Yabbadabbadisgusting

[chinchow]

http://www.yabbadabbadoodles.net/

CAIRNOODLES?! UGH. Toto should NOT be used in such a manner.:mad:

And even worse if you can believe it...
http://www.tenderlovingpuppies.com/


This is getting so out of hand! Just puppymills and byb's turning into mills is all I'm ever seeing anymore.

[~Jessie~]

Ugh :(

On the second website, the chihuahuas are severly out of breed standards, and ridiculously overpriced =/ It makes me so sick.

[wehkah]

OMG the crem de la crem!! There is actually a club for "hybrids".

http://www.achclub.com/

I can't believe it!! What are they trying to pull??? They even have a registration for litters! :yikes:

What is the world coming to! Their MIXES for crying out loud! Go to your local shelter and adopt instead!!! Why add to the unwanted dogs of the world by fooling people that this "designer dog" is a breed! It will never be considered a breed and always a mix for obvious reasons.

Don't even get me started on the yabadabadoodles website and their health guarantee and their temperment assuance! UGH!! Sickening!

[chinchow]

The "canine Hybrid Club" is such a joke. They have "breeds" up there I've never even seen advertised, yet anyway. I bet they got together and created some of those on their own.

[wehkah]

Wouldn't throw it past them chinchow! Soon we'll be seeing 3X mix designer dogs! Just wait! When will the insanity end!:mad:

[Cassiepeia]

When will the insanity end!
When celebrities grow some brains and a heart and start campaigning against this ridiculous fashion trend. Until then, we're fighting a losing battle. :( No one seems to care what the little (educated) people think.

Cass.

[krisykris]

I think that all puppies are cute regardless but i feel so bad for them..

Why would anyone mix a Cairn with a poodle anyhow?

[FoxyWench]

i love the fact they call them "hybrids" despite the fact that ther NOT...a wolf dog is a hybrid a liger is a hybrid a puggle is a mutt....

*shoots random puppymillers*

[TLPups]

i really dont understand why my website was posted here, and I dont see the issue with what I am doing that is so wrong. Every dog has a mix in its history... there is no such thing as a pure bred, in fact each dog was mixed at one time in its life to define that breed, so why am i so bad for mixing 2 dogs to make a diffeent breed of my own? heck for that fact AKC now over the past 15-20 years sees the cockerpoo as a "pure bred" and thats AKC! ummm correct me if im wong, isnt that a mix too? over the past 10 year the so called pure bred breeder has done a lot of damage to the so called pure bred, you see a lot of health issues because of the in line breeding... with people like us who are choosing to mix these breeds have a better chance of not hitting that bad gene pool that pure breds now have. i feel that the attack on me and my good name was uncalled for, as a person and fellow breeder i have done nothing wrong BUT help correct what the so called pure bred breeder messed up. please dont miss read what i am saying, not all breeders had a hand in it, but i do know a lot that do....and still do to this day. i love my babies, as i am sure you do too. and yet you dont see me attacking you for the things that you do and it doesnt matter if i agree with them or not. I feel there is space for all of us, and what i like, you might not... and that is OK, but to lower yourself and trash the person you dont agree with really says much more about you then you just not agreeing with a mix breeder and what he/she does with their own pets. life is far to short to stoop to such levels. so please concider stoping the abuse and lets try to get along, you never know what good friends you might make if you would just try to understand and learn from each other.

thank you & god bless,
tenderlovingpuppies.com

[Laurelin]

i really dont understand why my website was posted here, and I dont see the issue with what I am doing that is so wrong. Every dog has a mix in its history... there is no such thing as a pure bred, in fact each dog was mixed at one time in its life to define that breed, so why am i so bad for mixing 2 dogs to make a diffeent breed of my own? heck for that fact AKC now over the past 15-20 years sees the cockerpoo as a "pure bred" and thats AKC! ummm correct me if im wong, isnt that a mix too? over the past 10 year the so called pure bred breeder has done a lot of damage to the so called pure bred, you see a lot of health issues because of the in line breeding... with people like us who are choosing to mix these breeds have a better chance of not hitting that bad gene pool that pure breds now have. i feel that the attack on me and my good name was uncalled for, as a person and fellow breeder i have done nothing wrong BUT help correct what the so called pure bred breeder messed up. please dont miss read what i am saying, not all breeders had a hand in it, but i do know a lot that do....and still do to this day. i love my babies, as i am sure you do too. and yet you dont see me attacking you for the things that you do and it doesnt matter if i agree with them or not. I feel there is space for all of us, and what i like, you might not... and that is OK, but to lower yourself and trash the person you dont agree with really says much more about you then you just not agreeing with a mix breeder and what he/she does with their own pets. life is far to short to stoop to such levels. so please concider stoping the abuse and lets try to get along, you never know what good friends you might make if you would just try to understand and learn from each other.

thank you & god bless,
tenderlovingpuppies.com

I have nothing against cross breeders per say, it's the way they're being crossed and sold for money that I can't stand. If it was done responsibly and actually out of desire to improve quality, I might be okay with it. I can't stand pure bred breeders that breed willy nilly either. I haven't had time to look at your site or really follow this thread, but I have one question. How do you know you are improving the health of your dogs by breeding crosses? Are you preforming any genetic testing of the sire and dam before breeding to screen for defects/illnesses that they might have or carry? Dog genetics is a lot more than so called 'hybrid vigor' and I hope you realize it.

