GSD biting

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi

I am sorry for I posted my questions in the introduction section.

Yesterday I tried with dragging my dog with the leash when he do not listen to the ‘sit’ and ‘stay’ command. He did listen to me very fine, but the next time when I tried to hold his leash he grabbed my hand. I tried a lot, but he just rest himself down on his back and try to avoid me taking hold of his lease. This problem also comes when I try to put on the chain. He don’t allow me to put on his chain, I praise him (like Good boy, Very Good boy) when he do the things that I expect, but suddenly when I praise him he starts biting me. As of this no one dares to put the leash on him nor dare to take him out for a walk. Also while I take him to walk, he jumps on the coming vehicle, or on the people those are walking around. I tried to stop him by ‘NO’ command, but in vain. He just stop for the while, but again when another vehicle comes on he again jumps over it.

He do listen to the trainer. I even tried with having the trainer with me and taking him to walk, but at that time he behaves very well. He listen to all the commands nor he jumps on the vehicles or the people around. That’s amazing!!! And once the trainer leaves then he is again with the old mischief’s.

These two problems viz. biting and jumping on the vehicles seems to be dangerous to me. How can I get rid of these problems.

Thanks
-Nilesh

[Renee750il]

Don't worry too much about where you originally posted the thread. We can actually move it if we really need to - no big deal!

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi
Thats really great.

As per yesterday, I have started with the first point the make him roll over I gently, but firmly, press the dog into a laying position, then roll it over on its back, holding it there for a few seconds with my hand on its chest. But he tries to catch my hand, and was never in a still position. I thought that this is the first time he is going through the procedure… so I repeated the procedure but when I do the same again, he became more wilder than previous. After doing the following, he gets up and starts biting over more hard… is this behavior of his expected for first few days or does he require some additional work to be done?

Is it suitable to put the muzzle over to go with this problem? I don’t know if my question is correct or not, because I want my GSD to get rid of biting problem and this is the first pet we are having!!! We all love him very much, but just want to get rid of some problems.

Thanks
-Nilesh

[Renee750il]

He's resisting submission. This is one point you can't give in on; if you do, you'll never get control of him. You've just got to make him submit every time he starts the biting. Do it again and again until he does what you want him to do. It will be something you'll need to do periodically throughout his life, even after you've got control and it will just be a reminder and reinforcement.

I don't know why I haven't asked this before: has he been neutered? If not, it might very well help with this dominance problem.

He's at the age now where he's roughly the equivalent of a human teenager - hormones raging, rebellious and hard to handle. And, right now, he knows you're afraid of his teeth! It may be painful, but you're going to have to enduresome nips in this process in order to succeed in the end. You must also use a stern voice, but not a loud voice. A loud voice will only excite him, and any kind of squealling noise or yelping will excite his natural prey drive and make him bite more. It will also erode your dominance training. So, no yelping when it hurts, no jerking your hands back, just dive in and let him know you're the boss and he's going to stop.

Yes, it sounds easier than it is, but it's really not awfully difficult. You'll get it done if you keep at it.

Keep us posted.

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi
Yes you are perfectly right, he is not been neutered till yet. I was to ask this questions, because I have seen some symptoms about the same (like erection). oh, can this also be the problem?

Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks
-Nilesh

[Renee750il]

That can be a real contributing factor to your problem. You might want to address that very soon. It won't magically cure the dominance problem, but it should certainly help.

[soccerwoofer]

Renee's right, you should try talking to him in a stern voice when he bites. If he starts hurting you and you really really really want him to get off of you it's going to brake your hand, you should spank him off of you with your other hand. Maybe he's well-behaved in front of your trainer because of something your trainer does, you should watch your trainer the next time they visit and memorise what they do.

