Pit fighter to family pet??

[DoglessInSeattle]

I have an aquaintance who is in possession of a large muscular male "pit" breed. The dog was supposedly raised as a fighting dog and in fact, his muzzle is pretty scarred up.

They are a young couple with a 4yo child who is very active but generally well behaved.

They like the dog.

"He" doesn't trust the dog around the rest of the family. The normal refrain is that the dog has had "no socialization", it doesn't even "know how to play, i.e. chase a ball". Therefore the dog is banished to the back yard, 24/7.

Recently, the dog escaped from the yard multiple times in a short period. "She" brought the dog indoors until "he" got home. The dog was well-behaved for that short period of time, but was "tied out" to prevent another escape.

"She" has decided the dog must be socialized or rehomed.

My question(s), "If" this dog was raised to fight, can he be socialized into a family pet? How can this be determined, what "indicators" should they look for?

As for "playing": I feel that if the dog would exhibit some playful behavior, "he" might be more willing to invest some time in socialization. I know I've seen some articles on developing interest in balls and subsequently training to fetch. I'll search them out, but if anybody knows any links off the tops of their heads....?

Thanks in advance, Dogless

[blue]

Pit breeds are bred to love humans, even if they where also bred for fighting.

See if they will have the dog evaluated by a proffesional.

[Kayla]

Not sure if I can help about the indicators however my bestfriend's ex, who I hung out with a few times, but was no huge fan of him, owned a 6 month old pittie puppy and lived in an apartment with a roomate. Loki had a typical pit attitude and loved everyone to death and was very well behaved around people and constantly had play dates with my best friends King Shepherd/Lab mix who was a year at the time.

One day however when my friend's ex came home from work he realised immediatly Loki and his roommate where missing. He searched around for him and called his cellie but couldn't get ahold of him, a month or so later his roomate returned with Loki who had gashes all of his mussel and on his legs. My friends ex demanded to know what happened and where he had brought Loki and the roomate told him he had trained Loki to fight in a ring ( disgusting that this still actually happens in this day and age:mad: )so they could make alot of money and said Loki had alot of potential. My Friends ex was furious and sickened and told him to get out immediatly or he would charge him for animal creulty and took Loki to a vet to get him stitched up.

Loki was still very well around my friend and I but my friends ex was to afraid to let Loki play with other dogs anymore and they moved up north where Loki could still enjoy a good life without running into other dogs or people as much.

The reason that I think fighting breeds that have actually been fought can still be good family pets is that dog aggression and people aggression is very different. Obviously like you've said it's had zero socialization and little contact with people as it's left outside most of the day, but pitties are very loyal and loving dogs and it's very hard to get rid of that love as most abused dogs that have a stable temperment from birth can reopen their trust to people much easier then we can.

Again Loki was a very different case as he had alot of great socilization from day one with people and still was a very trustworthy dog after his abduction. Just as when the horrid sport was legal way back when most fighting dogs where also pets as well as again dog aggression and human aggression are very different.

My best suggestion would be contact a trainer who has alot of experince in dealing with aggressive and abused dogs, I'm not saying that he will be aggressive but it's better to have a trainer who has dealt with actual aggressive dogs in the past can recognize the signs and work through them much easier then a trainer who's only ever dealt with minor things and will be much quicker to condem this poor fellow for his circumstances and his breed.

Hopefully this poor guy can get a second chance at life, he just sounds like he needs someone to believe in him long enough to help.

Best of luck
Kayla

[oriondw]

Everydog is different, and there are ofcourse exceptions, but in general I wouldnt suggest it.

You have to look at individual dog though.

From what you described, it does sound like a run of the mill untrained family pet. Breed here has little to do with anything, any dog can be trained ;)

[Red_ACD_for_me]

He can probably be rehabilitated into a family pet but his HIGH LEVELS of dog aggression will never go away. If the family doesn't take pecautions to prevent him from getting loose and attacking a passerby with another dog then he could be a BIG liability for them. Also, I'm sure he hasn't been neutered yet so they should get that done ASAP to get rid of some of testosterone in his system and to start the rehabilitation process. How old is this dog? Have they had him to the vet yet? Pitbulls are great dogs and are wonderful with children but a dog who has been fought is going to prove a challenge for this family. Are they ready to consult a trainer and do everything right by the dog? If this dog were to be in a shelter and showed high levels of aggression to other dogs in the testing they get put through before adoption he would usually be put to sleep because of the danger he could ultimately cause to another dog. Let us know how they make out and welcome to CHAZ!

