I'd Like to Know More About the History of the APBT [Archive]

LuvinBullies

11-05-2006, 03:24 AM

This is a general and somewhat remedial outline of APBT history. My source at the bottom. I urge any gamedog members to expand on this 101 style APBT history outline.
Hope it helps answer a question or two. (If it doesn't help at all, please lie to me and say it did. I spent a long time reducing this to an outline!:))

APBT defined/early history/debates

American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - descendent of original English bull-baiting Bulldog , has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind.There are several types of dogs that are called "Pit Bulls."
-American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier (AST), Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT).
- These 3 dogs share common ancestry, but have different breeding criteria

APBT roots go back at least one hundred fifty years to England (excluding ancient bulldog history ).
-In late 18th and early 19th c."bulldogs" were bred for bull-baiting as sport, game catching, and bringing down cattle.
Historically, "Bulldog" did not mean a specific breed of dog, but rather it was applied to descendants of the ancient Mastiff- type dogs that excelled in bull-baiting.
- performance-bred working bulldogs of old resembled modern APBT's.
- todays APBT enthusiasts use "bulldog" to describe APBT's
Bull-baiting outlawed in England in 1835
- so matching two dogs against one another rose in popularity.
APBT history debate: were these pit fighting dogs a new breed of dog specially created for this new pastime?
-Some (i.e.. Richard Stratton) feel APBT is basically same breed as Renaissiance bull-baiting dogs and NOT mixed with terrier, as commonly accepted. These folks feel a bull-baiter/ terrier cross is more consistent with the English Bull Terrier's history, not APBT.
-Others (Dr Carl Semencic) argue the APBT is indeed a bull-baiter/terrier cross, and did not exist in its current form during Renaissance.
Proving early breed history is difficult
- Extreme secrecy of dog breeders. Breeders feared letting rivals discover secrets of success and replicating it.
By the mid-19th century the breed has all essential characteristics of today: awesome athletic abilitiy, gameness, easy-going temperament.

APBT crosses the pond
-Immediate APBT ancestors were Irish and English pit fighting dogs imported to U. S. mid-19th century.
-In America, these dogs were used as pit fighters, catch dogs (i.e., for forcibly retrieving stray hogs and cattle) and family guardians
-Breeders producing a slightly larger, leggier dog.
-From the early part of this century, it is rare to find a specimen over 50 lbs. (with a few notable exceptions). From 1900 to 1975 or so, there was probably a very small and gradual increment in the average weight of APBTs , without any loss in performance abilities.
APBT- the name game
Throughout 19th century, these dogs were known by many names:
-"Pit Terriers", "Pit Bull Terriers", "Half and Half's", "Staffordshire Fighting Dogs", "Old Family Dogs"(the Irish name), "Yankee Terriers"(the Northern name), and "Rebel Terriers"(the Southern name), and more.
In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the United Kennel Club (UKC) for the sole purpose of registering "Pit Bull Terriers"
- American Kennel Club wanted nothing to do with them.
-Bennet added "American" and dropped "Pit" from the name, this didn't please everyone so later "Pit" was added back in parentheses as a compromise.
- parentheses were later removed from the name

Early stardom and the road to distinguish the "official" APBT
In 1936, "Pete the Pup" in the "Lil Rascals" and "Our Gang" familiarized a wider audience with the APBT
-During this time the APBT was liked in America.
-kids of Lil Rascals generation wanted dogs just like "Pete the Pup".
AKC now jumped in, registered the breed as "Staffordshire Terrier"
- name changed to "American Staffordshire Terrier" (AST) in 1972 ( to distinguish from its smaller English cousin: Staffordshire Bull Terrier)
In 1936, the AKC, UKC, and ADBA version of the "Pit Bull" were identical since the original AKC stock came from pit fighting dogs, which were UKC and ADBA registered.

Due to different breeding goals, American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier split in both phenotype and spirit/temperament,
- both continue to have an easy-going, friendly disposition.
-Some feel after 60 years of different breeding goals, these dogs are now different breeds, others view them as two strains of same breed (working and show).
- ASTs tend to look alike within themselves more than APBTs
- APBTs have more wide range of appearance, because historic breeding goal was for performance in contests, not looks
-Some game-bred APBTs are practically indistinguishable from typical ASTs, most APBT's are leaner, leggier, lighter on toes, have more stamina, agility, speed, and explosive power.
From WWII - early 1980s,
-there were only a devoted few who knew the breed in intimate detail. These devotees typically knew much more about their dogs' ancestry than their own--they were often able to recite pedigrees back six or eight generations. They were a small group of knowledgeable dogmen.

Where it all went wrong for the modern day APBT:
APBTs became popular with public around 1980
- people with little or no knowledge of the breed owned and bred them
- these newcomers did not respect traditional breeding goals of the old-time APBT breeders.
-they began randomly breeding dogs to mass produce puppies as profitable commodities.
- neophytes started selecting dogs for breeding for the trait of human aggressiveness.
-Ignorants were owning and producing poorly bred, human-aggressive "Pit Bulls" for a mass market.
- media began its propensity for over-simplification and sensationalization, and gave rise to the anti-"Pit Bull" hysteria we now know.
- In spite of bad breeding practices over last 15 years or so, vast majority of APBTs remain very human-friendly.
The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all APBTs that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The APBT's passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested.
The APBT today
Today, the APBT is still occasionally used (underground and illegally) as a fighting dog in the United States; pit matches also take place in other countries where there are no laws or where the existing laws are not enforced. However, the vast majority of APBT's--even within the kennels of breeders who breed for fighting ability--never see any action in the pit.
- they are loyal, loving, companion dogs, working dogs, and even family pets .
One activity that has really grown in popularity among APBT fanciers is weight pulling contests.
-Weight-pulls retain something of the spirit of competition of the pit fighting world, but without the blood or sorrow.
-APBTs are ideally suited for these contests, in which the refusal to quit counts for as much as brute strength.
- APBTs hold world records in several weight classes.
Another activity that the APBT is ideally suited for is agility competition,
-his athleticism and determination can be widely appreciated.
The APBT also continues his popularity as a naturally able bodied hunting dog for bear (where legal) and hog hunting.
Some APBTs have been trained and done well in Schutzhund sport
-these dogs, however, are more the exception than the rule. APBT's excel more in sport exclusive of the need for human aggression (bitework) or guardianship

More information on the history of the breed in Dr. Carl Semencic's book "The World of Fighting Dogs".

Books by Richard Stratton

SOURCE: History of APBT

Michael Burr

LuvinBullies

11-05-2006, 03:58 AM

I'm glad you asked. I really enjoyed the other thread before it was closed. I hope Game-dog folks will come back and continue on with educating us and talk about the history of this breed.

I adore your post and hospitality. Thank you!:p

Zoom

11-05-2006, 10:43 AM

That outline helped me quite a bit! Thank you for putting the time and effort into it!

Brattina88

11-05-2006, 11:15 AM

I know they were war dogs back in WW1 ;) I did a huge project on WW1 dog's in history a couple years back. Very interesting, and cool stuff

Renee750il

11-05-2006, 12:00 PM

Oh boy! :D I've only got a limited amount of time right now, but I can't wait to get back to this when I don't have to run and do a thousand different things . . .

jess2416

11-05-2006, 07:04 PM

LuvinBullies thanks for the info, in a easy to understand way...:)

I have also learned quite a bit, from reading over there and needless to say it has been interesting :D

LuvinBullies

11-05-2006, 09:03 PM

I know they were war dogs back in WW1 ;) I did a huge project on WW1 dog's in history a couple years back. Very interesting, and cool stuff

During WWI., while we were neutral, there was a pro-American war poster which illustrated the rival European nations with their national dogs dressed in military uniforms. In the center representing the United States was an APBT. The caption under the APBT read: "I'm neutral, but not afraid of any of them." :D

Brattina88

11-05-2006, 09:25 PM

like these? :)
http://kaneskennel.tripod.com/160e8690.jpg
"We're not looking for trouble, but we're ready for it"

http://kaneskennel.tripod.com/174cdcb0.gif

Stubby (http://www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257892&pp=12&n=1) is the "first famous" war dog. A pit bull type - WW1 :p

LuvinBullies

11-05-2006, 09:30 PM

Renee750il

11-05-2006, 09:33 PM

Great outline, Luvin! Thanks!

jess2416

11-05-2006, 09:34 PM

Renee750il

11-05-2006, 09:36 PM

I've got Stubby up on another window now - so it's working for me.

jess2416

11-05-2006, 09:48 PM

Stubby worked for me too...:D I have read about him before :D

but the others didnt :(

Brattina88

11-06-2006, 07:27 PM

sorry! maybe this one?

http://kaneskennel.tripod.com/id24.htm

jess2416

11-06-2006, 07:30 PM

sorry! maybe this one?

http://kaneskennel.tripod.com/id24.htm

that one showed up :)

squirtsmom

11-06-2006, 08:36 PM

Post on game dog and you will get loads of information.:)

LuvinBullies

11-06-2006, 09:51 PM

. . .
I think of all the pain that dog and the other "losers" went through. I also think of all the terrible things that most likely went into training the "winner' and all the "losers".

