Few questions about 3hen the whole teething/nipping period ends?

[Kayla]

Just curious about how long it takes most dogs to loose their baby teeth and stop nipping due to that and when it becomes an aggressive thing? The reason I'm asking is because my Rotti/GSD/Collie is about 4 and a half months old and still chews everything including us. I've been using a bitter apple spray on furinture which has helped and when he nips us we let out a high pitched eeee ( as yelping or screaming OW like your dying only made him more excited and would continue to nip harder then before). The eeee sound stops him immediatly however he still nips quite frequently especially when you go to pet him or put his lesh on some I'm wondering when he will grow out of this and if theirs anything else I should be doing?

In addition he also occasionaly gives me what I can best describe as doggie sass and occasionally when I ask him to do something ( be it get off the counter, sit, stay, down or whatever) he looks at me with a very deliberate stare, and will either snap at me while complying ( for instance snap as he's getting off the counter and proceed to sit down) or not snap but simply walk away. I know this is him trying to be dominate over me and trying to tell me he dosen't have to listen to me, so whenever he does it I say oh no you don't and gently but firmly put him into whatever position I asked him for and then give him a treat. He has already been to puppy obidence school and he isn't alllowed on the couch or bed to sleep with us, he also has to sit and stay before he's allowed to eat and isn't allowed to get up before we say ok. I'm not sure how many other ways I can convince him I'm top dog any suggestions to nip this behaviour in the butt?

Thanks
Kayla

[RedyreRottweilers]

1) please read the toybox article
2) please read these links on how to teach bite inhibition


http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_BiteInhibition.php

http://www.phsspca.org/training/puppy_biting.htm

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm

http://www.doglogic.com/obedienc.htm#biteinhib

http://www.aylmer-hull-spca.qc.ca/biteinhib_e.html

#3) please get in puppy training class as soon as possible

[Herschel]

The Shirley Chong article is great. Be consistent and it will pass in a couple of months. You'll get more zen about your furniture/carpet/etc. being chewed apart after a while and you'll be so glad when your dog grows out of it.

[Practical_Advice]

So you've been re-told to do everything you're ALREADY doing. Sounds like you have a horribly aggressive dog - there is no hope!

Just put him down. It's easier.



(Just kidding)

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

Thankfully I noticed the "Just Kidding" on the bottom.

Sounds like another round of puppy class would do him some good. Also, I strongly advise getting "Ceasar's Way". It's an excellent book, and I'm currently in the middle of reading it. Great Book. Good Luck!!! :)

[Brattina88]

I agree with Red :D great links...

I do NOT agree with Cesar's Way... there are *a lot* more effective, positive training techniques out there. I highly doubt this is a "dominant" thing (like Cesar often claims)... He's a puppy, doing what puppies do !

Sounds like he needs more exercise and mental stimulation. In addition to puppy walks, and the toy box (its a stick for easy access) suggestion, enrolling him in a training class would be great...

NILIF (http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm)

puppy exercise (http://www.petsmart.com/global/articles/article_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=985272369 6503892&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673268026&bmUID=1161661357980)
more (http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/play.html)

An important part of dog training is knowing to tell your dog what to do, instead of what not to do... ;)

[Kayla]

Thanks for the links, yup he's already been enrolled in puppy obidence school and just graduated last weekend. He will be going back for basic obidence at 6 months of age after he's neutered as the trainer recommended coming back at that age after working on and advancing everything they've learned in puppy obidence as by 6 months they have a better focus ( not that Duke is lacking any of that:P.

I enyoed the articles but they've basically only repeated what I've been trying, so I'm guessing If I stick with it overtime it should improve especially when he's neuters and finishes basic obidence. I deffiently agree with the advice about how many puppies are not mentally stimulated enough however Duke receives a min of three walks a day 30 mins to an hour each along with daily training sessions of 15 mins long (as not to make it booring) and lots and lots of fetch and play.

Kayla

[~Tucker&Me~]

Ditto Brattina!

I would stray FAR from 'Cesaers ways'

LOL

~Tucker

[Kayla]

So in your opinion then is 3 walks a day plus constant access to a variety of toys and humans to throw them for him is not enough mental stimulation and excersie or were you just agreeing with the cesar thing?

He also goes to a puppy play group once a week and will be back in basic obidence in a month once he's neutered ( yes he's already been through level one)

Oh one more question I don't do the alpha roll and do mainly the screetch when bitten and if he dosent stop get up and walk away however if when i come back he's still nipping ( and has already been out on a recent walk or fetch session) I'll put him in his crate to calm down of make him sit and then stand next to him and using stay and holding him their if nessicary to show that he does need to listen. Is this the same as the alpha roll as I've read the cons to doing that?