[BostonBanker]

How do they know the dog was fought? Has the dog been around other dogs to see how he behaves? Does he go crazy when dogs walk by the yard.

I'm curious because I think it is easy to assume a pit with scars is a fighting dog, while it isn't always the case. Pits tend to be very "physical" dogs and they have a high pain tolerance; the scars could be from the dog getting into anything. I know of two beautiful pits with impressive scarring; neither was fought. One was rescued very young from a breeder who fought his dogs, and her scars were acquired later on in life. One was never fought, but was used as a bait dog (lovely:mad: ). Nervous around other dogs, yes; fine if introduced carefully.

If you take out the first paragraph of the original post, it could be written by anyone with an under-trained lab or golden. I agree with having the dog evaluated by a professional behaviorist. Get an honest, unbiased opinion of the dog and go from there.

dog aggression and people aggression is very different.
:hail: :hail:

[elegy]

it totally and completely depends on the dog. there is no way to know one way or the other from what you have posted. the dog needs to be evaluated by a behaviorist who is educated and experienced with pit bulls. he needs to live with somebody who is going to step up and train him, manage him responsibly, and give him the exercise (both mental and physical) that he needs. not really any different from any other rescued pit bull.

plenty of dogs come into families having never learned how to play- look at rescued racing greyhounds for example. that doesn't mean they're going to eat the kid.

keeping the dog tied up in the back yard and not including him as a part of the family is setting themselves and the dog up for disaster. those are both HUGE risk factors for bites.

[pancho]

I have an aquaintance who is in possession of a large muscular male "pit" breed. The dog was supposedly raised as a fighting dog and in fact, his muzzle is pretty scarred up.

They are a young couple with a 4yo child who is very active but generally well behaved.

They like the dog.

"He" doesn't trust the dog around the rest of the family. The normal refrain is that the dog has had "no socialization", it doesn't even "know how to play, i.e. chase a ball". Therefore the dog is banished to the back yard, 24/7.

Recently, the dog escaped from the yard multiple times in a short period. "She" brought the dog indoors until "he" got home. The dog was well-behaved for that short period of time, but was "tied out" to prevent another escape.

"She" has decided the dog must be socialized or rehomed.

My question(s), "If" this dog was raised to fight, can he be socialized into a family pet? How can this be determined, what "indicators" should they look for?

As for "playing": I feel that if the dog would exhibit some playful behavior, "he" might be more willing to invest some time in socialization. I know I've seen some articles on developing interest in balls and subsequently training to fetch. I'll search them out, but if anybody knows any links off the tops of their heads....?

Thanks in advance, Dogless

A scarred muzzle isn't really any indication of a fighting dog. Some dogs will scar up and some won't. Some of the best do not have scars and some of the worst will be covered. It sometimes matters what color the dog is as to how they scar up.
No socialization sounds like the way many fighting dogs are treated. Many have not had the chance to learn to play. Banishing it to the back yard 24/7 will not help at all. Many fighting dogs make excellent pets. They will have to be separated from other dogs and other animals but that is the same way as any pit bull should be treated.
How good of a pet he will make will usually be determined by the age of the dog. From what you have posted he failed as a fighting dog. This does not make him a better or worse pet. Some retired fighting dogs will make very good pets if a person will take the precautions needed. Some will never make a good pet. It is just according to the dog. Many fighting dogs have been bought and sold many times and really didn't get to know anyone as their owner.
Just take all precautions when there is any animal around. He may or may not make a pet. Mostly it will be up to the people who now own him, the age of the dog, and how long and how often he was matched.

[otch1]

Hello doglessinseattle... are you/ they, truly in Seattle area? If so, would love to help with your evaluation. Feel free to email me anytime.