Is it just me..... :confused: :( :mad:

I am sure it is not just you, unfortunately there are a lot of people who feel this way. I understand why- it's just the way we are conditioned in this day and age. Us spoiled rotten americans- what a bunch. So, does anyone ever think about all the pain people have gone through so we can enjoy our TeVo or DSL and gripe online about a particular dog's history? Who fought to the death for our luxuries? Who died for them? Do we enjoy our current freedoms as a direct result of human vices from long ago? Oh yeah baby. We light fireworks in celebration of it once a year, too. APBT enthusiasts celebrate a breed who has endured much through the ages, and it is BECAUSE of these hardships, NOT IN SPITE OF these hardships (quoting words from a man wiser than all of us on the matter) the APBT is what he is today. The selective breeding and heritage of the APBT has created an animal nothing short of "amazing." Yes, APBT's fought in matches. The only historic APBTs which were ever allowed to contribute to the genepool were dogs who engaged willingly, courageously and dutifully in their tasks, while maintaining undying and unprecedented human loyalty. However one may feel today about culling, dogfighting, etc.--it is only through this history that we may enjoy our dogs of today. We sit in our comfy seats because people died and wars were fought- and we enjoy our personal favorite breeds because dogs died while paving the way for our modern day breeds.
To address the misinformed about "training winners": No, and I mean NO true APBT was ever "trained" to be a winner at anything. Winners of the APBT world (from historic matches to modern day hunts and competitions of strength and agility) are not trained- they are born. The heart of the APBT is the driving force behind his determination to win, not the training.

elegy

11-06-2006, 10:28 PM

I am sure it is not just you, unfortunately there are a lot of people who feel this way. I understand why- it's just the way we are conditioned in this day and age. Us spoiled rotten americans- what a bunch. So, does anyone ever think about all the pain people have gone through so we can enjoy our TeVo or DSL and gripe online about a particular dog's history? Who fought to the death for our luxuries? Who died for them? Do we enjoy our current freedoms as a direct result of human vices from long ago? Oh yeah baby. We light fireworks in celebration of it once a year, too. APBT enthusiasts celebrate a breed who has endured much through the ages, and it is BECAUSE of these hardships, NOT IN SPITE OF these hardships (quoting words from a man wiser than all of us on the matter) the APBT is what he is today. The selective breeding and heritage of the APBT has created an animal nothing short of "amazing." Yes, APBT's fought in matches. The only historic APBTs which were ever allowed to contribute to the genepool were dogs who engaged willingly, courageously and dutifully in their tasks, while maintaining undying and unprecedented human loyalty. However one may feel today about culling, dogfighting, etc.--it is only through this history that we may enjoy our dogs of today. We sit in our comfy seats because people died and wars were fought- and we enjoy our personal favorite breeds because dogs died while paving the way for our modern day breeds.

i'm sorry, but this just gives me the heebie jeebies. i love this breed and i respect their heritage, but... yeah. i have an awfully hard time believing that this breed was developed for anything other than money and egos. as far as only breeding dogs who were loyal to humans? chinaman was a known man-biter and yet his name was put up in lights earlier in this thread. freaking beautiful dog, i'll give him that, but nothing to glorify.

DryCreek

11-06-2006, 10:56 PM

chinaman was a known man-biter

Chinaman had transference aggression, not human aggression. He only bit when being stopped from doing what he wanted to do, which just happened to be trying to fight another dog.

Whether or not you agree with the history of these dogs, to spread misinformation about it is only feeding into the hype surrounding the breed.

Dog fighting is a very emotional issue, but to allow emotion to overshadow facts is just as wrong as the fighting issue itself.

LovinBullies, good post. You seem to have a good understanding of this breed.

GHOST

11-06-2006, 11:46 PM

I think of all the pain that dog and the other "losers" went through. I also think of all the terrible things that most likely went into training the "winner' and all the "losers".

Is it just me..... :confused: :( :mad:

i do see where you are coming from but the dog i'm speaking of was in the early 1900's almost 100 years ago,,,like i said before,, you don't have to agree with it ,, it's repecting where they came from amstaffer,,, and what they went through,,,

i'm not talking about recent days this is long history,,,

24 wins and no losing it is amazing that was a tough ol dog,,

Gas House

11-07-2006, 01:16 AM

I think of all the pain that dog and the other "losers" went through. I also think of all the terrible things that most likely went into training the "winner' and all the "losers".

Is it just me..... :confused: :( :mad:

Well, the thing is, through pain, great things are born. Look at the US for instance, how much pain and blood was shed for this country to be born. Of course now that we are so 'sensitive', the country is going to hell. Now you can wipe your rear end with the flag, rights ore disappearing left and right, and the minority is legislating laws that the majority do not agree with.

Same with the APBT(from here out I shall refer to as a 'bulldog'). Because of the way the dog came about, through pain, created the best dog in the world!( Now, dont get me wrong, I do not fight them. At one time I was into the game, but that has been a good 20 years ago.) They are more resilient than any other dog, that I have been around. Affectionate, loyal, funny, personallity,dedicated, sensitive. These are words that describe the dog that PETA would have you think are monsters and in need of extinction. Though the history of how the breed came about is not for the faint of heart, it did create the best dog in the world. Dont believe me? How bout this, study on how to contain and be a good bulldog owner, then go to a reputable breeder, and get one. I GUARANTEE you that you will never want any other dog. I have had several different breeds as a child and youngster, but when I got my first bulldog, it was over for the others. Whatever I need in a dog, it is in these. As a matter of fact, the more 'game bred' the dog, the better lap dog they make. Doesnt sound right does it? But it is true.

Gas House

11-07-2006, 01:36 AM

And just to clarify something, Loyalty was not a factor in breeding. It was a by product of what the dogs were bred for. It is true that MOST(not all) of the human aggressive dogs were culled.
Scenerio:
Bill and Jon are going to match two dogs, Right before the match, dogs are weighed, and then Bill washes Jon's dog. Now, if Jon's dog is a crazed man biter, is Bill gona wash Jon's dog? Not likely, therefor, word gets out, and Jon cannot match his dog. BTW the washed the dogs to make sure the opponent did not put some poison or something on the dog to make the other one not want to bite it.

One more thing. It is true that without good genetics the dog wasnt worth matching, but to say that training has nothing to do with how well the dog does is quite wrong. The dogs, once they turned on, would be "rolled and schooled" to see how they would do, and 'Learn" how to handle different situations. So to say the dog was a born champ is wrong. If the dog was not schooled, no one in their right mind would match the dog! Just like hog hunting, only a fool would turn an untrained dog loose on a wild 300# hog. The dog would die very quickly.

Think about a prize fighter, genetics go a long way, but if the fighter is not conditioned and trained, and sparred allot, would he win the title? NO>

BTW, I understand you are wanting to hear the truth, well , I dont use sugar nor water it down. If you dont like that, tell me and I will not post anymore.

GHOST

11-07-2006, 04:08 AM

now we had a good discussion last time,,, come on folks

DryCreek

11-07-2006, 09:08 AM

http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/dogfighting_fact_sheet/

http://www.workingpitbull.com/dogfighting.htm

Those are a couple of sites but it is very simple...
Torture....Having other dogs rip at your flesh
Abused... Put in harms way for entertainment, fed diets meant for short term success and not long term health. The person they love and trust uses them for vacarious living instead of protecting and caring.
Neglect... At best, dogs are not treated as members of a family or pack but rather tools of torture and entertainment. At worst they are left to suffer and die after being torn apart.

There is simply nothing the empathic and sane mind care do or say that can defend this terrible activity.

Do I have to prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow? Dogfighting by its very nature all three. (Having two dogs attack, rip apart and kill each other is torture and abuse AND neglect) If you can't see that then please vist a mental health professional.

Again, I say, what experience do any of the people on those two propaganda inspired sites have with the dogmen of history?

I have never seen a willing participant in torture.....if a dog chooses to fight, how is that torture?

The dogs of old were put in the pit to determine the worthiness of their breeding, not for entertainment, and the diets they were fed ( I've read a quite a few keep diets) involved healthy food that provided for all the dogs nutrition requirements. Better than the dog food we use these days.

Any quality breeder of dogs knows that you do it for the love of the breed, there is no profit from having a litter, especially if you keep most or all of the pups. You don't make any kind of living at it.

If you've never been on their yards, how can you say how the dogs were treated? You can't just assume that's the way it was. I've already addressed the torture and entertainment aspects above so no need to do so again.

Left to suffer and die? If you want some good advice on how to do care for your dog after an injury of any sort, talk to the dogmen of old. They knew a lot about fixing their animals as how can you breed a good dog if it's dead?

Unbend a little and try to get past your personal aversion to the history of this breed and you might learn something.

The comment on professional help I will let go as I'm trying to be factual, not emotional.

Have a nice day.

GHOST

11-07-2006, 10:08 AM

I am sorry but when someone asks me to prove that dogfighting is torture, abuse or neglect.....it is like asking the good friend or family member of African American to prove that Slavery was a bad thing.

Now some of you will jump on me about comparing the black holocaust to Dogfighting but in arguements with people; drawing a comparison they understand better will help drive a point home.

An exaggeration in an arguement such as this can inspire empathy and understanding.....hopefully it works here.

FYI I am biracial so please don't call this a racist statement...As I fully understand bothsides of that coin. ;)

i sympathize with what u are saying i really do,,,, but to understand how the pitbulls of today came to be ,,, you have to look back into they're history,,, kinda like the comparison you made,,, you don't have to respect the ppl that done it but at least respect the dog,,,it's what has given us the great dogs we have today,,, thats all i,m trying to say,,, understand both sides of my coin,,,

elegy

11-07-2006, 10:34 AM

Chinaman had transference aggression, not human aggression. He only bit when being stopped from doing what he wanted to do, which just happened to be trying to fight another dog.

and that makes it acceptable??!! "my dog only bites me if i try to stop him from doing something he wants to do." hell, if that happened in my household i'd be hamburger.

HE BIT HUMANS. end of story. if dogmen were the fine upstanding citizens that we're supposed to believe that they are, he would not have been bred.

Renee750il

11-07-2006, 11:12 AM

DAMMIT people!

History is history - learn from it. If you don't want to learn, don't. That's your perogative, but stop trying to punish and berate those who care enough to learn where their dogs came from and better understand their responsibilities.

My Filas were once highly prized for slave recovery. Ugly - a lot uglier than fighting, but true, and knowing that and knowing why they were so efficient gives me a much better handle on how to be an effective and responsible human to my dogs.

i sympathize with what u are saying i really do,,,, but to understand how the pitbulls of today came to be ,,, you have to look back into they're history,,, kinda like the comparison you made,,, you don't have to respect the ppl that done it but at least respect the dog,,,it's what has given us the great dogs we have today,,, thats all i,m trying to say,,, understand both sides of my coin,,,

Thank you, GHOST. That was well said.

chinchow

11-07-2006, 11:22 AM

Sorry, but there is no excuse for dog fighting, ever.

It was a sport for humans to gawk at, it was not for the dogs, so don't try to say it was. If humans were more compassionate, then perhaps many dogs lives could've been spared. You cannot glorify bloodsports, just because you like them, and because you think they are acceptable. There is a reason they are illegal today, and they should've been illegal then too. These dogs were not just used for this type of "work" as it's been called, they are extremely versatile dogs, as most of the more agile bully breeds are.