[caesar]

I have this same problem (overwhelming puppy problem) but my dog and I are working through it. My 1/2 GSD/1/2 husky will grab my hand when I am trying to put on his leash for a walk. What I do is tell him a stern, overwhelming NO! and then try it again. If he does it again, I do the same thing. If he keeps doing it, I will make him rollover on his stomach. If he still is trying to grab my hand, then I discipline, and ignore him for at least a half hour (he goes without a walk). I have neutered my dog and he still has this problem, so just a warning that neutering may not solve all your problems. What is interesting in my case, is that my dog, Caesar, has complete respect for my husband (kind of like your trainer). But, I have learned this is because my husband does not let our dog get away with anything, and our dog knows this. I am sometimes too soft, and so I think Caesar knows that he can push things farther with me. Perhaps your dog knows that the trainer means business and will not put up with any antics, where with you, he thinks it's playtime. My dog will obey a command to "sit" also and then seconds later try to grab my hand again.

I have been reading the dog training book by the Monks of New Skete called "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend." It was recommended to me here on this forum and I highly believe it to be one of the best books I have ever read. By understanding how to communicate with your dog, when to discipline, how to discipline, and how to train your dog, I believe I have come further with my dog in the last week that in the 2 months before that. One thing that the Monks suggest is when you say NO to your dog you should be overdramatic. It should come out as a loud, resounding, I mean it, NO. The Monks also suggest that when you are disciplining your dog to talk to him. Say NO, and then while your are disciplining tell him why he is a bad dog... I know it sounds silly but today when my dog was misbehaving and I could not get him anchored to discipline him, I just knelt down to his level, made eye contact, and started telling him that I was really angry with him because he ran off and that he was a really bad dog, and that I was hurt by his behavior and on and on. While I was talking to him, he dropped his eye contact, and then I put him on his stomach all the while still talking to him about what a bad dog he was. While he was in this submissive position, he did not once try to grab my hand. We then got up and I put him in the garage and ignored him for half an hour. He has been listening to me beautifully, and has not grabbed or nipped me yet (until probably tomorrow!).

Hope some of this helps...
Ange

[caesar]

One more thing...
I think it is very important that you do NOT give up on your dog until you have shown him who is boss. I just read your last thread where everyone is scared of him and no one will touch him except two people. If you try to put his leash on him and he bites you hard, I think you really need to keep at it until you have put the leash on him without him biting you. This might take some discipline. Like I said, my dog does the EXACT same thing, and I spend anywhere from 10 minutes every morning correcting this problem. My dog is also very mouthy when doing anything. You have to have major patience with these guys, but it is worth it! The point is, don't let him get what he wants until he obeys you. If he really likes his walks, then he shouldn't get to go until he lets you put the leash on him without biting. When I am playing with Caesar, I also like to put a toy or bone in his mouth if he starts biting too hard so that he knows biting is okay on a toy or bone but NOT my hand! :)

[Brattina88]

I'm -er- hesitant at suggesting this because... well, I'll spare you the long story... At the shelter as one of the last resorts (we really don't like using "force" methods esp. bcz of their unknown backgrounds) we use halti head halters, not for walking, but for biting. It sort of follows what the others are saying, you can't give in to him! He needs to learn to submit to you and this may help as an alternative to a full out muzzle, and this may teach him instead of fully restraining his mouth to where he has no choice but not to bite. The halti closes the dogs mouth when pulled taught. So it be like this; correcting him -"No" and if he does not stop make him submit to you and pull his jaws closed with the halti (with your free hand?)

Neutering him will help, but it won't fix the behaiviors he's already learned...

~With the spanking thing, its hard to say without knowing your dog personally, but I'd like to warn you that if you have a dog that thinks he is higher than you and you spank him, he could very well turn on you if you know what I mean. :( I'm not sugesting that he will, just wanted to warn ya ;) Bcz its happened

[Renee750il]

Caesar, I'm glad to hear of your success with the Monks of New Skete. It's amazing, too, how well talking to them works, but in order for it to work, you have to begin achieving dominance, just as you did. Well done!

Brattina's right about the spanking. It's like spanking kids. It works with some, but with others it just exacerbates the problem. A smack on the flank is similar to the way an adult dog or wolf will snap at the flanks of an adolescent to discipline it, but you'd better already have established your right as a dominant adult when you do it!

The Halti head halter sounds like a useful tool.

