60 Dogs to be Killed at Medical College

[Barley'sMom]

http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/video/10673391/index.html

The Medical College of Wisconsin is about to use 60 innocent dogs in a 1st year student physiology course. The dogs are sedated, cut open, experimented on, then killed. The college is one of 2 in the country that still uses dogs, and they have human simulators available that most med schools (Harvard, Yale, etc) use instead. Because they are timid and trusting, most of the dogs they use are Beagles. It is not for research - it's more about learning about which tools to use for the circulatory system, and it's an antiquated method.

[Lizmo]

That is horrible :mad: :mad: I HATE That! It makes me soooooo mad! :mad: :(

[Bobsk8]

Sounds like the Nazi Concentration Camps medical team at work....

[Buddy'sParents]

:( :(

[bubbatd]

So sad !!! To think that some of these are stolen dogs and sold ...................

[~Jessie~]

That is awful :( That makes me so sad.

[Miakoda]

So sad !!! To think that some of these are stolen dogs and sold ...................


I'm not sure aobut there, but LSU Vet School still does this. However, they get all their dogs from local animal shelters & only those whose time is up & are scheduled to be euthanized in 24 hours.

I'm sure I'm going to be the evil one here, but I don't think what LSU is doing is wrong. Those dogs are taken into the vet school, treated very lovingly by students, properly anesthetized so students can do their surgeries & are never woken up. It's a painless end for an animal that had no where to go & was going to die anyways. No matter how much simulators & virtual reality programs gain in technology & whatnot, they are no comparison to actually doing the procedure on a real animal with a real cardiovascualar & respiratory systems & complete with real organs.

While some of you I guess don't mind that your animal will be the first real live dog your newly graduated vet does a procedure on, many others prefer that a vet have more than textbook & simulated experience.

As for the practice of stealing animals or breeding animals strictly for science, well, that's a whole other cup of tea & I am definitely against it. But as far as I know, vet schools don't take in animals from puppy mills/bybs or from suspicious characters offering a litter of puppies hidden underneath a long black trench coat.

[Barley'sMom]

Miakoda! I totally respect your rational point here... but it's not a Vet school... it ABSOLUTELY makes sense for vets to practice on animals - they will be future patients, and when they use animals responsibly, that's a different situation. These students are future physicians... if they make it through med school. The best schools in the country do without using dogs (Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins), and as one interviewed students said, "it's disrespectful to life in general to teach us that animals are disposable - we see our very first patient die on the table, purposely."

It's a different case with vet schools, I think. In med school, they do have opportunities to practice on human cadavers, because they will treat humans eventually.

See my point?

[Alexa's~Mom]

That is completely wrong. I can understand for a vet school, but a normal med school? Ugh...

[StealthDog]

But as far as I know, vet schools don't take in animals from puppy mills/bybs or from suspicious characters offering a litter of puppies hidden underneath a long black trench coat.

Because they are timid and trusting, most of the dogs they use are Beagles.

Just a couple comments... First, obviously when all but two medical schools in the country are using alternative methods of teaching physiology, this lab cannot be "necessary" for training physicians. Second, I'm glad to see people here saying that using animals is understandable for a vet school... there are lots of people that don't agree. Thank you for understanding that there is nothing that vet students LIKE about ending dogs' lives in order to learn surgical techniques.

As far as the above two quotes, I can tell you about our schools' policies. When we use cadaver animals (i.e. for anatomy lab), they come from animal control after AC has euthanized them, or they come from Carolina Biological Supply, who also gets euthanized shelter animals. However, there is one course that has a terminal surgery (in which the animals are operated on live, but euthanized immediately afterwards), and no shelter would come close to being involved in such a program due to the potential for bad PR. Thus most, if not all, schools that have terminal surgeries in the curriculum have to use purpose-bred dogs (dogs bred specifically for research). Beagles are a very common research dog, which is why the dogs we get are typically beagles (not because they are "timid and trusting"). The approximate cost per dog is $12,000 due to the strict regulations that research breeding facilities must follow. We get one dog per three students. The lab is optional.

[Bobsk8]

I'm not sure aobut there, but LSU Vet School still does this. However, they get all their dogs from local animal shelters & only those whose time is up & are scheduled to be euthanized in 24 hours.

I'm sure I'm going to be the evil one here, but I don't think what LSU is doing is wrong. Those dogs are taken into the vet school, treated very lovingly by students, properly anesthetized so students can do their surgeries & are never woken up. It's a painless end for an animal that had no where to go & was going to die anyways. No matter how much simulators & virtual reality programs gain in technology & whatnot, they are no comparison to actually doing the procedure on a real animal with a real cardiovascualar & respiratory systems & complete with real organs.