I feel sorry for anyone who would've condoned this sport back then, and anyone who condones it now.

I agree that you can learn from history, however. We've learned from history what NOT to do. Unfortunately, not everyone has learned that. I learn from my breeds' histories all the time. Most people don't know as much about Chows as they think they do, and after many many many years of owning them, I'm still learning.

Miakoda

11-07-2006, 11:27 AM

i sympathize with what u are saying i really do,,,, but to understand how the pitbulls of today came to be ,,, you have to look back into they're history,,, kinda like the comparison you made,,, you don't have to respect the ppl that done it but at least respect the dog,,,it's what has given us the great dogs we have today,,, thats all i,m trying to say,,, understand both sides of my coin,,,

I honestly think that is impossible for many self-proclaimed "pit bull" lovers. They love the stigma of "I saved a poor little pittie who would've been a bait dog had I not rescued him", but to actually love the dog from what it truly is, I doubt it. People enjoy saying "I own a pit bull that I rescued", yet they turn around & portray it as a Golden Retriever. They REFUSE to accept history & think that the people who literally "made" these dogs are the scum of the earth. They hate what they did with the dogs, they hate how they bred the dogs, & they hate the attributes (dog aggression, etc.) that come along with it. They accuse people who research the breed's history of being dogfighters themselves & say "No good person would ever do such a horrible thing" (I'm talking about research & reading here). They say no good person would enjoy reading about the history of the breed. These same people want to change the breed to suit their own selfish whims so they can have a dog that looks a certain way (i.e. certain color, certain head size, certain chest width, etc) & is a great dog to take to dog parks & allow to run off leash in the front yard to play because these dogs would "never ever hurt a poor wittle doggie like themself". They see no wrong in changing the breed to suit "modern day needs" because they truly do NOT care about the blood, sweat, & tears that went into forming the breed nor do they truly care for what the breed entails.

Now explain to me how this is all "love"?

Bahamutt99

11-07-2006, 01:12 PM

Guys, you're reading a discussion about the history of the APBT. Like it or not, the breed was bred to fight. There's going to be blood and other disagreeable things discussed, and people are going to fall on either side of the issue. There's no point in turning the breed's history into a present-day debate. Its not going to change what happened many years ago.

Hopefully there's nobody that denies the breed's history. You'd be doing a disservice by not helping yourself and other Pit Bull/AmStaff owners prepare for the likelihood of dog-aggression as their dog matures. Know what's in your breed and learn to live with it, don't try to pretend that it doesn't exist just because you don't like it.

PixieSticksandTricks

11-07-2006, 01:46 PM

Why must every convo about pitbulls turn into a debate :rolleyes: . Its getting old.

11-07-2006, 01:47 PM

Renee750il

11-07-2006, 01:55 PM

Why must every convo about pitbulls turn into a debate :rolleyes: . Its getting old.

I guess because we still don't have human aggression under control ;)

PixieSticksandTricks

11-07-2006, 01:56 PM

I guess because we still don't have human aggression under control ;)

Lol so true Renee :p .

chinchow

11-07-2006, 02:49 PM

I'm not starting a debate. But I get extremely upset when people CONDONE what was done.

I've read the Pit Bull history myself, and sure I got a little sick while reading it, but I learned. I don't hate the dog, for any of it's traits. I'ved owned the breed more than once and would love to own it again. And it's no secret that their past is still present in the eyes of some people, unfortunately.

Certain histories need to remain just that.

GHOST

11-07-2006, 03:22 PM

thanks renee,,, i'm not condoning dogfighting in any way,,,,i'm not saying for anyone to respect the ppl who done it,,,, what about the dogs,,,, to truely love something ,, u must know it's history,,,like it or not,,,

THANK YOU MIA AND RENEE GOOD POST

ppl was quick to label me a dogfighter in the last thread,,,,i love my dogs,, and even a true dogman care for they're dogs wether fought or not,, they are well taken care of,,,, now for as byb,, thats alot of whats wrong with the breed,,, you got lot of young punks out there breeding and nowdays dogs are so plentiful they starve them and everything under the sun,,,

Amalthea

11-07-2006, 03:55 PM

I have a question that is somewhat off-topic but sorta relates to this...what exactly is "bull baiting?" I got the idea that it was using a dog to get a bull riled up...for entertainment (not something I agree with at all, btw)... does the dog have to fight the bull then, or is it just there to get the bull upset and acting mean etc? I have a book on AKC dog breeds, and on all the pictured breeds, they have a little "history" section and I noticed that some of the breeds had "bull baiting" in their historical uses section, along with dogfighting. I just never really understood the term "bull baiting" and wondered if someone could explain to me what it is. I will say it is very sad the kind of things people had dogs doing in the past to entertain them, but it is important to know the history of a breed you love, and I do love the APBT, they are awesome dogs.

Renee750il

11-07-2006, 04:04 PM

Here's a link that has a good explanation of the old practice of bull baiting http://www.bulldoginformation.com/en...g-history.html

DryCreek

11-07-2006, 04:26 PM

History is history, in the past... Attitudes and ideas were a lot different then. To say that we condone or we enjoy dogfighting because we are defending the history of our breed is ridiculous. Not one of us here has said such a thing.

What we are trying to do is teach you that dogfighting was not a frowned upon thing in history so to apply today's morals and values to the past just doesn't make sense.

Just because you think it's a reprehensible thing now, does not make it right for you to tack on your emotional reactions to history. A lot of history is disgusting but we can't change the past.

The men who historically fought these animals treated them well, loved them and honored them. They were kept as healthy, mentally and physically, as possible so as to do the job they were created for to the best of their abilities.

All I ask is that you stop projecting your abhorrence to the old sport into improper judgment of the old dog men.

If you want to learn, you must learn to listen. If you don't want to learn, stop reading this post. Argumentativeness does not help the others who are actually trying to learn about this noble breed.

Amalthea

11-07-2006, 04:45 PM

thanks for the info Renee. That is pretty awful, especially hearing that many of these dogs came away from baiting with broken bones, severe injuries, or died. I know that people have been arguing for respecting the history of the dog and not judging what the breed was doing in the past, but it is hard for me to understand how someone who truly loves their dog could put them in an arena where they will likely be injured or killed doing their "sport". I know dogfighting isn't the same as bull-baiting, but I would suspect that the broken bones, maiming and death is just as much of a risk when you have two dogs fighting each other. I mean, a person who had their dogs involved in dogfighting could say they love their dog and have pride in how many fights the dog won, but what happens when their prize-fighter ends up losing a match and dies? There goes the fantastic dog they were so proud of, and for what??

I know a lot of disgusting things have happened to both people and animals throughout history though. The bull-baiting is really no worse than bull fights where the matador slays the bull after the "fight", or the footage I've seen (I think from Mexico, can't remember for sure) where they had bulls running loose in the streets as part of a celebration, ending with people in the balconies and on the streets shooting the bulls with colored darts until they were covered in the things and bleeding to death. :( I eat meat and I'm not a big animal-rights activist that will tell you to end all use of animals like PETA does (actually I really hate PETA), but it does touch a nerve with me to hear of animals being tormented for entertainment.

Renee750il

11-07-2006, 04:52 PM

Time moves on and people - and viewpoints - evolve and change. One day future generations will look back at OUR history (hopefully) and find our warfare and chauvinism deplorable in much the same manner that we deplore the idea of being entertained by pitting animals against each other.

elegy

11-07-2006, 06:55 PM

History is history - learn from it. If you don't want to learn, don't. That's your perogative, but stop trying to punish and berate those who care enough to learn where their dogs came from and better understand their responsibilities.

excuse me, but knowing about where my dogs came from does not mean i have to sit here and romanticise dogfighting or glorify dogmen. they were selfish, greedy men who were out to create the ultimate fighting machine not for the good of the dog, but for what it would bring to them as the breeders.

yes, it is time gone by, but that does not make those days "the grand old days". it just makes it the past.

i can sit here with my two bulldogs and respect them as bulldogs and honor them as bulldogs without treating them as if they're golden retrievers or looking at them as if they're golden retrievers and i find it extremely offensive that just because i don't think dogfighting was way cool that i don't understand what these dogs are all about and can't own them responsibly.

Renee750il

11-07-2006, 07:50 PM

No one is asking you to think it was "way cool." :rolleyes: I find war despicable, but I can respect the genius of a great tactician - even if I loathe his ideals.

Amstaffer

11-07-2006, 08:27 PM

I am a history teacher and realize the need to learn from history.

When I read the history of the Pit Bull the lesson I think is most important to learn is not to let our selfish and evil blood lust allow us to continue to take advantage of a noble dog breed.

The reason I jumped in this thread because someone posted how amazing it was that a dog won 24 fights, sure that dog was tough but how much carnage did he leave in his wake?

Can't more of you empathize with dogs? Why don't dog fighters become ultimate fighters? If they like mortal combat and perfection of physical strength then do it themselves.

Creek You said you have never heard of a torture victim engage in anything it/they didn't want to? I guess you have never heard of some of the worse type of torture.... Sexual Abuse, Children who are tortured by people they love and trust often go on to torture others. Many psychologist say that the tortured often go on to torture and think they "want" to but they know it is wrong and wish they could stop. Thought patterns of human is more complex but I hope you understand the comparison.

Just because someone (or somedog) does something terrible don't think that they haven't been trained or genetically exploited (in case of dogs) to act that way. Given free run over your life, someone could "train" or brainwash you into doing some very bad things.

Renee750il History is History and we must learn all the lessons and not just glorify some of it. Example: While learning about all the great things the USA has done like defeat the Evil of Hitler and Imperial Japan, we must also learn the lessons of Japanese internment camps and the Turning away of Jewish refugees prior to the Holocaust.

Don't get mad at those of us who cringe when the "True-Dogmen" are revered because we view them as actors in a very dark tradgey. We should all love the Pit Bulls for surviving their abusive history. We just get frustrated when we read post who "appear" to condone and sympathize or even place value with dog fighters. (one poster will not admit dogs involved in fighting are abused :( )

After reading recent posts by some like "Ghost" I think they are starting to understand where we are coming from. I for one understand that many of the Game Dog visitors have a passion for their dogs and I don't want to suggest otherwise.

