5 year old girl killed by Pit Bull

[suzanne118]

heres the full story

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/02012007/140/family-s-grief-pit-bull-kills-girl.html


So sad But why leave a child with a dog? and any dog you should not leave a child alone with!!!! Not even a cavalier

[iamawesum69420]

I agree. No dog should be left alone with a child, for the safety of both of them.

[squirtsmom]

OMG. Not another pitbull story about irresponsible owners. Makes me sick.

[suzanne118]

Its ALWAYS THE OWNERS

[Bobsk8]

Well they are sure going to make an example and punish the owner. The girl is dead, and the most the owner gets is 6 months in jail.....:mad:

That sure makes a statement about the theory that punishing the owners will solve the problem....

[bubbatd]

Soooooooooo sad !!!

[Buddy'sParents]

Terribly sad. :( Poor girl.

Perhaps I missed it, but where did it say that the child was left alone?

[suzanne118]

It says on the news here that she was left alone with the dog and uncle who was not in the same room and the parents went out for new years eve.

[Buddy'sParents]

The news article you posted said she was with her grandmother...

Ellie was staying with her grandmother while her father and mother, named locally as Lyndsay, were out celebrating New Year.

The dog attacked the youngster at around 4.30am. Mrs Simpson, 46, was bitten as she tried to drag it away.

[suzanne118]

opps srry i mean gradmother

[chinchow]

I have a hard time believing the dog attacked the child while it was sleeping, not moving. Unless there is something wrong with this dog, I have a feeling this was probably provoked.

This is sad that this happened. But, once again, this is CONFIRMATION that BSL does NOT work. A banned breed, in the place where it was banned...that is the owner's fault. Not the dog's. It shouldn't have been there, even though it could've happened with any dog, that right there alone (regardless of attack) kills that animal.

What a sad world we live in.

[Bobsk8]

I have a hard time believing the dog attacked the child while it was sleeping, not moving. Unless there is something wrong with this dog, I have a feeling this was probably provoked.

This is sad that this happened. But, once again, this is CONFIRMATION that BSL does NOT work. A banned breed, in the place where it was banned...that is the owner's fault. Not the dog's. It shouldn't have been there, even though it could've happened with any dog, that right there alone (regardless of attack) kills that animal.

What a sad world we live in.

Oh, here we go again. Out comes the blame game, it was such a sweet dog until it snapped and killed somebody, demonize the victim by blaming on them, Pit Bull defence.. The same Mantra, over and over , again...... God, I get sick of hearing this garbage..:mad: :mad: What crud.....

[casablanca1]

Police confirmed the dog had been brought to their attention twice.
The first was after it attacked another dog.

I guess it didn't get the memo about dog-aggression not being the same as human-aggression.

[Bobsk8]

Police confirmed the dog had been brought to their attention twice.
The first was after it attacked another dog.

I guess it didn't get the memo about dog-aggression not being the same as human-aggression.

And I guess the police didn't ask the owner if he was a reponsible owner, since quite a few people on this forum believe that is all that is necessary to stop this from happening.

[darkchild16]

Oh, here we go again. Out comes the blame game, it was such a sweet dog until it snapped and killed somebody, demonize the victim by blaming on them, Pit Bull defence.. The same Mantra, over and over , again...... God, I get sick of hearing this garbage..:mad: :mad: What crud.....

And I guess the police didn't ask the owner if he was a reponsible owner, since quite a few people on this forum believe that is all that is necessary to stop this from happening.

ok ill bite on this one. What if you were told you had to get rid of smokey because of her breeds and because all dogs of said breeds were evil what would you feel? I suspect the same way us pit bull owners feel. Tytus i would trust alone with a kid because all he would do is try and play and sleep BUT i have a responsibility to him as his owner to not put him in that situation.
I also trust walker completly but all trust aside because i am a responsible owner he is not around kids without my supervision. Any responsible dog owner doesnt leave a dog alone with a child no matter what. It is down to being responsible and yet again i know of kids who have been attacked by labs and hunting dogs around here then pits and pits are one of the most popular dogs in my area but the people here are responsible about their dogs because these are tresured hunting dogs. So dont tell me its cuz they are jsut pits that sir is complete BULLS*IT!

[Buddy'sParents]

God, I get sick of hearing this garbage..:mad: :mad: What crud.....

Then I suggest not participating in such threads that spew such "garbage."

[J's crew]

Then I suggest not participating in such threads that spew such "garbage."

Much agreed! Geeezzz.............

[darkchild16]

and im sorry but im geussing since you havent had a dog for years you tended to stay out of it all well alots changed in that time and maybe you should wait till you become more in touch with the dog world these days. You sound like you think you are an expert that knows it all but im sorry you are not. You need to learn as much as you can you can never know everything.

[Bobsk8]

Then I suggest not participating in such threads that spew such "garbage."

It is just frustrating to read the same excuses in each of the cases.

1. The press got it wrong, it wan't a Pit Bull ( couldn't do that on this one because it was confirmed by the police that it was.

2, The Victim must have done something to provoke it..... The remark about the 6 year old victim not being asleep, but maybe she moved or had the audacity to roll over while she was sleeping , and that must have provoked the nice dog. This is an especially often used type of excuse and to me it's like blaming rapes on the victim, when no other excuse can be fabricated..

3. The dog shouldn't have been left alone with the victim.. Well hello, when a dog is allowed in a home with other people living there, the dog usually can't be followed around and constantly monitored 24/7 to make sure it doesn't attack one of the people in the home. Having to live like that sounds more like your living wih a Tiger or a leopard as opposed to a dog.

I think that making non-sensical statements like these, as an excuse for what happened, deserves some sort of response challenging them, if for no other reason than to keep the focus on the animal that caused the tragedy and off blaming the victim or the press..... That is why I post in these threads.

[Buddy'sParents]

Bob, I refuse to argue with you about "these threads." If you find them frustrating then do not participate in them. It's as simple as that.

[Bobsk8]

Bob, I refuse to argue with you about "these threads." If you find them frustrating then do not participate in them. It's as simple as that.

And I am not going to argue with you about it either, and I will continue to do what I feel is right. ;)

[darkchild16]

maybe you should learn more about our situation before you butt in. plain and simple.

[Bobsk8]

maybe you should learn more about our situation before you butt in. plain and simple.

Is posting on these forums "butting in" , and if so how?

And what is your "situation"?

[darkchild16]

trying to get the word out about our bred and how our breed is treated. and no posting isnt but going in a thread everytime a pit one is posted to cause trouble and tell us its our breed is

[Bobsk8]

trying to get the word out about our bred and how our breed is treated. and no posting isnt but going in a thread everytime a pit one is posted to cause trouble and tell us its our breed is

What about the people that go into a thread where a death or maiming is reported, such as this one, and posting that it must have been something the victim did ( often a small child) that caused the trajedy. Is that OK, as far as you are concerned?

[darkchild16]

most children who get attacked do actully do something i know that a shock :rolleyes: like when my sister was watching my great and her child almost got bit she went up to a sleeping dog and tried to pet him. that is a irresponsible person not dog. the dog in taht case is not used to being touched when he is asleep therefore she shouldnt have let the child alone with the dog. kids at that age dont usually know how to act around a dog so they should not be left alone with one. I wasnt left alone withmy own dog when i was 5 and he was mine. Even though i knew my stuff it is not safe or right kids dont always if ever think before they act. I have a feeling if you left smokey alone with a kid and the kid ticked her off she owuld do something it is a dogs nature to protect its self.

[Amstaffer]

Well they are sure going to make an example and punish the owner. The girl is dead, and the most the owner gets is 6 months in jail.....:mad:

That sure makes a statement about the theory that punishing the owners will solve the problem....

All it says is that they don't punish the guilty with enough time :(

Nice try to lynch the innocent! Come on boys, grab your torches and pitch forks will get that monster :rolleyes:

[casablanca1]

trying to get the word out about our bred and how our breed is treated. and no posting isnt but going in a thread everytime a pit one is posted to cause trouble and tell us its our breed is

Don't be silly. This is a discussion forum. It's inappropriate to tell someone to to butt out simply because you think their opinions will somehow harm your argument. Hint: if the mere existence of a differing opinion will harm your cause, your cause is pretty lame.

[darkchild16]

no but if he can pose his arguement respectfully it would be a great addition but i dont see the respect all i see is him telling us its all the dogs fault and frankly if you are goign to post in a thread i think it should be useful ot jsut its the dogs fault and they all should be killed.

[Amstaffer]

I think that making non-sensical statements like these, as an excuse for what happened, deserves some sort of response challenging them, That is why I post in these threads.

Non-sensical...are you serious? Your desire to wipe out thousands and thousands of great dogs just because a very very very few attack each year is the poster child statement of illogical!

All the abuse that the pit bull goes through every year (watch Animal Planet?)
it is truely amazing they don't kill more often.

I would love to know your demographics so I could examine some of the stereotypes that would apply to you! Are you German by chance? Related to anyone in the Klan? You live in the south so you must be...... See what I mean? Stereotypes suck...are some Germans Nazi lovers sure, are the vast majority wonderful people...yep.

The stereotype makes it easier for the human mind to line up and label everything in their life but a lot of wonderful beings can pay a hefty price for your mental short cuts.

[darkchild16]

:hail::hail: that was great.

[Buddy'sParents]

I find that people have opinions on things even if they do not have any personal experience regardng the topic. This leads to a misconstrued.. well, everything.

The media sensationalizing pit bulls and the like is NOT experierence, nor knowledge of the breed.

It takes an open mind to be educated and it's painfully obvious that not all minds are open when it comes to "pit bull terrier type dogs."

[DemitriousK]

Lets keep to discussing the topic without being at each others throats, please.

[~Jessie~]

I have 3 of the nicest chihuahuas that you would ever meet. Would I leave them alone with a child? No. I would not leave any dog alone with a child. If my dog were to attack a child, it would be my fault for putting them both in that situation. It doesn't matter if that dog is a chihuahua, a golden retriever, or a pitbull. Being a responsible owner means not putting your dog in a situation like this. I've seen some of the sweetest dogs provoked... and they will show teeth, growl, and lunge.