While some of you I guess don't mind that your animal will be the first real live dog your newly graduated vet does a procedure on, many others prefer that a vet have more than textbook & simulated experience.

As for the practice of stealing animals or breeding animals strictly for science, well, that's a whole other cup of tea & I am definitely against it. But as far as I know, vet schools don't take in animals from puppy mills/bybs or from suspicious characters offering a litter of puppies hidden underneath a long black trench coat.

First of all, I seriously doubt if they were getting 60 beagles that were due to be euthanized in 24 hours, as was mentioned in the news clip.

I am sure that the people that did medical experiments on prisoners during WW2 had their "good" reasons for doing it too. It is still horrible and I think that school should be ashamed to do this. :mad: :mad:

I called the Public Relations number listed on their web site and told them that I think that school should be ashamed of what they are doing. I also told them to get into the 21st century with the rest of the Med schools in the US

Medical College of Wisconsin
Office of Public Affairs
(414) 456-4700

[Burgandy]

Not putting anyones posts on this thread down by any means. This is a very serious and heartening (spelling) topic of discussion. Though in almost every thread that regards a serious issue there is always one post that states the facts- thank god! Stealthdog, thank you for clarifying this. If I didn't read your post I would have left my computer thinking shelter dogs who were not adopted were going to these schools which is a not so nice thought... it's somewhat trajic that these $12,000 Beagles are bred to live a life only to perish for the practice of operating. Although I'm not thrilled- if one dog (as long as it is not repeatedly tested on and harmed) can possibly save 30 others by the works of a quality vet then hate to say it but ok.
being skeptical- I do find it hard to beleive that $12,000 is spent by the University per dog and that some other means (less documented) of obtaining dogs comes into play. Though there I go with the assumptions!!

:rolleyes:

[Bobsk8]

Not putting anyones posts on this thread down by any means. This is a very serious and heartening (spelling) topic of discussion. Though in almost every thread that regards a serious issue there is always one post that states the facts- thank god! Stealthdog, thank you for clarifying this. If I didn't read your post I would have left my computer thinking shelter dogs who were not adopted were going to these schools which is a not so nice thought... it's somewhat trajic that these $12,000 Beagles are bred to live a life only to perish for the practice of operating. Although I'm not thrilled- if one dog (as long as it is not repeatedly tested on and harmed) can possibly save 30 others by the works of a quality vet then hate to say it but ok.
being skeptical- I do find it hard to beleive that $12,000 is spent by the University per dog and that some other means (less documented) of obtaining dogs comes into play. Though there I go with the assumptions!!

:rolleyes:

The post you are speaking of may or may not be the facts in the case of the school mentioned in the OP. To me , the idea of raising these dogs only to be killed almost makes it worse than the previous post that claimed that the dogs were going to be euthanized in a day or two anyway, so it's not big deal.. :mad: ( that doesn't make any sense either as far as I am concerned.)

[Burgandy]

I hate animal testing as well. But it does go on; this is a tuff topic to write on. I understand your being annoyed; this type of thing I'm affraid is a fact of life.

sad topic for sure

[Bobsk8]

I hate animal testing as well. But it does go on; this is a tuff topic to write on. I understand your being annoyed; this type of thing I'm affraid is a fact of life.

sad topic for sure

Well according to the article, it is a fact of life for only 2 out of all the medical schools in the United States. All the rest of them have stopped using dogs for experiments.

[Barley'sMom]

Good points here... the dogs at the medical college are NOT necessary the beagle dogs that are bred specifically for vet schools. The dogs are bought from a USDA Class B Random Source dealer out of Minnesota. This classification means that he can obtain them from random sources, which can include pounds, shelters, classified ads, internet postings, or breeders. There may be other sources as well. Just to clarify. And it is not for vet students - the vet school in Wisconsin at Madison operates in a different fashion...

[moe]

Apparantly the medical school is supplied by a Minnesota, USDA approved, dealer..terrific


context from;The Humane Society
http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/ge...wn_and_out.html
"Class B: Living Up to Its Name
The Class B animal dealer is a USDA-licensed agent allowed to purchase and collect animals from random source--such as "pounds," shelters, auctions, flea markets, and private individuals—and sell them to laboratories, institutions, and other dealers for research, testing, and education. Unless the animals come from pounds or shelters, the Class B dealer is obligated by law to buy animals from individuals who breed and raise the animals on their own properties, or from other dealers who can provide paperwork showing that the animals originated from such a source.
It doesn't necessarily work like that, though. Over the years, many Class B dealers have been caught receiving stolen animals or fraudulently obtaining animals, including pets, and falsifying records to make the transactions stick. Working alongside the Class B dealer in such transactions is the "buncher," typically a shadowy, unlicensed individual who gathers animals from various sources, like "free to a good home" advertisements, or by engaging in outright theft. The falsification of names, addresses, and sources isn't hard to accomplish if you're serious enough about obscuring the means of acquisition and disposition of animals."