[Shahrazade]

It can be done- and not with too much difficulty, either! I work with a rescue that just took in 7 fighting ring rescues. 3 were PTS for aggression towards humans that was too severe to work through- and I mean at the SIGHT of a human, even through a glass door, the dogs would lunge and growl and bark with very dominant-aggressive body posture- but the 4 remaining, after treatment for fighting wounds, including a leg amputation, a cast on another leg, and many many stitches, are all becoming fine pets and would love to shrink down to lap dog size and play Pomeranian for a day. One of them will literally wait until you aren't paying attention and then crawl slooooowly into your lap, looking around like "I'm not in your lap! You don't see me!"

The methods used include short (30 seconds to 1 1/2 minutes) time outs when any aggression is shown, lots of gentle obedience training including weight pull training on the dogs physically capable in order to burn off the energy they once used in fight training, and lots of calm time for love and petting. They also had to be taught to play- the rescue had volunteers rub a little bacon grease on a soft toy on a rope and drag it around for the dogs to pounce on and chew, then eventually introduced lots of other fun toys.

[DoglessInSeattle]

UPDATE and CORRECTED Info...

Okay, armed with a clicker, an Industrial strength tennis ball, a bag full of chopped up Appawztizers treats and a couple of poop bags I visited today with the goal of training this dog to fetch. Or at least get him moving in that direction.

Met the dog. Introduced the dog to the clicker. Did what I thought was "charging" the clicker (he certainly took the food without hesitation) and took him for short but brisk walk.

He's not bad on the lead. He became a little stubborn a couple of times and sat down refusing to walk. It happened in the same two places each time we circled the block. I'm reasonably certain we were near a favorite doggy mail drop he is accustomed to closely inspecting. I lured him into walking again with an exposed treat, but didn't give it until he was walking nicely again.

Returned to his back yard. Showed him the ball. Each time he nosed the ball I clicked and treated. Session 1, he did this 4 or five times and then wandered off around the corner. Turned out the lady of the house had just arrived home and her arrival was more interesting than me, the clicker and the treats.

I took a break.

Session 2. No interest in the ball. I bounced it, I rolled it, I held it up, I threw it. He figured out which pocket contained the treats and attempted to mug me for them, i.e., jumped up and held my thigh between his legs nosing my pocket. His owner rescued me.

I took another break.

Session 3: He successfully nosed the ball 4 times in a row when I held it in my hand extending it away from my body, I clicked and treated each time. I thought we were making progress. He decided to mug me again. This time holding my leg so tightly I couldn't push him away. I finally threw a treat into the yard, he chased it, I got indoors. I know this was a cowardly exit, but really, I could not gently break his grip and I'm over 6 feet tall, 200lbs+.

In retrospect. I don't think I sufficiently established the connection between the behavior and the click. (Rereading this it doesn't make sense. But that's how it felt.)

I think next time I'll mix in more "good doggie" talk and petting. Less food.

The mugging thing disturbs me. It seemed pretty clear he had decided to take the treats rather than work for them.

I finally asked some pointed questions about his past. He's around two years old and his first owner did no socialization at all. He was a yard dog, just as he is today.

He reportedly did nip one child one time. The kid was whacking him with a stick, the dog (puppy at that point) repeatedly tried to escape to no avail.

He was never fought. Actually he was never even trained to fight. I was misinformed. My apologies for my initial erroneous post. His muzzle is not actually even as scarred as I thought. It was dark the first time I saw him. There may have been some dirt involved.

FWIW, he weighs 70 lbs and is not nuetered.

I will start lobbying his owner to get involved in some formal training, but he seems content to have a yard dog and isn't likely to invest too much time or effort into making this dog a real pet.

Comments?

[Red_ACD_for_me]

QUOTE:I will start lobbying his owner to get involved in some formal training, but he seems content to have a yard dog and isn't likely to invest too much time or effort into making this dog a real pet.

Comments?

Tell him if he wanted a lawn ornament to sit in his yard and offer it minimal care he should have planted a tree....or got a statue of somesort. I will never understand why people like you are describing even have a dog.