[jupiter11600]

with people like us who are choosing to mix these breeds have a better chance of not hitting that bad gene pool that pure breds now have.

"People Like us" must be the kind that decided that hybrid vigor was a good thing when they decided my dog's parents would make cute puppies. I get comments every time we are out with sierra about how cute we are... I wish the people that decided to breed her parents had to spend just a few nights of horrid IBD flares, Or a few days of carrying her up and down 3 flights of stairs because her eyes are now going bad and she trips, falls and hurts her leg, Or what about some time with her trying to brush, or even touch her when she's having a bad day with her dementia and trys to bite you... Or another good one, How about watching your dog have grand maul seizures and then trying to calm the dog for hours after because they are so upset...

I'd like at least a partial refund on my hybrid vigor please as these two don't have it...

Roshelle




(Note: I did not "Buy" these as puppies, But adopted them as senior dogs that were "Unwanted" and I wouldn't trade them for a thing)

[skyeboxer]

Good grief!

That club that Wehteh is talking about even states that the first one to contact them with a novel new mix gets to name it. Like it's a race. I have come across some horrendous sites in my plodding about for desidogs but choose not to give those millers even one more link to their websites.

There is no innocent till proven guilty in this racket. If the DD breeders have a health and temperament testing regime then they are welcome to crow about it on their homepages. If not... sorry, you are a BYB and you are milking this sick trend for all you can get.

And who is paying? The families that pay with their cash and quite possibly their tears and the dogs who are left to rot in shelters. they pay with their lives.

With 4 million cats and dogs euthanised every year in the US alone, how can anyone justify adding yet more mutts to the mix?

[adoptashelterpettoday]

i really dont understand why my website was posted here, and I dont see the issue with what I am doing that is so wrong. Every dog has a mix in its history... there is no such thing as a pure bred, in fact each dog was mixed at one time in its life to define that breed, so why am i so bad for mixing 2 dogs to make a diffeent breed of my own? heck for that fact AKC now over the past 15-20 years sees the cockerpoo as a "pure bred" and thats AKC! ummm correct me if im wong, isnt that a mix too? over the past 10 year the so called pure bred breeder has done a lot of damage to the so called pure bred, you see a lot of health issues because of the in line breeding... with people like us who are choosing to mix these breeds have a better chance of not hitting that bad gene pool that pure breds now have. i feel that the attack on me and my good name was uncalled for, as a person and fellow breeder i have done nothing wrong BUT help correct what the so called pure bred breeder messed up. please dont miss read what i am saying, not all breeders had a hand in it, but i do know a lot that do....and still do to this day. i love my babies, as i am sure you do too. and yet you dont see me attacking you for the things that you do and it doesnt matter if i agree with them or not. I feel there is space for all of us, and what i like, you might not... and that is OK, but to lower yourself and trash the person you dont agree with really says much more about you then you just not agreeing with a mix breeder and what he/she does with their own pets. life is far to short to stoop to such levels. so please concider stoping the abuse and lets try to get along, you never know what good friends you might make if you would just try to understand and learn from each other.

thank you & god bless,
tenderlovingpuppies.com

So can you show us the standard for EVERY mixed breed you are breeding? Because the only breeders who I think are worth a darn are the ones who breed to IMPROVE the breed of dogs and with 6 breeds that is impossible.

I would be more than happy to look at the standard you (and your designer breed friends) set for your poodle, rat terrier and pomerian mixes.

Why dont you look at petfinder.com and see all the cute mixes who are going to be euthanized because no one wants them.

Your statement about "not hitting the bad gene pool" is ridiculous. Do you health test your dogs? I didnt see anything about it on your site.

and FYI-every puppy miller says they care about their dogs. You breed 6 breeds of dogs, I would be shocked if you wernt a puppy mill.

My problem is you are trying to make money, you care nothing about improving the breed.

And just so you know, I too, dont like people who breed pure breed dogs irresponsibly either.

Also, if you care about your dogs, why do you send them off to anyone who wants one? Do you screen AT ALL??? It looks like you can pay with a credit card or pay pal directly to your site. I sure know if I cared about my dogs & their offspring I would want good homes only. Heck, I rescue dogs and I am very picky about their placements, we have a 5 page long application, we do a home visit, we ask for a vet reference and personal references. And these are for dogs that were going to be put to sleep. Seems like if you raised the dogs in your home you would be a little more picky.

You are doing nothing but adding a LOT of dogs to the unwanted dogs in shelters.

