Ceasar the dog whisperer

[Maxy24]

I was just wondering how everybody feels about his methods of training. I watched his show once but i don't really like his ways of doing things. Just wondering what you all think.

[sam]

Have you done a search of the forum? I'm pretty sure this topic has been covered and covered and then some.

[Maxy24]

sorry, being lazy i guess:o Next time i'll look before i post.

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I feel his ideas are good but I dont like the way he expresses himself to the dogs. yes, he is a strong believer of pack rank and alpha status but you do not have to be so extreme to show your dog who is alpha. Just my opinion.

[DoglessInSeattle]

Always seems to me that he uses extreme methods on extremely troubled dogs/owners.

Sure would like to see some follow up episodes... One year later, Fido only occassionally attacks the mailperson...

I'll bet his outtakes would sell like hotcakes.

Interesting to me, I saw one episode where Cesar was bleeding. The price of success I suppose.

Regardless, I enjoy his show. I just wish it would move a little faster.

[krisykris]

I love him and his show. I've also read his book and it's helped me a lot, not only to better understand my dogs, but to help me be more assertive and calm in general. I agree that he sees a lot of extreme situations and in his book he recommends positive reinforcement for dogs that do not have massive behavioral problems, but in the cases he deals with other methods are needed.

[IliamnasQuest]

Maxy24 -

If you do a search for "Cesar Millan" or "Dog Whisperer" on this forum you'll come up with a number of discussions which will show a number of people who strongly disagree with Millan's methods.

I object to him on a number of levels, I have to say. His methods are based primarily on force, with little or no knowledge of what has caused the dog to be acting the way it's acting. He uses forceful methods on dogs who are very fearful, forcing them into situations where they become so overwhelmed with fear that they simply give up. He seems to either not notice or not care that these dogs are stressed beyond belief, and simply crows about how well the method worked because the dog has quit fighting him.

Personally I think he has no true understanding of dog behavior. He's found that if he is pushy enough, most dogs will eventually give in and so his brute force creates an IMAGE that he's succeeding, when the reality is that he's downright abusive to these dogs at times.

I also object to his use of the term "whisperer". This term was originally coined to describe someone so in tune with animals that they could "whisper" them into a relaxed, accepting state. Being a whisperer holds a connotation of kindness and understanding, neither of which can be used to describe Millan. He's simply a man with a dominating personality who has some charisma and evidently knows someone in Hollywood, because he had to have known someone to get where he is now. NO one like this guy should be on TV promoting methods based on force.

I've seen tremendously aggressive dogs turned around with kind, consistent, fair methods - so it's not that these methods HAVE to be used in order to get the same results. The only two things that I agree with Millan on, to an extent, are that dogs need exercise and that humans need to provide leadership. But dogs shouldn't be exercised to the point of exhaustion, and people shouldn't lead by brute force.

That's my honest opinion of this guy. I refuse to call him a trainer and he's eons away from being a behaviorist.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Doberluv]

I agree with everything Melanie said.

He does not know dog behavior, what he interprets from dogs' body language is flat out wrong. He calls dogs dominant who are showing fear or showing an interest in something and not paying attention. They simply haven't been taught yet. He calls dogs dominant who are eager to go for a walk and want to go out the door in a hurry. This is as simple as a dog not having been taught manners....to wait. He finds something like dominance or alpha to explain every conceivable behavior. He takes a more complicated explanation instead of looking for a simpler explanation first, which is always the way a scientist or researcher looks at things. You don't skip a process and go for an obscure or amiguous reason before going through the more obvious reasons to come to a conclusion. He uses catch phrases which have no specific contextual meaning; calm assertive, positive energy, leadership (meaning yank, alpha roll, shove, poke) Where does it say dogs or wolves use a lot of physical stuff to show leadership? Nowhere. No recent research shows that. Alpha wolves (and dogs aren't even wolves) use very, very little physical stuff. They hardly care what's going on at all other than breeding, sometimes hunting and food distribution. Other than that, they don't go around keeping everyone in line constantly. They couldn't care less what the others are doing most of the time. I've read numerous journals and studies on this and what Cesar thinks and does seems so ridiculous, it isn't even funny.

His reliance on the theory of pack behavior is way off base because there's much more recent scientific data which says that dogs evolved from solitary village dogs after evolving from an ancestor of the wolf. These village dogs had no need to be in a pack and our domestic dogs have even less need to be in a pack. They are simply living among us. Pack animals hunt for their food and breed, reproduce and raise young. Our dogs aren't doing any of that. Pack animals MUST be conspecifics. (members of the same specie) Those are the ONLY reasons for a pack. In fact, wolves are not even always in a pack unless these factors are present. Hunting small game does not require a pack formation. Wolves are many times seen by themselves. Some seasons require them to be in a pack. Most packs are nothing more than Mom, Pop and the kids. It's not this big 50 dog thing Cesar calls his pack. That's the most unnatural thing that he has going. Comparing anything when in captivity is not indicative of how it operates in the wild. We are simply not a pack with our dogs. Dogs know we're not their specie.

Sure, we need to be leaders. How else could we have our dogs live peacefully with us and live how we want them to? That does not require force, punishment, aversives and extreme domination. There are other ways to teach dogs how to live with us and go by our ways. All they need is to be taught, to be shown and those methods are best served by appealing to a dog's nature....that he is an opportunist and does what works. So....we make what we want from the dog work for the dog. Operant and classial conditioning based methods are in line with how all mammals learn and are particularily suited for a very opportunistic animal like a dog. It's shown all the time. Many good trainers rehabilitate dogs who are every bit as problematic as the ones Cesar works with. He just doesn't know the science, has a good Hollywood thing going so why fix what ain't broke? He's making millions. I've heard of many regressions with his "methods" on some of those dogs....lots of them. It's all Hollywood hype. He is no whisperer, no mystic ability to communicate with dogs at all. He forces, squelches and supresses behavior so that it stops. Big deal!

