dominace help guys [Archive] - Chazhound Dog Forum

rabbitsarebetter

12-31-2006, 09:08 AM

First of all let me say that Ruckus is no longer in obedience class. I simply cannot afford it at the moment, and at our last lesson she did something that made me even more uneasy. She was talking all this wolf talk, and alpha crap, and mentioned holding him by the scruff of the neck and shaking him if he will not listen KNOWING he is a nervous and bit handshy dog.

Ruckus goes on play dates and he usually plays well. But with my sister in laws lab he displays lots of dominance behavior. They will play well until Goose (lab) gets tired and lays down. Ruckus still has lots of energy left! He will hump him, nip him (not hard), try holding him down by his neck, and pretty well will not leave him alone. And Goose will get fed up with it and hold Ruckus down by the neck. All of this looks playful but I have heard its dominance behavior and it is going too far. is this correct? Should I stop him from doing this? when it gets to a certain point i stop it....

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance. He keeps doing that to the rabbits. in my opinion there is no need to him to be showing his status to rabbits. is this something i need to stop? I stop it if he is harassing them too much.

rabbitsarebetter

12-31-2006, 09:13 AM

i would make another thread but i will ask here. can someone recommend me a good training book. i made a post before on this and got lots of help but the post got sucked in oblivion and i forgot the names of the books :(
i did get one book "the dog listener"
not so sure how good it is. she keeps comparing dogs to wolves

Doberluv

12-31-2006, 09:23 AM

I don't see this as dominance, but play. He wants the play to continue. I would step in if he's bugging the other animals and re-direct him to something else which he can be reinforced for. Seperate him for a while. Let him know that doing that will get him nothing. But doing this something else will get him something even better.

I'm glad you're not still going to that obedience class. That trainer sounds terrible....man handling a dog who simply hasn't learned something yet.

Distract, re-direct to something else. Take baby steps and reinforce small improvements. A reward must be something the dog really loves and must change behavior in order to be a reinforcer. A reinforcer is the only thing which causes a behavior to be repeated. So you have to beat out the competition with your motivation or reinforcer. You also sometimes need to set up the situation so that your motivator becomes more valuable. Sometimes that means bringing your dog away from the stimulus of the other dog or rabbit. I wouldn't leave your dog around your rabbits unattented. They are prey, after all.

Keep practicing at home his obedience skills until you can afford a training class...just a couple of short sessions a day and ask for sit/wait and other little things during the course of the day. But next time, find a trainer who understands how dogs learn and uses gentle methods. The play dates are great so socialization can continue.

Make sure he's getting enough exercise and brain work. This all helps him mature and helps with behavior in general. He'll be fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about this. Dogs play rough and some are persistant like Rucus. Lyric is like that. They wrap their legs around or over the other's back or neck and wrestle and it's just play. If they're not fighting, drawing blood, don't worry.

Doberluv

12-31-2006, 09:25 AM

I don't like The Dog Listener. I think she's way off into la la land. Some books I recommend highly are: Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, The Power of Positive Training, by Pat Miller, Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor. There are other good ones too. But I'd start with Culture Clash to be sure. Excellent!

Brandyb

12-31-2006, 09:59 AM

I would definately try and disourage this behaviour. He is obviously getting overly stimulated during play, and can not stop himself when play is supposed to end. My guess would be his frustrations are coming out in the form of dominance displays that don't really mean anything but "come on, get up, I still want to play".
I would correct the behaviour with an "aggghhh" sound by you, or some other loud noise, to distract him, place him in a sit, or down for a minute or two, reward him while in the position, and then, when settled, allow him back to play. This method works very well if used consistantly - you need to make sure that you correct this behaviour each and every time.
Just out of curiosity (I haven't been on this board long) is your dog neutered?
You previous trainer really didn't sound great, and its a good thing that you're not going back.
I recommend any of Stanley Coren's books as a base for understanding dog behaviour, and in turn, helps you with your training. I like his books and highly recommend them because they give you more of a scientific insight (but a fairly easy read) on why dogs act the way they do, which really does help with your training methods.
Good luck! :)

rabbitsarebetter

12-31-2006, 12:46 PM

yup he is altered. thanks for the help so far guys :)

Jynx

12-31-2006, 06:13 PM

some dogs know who they can push buttons with..It sounds like he knows how far he can push the lab so he's gonna do it. It sounds like "rough play" with the lab, again, the lab doesn't seem concerned about it? so he's not going to stop probably until the lab puts him in his place..He also could be getting over stimulated in play as well.

As for the rabbits, THAT I would put a halt to, I would work with him to "go easy" with the rabbits, believe me shelties are no dummies, they know what they can get away with and worked with, know when they aren't supposed to get rough with other animals..Rabbits, can be a real prey instigator tho, so I would monitor that really carefully and start working on a good "leave it" command when things get to rough in your opinion.