My biggest question is how many dogs do you have? You look like a puppy mill to me. .

Crazy how puppy mills wont admit they are puppy mills, means they know what they are doing is wrong.

Please consider getting out of breeding mixed breed dogs. Us rescuers are getting really tired of cleaning up your messes & saving your dogs from death because you wont take them back and are irresponsible about placing them into nice homes.

[shea4]

UHH this may be a crazy question but I didn't know you could register mutts can anyone explain to me how you register a yorkie-pom is it really a breed that CKC has a breed standard for I have never delt with CKC but I tried looking it up and didn't see anything about it. also looked at AKC and didn't get anything there either so could someone explain or did I miss something.

[Laurelin]

Okay, fully responding. I had to rush to my Micro lab and then my genetics class, but am now back. :)

Every dog has a mix in its history... there is no such thing as a pure bred, in fact each dog was mixed at one time in its life to define that breed, so why am i so bad for mixing 2 dogs to make a diffeent breed of my own?

A, your crosses are not breeds. A breed is a population with fairly consistent genetic traits that will breed true. A poodle x yorkie mating will breed crosses that look like either a poodle, a yorkie, or a mixture of both to any possible varying degree. A poodle x poodle cross will produce puppies that are for sure going to be poodles. Sure, within a breed there is variation, but not nearly to the extent of a cross. If you were indeed setting out to create a breed of your own as you say you are, then you'd have a standard and an ideal dog to breed towards taking all aspects into consideration.

heck for that fact AKC now over the past 15-20 years sees the cockerpoo as a "pure bred" and thats AKC! ummm correct me if im wong, isnt that a mix too?

B, the AKC does NOT see the cockapoo as a breed. It is not recognized. Many breeders of cockapoos are trying to get the AKC to recognize it as a breed, earliest being in 15 years or so. There is a huge difference between cockapoos and designers, though. Cockapoos are an older cross. There is a breed club with a set standard that does not allow any new cocker/poodle crosses to be registered. All cockapoos that are registered must be a second generation or more from already registered and health tested parents. (and this is the group of responsible cross breeders aiming for AKC recognition) They are not breeding dogs for the money, they are truly breeding to create a new breed. They have multiple generation crosses unlike most designers and the do genetic testing. Sure, there are mills and BYB that breed cockapoos too, and I do not condone their breeding practices any more than I do a designer. However, it is highly unfair to compare these people to the responsible cockapoo breeders, so I don't. I have yet to see any other of the doodle or other designer mix breeders that have the same dedication and sense of responsibilty for their breeding as these cockapoo breeders.

over the past 10 year the so called pure bred breeder has done a lot of damage to the so called pure bred, you see a lot of health issues because of the in line breeding... with people like us who are choosing to mix these breeds have a better chance of not hitting that bad gene pool that pure breds now have.

C, the 'so called' pure bred is a little childish. They are purebreds, and your dogs are not, they're mixed. Yes, you do see a lot of problems in purebred breeding pools, but once again responsible breeders are working to fix this by doing genetic testing, and perhaps if needed outcrossing to a similar breed. Your dog breeding practices do nothing to help stop the genetic issues foudn in purebreds. Outcrossing to similar breeds (sorry, but poodles and cairns aren't similar) and breeding back toward the standard can help eliminate genetic problems, but only if both pedigrees are thoroughly researched. It can be beneficial, especially in breeds with small gene pools, however, with outcrossing you also run the risk of introducing a new genetic disease into your lines that was not there before. It can be just as dangerous as line breeding or inbreeding can be in bad hands. I'm afraid dog genetics is far too complicated to fall back on the hybrid vigor arguement. There's too many variables to generalize this statement. And if you have two breeds with similar issues, such as HD, you won't be reducing the risk of the pup to get HD by crossing them. I had a dog that was a gsd x godlen, both breeds with HD, and he had it. He was put down because of it eventually. It didn't matter that he was a cross, he had a horrible case of HD and it cost him his life. Besides that, many issues found in purebreds have been amplified by mills churning out dogs without any concern as to their health. It pains me to see my breed being churned out and cross bred all over. People exploit them because they are a small breed, which sells now. They are not the breed for most people though, and with all these mills breeding them our cases of luxating patellas and progressive retinal atrophy are increasing. Without screening your dogs, you are not helping these problems go away. You keep setting the breeders of any breed or dog that do these tests in the hopes to eliminate these problems back, yet you say you are 'fixing the problems of pure bred dogs'? It's actually quite laughable.

You need to get it into your mind that it's not about you. You are responsible for what you create. It has nothing to do with crossbreeding, it has to do with ethics. You know what you're doing and you have to know that it is wrong. Hopefully you'll at least think on some of the things people have said.

Oh, I forgot, the Continental Kennel Club and American Hybrid Breed Club are not what I or most dog people would call legitimate registries.

[chinchow]

I'll tell you the first reason your site was posted.