Cesar bases all his "methods" and all his interpretation of how dogs behave on a foundation which is misinformed, proven inaccurate and begotten from horribly inaccurately done research which has since been disproven. There is no scientific backing for his ideas. He just grabs onto this old, outdated, disproven nonsense and pretends to know about dogs. All he's doing is shutting down dogs and supressing behavior....not only the target behavior, but most all behavior. He's taking dogs and turning them into toned down versions of a dog, a skeleton of a dog as far as their spirits and personality goes. I saw him yanking the he!! out of a dog's neck the other night on a show (had to change the channel) when the dog turned his head like 3 inches to the left to look at something. The dog was walking nicely but his head moved and Cesar let 'em have it. HARD. This is a ridiculous way to teach a dog. The guy is ridiculous. He's no trainer. I can't believe people fall for this nonsense.

In all fairness, I have seen a few things I think are fine which he does, but just a few. How often do you see him rewarding a dog? His main reward is the absense of punishment. I agree with being calm around a nervous dog. Duh. I agree with giving a dog ample exercise, but not the amount he sometimes promotes. He needs to get these dogs exhausted in order for them to "behave." Many of the dogs he is forcing have their heads down, they're drooling, their ears are laid back, their tails are lowered....all signs of stress. He calls that calm submissive. Yup...their submitting all right. Why is this considered a good thing? Good trainers can get the behavior they want without all that, but instead with a dog who has his head up, ears forward, tail up and jaunty, a lively expression. In fact, this is a requirement for a show dog. You can't have a dog moping along the ring looking submissive.

He's been bitten many times because of forcing a dog, alpha rolling a dog when the dog is terrified. All he had to do was take a little more time and condition or desensatize the dog to the stimuli. Not a lot more time, but a little more. I took a dog who was 20 times worse than one he worked with to cut nails and in three days had this dog accepting it just fine. He got bitten because he was determined to "win." And he cut the nails in ten minutes but got bitten in three places and scratched up too. Ridiculous.

[Maxy24]

yeah one of the things that really bothered me was that he NEVER praised the dogs he just didn't jab them in the neck with his fingers:rolleyes: What he mostly does is just throw the dog in with all his dogs and says they will teach him everything. He tells you that you don't have to praise because in a wolf pack that does not happen, has he noticed that we are not wolves. The thing is i know tons of people who look up to him and use his methods.

[BostonBanker]

When I see a thread on this, I always think I should just skip it, as it's usually the same stuff hashed over yet again. But then I read it, and appreciate seeing well thought out replies like Doberluv and IliamnasQuest's.

To me, I just don't get why anyone would want to train Cesear's way. I can get my point across to my dog and get her to be a willing participant while being nice to her. When I worked at a dog school, I saw numerous dogs with aggression issues who were rehabilitated with positive methods. Why in the world would anyone want to physically or emotionally punish their dogs if they don't have to? I have my dog because I love her, and with completely positive training, she's a wonderful, easy dog who is a delight to own. If I feel the need to take my own personal issues out on something, I'll buy a punching bag.

[krisykris]

yeah one of the things that really bothered me was that he NEVER praised the dogs he just didn't jab them in the neck with his fingers:rolleyes: What he mostly does is just throw the dog in with all his dogs and says they will teach him everything. He tells you that you don't have to praise because in a wolf pack that does not happen, has he noticed that we are not wolves. The thing is i know tons of people who look up to him and use his methods.

I've seen him praise the dogs...

[oriondw]

I dont like him as a trainer. His methods are strange to say the least, and while somewhat effective on some dogs, with other dogs it will get him mauled.

How he treats aggressive dogs is just borderline stupid.


Then again, I dont advocate extreme speed training methods, I think training over longer time with slow exposure and dissentizetion is much more effective in the long run.

[Rubylove]

I agree with everything Melanie said.

He does not know dog behavior, what he interprets from dogs' body language is flat out wrong. He calls dogs dominant who are showing fear or showing an interest in something and not paying attention. They simply haven't been taught yet. He calls dogs dominant who are eager to go for a walk and want to go out the door in a hurry. This is as simple as a dog not having been taught manners....to wait. He finds something like dominance or alpha to explain every conceivable behavior. He takes a more complicated explanation instead of looking for a simpler explanation first, which is always the way a scientist or researcher looks at things. You don't skip a process and go for an obscure or amiguous reason before going through the more obvious reasons to come to a conclusion. He uses catch phrases which have no specific contextual meaning; calm assertive, positive energy, leadership (meaning yank, alpha roll, shove, poke) Where does it say dogs or wolves use a lot of physical stuff to show leadership? Nowhere. No recent research shows that. Alpha wolves (and dogs aren't even wolves) use very, very little physical stuff. They hardly care what's going on at all other than breeding, sometimes hunting and food distribution. Other than that, they don't go around keeping everyone in line constantly. They couldn't care less what the others are doing most of the time. I've read numerous journals and studies on this and what Cesar thinks and does seems so ridiculous, it isn't even funny.

His reliance on the theory of pack behavior is way off base because there's much more recent scientific data which says that dogs evolved from solitary village dogs after evolving from an ancestor of the wolf. These village dogs had no need to be in a pack and our domestic dogs have even less need to be in a pack. They are simply living among us. Pack animals hunt for their food and breed, reproduce and raise young. Our dogs aren't doing any of that. Pack animals MUST be conspecifics. (members of the same specie) Those are the ONLY reasons for a pack. In fact, wolves are not even always in a pack unless these factors are present. Hunting small game does not require a pack formation. Wolves are many times seen by themselves. Some seasons require them to be in a pack. Most packs are nothing more than Mom, Pop and the kids. It's not this big 50 dog thing Cesar calls his pack. That's the most unnatural thing that he has going. Comparing anything when in captivity is not indicative of how it operates in the wild. We are simply not a pack with our dogs. Dogs know we're not their specie.

Sure, we need to be leaders. How else could we have our dogs live peacefully with us and live how we want them to? That does not require force, punishment, aversives and extreme domination. There are other ways to teach dogs how to live with us and go by our ways. All they need is to be taught, to be shown and those methods are best served by appealing to a dog's nature....that he is an opportunist and does what works. So....we make what we want from the dog work for the dog. Operant and classial conditioning based methods are in line with how all mammals learn and are particularily suited for a very opportunistic animal like a dog. It's shown all the time. Many good trainers rehabilitate dogs who are every bit as problematic as the ones Cesar works with. He just doesn't know the science, has a good Hollywood thing going so why fix what ain't broke? He's making millions. I've heard of many regressions with his "methods" on some of those dogs....lots of them. It's all Hollywood hype. He is no whisperer, no mystic ability to communicate with dogs at all. He forces, squelches and supresses behavior so that it stops. Big deal!

