanted a mutt I would much rather go to a shelter to get them than pay 150 bucks for them, and alot of people are like that!

I rarely put my input on things like this, to stay out of the drama but since you have yet to become a breeder, I will say a few things.

To me, a good breeder is one who takes time (and not just days, I am talking real time) getting to know their breed. Going to shows, reading on the internet, contacting other reputable breeders for decent information, learning what to do to give the breed a proper life, working the breed, things of that sort. It is time consuming, but once you have every area of info covered, you can start on reading about being a reputable breeder and what you need to do to become one. It will help you out in the long run too!!

I plan on being a Jack Russell Terrier breeder one day. I could do it now if I felt comfortable with it, but with my Kona and these rowdy kids, it ain't gonna happen real soon. I say this because I have spent a long time just doing research on them, have even contacted a few breeders to show with.

It takes years of dedication, love, and money to be a good breeder!

Good Luck to you!

[bubbatd]

I'd reconsider ...... especially when you ask " how many litters a year should she have ". Please get the book " How To Raise A Puppy You Can Live With " ...Rutherford and Neil .

[FoxyWench]

first off, thank you for asking.
that being said, firstly of everything i would seriously reconsider bulldogs. theres a reason the average price for a good "english" bulldog is so high. ive YET to meet a good bulldog breeder that didnt preschedual a c-section and have never met an english bully thats had a natural birth, c-section is a give and expect it to cost anythign from
$1500 to $3000.
then you have the cost of puppy shots, tail dock, dewlcaws, multiple checkups.
if you are making ANY money when breeding any breed your cutting corneres somewhere, ESPECIALLY with english bullies who are notorious for health poblems .

that being said, to realy answer your questions as such. on breeding ANY dog.

a female should be bred no more than everyother heat (once a year), with a breed like the english bullies id say no more than every 4th heat (every other year) and that is the max, preferably youd wait longer, the longer the dam has to rest between litter the better it is for her and the pups. At no older than 6 yrs she should then be retired, spayed and give the rest of her life living in your home and heart as a pet and frined!

Puppies should live with you will at least 8 weeks, during that time you going to have to feed the, start socilization, traing, housebreaking, and spend a fortune feeding them because they need HIGH QUALITY puppyfood (nothing you can buy from the grocery store ect) and finding homes for those puppies tends not to be as easy as it seems, ANYONE can advetises such and such a puppy for $50 to "good home" but a real breeder doesnt just trust that the person is a good home, instead they spend time doing refernce checks, home checks, meetings.

There should be a spay/neuter contract AND a clause somewhere in there that in any situation the person cannot keep the dog it comes back to you.
as breeders were essentially "playing god", we are creating life and are responsibel for that life untill it is over.
when my chis whent to their homes it was 100% undersood that in any situation it wasnt working puppy comes back to me, i am 100% responsible for that puppy even after its left home. you have to be willing to deal with phonecalls at midnight from a worried puppy owner when their pup wont stop crying, and be there to answer questins throught the dogs life...

but were jumping ahead.
before your ready to breed you have to know about your breed of choice. Make yourself VERy familiar with your chosen breeds AKC standard, join the breed club related to that breed, and learn about its personality, size, pros cons, temperment, attitude, training, handling...you want to be able to answer ANY question about your chosen breed with confidence that your not steering anyone wrong, because when you start breeding youll have to answer all the questions your buyers can throw at you...
once you feel you know your breed, find a SHOW breeder, someone how competes with their dogs and see if they would let you aprentice under them, see if theyll teach you to handle the dog in the ring, with the help os an experienced breeder youll learn about the genetics behind breeding, reaserching family lines and what to look for in a good dog. often theyll let you handle their dogs and even assist in whelping. id suggest doing that for at least 4 litters (or 2 yrs) before even thinkign of branching on your own.

another thing to keep in mind, most good breeders specialize in 1 breed, they often will have a very small number of breeding dogs, 2 males and 4 females or so, some even less.

hope this helps some!