Because you directly refer to your dogs as "designers". You KNOW that people will pay more for them if they don't know better, and you don't see them as anything more than a handbag. They aren't dogs in your eyes, and that's easily seen by what you call them. A DESIGNER dog. A designer dog sits on my mantle and is made of stone. A sculptor, designer, made it.
These are live animals being treated as stock, income, merchandise, not what they really are....live animals, with a heart, blood, they FEEL and show emotions, they know when they are being hurt but they still know how to love afterwards...which in many cases is lucky, because if I were those dogs, you would be a very unhappy person, as with the rest of your kind and beyond, getting vengeance taken out every day. ;)

[Angel Chicken]

Males, on the other hand, are usually more affectionate, exuberant, attentive, and more demanding of attention. They are very attached to their people. They also tend to be more steadfast, reliable, and less moody. They are more outgoing, more accepting of other pets, and take quicker to children. Most boys are easily motivated by food (how true!!) and praise, and so eager to please that training is easy. However, males can be more easily distracted during training, as males like to play so often. And no matter what age, he is more likely to act silly and more puppy-like, always wanting to play games. Boys are fun loving until the day they die. Females tend to be more reserved or dignified as they age. Witness the human equivalent of the twinkling eyed Grandpa still playing catch at age 70, while Grandma quietly observes from the porch.

Idiot :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TLPups]

As a matter of fact i do testing. and as for my prices if i were to sell my dogs for very little money OR give them away, my puppy just might end up at a puppy mill being abused or worse. My prices ensure (close to it) that they will be taken care of for years to come, and to a great family that will love them as much as i do. I have been breeding for a great number of years, and i like you felt that mix breed dogs were just the mutt on the side of the road, and when i as a pure bred breeder had an accedent with a cross i gave them away to people who i thought would at least love them... turns out my puppies went to puppy mills and back yard beeders and i was heart broken. over the years i have gotten away from most pure breeds because of health issues in the breeds. thats when i decided to start my mixes, and it was the best thing i have ever done for not only me, but my babies. as for all the different mixes out there, hey its like i have always said... no one downs the huge store everyone goes to to buy items that some find upstting... the reason stores carry this stuff is because there is a demand for it... well there is a demand for the mixes too. and as long as im not hurting anyone or my animals, what gives? pure bred breeders cant stand the thought of breeders like us mixing breeds... on the other hand we mix beeders cant stand that pure bred breeders are letting mother - son, brother- sister, aunts and uncles breed together, and i cant help but wonder why there are so many health issues in these breeds... why dont they have a baby with their brother or sister and see how that baby turns out! what a gross thought huh? well they do it to our poor dogs and think thats ok... not for me, ill stick to my little corner of the world and breed my mixes, not hurting anyone nor bothering anyone, others want to be mad at me thats their problem... but before you go slamming on someone else because they mix... at least give them a chance to stand up for what they feel too

God Bless,
tenderlovingpuppies.com

[Laurelin]

What tests do you run? And if you do run tests, it is best to have the test results available on your site.

A badly bred mix and a badly bred purebred will both be likely to have health problems. Like I've said, I don't buy into the 'mixes are overall healthier'. It depends on the dog and the lines. You are lumping all purebred breeders into one group. Many do not inbreed like you describe. Many do linebreed, but some do not even do that. And honestly, what makes you think that crossing an inbred purebred to another inbred purebred of a different breed is going to solve all that much?

[shea4]

[QUOTE=TLPups;587370][B]hey its like i have always said... no one downs the huge store everyone goes to to buy items that some find upstting... the reason stores carry this stuff is because there is a demand for it... well there is a demand for the mixes too. and as long as im not hurting anyone or my animals, what gives?


You wrote exactly what most of us are saying they are like inventory. To most not all pure bred breeders its not about money its about bettering a breed trying to get the genetics right and still keep the look of the breed .No puppy you produce looks the same so what standard do you look at. We don't go with the latest trend most stick with their breeds. You talk as if they are like a purse or the newest style Jeans. What seperates the "hybrids" or cross breeds at the Shelters from these designer dogs that are so expensive? I know at our shelter you can adopt a DESIGNER DOG for about $150.00 - $200.00 . And I see DESIGNER DOGS at our shelter all the time .

[adoptashelterpettoday]

As a matter of fact i do testing. and as for my prices if i were to sell my dogs for very little money OR give them away, my puppy just might end up at a puppy mill being abused or worse. My prices ensure (close to it) that they will be taken care of for years to come, and to a great family that will love them as much as i do. I have been breeding for a great number of years, and i like you felt that mix breed dogs were just the mutt on the side of the road, and when i as a pure bred breeder had an accedent with a cross i gave them away to people who i thought would at least love them... turns out my puppies went to puppy mills and back yard beeders and i was heart broken. over the years i have gotten away from most pure breeds because of health issues in the breeds. thats when i decided to start my mixes, and it was the best thing i have ever done for not only me, but my babies. as for all the different mixes out there, hey its like i have always said... no one downs the huge store everyone goes to to buy items that some find upstting... the reason stores carry this stuff is because there is a demand for it... well there is a demand for the mixes too. and as long as im not hurting anyone or my animals, what gives? pure bred breeders cant stand the thought of breeders like us mixing breeds... on the other hand we mix beeders cant stand that pure bred breeders are letting mother - son, brother- sister, aunts and uncles breed together, and i cant help but wonder why there are so many health issues in these breeds... why dont they have a baby with their brother or sister and see how that baby turns out! what a gross thought huh? well they do it to our poor dogs and think thats ok... not for me, ill stick to my little corner of the world and breed my mixes, not hurting anyone nor bothering anyone, others want to be mad at me thats their problem... but before you go slamming on someone else because they mix... at least give them a chance to stand up for what they feel too