I also like the books Doberluv mentions.( and no I wouldn't be scruff shaking a dog who is skiddish, intimidated, headshy, HOWEVER, if a dog can take a correction like that and it's warranted, I would have no problem doing it, in other words if that type of correction is going to send the dog into "meltdown",no I wouldnt, but if it's going to be effective and taken as it is intended, I wouldn't hesitate if warranted)
Diane

rabbitsarebetter

12-31-2006, 08:30 PM

thanks :)
he knows the "gentle" command with the rabbit, but he doesnt always listen to me. maybe he actually doesnt know it as well as i think. i would rather him know a leave it command so i will work with him on that.

so far if he gets too rowdy with the rabbits (that is a pretty rare occasion but it does happen) i make him lay down and not get up until i give him the release command. so far thats a whole 10 minutes comfortably.

Doberluv

12-31-2006, 08:36 PM

I don't think scruffing a dog is EVER warrented and can put a dog on the defensive. Anytime you put a dog on the defensive, you risk not only getting bitten, but also damaging the trust your dog has in you. It's never a good idea to make a dog think you're attacking him. There ARE other ways to modify behavior.

Anyhow...just my .02.

dr2little

12-31-2006, 08:42 PM

Doberluv

12-31-2006, 09:04 PM

Thanks Dr2little. Hey! We could really make some money if we keep doubling 2cents every day. LOL.

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance.

My dogs play and they play rough. They leap up like a horse rearing and throw their "arms" around eachother. Then one will get on all fours and the other swings the front leg over the other again. Then they go roaring off and turn and crash into eachother yet again. This is outside. That rough of play I don't allow inside. They're just playing and I don't even think about dominance. I don't care about it. I don't allow them to think about. LOL.

Here's Lyric being "dominant" over Chuli:
http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data/500/medium/toke_lyree_chuli_jose1.JPG
Here's Toker being "dominant." LOL.
http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data/500/medium/snuggle_bugs1.JPG

Someday soon I'll get a couple of pictures to show you how they play roughly and do indeed use their legs to wrestle. Humans aren't the only ones who wrastle using their limbs. Kangaroos do it too. LOL.

In other words, I wouldn't worry too much unless the Lab is clearly bothered and defensless to stop your dog from tormenting him. If he looks like he's not having fun anymore, then I'd step in and give Ruckus something else to do.

otch1

12-31-2006, 09:21 PM

.06 from me, do we hear .08? Lol. Rabbitsarebetter, I'm going to guess that way back when, when you first discussed your uneasiness with this trainer, you didn't go to her and have that one on one talk with her? Let her know what you were comfortable with, how you wanted to handle your dog, before you continued training? If you did, I'm sorry things somehow still went south, this far into training. Ruckus has had issues from day one and I'm hoping you don't give up on finding a good trainer. In the meantime, some good books were mentioned! Doberluv, your babies look so content... what is that little shaved body next to your Chi, under the stove?!

Doberluv

12-31-2006, 10:06 PM

Otch, I have been lucky and blessed to have such an aimiable little crew. They all are crazy about eachother and I have very rarely any trouble between them.

That little body is Jose. The light must be hitting him in such a way as to make him appear shaved, but he's not. LOL.

Here's a better picture of Jose sitting next to Chulita on a moss covered boulder.

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data/500/medium/chuli_and_jose_on_hike.JPG

Rabbitsarebetter, I agree with Otch. Don't let that training experience sour you on trainers. There will be some who are more in line with how your gut feelings are. You just need to check them out more, watch a session before signing up. Maybe when you save up some money, you can try again.

silverpawz

12-31-2006, 10:16 PM

also, is it true that when a dog "pets" another dog or puts his arm around it that its a sign of dominance.

It may not be dominance, but it can be considered 'rude'. For example, I had a GSD here a while ago that would walk up to another dog, prick his ears, stick his tail over his back and smack the dog with his paw on the back.

That's clearly rude behavior, and the other dog was not impressed.

Now, one of my Collies will also 'smack' another dog on the back with his paw, but he follows it up with a play-bow. It's clear he wants to play and he's starting a game of 'tag'.

You have to take into consideration your dog's body language when this happens, that will tell you if it's rude behavior, or just play.

Herschel

01-01-2007, 04:37 PM

$.08 cents from me! Why would anyone want to hurt their dog? It isn't going to create any sort of lasting bond. Scruffing is totally unwarranted.

Jynx

01-01-2007, 04:51 PM

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 06:28 PM

There are instances, in my opinion and depending on the dog, when a scruff shake can be warranted, no I don't advocate a novice doing this and it isn't done for an inappropriate behavior that other methods would work to correct.

Could you give an example of an instance where you think a scruff shake is warranted? Also, what would you consider an appropriate behavior where other methods would not work? And why would other methods not work? Which methods? Can you explain which methods might not work and why?

And when you say, "depending on the dog," are we still talking about domestic dogs? What kind of dog do you mean? Do you feel that dogs learn in vastly different ways from one another or between breeds, that behavioral learning science is only applicable to certain breeds of dogs or certain temperaments of dogs...that the main principles of learning do not apply across the board? I don't mean small variations within a training concept or philosophy. I mean different main concepts.

How would it be more beneficial for an experienced trainer say, to do this scruffing rather than a novice? How would it benefit the dog? What differences might there be between an experienced person and a novice where by with the experienced person, the scruffing would be good for the dog?