Cesar bases all his "methods" and all his interpretation of how dogs behave on a foundation which is misinformed, proven inaccurate and begotten from horribly inaccurately done research which has since been disproven. There is no scientific backing for his ideas. He just grabs onto this old, outdated, disproven nonsense and pretends to know about dogs. All he's doing is shutting down dogs and supressing behavior....not only the target behavior, but most all behavior. He's taking dogs and turning them into toned down versions of a dog, a skeleton of a dog as far as their spirits and personality goes. I saw him yanking the he!! out of a dog's neck the other night on a show (had to change the channel) when the dog turned his head like 3 inches to the left to look at something. The dog was walking nicely but his head moved and Cesar let 'em have it. HARD. This is a ridiculous way to teach a dog. The guy is ridiculous. He's no trainer. I can't believe people fall for this nonsense.

In all fairness, I have seen a few things I think are fine which he does, but just a few. How often do you see him rewarding a dog? His main reward is the absense of punishment. I agree with being calm around a nervous dog. Duh. I agree with giving a dog ample exercise, but not the amount he sometimes promotes. He needs to get these dogs exhausted in order for them to "behave." Many of the dogs he is forcing have their heads down, they're drooling, their ears are laid back, their tails are lowered....all signs of stress. He calls that calm submissive. Yup...their submitting all right. Why is this considered a good thing? Good trainers can get the behavior they want without all that, but instead with a dog who has his head up, ears forward, tail up and jaunty, a lively expression. In fact, this is a requirement for a show dog. You can't have a dog moping along the ring looking submissive.

He's been bitten many times because of forcing a dog, alpha rolling a dog when the dog is terrified. All he had to do was take a little more time and condition or desensatize the dog to the stimuli. Not a lot more time, but a little more. I took a dog who was 20 times worse than one he worked with to cut nails and in three days had this dog accepting it just fine. He got bitten because he was determined to "win." And he cut the nails in ten minutes but got bitten in three places and scratched up too. Ridiculous.
:hail: Ahhh - I feel so humbled in the presence of your greatness, Doberluv!! :D

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I dont like him as a trainer. His methods are strange to say the least, and while somewhat effective on some dogs, with other dogs it will get him mauled.

How he treats aggressive dogs is just borderline stupid.


Then again, I dont advocate extreme speed training methods, I think training over longer time with slow exposure and dissentizetion is much more effective in the long run.

I totally agree with you!!! First if your dog doesnt respect you (which is usually where the behavioral issues arise in the first place) and are hard in temperament they will not allow you to correct them and be harsh to them. With certain dogs you cannot engage with them unless you are going to win (and by doing that both you AND your dog will get hurt in the process).

[Herschel]

I've seen him praise the dogs...

Take a training class with an experienced trainer and you'll see the difference. Maybe Cesar has praised dogs in a couple of episodes, but the overwhelming majority of us haven't seen that.

My girlfriend and I watch the show occasionally but we always feel sorry for the dogs that are being scared into submission. It hurts even more knowing that people are trying the same "methods" on their dogs at home. For some reason, people treat the show like it is an instruction video. Even if Cesar were a qualified trainer, watching a t.v. show isn't an excuse for real, hands-off training in a class or in a private lesson.

By the way, what is this "calm and submissive" business all about? When our puppy was going through a fear stage he would roll over onto his stomach whenever we said "No!" or tried to stop him from doing something. We worked with him to make him stop being submissive--we want him to be confident, happy, and eager to please. Why in the world do you want your dog to be scared of you? If your dog is submissive to you, it isn't acting happily and with trust--it is behaving out of fear. Kris, can you please explain this to me? (Seriously)

This is hilarious:
http://www.enlighten-up.org/cooper/2006/06/post.html

[Doberluv]

A-w-w-w Ruby....I can just type fast. LOL.

[Doberluv]

Yeah....Herschel, I've seen a couple of episodes where he did all right. One where a dog was afraid of kids. He took the dog to a park and kept him at a comfortable distance...used his own kid. The boy would lie under a jump. The dog loved jumping since he was an agility dog. And he got so he'd jump and then he got a cookie. Amazing because you hardly ever see him use treats...just on a few occasions. He didn't force the dog right up close to the kid right away....let him desensatize reasonably. I was quite shocked...thought maybe he was learning something and changing his ways.

So, no....not everything he does is horrible at all. But the majority of it is or enough of it is just not showing much understanding of dog behavior. Merely stopping behavior for the time being just isn't the same as training or......"it works." I hear that so much. "It worked." What worked? What is "worked?" There's more to "it worked" than just stopping a behavior. Like Herschel said, what's so great about a dog being submissive and obeying out of avoidance?

[krisykris]

Take a training class with an experienced trainer and you'll see the difference. Maybe Cesar has praised dogs in a couple of episodes, but the overwhelming majority of us haven't seen that.

My girlfriend and I watch the show occasionally but we always feel sorry for the dogs that are being scared into submission. It hurts even more knowing that people are trying the same "methods" on their dogs at home. For some reason, people treat the show like it is an instruction video. Even if Cesar were a qualified trainer, watching a t.v. show isn't an excuse for real, hands-off training in a class or in a private lesson.

By the way, what is this "calm and submissive" business all about? When our puppy was going through a fear stage he would roll over onto his stomach whenever we said "No!" or tried to stop him from doing something. We worked with him to make him stop being submissive--we want him to be confident, happy, and eager to please. Why in the world do you want your dog to be scared of you? If your dog is submissive to you, it isn't acting happily and with trust--it is behaving out of fear. Kris, can you please explain this to me? (Seriously)

This is hilarious:
http://www.enlighten-up.org/cooper/2006/06/post.html



Well firstly, I have never been to a training class so I can't comment on other people's methods. I think that he has a lot of good points. I think him talking about the humans being calm and assertive is a GREAT thing. I also think that his methods are not that bad. To be honest I've seen some situations which made me uncomfortable but mostly because the dog was SO out of control.