God Bless,
tenderlovingpuppies.com

Okay, first of all will you please list the tests you do on every breed of dog you have? I would be interested to know because I dont think you do.

Well, news for you, your dogs are ending up with BYBs/puppy mills. You have no spay/neuter contract so you cant guarentee they wont be bred. It doesnt matter how much someone pays for a dog, if you dont screen homes (and just give the dog to whoever has the $) you cant ensure the dogs get a good home. And there are obvious moral issues as well if you cared so much about your dogs, you would screen.

"as for all the different mixes out there, hey its like i have always said... no one downs the huge store everyone goes to to buy items that some find upstting... the reason stores carry this stuff is because there is a demand for it... well there is a demand for the mixes too"

Just because something is popular doesnt make it right.

" on the other hand we mix beeders cant stand that pure bred breeders are letting mother - son, brother- sister, aunts and uncles breed together, and i cant help but wonder why there are so many health issues in these breeds..."

This is because pure breed breeders KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. They BREED FOR QUALITY NOT $. They know the lines of their dogs, and yes sometimes they do line breed, but they do it to better the breed and they dont breed unhealthy dogs. They research their dogs, figure out which qualities they like and yes they do line breed. Why dont you talk to a RESPECTABLE breeder (none of your friends would fit in this category) and ask them why they line breed.


"but before you go slamming on someone else because they mix... at least give them a chance to stand up for what they feel too"

You have done nothing to convince me you arent a puppy mill, quite the opposite, you have convinced me you ARE in it for the $ and could care less about your dogs. Very sad. You just "dug your own hole" as they say. I feel really horrible for your dogs and really hope that you will be out of buisness soon.

[chinchow]

Many pit bull breeders in the paper and beyond sell dogs for more than $1000, and many end up in the absolute worst of places. If someone wants a dog, and has the money, it doesn't ensure squat.

Most people have a little money to the side for luxuries and such, that doesn't mean they live in a mansion and have knowledge of how to take care of something.

Nice try though.

[Groch]

I am new here (so be gentle) but have read enough to be confused by some of the statements and passion in this thread and others here about "designer" dogs.

Here's a quote from early in the thread:
What is the world coming to! Their MIXES for crying out loud! Go to your local shelter and adopt instead!!! Why add to the unwanted dogs of the world by fooling people that this "designer dog" is a breed! It will never be considered a breed and always a mix for obvious reasons.

Please explain this to me. I am curious, what is it that generates all of the passion here?

1. Is it about bad taste? Is it that if you are considering a Pom/oodle or a Terri poo or other similar little fuzzy dog that you are so indiscriminant that you should go to a shelter and just grab the first animal you see because you obviously have no taste.....those who are true dogophiles would no sooner mix a poodle with a spaniel than a wine connosieur drink a Shriaz/Pino blend.

So why get upset? I like Pino but it does not bother me at all if someone else wants to drink box wine. Isn't that their business?

2. Is this about health? If purebred dogs are inherently healthier than mixed please point me to some references with statistics. Most of the health testing I have read about with purebreds has to do with testing them for specific afflictions that arise BECAUSE they are pure bred.

3. Is it about saving a shelter dog? I believe in that, I am only newly a dog owner and my Shadow, who is mini-poodle perhaps mixed with something else is from a shelter, and all my future dogs will be from there. However, in my search for a compatible dog, the shelters I visited were not filled with cockapoos or pomdoodles or other "designer"breeds. 90%, perhaps more of the shelter dogs were pits, pit mixes, and many large usually black sometimes yellow dogs of varied origin. I do not think these dogs were the result of a designer dog breeder trying to get $300 for a mini mutt. My guess is they were there because unfixed dogs breed and irresponsible owners do not fix their dogs. A little schnoodlecockaterripoo would have been snatched up and adopted in an instant. Was my experience a-typical? Should anyone shopping for a cockapoo be required to own a big ol Yeller first?

I have nothing against ole yeller....perhaps some day I will have the space and time to own one. I just do not see how someone charging $1000 for a pure bred AKC mini-poodle is helping to solve the dog overpopulation problem or promote canine health in general any more so than a designer breeder is. Please set me straight on this.

George

[chinchow]

It's not just mutt breeders. It's all bad breeders.