Just interested in or curious about your take on this.

dr2little

01-01-2007, 06:45 PM

I certainly agree this dog should not have been "scruffed" by the trainer, but we can agree to disagree about scruff shaking in general..There are instances, in my opinion and depending on the dog, when a scruff shake can be warranted, no I don't advocate a novice doing this and it isn't done for an inappropriate behavior that other methods would work to correct.

Diane

I agree with you that scruff grabs are not for a novice. Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either. There is NEVER an excuse or a behavior that would warrent such abuse..EVER.:confused:

BostonBanker

01-01-2007, 07:00 PM

Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either.

That reminds me of a common saying regarding people who use "gadgets" such as drawreins while training their horses - "If you are good enough to use them, then you don't need them." In other words, the people who have the neccessary skills to use the equipment without accidently punishing the horse are good enough to do it without the gadget.

I'll bring it up to an even dime;) .

Having said that, I've noticed that the border collie at our barn frequently initiates play by putting a paw on the other dog's shoulder. I don't think the other dogs read it as a dominance gesture, as he is one of the best "players" I've ever seen. He is one of only two adult dogs I've ever seen Meg really play with - everyone loves him!

dr2little

01-01-2007, 07:07 PM

That reminds me of a common saying regarding people who use "gadgets" such as drawreins while training their horses - "If you are good enough to use them, then you don't need them." In other words, the people who have the neccessary skills to use the equipment without accidently punishing the horse are good enough to do it without the gadget.

I'll bring it up to an even dime;) .

Having said that, I've noticed that the border collie at our barn frequently initiates play by putting a paw on the other dog's shoulder. I don't think the other dogs read it as a dominance gesture, as he is one of the best "players" I've ever seen. He is one of only two adult dogs I've ever seen Meg really play with - everyone loves him!

Wow, we're really raking in the cash!!;)

You're right BB, Sophie plays with lots of dogs who use their paws over her shoulder. It isn't her play style but she's not one to put up with dominance displays either and it never bothers her when dogs place their paws accross her back in play. I think that dominance theories are way too over used. We need to open our eyes and watch instead of compartmentalizing behaviors into buzz terms. So many other subtle cues are required to tell the entire story.

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 07:09 PM

I agree with you that scruff grabs are not for a novice. Having said that, it pretty much eliminates the need because no experienced trainer would ever have to resort to scruff grabbing either. There is NEVER an excuse or a behavior that would warrent such abuse..EVER.

I agree with you Doc. I am just curious as to what explanation could be given and I'm just sure there's a remedy which we can talk about in regards to the example given. I think it would be nice for people to learn how to train and handle dogs without using human hands in anything that can be construed by the dog as an attack because like you said, experienced trainers and dog people do not ever have to resort to that no matter what kind of dog. A sensative dog, we can pretty much agree would be crushed by that. A harder, less sensative dog could become dangerous and aggressive with that treatment. I'm curious what is thought by Jynx to be beneficial as far as teaching a dog something by scruff shaking a dog. What information does the dog get from this?

OK Boston....I'll raise ya a nickle.

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 07:11 PM

We need to open our eyes and watch instead of compartmentalizing behaviors into buzz terms. So many other subtle cues are required to tell the entire story.

That is so good, so true.

dr2little

01-01-2007, 07:12 PM

I'm curious what is thought by Jynx to be beneficial as far as teaching a dog something by scruff shaking a dog. What information does the dog get from this?

OK Boston....I'll raise ya a nickle.

Me too Doberluv. I'd really like to know what circumstance would cause anyone to use a scruff grab???

Are we really up to 15 cents......CA CHING!:D

rabbitsarebetter

01-01-2007, 08:42 PM

dr2little

01-01-2007, 09:04 PM

well in that situation she did that and told me to do it myself just because he didnt sit within seconds of me telling him too. he was distracted....
no i am not going back to her, she oviously is not doing things right.
although she has a degree in this, and has done training for many many years and titled so many dogs in obidence... her methods stink

You're absolutely right Rabbit, her methods DO STINK and I'm sorry you've had such a poor experience. There really are some great trainers out there who would never lay a hand on your dog in order to help you with training.

Do you need help finding someone else? I'd be happy to help you to research other trainers in your area.

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 09:09 PM

You've got a good head on your shoulders Rabbitsarebetter. See? There you have it yet again....the common thing where people are projecting human stuff on dogs. The dog is being naughty, stubborn, defiant and "knows" better but just won't do it. Real behavioral scientists would say that the dog doesn't think that way at all. It's not relevant whether or not he "knows." He never "knows." He simply repeats that which he has had a strong history of reinforcements for. Period. If he's not sitting quickly enough, he needs more practice and the timing of the delivery of the reinforcement needs to be refined and fine tuned. The reinforcer needs to be regulated so that he learns step by step to get his sits quicker and quicker. It is up to the trainer to elicit the response which is closer and closer to what is wanted, not to be the entire responsibility of the dog. He's just a dog.