The dealer
another article portion, from;
http://virtual.parkland.edu/prospectus/sto...6/features.html
"The dogs used in the class are generally hounds, or "reject hunting dogs," said Ken Schroeder, the school's dog dealer.

Schroeder is a designated USDA Registered Random Source Class B Animal Dealer, meaning he has permission to deal dogs that he gets from "random" sources, including pounds, flea markets and newspaper ads. He can sell them to research institutions, veterinary schools and, in this case, a medical school.

Schroeder, who is based in Wells, Minn., said he deals only with dogs he has bred or has received from acquaintances. He would not divulge his client list or the price he demands for a dog. He also wouldn't reveal the price he pays to purchase his dogs, though he said sometimes he loses money on them.

The Medical College pays him between $200 and $300 a dog. Running the lab costs the school $18,000 a year.

Asked if Schroeder had ethical qualms about selling the animals for research or other medical purposes, he said, "I do and I don't." And he said that "if PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) gives me a million dollars, I'll stop dealing them."

Mo

[Bobsk8]

Apparantly the medical school is supplied by a Minnesota, USDA approved, dealer..terrific


context from;The Humane Society
http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/ge...wn_and_out.html
"Class B: Living Up to Its Name
The Class B animal dealer is a USDA-licensed agent allowed to purchase and collect animals from random source--such as "pounds," shelters, auctions, flea markets, and private individuals—and sell them to laboratories, institutions, and other dealers for research, testing, and education. Unless the animals come from pounds or shelters, the Class B dealer is obligated by law to buy animals from individuals who breed and raise the animals on their own properties, or from other dealers who can provide paperwork showing that the animals originated from such a source.
It doesn't necessarily work like that, though. Over the years, many Class B dealers have been caught receiving stolen animals or fraudulently obtaining animals, including pets, and falsifying records to make the transactions stick. Working alongside the Class B dealer in such transactions is the "buncher," typically a shadowy, unlicensed individual who gathers animals from various sources, like "free to a good home" advertisements, or by engaging in outright theft. The falsification of names, addresses, and sources isn't hard to accomplish if you're serious enough about obscuring the means of acquisition and disposition of animals."

The dealer
another article portion, from;
http://virtual.parkland.edu/prospectus/sto...6/features.html
"The dogs used in the class are generally hounds, or "reject hunting dogs," said Ken Schroeder, the school's dog dealer.

Schroeder is a designated USDA Registered Random Source Class B Animal Dealer, meaning he has permission to deal dogs that he gets from "random" sources, including pounds, flea markets and newspaper ads. He can sell them to research institutions, veterinary schools and, in this case, a medical school.

Schroeder, who is based in Wells, Minn., said he deals only with dogs he has bred or has received from acquaintances. He would not divulge his client list or the price he demands for a dog. He also wouldn't reveal the price he pays to purchase his dogs, though he said sometimes he loses money on them.

The Medical College pays him between $200 and $300 a dog. Running the lab costs the school $18,000 a year.

Asked if Schroeder had ethical qualms about selling the animals for research or other medical purposes, he said, "I do and I don't." And he said that "if PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) gives me a million dollars, I'll stop dealing them."

Mo


What slime!!!!!:mad: :mad:

[StealthDog]

being skeptical- I do find it hard to beleive that $12,000 is spent by the University per dog and that some other means (less documented) of obtaining dogs comes into play.

I would probably be skeptical as well if I hadn't heard this directly from the professor (and surgeon) in charge of the program. The high cost of these dogs does two things- first, it makes the university constantly constantly question whether this is the best way to learn, and second, it gives students an idea of how highly the university values this particular exercise. Also, the cost pays not only for the ability to do a terminal surgery... generally, they first have a less-invasive surgery done, are allowed to recover, then have the more invasive surgery performed, so students have two opportunities to learn there. Then, after euthanasia, the dogs' corneas are harvested for corneal transplants, their brains are used for students in the neurology couse, skin is taken and saved for skin grafts, etc etc. Since we are at a teaching hospital, these dogs are used both for teaching and for medical use, helping to treat dogs that have come to the hospital for special procedures.