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi,

Thanks you all for your guidance... I am trying my best to make some improvement over his behavior. As said by Caesar I did the same yesterday, as he was biting me then I did the same procedure, that, I was telling him how bad he is. How I feel bad when he behaves such. The change in him was he continuously stared at me. Then he dropped down his eyes, he sat for about 2 to 3 minutes doing nothing, but just watching me and drop down his eye contact. But after some time passed he was as usual back to his behavior. I think regular practice might help me… but is the scene correct, or it will make some impression on him that I talk about his unwanted behavior.

And about neuter, I have gone through some threads giving good knowledge about it, but I also heard that by regular exercise he will not go fat, but is it that the possibility of his of getting lazy? Is the point that I understood is correct? Or I have mistaken somewhere?

Thanks
-Nilesh

[Bug]

this is kind of off topic, but I have a question regarding the rolling over thing. So when my dog starts to nip and bite, or whenever he is misbehaving, do I roll him over so he is lying on his back and rub his stomach? If not then what do I do once he is on his back? Because I have tried this when my dog bites, but this only seems to get him worked up even more.

[Renee750il]

Bug:

Don't rub his belly until he has completely submitted - lying completely still. Hold him there for a few seconds, count slowly to ten if you want. Only after he has been submissive does he get the reward of a belly rub. After that you can let him up and pet him. Don't reward him with food, since you don't want him to think this is just a trick to learn. If he tries to get up without submitting, hold him down more firmly. This is one you can't let him win. It won't destroy his confidence; it will actually be better for him to understand his position in the pack.

And don't worry - you're not off topic - you're exactly on the topic!

[Renee750il]

Hi,

Thanks you all for your guidance... I am trying my best to make some improvement over his behavior. As said by Caesar I did the same yesterday, as he was biting me then I did the same procedure, that, I was telling him how bad he is. How I feel bad when he behaves such. The change in him was he continuously stared at me. Then he dropped down his eyes, he sat for about 2 to 3 minutes doing nothing, but just watching me and drop down his eye contact. But after some time passed he was as usual back to his behavior. I think regular practice might help me? but is the scene correct, or it will make some impression on him that I talk about his unwanted behavior.

And about neuter, I have gone through some threads giving good knowledge about it, but I also heard that by regular exercise he will not go fat, but is it that the possibility of his of getting lazy? Is the point that I understood is correct? Or I have mistaken somewhere?

Thanks
-Nilesh


Sounds like you are making some excellent progress. When he drops eye contact with you it is a submissive gesture. Dogs show aggression and dominance by staring. Dropping the eyes says "I don't want to fight with you." Keep up the good work. You're right, though, you need to keep up this practice.

I'm glad you are talking to him. I've done that with all my dogs - and cats - and it's always worked for me.

All but two of my male dogs have been neutered and it's never made an appreciable difference in their activity level. My Mom's little Rat Terrier, Katie, is spayed and she never carries a spare ounce of fat and she's anything but lazy! I think, possibly, that the "lazy dog" pattern of behaviour in neutered and spayed dogs had more to do with the anesthesias that were used. Veterinary medicine has come a long way and the anesthesia that is used now is nothing like the stuff they used 20 years ago.

[caesar]

I have to clarify that we do not spank but use the discipline techniques provided by the Monks in their book. These techniques are supposed to be similar to what the Alpha dog uses. Also, we absolutely do not discipline unless our dog is hurting us with his biting, or being severely growly and aggressive. We have only had to discipline a few times.

Dalvi,
I think the drop in eye contact is excellent as Renee was saying that it is submissive. It is also a good sign that after a confrontation with you, the dog wants to be alone for a little while. Keep it up.

[soccerwoofer]

I'm -er- hesitant at suggesting this because... well, I'll spare you the long story... At the shelter as one of the last resorts (we really don't like using "force" methods esp. bcz of their unknown backgrounds) we use halti head halters, not for walking, but for biting. It sort of follows what the others are saying, you can't give in to him! He needs to learn to submit to you and this may help as an alternative to a full out muzzle, and this may teach him instead of fully restraining his mouth to where he has no choice but not to bite. The halti closes the dogs mouth when pulled taught. So it be like this; correcting him -"No" and if he does not stop make him submit to you and pull his jaws closed with the halti (with your free hand?)