If a dog is super high risk and attacking people and he can make a plan to help that dog live a better life, I agree with it. He does not use the same method on every dog and I think it's unfair to say that he scares his animals into submission.

I don't think that watching a tv show is a supplement in any way for real training, and I highly doubt that Caesar would want someone to go by watching his show alone. That's why there is a disclaimer at the end of every commercial break saying so.

[Herschel]

I think you kind of dodged my question. Cesar definitely wants dogs to be submissive (as well as owners to be assertive).

"Calm-submissive energy – In nature, this is the appropriate energy for a “follower” in a dog pack, and thus the ideal energy for a dog to project when living in a household with humans. Signs of calm-submissive energy include a relaxed posture, ears held back, and a nearly instinctual response to the “pack leader’s” commands."
-http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/tips/glossary.php (Cesar's website)
-http://www.google.com/search?q=Calm+and+submissive


However:
"Submissive behavior may occur in situations where a dog feels inferior toward a person or another dog. The submissive dog may flatten his ears against his head, tuck his tail between his legs or hold it low to the ground, lower his head and neck, or crouch low to the ground."
-http://www.bestfriendspetcare.com/dog_behavior/submissiveurination.cfm

Kris, do you think it is acceptable for people to make their dogs feel inferior or insecure?

[krisykris]

I think you kind of dodged my question. Cesar definitely wants dogs to be submissive (as well as owners to be assertive).




However:
"Submissive behavior may occur in situations where a dog feels inferior toward a person or another dog. The submissive dog may flatten his ears against his head, tuck his tail between his legs or hold it low to the ground, lower his head and neck, or crouch low to the ground."
-http://www.bestfriendspetcare.com/dog_behavior/submissiveurination.cfm

Kris, do you think it is acceptable for people to make their dogs feel inferior or insecure?

I don't feel the need to defend myself on this one. I happen to think Cesar does a lot of good for a lot of people and their pets. It's my opinion and I don't have to back it up.

A lot of the dogs he works with ARE already insecure and fearful and I've seen him REALLY HELP them. Doesn't seem cruel to me.

[oriondw]

If the dog is out of control and think its running the house, then it should be shown its place. With non-violent methods ofcourse.

If the dog is extremely submissive, then trainer should build up its confidence to a higher level.

Dog should be on a level where it doesnt think he runs the place, but still thinks that he has the ability to do anything and learn anything :)

[krisykris]

If the dog is out of control and think its running the house, then it should be shown its place. With non-violent methods ofcourse.

If the dog is extremely submissive, then trainer should build up its confidence to a higher level.

Dog should be on a level where it doesnt think he runs the place, but still thinks that he has the ability to do anything and learn anything :)

Right, I think there's a happy medium.

[Herschel]

I don't feel the need to defend myself on this one. I happen to think Cesar does a lot of good for a lot of people and their pets. It's my opinion and I don't have to back it up.

A lot of the dogs he works with ARE already insecure and fearful and I've seen him REALLY HELP them. Doesn't seem cruel to me.

I know that my post sounded accusatory, but I was honestly just wondering. Sorry if you felt that you had to defend yourself!

[Shannerson]

I have to say that this past week over the holiday I was at my in-laws where there were two other dogs in the house. One was a cocker/poodle mix and totally ran the roost. It was ridiculous how they let her do whatever she wanted and really annoyed everyone there. When they first came we were already there with our pretty well-behaved adult dog. The mix barked and barked forever at our dog, with the owner coddling it saying "it is okay" and "she will get used to him".
The owner went outside for a little while and I simply walked over to the dog in a confident manner and made a small noise to get her attention with a finger point at her and she stopped barking. She looked shocked that someone was Telling her what to do and not Asking her. I believe she is very unstable with low-self esteem, very scared so she barks loudly. Whenever my dog approached her she ran off with her tail between her legs.
Just my experience with something I learned with caesar. No, I do not agree with everything he does, but in this case, it worked. Now, if I could only train the owners!

[Doberluv]

Krisykris, of course you have a right to your opinion and I respect that you see what you do and from what you've seen, come up with your opinion. From your frame of reference, it looks good, looks like these dogs are truly rehabilitated. And some in fact are. Some, it has been reported regress badly somewhere down the road.

What I'd like to offer you is a look at what people think who have studied dogs for years, not only in the wild, but in captivity, what behaviorists see...their frame of reference. It is much larger I believe because they've been in the field for a very long time and their whole life is about observing, studying, doing tests, including brain studies, hormonal comparrisons, the whole bit. They understand very well dogs' body language and how they interact with one another. Their entire life work is about learning dog behavior. They train, they experiment, they observe. They have advanced degrees in behaviorism and ethology. They rehabilitate aggressive dogs too and very successfully. There is more to it than Cesar Milan demonstrates...a lot more to it. For instance, he uses positive punishment (that is....adding punishment) to dogs who have OCD. (obsessive compulsive disorder) I've seen him give collar corrections to dogs obsessed with chasing shadows or lights and give them that, "cheh" and step toward them, intimidating them to stop. OCD is a medical condition. Neurotransmitters and receptors are out of whack. Can you imagine using punishment on someone who is doing something on account of a neurological malfunction?

Please read the following, the link and the other thing, and see what you think. Even if you don't agree, it's still educational and interesting.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.

Here are my qualifications for talking about Cesar Millan’s methods: I have watched several episodes of his show, and I read the interview in the Times last Sunday. Some fan of his is going to post and say I’m insufficiently familiar with the man’s oeuvre, but sorry, I didn’t have to eat the whole salad to know that large parts of it were very, very bad.

Here are the things I do like: Yes, it’s important for dogs to get adequate exercise—most of them don’t. Yes, the suburban backyard is a jail cell for a dog. Yes, it’s good to act calm around a fearful dog. And yes, everyone living in a household has to know what the rules are for that household, and that includes the dogs.

Also, the one really good thing Millan does, as someone who works with dog behavior on TV, is get across the message that behavior can be changed. I cringe when a client asks me about Millan’s methods, but maybe that client wouldn’t have called a behavior counselor if he hadn’t seen CM on TV.