Attacking a dog with a scruff shake imparts no useful information as to how much quicker you want the sit to be. It confuses a dog and is nothing but bullying an innocent animal who happens to not have the same values as we do. What in God's name is useful to the survival of a dog in sitting more quickly? Why should he "know" that that is something we value so highly and he is doing "wrong?" Why should he even care if we value that or not? He is not a moral creature and certainly doesn't understand our morals. LOL. What's in it for him? It's a matter of training. That's all it is. And bullying a dog is not training.

I'm so glad you see it that way and you can find out how to train your dog better and better on your own until you can afford a decent trainer....if you even decide to go that route.

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 09:11 PM

Missed you post Dr2little while I was expounding on my soap box. LOL.

Rubylove

01-01-2007, 09:50 PM

I'm a little surprised Doberluv that you think Jan Fennell is a bit of a nutter :D. I think she was a pioneer in new and much more positive training methods, and gives some good insight into possible reasons for behaviours.

Having said that, I actually don't agree with all of her theories (I think `dominance' theories are mostly pointless, way misunderstood and do more harm than good) but some of her methods work wonders. Particularly the ignoring thing. It's hard but it works - but I actually don't agree that it's because of alpha behaviours. That could be part of it, but I feel more that it's because of the pay-off/opportunistic nature of dogs. If they don't get a pay-off they don't repeat the behaviour. It's pretty simple - and not necessarily all to do with ancient pack behaviours!!

Sorry for the hijack!

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 10:13 PM

but some of her methods work wonders. Particularly the ignoring thing. It's hard but it works - but I actually don't agree that it's because of alpha behaviours. That could be part of it, but I feel more that it's because of the pay-off/opportunistic nature of dogs.

Yes, I agree.

Jan: Ignore your dog when he's whining for attention because an alpha wolf will ignore another and you need to act like an alpha to make your dog secure.

Scientific learning theory: Ignore your dog when he whines for attention because that way you're not providing a reinforcer for unwanted behavior and because of behavioral law, that behavior will extinguish without a reinforcer. The dog will learn what works and what doesn't and will know what to do, thereby being secure.

Jan: Eat a cracker before you give your dog his food because alpha wolves eat first and then distribute the food. (actually, this is not necessarily true. The alpha very often brings food to the mom and pups first) But even if it were true, she's saying to pretend you're the alpha wolf and so if your dog sees you eating first, he'll respect you as the leader and won't jump up and knock the bowl out of your hand because subordinate wolves don't jump up on alpha wolves and knock bowls out of their paws.

Scientific learning theory: Control your dog's resources. Ask for a sit first before giving him his meal so he learns manners (to wait) and doesn't knock the bowl out of your hand and spill the food all over the floor. The payoff or reinforcer for his sitting nicely and waiting will be his food. So that behavior of sitting politely will be repeated if he's reinforced for it with food because behaviors which have a payoff are much more likely to be repeated. (law)

Those parallels unfortunately don't continue with all behavior. There are many times where she relates something to pack behavior and it's just not relevant to our domestic dogs. Or she'll compare some behavior to dominance where it isn't dominance at all.

No, she seems like a really kind person and she really loves dogs. I shouldn't have said I don't like her. I mean that I don't like her philosophy where she ties everything to pack behavior and again, like Cesar, pack behaviors which in many cases have been misunderstood. The dominance panacea is way over done IMO. And like Cesar, trying to get humans to pretend like they're dogs or wolves. Eat a cracker first before you feed your dog. Go out doors first. It's nothing but teaching manners, teaching the dog to wait. That's where I see la la land. Again, every conceivable behavior is chalked up to pack theory or some convoluted, obscure reason like dominance. I like her better than Cesar because she does not seem to promote force, flooding, bullying, physical punishment, intimidation etc.

Cesar: When your dog whines, poke him with two fingers into the neck and say "Cheh" because that's what alphas do because they're dominant. And we can't have a whining dog because that means he's staging a take over. He's being dominant. Poor Cesar. He just really doesn't get it about domestic dogs.

Anyhow, I think people lose out when they are taken around the long, convoluted road to behaviorism. They get hung up on a huge array of irrelevant stumbling blocks.

First of all, dogs aren't wolves living out in the woods. Dogs have evolved into something very different and they've evolved to live with humans. And domestic dogs, according to more recent data are more directly descended from a solitary, not a pack animal, albeit they certainly have some instincts left, of course. However, I do not believe they are in a pack with us in the true sense of a packing animal. There is no need. Of course they need a leader, rules, boundaries or they wouldn't co-habitate with us very well. It's how we go about teaching them that is the main difference.

LionRun

01-01-2007, 10:23 PM

well in that situation she did that and told me to do it myself just because he didnt sit within seconds of me telling him too. he was distracted....
no i am not going back to her, she oviously is not doing things right.
although she has a degree in this, and has done training for many many years and titled so many dogs in obidence... her methods stink

Rabbitsarebetter, I am sorry you had such negative experiences. I use the term, "The jerk and startle" method for what you have described--even though your dog was scruffed not jerked. It is catch all term (jerk to heel or sit, scruff, startle, make submit, etc...a)that I originally referred to when speaking of training for AKC Obedience trials in the early 1970's. Thank goodness many of us have advanced from those primordial methods.

dr2little

01-01-2007, 10:33 PM

Yes, I agree.