Neutering him will help, but it won't fix the behaiviors he's already learned...

~With the spanking thing, its hard to say without knowing your dog personally, but I'd like to warn you that if you have a dog that thinks he is higher than you and you spank him, he could very well turn on you if you know what I mean. :( I'm not sugesting that he will, just wanted to warn ya ;) Bcz its happened


Oh... ok I'll try something else

[DJ Lucid]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, and the main reason I've joined is because I have similiar problems with my 14 month old male collie X spaniel - and I'm hoping that somebody will be able to give me some advise. He is such a lovely dog, but very lively. I don't really have much of a problem with him until we are at our training class, when his behaviour is so out of character. I think that he gets nervous with all of the other dogs and people around him, and where he's on his lead he feels that he can't escape so he lashes out. He has never bitten another dog or person, but he does pull towards them with his teeth showing. He seems to get very stressed out and there have been times when he's turned to me and bitten my clothes. Also sometimes, we have to do a lot of waiting around at the class and he seems to get bored and will try to get me to give him a treat by jumping up at me and biting my sleeves.

I've been told a few different things that I can do involving punishment, like the 'alpha' roll, growling at him, or shaking a tin at him. I've found that this works when the trainers do this but not when I do it. Whenever I've tried the alpha roll at the training class he has always bitten my hands, and it's such a struggle for me to keep him on the floor. I've read that this kind of punishment can result in the dog behaving aggressively as a reaction towards you.

I've recently been reading about positive reinforcement training and I feel that this is the best way my dog learns, but I have no idea how to apply this to his behaviour at the training class. The trainers always tell me to show him who's in charge, but I'm quite a gentle person and I'm not very strong, so I feel that he knows this and doesn't see me as a threat. I was wondering if anybody knows any ways of using positive reinforcement in this situation, or using it to help him respect/listen to me when I need him to behave himself.

Thanks for any advise you can give me.

[Renee750il]

You've got to take the alpha role in his life. You can't expect him to obey you at anything until he sees you as the "head of the pack." Positive reinforcement will only be a means he uses to manipulate you until you succeed. You have to earn your dog's respect, you can't bribe it.

The "alpha roll" (never actually heard it given a name, I've just used it since I was a kid and realized that it was part of canine behaviour) is not punishment. The only thing about it, though, is you must persist until you succeed. If you don't, you have abdicated all authority with your dog and your dog now owns you.
Keep working with the alpha roll. Also, never allow your dog to make you drop your eyes. You have to meet your dog halfway, though, by communicating in ways that make sense to him, so think about how dogs and wolves act and react amongst themselves and take your cues from that.

[DJ Lucid]

Thanks for the reply. I'll try the 'roll' again when he's like it next and will try out the talking to him as Caesar suggested. So is positive reinforcement only to be used when training him commands like sit, heel, etc. ? This is the way that we train him and it works really well as he learns quickly. I thought I'd read that you could apply it to everything, but I have found that at training if I try to stop him jumping up at me or biting my sleeves by offering a treat to make him sit, then he'll take the treat and then jump up at me for more. So I guess it would be better to use the 'roll', but he does bite my hands and arms and try his hardest to twist out of my grip. Do I just leave my hands holding him down and ignore the biting to show him that I'm not bothered? Thanks again.

[Renee750il]

Yep, don't let him get the best of you. You can tell him "NO," and if necessary, even use your other hand to close his mouth and hold it shut until he gives up.

If you try to dissuade him from things you don't want him to do by offering a treat, even if it's in exchange for sitting, he just thinks you're pleased with the behaviour and you've reinforced that behavior - exactly the opposite effect from what you're trying to accomplish.

Serena's mentioned the technique of teaching dogs that nothing in life is free (NILF training), where your dog must do something, whether it's sit, or lay down, or give his paw (a good thing in your case, as that is a gesture of submission) before he gets his food, petting, play time, or anything else he enjoys. This could be something to add that will help you guide your dog's behavior into the proper channels and enable him to be a happy, well adjusted companion to you.

The thing that makes it all easier is if you can learn to think like a dog. If you can do that, you'll be able to understand what he will understand and communicate effectively with him.