But that’s it. Apart from what I’ve cited above, Millan, as a behavior expert, seems to be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

That Times interview. Does Millan know that dogs probably evolved as semi-solitary scavengers in the vicinity of human settlements? “In the natural dog world, the dog is always behind the pack leader.” Oh pull-eaze! The closest thing to the “natural dog world” today, if prevailing scientific theory is correct, is probably a Third World village, and you can see for yourself in any such place that the dogs travel kinda sorta together but often alone, in a very loose way, basically focusing on whatever piece of garbage they can find to eat. I don’t know where he got that “90 miles a day” thing, either. These are skinny dogs hanging around the dump, or the tourist restaurant; it would be astonishing if they traveled 20 miles a day, let alone 90. To what purpose? They can’t afford that kind of energy expenditure, for pete’s sake.

And am I really supposed to believe that when my dogs and I are taking the same boring last-pee-before-bedtime walk around the block that we take every single night, and they walk ahead of me, it’s because they’re staging a palace coup, not because they … um … know exactly where we’re all going? We’re on a country hike, my dog-who-loves-to-swim realizes we’re getting near the creek and pelts ahead of me to jump in. Whoops, was that my pack leadership going by? Or was he just excited about getting in the water?

Science isn’t the only thing missing here—a little common sense might come in handy too.

As for the TV show—I’ll just talk about one episode: the Great Dane afraid of shiny floors. Yes, Millan succeeded in getting the dog to walk tractably on shiny linoleum floors, and he did it by inducing what’s called learned helplessness. He dragged the dog onto the linoleum and kept him there. The dog's efforts to escape did not work, and the dog gave up. That is learned helplessness. It’s not the same thing as being comfortable and relaxed. At the end, the Dane’s tail is down, his head is down, and he is drooling profusely. For those who have eyes to see, he’s a picture of fear and misery.

Sadly, his guardian had had the right idea: she was laying down carpet runner for the dog to walk on. I would have started exactly the same way, and when he was comfortable walking down the hall, left a little gap of linoleum, small enough so he could step over it. And slowly the gap would have grown. I would have put Musher’s Wax on the dog’s paws so as to be sure he had traction: remember, he was afraid of shiny floors because he’d taken a bad spill on one. The hallway would be a place of fun with his guardian and chicken treats.

I’m sure this would have taken longer than Millan’s method, but at the end the dog would have been walking happily and confidently, not hanging his head and drooling.

And that’s the trouble with Cesar Millan. He’s got a hammer—the dominance idea—and he thinks everything he sees is a nail. He’s constantly forcing what needs to be gentled along. And it’s all very well overpowering dogs when you work out every day and have a Y chromosome on board, but what is my five-foot female client with two little kids supposed to do? What about the elderly man with a brand-new hip? What if you are a man who works out every day but you don’t enjoy physical confrontation as a way of life? What are you supposed to do then?

Call a clicker trainer.

[dr2little]

Well firstly, I have never been to a training class so I can't comment on other people's methods. I think that he has a lot of good points. I think him talking about the humans being calm and assertive is a GREAT thing. I also think that his methods are not that bad. To be honest I've seen some situations which made me uncomfortable but mostly because the dog was SO out of control.

This is exactly why Cesar is so dangerous. Many people like yourself (this is NOT a criticism towards you kris), who have no understanding of canine behavior and have no knowledge of other methods WILL follow Cesar and think he's terrific.

Many of us (experienced, educated and certified trainers) handle these "RED ZONE":rolleyes: as Cesar likes to dramatically refer to them, cases on a daily basis. We work with them very successfully without ever putting a hand on them. What Cesar does with his lack of education is totally unnecessary. He, at times, talks a good game but to an even moderatelly trained eye, he's a joke.

I was at a case on Boxing Day...one that Cesar would refer to as "red zone" and aside from a resource guarding test where I had to touch the cheek (gently) of this dog with an assess-a-hand, I never touched the dog at all.
If Cesar would have been there and used his typical pushy, ridiculous methods for this type of case, he would have been badly bitten, the family would be in big trouble, and the dog likely PTS at a later date. With proper understanding of what is actually going on and how to manage THEN correct this dogs behavior issues, this dog will be a predictable loved and loving family member. I follow up on EVERY case long after the problem is "solved", does Cesar???

A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.

[krisykris]

This is exactly why Cesar is so dangerous. Many people like yourself (this is NOT a criticism towards you kris), who have no understanding of canine behavior and have no knowledge of other methods WILL follow Cesar and think he's terrific.

Many of us (experienced, educated and certified trainers) handle these "RED ZONE":rolleyes: as Cesar likes to dramatically refer to them, cases on a daily basis. We work with them very successfully without ever putting a hand on them. What Cesar does with his lack of education is totally unnecessary. He, at times, talks a good game but to an even moderatelly trained eye, he's a joke.

I was at a case on Boxing Day...one that Cesar would refer to as "red zone" and aside from a resource guarding test where I had to touch the cheek (gently) of this dog with an assess-a-hand, I never touched the dog at all.
If Cesar would have been there and used his typical pushy, ridiculous methods for this type of case, he would have been badly bitten, the family would be in big trouble, and the dog likely PTS at a later date. With proper understanding of what is actually going on and how to manage THEN correct this dogs behavior issues, this dog will be a predictable loved and loving family member. I follow up on EVERY case long after the problem is "solved", does Cesar???

A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.

I never used a choke chain, nor would I ever. I used a show leash for a few practice sessions with Bentley to see if it would help him stay focused. It didn't and I left it by the wayside. I've never actually seen him use a choke chain on a small dog.

I truly understand that I have no experience in dog training nor have I studied it in depth. I think that some of Cesar's methods make sense to me though, regardless of if they apply to me.

[krisykris]

Krisykris, of course you have a right to your opinion and I respect that you see what you do and from what you've seen, come up with your opinion. From your frame of reference, it looks good, looks like these dogs are truly rehabilitated. And some in fact are. Some, it has been reported regress badly somewhere down the road.