I can't imagine ever blaming an entire breed... I've truthfully never met a mean pitbull. Pitbulls are not a naturally aggressive breed... the want and need to kill is not inbreed into them. Irresponsible ownership is the problem.

[chinchow]

Oh, here we go again. Out comes the blame game, it was such a sweet dog until it snapped and killed somebody, demonize the victim by blaming on them, Pit Bull defence.. The same Mantra, over and over , again...... God, I get sick of hearing this garbage..:mad: :mad: What crud.....

Yes, it's SO TERRIBLE when SOMEONE stands up for what is right isn't it?

God help you if Smokey were to attack someone.
BUT OH WAIT!!! It's not in the breed description, right? Because she's a mix that no one can identify? So it will NEVER HAPPEN.

YOU NEED to understand that blame is NOT to one being. Dogs DO NOT just attack because they feel like being carefree. There are ALWAYS reasons, whether they are overlooked (which is usually the case) or not.

You are close-minded, and it seems I'm not the only one who sees that on this board. Maybe you need to get out of your "all dogs are perfect but pit bulls" bubble, and into the real world. That mentality doesn't work. But you turn your head to FACTS every single time.
I've given up on any form of communicating the truth to you, because you don't care. As long as YOU feel right about something, it's as is.





This case is not extensive by any means. The owner broke the law before, the dog was never taken from him when he was caught. What does that tell you? They must not care over there very much.
And this says NOTHING about human and dog aggression being the same thing. The two have not been linked. You are assuming way too much on that one. You might want to do a lot of reading on those two subjects.

[MelissaCato]

"BUT OH WAIT!!! It's not in the breed description, right? Because she's a mix that no one can identify? So it will NEVER HAPPEN."

.. if it's not a known breed or is a mix.... it's labeled a pit bull. This is how they got their bad rep. usually the only publically viewed cases with an image is the pit bull. Sad, but true.

http://www.pitbullproject.ca/video.htm Viewer Disgression Advised

[pancho]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.

[dr2little]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.

:hail: :hail: :hail: Now THIS I agree with.

[pancho]

:hail: :hail: :hail: Now THIS I agree with.

THANKS

[MelissaCato]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.


I disagree. It's the owners fault.

[Road dog]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.

No it's not. Dogs are NOT people, they do not have the same mental processes as us. Dogs have no comprehension of laws, dogs have no comprehension of what is good and bad behavior beond what we TEACH them.

If a dog attacks a person it is because the OWNER did something wrong. It could have been anything. Using agressive training tactics that made the dog fearful. Not properly socializing the dog. Owning a dog with known behavioral issues and not addressing them. Playing rough with the dog and teaching the dog it's ok to bite at people. Leaving a child alone with a dog. This list could go on and on and on...

Dogs are shaped by the enviornments they grow and live in. A dog does not suddenly decide "I don't like that son of a b****, I think I'll go kick his ass." There is always something more.


And by the way... I spend lots of time around GSD's, Pit bulls and other bully breeds, Rotties, etc.... I have been bitten by 2 dogs in my entire life. Ready? One was a Chihuahua and one was a Pomeranian. Go figure...

[dr2little]

No it's not. Dogs are NOT people, they do not have the same mental processes as us. Dogs have no comprehension of laws, dogs have no comprehension of what is good and bad behavior beond what we TEACH them.

If a dog attacks a person it is because the OWNER did something wrong. It could have been anything. Using agressive training tactics that made the dog fearful. Not properly socializing the dog. Owning a dog with known behavioral issues and not addressing them. Playing rough with the dog and teaching the dog it's ok to bite at people. Leaving a child alone with a dog. This list could go on and on and on...

Dogs are shaped by the enviornments they grow and live in. A dog does not suddenly decide "I don't like that son of a b****, I think I'll go kick his ass." There is always something more.

No one is saying that dogs are human but you can't seriously think that a dog that kills a child is NORMAL. We're not talking about jumping up, peeing on the carpet, territorial aggression or protection aggression here...we're talking about KILLING A HUMAN BEING.

I DO bite investigation. There is only one of bite grade level higher than killing (if you can imagine:mad: ) and that's ingesting flesh. Something was seriously wrong with that dog that can not be chalked up to complacent owners.

This is again going to turn into another breed bashing thread...IT SHOULD NOT!

Yes people who leave dogs unattended with small children are complete idiots but this was no NORMAL dog!!!! The breed is only relevant due to the power to carry out a killing. Any large powerful NUTCASE of a dog with drive, and I suspect drift, could do the same thing.

[tinksmama]

where's the Balance? i'm sorry, but Bob has a point,however...bluntly...put!
Pitbull breeds are in the news more often, b/c they have a problem with many of these dogs! Now, I've known a few sweeties myself, but as he mentioned ,owning a dog who requires 24/7 supervison is more like having a wild tiger around,not a domesticated animal.
And, I was sort of thinking the same thing to a number of posts here, this little girl DIED. It's not the first,or last time we're going to see this. I don't know what the answer is- I don't pretend to know. But i do know that an animal,a breed of animal,or a type of animal who is capable of such destruction deserves more scrutiny than a simple" it must be a bad owner" response.
I realize all dogs have this capability. I also realize that all dogs don't have issues like this as a breed. BUT- All dogs are not the same- breed,temperament, natural inclinations, they are all factors. Just b/c you may love a breed, doesn't make it a safe and wonderful choice for the rest of us.I know many of you love your pit breeds, but I'm also a parent, and I see in this story the death of a small child. By a pitbull. I know they aren't all demons, but there IS a problem. All the "Oh,how sads" really should be directed at the thought of a child being mauled to death.

[Dani]

Tragic, an innocent little girl :(

That's what should matter.

[tinksmama]

DR2... very well said, as usual....

[iamawesum69420]

There is a difference in 24/7 surveillance and merely keeping an eye on a dog when it is in the same room as a child. Yes, it is tragic that a little girl had to die at the hands of a dog, but it is even more tragic when children die at the hands of other children. We hold the parents responsible in those cases, so why not hold the owner responsible when the dog gets out of control?

[Dizzy]

Pit Bulls are banned here for starters, so if the owner was going round claiming it was a pit bull - then you can imagine the type of person they would be...... In it for the hard man image.

Anyone else who has the balls to own a pit bull in the UK and cared for their own, and their dogs safety would be calling it a staffy cross.

Why a 5 year old was left with a large dog is questionable.

[Amstaffer]

It is very sad what happen to the girl...that goes without question.

The problem here is that some want to wipe out an entire breed because a very very few go bad because they are abuse and poorly raised!

What should be done? When someone dies, the dog pays with its life and the owner should do serious jail 10+ years. Add to that, people who have problems with the police should be dealt with the first or second time, this case is a classic example. The police knew this guy had a "troubled" dog and he was a poor owner but was allow to continue on his path to disaster.

Authorities often turn their heads to "dog" issues because they are "Just" animals. What they don't realize is that animal abuse often is a signal or red flag for Drugs, Domestic abuse, Child abuse, etc.... It is a proven fact that Most people involved in Dog Fighting are also involved in other felonies.



If we stop looking at dogs as just animals and start dealing with their treatment seriously maybe we can start avoiding problems before they can happen....however I realize that won't be popular with some here because it once again returns the blame on humans and not the Modern Boobie Man aka Pit Bull.

tinksmama Media Reports prove that Pit Bull attack more....I haven't seen you post before so I will respond to that. The Media will othen refer to any dog over 30lbs as a Pit Bull (I saw a picture of a yellow lab and underneath "Pit Bull") Also the word "Pit Bull" grabs attention and hysteria so it leads. Golden Ret attacks get page 12.

Also Tinksmama, something to think about, Why don't Pit Bulls ever attack people or other dogs at Dog shows? Intact males and all, Hmmmm

[StillandSilent]

Maybe the dog did fail to show warning signs, at least that the owners could pick up on. I had that happen to me once at work. A big shepard cross, who I had played with and interacted with many times, slammed me from behind, tore through my pants and put a large bite in my leg. If I hadn't been able to get the door in between us, he may have hurt me worse. He did have a reason for attacking me, in his mind, but no one else could figure out what possessed him to go after me.
Maybe this pit bull just snapped, same as the shepard. That makes the dog dangerous. This does not make the breed dangerous. I wouldn't have wanted every shepard or shepard mix in the shelter killed because this one hurt me.

[iamawesum69420]

That's exactly why a small child should never be left alone with a dog of any kind. You can just never say with 100% certainty that your dog isn't going to just snap one day. If you're an adult, you have a much greater chance of being able to protect yourself against the dog, or at least be able to get away from the dog. A child isn't going to stand a chance. The owner of the dog, or even the caretaker of the child should have been keeping a better eye on the dog and the child. The dog should have never been able to go into the room where the child was sleeping.

[ToscasMom]

Friends, honestly and truly, you will NEVER get society to adapt to dogs of any type or breed. Dogs are expected to adapt to society and not pose a danger to public safety. That goes for all dogs. It's an uncomfortable reality that will never change. People don't want to be "trained" to adapt to dogs, and it is especially unrealistic with regards to children, who may look suspiciously like prey to animal- aggressive dogs. Do you think that may be what is happening here with pit bulls and that this is why "animal aggressive" vs. "Human Aggressive" appear to look the same in so many eyes??? They often seem to attack small people? Having said that, I have a curious question. I wonder statistically how many pit bull and pit bull mix attacks are done by purebred pits vs. "mixes"? Does anybody know where I can find this answer in study by any chance?

[chinchow]

Tosca, you will probably never find the answer to the statistics you're wondeirng about. Breed misidentification comes to it's finest degree when bully breeds are involved. Most of these pit bulls may not be registered, some of them might not even be bully breeds at all. And with so many variations in the pit bull these days, you'll probably never find out.

[blue]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.