Jan: Ignore your dog when he's whining for attention because an alpha wolf will ignore another and you need to act like an alpha to make your dog secure.

Scientific learning theory: Ignore your dog when he whines for attention because that way you're not providing a reinforcer for unwanted behavior and because of behavioral law, that behavior will extinguish without a reinforcer. The dog will learn what works and what doesn't and will know what to do, thereby being secure.

Jan: Eat a cracker before you give your dog his food because alpha wolves eat first and then distribute the food. (actually, this is not necessarily true. The alpha very often brings food to the mom and pups first) But even if it were true, she's saying to pretend you're the alpha wolf and so if your dog sees you eating first, he'll respect you as the leader and won't jump up and knock the bowl out of your hand because subordinate wolves don't jump up on alpha wolves and knock bowls out of their paws.

Scientific learning theory: Control your dog's resources. Ask for a sit first before giving him his meal so he learns manners (to wait) and doesn't knock the bowl out of your hand and spill the food all over the floor. The payoff or reinforcer for his sitting nicely and waiting will be his food. So that behavior of sitting politely will be repeated if he's reinforced for it with food because behaviors which have a payoff are much more likely to be repeated. (law)

No, she seems like a really kind person and she really loves dogs. I shouldn't have said I don't like her. I mean that I don't like her philosophy where she ties everything to pack behavior and again, like Cesar, pack behaviors which in many cases have been misunderstood. The dominance panacea is way over done IMO. And like Cesar, trying to get humans to pretend like they're dogs or wolves. Eat a cracker first before you feed your dog. Go out doors first. It's nothing but teaching manners, teaching the dog to wait. That's where I see la la land. Again, every conceivable behavior is chalked up to pack theory or some convoluted, obscure reason like dominance. I like her better than Cesar because she does not seem to promote force, flooding, bullying, physical punishment, intimidation etc.

Cesar: When your dog whines, poke him with two fingers into the neck and say "Cheh" because that's what alphas do because they're dominant. And we can't have a whining dog because that means he's staging a take over. He's being dominant. Poor Cesar. He just really doesn't get it about domestic dogs.

Anyhow, I think people lose out when they are taken around the long, convoluted road to behaviorism. They get hung up on a huge array of irrelevant stumbling blocks.

So true Doberluv and I LOVE the part about Cesar and his "finger teeth",..."Cheh" what a dumba$$:rolleyes: ...... about as real, believable and applicable to a dog as an air guitar is to a rock band....:rolleyes: I wonder what that guy was smokin when he decided that his fingers were now magically seen by all canids as TEETH...WOOOOOO SPOOKY!!:D

It's all about cause and effect, a predictable life, predictable consequences....and kindness. I really get a bit miffed when everything is chalked up to this theory or that old study...dominant this..aggressive that. Lots of words to over explain simple cause and effect...

I'm not a "Jan fan" either and Cesar...well you know we're on the same page there.
At least there are newer, more reasonable studies and explanations for what we see our dogs do and less justification for some of the crazy, overkill types of methods used to change or maintain behaviors.

LionRun

01-01-2007, 10:52 PM

doberluv and dr2little, great posts!

silverpawz

01-01-2007, 11:08 PM

So true Doberluv and I LOVE the part about Cesar and his "finger teeth",..."Cheh" what a dumba$$ ...... about as real, believable and applicable to a dog as an air guitar is to a rock band.... I wonder what that guy was smokin when he decided that his fingers were now magically seen by all canids as TEETH...WOOOOOO SPOOKY!!

Whatever it was, I'd like some. :D

Still, I have to admit, what he does produces results, the dog stops the behavior. Average dog owners won't realize that they're stopping out of fear in some cases or shutting down in others. We see it for what it is and the trouble it can cause because we know there are easier ways to get the result without making a dog handshy or fearful.

But the general public sees it as magic, because it appears to work. And really, it DOES work, and some dogs can take it without any ill effects, others won't, I think we just disagree with the ends he uses to achive the means.

I'm honestly suprised he doesn't get bit more often when he does that. If someone was poking me, I'd be pissed.

Brattina88

01-01-2007, 11:33 PM

good one Doberluv !
as always, I agree with you two :p

Silver - I think you've hit the nail right on the head. The public sees a single episode of a dog magically being "fixed" in, what? 5 or 10mins? He's so popular, and despite his dogs being 'extreme' cases, or whatnot, I meet a lot of people who try his 'techniques' :rolleyes:

Every episode I've watched he does get bit (I've watched all of the first season and thats it. My friend rented it so I made good use of it. Watched it with her and annoyingly pointed out every little detail of how dumb I think Cesar is LOL)

Heck, if he did that to a dog (especially one of mine!) in my presence, I'd bite him myself :D

Doberluv

01-01-2007, 11:43 PM

If someone was poking me, I'd be pissed.
Yeah, no kidding.