In summary.... If you study history make sure to see it all. All points of view are needed to complete a picture. The glorious and the evil.

PS... by the way its not just their history .... there are still a lot of illegal dog fighters around, "True-Dogmen" and street punks.

elegy

11-07-2006, 08:35 PM

No one is asking you to think it was "way cool." :rolleyes: I find war despicable, but I can respect the genius of a great tactician - even if I loathe his ideals.

and you can discuss the past without celebrating it.

Amstaffer

11-07-2006, 08:44 PM

Now explain to me how this is all "love"?

I take great pride in all the parts of both of my dogs. However neither of my dogs have DA issues or HA for that matter. My dogs have all the positive features of the Pit Bull with none of the negative (and every breed has draw backs) I defy anyone who meets my dogs to attempt to dislike them. They have wonderful personalities...ok I'll stop bragging...anyway, my point being there are lots of Pit Bulls who don't have DA issues and their is no need to link the practices of those who bred for it to the positives of this breed.

Before someone says well your dogs are Amstaffs....Sal is but Athena was in her mothers tummy when Police raided a dog fighting ring. Also the guy who lives next to me has a APBT with papers who is not DA.... so it is possible. BTW Sal and the APBT "Elwood" play together all the time under supervison and have done so for several years with never a problem.

I will admit that these "True Dog-men" helped create a breed that turned out to be very human loving and down right comical; if some of the Game Dog visitors will admit that these "True Dog-men" are also responsible for truly evil acts of abuse to a breed with all love.

LuvinBullies

11-07-2006, 09:00 PM

Comparing the soldiers who died for our freedoms to Dogs who were/ are Tortured, Abused and Neglected for Scum bags trying to compensate for their own "short comings" in a sadistic form of entertainment is misguided at best and nothing short of disgusting....however it is very revealing of the author.

Yup. You got me. I'm a mean old person who fights her dogs every other weekend. I've accidentally revealed myself and blown my cover.

I have never even had the pleasure of owning a gamedog! I own two speutered, unregistered pits (one I purchased from a BYB before I pulled my head out of my bum and realized where the APBTs true horrors came from) and a Great Dane who is a hurricane Katrina rescue. I just rescued a deaf pit bull and paid for her spay and transport to her forever home 500 miles away. I write letters upon letters to mayors and legislators defending my breed.

Now check this out- it wasn't just soldiers who died for our freedoms or made it possible for us to live here, dig deeper.

I cannot believe this has devolved into debate again. I had much higher hopes for this thread.

Thank you to those (Ghost, Renee, DryCreek and others I've forgotten) who manage to keep their personal judgements at bay long enough to learn and/or teach. You are are the true allies of the APBT.

LuvinBullies

11-07-2006, 09:12 PM

and you can discuss the past without celebrating it.

There is a difference between celebrating history which has lead to a wonderful outcome, and celebrating less than noble actions from the past.

We are taught to love our forefathers- and we should. Even though many of them are responsible for entire tribes being slaughtered -women and children included. We do not celebrate their vices- only their glories. We regret any horrors of the past- in both the APBT and American History.

pancho

11-07-2006, 11:49 PM

I thought I would register and try to answer a few questions. If anyone has any. I am an old man who has raised pit bulls for over 40 years. I was around the dogs before it became a felony to match them. I know some of the well known breeders of the old days.
I don't argue, I will tell the truth about the way it was many years ago. Please if you just want to argue there are others that will gladly step up.
Hope I can pass on a little info to those who want it.
I am sure there will be those on both sides who will not like what I have to say. I can't help what happened many years ago, I can only try to explain what I have seen.

Bahamutt99

11-08-2006, 12:52 AM

I think a lot of people who haven't been around the breed see things differently. When you own Pit Bulls, there's always a chance you're going to see a fight, whether you want to or not. It happens in spite of precautions and training. And the more you see it, and have to break it up, the more desensitized you become to it. And all Pit Bull books address fighting, whether glorifying or villifying it, so you become comfortable with the terms through reading them repeatedly. It doesn't mean we're glorifying it, or that we partake. You start to develop a respect for the past, and just don't look at it the same way that other people would.

Its really hard to explain if you haven't had your nose in the books, absorbing information from other people involved in the breed, etc. My husband and I were staying with some family friends. They had a rowdy Lab mix pup, and I had my Pit Bull. We were letting the dogs play (supervised) in the living room, and the pup's owner started pointing out how he thought his dog would do good in a fight, because she "fought with her whole body" or some such nonsense. I tried to explain what attributes Loki had that would make her a better fighter in the hypothetical sense, and he wanted to hear nothing of dog fighting, because he didn't agree with it. Somehow, it was a different entity when talked about in reference to a mixed puppy rather than the breed that was bred to do it.

Owners of other breeds just don't view it in the same light as Pit Bull owners. When a fight breaks out in a Pit Bull owner's house, its not the end of the world, or a sign of greater evil within the dog, or warning that the dog is going to turn on children. Its as normal as when a greyhound takes off running in the yard after a rabbit. And you don't get rid of the dog, but rap yourself on the head for letting it happen and change what you did so it doesn't happen again.

LuvinBullies

11-08-2006, 08:49 PM

Here's a novel suggestion . . . why don't we get back to the subject?

You are a doll, honey!:D

Pancho is an experienced man...I've been hoping someone who is interested might ask him a question or two. So I'll ask...Pancho, tell us a story about one of your favorite dogs you owned years ago who is a shining example of what an APBT should be.

pancho

11-08-2006, 10:23 PM

The people here do not seem to really want to know anything more. Most think they already know it all. They would rather argue about things they know nothing about.
I will withdraw my offer. All of you can just get back to your arguing.

Brattina88

11-08-2006, 10:40 PM

That's not very fair. I have been lurking on this thread to see what I can learn... Sorry I didn't post, I guess (??)

Pancho is an experienced man...I've been hoping someone who is interested might ask him a question or two. So I'll ask...Pancho, tell us a story about one of your favorite dogs you owned years ago who is a shining example of what an APBT should be.
ditto . . . and, do you have any old(er) pics ?? There seems to be different 'types' today, and I was just wondering. I often like the looks and abilities of breeds "back in the day" like the GSD, for example...

:confused:

Kurby

11-08-2006, 10:56 PM

what the heck happened here? This topic was going so great until people started arguing and debating again? and its the same people who kept arguing from the previous thread. ITS HISTORY. PAST. DECADES AGO. If some people who truly loves the breed glorify what it used to do SO WHAT???? THE TOPIC IS HISTORY.. LIKE IT OR NOT THER IS THE UGLY SIDE AND IT IS PART OF HISTORY. SOME PEOPLE EMBRACE IT.. SOME DONT. DEAL WITH! EVERYTIME I POST I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE DEAL WITH IT.. YOU CANT CHANGE THEIR MIND SO WHY THE HECK ARGUE? TO PROVE YOUR POINT? WE KNOW WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE HOW WE VIEW THINGS JUST BECAUSE YOU SAID SOMETHING.

Can we get back to the topic now?

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 12:09 AM

Pancho, I have been lurking also, keeping up on the views and I will say I've learned alot. I want to say first of all, I dont agree with fighting the dogs, it makes my skin crawl. But, it is the history of this breed. One that cant be erased. One thing I have learned in the years is "old" folks have stories to share and tell. Some are shocking. I've listened to war stories, stories of the depression, stories from people who were put on the orphan train and ship acrossed the country where folks would look them over and decide which ones they would "adopt". Kids adopted to work on farms, do house cleaning, work in stores, ect. I would love to hear some of your stories. I'm sure I wont agree with how it was in the past, I may not like it, and it'll make me sick to think people out there want to keep the "old" ways alive. But I'd still love to hear what you have to say.

11-09-2006, 12:14 AM

I don't have any specific questions, but I am very interested in hearing what you have to say, Pancho. :)

jess2416

11-09-2006, 12:31 AM

I'm interested too....

otch1

11-09-2006, 01:32 AM

Some of these posts concerned me... "an eye for an eye" and using dogs in that context? Hope that wasn't serious. Pancho, come back. We need someone with true "hands on" experience in this breed, and 40+ years, makes you the man!!

otch1

11-09-2006, 10:57 AM

Guys... Pancho has a good reason not to waste his time responding now. Lol!!I understood this thread to be a request for factual information about the history, origin and progression of the breed to date... and hearing from someone with 40+ years in the breed was what I was hoping to hear. Again... come back Pancho and enlighten some of us, who'd truly like to hear of your experience.

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 01:41 PM

I dont want any sugar coating, I want the facts, the way it really was. History is full of shocking things. Dig back into family histories, a person could be shocked at why their ancestors came to the states. African Americans living with the fact their ancestors were used as slaves, treated as if they were animals. We look back at the history of things and we dont glorify it, we dont approve of it. Go back far enough and there were the gladiators. The entertainment of watching men tossed in an arena to fight to the death. Sick entertainment. We dont approve of that, but we learn about it. Hopefully what happen's with learning about the history of something, we learn from it.

We dont ask to hear about the history of this breed because we want to glorify it and give it our stamp of approval, we want to learn, to understand it all, and in the end, teach other's to try to protect this breed.

Until Game-dogs came over to this site, anytime I was to see someone walk a pitbull and avoid us, I suspected them as being fighters. Anytime I seen a pitbull chained with one of those large chains again, I suspected fighters. Anytime I watched animal cops and seen them take in a DA pitbull I believed along with them that this dog was most likely dangerous to have around. I knew NOTHING about this breed! If someone would have moved in next door to me with a pitbull, chained it when it was out on a large chain, I would have been one of those neighbors suspecting the worse of my neighbors. I hate to even admit that stuff but I'm sure I'm not alone with what I thought. So Pancho, teach away. You have several here who arent afraid of learning the history.

silverpawz

11-09-2006, 02:05 PM

There's a lot of talk about 'learning' on this thread. What exactly are we trying to learn? All I see is talk of dog fighting.

I think everyone pretty much knows that dog fighting is in the history of the breed so I'm not sure why there's so much discussion about fighting that occured in the past. There must be something else left to learn about this breed that doesn't involve dog fighting, right?