Agreed, but the owner still has a responsability for the dog, requardless of the breed.

[GSDluver4lyfe]

No it's not. Dogs are NOT people, they do not have the same mental processes as us. Dogs have no comprehension of laws, dogs have no comprehension of what is good and bad behavior beond what we TEACH them.

If a dog attacks a person it is because the OWNER did something wrong. It could have been anything. Using agressive training tactics that made the dog fearful. Not properly socializing the dog. Owning a dog with known behavioral issues and not addressing them. Playing rough with the dog and teaching the dog it's ok to bite at people. Leaving a child alone with a dog. This list could go on and on and on...

Dogs are shaped by the enviornments they grow and live in. A dog does not suddenly decide "I don't like that son of a b****, I think I'll go kick his ass." There is always something more.


And by the way... I spend lots of time around GSD's, Pit bulls and other bully breeds, Rotties, etc.... I have been bitten by 2 dogs in my entire life. Ready? One was a Chihuahua and one was a Pomeranian. Go figure...


Amen!!! :hail: Dogs are ANIMALS. No animal is EVER 100% predictable and it is the owners job to make sure their dog is under control at all times. For that one second they are left alone something terrible happens. Dogs follow insticts not morals.

[pancho]

Friends, honestly and truly, you will NEVER get society to adapt to dogs of any type or breed. Dogs are expected to adapt to society and not pose a danger to public safety. That goes for all dogs. It's an uncomfortable reality that will never change. People don't want to be "trained" to adapt to dogs, and it is especially unrealistic with regards to children, who may look suspiciously like prey to animal- aggressive dogs. Do you think that may be what is happening here with pit bulls and that this is why "animal aggressive" vs. "Human Aggressive" appear to look the same in so many eyes??? They often seem to attack small people? Having said that, I have a curious question. I wonder statistically how many pit bull and pit bull mix attacks are done by purebred pits vs. "mixes"? Does anybody know where I can find this answer in study by any chance?

People who have many years experience with the pit bull will tell you the pit bull cross is more likely to attack than a pure pit bull. Many breeds have the desire to attack, most do not have the courage needed to attack. With the pit bull blood added to the other breeds in some cases it will give the dog that additional courage to attack. Also many of the other breeds may attack but do not have the strength and tenacity to do a lot of damage or kill. With the addition of pit bull blood the result may be a dog with the strength and tenacity to do a lot of damage, even kill.

Years ago some people would use crossbreeds in dog matches. It will, in many cases, result in a strong dog that is fight crazy. They would attack and fight even more than a pure pit bull. They also have the bad habit of attacking the owner when a handle is attempted especially if they are in pain. They will quit as soon as they start to loose but they can do a lot of damage before they decide to quit. Most people are not a match for a dog, especially a child. The fight crazy cross dog will not be loosing and will continue the attack until it has done some very serious damage or even kill. If they are attacking an animal and a person attempts to separate them they will, in some cases, attack the person. The pure pit bull will keep trying to attack the animal and ignore the human.

People with experience in matching dogs have know this for many years. That is one of the reasons they keep their dogs as pure as possible. Many years ago the people who matched dogs did not share this info with cur dog owners even though it was common knowledge to them.

[IliamnasQuest]

I feel for the poor child who was attacked and killed. I can't even imagine how bad that must be.

Every time I see anything with "pitbull" and "attack" in the subject line, I know there are going to be the two extremes arguing - those who don't want to believe the pitbull is to blame at all, and those who want to get rid of all pitbulls. You see this more with pitbull threads than any other. Of course, there are those more in the middle too.

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again - if pitbull breeders don't start working toward eliminating aggression in the breed, then they're likely to end up having no breed left. In this day and age, it's downright dangerous to have a dog that is accepted as dog aggressive. I know, everyone will start talking about how the pitbull was bred to be good with people, etc. but the reality is that there are TOO many attacks happening. These dogs need to be bred to be non-aggressive in any way. A dog that is willing to start a fight with another dog and fight to the death, is one that is probably more likely to continue to bite a human beyond the point of stopping the person from whatever they were doing. A dog that is normal, that is reasonable, may bite a person but then they stop. They don't continue to attack.

I don't accept the excuse that someone caused the dog to attack and kill. What excuse could there possibly be for ANY dog attacking and killing a human, other than fighting for its life?? A five year old child who may accidentally trip on a dog, or even pull a tail or grab an ear, should not be KILLED for it. We shouldn't have dogs willing to react that badly, regardless of the breed. And we should all be responsible enough to teach our dogs that being handled roughly is not reason to bite. We have to teach bite inhibition in order for them to be safe in today's society.

I see the blame here as multiple. The dog is to blame, because it's not normal for a dog to kill a person. The owner is to blame, because this dog showed prior signs of having problems. And those who continue to breed aggressive pitbulls are to blame because aggression, unfortunately, is not always exclusive to one species (regardless of what some people want to claim).

I have German shepherds and chows and both are on some BSL-type lists. I make **** sure my dogs have a high level of bite inhibition. I don't make excuses for dogs of my breeds who kill or hurt a child .. there was something wrong with the dog AND the owner, as far as I'm concerned. I just can't blame a young child - EVER - for getting killed by a dog.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[casablanca1]

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again - if pitbull breeders don't start working toward eliminating aggression in the breed, then they're likely to end up having no breed left. In this day and age, it's downright dangerous to have a dog that is accepted as dog aggressive. I know, everyone will start talking about how the pitbull was bred to be good with people, etc. but the reality is that there are TOO many attacks happening. These dogs need to be bred to be non-aggressive in any way. A dog that is willing to start a fight with another dog and fight to the death, is one that is probably more likely to continue to bite a human beyond the point of stopping the person from whatever they were doing. A dog that is normal, that is reasonable, may bite a person but then they stop. They don't continue to attack.

I completely agree.

[Amstaffer]

I completely agree.

I also agree.........and many have been bred to be "cold", so it can be done.

[ToscasMom]

CNN keeps announcing they are covering this story this morning. The trailer they keep using to announce the story is coming up ...film of the killed child sprinkled with a film of a Rottweiler play-fighting with another dog. I couldn't see what breed the other dog was, the Rottie was prominant...looked like a lab mix from the wagging tail. I've seen it about three times already but no story so far. If you want to tune in the time is now.

[skyeboxer]

That particular dog regardless of its breed was known by the community to be dangerous. It's 21 year old thug owner had already been done for drug possession with intent to supply and by newspaper accounts took sadistic pleasure in terrorising the neighbourhood by letting the dog run loose and frighten people. He was also known to brag about having an aggressive breed.

Why was this particular young man allowed to continue owning this particular dog? Is it too much to hope for that he would never be allowed to own another?

If owners of breeds on the BSL do not come together to police themselves the policing will be done for them by banning and strict licensing. Rotties, Filas and GSD's are next on the UK list calling for registration and muzzling in public. How long before they too are banned in the Uk? How safe is your collie, your lab, your poodle?

This is not about any breed, its about responible ownership of dogs - all dogs. Responsible breeding has to be part of that. I don't know the answers but it seems to me that instead of jumping on the same old merry-go-round regarding the pitties reputation we need to brainstorm proposals from our side to counter a government total ban.

Does that make sense?

How about, for example, that in order to own a pit bull, one should be free of a violence related police record, have to pay a significant license fee and take out extra insurance? Hmmm... it doesn't seem fair that the local Flash Harry may be able to pay the extra money while Joe Bloggs who simply loves the breed cannot.

Okay ... what about owners having a legal requirement to take their dog to a specialised BSL breed obedience class?

I don't know guys ... but instead of turning this into yet another pro-anti pit thread, perhaps we could come up with some ideas that may one day protect the breeds we love and the humans who may be at risk from poor ownership of them. :(

[doglover101]

OMG!!! that is soo sad!

[casablanca1]

instead of turning this into yet another pro-anti pit thread, perhaps we could come up with some ideas that may one day protect the breeds we love and the humans who may be at risk from poor ownership of them. :(

Frankly, the only way to avoid this becoming another pro/anti argument is to quit framing all disagreements over this issue as a pro/anti argument. I don't regard myself as anti-pit bull, and I do not consider several vehement pit bull advocates to be pro-pit bull, as they're not doing the breed any favors. What happened to the idea that people of good will can disagree?

[Gempress]

There was something wrong with that dog and owner both. For a dog to KILL a child is completely abnormal. I'm not saying pit bulls are bad. Heck, I couldn't care less what breed the dog was. That dog was dangerous and not mentally stable.

I think the reason this case is getting so much attention is because pit bulls are an illegal breed over there specifically because of incidents like this.

I do see some of what Bob is saying. It is a bit disheartening on some threads to see how many reasons people come up with as to why the dog wasn't to blame: child left alone, bite victim must have "done something", dog was stressed, the dog "sensed something wasn't right with that person", dog was in a bad mood, whatever.

Yes, there are plenty of times when normally placid dogs can be provoked to bite a human. But to kill, horribly disfigure or nearly rip off limbs? That is not normal.

[skyeboxer]

Casablanca1,

Please go back and read my post again. I do not use the word 'argument' anywhere. In fact the sentence you quoted pretty well sums up the gist of the post so thank you for that.

[MelissaCato]

..I think you can give a perfectly healthy, beautiful, high drive pup to a buyer and it can become a monster. You could have given that same pup to a different buyer, and it would be a superstar. I believe it's truely the owner, training, environment, exersize, socializin', diet, vaccines... that altimately end in the dogs fate. I believe this. A pup learns the most in the first 6-8 months of life.
I believe I've seen a report once that stated most shelter dogs are aged 10 months to two years. With the elders being surrendered.

What we the public should focus, (and we don't) because it's controlled by the media, is the life story on the dog in question. Nobody really knows the dogs life story in these "articles" just the life story of the victim.

I believe there's always two sides of a story and in these cases, dogs can't talk. So, they loose their respect.