Well, I have been pondering along the way as the days go by and I read the words in many posts, "it works"....meaning, a behavior that isn't wanted stops or a behavior that is wanted is repeated. But I think we all have different standards and/or meanings of what it means to work. Simply having a behavior stop does not equal "working" to me. I want more than just stopping a behavior or getting a behavior. I want a whole lot more....stuff that goes with it. And I think people are often leaving those things out of the equation when they watch Cesar or use compulsive methods. So, when they see what they think works with Cesar's methods, that's all they're seeing. They're blind IMO to the whole picture of what potential there really is.

Rubylove

01-02-2007, 12:04 AM

Doberluv - I haven't read or watched anything on Cesar Milan - all I have heard is negatives and to go exploring would just make me mad. What you wrote about the whole two fingers thing - I mean, seriously, do people believe that stuff??? It just sounds so completely juvenile. Staging a takeover when your dog whines??? What??? Sorry, it's just so laughable.

I had to explain to a client the other day that when her dog jumps up on the lounge it is NOT being dominant - it's just more comfortable on the lounge.

Honestly, she and her husband just didn't want to know - they had it so ingrained in them that any kind of behaviour - anything - was a `dominance issue'. It is so frustrating - they got it in the end when I explained a few other things along the same lines, but man it took a while.

That's why what `works' is so different to what `helps'. If you hit your dog enough it will probably stop doing whatever you're hitting it for - so that `works', too. But it doesn't help anything, and in fact just makes things worse. That is too often the case, sadly, with many methods that are so popular - including the efforts of those such as Mr Milan.

Doberluv

01-02-2007, 12:57 AM

Staging a takeover when your dog whines??? What??? Sorry, it's just so laughable.

I didn't actually see an episode where he said that. That was just an example of other things...the dog is in a hurry to get outside for a walk. (probably because he likes to go for walks and is eager to go have fun) And he says that the dog has it in his mind that he is leading the pack, like on a hunt. And since you are the alpha, you need to lead the hunt and he has to stay behind you. Along side you in heel position isn't good enough. Or the dog hasn't learned to not rush out the door when it is opened, hasn't learned to wait. He is being dominant so you need to poke him in the neck with your fingers (aka teeth) and step toward him with your shoulders up and your chest big so you're like the big alpha wolf. It couldn't be because he hasn't been reinforced for waiting until given a release word. It's all about dominance and pack rubbish.

Rubylove

01-02-2007, 01:09 AM

Our dogs have been super spoilt lately - SUPER spoilt (we should know better but we can't help it sometimes!) but you can sure see how it comes out in their behaviour. The minute they get to do whatever they want and WE slacken off they take advantage of it like you wouldn't believe!! They had stopped listening to us at the park, and as soon as that happened we were like, ok back to our normal behaviour. Basically, they'd been getting lots of cuddles on the bed, lots of attention all the time, cuddles and pats and hugs whenever they wanted them, we'd pretty much stopped NILIF - soooo bad of us - especially me because I'm always telling my clients not to do that!

We have both been overcome lately with super-loving feelings for the doggers, and so as a result they have turned into spoiled children!! Now, lots of what they've been doing would be misinterpreted as `dominance' by people like Cesar. However, all it took was ONE night of back to NILIF and not gushing over them every time they breathed and they were back to their normal selves. Sitting and waiting politely by the door, coming when called, sitting for their dinner, and so on. They were just doing what we'd reinforced them to do, and as soon as we stopped reinforcing their `naughtiness' they topped being `naughty'! If THAT isn't enough of an example of the way they think I don't know what is! Dominance my butt - they were just being dogs!

Jeesh, a well-trained dog has good manners and knows what is expected of it. `Bad behaviour' has nothing to do with dominance - and everything to do with what works for the dog and especially whether they've been trained in a way that makes sense to them AS DOGS. I wish more people in positions where they reach a lot of dog owners could see that.

Doberluv

01-02-2007, 02:05 AM

Well put. I didn't know you were training. What did I miss? Anyhow.....congrats!

Jynx

01-02-2007, 06:34 PM

Since I'm not that computer savvy to go back and forth between pages and answer all of Doberluv's q's..I am ALL for positive training, but at some point in time you are going to come across a dog that a positive method does not work for. (I'm being general here and NOT breed specific).

So what do YOU do if a dog commits a serious infraction in your household? As in trying to or god forbid bite a kid/ a person? Or tries /does attack another pet in your household? What do you do "at that precise moment" And don't say "well he needs better leadership, he needs to be destroyed, it wouldn't happen in my household, etc" The deed has been done, now what?

What do you do IF it happened, at that "precise moment"?

A serious infraction in my opinion IS biting/trying to bite a person or another animal.

I do not advocate owners or anyone doing this to their dogs, I don't advocate trainers doing it to anyone's dog, in fact I would be mighty PO'd if a trainer tried to correct my dog , I Correct my dog . I do not go around scruff shaking my dogs or anyone elses, for "training" issues. It's counterproductive for training issues. but when a dog commits a serious infraction as I've listed above, there needs to be an immediate consequence and one that is going to come down hard on the dog.

I have certainly scruff shaked my male aussie who had my cat pinned and was going to town on him, and you can bet I'd do it again, he did it twice in his life and has never done it again, LEAVE IT was not working with him, and beleive me he has never suffered for it, nor lost trust in me.