DryCreek

11-09-2006, 02:15 PM

I thought a few of you might enjoy some pictures of these wonderful animals from the past.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/J.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/EarlDick.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/CHBillySunday8xwGeorgeArmitage1900s.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/1730workingbulldogs.jpg

The last piece of art is circa 1730

The APBT was originally a working man's dog. It was not until fairly recently that they became an expensive fashion accessory for people with more money than brains. While the rich or well to do had their hunting animals and lap dogs, your blue collar workers created a breed for themselves. As hardy and as solid as the men themselves, the APBT was appreciated for showing all the qualities that men of the day appreciated in each other. These dogs helped put food on the table with their incredible physical endurance and superior hunting abilities. Their tenacity was unmatched by any other breed. Used for both bull and bear baiting (meaning they tired out the animal so it could be slaughtered) these dogs had to be fearless, capable, yet extremely stable around people so as to avoid any accidents during the removal of the dogs from their prey.

Enjoy the pics

jess2416

11-09-2006, 02:24 PM

Thanks :) for the pics....

Amstaffer

11-09-2006, 04:14 PM

I think we are all willing to embrace Knowledge that will improve the breed or make us better dog owners.

jess2416

11-09-2006, 04:19 PM

I agree. This is actually why I avoid most pitbull threads asking for info. Its always turned into a 20 page debate with the good info lost in the turmoil.

You are soooo right.....and it gets pretty frustrating

Amstaffer

11-09-2006, 04:26 PM

Point is the topic has been beaten down with a huge stick over and over again. WHY? Is there a need to debate on the breeds past or present at all times? So rarely have I seen a pit thread that didn't turn into a debate :rolleyes: . My brother has a beautiful pitbull and im against the fighting and all of that.

Its such a old and boring droning on and on thing. Points that have been made in previous threads over and over do not need to be made once more.

Why...maybe we are like our dogs and just won't quit... :p :p (Attempt to inject humor)

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 04:59 PM

Ok, I want to ask this question. I was going to ask at game dog but I'm a coward! I personaly am interested in the fighting end because of something I seen. I'll admit it, I know nothing about this breed except for what I've been learning here. But a few months ago I was living in a city, pitbulls were popular. A new neighbor moved in with 3 of his own. 2 were kept inside in cages then brought out at night and put on chains. 1 was kept out on a large chain in the yard.

No doubt the guy was bad news, the question became was he fighting his dogs. Was he training them for fights. He bragged that he pitied anyone or any dog that came into his yard. The dog outside was fed regular, always had water, was actually a big baby. It would look at the door and whine when he wanted in, he even had toys outside to play with. Then I noticed the company this guy keeps. Most had pitbulls, these people would stand in the yard petting his dog, the dog showed no aggression to their dogs. I watched him one day with the two inside, he was good to them. Yet everything about him screamed bad news.

The neighbors turned him in for having fighting dogs. My greatest fear was what would I do if his dog broke free while we were outside, what would I do. Well one night one of the dogs did break free and went after the neighbors labs (thankfully they were in a fenced in area of the yard). She called the cops, animal control came. It was quite a scene. This happened within a half hour of our returning from our walk. I moved away shortly after that.

Now I wonder about this guy and his dogs. Did we all push the panic button, assume the worst of him just because of his dogs? How does one know the difference between someone training their dogs for fights and one training them for hunting or just plain keeping them well exercised? My husband is possibly transfering, we will be in a large city again so we're bound to see things like this again. I dont want to be one of those neighbors assuming the worst of someone. If I have neighbors concerned about someone with APBT's I want to be able to help educate them. I want to help protect the innocent families who simply love the breed or have several for hunting reasons.

I'd also like to know if there is anyway to protect my dog should we come acrossed one running freely. Had we been out just a half hour later that night, we would have been in a bad situation. I wouldnt have known what to do except scream and cry.

Renee750il

11-09-2006, 05:29 PM

THANK YOU, ChowChow! THIS is what educating is all about! :D

DryCreek

11-09-2006, 06:06 PM

It's pretty much impossible to tell what someone is training their dog for. Whether it's for show, hunting, health or fighting, the work out would be the same. It's entirely possible that you guessed wrong on your neighbor.

His bragging did not help his situation any though. We all realize that APBT's can be extremely focused when it comes to other dogs so why did he have to mouth off about it. Just made himself look bad.

Loose dogs are a concern. If your dog is attacked by a loose dog, do NOT put yourself in the middle. I know it sounds horrible but how will you be able to help your dog if you are damaged as well? Stay calm, try to get help from someone near. All responsible owners of the APBT carry what is called a breaking or a parting stick. Here is some info on them....

http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Hope some of this helped:)

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 06:56 PM

I was afraid you'd tell me that.
This guy claimed the two inside were "registered fighting dogs" and should never have any human contact. But the guy was very loud, had parties often and the more trashed he was, the more he would run off at the mouth to people. No matter what, the dogs were in the wrong hands with him. Now the things I say he said came from my neighbor, she talked to him. I never spoke to him.

Tell me this.....if a person is training their dogs for fighting, would they take their dogs on walks where other people may be out with their dogs or do they take them out in the country somewhere so they can run them? I honestly dont think anymore this guy was fighting his dogs. If he was planning on it, he was one of those wanna be a dog fighter punk. I never seen him take his dogs anywhere. Never walked them. Just seems to me like his saying the dogs must never have human contact would be more in lines of trying to make these dogs aggressive towards people. Trying to create the perfect guard dog.
Thanks for taking time to talk to me about this. It's bugged me since I seen this stuff. Just reading some of the stuff that's been said in the last thread shed some light for me, and it wouldnt have happened if it hadnt been for lil bit! Thank you lil bit!

Amstaffer

11-09-2006, 07:11 PM

I agree this is a good question.

This guy doesn't sound like an old school dog fighter but he still sounded like a bad man and having the police investigate him didn't hurt IMHO

LuvinBullies

11-09-2006, 07:24 PM

This guy claimed the two inside were "registered fighting dogs" and should never have any human contact.

My apologies to the group for saying I would not post anymore on this thread, and now I am being a flake and going back on my word.
But, seeing as littlechowchow has very valid questions and has presented a good case in point for us to analyze- I will eat my hat and answer to the best of my ability.

The guy you are speaking of is a disgrace as an owner of the APBT-especially if he truly did tell you he had "registered fighting dogs which should never have human contact." Puke. He sounds like a wanna be punk dog fighter and a perfect example of who should never own a bulldog.
His ownership of "fighting dogs" cannot be validated, and neither can his statement that they "can never have human contact". The true dogmen (I am not glorifying anyone here- just in case anyone had their trigger finger on the flame button) who historically matched their dogs never isolated their dogs from human contact in an effort to make them better "fighters". Human contact was a must in APBT heritage- seeing as how referees these dogs did not know had to be able to be right there beside the dogs in matches. Anyone who brags about owning "fighting dogs" to his neighbors all the while maintaining an unruly household is a scum bag. Perhaps he kept his dogs fed well, etc. etc., but he is certainly not worthy of owning a bulldog. I hope his dogs fared out okay, but I suspect the worst because of this guy's irresponsible behavior :(.

Jules

11-09-2006, 07:55 PM

Okay... you will probably be rolling your eyes at me, but I also have a question.

I have a question to the "gameness" of the APBT. I remember how important gameness was to most of you guys and that dogs that would not fit into the breed standard (I give that also missing "game") would be culled.

How do you test for gameness in your dogs? And how do you so early which puppy has "game" and which not? Compared to how they were tested in earlier years?

Bahamutt99

11-09-2006, 07:56 PM

It sounds like your neighbor was a punk wanabe. Most people that are still involved in that area aren't going to be spouting off and telling people that they fight dogs, since its a felony in almost every state. Plus, they aren't going to want to put their dogs in any more risk than they are already. Animal control doesn't even have to prove a person guilty in order to kill their dogs. I don't know if you heard about the big bust in Louisiana (I think) involving Floyd Boudreaux, who's been in the breed for decades. Well, the short version is, his case hasn't even gone to trial and his dogs were all dead within a very short span of them being seized.

Having human contact has nothing to do with fighting another dog. On the contrary, you wouldn't want a dog that would turn on a person in the heat of battle because you could end up in a situation where the other dog's handler is handling your dog. (When one dog would make a "turn" by swinging its head and shoulders away from his opponent, the handlers would grab both dogs up as soon as they were free of holds -- ie, not gripped onto each other.) If the dog was a man-eater, who in their right mind would get in the pit with them? Not to say that this didn't happen, but it wasn't very common.

Bahamutt99

11-09-2006, 08:04 PM

How do you test for gameness in your dogs? And how do you so early which puppy has "game" and which not? Compared to how they were tested in earlier years?

I don't think you can gague gameness in a puppy. You can gague drive, but testing gameness involves getting the dog in a position where they're frustrated and hard-pressed to continue. And you don't want to do that to a puppy, because you can ruin him. In the old days -- at least from what my reading tells me -- most dogs would be put through their game test no earlier than 18 months.

As to how to legally test for it, opinions vary. I feel like there are ways to "kind of" see the gameness in a dog -- like weight pull and hog hunting. For example, when you see a dog that's struggling to move a load, and doesn't stop struggling until the handler calls off the pull, that, IMO, shows a measure of gameness. Sports don't test the true depths of what the dog has, but they're about as close as you're going to get if you stay on the right side of the law. Additionally, they have use in modern day society.

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 08:34 PM

Thank you for your replies. It was so sad, one of his "registered fighting dogs" was a pup. So adorable, it broke my heart to see that puppy in his care. To think if he was being honest and he keeps these two dogs in cages all day allowing them no human contact.....just very sad to even think about it.
I dont know what the outcome actually was. I think he lost the dogs the night the one broke free, which is sad in itself because they'd be put to sleep. The whole thing just bugs me.

otch1

11-09-2006, 09:23 PM

Hello mylittlechow... this is a popular subject this week!! The owner was a "wanna-be". There is no such thing as registering a dog to fight in the U.S. It is illegal. If he had fought them, you'd see signs of it. Even Pitts successful in these activities have scaring around the head, eyes and muzzle. Had he fought them, there would be no friendly visiting with his buddies dogs in the same yard. Once this behaviors developed, there is no selective process for the dog in playing with one and fighting another. While I'm not sure what to say about a neighbor possibly making up the fact that they were being fought, they probably were saved from a very poor quality of life!