However, people create these "breeds" for their own selfish reasons. There are plenty of breeds in this world, and mutts in the shelter. But because someone made a lot of money off a cutesy tiny mutt in a basket or next to diet coke cans, everyone had to join in. Either to produce, or to buy. either way, it's contributing to irresponsible breeding.

Not to mention, I've never seen as many as excuses from ANY breeder as I have from mutt breeders. They wrote the big book of excuses themselves and use it every chance they can.

[jason_els]

We can't win this argument. Either the owner of this mill has found some meme that justifys her actions to her conscience or she's worried abou the bad PR and resultant loss of business. Perhaps both.

Let's do a duck test:

1. Is she selling dogs to whomever will send her the money? It appears so.

2. Is she doing PAT? It does not appear so.

3. Is she providing OFA and genetic testing certifications? It does not appear so.

4. Is she providing detailed pedigrees going back at least four generations? It does not appear so.

5. Will she take back the dog if rejected by the owner at any time in the future? It does not appear so.

6. Are the dogs breeds recognized by a reputable and established canine registry? It does not appear so.

7. Is she actually interbreeding the offspring of the dogs to actually create a breed? Is she using champion line breeding stock from various sources to provide for a broad gene pool and then test stock for desired characteristics and undesirable faults? It does not appear so.

8. Is she making a lot of money? It appears so.

It's sad because this appears to combine two of the worst problems in the dog world right now: Puppymills and Backyard Breeding. All evidence we have points to mass-producing completely untested dogs without any hint of attempting to improve them and selling them to whomever wants them and paying zero attention to avoiding genetic defect. If she did, she would say so on her site, sell dogs with a contract, and stipulate that veterinary records be shared with her for the life of the dog. She'd be working with other breeders and demonstrate that by sharing pedigrees. It's like trusting Zach Braff to perform surgery for real. She may want to be a reputable breeder, may think she's doing the dogs a service, may even believe she's doing everything right.

It's like going to Walmart to pay Harry Winston prices. People don't seem to know any better, the breeder included, that there is a world more to breeding any animal or plant than just, "But it's so cute!"

She consistently complains that pure-bred dogs have genetic defects and were once crosses themselves. She's quite right, they do and they were.

That's why they have the defects. When people started doing this ages ago, before they knew about genetics or had the ability to test for genetic traits, they bred for traits they wanted in dogs. Dogs that didn't have the traits were usually destroyed or didn't live to reproduce. They didn't know that breed Y had a tendency to one problem and when breed X was introduced that it too carried that tendency. If you couldn't see it in the dog's behavior or use, it didn't matter much. Dogs were very much and, in some places still are, working animals that served a function. They weren't usually pets and, even if they were, people did not hesitate to breed them into ridiculous shapes and sizes that inhibited their survival functions. Most dogs never lived long, due to environmental factors such as disease and parasites, to exhibit these faults.

Now modern veterinary medicine has greatly extended the lives of dogs and, like in humans, the result is we're seeing problems people never saw not long ago simply because dogs are living longer. We are also not nearly as ruthless about destroying bad breeding stock. Instead we've taken many dogs that do not otherwise pass muster for breeding, give them the status of, "pet," and then sell them on the condition of a spay/neuter agreement. Dogs with the most serious defects (which we can tell by genetic and other testing) and which would not live long because of those defects, are destroyed.

This is how breeds are strengthened and improved. Some breeds need to be bred with other breeds to cure or, at least mitigate, serious defects but those breeds are carefully selected based upon:

1. Will the introduced breed improve the characteristics of the existing breed?

2. Will any other faults be introduced into the line which were not there before? Are those faults only carried by a particular sex?

3. Will the introduced breed lessen the important characteristics of the breed being modified? In what proportion of offspring will this occur(this can be statistically projected)? Is the trait dominant or recessive (can it be bred out?)?

4. Is the gene pool in the introduced breed stable enough to insure that the introduced traits, positive and negative, will be consistent?

These are just a few of the problems (explained as simply as I know how) facing breeders when they decide to take two established breeds and cross them.

I see no evidence she's doing any of that and, sadly, I don't think anything we say here will convince her otherwise. She'll likely invent some argument to justify what she does and go back to pushing puppies to buyers who have no idea what they're getting into. The buyers are ignorant and that's their fault. I admit it's a two-way street. This twisted market wouldn't exist without someone to pay money for the goods.

The current trend of microsizing dogs is the most destructive thing I've ever seen in the dog world. Designer dogs is the second. Thousands of dogs will live miserable lives and die early, many in pain, plenty discarded and unloved. Lives destroyed because some celebrities thought a dog carrier would be cooler than Kelly bag and a hoarde of morons slavishly followed the example. As my mother used to say, "If everyone jumped off the George Washington Bridge would you do it too?"

Newsflash to the world: celebrities have servants to feed their dog, clean the poop and pee out of their bags, walk the dogs, take them to the vet, groom them, and (just possibly) love them and take care of them in splendid opulence the rest of their lives once said celebrity dumps her dog because it wasn't tiny enough (as Paris Hilton just did).