If he was an unconfident dog it probably would have sent him into meltdown and I wouldn't have done it in the first place if I didn't think he was a dog who would "get my point and move on".

My dogs were not raised and trained to be nasty to people/kids/animals, there have been probably 2-3 instances in all their lives where a behavior they demonstrated was NOT acceptable and I considered serious enough to warrant a scruff shake. Did it hurt them? Not at all.

Diane

Rubylove

01-02-2007, 07:21 PM

Probably not - but I wonder if those episodes of scruff shaking or `coming down hard' triggered those two or three incidents in the first place. Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a go at you at all, but I don't consider having episodes `serious enough to warrant' physical correction to be an entirely stable dog.

You never answer violence with violence, is one of my cardinal rules in training and under no circumstances should it ever be broken. You can be lucky if there are no repercussions, but really that's all it is - luck.

You asked what should be done at that precise moment, well, this is what I would do. I would remove the dog from the situation firmly, no eye contact, no speaking, no noise of any kind, just definitely and firmly remove him to a place where is alone, ignored and unstimulated. Time-out is an opportunity for dogs to settle down when they are feeling agitated, and it also serves a more important purpose and that is to show the dog that any kind of behaviour such as whatever it was he was displaying is unacceptable and results in total isolation - complete removal from the source. That way there is NO pay-off and NO reinforcement of the behaviour. Misbehave - you're on your own. It gets the message through as thoroughly and in a much more meaningful way than a scruff shake or an alpha roll or anything like this.

Of course - if there was a dog with serious aggression problem you would handle the situation differently but STILL with no physical punishment or violence. It simply does not fix the problem. It might work in the short-term, but you have not got to the bottom of the reasons behind the aggression, so physical correction is a poor and dangerous band-aid approach.

But in situations like the one you mention with your cat - well, your dog was being a dog. There were a number of pay-offs in that situation for your dog, and by treating it with aggression you may have taught it to associate aggressive behaviour with the cat. Your dog may behave beautifully towards that cat for ten years and then something may trigger the memory and the cat will suffer for it. Hopefully (probably) this will not happen, but it's not the best approach.

Of course, when you are confronted with a situation like this you often react on gut instinct, much as you would with a child, and with a child you could growl and scold and pull the child away, but it would understand you and understand your reasoning. I'm not saying to do that with children, my point is at some level they know where you're coming from. With a dog it's different - it's all about cause and effect. One of the most effective methods of correction is isolation. They hate it, and they will try to avoid it.

So your dog is still being `punished' I suppose, for want of a better word, but there is no aggression or violence involved.

You need to think like a dog, not like a human, before methods like this start to make sense, but once they do, most people wonder how they ever thought any other way.

silverpawz

01-02-2007, 07:45 PM

You never answer violence with violence, is one of my cardinal rules in training and under no circumstances should it ever be broken.

If a dog is attacking another animal or person, I'm going to get the dog off even if I have to use violence to do so. When it comes to the saftey of other living beings, I won't pussy foot around in fear of damaging a dog's spirit and risk serious injury to the one being bitten because I didn't act quickly or firmly enough to stop it. If I have to grab the dog's scruff and yank him off, you better belive I will.

We train and practice and supervise and try hard to prevent these things from happening, but sometimes they do regardless and in those situations there's no room for gentle methods. You get the dog off, whatever way you have too.

I would remove the dog from the situation firmly, no eye contact, no speaking, no noise of any kind, just definitely and firmly remove him to a place where is alone, ignored and unstimulated. Time-out is an opportunity for dogs to settle down when they are feeling agitated, and it also serves a more important purpose and that is to show the dog that any kind of behaviour such as whatever it was he was displaying is unacceptable and results in total isolation

Dogs live in the moment. He's not going to realize that he's in a room alone because of what he did 20 seconds ago. That walk from the fight, to the isolation room is mighty long in dog-time. The dog may calm down, but he's not thinking, "gee, I better not be aggressive anymore or else they'll put me in this room again".

No. That isn't how it works. If you want to make an impression that a certain behavior is unaccptable, it needs to be done IN the moment to have any effect at all. Just like you have to reward within a certain time frame when you're teaching a command for the dog to associate the food with the command, you also have to correct within a certain time frame for them to assciate the correction with the behavior.

Not to mention that the payoff for fighting, far outweighs the negatives of being put in a room alone.

I'm not saying go yank the snot out of your dogs if they fight or aggress, I'm just pointing out that using a time out for such behavior is not as effective as many people assume it is.

Personally, I'd grab the dog and make him lie down and stay right there on the spot. (and none of this "he won't lie down" crap. That's what training is for.) Then we'd run through some obedience drills.

Rubylove

01-02-2007, 07:55 PM

How did I know there would be a post from you directly after mine? :D

I think you didn't read my post aright. I said that a time-out method wouldn't work for more serious aggression, it was a method I would use in a situation like the one with the cat, and was aimed specifically at that situation.

I also disagree that removing a dog from a situation is not immediate enough. Taking your dog away the second something happens and placing him in isolation is related directly to the act itself, and is not confusing for the dog if done instantaneously. I also did not say that you can't physically handle the dog when you do this - I would take the dog by the scruff or collar to lead him away, of course - the dog needs to be removed, not to decide to remove itself.