What I'd like to offer you is a look at what people think who have studied dogs for years, not only in the wild, but in captivity, what behaviorists see...their frame of reference. It is much larger I believe because they've been in the field for a very long time and their whole life is about observing, studying, doing tests, including brain studies, hormonal comparrisons, the whole bit. They understand very well dogs' body language and how they interact with one another. Their entire life work is about learning dog behavior. They train, they experiment, they observe. They have advanced degrees in behaviorism and ethology. They rehabilitate aggressive dogs too and very successfully. There is more to it than Cesar Milan demonstrates...a lot more to it. For instance, he uses positive punishment (that is....adding punishment) to dogs who have OCD. (obsessive compulsive disorder) I've seen him give collar corrections to dogs obsessed with chasing shadows or lights and give them that, "cheh" and step toward them, intimidating them to stop. OCD is a medical condition. Neurotransmitters and receptors are out of whack. Can you imagine using punishment on someone who is doing something on account of a neurological malfunction?

Please read the following, the link and the other thing, and see what you think. Even if you don't agree, it's still educational and interesting.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.

Here are my qualifications for talking about Cesar Millan’s methods: I have watched several episodes of his show, and I read the interview in the Times last Sunday. Some fan of his is going to post and say I’m insufficiently familiar with the man’s oeuvre, but sorry, I didn’t have to eat the whole salad to know that large parts of it were very, very bad.

Here are the things I do like: Yes, it’s important for dogs to get adequate exercise—most of them don’t. Yes, the suburban backyard is a jail cell for a dog. Yes, it’s good to act calm around a fearful dog. And yes, everyone living in a household has to know what the rules are for that household, and that includes the dogs.

Also, the one really good thing Millan does, as someone who works with dog behavior on TV, is get across the message that behavior can be changed. I cringe when a client asks me about Millan’s methods, but maybe that client wouldn’t have called a behavior counselor if he hadn’t seen CM on TV.

But that’s it. Apart from what I’ve cited above, Millan, as a behavior expert, seems to be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

That Times interview. Does Millan know that dogs probably evolved as semi-solitary scavengers in the vicinity of human settlements? “In the natural dog world, the dog is always behind the pack leader.” Oh pull-eaze! The closest thing to the “natural dog world” today, if prevailing scientific theory is correct, is probably a Third World village, and you can see for yourself in any such place that the dogs travel kinda sorta together but often alone, in a very loose way, basically focusing on whatever piece of garbage they can find to eat. I don’t know where he got that “90 miles a day” thing, either. These are skinny dogs hanging around the dump, or the tourist restaurant; it would be astonishing if they traveled 20 miles a day, let alone 90. To what purpose? They can’t afford that kind of energy expenditure, for pete’s sake.

And am I really supposed to believe that when my dogs and I are taking the same boring last-pee-before-bedtime walk around the block that we take every single night, and they walk ahead of me, it’s because they’re staging a palace coup, not because they … um … know exactly where we’re all going? We’re on a country hike, my dog-who-loves-to-swim realizes we’re getting near the creek and pelts ahead of me to jump in. Whoops, was that my pack leadership going by? Or was he just excited about getting in the water?

Science isn’t the only thing missing here—a little common sense might come in handy too.

As for the TV show—I’ll just talk about one episode: the Great Dane afraid of shiny floors. Yes, Millan succeeded in getting the dog to walk tractably on shiny linoleum floors, and he did it by inducing what’s called learned helplessness. He dragged the dog onto the linoleum and kept him there. The dog's efforts to escape did not work, and the dog gave up. That is learned helplessness. It’s not the same thing as being comfortable and relaxed. At the end, the Dane’s tail is down, his head is down, and he is drooling profusely. For those who have eyes to see, he’s a picture of fear and misery.

Sadly, his guardian had had the right idea: she was laying down carpet runner for the dog to walk on. I would have started exactly the same way, and when he was comfortable walking down the hall, left a little gap of linoleum, small enough so he could step over it. And slowly the gap would have grown. I would have put Musher’s Wax on the dog’s paws so as to be sure he had traction: remember, he was afraid of shiny floors because he’d taken a bad spill on one. The hallway would be a place of fun with his guardian and chicken treats.

I’m sure this would have taken longer than Millan’s method, but at the end the dog would have been walking happily and confidently, not hanging his head and drooling.

And that’s the trouble with Cesar Millan. He’s got a hammer—the dominance idea—and he thinks everything he sees is a nail. He’s constantly forcing what needs to be gentled along. And it’s all very well overpowering dogs when you work out every day and have a Y chromosome on board, but what is my five-foot female client with two little kids supposed to do? What about the elderly man with a brand-new hip? What if you are a man who works out every day but you don’t enjoy physical confrontation as a way of life? What are you supposed to do then?

Call a clicker trainer.

Thank you for the article, it was interesting =)

[krisykris]

I know that my post sounded accusatory, but I was honestly just wondering. Sorry if you felt that you had to defend yourself!

It's okay, I was probably being a little defensive =)

[dr2little]

I never used a choke chain, nor would I ever. I used a show leash for a few practice sessions with Bentley to see if it would help him stay focused. It didn't and I left it by the wayside. I've never actually seen him use a choke chain on a small dog.

I truly understand that I have no experience in dog training nor have I studied it in depth. I think that some of Cesar's methods make sense to me though, regardless of if they apply to me.


The show leash works almost the same way as a choke chain. It's not meant for walking your dog but rather to practice for show. That is what I was referring to and I was not trying to make you feel bad. I just remembered the thread that you talked about this and that your dog/s were really straining against it. I may have made the leap due to your LOVE of his book and strong recommendations for it. I think that was you, if it wasn't...I really do apologize.

Cesar does use a choke chains, choke strings, show leads....he always makes a point in minimizing their danger by saying that they're used in show. His collar of choice is one that will make a dogs tongue turn blue so he can look like a big hero when they submit due to lack of oxygen. Choking devises of any kind are not appropriate for any dog but he does use them on almost EVERY dog he gets his hands on. He even talks about how to make your own (both on his show and in his book) for .10 cents with some string or twine.:mad:

[Road dog]

Preach on, Doberluv!

When my GSD hit that "rebellious teenager" stage, I had a dog that Ceasar would have killed. Yes, maybe she would bolt after a rabbit, or ignore a command in favor of something considerably more entertaining, but she was NOT displaying alpha tendancies, she was displaying youthful exhuberance.