I think the gardian of the child @ the time should take the sentence of the "death row dog". Maybe then people would wise up and "respect" the power and responsibility of ownership of a dog. If not, there's goldfish.

... this is a CRAZY world, maybe some parents just don't care about their children.

Melissa.

[elegy]

so very sad. i can't imagine what the family is going through right now :(

BSL does such an awesome job of preventing this stuff, eh?

[elegy]

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again - if pitbull breeders don't start working toward eliminating aggression in the breed, then they're likely to end up having no breed left. In this day and age, it's downright dangerous to have a dog that is accepted as dog aggressive. I know, everyone will start talking about how the pitbull was bred to be good with people, etc. but the reality is that there are TOO many attacks happening. These dogs need to be bred to be non-aggressive in any way.

dog aggression is not the same thing as human aggression. that little girl didn't die because the dog was dog aggressive. people are being injured and killed because unstable dogs are being bred.

well-bred, stable pit bulls bred by responsible breeders and sold to repsonsible owners are not the ones causing harm, dog-aggressive or no.

and the idea of breeding all aggression out of dogs is laughable to me. these are ANIMALS. and pit bulls are TERRIERS for crying out loud.

[blue]

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=7022007

[Aussie Red]

I have to say that I agree that a dog that kills humans is a bad dog no matter the breed. If a dog is trained and socialized and a face licker why can't it be left in the home while people sleep. Why does everyone assume the little girl did something to provoke it. I don't know of a 5 year old child up at 4:30 am. I usually don't post on these threads but I had to this time.
It can be said that the owners perhaps did not truly socialize and train the dog that's true. But I would sure hate to think that I had to pen Whiskey up at night to keep him from killing me.
I am not going to take down the pit bull breed because I have done my research as well and this can happen with a Saint Bernard, German Shepard and the list goes on. What I don't like is that alot of you seam to blame the owner or the victim. Maybe it infact is just alot of inbreading causing an insanity problem in this breed because they are so high demand. And if you think not go to a big city and see how many there are. They are a fad dog right now as the Dobie was in the 80's and this happened alot with them too.
The main thing I say her is a dog that attacks and kills needs destroyed!!!
Rather then passing blame maybe they need to find where the dog was gotten from and see if others have attacked too. It could be bred in. With all the people here pleading for genetic test and health etc before breeding do you not think that this may be the problem with this breed ?

[Amstaffer]

Maybe it infact is just alot of inbreading causing an insanity problem in this breed because they are so high demand.?

Inbreeding I am sure is part of it but if you saw the abuse and neglect these dogs go through in the inner cities you would be completely amazed they don't attack and kill more often :mad:

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Most reputable breeders "in breed", it's called line breeding.

All breed's breeders do it. They do it to bring out the best traits in their lines.

They do it responsibly but honestly I wouldnt want an inbred dog (although I do have one, didnt know until after I had him).

Cant tell you how many times I have heard how aggressive Dalmatians are (most people say it is because they are inbred), but I have 2 and they are the sweetest dogs ever. (Weston's parents were brother & sister or mother & son:rolleyes: )

Same about German Shepherds, lots of people say they are aggressive and vicious as well, never had a problem with my boy. Same about pit bulls. Jet is the sweetest guy out of my bunch (pit bull foster dog).

Everyone is entitled to their opinions though, I think one day the people who say pits are horrible monsters will find out the truth, but I dont think they are going to listed to anything anyone has to say on a message board.

I feel so horrible for this girl, it's such a tragedy. Her parents must be heartbroken.

All I will say about the pit bull issue is this proves BSL doesnt work.

[shadowfacedanes]

If a dog attacks a person it is because the OWNER did something wrong.

Not necessarily. There are several factors involved in aggression. (I'm not speaking specifically on this case or any other, just general)

1)Genetics (was the dog genetically proned to be aggressive? Aggression can be hereditary - which is why purchasing from a good breeder who only breeds from sound stock is critical)

2)Environment - was the dog raised properly? Trained? Abused? Exercised?

3)Socialization - was the dog socialized or unfamiliar with strangers/children/noises

4)Medical condition - many medical conditions can cause aggression

5)Provocation - any living being has a breaking point at which it will react. Proper socialization and training can help raise this threshold, but still, it is instinct and nature to have a point where any living thing will fight back.

Sometimes attacks are caused by one factor. Sometimes several.

[MelissaCato]

Does anyone think Aggression is a learned behavior?

[chinchow]

Human aggression is more likely to be learned. Not many breeds were specifically bred to have human aggression as a trait. And today, even breeds that were bred to be forceful with people are making amazing family pets.

No breed was bred to rip people apart or kill them though. For that to be "instinct", there is something mentally wrong with the dog, or the owner has caused them to act this way.

[DemitriousK]

My mother, most days I don't admit to having one... I *swear that I'm a test tube baby!*, is a smart woman. Smart, resourceful, and talented. The only thing wrong with her is that she's just one or two cans shy of a six pack...

And if she weren't busy being a traitorous, scheming, thieving, self absorbed human being... she'd be great. As it is she hurts everyone that she comes in contact with. And she destroys everything she touches.

Statistically a certain percentage of the human population is just bound to be wacko. Just how it is. The genes change. Circumstances shape. Things happen. The severity of the "wacko" factor changes from one nut job to another... some people are serial killers, some are OCD. The reasons change too. Birth defects, childhood trauma, substance abuse, illness.

So the reasons change, and severity changes, but the statistics stay the same. Statistically some percentage of humans are going to be certifiable... It's not "fair" that it had to be MY mom (for whatever fair is worth,) but it had to be somebodies. I therefor don't find it a difficult leap to imaging that the same sort of statistic applies to dogs.

Some of them are just going to be nuts-o. Reasons change: breeding, training, abuse, neglect, illness. But it's bound to happen one way or another. It's not fair that this little girl had to win this lottery. It's very tragic.

But saying that it couldn't have been breeding is as short sided as saying that it had to be breeding. Saying that training would have solved it is as narrow as saying that it would not have. That all depends on the cause. And the cause is a variable which changes from case to case.

The bottom line here is that this is one of those problems where all of the causes have to be fixed before the symptoms are going to go away. Better breeding with careful attention to family disposition. Careful training with special attention to socialization. Careful supervision with special attention to new situations.

If the whole of the population could agree on these things then the problem would almost disappear. Almost. There's still always going to be natures little joker card. Living species were meant to change, and change they will, no matter how careful the breeding, training there will always be a certain percentage (albeit a smaller percentage) of these kinds of things that happen.

[casablanca1]

Does anyone think Aggression is a learned behavior?

I don't know that aggression itself is learned, but the behaviors are definitely practiced and perfected.

[Bahamutt99]

Bad breeding can certainly result in a human-aggressive dog. I think in most cases, the HA stems from a variety of factors. Bad breeding + poor socialization + lack of training for things like bite inhibition. Sadly, I've heard the line a few times from people who've bought puppies off iffy parents that they just didn't know that temperament could be hereditary.

[Amstaffer]

Most behaviors are the result of life experiences. Genetic traits influence how creatures respond to life experiences but the life experiences that follow the expression of genetic traits can and will supress or enhance genetic traits.

If you have a dog that is dominant towards humans and is rewarded or unstimulated for aggressive expression then the aggression will increase. The same goes for positive behaviors.

In the end, behavior is trumped by life experience not genetics. Genetics can make the training a whole lot easier but doesn't control behavior.

You could train a Border Collie to fear Sheep, it would be cruel but it could be done.

[RD]

Anytime a dog attacks and kills a person the dog is at fault, the breed does not matter. There isn't any reason a dog should kill a person, especially a child. It doesn't matter what the child did the dog was at fault for killing the child.
I agree. It isn't about fault though, IMO, because dogs seem to have no concept of blame or fault.

It's about the dog. If the dog bites with enough aggression to kill a child, it should be destroyed. It isn't the way it was raised, it isn't the breed, it isn't even the owners. It's the dog, the individual. There is something seriously wrong with a dog that will attack and kill a member of its family - I don't give a **** if it's a Pit Bull or a Pekingese..

Stop defending the dog that killed a little girl. Were it a defensive attack, the dog would have stopped once the child retreated. This was a vicious and uncalled for attack and I'm appalled that anyone can even think of saying "it must have been something the child did". I can stand up for a dog that bites in defense of itself. I can't stand up for one that kills.

[Road dog]

Some pitbull hater on You Tube used this incident as an excuse to make an anti pitbull video disguised as a memorial tribute to this little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42XFyjH-uno

[Aussie Red]

Some pitbull hater on You Tube used this incident as an excuse to make an anti pitbull video disguised as a memorial tribute to this little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42XFyjH-uno

Are you serious ???? Making a statement about something like that does more harm to getting people to understand a pittbull then to help them. It is exactly the type of thing anti pit people are looking for out of pro pit people. I thought the video was a very moving tribute to a lovely young girl who lost her life to a deranged dog !!!!!! That video would not change my mind one bit because I feel any dog is capable of killing if it is nuts!!! But statements such as yours and the fact that a child was killed and you see it as propaganda and if I continue to read such statements as to it being that childs fault then I may rethink my stand on the breed. Statements like this make me think cover up. If pit owners would spend more time introducing them to the public in positive ways such as in senior centers handicapped places I think you would make more ground. Placing blame on an innocent 5 yr. old or thier parents is not going to gain sympathy or help their cause.

[RD]

I think Road Dog was referring to the statements in the video such as "Pit Bulls are not pets, they are weapons".

It was a nice to the little girl but I wish they'd have left that BS out.

I just don't understand what people don't grasp about INDIVIDUALS. That dog needed to be destroyed, but that doesn't mean all Pits do. There are some Border Collies that can't work worth a dam.n does that mean they all are worthless as stock dogs?

[Road dog]

Thank you RD.

Not once did I place blame on the child.

I think that the pics of viscious looking dogs and the statements, generalizing the breed, calling them deadly weapons were completely uncalled for. His comments had nothing at all to do with this particular attack. They were generalizing an entire breed as being bad.

