Dog and trash...

[GlassOnion]

Ok one of my dogs has always been one to get into trash while we're gone. We know it's him. When he's kenneled it doesn't happen and we finally decided to see if it really WAS him or if our other dog was intelligent enough to tell the difference between when he was kenneled and not and only dig through then.

We set up a video camera nearby the trash can, and yes, it is him.

So what I don't get is, he knows he's going to get into trouble for it. Why does he keep doing it? Is the punishment not harsh enough? It can't be that he's hungry as we more or less free feed the dogs so there's always food in their bowls. So how do we get him to stop?

We used an electric wire to deter him from digging under our fence (one of his past problems) and he stopped that REAL fast. Unfortunately that's not an option in this case.

[dogstarsleddogs]

We used to have this problem with the cats. Came up with a solution that worked real quick- a bit of bleach. Doesnt have to be alot, maybe 1/4 c. After you have a few things in there, pour some in. (Mainly because I'm not sure if it will eat the bag) After they get a good smell, they will stay away. Havent had a cat in the trash for quite some years now.
Either that, or make sure you dont have any trash. Go outside to throw things away. (In an outside trash can...not recomending littering, lol)
Or buy a trash can that has a lid that will really lock on.

[bubbatd]

Put the trash can up when you leave .

[Rubylove]

Put the trash can up when you leave .
Yuh huh. It shouldn't be about the punishment being `harsh' enough **shudders** - clearly punishment is not working (never does, actually - it just masks behaviours).

Your dog is getting some big pay-off that you don't know about from going through the trash. That's why he keeps doing it. How does he know he will actually get in trouble for it if he always does it while you are out? If you're punishing him after the fact he's never going to associate the two. Only if you consistently catch and correct him in the act (ie interrupt his behaviour) will he learn what he's getting in trouble for.

So if you can't interrupt him and he won't stop, set him up to succeed and keep the trash out of his reach. Easy. :)

[oc_spirit]

Put a mouse trap in there and let him figure out the rest. I have heard of this working very well with a number of people and not one dog was harmed by it. The trap snaps but the dogs have always been fast enough to pull their nose away before it gets caught. No pain, just a big startle. Depending on how stubborn your dog is you may have to do it a couple times. Also only do it when someone is at home just in case the rarity happens that somehow your dog does get caught by the trap.

[Herschel]

So what I don't get is, he knows he's going to get into trouble for it.

No he doesn't. Dogs don't think like that. The dog sees you leaving the trash out for him--how is that different than any of the other toys that you give him?

Stop sending mixed signals and keep the trash away from your dogs. Problem solved.

[Buddy'sParents]

Dogs don't think, "oh boy if I dig in this nummy trash I'm going to get grounded for a week- or worse!" :eek:

It's simple- put the trash up when you leave. :)

(side note- we did the mouse trap thing with counter surfing and it didn't really do much. THe mouse traps were put upside down so no paws or snouts would get caught in them. Buddy would stop for a second at the snapping but then go on his happy sniffing way. So mouse traps aren't always a good solution and dangerous if intended for the dogs to be snapped.)

[Rubylove]

Put a mouse trap in there and let him figure out the rest. I have heard of this working very well with a number of people and not one dog was harmed by it. The trap snaps but the dogs have always been fast enough to pull their nose away before it gets caught. No pain, just a big startle. Depending on how stubborn your dog is you may have to do it a couple times. Also only do it when someone is at home just in case the rarity happens that somehow your dog does get caught by the trap.
Pleeeeease don't do that. I shudder every time I hear that piece of advice. Dogs are not `stubborn' anyway - it just takes some time to work out every dog's trigger. And it doesn't matter if `not one dog' has been harmed by it. The fact is the potential is there and any potential for harm is too much IMO. Dogs noses are the most sensitive part of their bodies - it's how they work most stuff in their lives out. They are like our fingertips only much more sensitive. To have a mouse trap (designed to break the neck of a small creature) go off on a sensitive doggy nose could not only cause lasting physical damage, the pain associated and the shock and fear could cause lasting psychological damage that could go a lot further than a future fear of mouse traps.