MyLittleChowChow

11-09-2006, 10:51 PM

I never got close enough to his dogs to know if they had scars. The night I watched him bring the pup and the older dog out the pup was off leash, very close to each other. This dog totally ignored the one always chained outside and showed no problem with the pup.

I know this topic is a touchy one and had I not seen this stuff I wouldnt have pressed the topic like I have.

I really have learned alot. While living at this place, one night I was at a neighbors having a beer with her and a group of her friends. One girl had a young pitbull, she had gotten him from a rescue. She said she has to put him on a chain now when he's outside because he gets to mean or rough around her other dogs. We decided to let my dog and her dog meet each other. It went well but there was something different about her's. Although she was trying to do all the right things socializing him, he just seemed like he was on guard, like at any min he could snap with my dog. We cut their visit short. Well now I know we werent so smart that night.

Where I live, you just dont see many (if any) pitbulls. Oh you hear all about them. Everyone knows someone who has one and everyone here in this town will tell you they are dangerous dogs to have (right along with chows). So being in a area where pitbulls are so popular, I had no clue what to think. I'd take my dog on a bike trail, see someone coming onto the bike trail with a pitbull, look at us and turn around and leave. SHocked me every time. I'd be thinking ok, obviously that person has a very aggressive dog, bet it's being used for dog fighting, or they are scared of my dog! I'm sorry, but I was so very guilty of this way of thinking! Now I believe these people were simply being responsible. They avoided having any problems with our dogs meeting. They didnt know what my Chows temperment was, they didnt know if my dog would growl, bark, or make their dog feel threatened, and they knew they had a breed that wouldnt take any crap. That's how I see it now.

Well I didnt mean to upset anyone by my asking about the dog fighting, hopefully I didnt. I'm pretty satisfied with your responses so I'll let the topic die. We can move on to other things now. :)

Kurby

11-09-2006, 10:58 PM

amstaffer I think you completely missed the point of my post.. oh well. lets moved on

Thank you for your replies. It was so sad, one of his "registered fighting dogs" was a pup. So adorable, it broke my heart to see that puppy in his care. To think if he was being honest and he keeps these two dogs in cages all day allowing them no human contact.....just very sad to even think about it.
I dont know what the outcome actually was. I think he lost the dogs the night the one broke free, which is sad in itself because they'd be put to sleep. The whole thing just bugs me.

just reading your story bugs me mylittle.. I think there should be a law that some people should never be allowed to have dogs ever. They dont deserve to be treated that way. Nobody does.

DRYCREEK - those are some nice pictures. Thanks for sharing them.

I have a question... when did this "lines" came out (chinaman, RE, Gator etc etc)? Why do they have to have lines? when they can all do the same thing and look the same (Im assuming).

GHOST

11-09-2006, 11:50 PM

HUMMMM , it looks as he was just running off at the mouth,,, a wanna be,, he most likely told ya'll that so noone would come around when the dogs was out,,, sounds like he might have been dealing in some illegal substances and put the dogs out at night to alert of any police or persons coming,,, sounds like it but who knows,,, if the dogs were pitted you'd be able to tell even at a distance,,, but if on jumps on you and your dog,,, don't panic ,, first off find a stick about big around as a quarter and step over the back of the dog and stick the stick into the pits jaws and pry them open,,, with you stratling the dog he can't jump up and bite you,,,and hold on to him,,,unless you want to run and get help but your dog might not have time for that,,most all pit bulls have some sort of dog aggression but shouldn't have ppl agression,,, sounds to me he was just putting the dogs out at night to alert if someone came around but at least he warned you about them,,,with him warning you thats what it sounded like to me

MyLittleChowChow

11-10-2006, 12:14 AM

So when you use these bully sticks, do the dogs calm right down or fight agaisnt you trying to get away from it?
I think your right Ghost about this guy doing some illegal substances. I honestly think he was dealing. It was odd because people were always going there, but in the daytime they would mostly run inside for a few mins then leave. When he'd have his parties the dogs were tied on each side of a sidewalk leading up to the house. Well he was for sure bad news. Sad the dogs had to be in his care.

LuvinBullies

11-10-2006, 01:35 AM

I have a question... when did this "lines" came out (chinaman, RE, Gator etc etc)? Why do they have to have lines? when they can all do the same thing and look the same (Im assuming).

The APBT historic "Lines" have been what sets the true American Pit Bull Terrier's stable temperament, able bodied, game heart qualities apart from the modern larger "pit bulls" which were mixed and matched for size, bulk and color.

This is an example of a pit bull dog out of Watchdog/Razor's Edge bloodlines- bred for large size

http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/images/12_cc5955_14_lg.jpg
http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/females/rage.html

This is Chinaman
http://www.gamedog.info/photos/Chinaman.jpg
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/chinamanPed.html

This is another Razor's Edge, Greyline, Gotti product- bred for large out of standard size and color- The infamous "blue pit bull" of today- more recently referred to as "bully breeds" because of pedigree questions in registering these dogs. I am not insinuating this dog or kennel has indiscretions with their pedigrees, I do not know. It was Razor's Edge who started the split and made their own registery when questions about pedigree authenticity broke out. (As far as I know- someone else here may know more about that than I do.)

http://www.arrogantpitkennel.homestead.com/Resize_of_sanch2.jpg
http://www.arrogantpitkennel.homestead.com/untitled2.html
http://www.arrogantpitkennel.homestead.com/Pedigree_Sancho.htm

THIS is GR CH Mayday, a true gamebred APBT

http://www.gamedog.info/photos/Mayday.jpg
http://www.gamedog.info/photos/
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=560

Fanciers of "bully breeds" and APBT enthusiasts often debate about Razor's Edge, Greyline, etc., and many APBT owners/breeders feel these lines are corrupting the original APBT bloodlines. There is becoming more and more of a distinguished split between the stockier, big headed "bully breeds" and APBT bloodlines.

Zoom

11-10-2006, 02:04 AM

Now that I know what I'm looking at, Chinaman is an awesome looking dog, man-eater though he may have been.

What are the accepted APBT colors, since it sounds like "blue" isn't one of them?

LuvinBullies

11-10-2006, 03:34 AM

Now that I know what I'm looking at, Chinaman is an awesome looking dog, man-eater though he may have been.

What are the accepted APBT colors, since it sounds like "blue" isn't one of them?

Actually, just about all colors are accepted, including blue. The problem with most blues is they are bred exclusively for color and larger out of standard size. This eventually dilutes everything the APBT was bred to be if you stray too far from original bloodlines and focus only on outward appearances. The APBT was perfected (as far as enthusiasts are concerned ;)) as a healthy, awesomely athletic, strong willed dog with an outstanding temperament (albeit the DA of course)- so when breeders began experimenting with color and size, attention to historic APBT detail was lost, and a lot of traditional APBT traits were compromised.

Look at some colors currently recognized as standard here-

http://www.apbtconformation.com/colors.htm

Read some of the buzz on the merle pattern here:

The APBT standard and the recent emergence of the Merle pattern in the breed.

By Scot E. Dowd Ph.D.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/merle.htm

Here are a couple other colors of registered pit bulls (These were just shown to me recently)- I don’t know what the buzz is on accepting them or if they are currently accepted as standard

Blue tick: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.co...p?dog_id=102772 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=102772)

Red tick: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.co...hp?dog_id=95241 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=95241)

blk & tan saddleback: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.co...p?dog_id=100928 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=100928)

DryCreek

11-10-2006, 04:13 AM

Here is another pic of Chinaman.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/CHCHINAMAN.jpg

He was not a man eater, the only time he was said to have bitten is when being held across from another dog, basically telling his handler LET ME GO, I WANT HIM. His last owner never had a problem with him and human aggression of any sort. Thought it was a load of hogwash. Unfortunately, rumors and the internet have a way of exploding facts into incredible stories.

APBT bloodlines are based on certain animals i.e. Chinaman, Jeep, Red Boy or on breeders i.e. Carver, Mayfield, Colby etc. Some lines tend to throw certain traits like good air (excellent trait for treadmill races), hard mouths (excellent trait for hang time events), style and looks etc. People tend to favor certain bloodlines believing them to be the best, as I imagine breeders of other breeds do as well.

Then there are the lines that don't follow the standard as in Gotti, Razor's Edge etc. These are usually looked down upon by true APBT enthusiasts as the dogs look about as capable of having a heart attack as they are of doing the kibbles and bits commercial, not true to form, not athletic, poorly bred with multiple health issues. Then there are the BYB's who will tell you this is a Gator bred pit...Though there are lines that have a dog named Alligator in them, the term Gator is usually used to just sell dogs.

Here is a pic of Limey Kennels Ch Alligator....a true to form APBT

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/limey_kennels_ch_alligator.jpg

Here is the ADBA standard for an APBT

http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=21&pg=21

Here is the color chart

http://www.adbadog.com/p_gallary.asp?aid=5

When you use parting sticks, you must keep the stick in the dogs mouth as you remove them from the situation. They don't fight the stick per say, they WILL fight to try to get back at the other dog. As soon as they cannot reach each other you can remove the parting stick and scoop the dog up in your arms and walk away. This in itself is the main reason these dogs were bred for non HA.

When I worked at the SPCA, a friend and co-worker put herself into the middle of a fight between a group of questionably bred sled dogs trying to separate them with her bare hands. Not a good idea, she suffered greatly for it with multiple bite wounds. A bred to standard APBT would not have touched her, even in the excitement mode of fighting. I've had to separate APBT's myself, while I was alone, with no parting sticks. Not quite as easy but still doable as long as you stay calm and watch. They will eventually let go to try to get another hold and thats when you separate them. To try to pull them apart in hold will cause much greater damage to your dog. I never had any doubt that I was safe from the dogs though I knew they were not safe for each other.

I hope some of this helped....:)

Bahamutt99

11-10-2006, 07:26 AM

Although she was trying to do all the right things socializing him, he just seemed like he was on guard, like at any min he could snap with my dog. We cut their visit short. Well now I know we werent so smart that night.