I do not believe the dogs would be used as donors for various organs if they came from a random-source dealer.

The college also uses shelter dogs for teaching spays and neuters, so that students get a chance to learn and shelter dogs get a better shot at getting a home because they're already fixed.

Our cadaver animals are quite obviously shelter dogs- the majority have whipworm or heartworm (or both), and many of the females are pregnant. We had 30 animals in our anatomy lab, and I think one out of those 30 was fixed.

After one semester, we've already had several discussions on the ethics of how we use animals at school. It's certainly not a black and white topic...

[Bobsk8]

I would probably be skeptical as well if I hadn't heard this directly from the professor (and surgeon) in charge of the program. The high cost of these dogs does two things- first, it makes the university constantly constantly question whether this is the best way to learn, and second, it gives students an idea of how highly the university values this particular exercise. Also, the cost pays not only for the ability to do a terminal surgery... generally, they first have a less-invasive surgery done, are allowed to recover, then have the more invasive surgery performed, so students have two opportunities to learn there. Then, after euthanasia, the dogs' corneas are harvested for corneal transplants, their brains are used for students in the neurology couse, skin is taken and saved for skin grafts, etc etc. Since we are at a teaching hospital, these dogs are used both for teaching and for medical use, helping to treat dogs that have come to the hospital for special procedures.

I do not believe the dogs would be used as donors for various organs if they came from a random-source dealer.

The college also uses shelter dogs for teaching spays and neuters, so that students get a chance to learn and shelter dogs get a better shot at getting a home because they're already fixed.

Our cadaver animals are quite obviously shelter dogs- the majority have whipworm or heartworm (or both), and many of the females are pregnant. We had 30 animals in our anatomy lab, and I think one out of those 30 was fixed.

After one semester, we've already had several discussions on the ethics of how we use animals at school. It's certainly not a black and white topic...


Well isn't that just wonderful. You do some surgery, let them animal recover, and then kill them with some more surgery after they have recovered...:mad: :mad:
If you have another chance to talk to this Professor ( surgeon) again, could you please tell him that I and alot of other dog owners think he should be ashamed of what his school is doing. Since it is one of only 2 schools in the entire US that are still using dogs to experiment on , out of all the medical schools , obviously most other schools have come to the conclusion that there are much better ways of doing this without experimenting on dogs.

By the way, I hear that this school is dropping this practice after this year, so obviously even they realize that it is indefencable.

[StealthDog]

No no, I'm in vet school, not med school! We're learning procedures we will actually *use*, unlike the med schools where they are learning about physiology on a species they won't even be licensed to practice on. I definitely don't agree with Wisconsin's med school's program.

[ToscasMom]

This just makes me plain old sick.

[misticaleclipse]

I'm sure I'm going to be the evil one here, but I don't think what LSU is doing is wrong. Those dogs are taken into the vet school, treated very lovingly by students, properly anesthetized so students can do their surgeries & are never woken up. It's a painless end for an animal that had no where to go & was going to die anyways.

While some of you I guess don't mind that your animal will be the first real live dog your newly graduated vet does a procedure on, many others prefer that a vet have more than textbook & simulated experience.

As for the practice of stealing animals or breeding animals strictly for science, well, that's a whole other cup of tea & I am definitely against it. But as far as I know, vet schools don't take in animals from puppy mills/bybs or from suspicious characters offering a litter of puppies hidden underneath a long black trench coat.



Hmmm. In a shelter when a dogs time is up they are humainly (we can hope) put to sleep.

In this situation you are saying they "lovingly" treat these animals and then put them to sleep, cut them up like they are a piece or garbage and then kill them.

Lets take a human being and say the same story shall we?
Lets say they are going to be taken off life within the next 24 hours and just cut them up so we can learn what tools we need to use before we take them off like support.

At least with the human they are dying, but it indicates these dogs are healthy.

Lets also add on the fact the the humiane socity/pound might not be trying as hard to adopt these pets because they know they will get cash from this facility? They would not have a high desire to help rescues either would they?

Lets also take a look at who this is supposed to benefit. Uh
us as dog owners, do you realy think that good dog owners
would want to go to a vet who did this while in training?
Come to think of it I might ask my vet some hard questions after reading this, because I would never support such a cold hearted person who could do this.

This is not only unecessary, it is sick.



No matter how much simulators & virtual reality programs gain in technology & whatnot, they are no comparison to actually doing the procedure on a real animal with a real cardiovascualar & respiratory systems & complete with real organs.

Then why are there ony two left that are still working on live animals?? Why, well because they use the computer programs, and then watch an operation, and then assist before they do it themselves