How would you like it if something that you really loved doing and was perfectly natural to you resulted in a horrible shock and extreme pain right on the tips of your fingers? You wouldn't, and you would be left permanently wary after that.

It's cruel and unkind - regardless of whether the dog gets hurt or not. Scare tactics is NOT how you train your dog.

[makka619]

Put the bin in a cupboard with a lock on it.

[Cheetah]

What kind of trash can is it? Trash digging with Eevee was something I could only prevent by getting a SECURE covered trash can. Also, to be safe, I also gate off the kitchen. She hasn't gotten into the trash in a LONG time, simply because she can't.

If you free-feed your dog, maybe your dog is bored and wants a more challenging way to get food (dissecting the trash can). Does your dog have a Kong? A Buster Cube?

[carlar]

I vote for putting the trash in a secure location where the dog can't get to it. It is the safest option.

[dr2little]

Mouse traps....harsh punishment????:confused:

Unless those horrible correction are delivered to the HUMAN who left the trash out in the first place, these kinds of corrections given to a dog for a HUMAN ERROR are crazy.

Like the others said, this is the OWNERS fault. Not the DOGS.

[Doberluv]

No, he does not know he's going to get in trouble for digging in the trash. If it were a human child, that might be another story. Dogs do what works. How else would they have survived and evolved into what they are now, very successful parasites. ROFLOL. They do what is safe as long as it works. Everytime he's been successful at getting food from the garbage, that behavior was reinforced. What dog wouldn't get into the garbage if they could get food? This is how domestic dog became domestic.

Prevent the payoff, stop the behavior. In this case, the only way to keep the dog from getting the payoff is to remove it. Or if you have the stomach for it, try the mousetrap. But if it ever gets a toe caught, it could really do some psychological damage. You don't know what else he'll associate that with...the kennel itself? Will he be afraid of going in the kennel in the future? Will it make him a more fearful and wary animal in general? He's an animal, not a human. Don't project your human morality (he knows he'll get in trouble) onto him. He doesn't think that way. Just remove the garbage or make it inaccessable to him.

[bubbatd]

I keep my trash in a pantry with folding door . Ollie never gets into it , but when Hunter's here , he does . Of course only when I'm gone . So I put the can up and when I get home , the folding door is wide open .

[Doberluv]

I didn't have any problem until recently. My kitchen trash is under the sink in the cabinet in a tall, plastic garbage can with a bag inside. Smarty pants Jose figured out how to hook his little paw on the edge of the door and pull open the door, stand on his hind legs and pick out the coffee filter, spilling all the grounds on the rug in front of the sink and get hold of who knows what. So, after a couple of times.....yes, it took me a couple of times to catch on. I thought....."how could he? He won't do that again." LOL. Ok....so to the hardware store I went and installed one of those child proof thingies. It's a hassle, but I'm getting use to it. And little smarty pants isn't able to get into the garbage anymore.

[GlassOnion]

No, I'm fairly certain he knows what he's doing is wrong. When we come home he cringes and hides in his kennel.

Now you might say this is because we punish him whenever we come home so he associates us coming home to being punished. Wrong.

He only cringes AFTER he's been through the trash. If we leave no trash out for him to go through, then he doesn't try to hide in his kennel when we get home.

If some trash was left out, then he hides soon as he hears us coming (because he's gone through it).


And I'm not convinced that dogs operate on as simple a level as some of ya'll think they do.

[Cheetah]

Or, he could be connecting the trash being dumped/whatever with you being angry/upset, and so every time you come home and the trash is scattered (or even one piece of trash is on the floor), he becomes afraid. The cowering is not guilt for knowing what he did wrong, it's full of submissive calming signals to try and calm you down. And he's not going to remember something he did an hour or more prior... Dogs live in the moment. >O.o<

[RedyreRottweilers]

Dogs do not have ANY concept of wrong. Your dog is having a ball digging out that trash. He can't wait, in fact, for you to leave again so he can do it.

He enjoys it just as much every time he does it. Every time he does it, he is exponentially more likely to do it again, and try harder to achieve his goal. Regardless of why the dog cringes when you return (!!!!), the ONLY solution to this problem is to prevent the dog ANY opportunity to demonstrate this behavior.