[Renee750il]

I've never personally held the throat, only used my hand on the chest, and I've never had to physically force a dog to give me its belly, but I can see that Serena has a very valid point here. Using physical force on a dog can be a risky gambit, and it is counter-productive to what you're trying to accomplish, which is affirming your position as the leader for your dog, not challenging him for the position. From your earlier posts, though, it sounds like you're making good progress and not using physical force. You should be able to accomplish your goal without ever resorting to violent actions.

[MEG126]

i was reading over this thread and some parts stuck out to me from my own experiences...the responses were pretty early on, but i thought maybe my experience could be of help...

Renee:
If you try to dissuade him from things you don't want him to do by offering a treat, even if it's in exchange for sitting, he just thinks you're pleased with the behaviour and you've reinforced that behavior - exactly the opposite effect from what you're trying to accomplish.

this happened with my golden, penny. whenever we'd go out on walks, she'd jump all over us, snipping, etc., so my mom started carrying treats with her on walks, and would use them to bribe penny to stop. as soon as penny saw the treat (or eventually after she caught on, once my mom started reaching for her pocket where the treats were kept) she'd stop and sit down. but once she'd eaten the treat, she'd start the whole jumping routine all over again, so it just became a trick for her. we stopped carrying treats with us and walked her in the field behind our house instead of the neighborhood, and now she's great on walks, no more jumping!! :)

next...

caesar
What is interesting in my case, is that my dog, Caesar, has complete respect for my husband (kind of like your trainer). But, I have learned this is because my husband does not let our dog get away with anything, and our dog knows this. I am sometimes too soft, and so I think Caesar knows that he can push things farther with me. Perhaps your dog knows that the trainer means business and will not put up with any antics, where with you, he thinks it's playtime.

after we had to put our first dog to sleep, we knew we wanted another dog, so we thought we would adopt a grown dog from the SPCA or newspaper ads so we wouldn't have to go through the whole training process. there was a family who had three labs (a black one, a yellow one, and a chocolate one, my mom called them neopolitan labs, one of each flavor!!) who had just moved into a new house that was really close to the interstate, and they didn't want to have to invest in a fence to prevent their dogs from running away and getting hit by cars, so they were giving them away to approved families. we thought this was great, so we went and saw the dogs, the only one left was a yellow lab, scotch (4yrs old), and we liked him and ended up taking him home with us. we noticed, however, at the owner's home that he didn't listen to anybody except the father of the house, but we just assumed it was because he had a whole new territory to explore and was more interested in his new surroundings. we took him home and he seemed to like it a lot. since it was during the summer, when i woke up in the mornings, my parents would be at work, so i was home alone and one morning i got up and went into our living room and scotch was up on the couch (no dogs on the furniture in our house!!). i told him "scotch, down" and used my arm to point him down on the floor and he growled at me and since i didn't really know this dog, i had no idea of his past i didn't know how far he would go, and since i was at home alone i didn't want to risk it, so i left him be. (i know that wasn't a great move in terms of training... but given the circumstances...). later that week we were playing fetch with scotch and our neighbors in the field between our house and our neighbors and scotch had gotten the ball and one of the little boys (i think he was like 7 at the time) tried to get the ball out of his mouth and scotch bit him on the face. now to sum up this story (sorry didn't think it was going to be this long!!!) we figured out that he would only listen to dominant male figures. so i'm guessing with the couch incident he was trying to secure his place in the pecking order, but we continued to see that he wouldn't listen to my mom and i, only to my dad and bro; the same in the previous owners. so yea i think that could be why your dog was listening to the trainer/husband in your situations... happenned to us too!! so we ended up giving him back to his other owners, and we decided the best route was to start all over again and we got penny!! lol

sorry that story ended up being so long, but i hope it showed the whole dominance issue particularly...

[opokki]

For those of you that use training methods other than positive reinforcement how do you reward the dogs for good behavior?

I think the NILF training program is a great way to establish leadership. I've used it to train my dog since she was a puppy and its been very helpful with the aggressive toy poodle I adopted almost 2yrs ago. I've also used positive reinforcement in training her but I've never thought of it as bribing her :confused:. Done incorrectly I suppose it could be considered bribing though.