The rest of the world has animal shelters and empty roadsides.

Where's PETA when you need them?

[Groch]

Jason, a very well considered and convincing post. You have given me much to think about.

[skyeboxer]

Jason, a very well considered and convincing post. You have given me much to think about.

I absolutely agree.

Jason, would you please visit www.desidogs.com and perhaps help me pull some content together. All others on the thread too. I have enlisted the help of a volunteer to do much of the uploading plus have a professional writer ready to do some articles for a big discount. Still, you put it all so beautifully, if you could simply rewrite that as an article for the website it would be perfect.

The microsizing thing in particular just ... disgusts me. Teacup toys... so sad.

[12weimgirl]

OMG they say there not a puppy mill and they are!!! did you see all of them they had!!!! there are weimardoodles and thats where i draw the line!!!!!!

:(

[jason_els]

Jason, a very well considered and convincing post. You have given me much to think about.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Mutts happen. Plenty are adorable and wonderful and make great dogs. I have nothing against a plain old lovable mutt. Mistakes happen, a wandering jumping champion finds a bitch and well...... there you are.

The big question with mutts though is, "What do you get?" You don't know. More so you have to watch and see what the parentage is like.

Breed a terrier with a lab... people do it. This combination would likely make a terrible hunting dog given that terriers exist to kill vermin and labs exist to retrieve things. Shoot a duck and your dog races over to it...... and rips it to shreds. Maybe he won't wait for you to shoot and just run out after anything that moves. Maybe it he'll be great at killing things and won't retrieve a **** thing or maybe he'll retrieve everything, including the vermin he grabs, and brings it back to you. It's likely that some puppies in the same litter will be more terrier than lab while others will be about 50/50 and still others will be more lab than terrier. Now you can look at the dogs and see which ones appear to be more one than the other, but you won't know their temperament.

Think about people. "Gee, he looks just like his dad," but maybe he has his mother's talent for music or math: two things his father wasn't good at. This is what happens. You can't tell by looks what the temperament of the dog will be. Terriers can be very dominant and aggressive but they aren't worrisome most of the time because they're so small. People see a little Yorkie snarling and barking and nipping and call it, "feisty." Now imagine a lab-sized dog with that kind of temperament. Not so cute is he? It's a completely mixed bag.

It's not just temperament either. A poodle and a cocker spaniel may look cute as a mix, but they're both prone to progressive retinal atrophy (PRA. Wrecklessly combining both breeds can amplify this problem meaning where before it was just a problem seen in a few purebred dogs (because careful breeding has lessened the occurence), it's now explosive in cockerdoodles because both breeds tend to carry this genetic tendency.

Another problem is mental. Poodles used to be extremely popular and that popularity resulted in poodles bred indifferently by puppy mills and BYBs. This resulted in a lot of poodles becoming neurotic and fearful with biting problems. American cockers suffered the same problem. Mix the two breeds together and you increase the chances of this potentially dangerous trait.

Consider. Do you think mix breeders are searching for screended stock to lessen the chances of these occuring in their mix? Even if they are, introducing two breeds with the same issue increases the chances of that issue occuring in offspring. What do you think they do with pups who don't look cute?

You may have heard of a very special dog breed called the Lundehund. Lundies, as their fans call them, are spitz-type dogs but with six toes, cat-like agility, and remarkably supple joints. Lundies can bend their head back over their shoulder and lie splay-legged on the ground.

Lundies have a severe problem. By the end of World War 2, there were only 6 Lundies left in the world. Breeders thought they were being careful, breeding as carefully as possible. Now there are about 2000 dogs in the world, but they are very sick. They suffer from a syndrome that causes intestinal problems so they can't absorb nutrients from food. Some Lundies don't appear to have symptoms, but they all have the defect that causes it. As a result, most Lundies die 5-6 years after birth.

This illustrates what happens when genetic stock drops so low but also illustrates the effect of a genetic fault in what was likely one dog in those original 6. The entire breed is at risk and it's going to take drugs or genetic therapy to rid the breed of these problems. Another option may be to introduce a similar breed without the defect. Nobody wants to see the Lundie lose its unique characteristics so breeders will look for similar spitz breeds and then breed them with Lundies. They will test their stock for Lundie traits and, if they're lucky, find one that's all Lundie in every way it's important to be a Lundie without the deadly genetic flaw. Maybe it will take 1 generation, maybe 20. Those pups who don't quite make the grade either way, and that could be many, may be able to become pets but it would be essential to have those pet-quality dogs neutered and spayed lest they begin to spread Lundehund Syndrome among dogs who are not currently affected.