Either all trash must be securely and absolutely away and out of his reach, or the dog must be confined so that he cannot get to any trash receptacles.

Prevention is KEY in preventing these types of cycles of behaviors from developing and escalating.

Please read Why Your Puppy Needs A Toy Box (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43023) to better understand why prevention is so important, and how to teach your puppy to chew only approved items.

[Doberluv]

And I'm not convinced that dogs operate on as simple a level as some of ya'll think they do.

How much behaviorism have you studied? Where is the science to support your theory? You may well be right. Maybe one day, there will be a shift in collective beliefs about dog behavior. But for now, all we have to rely on is what has been experimented on; controlled studies done in animal behavioral departments of universities, scientists with advanced degrees in behavior, ethology, biology and the like, who have spent decades observing and testing, experimenting on behavior in dogs, comparing chemistry and brain activity etc.... after considerable education.

Of course, no one knows for certain what goes on in an animal's head. But it is a dangerous thing to make assumptions such as... your dog feels guilty when you come home for having gotten into the garbage because he knows it's morally wrong...... because the dog likely gets the rough end of the deal.

It's a lot safer to assume the dog does not have such a sense of morals about getting into garbage, that he doesn't know English well enough or understand our value system (that getting into garbage is messy and we don't like it). His value system is that it IS a good thing to get into garbage. He doesn't mind messes and it would be awfully complicated or him to be able to relate to our not liking messes. Good heavens! They're smart. But they're not that smart. To him, there's nothing wrong with it. It's profitable. It's safe to get into it when you're gone and not safe when you're present. Why does it have to be that his brain thinks like yours? Highly unlikely. He's a VERY different specie with different motivations, values, and wiring. He's an opportunist and scavenger who does what works for HIM. Not for you.

Just remove the garbage. Some behaviors are better off being managed and spend your energy on training something else.

[Herschel]

OP, I guarantee you that if you keep the trash in a secure location where the dogs can't get to it, then your dogs won't get into the trash in the future.

If you do that, I will personally pay you $100 for every time your dog gets into the trash.

[corsomom]

Sophie still will get into the trash if left out.I just put it up.Last winter I was making something with flour and had alot of excess I tossed in the garbage, then walked away to do something. I heard her in the garbage so called her, she came running to me, sat and looked up at me with her whole head pure white, could just see those big brown eyes looking at me like "what mom?, I wasnt doing anything"Wish I had a picture of that one!

[Doberluv]

LOL. Yes, "Hi Mom! Did you need something or can I get back to what I was doing? I'm very busy, you see." That would have made a good picture. LOL.

OP, I guarantee you that if you keep the trash in a secure location where the dogs can't get to it, then your dogs won't get into the trash in the future.

:lol-sign: That's good!

[Rubylove]

Firstly, dogs aren't `simple', they're DOGS. If dogs could think like humans, they would be humans, wouldn't they? They are DIFFERENT to us and you must respect this in order to get the results that you want.

But here's something simple for you. Did you ever consider that every time you leave the trash out, you know he's going to go through it, and so you come home expecting it to be everywhere, you're angry and it shows in your body language, and that's why he cringes??? And when you DON'T leave it out, you know it WON'T be gone through, you come home relaxed and it shows in your body language, and he DOESN'T cringe? It's really that simple and you need to think more like a dog, and less like a human, to realise how completely obvious his behaviour is.

And anyway, why on earth would you put your dog in a situation where it gets so frightened and anxious that it cringes and crawls away from you? I couldn't bear to see that in another animal.

Do some role-playing. One day, come home, and for no reason whatsoever scream and yell at one of your children (if you have any). Hit them if you can. Don't explain what the problem is, just stand there pointing at the wall, going nuts and blowing your head off. If you can, try to do it in another language so all they understand is their name. Five minutes later calm down and give them a cuddle.

The next day, do the same thing.

The day after that, I'd say that that same child is probably going to be a bit nervous and wary about seeing you. Explain to everyone else you know that you're really angry at your child because it walks past that same wall EVERY DAY to get to the kitchen, and it's not allowed to do that. Explain it to your child, too, but again in that other language if you can. You'll know what you meant, and your child should know because you are, after all, pointing at the wall.