[gdsgregory]

Please please do not consider or describe this dog as a pit bull. It is a sh!t bull bred by back yard scum who have no interest in the breed. The animal was bred and purchased as nothing more than a penis extension. Temperament as well as physical features defines a breed.
Jeez it really p!sses me off.

[pancho]

Please please do not consider or describe this dog as a pit bull. It is a sh!t bull bred by back yard scum who have no interest in the breed. The animal was bred and purchased as nothing more than a penis extension. Temperament as well as physical features defines a breed.
Jeez it really p!sses me off.

I didn't see anywhere that reported the breeding of the dog, the bloodline, or the pedigree. Please post where this was reported as I would be very interested in learning the pedigree and breeding of the dog.

[roughcollies]

First, let me say that this was a horrible tragedy and I am so sorry for the loss of this little girl. If it were my daughter, I would be devastated and want justice.

That said, here's my five cents. (darn inflation)

I agree. No dog should be left alone with a child, for the safety of both of them.

I was left alone with my dogs all the time as a kid. I was taught how to respond to them and they were taught how to tolerate me. It's called trust. New Age Parenting?!?! Makes no sense.

Oh, here we go again. Out comes the blame game, it was such a sweet dog until it snapped and killed somebody, demonize the victim by blaming on them, Pit Bull defence.. The same Mantra, over and over , again...... God, I get sick of hearing this garbage..:mad: :mad: What crud.....

No, if the dog attacked, it wasn't the kids fault, but it wasn't the dogs fault either. Irresponsible owner who didn't train/socialize. If the owner socialized and the kid possibly did something, the dog would be more tolerant.

What about the people that go into a thread where a death or maiming is reported, such as this one, and posting that it must have been something the victim did ( often a small child) that caused the trajedy. Is that OK, as far as you are concerned?

A small child is the most likely person to provoke a dog! Kids don't understand what they are and aren't supposed to do. It's NEVER okay for a dog to attack a person, but you can't blame an entire breed because one person was irresponsible and didn't train and socialize thier dog properly. ANY dog could have done the same thing! Your Smokey is just as capable as any pit or rottie.

where's the Balance? i'm sorry, but Bob has a point,however...bluntly...put!
Pitbull breeds are in the news more often, b/c they have a problem with many of these dogs! Now, I've known a few sweeties myself, but as he mentioned ,owning a dog who requires 24/7 supervison is more like having a wild tiger around,not a domesticated animal.
And, I was sort of thinking the same thing to a number of posts here, this little girl DIED. It's not the first,or last time we're going to see this. I don't know what the answer is- I don't pretend to know. But i do know that an animal,a breed of animal,or a type of animal who is capable of such destruction deserves more scrutiny than a simple" it must be a bad owner" response.
I realize all dogs have this capability. I also realize that all dogs don't have issues like this as a breed. BUT- All dogs are not the same- breed,temperament, natural inclinations, they are all factors. Just b/c you may love a breed, doesn't make it a safe and wonderful choice for the rest of us.I know many of you love your pit breeds, but I'm also a parent, and I see in this story the death of a small child. By a pitbull. I know they aren't all demons, but there IS a problem. All the "Oh,how sads" really should be directed at the thought of a child being mauled to death.

So your research. Pits are NOT the problem. There are more pits, or mixes thereof out there than most breeds. And they only account for a VERY tiny fraction of deaths by dogs each year.

Ignorant -
–noun

the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

[RD]

RC, what about the breeder? You are taking the owners into consideration (and they sound like the unsavory type) but what if they did everything right? I think the fault for this lies with the breeder too. There's something very, very wrong with a dog that will attack and KEEP ATTACKING until a PACK MEMBER is dead. It doesn't matter if it's a child that provoked him. What could a 5 year old could've done? Poked him? Stepped on him? I've seen properly bred Pit Bulls endure worse with a smile and a tail wag.

Temperament makes a big deal, even in cases where abuse is involved. A child could beat Dakota within an inch of his life: he'd bite, for sure, but kill? When a child gets bitten, they immediately recoil and back off. That's when most defensive attacks end. I have a hard time believing that this was a defensive attack brought on by provocation. Sorry, jmo.

[skyeboxer]

Pancho,

I am sorry I can not give you a link to it and don't have anyhting to back up what I am saying as I don't have the newpaper I read this in to hand. But as I recall, the Daily Mail in the Uk reported that this dog was supsected to be from the same litter that the police seized from a BYB. Except in this case the BY was I think, the back of a hairdressers shop.

Ah ... I did find a link to that... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/text/article.html?in_article_id=426514&in_page_id=1770&in_main_section=News&in_sub_section=&in_chn_id=1469

[Aussie Red]

Nice link Skyeboxer and thanks. This is my point that these animals are being bred for this and owned by gangsta type people and I never said that a pit was a horrible beast.
But what I have said is that pits need to be put out in a positive situation and show public that they can be good. I fear this is not going to happen when we blame it on victims. How can a person walking their poodle down the road on a lead be at fault when a pit runs up and eats it ?This is happening every day in the cities. These dogs are the victims of a type of people that we as a society have yet to figure a solution for. Bear in mind they raise these dogs to act as they do. Lets not forget that these people will also drive by a home and shoot into it with not a care in the world that they shot and killed a three year old child. There is a pit problem and it is directly related to those who have no reguard for human life anyway. What is the solution ? I truly don't know but I can offer a suggestion. When pits are taken into custody weither full or mix they should be adopted out to owners who have been thouroughly back ground checked and also do not live in the areas where pits are being used as leathal wepons. Being as how the shelters are overloaded with pit and pit bull mix it is to easy for these poor excuses for humans to get their hands on one and train it or force it to live their lifestyle. I see your pits up here and have grown to love them but these I fear are the rare exception because they have good owners. I do not hate any breed however I don't want to own every breed either.
Blaming the victim is never right and we all can agree that it is because of irresponsible ownership now my question is WHAT IS THE ANSWER ???

[skyeboxer]

Yes, that was my question some posts back. :)

[Amstaffer]

Some pitbull hater on You Tube used this incident as an excuse to make an anti pitbull video disguised as a memorial tribute to this little girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42XFyjH-uno

I thought it was a disgusting exploitation of a young girls death to further someones hatred of a dog breed. The maker of that should be ASHAMED! If it was a tribute to the girl (which it started out to be) why did they have all the BS about a breed of dog? Thats not a tribute, that is exploitation!

RD-- INDIVIDUALS... What don't they get about it? People as a whole like stereotypes. Its easier for the mind; labels are short cuts for the mind. People don't want to relearn each individual they want to be able to say that All "X" are bad. That way the TV does all the thinking :(
Heck, that is why so many people love to hate other people they have never met....its easy.

[Amstaffer]

Pancho,

I am sorry I can not give you a link to it and don't have anyhting to back up what I am saying as I don't have the newpaper I read this in to hand. But as I recall, the Daily Mail in the Uk reported that this dog was supsected to be from the same litter that the police seized from a BYB. Except in this case the BY was I think, the back of a hairdressers shop.

Ah ... I did find a link to that... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/text/article.html?in_article_id=426514&in_page_id=1770&in_main_section=News&in_sub_section=&in_chn_id=1469

Very informative link.... animal abuse comes back to "bite" us again :(
It is to bad the poor little girl had to pay for the sins of her father and his friends. Thats the way it always seems to happen :(

[Buddy'sParents]

I thought it was a disgusting exploitation of a young girls death to further someones hatred of a dog breed. The maker of that should be ASHAMED! If it was a tribute to the girl (which it started out to be) why did they have all the BS about a breed of dog? Thats not a tribute, that is exploitation!

I wholeheartedly agree and told the maker of the video the same thing. They should be ashamed of what they did- that was not a tribute to the life of a young girl. :(

[ToscasMom]

Whomever made that video knew that little girl. Where else would he or she have gotten so many photos of her but via the family. The video is chuck full of pain and anger. Just putting myself in their place for a minute, I would imagine right now that the family is not too in love with pit bulls right now. It is easy not to feel the pain of a statistic when you are not one of the statistics. I don't think the intent was to exploit so much as to explode.

[Kayla]

Personally I think the video is directed at the wrong part involved with this tragic incident, taking revenge against the entire breed is just a lazy form of grief, it won't make anyone feel better in the long run.

Kayla

[skyeboxer]

a lazy form of grief...

Kayla

That is a strange way to put it. I'm pretty sure if my 5 year old girl was mauled to death by a chiuaha it would take me a very long time not to want to kick every one I ever met to death. And believe me, I have nothing against chis.

I also have nothing against pits and agree 100% about looking at dogs as individuals. That said what a tragedy it is that the pit breed is so attractive to shady owners and are so often bred for all the wrong reasons.

Grief is a dreadful, dreadful thing. It grips you like a vice round the throat and will not let you go. Anger, despair, hatred, suicidal impulses, extreme depression. The anger perhaps should be directed to that irresponsible young man but I cannot imagine grief ever being described as lazy.

I did not watch that video and will not. Perhaps you are right, Kayla. But don't ever judge anyone on their reactions to the death of a loved one. We are all capable of losing touch with reason at a time like that.

[Kayla]

Oh I wasn't judging them in the sense of putting them down, but in my view revenge is a lazy form of grief because it allows you to avoid dealing with what actually happening and finding a way to grief for them not for what happened to them. Obviously when anything as horrible as that grips a family taking revenge whether its against an actual person or animal your diverting yourself from having to deal with the pain of what actually happened by blaming something else. In the end everyone has to deal with the horrible emotions that come along with the loss of a loved one especially such a young and innocent child and I can't say I wouldn't be extremely angry either in a similar situation and did not mean to sound like I was putting the family down, but I still stick by my original though that seeking revenge instead of griefing will not make that pain go away thus it is a lazy way to grief as it's a temporary escape,nothing more.