Again, I reiterate that it is not what I would do in a situation of more serious aggression such as you point out, I'm saying that I would use it for infractions such as the one I initially responded to.

silverpawz

01-02-2007, 08:05 PM

How did I know there would be a post from you directly after mine?

:D Because I can't keep my trap shut half the time. My fingers, they itch to type. I know everyone is always so excited to read my thoughtful and helpful replies, so I didn't want to dissapoint. ;)

I said that a time-out method wouldn't work for more serious aggression

I did miss the part where you said it wouldn't work for serious aggression.

Still, I personally don't feel that time outs are effective for treating any sort of aggression, or any sort of behavior problem for that matter.

They do serve a purpose to give the dog and the humans a chance to cool off, but no, I don't believe it's imediet enough to have a lasting effect.

I'm sure there are people who claim to have success with this way, and certainly there are some dogs who eventually make the connection, but it takes much longer and more repetions to sink in. And again, being isolated is not enough of a deterant for many dogs to stop the behavior if the reward outweighs the punishment.

Rubylove

01-02-2007, 08:10 PM

You know - you're right, and I should have said that in my view it's a great way to initially dispel a situation and should always be followed up by obedience drills and so forth, as you pointed out.

It is NOT a `cure' for behaviour issues - because whilst effective it is hard, as you say, to get it right and make it immediate, and then you can be left in a situation where the dog is sitting in a room wondering what on earth it's doing there...lol. And it can be time consuming as well.

But I have to say that in puppies in particular, it's highly effective, and I have always had a lot of success with it. But I think I might have made it out to be the be-all and end-all and it's not - just a small component of a bigger picture.

Doberluv

01-02-2007, 09:59 PM

If you want to make an impression that a certain behavior is unaccptable, it needs to be done IN the moment to have any effect at all.

I don't think in the moment while the dog is acting aggressively to any animal or person is the time for training or trying to make any impression. It is an emergency and you have to manage the situation any way you can, whether you yank the dog off, take a 2x4 and shove it inbetween his teeth, whatever. At that moment, that emergency, you have to think about managing and not think about training.

Later, when things are calmed down is the time to analyze and address the catalyst which is causing the dog to react however it is he's reacting. Then it's time to make a plan on how you're going to desensatize or counter condition the dog to whatever the stimuli is which is setting him off. There can be many causes of aggression and they vary in how they're dealt with depending on what's going on...or what is surmised as to what's going on in the dog's psyche. Using aggressive, harsh methods to help a dog with aggression issues is counter productive. At best it supresses the behavior for the time being....but it can create a time bomb of a dog and regression is very common.

A dog can be condtioned to whatever the stimuli is by turning the absense of the stimuli into the reward... at first. (if it's something say...that the dog wants to go away) Then transforming the stiumuli to become paired with the reward or reinforcer. All this is done gradually under controlled situations....distance is controlled, intensity of the stimuli is controlled.

You cannot train a dog at the moment he is in full attack mode. He's likely in fight or flight and he can't think anyhow. You can only manage the immediate danger.

silverpawz

01-02-2007, 10:10 PM

Weather or not you should correct in the moment wasn't my point.

I was only trying to explain that should a person be so inclined to attempt to show the dog a certain behavior is unaccpetable, then you must act in the moment and not afterward if you want the dog to associate your action with the behavior.

Doberluv

01-02-2007, 11:02 PM

Time outs in and of themselves are taking place after the 3 seconds that are needed for the dog to make a connection between his behavior and the time out, yes. Agreed. However, if a time out has happened many times, the act of leading the dog off and away (a secondary negative rein forcer) will be paired with that isolation. He will learn that being lead away is a predictor of social isolation which is an often effective negative reinforcer. IMO. I've seen it work with my own dogs too. (not aggression issues, but other things....very effective) When the dog is "behaving," and brought back into the social circle or otherwise rewarded, he can connect his behavior with being sociable and getting rewarded. If the dog doesn't perceive being in the social circle as anything good, then another approach would be made. What motivates the dog at the time has to be known. And the situation or scenario needs to be manipulated in such a way that the dog is likely to succeed, thereby being reinforced. Of course, timing and delivery of reinforcers have an effect on training.

In the case of a dog fight or other upset, I don't think that is the time to deal with it, only to manage it. I know it wasn't your point, but nevertheless I think it's important because most people assume they need to do something right then and there to teach their dog a lesson as to what's "acceptable." And hence the scruff shaking, jowl lifting or other aversives. A dog in such an agitated state especially, is very prone to re-direct his aggression on the person who is doing this. And that IMO is the wrong approach. Words like "unacceptable" are so not about what the dog is capable of understanding in the way humans understand what's acceptable. That is purely a human concept based on our own morals and values. Training is training. It's systematic. There are ways. It is not about projecting our ideals of acceptability onto another specie or showing them who's tougher by scruffing them or otherwise attacking them. That does not impart any useful information. It is dangerous and it's not good leadership or animal husbandry.