They'll get it soon enough, if you keep pointing and screaming eventually it will sink in. And the child will stop walking past the wall. Because, really, it's so obvious what you are trying to teach it.

[Cheetah]

I still think that making the dog work for its food might also fulfill some of that instinct to scavenge.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v159/ShroudedCheetah/ShippoBCube.jpg

[GlassOnion]

Yah I don't have any children and even if I did I'm not going to hit them. I don't hit my dog either. He gets ignored or put outside whenever he's bad. That's why I was wondering if the punishment wasn't harsh enough.

And if your theory were correct he'd cringe away when I'm angry about something other than the trash, like work or something. He doesn't.


And science can't prove that dogs do or don't work at a simple level at this moment. It's just as dangerous to just accept a 'fact' instead of disputing it. You think dogs have no thought process and are just "if I do this, then I get that". I think dogs DO have thought processes and it's not just an elegant strain of correlations.

Or actually, that is a thought process because that's essentially what we humans do.


And no, if I lock my trash away the dog won't get into it. Why? Dogs don't have opposable thumbs and can't open doors. :rolleyes: That's not the point. I want to train the dog to not dig through the trash whether I'm there or not.

[Rubylove]

Fair enough. But what is the point is that whatever you're doing isn't working - which includes punishing the dog waaaaaay after he's done what he's done. So you don't have kids, but do you get what I'm trying to say with the example? You've just got to put yourself in the dog's perspective, is all.

I can agree that everything else we're talking about could be open to debate but punishing a dog after the fact is completely useless and that should NOT be disputed. It's been known to be true for so long that it's almost like a doggy law. It's just pointless. You've got to catch them in the act for it to be meaningful AT ALL.

And no, my theory doesn't work if you're angry about what you saw on television or something. Because it's not the same thing at all. One thing that dogs are far more sophisticated at than us is body language. That, and their sense of smell, are the two most powerful indicators of their surroundings for a dog. They work on it, they live by it. They can detect subtle nuances that a human would miss with a magnifying glass. Seriously, they outstrip humans at that by a ratio of hundreds.

So he DOES know the difference between you being angry at the trash and being angry about something that happened at work. Not just by your body language, but by your smell. He knows how to smell anger, and fear and everything else we can only understand because of action and spoken word.

He also probably knows how to smell the difference between trash-anger and work-anger. Dogs have over 200 million more smell receptors in their noses than humans. They have a sense of smell 10,000 times more acute than hours. They can smell a human fingerprint on a pane of glass that has been left outside for two weeks. They can sure smell the difference between your levels of anger. That is actually indisputable fact. It's their most acute sense, and they survive by what it tells them.

[Cheetah]

This is a slightly sensitive subject for me, because when I was too young to really do anything about it, my dog Eevee was beaten and kicked for getting into the trash when nobody was around. People (my dad mainly) would come home, see the trash, and just beat the crap out of her/scream at her. She had NO idea why she was being hurt and screamed at, and the people REFUSED to just get a covered trash can and prevent it forever, and would rather just leave a big, open trash can full of nasty, spoiled morsels out in the open and expect her not to be tempted.

Ever since I've had her on my own, I've kept nothing but covered trash cans in my house. Guess how many times I've caught her in the trash and had to be mad and stressed out about it? And you know what? I can stay at other peoples' houses who don't have covered trash cans, because out of sight = out of mind, and if you prevent a dog from engaging in a behavior for so long, the dog begins to forget it was ever interested in doing that.

The more the dog gets into the trash, the more the dog is going to LOOVE getting into the trash and want to do it again. So I have to agree that prevention would be the best measure in this case, as well as giving the dog a better way of scrounging up food (make the dog work for it and he'll forget the trash even exists).

[GlassOnion]

You're assuming that emotions even have smells. Or that if different scents are secreted from emotions (which is possible I'll admit) that it differs by the target of your frustration. Essentially you're just going 'dog has powerful nose, he can tell!!' which...no.