She is and always has been a very gentle dog, and she would lower her head in fear if I so much as raised my voice too loudly to her. She was NOT being bossy, she was a bouncy little girl who needed GENTLE GUIDANCE. Milan jerking her about on the end of a choke chain would have broken her spirit to pieces and completely shut her down. I'd no longer have a dog, just the skin a dog used to be in.

The man is a quack, and if I were ever to pass him on the street he would not be allowed to so much as touch my dogs.

[squirtsmom]

I find h im highly entertaining.

[dr2little]

I find h im highly entertaining.

Sorry, but I find very little entertainment in watching a dog struggle and flail at the end of a choke chain or in dogs forced into situations that make them freeze out of sheer terror. All of these posts validating this guys obvious abuse and lack of knowledge just really make me worry about his influence even more.:mad:

[Doberluv]

When my GSD hit that "rebellious teenager" stage, I had a dog that Ceasar would have killed. Yes, maybe she would bolt after a rabbit, or ignore a command in favor of something considerably more entertaining, but she was NOT displaying alpha tendancies, she was displaying youthful exhuberance.

She is and always has been a very gentle dog, and she would lower her head in fear if I so much as raised my voice too loudly to her. She was NOT being bossy, she was a bouncy little girl who needed GENTLE GUIDANCE. Milan jerking her about on the end of a choke chain would have broken her spirit to pieces and completely shut her down. I'd no longer have a dog, just the skin a dog used to be in.

The man is a quack, and if I were ever to pass him on the street he would not be allowed to so much as touch my dogs.

I'm glad you see that Road dog. If people can't see the difference in a dog who is exuberant and interested in learning what we teach him, whether it's regular obedience skills or teaching him that aggression isn't necessary and a dog who is stressed, supressed, plodding along under duress, if they can't recognize the body language and what the dog is trying to tell us, they shouldn't have dogs. If it's that much of a struggle and fight to get along with dogs, if it's all about war with dogs, who's going to "win," then dogs are not the right kind of animal for that kind of person.

Sorry, but I find very little entertainment in watching a dog struggle and flail at the end of a choke chain or in dogs forced into situations that make them freeze out of sheer terror. All of these posts validating this guys obvious abuse and lack of knowledge just really make me worry about his influence even more.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

[Herschel]

A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.

Exactly! People buy into this stuff and take it as training advice, not a show of brute force by Caveman Millan.

[Herschel]

I believe she is very unstable with low-self esteem, very scared so she barks loudly. Whenever my dog approached her she ran off with her tail between her legs.

Sorry, but I really don't understand your logic. You say that the dog was "unstable with low self-esteem" but then you acted unpredictably to change the behavior?

Did the spaniel mix gain confidence or stability by your actions?
Did the dog run away from your dog with "her tail between her legs" before or after your correction?
If before, then how did the correction help her get over her fear of other dogs?
If after, did your correction turn her uneasiness around other dogs into fear?
(Tail tucked and running away is a sign of fear)

[krisykris]

The show leash works almost the same way as a choke chain. It's not meant for walking your dog but rather to practice for show. That is what I was referring to and I was not trying to make you feel bad. I just remembered the thread that you talked about this and that your dog/s were really straining against it. I may have made the leap due to your LOVE of his book and strong recommendations for it. I think that was you, if it wasn't...I really do apologize.

Cesar does use a choke chains, choke strings, show leads....he always makes a point in minimizing their danger by saying that they're used in show. His collar of choice is one that will make a dogs tongue turn blue so he can look like a big hero when they submit due to lack of oxygen. Choking devises of any kind are not appropriate for any dog but he does use them on almost EVERY dog he gets his hands on. He even talks about how to make your own (both on his show and in his book) for .10 cents with some string or twine.:mad:

I only used the show leash for about 5 minutes before I realized it was not for me. It didn't help Bentley in the slightest and I felt uncomfortable with it in handling him.

When I've seen him walking the dogs... it seems as if he puts no pressure on the leash until he gives a correction. In a few other training dvd's I have the same corrections are used.

I'm not pretending to know more than you, as I'm sure you are incredibly experienced and skilled in this field.

[Shannerson]

Sorry, but I really don't understand your logic. You say that the dog was "unstable with low self-esteem" but then you acted unpredictably to change the behavior?

Did the spaniel mix gain confidence or stability by your actions?
Did the dog run away from your dog with "her tail between her legs" before or after your correction?
If before, then how did the correction help her get over her fear of other dogs?
If after, did your correction turn her uneasiness around other dogs into fear?
(Tail tucked and running away is a sign of fear)

I don't think that my quiet action of telling the dog she needed to stop barking was unpredictable as in abusive if that is what you are saying. She acts like she has never been socialized. If I had acted predictably, I would have coddled her and said in a sing-song voice to be quiet. I was told she has to have the bark collar on her when the young daugher has friends over to play; they just place the bark collar on her, never letting her know what she is doing is wrong without the shock treatment. I think that is abusive.
Yes, she seemed to be glad someone took control of the situation by tellling her that her actions were inappropriate and I was in control, not her. I did not physically touch her or scare are.
She ran away before I corrected her from the other dog. She also ran away from anyone trying to pet her except her close owners. I am not saying all evening I worked with this dog; I just once corrected her. It got her attention; then owner came back and the same behavior resumed.
Obviously it would take more time to correct this fear barking behavior as that is what I call it. I felt like she was trying to control everything because her owners were not.

Just putting in my two cents here. I am not a dog trainer, just a dog owner. What should I have done if I was wrong?

[oriondw]

Todays show he's gonna be teaching some dog aggressive rottweilers.

[dr2little]

I only used the show leash for about 5 minutes before I realized it was not for me. It didn't help Bentley in the slightest and I felt uncomfortable with it in handling him.

When I've seen him walking the dogs... it seems as if he puts no pressure on the leash until he gives a correction. In a few other training dvd's I have the same corrections are used.

I'm not pretending to know more than you, as I'm sure you are incredibly experienced and skilled in this field.


It's starting to feel as though you feel that I've picked on you a bit and it was certainly not my intention. Cesar talk just gets me going, in fact all of us in the dog world who come from a real behavior background have a hard time keeping it zipped when the topic of Cesar comes up.