[Renee750il]

Dogs have more complex reasoning that most people give them credit for. One method isn't going to work for everything. I use a combination of things, depending on the circumstance and what I'm trying to accomplish.

They get lots of positive reinforcement when they've done something good, especially if I haven't had to tell them to do it. They must sit and show me that they have good manners before they eat or receive a treat. They always get fed, treated or petted in the dominant order, which right now is according to age (and I don't intend to allow that to be open to challenge - and I AM the boss); Bimmer first, then Shiva, then Kharma. And I never feed them until after Charlie and I have eaten. Ever.

I often share the "last bite" of my food with them. This is a powerful tool for bonding and expressing dominance. The alpha personality eats first (that's me), then shares with the pack, underscoring the position as provider and bonding as a family.

The worst punishment in the world for my dogs is my displeasure, but the reason it's so awful for them is because they set such a value on pleasing me. The worst thing I've ever had to do to any of them was cutting a switch and flicking Shiva's flanks when she didn't come when I called her and I had to go get her. Now all I have to say is "Shiva, don't make me get the switch!" Just like a kid. (groan) When I have to scold, they roll over and present their bellies to me (even Kharma, who won't back down from anything or anyone), staying in that position until I tell them they can get up. Then it's time to talk to them, and afterwards reassure them that I love them.
And of course, I talk to them. They want to be good, and they want to do things that make me happy, so they listen. We have quite a few heart-heart, nose-to-muzzle conversations.

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi
These days I was working on my puppy. I got a good response from him. But there are still some problems that I am not able to get rid off.

1. Whenever I go to him in the morning I just start jumping on me. I tried saying “NO” but that didn’t help me. This is the same scene when I come back from my office.

2. When I try to put the collar, at that moment he tries to grab my hand. He don’t allow to put on the collar. After a long time I have to get it on. I tried to say “NO” here also but it didn’t work.

3. When we all the members in our family are sitting together, he comes over and just starts jumping on all of us. We thought that he is doing so to get our attention towards him, but we also tried talking with him when we are together, but didn’t help. We tried saying “SIT” and the “STAY” command, but he starts barking a lot, then starts jumping on and biting. I just put my knee in front, but the next time he grabs my leg!!!

How can I get rid of these problems…

Thanks
-Nilesh

[Renee750il]

Well, Nilesh,

It sounds like you've made quite a bit of progress with your pup and have bonded very strongly. He's obviously thrilled to see you in the morning and when you come home.

The German Shepherd is a very loyal, attached dog and his favorite bed is always going to be near you. Your post leads me to believe he is sleeping somewhere removed from you, which is okay, and he will accept it, but he is going to be thrilled and excited every morning when you appear.

He's still an exciteable boy, but will calm down some as he matures. In the meantime, it will help to remember that loud, excited voices are going to excite him more. You want to use a calm, soft voice when you need to calm him down, and always - only one person at a time talking to him! More than one person talking to him is going to confuse him and he's going to get more and more agitated.

His behaviour with the collar is also most likely excitement. Again, a calm voice and firm, but not loud, Sit command, then stroke him a bit to settle him. You may have to spend some time with this, and may even have to go back to rolling him over until he calms down.

Get some toys, a tug rope, tennis balls, etc., and when he bounds into the room to play and bounce on you and your family, use the toys to play with him. At this age he's just overflowing with energy, and coupled with the German Shepherd's desire to interact with his people, it can be a bit overwhelming.

My German Shepherds never fell for the knee trick, either. They decided it was part of the game and made great sport of avoiding my knee and being able to lick me in the face or pull my hair.

[boxerdog44]

How old is your gsd , focus training , the dog is avoiding you , does what the trainer says,I wouldnt role him on his back and hold him this is challanging to the dog and does not do anything , you need to have your dog focus to you

[DanL]

did you look at the date of that thread? It's over 3 years old. Hopefully he's worked past that issue with his dog by now.

[lizzybeth727]

wow, where did this even COME from??

[Zoom]

I think this qualifies as an OFT...