Thanks
Kayla

[Brattina88]

I believe she was referring to Cesar's Way ;)
...

I just wanted to add: keep in mind that the number of walks or the distance doesn't matter very much. Puppies and dogs need to be mentally stimulated ;)
For example, my GSD can run with me or jog along beside my bike for miles and she'll come home and still be ready to play. If I take her for a walk in the park, and incorporate some games and obedience randomly throughout the walk she'll be tired when I get home. Why? Because I've exercised her both physically and mentally... she had to think and move... a ball going back and forth often doesn't require much thinking sometimes...


Make sure your pup knows which toys are his. If you want him to play only with his toys, then he must be able to distinguish them from everything else. If his toys number in the dozens, then he will never be able to do this. Many people protest that even though the dog has "tons of toys, all over the house" of his own, he still takes things that are not his. Often that is the very problem -- he has so many toys strewn around the house amongst the children's toys, sneakers, shoes and articles of clothing, he cannot possibly keep straight which are his and which are not. Anything he can grab is a toy to him.
I think that your puppy is nipping at you to get a response... I would lay off of the screeching and step up the ignoring part. You may also want to give a little "eh-eh!" ask for a sit, and then give him a toy to play with instead. Puppy time outs do work, and can be a big help, especially if the pup is overstimulated and can't seem to listen.

Holding him isn't the same as an alpha roll. It may, however, lead to frustration and nipping because you are doing this. The wonderful thing about dog training, is we are humans and can outsmart the puppies so we can use our minds instead of our hands ;)

Here's a link to that sticky again, because I couldn't find it on this thread already LOL "Why your puppy need a toy box" (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43023)

He will learn that if he wants something to play with or chew on, he just has to go into his toy box and retrieve a toy. Periodically, hide yummy treats or stuffed Kongs in his toy box to increase its attraction.

I'll also suggest games which encourage positive behavior such as retrieve, catch, hide and seek, find it, Frisbee, and soccer...

I hope that helps and isn't too repetitive and boring for you :p
He sounds like a very smart puppy, I'm off to go look for pics you may have posted ... heh heh

[Kayla]

Ohh ok I see sorry not to sound like I was jumping down your throat Tucker & Me just wasn't sure what you were referring to. Just sometimes seems like people respond before reading all of the info I posted in the original one but still I aplogize If I was coming off rude:).

He has one toy box right now but it's to tall for him to reach into easily so I'm going to get a shallower one and decorate it with felt letter and non toxic glue which say Duke's Toy box:). I read an article today about teaching them to pick up their toys at the end of the night and put them back in the toy box so I can't wait to teach him how after I get him the new one and let him figure out why it's their and what excactly it is.

I also have a few special training toys that only come out in our training games (luckily I have a younger brother who will do any type of competitive game with Duke and I so we have recall races and situp competitions ( see who can get Duke to do the most situps, which are consecutive stand-to downs- to sits-to downs- to sits- to downs as well as stay races). We keep sessions short as not to bore him but he really likes it and it's a great way to reinforce everything he learned in school.

Just wanted to say thanks again for the articles:)
Cheers
Kayla

[RedyreRottweilers]

So did you actually READ this?

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

[Kayla]

Nah Is that what articles are for? I prefer to eat them personally:p

Yup I did, about the bite inhibitation about how she found playin games like tug of war and such were actually valuable tules to teach bite inhibitation rather then stir aggression like many people suggest and in addition teaching the leave it command everytime he backs off using a treat at first and so on ( which I like the idea of and am going to start practicing today).

Not sure if I agree with her views about the tug of war simply because my only other dog that i've lived with was an adult boxer who was already here with my uncle when we moved in with my mom's newboyfriend and was already an adult and knew not to bite. So Duke is my first time actually raising a puppy. We play fetch and soccer and go find this games and might add in a few tug of war games and then try what she suggested to see how he reacts and then if it seems to help our progress continue and if not ditch them for now.

Kayla

[RedyreRottweilers]

The article tells exactly how to teach a puppy NOT to bite, but you have to read it to learn how.