And I know that if you, to the dog, randomly explode on it for something it did a couple hours ago, it's not going to correlate the problem with the punishment. But if you take the dog to the spot and tell him no, I'm pretty sure he can correlate the problem then. Dogs aren't stupid, and they're not so simple that they can't put 2 and 2 together. Some people seem to think they are but I'd have to disagree.

If nothing else he could smell the problem.

[Rubylove]

It's not an assumption. It's a scientific fact. I'm not just making it up cos it sounds fancy!! Our emotions and the way they manifest is chemically and physiologically based. And yes, dogs can smell that. They can also smell cancerous cells way before any human-made technology can detect them. This is also a fact. What I am giving you is science, not assumptions.

And again, it's the pointing at the wall scenario. You are taking your dog to trash on the ground, pointing at it and telling him off. Um, sorry, but how does that turn into, `When I go out and leave the trash, and then you go through it and scatter it everywhere, that's the wrong thing to do, and that's why you're getting in trouble'. You must be pretty amazing if you can point to something and impart all that with one gesture.

How is showing him something and telling him off going to make that connection for him? That implies a level of reasoning which is what separates us from animals in the first place. First of all, your dog doesn't even know what the concept of trash is. To him its just stuff in a bucket. No different to anything else immediately in his surroundings that he wants to explore. You'd have as much impact if you pointed to his ball and told him off.

Secondly, dogs don't know what `pointing' or `showing' is. He might not even realise you're showing him the trash. He might focus on the ground under the trash, or a leaf lying next to the trash. More likely, he's just watching you make weird gestures that have no meaning to him. There is no way to specifically point out what you are talking about to him. Pointing, or showing, is something humans invented because they had the ability to understand the gesture. It doesn't exist in the dog world - you don't see dogs showing stuff to each other. It's too random.

Again, I'm not saying dogs are simple and that simple = stupid. What I am saying is that they are phsyiologically and psychologically put together differently from humans, and so human methods of communication are not adequate.

If dogs could understand and work out all the things you're saying they can, then you wouldn't have a problem, would you? The fact is you do have a problem, therefore what you're doing doesn't work.

I think all the questions you're asking and all the arguments you're offering are exactly the ones you should be, to help you understand your dog better. What I want to know is, if you are so convinced your dog knows what he is doing is wrong, and he knows he will get into trouble, why is he still doing it? Why would you consistently, and continually do something you get in trouble for? It does not make sense. It's nothing to do with harsher punishment. I can guarantee that if you made the punishment harsher it would make no difference because he does not get what you are trying to make him learn.

Clearly, you started this thread because what you're doing is not working and you've asked for help. You've had a lot of very experienced people tell you why it's not working and offered you help. Is there part of you that is willing to try something different? Because if you're not prepared to listen to the advice of people who really know what they're talking about, I don't know why you asked for advice in the first place.

The advice you've been given isn't just stuff that's been made up for fun. It is scientific behaviour and learning theory that has been researched and studied and had more time gone into its development than you can imagine. And yet apparently it's wrong. I don't get it.

[GlassOnion]

What I want to know is, if you are so convinced your dog knows what he is doing is wrong, and he knows he will get into trouble, why is he still doing it?

That's why I came here to ask. One why he's still doing it, two what to do to get him to stop. Ya'llve only given me ways to circumvent the problem. I'm smart enough to put away the trash but that's not solving the problem, just putting a band aid on it. I could come back one day to a busted cabinet door from my dog trying to get into it.

And no, what seperates us from the animals is not a level of reasoning. There are some extremely intelligent animal species out there. What seperates us are physical abilities, such as opposable thumbs, bipedal ability, and other physical attributes. Octopi are very intelligent creatures but they're not on the same level as us. Why? They can't leave the water, they'd dry up. We have the ability to leave the water and so we're dominant over them.


And I agreed that dogs could smell senses, but what they can't smell is whether you're angry at them or at a co-worker. Somehow I doubt our secretions are target specific.


And also if dogs are as good at reading emotions/nonverbal gestures as you say they are he would see that I'm bringing him to the trash that he went through, he'd recognize it, see that I'm angry and go "oh, he's angry about the trash". I don't think that takes an entirely new level of reasoning for him to comprehend.