He really is a hack though.:confused: See, I just can't ZIP IT....sorry;) :p

[dr2little]

Todays show he's gonna be teaching some dog aggressive rottweilers.

I hope the show dresses him up as a poodle then....Now THAT I'd find entertaining!!!:D :D :D

[Rubylove]

It's starting to feel as though you feel that I've picked on you a bit and it was certainly not my intention. Cesar talk just gets me going, in fact all of us in the dog world who come from a real behavior background have a hard time keeping it zipped when the topic of Cesar comes up.

He really is a hack though.:confused: See, I just can't ZIP IT....sorry
**snort** You're a crack-up. I totally agree - there are definitely some `just don't get me started' dog topics around! I've never watched The Dog Whisperer as I said, because I really feel that I don't need to add any more topics to that `don't get me started' list! :D

You know who I was thinking about the other day? Barbara Woodhouse. She was considered such a pioneer and the be-all and end-all of dog training. I wonder what would be thought of her methods now? The chapters in her book `No Bad Dogs' kind of speak for themselves in a scary way, `Curing a fighter', `How to use the choke chain', `How to scold', and I love this one `How to detect schizophrenia' :yikes:

However, I've not read any of her books or seen her show since I was a child, so perhaps I should not criticise out of hand....

[krisykris]

It's starting to feel as though you feel that I've picked on you a bit and it was certainly not my intention. Cesar talk just gets me going, in fact all of us in the dog world who come from a real behavior background have a hard time keeping it zipped when the topic of Cesar comes up.

He really is a hack though.:confused: See, I just can't ZIP IT....sorry;) :p

I know you aren't picking on me =). I appreciate your view and all the helpful advice you've given me in the past as well!

You don't need to zip it :) and you should be able to say whatever you want!!

[oriondw]

I hope the show dresses him up as a poodle then....Now THAT I'd find entertaining!!!:D :D :D

So I watched it...

Some of the things he says are correct to a certain degree.

Some of the things he did... well. Yeah, its a good thing it says not to try it at home.


First episode with Rottie... He basically used a prong to get quick immediate results, and got the dog to get used to his dog pack in 2 weeks. Neither of those "fix" the dogs issues.

Second episode had extremely fearful GSD. He did some work with it, waited 3 month then they showed the dog again. The dog was still so scared, it was shaking, but didn't bark anymore... Instead of rehabilitating the dog, he just made it shut up. :( After that I just changed the channel.

[dr2little]

So I watched it...

Some of the things he says are correct to a certain degree.

Some of the things he did... well. Yeah, its a good thing it says not to try it at home.


First episode with Rottie... He basically used a prong to get quick immediate results, and got the dog to get used to his dog pack in 2 weeks. Neither of those "fix" the dogs issues.

Second episode had extremely fearful GSD. He did some work with it, waited 3 month then they showed the dog again. The dog was still so scared, it was shaking, but didn't bark anymore... Instead of rehabilitating the dog, he just made it shut up. After that I just changed the channel.

:yikes: WHAT???? No Poodle suit??:( ...glad I didn't watch it then.;) :p

[Gijora]

Second episode had extremely fearful GSD. He did some work with it, waited 3 month then they showed the dog again. The dog was still so scared, it was shaking, but didn't bark anymore... Instead of rehabilitating the dog, he just made it shut up. :( After that I just changed the channel.
:( :( i wonder if the dog ever bites someone, out of fear, with no vocal warning, who will be blammed? :rolleyes:

[Doberluv]

i wonder if the dog ever bites someone, out of fear, with no vocal warning, who will be blammed?

The dog, of course. Or the breed.

[Shannerson]

He does lose his temper at times and the poor uncertain dogs are even more fearful. That is sad. I wonder what the dogs think when he gets in their face and forces them to roll over.

[Herschel]

I don't think that my quiet action of telling the dog she needed to stop barking was unpredictable as in abusive if that is what you are saying. She acts like she has never been socialized. If I had acted predictably, I would have coddled her and said in a sing-song voice to be quiet. I was told she has to have the bark collar on her when the young daugher has friends over to play; they just place the bark collar on her, never letting her know what she is doing is wrong without the shock treatment. I think that is abusive.
Yes, she seemed to be glad someone took control of the situation by tellling her that her actions were inappropriate and I was in control, not her. I did not physically touch her or scare are.
She ran away before I corrected her from the other dog. She also ran away from anyone trying to pet her except her close owners. I am not saying all evening I worked with this dog; I just once corrected her. It got her attention; then owner came back and the same behavior resumed.
Obviously it would take more time to correct this fear barking behavior as that is what I call it. I felt like she was trying to control everything because her owners were not.

Just putting in my two cents here. I am not a dog trainer, just a dog owner. What should I have done if I was wrong?

I never said that you abused the dog, either physically or mentally. I wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm a first time dog owner and not a trainer by any stretch, but I would have handled the situation differently. I think we can both agree that the dog was barking out of fear/fear aggression, right?

Your correction was to present a startling sound/action to stop the behavior. It's good that you were being proactive, but is it so different than the "bark collar"?

You: Dog is scared and barks, you get the dogs attention with a sudden correction.

Collar: Dog is scared and barks, collar gets the dog attention with a sudden correction, albeit harsher/more painful than yours.

The different is just a matter of magnitude. In both cases, the dog learned that even thought it is scared it shouldn't bark in order to avoid the correction. That is quite different than the dog learning to be comfortable in new situations or in the presence of new people.

Next time, could you try taking 5 treats and having the dog work for them? First, have the dog sit. Then, have the dog down. Then go back to a sit. Ue the 4th treat to get the dog to stand, 5th to have the dog sit. Then, praise her and let her know that you aren't someone to be feared. The lessons to be learned from this are:

1) You show up and offer treats
2) To get the treats, the dog must listen to you
3) You are a confident leader. Instead of acting unpredictably, you redirected the barking and focused her attention on something more constructive.

[Shannerson]

Okay, Herschel. I'd try that if it were my dog. Although I think the dog should stop barking when it is told to, but that may be later in training. I would think this dog would have to start at the very beginning of any training. She has a load of issues.
I see how you are saying to redirect behavior and that is great.