...

I had no clue what to think. I'd take my dog on a bike trail, see someone coming onto the bike trail with a pitbull, look at us and turn around and leave. SHocked me every time.

Just wanted to address these two points. On the first, if you're uncomfortable with the situation, don't think twice about leaving it. Pit Bulls can be very subtle with their cues when they're getting ready to do something, and it takes an observant owner to know when that point is coming. If you explain nicely why you are removing your dog, the Pit Bull owner should understand. True, many will not, but the smart ones will get what you're saying. Its your dog, and if you feel like the situation is too risky, don't do it.

As for avoiding other dogs, this is something a lot of us do just as a precautionary measure. I am very leary of other dog owners, unless I can sense that they've got a good handle on the situation. If I see an off-lead dog coming into the park, I will keep my distance. (The last time I actually called the police as I was leaving because I'm fed up with being chased out of the park by irresponsible dog owners.) Sometimes its just better to be safe and keep your distance, rather than take the chance that maybe this is the day that your dog decides to do something "cute." :rolleyes:

Bahamutt99

11-10-2006, 07:31 AM

So when you use these bully sticks, do the dogs calm right down or fight agaisnt you trying to get away from it?

Do you mean breaking sticks? Bully sticks are chews. :)

I had the chance to see a breaking stick in action recently. The dogs do not break off willingly. That is why part of the method is keeping the stick in the dog's mouth as you pull them back. This is so they cannot re-grip and start fighting again. Once they're really engaged with an opponent, they are there to see the job through.

Bahamutt99

11-10-2006, 07:34 AM

Sorry for the triple post. :)

On Chinaman, I've heard different things. Some say he's an excite biter, like DryCreek explained. I've also heard that he came to the guy that bought him full of worms and very sick. And the guy was trying to get him out of the crate, was handling him roughly, so Chinaman bit him. I don't know which is correct.

Amstaffer

11-10-2006, 08:23 AM

amstaffer I think you completely missed the point of my post.. oh well. lets moved on ).
I hope I did misunderstand you.

I think there should be a law that some people should never be allowed to have dogs ever. They dont deserve to be treated that way. Nobody does.
I get your point here and I agree 100%!

Amstaffer

11-10-2006, 08:39 AM

I have a perhaps silly question on breaking dogs up..... Way back when I had Rotties I went to a Guard dog demostration. It was put on by a "training school" I was young and thought I wanted to get my dogs protection trained (something I have zero interest now) any way to make a long story short....

I overheard two men talking in the stands about pit bulls. One man was telling the other that if a Pit Bull got a hold of another dog and won't let go and you don't have any sticks you can.... Stick your finger in the dogs Butt :yikes: and it will release and turn to bite you. He said it is dangerous but if you wish to save the victim it will work everytime.

Now I have no idea if the guy knew what he was talking about because he was just watching like me. Is this complete BS or have you ever heard of such a thing.

For Sal and Athena a good 'HEY!" usually works (drop stuff, they have never bitten a dog) so I have never needed to try it. I would however do it to save my dogs life or the life of another dog. I know Sal and Athena don't like getting their temp taken but they never get aggressive, but of course the instrument is much smaller :o and the Vet is very gentle.

DanL

11-10-2006, 09:15 AM

J's crew

11-10-2006, 09:20 AM

chinchow

11-10-2006, 10:37 AM

You might want to read up on the history of your chow then (and what "chow" actually means), and find out what it was used for. Uglier than the APBT in my opinion.

I know the history of my breeds, very well actually. Thank you. :)
And, there is no proof of what Chow-Chow actually means, either. And that has been an issue for a very long time. But this isn't a Chow thread.
:rolleyes:

I've seen breaking sticks used before as well, and I've seen them save a dogs life. They aren't a bad thing to have around, and not just for the APBT breed either. The first dog I saw one used on was a Labrador.

MyLittleChowChow

11-10-2006, 10:41 AM

Bahamutt, I sure understand that stuff now. I am so use to seeing people cross the street to avoid us on our walks because I have a Chow, when I was in this city I was just shocked at the time that someone with a pitbull would actually refuse to bring their dog on the bike trail because of us! I wish I had known this stuff before I lived there. Where I am now, pleasantville usa :) you just dont see pitbulls. I certainly understand now why they might have avoided us. My dog never reacts poorly to other dogs (at least she never has yet). She will either sit or stand still as she watches them pass by or she'll totally ignore them and keep walking. But the people who avoided us wouldnt know this. I'd rather be avoided than have someone come up to us with a growling, barking lab with the owner trying to force the dogs to meet all the while saying "oh he's a friendly dog". I've had this happen to us.Alot of stupid people with dogs out there.

Zoom

11-10-2006, 03:12 PM

Actually, just about all colors are accepted, including blue.

Great links! I ask because there is one dog, APBT or pit mix I can't tell, that comes into my work for boarding/daycare...but he's a blue brindle and looks quite similar to the "traditional" APBT's...this dog is also about as cold as they come and loves to spend his time climbing into my lap to cuddle. But I always have an eye on him and do not even give him the chance to think about getting into trouble...I don't think he would start anything, but I know other dogs that would and I would just rather avoid that situation all together.

LuvinBullies

11-10-2006, 05:10 PM

I've seen breaking sticks used before as well, and I've seen them save a dogs life. They aren't a bad thing to have around, and not just for the APBT breed either. The first dog I saw one used on was a Labrador.

Boy do I wish you had spoken those words on prime time TV, news radio, talk radio and CNN. I wish every dog owner did have a parting stick handy and know how to use it. Then maybe we could scratch it off the police and media's list of "dog fighting paraphernalia".

tommyt

11-10-2006, 05:16 PM

Boy do I wish you had spoken those words on prime time TV, news radio, talk radio and CNN. I wish every dog owner did have a parting stick handy and know how to use it. Then maybe we could scratch it off the police and media's list of "dog fighting paraphernalia".

Isn't that right. I saw a news clip the other day where they showed a break stick at a "dog fighter's" house. They described a break stick as a "wooden dagger used to torment the dog's into fighting." Where do they get this crap?

Miakoda

11-10-2006, 10:24 PM

I must say that this thread is going much better than the last.:p

And I just want to address someone previous question as to what "lines" were like Bolio, Chinaman, Jeep, etc. These are just bloodlines of dogs that were great examples of the breed & proved themselves by producing great examples of the breed. It's the same concept like in all the other breeds. Although I openly admit I don't know much about bloodlines in other breeds, I do know that our OEB comes from Leavitt lines, but I wouldn't have a clue about my Rottweiler unless I pulled her ped & did a ton of research.

Dogs can either be bred tight, meaning they are linebred or inbred to obtain & retain certain desirable traits, & that dog can be said to be of the Bolio bloodline (for example). Or they can be scatterbred where there are many different dogs and bloodlines that went into the making of that particular dog therefore that dog doesn't have a particular bloodline.

Does that help any?

(If I knew about specific bloodlines in other breeds, I would gladly use them for comparison, but alas, I'm an APBT junkie & my other dogs, save the Rottie & Dogo--but I wasn't given any ped info when the owner relinquished ownership to me--are all mutts with unknown backgrounds.)

As for the "finger in the poop shoot" theory, well, I'm never going to try that one thank you. :D I don't believe I get paid enough at work when I have to do that to express anal glands on dogs with serious gland problems/empactments. But at least I have the chance to glove up then!

And as for waiting for the dog to turn & bite me, well, that would be one dead doggie. I did PTS one of my dogs (a dog I had newly acquired) after he went on a barking ramapge in the backyard when I was giving everyone water & I playfully swatted at his butt telling him to hush & he planted his canines in my thigh. He was put down before I even made it to the doctor's office.

I've broken up many a fights before & the only injury I've sustained is a deep bite to the index finger when I stupidly stuck my hand in between the two mouths & that was my own **** fault. I've never had a dog turn to try & redirect onto me before.

tempura tantrum

11-10-2006, 10:42 PM

And I just want to address someone previous question as to what "lines" were like Bolio, Chinaman, Jeep, etc. These are just bloodlines of dogs that were great examples of the breed & proved themselves by producing great examples of the breed.

Great explanation! These dogs put their "stamp" on the breed. If this kind of stuff interests people a LOT a GREAT book that goes into many examples of "prepotent" sires/ lines is Pat Trotter's "Born to Win."

In Shibas we have a few prepotent sires- dogs whose impact on the breed are expecitional- they improve on every bitch brought to them, and seem to find a niche with girls from diverse lines.

A great old example is "RC"- you know an RC kid/grandkid/great grandkid etc. just by looking at their heads. Even people new to the breed can begin to easily pick dogs that were tightly linebred on RC lines.

A more recent example is "Taro" (currently the top-producing Shiba stud of all time, and a dog I brag about WAY too much). Simply put, ALL of his puppies are dead ringers for him. Their temperaments are very similar too. Doesn't matter who the bitch is- the puppies look like HIM.

(I'm certainly not trying to downplay great bitches with this- it's just that it's generally a lot easier to pick out a prepotent sire as opposed to a prepotent bitch because frankly, the boys are producing more puppies). But just to give the ladies their due- a bitch who really put her stamp on the breed was "Willow" who is currently the only registry of merit dam to produce three daughters that ALSO became registry of merit dams. My Tai is very much a Willow grandkid- you can tell by his headpiece.

Sorry to take this on a tangent- I just find the research of prepotent bloodlines fascinating, and I'm enjoying looking at some of these stellar examples.

Miakoda- if you have more pictures of some of these guys "kids" I'd love to see them. It's really interesting to get a feel for what different lines bring to a single breed, especially when it's a breed I have no real experience with.

Brattina88

11-11-2006, 09:47 AM

I was hoping for some pics! I'm a very visual learner, and I very much appriciate it. I wanted to ask about the size differences.... I have heard from many that the apbt is not supposed to be a huge dog, BUT many breeders breed for huge sizes :confused: Some of the pit bulls that I've seen are so big and proportioned differently that I would think they are American Bulldogs way before pit bull would cross my mind.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/EarlDick.gif
I'm in love with that dog ^^ LOL
I agree. This is actually why I avoid most pitbull threads asking for info. Its always turned into a 20 page debate with the good info lost in the turmoil.
ditto! but this one is going well now :D

DryCreek

11-11-2006, 10:32 AM

Theres nothing I hate more than seeing a kennels website advertising huge heads, massive chests,and the dogs weigh 80 to 120 pounds or more. These are NOT true to form APBT's.