[Herschel]

GlassOnion,

You are absolutely not in a field related to the sciences, are you?

To answer your questions:
1) You allow him to get into the trash; therefore, he gets into the trash.
2) To get him to stop, put the trash in a secure location.

These aren't ways to circumvent the problem, they are direct answers to your questions.

Actually, as someone that is pursuing a doctorate in Neuroscience, I can tell you that reason DOES separate us from other animals. I don't deny that dogs are incredibly intelligent, that they have emotions, and that they capable of some level of understanding. However, I also know that they act by instinct, which isn't solely driven by physical attributes.

Dogs are scavengers! Leaving trash out for them is like leaving a plate of cookies out when your kids are home alone and asking them not to eat them. It's just too tempting and they are bound to falter. And in this case, we're talking about human children, who DO have the ability to reason and can understand your language.

You can't sit down with your dog and say, "All right, Buddy. I don't like it when you get into the trash, so don't do it anymore." The reason that your dog doesn't understand you isn't only due to physical attributes, but rather due to differences in language and cognitive function.

If your dog could talk, his response would probably be something like this, "But why? It tastes so good." Your dog doesn't understand that you don't like it, all it knows is that there is something tasty and fun that you left out for him!

This has to be torture for the dog, by the way. You leave bait, and when your dog takes it, you punish (ignore) him. Maybe people aren't the most reasonable beings after all?

Dogs CAN smell when you've had a rough day. Why do you think a lot of show people chew gum//eat mints when they are showing their dogs? It prevents the dog from smelling that they are nervous.

I'm surprised RubyLove has taken the time/energy to explain these things to you repeatedly. There is a pretty decent consensus in this thread that the best way for you to prevent your dog from getting into the trash is to....prevent your dog from getting into the trash! (By putting it in a secure location)

Alternatively, you could crate your dogs and that would keep them away from the trash, as well. Not as punishment, but as proactive prevention.

I'm sure you're going to get defensive again and respond to my post by telling me that your dogs are capable of human reasoning, but that isn't the point of this thread. You've been given great answers, whether you choose to listen to them or not is your choice.

[Rubylove]

Yuh, I give up **shakes head**

I have two last things to say. Yes, dogs are expert at reading emotions and body-language (which is not the same as non-verbal gestures but they're good at that, too, incidentally) They can recognise the signs that look and smell like `anger', or `praise' etc. They cannot infer the chain of thought that goes with your visual/olfactory appearance to them. They simply know you're angry. They don't know WHY you're angry. And as I said, they might not even know you're pointing/showing the trash. Its a random concept to them - I repeat, you could point at his ball for all the difference it would make. Oh, and dogs are colourblind, too - they only have two different types of rods in their retina, not three. So he won't be seeing what you're seeing, the way you're seeing it.

My second and last thing before I give up entirely is, if you want proof, try it. For TWO WEEKS don't be angry when he goes through the trash. Just don't be. Make a concerted, positive effort to be bright before you even walk in the door. I can guarantee in less time than that he will have stopped cringing when you get home. (Unless you really are still angry and trying to hide it - they can see through that, again body language and scent will give you away. You've actually got to NOT BE angry).

But anyway, you've been given your answers. Whether or not you want to take the advice of experienced professionals is your own prerogative.

[MafiaPrincess]

My mother won't budge on her old non lidded garbage can. Cider is never uncrated when I'm not home, she trash dives when she is able. She is constantly told no and such but really even catching her in the act wasn't stopping it. After 2 weeks at relatives' I very much liked that their trash was under a sink. No diving at all.

Only tonight did I pressure her into a new garbage can, taller with lid.. She's not happy, but I hope she'll get used to it, because my trash diver can't dive anymore.

[Rubylove]

And one last last thing because I can't help it...

What seperates us are physical abilities, such as opposable thumbs, bipedal ability, and other physical attributes
Monkeys have all of these things. Bears have bipedal abilities. So do meerkats. Why don't you see monkeys, bears and meerkats on Wall Street and holding down jobs as orthopaedic surgeons? Because it's their level of reasoning ability that keeps them separate. Even though the monkey is much more cognitively advanced than most of its mammalian counterparts, it's still not enough to make them human.