Kayla

[shadowfacedanes]

Whomever made that video knew that little girl. Where else would he or she have gotten so many photos of her but via the family. The video is chuck full of pain and anger. Just putting myself in their place for a minute, I would imagine right now that the family is not too in love with pit bulls right now. It is easy not to feel the pain of a statistic when you are not one of the statistics. I don't think the intent was to exploit so much as to explode.

The poster of the video stated they were not related to the family, and from the posts made by the poster of the video, you get a feeling that this was indeed an attempt to exploit. If you read through the ten pages of comments, you'll see their opinions on pit bulls very clearly.

[ToscasMom]

I honestly didn't know there was such a thing as a lazy form of grief. The only grief I have ever known or seen in others was always very intense and, quite honestly, exhausting. Sometimes it even gives way to anger. Sometimes it even ruins entire families. No, grief is not for the lazy.

I know that deep down inside there has to be a miniscule of sympathy if not empathy for the family that lost a five year old to a wincing mauling. It just doesn't show very much here. It really is easy not to feel the pain when it isn't our own. Statistics often mean nothing to us unless we become one of them. My family was affected by a very rare statistic that resulted in a horrible unnecessary death and the subsequent death of another member. I can tell you that knowing it was rare and could have been prevented did not quell the grief one bit. Statistics have a funny way of thumbing their noses at you. Not being one doesn't mean you will never become one. I am using "you" here in the generic and it is not directed at any specific person. It is wrong to be angry at this family. They have done nothing except be a victim of a horrible killing.

I remember Harry Nilsson's work, The Point, where one of the characters says, "We see what we want to see, and we hear what we want to hear, ya dig?". The general public falls into that category right now on this issue, and so do all pit bull owners, it seems. Both sides are seeing what they want to see and hearing what they want to hear. If you feel that others exploit these deaths for the cause against a breed, the truth is, if there weren't another death there would be nothing to exploit.

I really feel for those of you who have beloved pit bulls, but if you would just take a moment and re-read how little of your feelings are associated with victims in these threads, I know you will see what I am saying here. I know you are afraid. But shutting down your feelings for victims or showing disdain for their valid feelings will not help the case for pit bulls. The thing is, I know it's not deliberate so much is it rings of fear of your own. Fear that one day your dog may be banned. I understand this and I honestly don't know the answer. But I will tell you that the answer does not lie in defending growing statistics and discounting deaths as the fault of people who THOUGHT they had a family pet before it killed. I really think you would all do better to say, Yes there is a problem with pit bull attacks and I am saddened because my dog isn't part of that problem.

Honestly, blaming the victims of this killing or their subsequent reactions from grief (as in helping someone to make a video) is not very helpful to The Cause. I know that people's beloved pets hang in the balance here, but it does no good to comparatively discount the pain, suffering, disfigurement or death of someone who is loved by someone else. As I said, the future of beloved pets hang in the balance so it's at least somewhat excusable, but not to the general public. They are never in the mood for intellectualizing when they feel they are in danger. Overall, the general public is going to win out when it comes down to them or any one of our dogs. It's the way it is.

It used to be that people had dogs and if one got loose, you would look out the window and day Geeze, Ernie's dog is loose. You hoped that he didn't poop on your lawn at best or get hit by a car at worst. In the decades in which I grew up, and I'm no Spring Chicken, I did not know a single person personally who was mauled or killed by a dog until the past decade. It did happen "somewhere else" and it was covered in newspapers then too. But it was comparatively rare, rare enough to be horrific to imagine it actually happening to anyone you knew. It's not like that today. Today, if Ernie's dog gets loose and it's a breed we have read about over and over again, we say Oh My God, Ernie's dog is loose and he could attack and kill somebody. You have to realize that this is where the public is at and that it is not altogether without reason. All any of us has to do is google any breed name followed by the word "kills" to understand that the concern is real. The only time I ever got bitten by a dog where it really hurt, it was a pomeranian. If I google "Pomeranian Kills" I don't imagine I will see too many articles. Today, if I see a loose Pom, my first thought isn't that it will kill anyone, but I wouldn't want to be bitten. Bites happen. They don't kill. The public accepts that a dog could bite. Maimings and deaths on the other hand, are not acceptable--especially with respect to children or the elderly. The net has given the public a heavier understanding of these deaths and how they occur and it is really not helpful in either direction to ignore the statistics.

I know I have mentioned this before and I am only trying to throw a dose of honesty in here, but the general public does not want to adapt to dogs. They expect dogs to adapt to them. This means they expect the public to be as safe as possible from the potential that a child or other pet might be killed or maimed by a dog of any breed should he happen to get loose. Dogs get loose sometimes. It happens. It could happen to anyone. Does every breed have the potential? Of course, just like every human has the potential. Some humans have the temperament for it, some don't. Some humans aren't wired right. Some dogs aren't wired right. Some dogs have the temperament for it and some dont. I think all of us have the potential to kill in self defense but not as an offense--that is, unless there is something seriously wrong with us. Soldiers not withstanding. I'm sure we can all agree that if a guy ran down the street and killed several people indiscriminately, we would forget who his parents were or what his upbringing was and just focus on the fact that he is crazy. We would blame him. However, with dogs, it is easy to determine breed or breed mixes. So you see, it's the natural course of things when the public at large reads about these things associated with one breed almost weekly, that they would connect the dots toward the breed, without regard to who owned each and every dog and how it was bred or raised. In the public's mind, these are "peripheral" issues to the "problem" they see with their safety. But regardless of who is peripherally to blame, when a dog kills another pet or a human, it is the dog's fault. Dogs have no constitutional protections and are not entitled to fair trials. When a victim is killed this is the travesty, not the fate of the dog.

Society does not expect us to keep animals that have a history of sudden short fuses and call them family pets. They regard them with the same caution as they would a pet tiger. When a person is maimed or killed by the same breed almost weekly somewhere out there, there is no way on this earth that the public will accept that the "Victim did something to make it happen". This will never be acceptable. Children will never be hurt by dogs with short fuses if we just get rid of children. You can see that is not a very good argument. Ok, then we will train all children. No, we won't, because as I said the public does not want to adapt to dogs. Dogs must adapt to them. If a particular breed of dog is so different as to require special training of the general public, the outrage would be even greater. They will make laws and more laws to ensure their own safety, even if they are not reasonable laws. But please do not blame the victims for this fervor. They are the least guilty of us all in their grief, even if they justifiably lash out in grief induced anger as their numbers grow. Losing a child has got the be the worst thing that could ever happen to a mother and the efforts we see are almost identical the the MAD movement. Victims are gathering their strength and pooling it. It's what keeps them all from losing their minds over their senseless losses.

[Amstaffer]

ToscasMom,

The "lack" of feeling for the girl? Why do you say that? Nearly ever poster has said how sad it is, about what happen to the girl. Just because we want the humans responsible for abusing a dog to the point it was unstable and killed, to be punished instead of thousands of innocent dogs that had zero to do with what happen, does not mean we don't care about the girl.

It is not that we don't care about the girl, its that the discussion has moved to blaming pit bulls as a breed and the refusal of some to acknowledge that human abuse and neglect created a single individual that became a monster.

You suggest what pit bull lover should say....I will suggest what Pit Bull hater should realize.... Humans that neglect and abuse animals are at fault and to hate a breed of dog is ignorant and naive and worst of all will do no good in the end. Change human behavior....and dog behavior will follow. If you destroy a breed the problem will not be solved, why can't you understand that most basic of facts?

Fault...you say dogs. I say the human that raised and controls it. Your belief is easier to deal with but is far less honest. Society will most likely take the easy way as it always does and so the innocent will be punished.

Just for intellectual exercise, In all of anti-pit bull propaganda out there, white out every place it says "Pit Bull" and then insert "Black Male" and then maybe you will see the stupidity of it.

It just amazes me that what appear to be smart people can't understand that a few (yes a few when you consider the total population vs attacks) attacks by a very few members of a group can't logically condemn and entire group.

I'll say it again, with the terrible abuse and neglect that many pit bulls endure, it is amazing they don't go crazy more often and attack. It is our duty as compassionate being to end the abuse and exploitation of pit bulls and you will see this "problem" stop.

I almost think that many Pit Bull haters refuse to blame the humans that abuse dogs (thus creating monsters) because Subconsciousally they fear guilt by association, because they are humans like the ones at fault.

[ToscasMom]

Amstaffer, I love my dog more than I care about the majority of people I know. I also know that an analogy of my dog that implies she is on the same level of as humans in society is not acceptable, neither morally, legally or constitutionally. Dogs do not enjoy the same rights and privileges of human beings. I cannot envision substituting Pit Bulls or Collies or any other breed for African American males or any other humans with or without labels. I do think that is the part of understanding that is missing here. The safety of humans will always come before the safety of dogs. In our country, we are inept at caring for abused, starving and poor children, and they are humans. Do we really think that the same issue in a breed of dog is going to increase awareness if we can't even raise interest in taking care of children?

[MelissaCato]

....were the caretakers of the child charged with neglect? Was anyone charged at all? It's so easy to put the blame on a dog, it's the humans way to dodge responsibility. That child died because of irresponsible people and those people are putting the blame on the pet dwelling in the same house with the same caretakers. If this would have been a "dog at large" and killed the child, it would have been completely different story with a human owner located and charged. Why is this any different? Personally I think this case is more serious because that little girl, depended on the adults in the house to keep her safe in her home. And they failed her.
.. for a dog to do something like this... there were signs leading up to that terrible day that were also neglected within that household. JMO.

[Kayla]

I honestly didn't know there was such a thing as a lazy form of grief. The only grief I have ever known or seen in others was always very intense and, quite honestly, exhausting. Sometimes it even gives way to anger. Sometimes it even ruins entire families. No, grief is not for the lazy.


You've completely misunderstood what I said, and am now twisting my words. I never once said grief was for the lazy. As being human we have all lost a loved one or a close one and it is very very hard. I simply said that from experience by passing off acceptance for what has happened does not make griefing for a loved one any easier then it already is, of course anger and rage and despair and utter gut renching agony are very normal and healthy part of griefing I was simply stating that in the long run putting the blame on other people or other things for what happens only extends the griefing process as it delays coming to terms what happens, this can take years sometimes but ultimatly passing blame or taking revenge on those who have hurt us or who have taken something from us does not help.