There are modern breeds, new ones being created all the time but usually the reason is because there are no current breeds which satisfy the needs of people. Good breeders will work carefully to create their breed. A Dutchman named Sarloos was unhappy the high-occurence of hip dysplasia in GSDs so he bred in some wolves to correct the defect in the GSD, but then bred back to GSDs so that the dogs were dogs once again with dog-temperaments and completely trustworthy; only without crippling dysplasia. It's worked very well and now the Sarloos Wolfhound is growing in popularity. That's what careful breeding can do.

Dogs are an exceptional example of what humans can do to genetics without a single testtube in sight. We've bred dogs, conciously or unconciously so that the Great Dane is the same animal as a Shih-Tzu is the same as a Clumber Spaniel, is the same as a Karelian Bear Dog. What we do with this power makes a great deal of difference to us and our oldest companion.

[TopShelfPets]

[QUOTE=Groch;590223

3. Is it about saving a shelter dog? I believe in that, I am only newly a dog owner and my Shadow, who is mini-poodle perhaps mixed with something else is from a shelter, and all my future dogs will be from there. However, in my search for a compatible dog, the shelters I visited were not filled with cockapoos or pomdoodles or other "designer"breeds. 90%, perhaps more of the shelter dogs were pits, pit mixes, and many large usually black sometimes yellow dogs of varied origin. I do not think these dogs were the result of a designer dog breeder trying to get $300 for a mini mutt. My guess is they were there because unfixed dogs breed and irresponsible owners do not fix their dogs. A little schnoodlecockaterripoo would have been snatched up and adopted in an instant. Was my experience a-typical? Should anyone shopping for a cockapoo be required to own a big ol Yeller first?

George[/QUOTE]

I know this has been answered, but I feel like sticking my two cents in. I think you misunderstood the point being made about shelter dogs.

There are already tons of mutts in shelters. Loveable, crazy, strays and abandoned or surrendered dogs.

But there are people who will not see the evil puppy mill "designer" breeds as the same thing as a loveable mutt, they read the misnomer and see it as something new and special. So they spend $1200 on a "designer" mutt and the poor shelter dog, who is only in a shelter because it belonged to a little old lady who passed away, gets ignored. And then maybe the poor shelter dog gets euthanized.

Statistically, the most prominent dogs in shelters/pounds are big black males. That fact is actually why I adopted Jager. I was afraid no one else would, and he really deserved a chance. So do all shelter dogs.

[mrose_s]

URGH

they actually advertise them as designer dogs to.


http://www.tenderlovingpuppies.com/DESIGNER%20PUPPIES.htm

[mrose_s]

http://www.designerdoggies.com/minisaint.html


ARGH. mini Saint Bernards now?
yet ( and this is the clever bit) it has no saint bernard DNA

AND doesn't actually look like one.


genius. :rolleyes:

[shadowfacedanes]

http://www.designerdoggies.com/minisaint.html


ARGH. mini Saint Bernards now?
yet ( and this is the clever bit) it has no saint bernard DNA

AND doesn't actually look like one.


genius. :rolleyes:


Ugh. My skin actually crawled looking at that site. Idiots. And how the hell did they get the concept of Mini-Saint out of that dog? It looks like a terrier mix. REPULSIVE!!

[chowchow186]

Disgusting! Look at that "Chug". Legs thin like a chihuahua, while body square and compact like a pug. And that muzzle, disgusting! How can anyone create such a creature. Looks so sad in its eyes. And the mini saint? Then great danes must have created the schauzer and the shih tzu must have been related to a GSD!!! Freaks. These people should breed themselves with an elephant then a mouse and see what happens. Hopefully, they don't collapse from their minute legs and gigantic bodies.

[TopShelfPets]

this might be a really petty point, but THREW is the past tense of the verb "to throw". She threw the ball. THROUGH (or even THRU) is a preposition.

If you're trying be professional, and run a business through a website, you should have it grammar checked! and those posts by TLPuppies...

Sorry, i've been really trying not to nitpick spelling and grammar stuff, but i've got an English degree, sometimes that stuff just really grates on the ol' nerves.

[~Jessie~]

^^^ I agree, Topshelf Pets. I always notice grammar mistakes, which causes me to look even more down upon these breeders.

[Dreeza]

Totally agree about the grammar...

not to mention the hideousness (sp!?) of those websites.

I know its stupid, but those WAY overdone, ugly as all heck, graphic/color crazy websites just SCREAM bad business to me. I have on more than one occasion ruled a company out COMPLETELY based on an unprofessional website.

Wont even bother getting to the content...if i was that disgusted by the layout of the site, im sure you can imagine how disgusted i was by the content....

[MaryAndDobes]

[B]if i were to sell my dogs for very little money OR give them away, my puppy just might end up at a puppy mill being abused or worse. My prices ensure (close to it) that they will be taken care of for years to come

Price does no such thing.

My rescue routinely has registered dogs turned in with their papers and receipts for $1500 - $2000. Money means someone can afford a dog, period. Not that they will be responsible with it or love it forever. You are fooling yourself if you believe money paid makes someone responsible and a good owner. Actually, I don't think you do believe it. It's just another one of your excuses for what you do ...