My personal experience with the breed has been on average from 25 to 45 pounds. The largest male I ever saw personally was 54 pounds. Some do come larger on occasion but it is not the average.

I too love that pic, that dog is absolutely beautiful. It is a pic of E. Tudor and his dog Dick I believe.

Here a few more old dog pics for ya.....

Colby's Dime

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/colbys_dime.jpg

Ferguson's Centipede

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/furguesons_centipede.jpg

Klaus' Zeke

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/klaus-chzeke.jpg

and Fly of Panama

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/flyofpanama.gif

All well known dogs from the past....

Renee750il

11-11-2006, 01:01 PM

This is great! And I've got to say, Mayday is one drop-dead GORGEOUS critter . . .

And believe it or not, the info on the lines and linebreeding is very helpful to me, looking ahead at my Filas.

2nd2none

11-12-2006, 09:10 PM

here are some links you guys might enjoy looking at:
http://www.amstaffs.net/historical.htm
http://www.hexedsince1975.com/VintageDogs.html
http://www.strongerthanall.net/oldschool.html
also a good read:
REQUIEM FOR A BREED
by William Stewart
(Inspired by a story by T. Michael Riddle)

Back

They tell me I was the last of my kind, an American Pit Bull Terrier, and I admit I wore the name with pride, but never arrogance. Oh, I could fight, and fight well, if the situation called for it, but I would get along with other animals that didn't challenge me or weren't foolish enough to question my courage. I loved all humans, unless they gave me reason not to by endangering my family or abusing our property. Then I would fight to the death for my family.
My master trained me from a pup to obey him but these things I knew by instinct. These things he said I inherited from hundreds of generations of good dogs, some bred for the pit, some for hunting and some just for companions for our masters-but good, brave bulldogs, one and all.
Now, as I drift here between realities waiting, I'm told, for my final dispensation from the Creator, I wonder where we went wrong. Did we bulldogs not try hard enough? Were we not brave enough, not loyal enough? Did we not defend our homes, our masters and their families and possessions with our very lives? Did we not love our human masters with every fiber of our beings. Perhaps then, we did not show our love and devotion strongly enough, nor convincingly enough that our kind should be permitted to exist?
Mistakes were made, that is true. Some of my kind hurt humans but only because they were made to hate and attack them by foolish and overbearing masters. Some of us were allowed to roam freely and get into trouble, as any dog would. But were we to blame? Did we deserve extinction?
There were of course, the news reports. For a long time it seemed that we bulldogs were the only dogs that ever bit anyone. Did all the other breeds suddenly stop biting humans for some reason; perhaps to make us bulldogs look bad? If not, why then was it only bites by our kind that were reported, and why were we blamed when the breeding of the offender wasn't even known?
Besides, haven't dogs always occasionally bitten humans? Why were we singled out? Was it because we were courageous fighters, the best the world had ever seen in combat? We thought that courage and tenacity and bravery were traits humans admired. Don't they worship their sports heroes and honor their war heroes?
Where then did we go wrong? Could we have done something differently that all our masters might have fought harder-as mine did in the end-to keep us from being outlawed, hunted down and executed? I have so many questions!
Some said it was the "animal rights" and "humane" type humans. They wanted all animals to have a safe, cozy and "happy" life. That may be okay for their Poodles and Pekinese lapdogs but bulldogs aren't interested in getting old and fat and dying in their comfortable beds-bulldogs need more. They didn't seem to understand that we didn't mind a little discomfort-what they would call cruelty-if that was what we had to endure to get to do what we loved, whether it was hunting or fighting or protecting our masters.
If those humans are really for "animal rights" as they claim, shouldn't it be our right to choose how we live-and die? Like any dog can, we could refuse to do a job we didn't like. We could have quit and curled up in a ball or pissed and hollered like a street cur being chased away by kids throwing stones, but that was not our way!
We loved what we did! Discomfort, pain, hardship-they were nothing to us-couldn't they understand-we were bulldogs! Couldn't they see that, in our joy for the hunt, in our love of combat? Wherein was the cruelty if we loved our sports? Could they not understand that we truly needed a challenge to be happy? And how could a real bulldog be happier than when he was locked in combat with a worthy opponent?
the rest:
http://www.pbreporter.com/requiem.htm

2nd2none

11-12-2006, 09:16 PM

also, I must say that this thread is SOOOOOO much nicer to read,
as opposed to "the last one". doesn't (thankfully) seem to be as "heated".

here is a link that MANY of us, as owners of this breed posted in, to help the CA fight against BSL last year.
http://www.sorryagain.com/index.htm

2nd2none

11-12-2006, 10:10 PM

Please provide your proof that the dogs raised by the dogmen of history were Tortured, Abused and Neglected Also, please provide proof that they were genetically exploited and mentally tortured.

I cannot prove that these things were done, or not done, as I was not there to witness it.

Chinaman had transference aggression, not human aggression. He only bit when being stopped from doing what he wanted to do, which just happened to be trying to fight another dog.

Whether or not you agree with the history of these dogs, to spread misinformation about it is only feeding into the hype surrounding the breed.

Dog fighting is a very emotional issue, but to allow emotion to overshadow facts is just as wrong as the fighting issue itself.

I was thinking this as well. What LB has stated is very true. A champion is NOT made. It is born. It comes solely from within. It is not pushed, made or trained into the dog. It just "is".
I would like to see how/where thse dogs "were genetically exploited/mentally tortured" as well. Unless one can see this first hand, I wonder about the degree of truthfulness to this statement...:confused:

and

http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/anima...ng_fact_sheet/

http://www.workingpitbull.com/dogfighting.htm
I will plead the 5th as to my opinions regarding these mentioned sites...:rolleyes:

2nd2none

11-12-2006, 10:55 PM

http://www.colbypitbull.com/
if you click into this site, and into photos, Lou has both old and new dogs on there. Monkeey is my friend's dog. Lou, happily attends our MA APBT ADBA show every year, and is a real gentleman. :)
If you go here:
http://www.villaliberty.org/legend.html
you will find info regarding Mr. Maurice Carver. There are also pics of other "dogmen" , as well.
If you go here:

http://www.sorrellspitbulls.com/
you will learn about Bert Sorrells and his line. Has pics, as well.

here is a vid of the infamous Earl Tudor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyxMQtyXQxw&mode=related&search=

just some of the many, but hope you enjoy...

LuvinBullies

11-12-2006, 11:29 PM

I didn't want to go this direction again but don't scoff at my arguments and opinion unless you are willing to here my truth.

This statement is loaded.

Please- anyone is welcome to scoff at my opinions and arguments. My opinions are not necessarily truths. The truth is not necessarily in the eyes of the beholder or in the origin of the orator.
The truth is:
Dogfighting is not being delivered here as a pleasantry.
Torture is defined as the infliction of physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
Exploitation is employing someone or something selfishly or to its greatest possible advantage.

Have dogs been exploited? Oh yes. In many ways other than dogfighting. Thoroughbreds are also exploited, and so are cute children in Quiznos commercials.

Are dogs tortured? Oh yes. By private owners and thuggish ruggish scumbags and pet store owners on occasion.

Were all dogs ever used in historical dogfights exploited AND tortured?
No.
Yes, dogs were fought and some personal gains were enjoyed by the owners and breeders. Were these dogs physically forced into something they did not want to do, or were they simply let out of the starting gate? This is the question you must answer before you make claims of torture.

Do I glorify or support dogfighting? No. Do I respect your views as someone who is upset at the thought of two dogs engaging in combat? Yes. Do I accept the history of the APBT and know there was genuine love for the breed from his creators? Yes.

These are truths. No one ever said dogfighting should be revered. Some of the oldschool harsh practices training horses have gone by the wayside through the years, but we do not look back at the old horsemen and say they were monsters, we appreciate their foundations and love for their breeds- we just tend to employ more humane training tactics these days. We focus on the GOOD of the old horsemen and dogmen, not the BAD.

jess2416

11-12-2006, 11:33 PM

This is the kind of glorification that caused the problem early in the thread. Please keep the thread to knowledge and information that enlighten to the breed not glorify the bad guys.

To me its not glorification, its part of the history regardless of how anyone wants to see it.....

Is the title of this thread not "I'd like to know more about the History of the APBT..

It is history...........whether people like it or not

Renee750il

11-12-2006, 11:44 PM

RE-READ THIS POST:

This statement is loaded.

Please- anyone is welcome to scoff at my opinions and arguments. My opinions are not necessarily truths. The truth is not necessarily in the eyes of the beholder or in the origin of the orator.
The truth is:
Dogfighting is not being delivered here as a pleasantry.
Torture is defined as the infliction of physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
Exploitation is employing someone or something selfishly or to its greatest possible advantage.

Have dogs been exploited? Oh yes. In many ways other than dogfighting. Thoroughbreds are also exploited, and so are cute children in Quiznos commercials.

Are dogs tortured? Oh yes. By private owners and thuggish ruggish scumbags and pet store owners on occasion.

Were all dogs ever used in historical dogfights exploited AND tortured?
No.
Yes, dogs were fought and some personal gains were enjoyed by the owners and breeders. Were these dogs physically forced into something they did not want to do, or were they simply let out of the starting gate? This is the question you must answer before you make claims of torture.

Do I glorify or support dogfighting? No. Do I respect your views as someone who is upset at the thought of two dogs engaging in combat? Yes. Do I accept the history of the APBT and know there was genuine love for the breed from his creators? Yes.

These are truths. No one ever said dogfighting should be revered. Some of the oldschool harsh practices training horses have gone by the wayside through the years, but we do not look back at the old horsemen and say they were monsters, we appreciate their foundations and love for their breeds- we just tend to employ more humane training tactics these days. We focus on the GOOD of the old horsemen and dogmen, not the BAD.

Get it?

Now . . . stop snarling.

There have