I respect your opinion on the matter but please do not twist my words as I was not implying griefing was for the lazy.

R.I.P to Ellie, and my deepest condolences to her family if they should ever view this thread as no parent should have to bury their children.

May they eventually find themselfes at peace after this terrible tradedgy and let us hope no more innocent blood is split as an aftermath of it.

Kayla

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer, I love my dog more than I care about the majority of people I know. I also know that an analogy of my dog that implies she is on the same level of as humans in society is not acceptable, neither morally, legally or constitutionally. Dogs do not enjoy the same rights and privileges of human beings. I cannot envision substituting Pit Bulls or Collies or any other breed for African American males or any other humans with or without labels. I do think that is the part of understanding that is missing here. The safety of humans will always come before the safety of dogs. In our country, we are inept at caring for abused, starving and poor children, and they are humans. Do we really think that the same issue in a breed of dog is going to increase awareness if we can't even raise interest in taking care of children?

You miss my point, I was not implying equality between Pit Bulls and Black Male Humans. My point was that stereotypes are wrong and that perhaps the most obvious example of steroetypes run a muck is the black male in America.

The point I was trying to make that you missed is that I wasn't saying that animal rights/safety trumps humans rights/safety but rather if we don't start paying attention to of how humans treat animals it will come back to haunt us. If we don't start changing human behavior it will hurt humans not just animals.

Those children are not being harmed because all of sudden there is a new "killer" breed discovered in the amazon forest and unleashed on mankind. The children are paying the price for our acceptance of violence, abuse and neglect in our culture.

You go a head and ban a breed, be a party to thousands of wonderful dogs being PTS and Thousands of humans being traumatized....ignore the fact that they are innocent as in our present state of hysteria, innocence doesn't really matter.

Oh by the way....banning pit bulls will only be an appetizer for the hysteria nazis. Another fact that everyone seems to forget, this poor little girl was killed by a dog that was already banned :yikes: I guess that whole banning thing works great.

Cocaine is banned....how is that working out? It is illegal for felons and minors to own hand guns....how is that going? It is illegal for people who don't have permission to enter our country to work and live here....how is....I guess you get the point.

In our society we always want to take a short cut to solving problems, we don't want to deal with why people want Coke or want guns to kill each other. We don't want to deal with why people want to flee their country or why businesses undercut the American worker. The same goes for the Pit Bull, we don't want to know why they all of a sudden (last 20 years) have caused more trouble we just want to burn down the whole forest to kill one weed.

In short, if you really are interested in solving the problem and helping children, cure the problem not just treat the symptoms.

If your are interested in being part of the hysterical culture and watching nothing change but the pictures of the news story then.....Ban everything!

[Kayla]

You miss my point, I was not implying equality between Pit Bulls and Black Male Humans. My point was that stereotypes are wrong and that perhaps the most obvious example of steroetypes run a muck is the black male in America.

The point I was trying to make that you missed is that I wasn't saying that animal rights/safety trumps humans rights/safety but rather if we don't start paying attention to of how humans treat animals it will come back to haunt us. If we don't start changing human behavior it will hurt humans not just animals.

Those children are not being harmed because all of sudden there is a new "killer" breed discovered in the amazon forest and unleashed on mankind. The children are paying the price for our acceptance of violence, abuse and neglect in our culture.

You go a head and ban a breed, be a party to thousands of wonderful dogs being PTS and Thousands of humans being traumatized....ignore the fact that they are innocent as in our present state of hysteria, innocence doesn't really matter.

Oh by the way....banning pit bulls will only be an appetizer for the hysteria nazis. Another fact that everyone seems to forget, this poor little girl was killed by a dog that was already banned :yikes: I guess that whole banning thing works great.

Cocaine is banned....how is that working out? It is illegal for felons and minors to own hand guns....how is that going? It is illegal for people who don't have permission to enter our country to work and live here....how is....I guess you get the point.

In our society we always want to take a short cut to solving problems, we don't want to deal with why people want Coke or want guns to kill each other. We don't want to deal with why people want to flee their country or why businesses undercut the American worker. The same goes for the Pit Bull, we don't want to know why they all of a sudden (last 20 years) have caused more trouble we just want to burn down the whole forest to kill one weed.

In short, if you really are interested in solving the problem and helping children, cure the problem not just treat the symptoms.

If your are interested in being part of the hysterical culture and watching nothing change but the pictures of the news story then.....Ban everything!

Very well said:)

Kayla

[ToscasMom]

Kayla, I will say that the only words of yours I used were the words "lazy form of grief". The rest are mine. Maybe you meant something other than how it looked (as in lazy grief). Perhaps you meant "expedient". It's just plain normal for people in grief to lash out in an expedient way. It's an outlet that is necessary in order to legally expel extreme anger. Part of the stages of morning, really--anger and disbelief.

Amstaffer, do you see what pit bulls REALLY are up against? Because what I have been giving you is a snapshot of what the majority of our country thinks of pit bulls right now, and that perhaps the arguments pitbull defenders might want to use as a defense aren't going to fly if the intent is to change opinions. It only puts everyone even further into the offense-defense trench. Being on the defensive is not a good place to be. A regroup on approach may be necessary to quell this. Too bad I haven't got a CLUE how to approach it because it has to mean no work for the public and be cheap. This is the reality of it all in the public forum. Local governments in general are reactive to outcry.

[Kayla]

Kayla, I will say that the only words of yours I used were the words "lazy form of grief". The rest are mine. Maybe you meant something other than how it looked (as in lazy grief). Perhaps you meant "expedient". It's just plain normal for people in grief to lash out in an expedient way. It's an outlet that is necessary in order to legally expel extreme anger. Part of the stages of morning, really--anger and disbelief.


Oh ok well maybe I just read your post wrong, sorry. I did however say anger was normal part of griefing however passing blame and being angry that your loved one is gone are two very different things and I was aruging that I do not feel in my opinion that the first is very healthy and explaied why.

Again I respect your outlooks on griefing and obviously their is no right or wrong way to grief, I simply put my point of view especially geared towards the video which was made to exploit a young girls life to spread hate and ignorance. A good example similar to taking revenge occured when Steve Irwin died and alot of people started killing sting rays for no reason other then they were mad that Steve had been killed by one, obviously their are many differences in that and this but at the very core my point about passing blame during griefing is a way to slip out of accepting what happened.


Kayla

[ToscasMom]

Kayla, xxoo.

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer, do you see what pit bulls REALLY are up against? Because what I have been giving you is a snapshot of what the majority of our country thinks of pit bulls right now, and that perhaps the arguments pitbull defenders might want to use as a defense aren't going to fly if the intent is to change opinions. It only puts everyone even further into the offense-defense trench. Being on the defensive is not a good place to be. A regroup on approach may be necessary to quell this. Too bad I haven't got a CLUE how to approach it because it has to mean no work for the public and be cheap. This is the reality of it all in the public forum. Local governments in general are reactive to outcry.

Well, I only know how to argue one way...with the truth and facts. I guess someone else who is a more skilled debater will have to spin it so the hysterical masses can digest it more completely.

[Bobsk8]

Well, I only know how to argue one way...with the truth and facts. I guess someone else who is a more skilled debater will have to spin it so the hysterical masses can digest it more completely.

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

[Amstaffer]

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

Its not about "groups" its about reality, not perception....

Well what you and your friends should be talking about is the Idiot owners who bring DA dogs to the park. No matter what breed you have it is stupid to bring a Dog Aggressive dog to the dog park. The dog park by my house has a problem with three owners and their dogs who are DA( an Akita, Dalmation and a large Golden Ret.). Do I think any of those three breeds should be banned? Logically I can't, I do however think those owners should be.

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

[Bobsk8]

Well what you and your friends should be talking about is the Idiot owners who bring DA dogs to the park. No matter what breed you have it is stupid to bring a Dog Aggressive dog to the dog park. The dog park by my house has a problem with three owners and their dogs who are DA( an Akita, Dalmation and a large Golden Ret.). Do I think any of those three breeds should be banned? Logically I can't, I do however think those owners should be.

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

This is unreal. I just got back from Lucky Schoals park where Smokey and I take our daily walk. I pull up to the parking area by the tennis courts, and inside the fenced in tennis court area are 2 Pit Bulls and the owner, a women. These are the kind of Pit Bulls that have that big head and chest and look like they could snap a tree trunk in half with one bite. The dogs are running around and chasing a ball. I get Smokey out of the car, and instantly these 2 dogs run over to the fence and start snapping and growling and I mean snapping and growling.:yikes: Smokey just stood there and looked at them like "what the **** is wrong with these two".

Now I notice that the women doesn't have any leashes with her. Apparently she parked her car near the entrance to the Tennis Court and walked these two monsters into the gated area off leash. Smokey and I walked past the court to the start of the trail, and the barking and growling and jumping against the chain link fence is getting worse and worse. The women is standing there looking at the two dogs like :confused: I am thinking that if these dogs get out, Smokey and I are dead meat , can of Halt or no can of Halt. A Colt 38 Special might not be enough to handle these two.

Now the dogs start fighting amongst themselves, and I mean fighting. They are snapping at each other, barking at Smokey , and more snapping at each other. It was like a scene out of a bad horror flick. This idiot women just stood there and watched all this, and frankly I think she was afraid of these dogs. I finally had had enough and I asked the women why she would bring two obviously aggressive dogs to a public park filled with other dogs and kids. She replied with a really surly attitude, " well they are in the cage here , aren't they". Just then two guys pull up and get out of their cars with tennis rackets and head for the gate door . Smokey and I ran to my car and jumped in, and left there to go to the park near my house......

How do I feel about Pit Bulls after this morning :mad: That's how!!!!!!

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Is it the breeds fault that their owner is a complete idiot with no control or knowlege of the breed?