[wookie130]

Bless you for asking questions, rather than simply jumping into such a hefty endeavor. There are so many things to research, and be prepared to spend far more money in this process than you'll probably ever earn being a breeder...proving once again that a reputable breeder is acting out of love for the breed, rather the love of $$$...it is COSTLY. Be prepared to do any and all of the following:

*Travel to shows...lots of them.
*Contact breeders...you will need a mentor for at least 2-3 years, in order to learn all that you need to learn from someone with vast experience in the breed, and with all of the in's & out's. And I don't recommend just contacting any old breeder off of the web...you have to sort the good from bad, and maintain a lot of contact with your mentor.
*You need to witness several matings, whelpings, and veterinary check-ups...be prepared to follow your mentor to health screenings, etc., so that you will know in explicit and automatic detail what you need to be screening for.
*Be prepared to know all of the supplies and materials needed for safe mating and whelping...this is a long list, and mandatory!
*You need to participate, and ASSIST in the mating and whelping of several litters from your chosen breed before even considering doing this yourself. You must be well-educated about the complications that can arise. You must have some canine CPR techniques down pat, and be prepared to administer medications and emergency treatments yourself, in the event your vet can't arrive immediately on the spot.
*You must appreciate and absolutely become an EXPERT on your breed, and the standards that come with it. Producing litters that are anything but to the standard is unacceptable...in fact, you want to reach above and beyond that level.
*Be prepared to research and pay top dollar for your initial breeding stock...most reputable breeders search high and low for show dogs with long-standing champion pedigrees, and will travel far and wide to find them...and be willing to pay a price!
*Know exactly what physical and health characteristics you are striving to produce...with bulldogs, this will not be easy.

Anyway, there are a lot of other things I didn't mention...but as you can see, it's a serious challenge, and requires a TON of hard work, money, and dedication to the breed.

[Cassiepeia]

Just wanted to point out that BYBs don't always breed primarily for profit. Often you'll find they're people who love their dogs and just have no knowledge of the 'dog world' at all. They just think "My dog is friendly and cute and everyone loves her/him so I'll breed them and everyone will want a pup...the world needs more 'pets' not show dogs".
It's ignorance and selfishness not profit in those cases. These people often trap buyers who think they're doing a good thing by avoiding the money driven backyarders and puppymills...but of course they end up getting the same badly bred pup from the same people they're really trying to avoid.

And I agree....British Bulldogs aren't a great breed to jump in and start breeding. I'd suggest finding a Bulldog breeder to be your mentor and helping them for a few years before even thinking of breeding.

Cass.

[bubbatd]

This is where I started . I had Goldens with wonderful championship background . We showed , but not seriously . My mentor showed one of my pups ( his off spring ) and suggested I breed .... we wanted another pup , he wanted one and so did 5 others . Thus , my first litter .

[tinies12]

I do not know much about breeding at all, but this I do know. You never breed white factored Dob's and or white shepherds to black and tan shepherds.

A friend of mine told me that years and years ago! Just can't understand why people have to breed dogs to get ahead in the game! I am lost for words. MPO!

[planet molosser]

Great posts..

We have allot of backyard breeders in rare molossers.
They do not xray , work, tempermanet test or do min showing on puppies.
They do not require spay or neuter or any form of quality control.

But I must add some are NOT in it for the money.
Some are in it for the EGO in rare breeds some of these people have NEVER been the center of attention.
So they buy a cute rare breed dog, so many people come up to them and go wowowowowowow nice dog, You Must breed him or her, and then you have it a ego boost via rare breeds.

Then the rare backyard breeder FOOL the public into thinking they do NOT need to be WORKED or SHOWN or TESTED why? because they are RARE or so RARE.

Then the suckers just LINE up cha ching money then EGO boost.

Sad so sad

[showpug]

How to NOT become a BYB or Miller:

1.) Show your dogs to their conformation championship or put a working title on them or even better, do both! BEFORE YOU BREED THEM!!!

2.) Health screen all breeding stock for their breed specific diseases. CERF and OFA testing are some of the main tests done across the board by responsible breeders.

3.) Find a breed mentor who has been involved in the sport and breeding of purebred dogs for a long time that can help you with the whole process.

4.) Memorize your standard and then read it some more!

5.) Learn what is weak in your bitch and then seek out the most complimenting male for her. This is usually NOT a dog you own!

6.) Plan on spending $1000-$3000 to have your bitch bred (stud fee, semen shipping, insemination etc.) and since we are talking bulldogs, set another $1500 aside for a c-section! I hope you have a reproductive specialist in your area because you WILL need one.

7.) Only breed a litter when you are ready for your next dog that you are going to compete with. Never breed just to sell the puppies.

If you don't do all of the above then IMO you are a BYB or Miller! Breeding because you love your dogs is not enough of a reason to breed. We all love our dogs. Many dogs die from having puppies and many puppies die too. Most people who love their dogs are scared to death and want no part of breeding them.

Good for you for asking though! :)

[planet molosser]

Show pug great post i love #7 my favorite that is one reason of many I do not breed often I need to show work test each dog and cant breed more than I can handle when im ready to hit the road with a new dog both time and money I think of.
My new female FoxFIre ICE ICE Baby is a ice storm pup just 5 days old and iM counting the days till she can compete....