[RedyreRottweilers]

from http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt


Get a nice, smelly, really high on the delicious scale treat, let
the puppy know you have it and then close your hand over it. Let the
puppy lick, snuffle, poke, nudge, delicately nibble and try to get
that treat out of your hand. Eventually the puppy will give up and
back away or turn their head away--CLICK and open your hand so they
can get the treat.
This is what I call Doggie Zen: to get the treat, you must give up
the treat. It's the basis for most training--the foundation of "do
what I want and then we'll do what you want." Learning Doggie Zen is
the beginning of learning emotional control.
If your puppy bites harder than is acceptable, yelp and pull your
hand up out of their reach for a minute.
The first few times you do this, it may take quite a while for the
puppy to give up. Just be patient, smile and say NOTHING. The puppy
will eventually give up. Practice this exercise several times a day
and in as many different places (at home, in the yard, at the park,
in other people's houses, etc) as you can find.
Very quickly, the puppy will start to back away when they see you
hold out your closed hand. Voila! You have a signal! However, you
might prefer a verbal command. When the puppy is predictably backing
up when you present your closed hand, it's time to insert the verbal
command. Say "Leave It!" sweetly, hold out your closed hand, click
(when the puppy backs away) and open your hand. Anticipation (which
dogs excel at) will take over and the puppy will realize that the
words "Leave It!" mean you're about to hold out your closed hand.
When the puppy backs up well on the words "Leave It!" it's time to
incorporate this command into new situations. When you go into a new
situation, though, you have to go all the way back to kindergarten.
The easiest way to do it is to sit down and SILENTLY place the treat
on a chair next to you (assuming your puppy is large enough to reach
the seat of that chair). Let the puppy try to pry the treat out from
under your hand until the puppy gives up. When the puppy backs up or
turns their head away, click and move your hand so the puppy can get
the treat.
The puppy will learn to back off a bit quicker than they did the
first time. When the puppy is backing off when your hand goes over
the treat, it's time to add in the verbal "Leave It!" to this
situation.
Then start a new situation by dropping the treat on the floor and
covering it with your foot. Again, you'll have to go back to
kindergarten and re-teach it. This time, it should all go just a bit
quicker.
Keep figuring out new situations. Keep going back to kindergarten to
re-teach the "Leave It!" It will go just a little faster each time.
By the time your puppy reliably backs away from you when you say
"Leave It!" no matter what the circumstances are or where you are,
your puppy will be about four months old. Now it's time to start
incorporating "Leave It!" when your puppy wants to mouthplay. Start
off gradually, using "Leave It!" to stop mouthplay once every ten
times the puppy initiates mouthplay. Click and treat when the puppy
backs off. If the puppy doesn't back off, walk away and give the
puppy a time out. Over time, use "Leave It!" when your puppy
initiates mouthplay more and more often.

[Kayla]

lol well ya i figured that that's why I read it....um thanks for the link I guess....sorry you don't believe I read it?

[Brattina88]

... so... how is he doing? Any progress? ;)

[Kayla]

Well we've started playing a few new tug of war games surprisingly he didn't go for my hands at all (which I was hoping he would so I could try the method mentioned in the first article posted to screech and then get up and leave for a few miniuts). So at the end of the game I made him leave it, using a treat as he dosen't 100% know that command yet. I then tried sitting down on the floor which usually gets him to run over excitedly and sit on me and occasionally during his excited licking process he will nip me so tried that and sat down and when I went to pet him he grabbed my hand lightly and immediatly yelped got up and left the the room and came back 2 mins later. I repeated the process again and he didn't nip this time. He has deffiently done it less and less since I got him but I have a lot of family coming over today for a boxing day party so I'm going to brief everyone who comes downstairs ( family that hate dogs usually stay upstairs where my uncle lives and all of the cool people come downstairs to play with our boxer who passed away two months ago so this year it'll be Duke's turn to really test out how he behaves in a high traffick area) that he is still occasionally nipping because of teething and if he does nip you I apologize but please let out a high pitched Ow and if he does it again do the same thing and put him in his pen for two minutes and ignore him until you let him back out.

He's already had alot of socilization around a variety of people so today will just be a test to see how well he's abosrobed it all and how well I did gettind him used to a variety of situations. I will be keeping a close eye around him with the younger children more because he's teething nips wuld hurt more to them and I dont want them to start fearing dogs though most of them have pets of their own and already love dogs.

I'll let everyone know tommorow how it went but just wanted to add when I first got him he used to latch on to every body part very very hard so he has come along quite a bit but still has a bit more to go.

Thanks for the help
Kayla

[Kayla]

YAY well we had our boxing day party yesterday with about 50 new people in the house coming in and out all day and Duke was fantastic. Not only did he accept every person who came downstairs with lots of licks and kisses during any games he did nibble occasionally but it was very very light and everyone did the ouch and walked out of the room for two mins and by the end of it he virtually had completely stopped besides the occasional one during play however it was extremely gentle. He was jumping up on a few people when they first came in but everyone knew to ignore him until he went back on the ground and then pet him when he was sitting. Over all it went very well and he's deffiently gotten much more gentle and reduced the frequency of his nips:)

Kayla