No.

I would have called AC on her. Just because an idiot owns the dogs, doesnt mean the breed is bad. I have seen my share of horrible Dalmatian owners who let their Dals get seriously out of control and aggressive. I dont think the breed is bad though, I just think their stupid owners should never have any dog again. I have also seen plenty of people who think their Yorkie or Poodle is "cute" when it bites people and acts aggressively toward them.

I dont want to argue with you, I know your mind wont be changed over the internet, but think if that person was responsible and a good dog owner and trained her dogs, the dogs wouldnt have ever acted like that in the first place.

I know Jet (guy in my sig) would never act like that toward any dog or any person. He would have been up at the fence wagging his tail, wanting to play.

Next time, I highly suggest you call Animal Control. No matter what breed, dogs like that should not be allowed in public.

[darkchild16]

Call Animal Control!

That is an owner that is irresponsible. My dog would be jumping around yipping like hes a 10 lb dog wanting to play :rolleyes:

[ToscasMom]

Speaking of sad. I just saw a pit bull wandering around an area dragging his leash. There were a few people on the street staring at him and he looked really lost. He was jumping up on an empty store front door window looking for somebody, and just kind of confused. Nobody on the street wanted to get near him and he really looked like he wanted to find mom or dad or somebody.

[Road dog]

If I may add something here...

Its not about "groups" its about reality, not perception....

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

4. The news media, like everybody else is in business to make money. They want to report what gets people's attention, to sell lots of news papers and get high ratings on their tv broadcasts.

There are dozens upon dozens of dog bites and attacks in this country every day. How many do you hear about? How often do you hear "Labradoodle atacks!" or "Dalmation attacks!" or "Chihuahua attacks!" or "Keeshond attacks!" ?? Rarely to never... Why? Because "Pitbull" grabbs people's attention.

I encounter dog agressive dogs every day. Many are large breeds, but probably more often than not they are SMALL dogs like Pomeranians, Chihuahuas, and Shi Tzus. These dogs aren't any less agresive, just smaller and less threatening. The only dog that has EVER hurt me was a Pom, and that bugger full on ATTACKED me, bit the hell out of my hand. So, is it reasonable to declare that Poms are all monsters and should be banned?

And if Pitts were to become banned everywhere, what then? A new "Public enemy number one" breed will be chosen. Something new to catch the eyes of the news readers. Perhaps Rotties, Dobies, or GSDs. The cycle will repeat it's self... If that breed gets banned, who will be next?

Banning Pitts will accomplish NOTHING but villifying another breed and ruining even more people's lives.

[chinchow]

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

Not all other dog owners are that ignorant.
And the owners of those pit bulls should know better.
So, your point is?

[Bobsk8]

If I may add something here...

I encounter dog agressive dogs every day. Many are large breeds, but probably more often than not they are SMALL dogs like Pomeranians, Chihuahuas, and Shi Tzus. These dogs aren't any less agresive, just smaller and less threatening. The only dog that has EVER hurt me was a Pom, and that bugger full on ATTACKED me, bit the hell out of my hand. So, is it reasonable to declare that Poms are all monsters and should be banned?



the difference is, you probably still have your hand and it functions after the Pom attack. That probably wouldn't be the case if a PB grabbed your head, and you would probably be typing on your keyboard with nubs....

[Amstaffer]

This idiot women just stood there and watched all this, and frankly I think she was afraid of these dogs. !!!!

Well I think you are starting to figure it out, of course you don't realize it yet but I think you are getting there :D

Its not the dogs its the "Idiot" women............

[Amstaffer]

the difference is, you probably still have your hand and it functions after the Pom attack. That probably wouldn't be the case if a PB grabbed your head, and you would probably be typing on your keyboard with nubs....

Please tell me you don't buy the much defunked myth that Pit Bulls bite harder than any other dog their size. The bigger the dog the harder the bite, pit bulls are not super dogs.

Also, If you are ever up in Wisconsin with Smokey....I will introduce him to two Pit Bulls who he would love. Sal loves to wash faces :p

[Road dog]

the difference is, you probably still have your hand and it functions after the Pom attack. That probably wouldn't be the case if a PB grabbed your head, and you would probably be typing on your keyboard with nubs....

So pitts should be banned because they're bigger than a pom and can do more dammage? I've NEVER been attacked by a pitt, I HAVE been attacked by a pom. So why should I want to ban pitts and not poms??

What if I approached you with this...

Smokey looks to be a LOT bigger than a pom. She looks like she could do some dammage if she wanted to. I think you should have her destroyed. I want you to destroy your dog because I think she's big enough to hurt me.

Now does that sound fair and reasonable?? No? Why not? Mixed breed dogs of that size have bitten people many times and will again. Just because you've never seen it on the six o-clock news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Ptts have attacked people, so have dogs like Smokey. If it is fair to say that Pitts should be banned because they are capable of hurting people, then it is also fair to say dogs like yours should also be banned because they are also capable of hurting people.

Or how about this, more people are killed in this country every year by CARS than guns, knives, bombs, and animals all put together. If you have a drivers license you are one of the most dangerous people in the world. Surrender your license and turn your vehicle over to the state to be scrapped. Does that sound reasonable? No you say? You're a safe driver? All the death and carnage is caused by bad drivers? Well guess what dude, there are a LOT of safe pitt owners out there. And there are a LOT more bad drivers than there are bad pitt owners.

Five years ago I was T-boned by somebody driving a white Chevy Lumina. BAN CHEVY LUMINAS!! BAN THEM NOW!!!

[jess2416]

So pitts should be banned because they're bigger than a pom and can do more dammage? I've NEVER been attacked by a pitt, I HAVE been attacked by a pom. So why should I want to ban pitts and not poms??

What if I approached you with this...

Smokey looks to be a LOT bigger than a pom. She looks like she could do some dammage if she wanted to. I think you should have her destroyed. I want you to destroy your dog because I think she's big enough to hurt me.

Now does that sound fair and reasonable?? No? Why not? Mixed breed dogs of that size have bitten people many times and will again. Just because you've never seen it on the six o-clock news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Ptts have attacked people, so have dogs like Smokey. If it is fair to say that Pitts should be banned because they are capable of hurting people, then it is also fair to say dogs like yours should also be banned because they are also capable of hurting people.

Or how about this, more people are killed in this country every year by CARS than guns, knives, bombs, and animals all put together. If you have a drivers license you are one of the most dangerous people in the world. Surrender your license and turn your vehicle over to the state to be scrapped. Does that sound reasonable? No you say? You're a safe driver? All the death and carnage is caused by bad drivers? Well guess what dude, there are a LOT of safe pitt owners out there. And there are a LOT more bad drivers than there are bad pitt owners.

Five years ago I was T-boned by somebody driving a white Chevy Lumina. BAN CHEVY LUMINAS!! BAN THEM NOW!!!

:hail: :hail: :hail:

[Amstaffer]

Or how about this, more people are killed in this country every year by CARS than guns, knives, bombs, and animals all put together. If you have a drivers license you are one of the most dangerous people in the world. Surrender your license and turn your vehicle over to the state to be scrapped. Does that sound reasonable? No you say? You're a safe driver? All the death and carnage is caused by bad drivers? Well guess what dude, there are a LOT of safe pitt owners out there. And there are a LOT more bad drivers than there are bad pitt owners.

!!!

Very well said

[MelissaCato]

Originally Posted by Bobsk8
You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

...and you have Dog Owners and "Breeders" that appear to be in the spotlight with their dogs Politically, that are just down right Prejudice if their not promoting them selves. We all know "people" like that.
Those are the "people" who go dog through dog, breed through breed, till they get a "political" example for self promotions. Then cast reputable knowledge of themselves Publicly while all the dogs they abandoned along the way created this mess were discussing right now. Personally, I don't know of a Pit Bull breeder like this, but I know a Rottweiler breeder like this.
I'm just assuming there's more Pit Bull band wagoneers hence this topic.

.... I wish my closest city would allow a dog park, the people of the community tried for it these past few years but, the city chooses not to.
... unless of course someone else foots the bill and liability... it crossed my mind a few times. I don't think a dog park and pub owner would look too good. LOL
... sell one for the other right?

anyhow ... "Guns don't shoot people, people shoot people" .. it's a shame for the Pit Bull, it is truely the people who ownes them for their demise.

[Bobsk8]

So pitts should be banned because they're bigger than a pom and can do more dammage? I've NEVER been attacked by a pitt, I HAVE been attacked by a pom. So why should I want to ban pitts and not poms??

What if I approached you with this...

Smokey looks to be a LOT bigger than a pom. She looks like she could do some dammage if she wanted to. I think you should have her destroyed. I want you to destroy your dog because I think she's big enough to hurt me.

Now does that sound fair and reasonable?? No? Why not? Mixed breed dogs of that size have bitten people many times and will again. Just because you've never seen it on the six o-clock news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Ptts have attacked people, so have dogs like Smokey. If it is fair to say that Pitts should be banned because they are capable of hurting people, then it is also fair to say dogs like yours should also be banned because they are also capable of hurting people.

Or how about this, more people are killed in this country every year by CARS than guns, knives, bombs, and animals all put together. If you have a drivers license you are one of the most dangerous people in the world. Surrender your license and turn your vehicle over to the state to be scrapped. Does that sound reasonable? No you say? You're a safe driver? All the death and carnage is caused by bad drivers? Well guess what dude, there are a LOT of safe pitt owners out there. And there are a LOT more bad drivers than there are bad pitt owners.

Five years ago I was T-boned by somebody driving a white Chevy Lumina. BAN CHEVY LUMINAS!! BAN THEM NOW!!!

Bottom line is that many Pits are D/A because that has been passed down via their breeding. Just like hounds like to track, and pointers like to hunt and herding dogs like to herd, Pitts like to attack....... You can talk and talk and talk, but many Pitts have that knee jerk reaction to other dogs. I know it, otherr dog owners know it, the victims and the dogs that have been attacked