I'd Like to Know More About the History of the APBT

[pitbulliest]

Wow you got those off of ebay and at flea markets? lol do they have a pit bull section or something? That's awesome...I'd love to get my hands on something so precious...its a part of history, and a part of our proud breed :)

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Since we're posting old school pics..

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/liz91385/ebay1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/liz91385/201331825DRqvsO_fs.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/liz91385/oldtime.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/liz91385/pitbull.jpg

[Dulce Pit Bull]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m212/liz91385/pit_pull.jpg

[pancho]

Notice in some of those old photos. There are studded harnesses and studded collars, and one with both. For those who think they are just something the blue bullie dogs have invented.
Great photos.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

What do you mean "Blue Bullie" dogs invented? What's a blue bully dog?

[pitbulliest]

These are wonderful
Are there copyright restrictions on any of these photos, as I'd like to post them up on my website if possible.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

I found them on Google/Photo Bucket :D

[pancho]

What do you mean "Blue Bullie" dogs invented? What's a blue bully dog?

A type of dog that some pit bull owners blame for all problems associated with pit bulls.

[2nd2none]

:rolleyes:


Just interjecting here: STAY FAR AWAY FROM DIANE & ALL HER LYING CRAP!

She's one of the biggest hypocrites involved in the breed. Not only does she NOT practice what she preaches (like for example, she's bred litters before & has even had an "oops" litter--NO responsible person EVER has an "oops" litter), but she doesn't even title her dogs herself.....someone else comes in, trains her dogs, works her dogs, competes with her dogs, & she slaps her name on it to get her 15 minutes of fame. I could go on, but this isn't a bash D.J. thread, but just for future reference, don't believe a word that comes out of that idiotic & way too loud mouth.


...couldn't agree more, Mia.
even the mention of that woman's name makes me cringe..
nice post cards, BTW.:)


Dulce Pit Bull: What do you mean "Blue Bullie" dogs invented? What's a blue bully dog?

it's a reference to its color. IMO, it's more like gray, but some term them as blue.

[DryCreek]

A couple more pics for ya....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/Lloyd_Pilot.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/nini65/Earl_BlackJack.jpg

I love those pics Mia & Dulce, some of these dogs were sooooo tiny in the old days. LOL

What a wonderful variety of looks our breed comes in......

[Brattina88]

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/graphic/peteaugust.jpg

how can you not like these dogs? :D

[Renee750il]

'Cause some people are just . . . well, you know . . . . :(

[Zoom]

I love those photos! I adore old pictures to begin with and that does show such a wide range of dogs!

[Miakoda]

I don't guess there would be any copyright violoations as the pics I posted are scanned in photos that I bought & own. I've probably got around 150 photos & old postcards portraying pit bulls of yesterday in a big book in my living room.;)

And to whomever asked, you'd be surprised at what you can find at a flea market. We have a HUGE one near where I live & they always have sections of old photos....it just seems I'm the only one interested in the ones with pit bulls in them. However, just a tip: Many of them have Boston Terriers, aka Boston Bulldogges back then, & they can resemble a pit bull if not looked at carefully enough.....don't be fooled.:cool:

[LuvinBullies]

A type of dog that some pit bull owners blame for all problems associated with pit bulls.

Well that's leaving it a bit open ended-

To blame the dog wouldn't be accurate-the blue/bully himself wasn't at fault...he was created by some breeders who wanted to deviate from the APBT standard and create a bulkier, larger dog with less emphasis on the temperament. Dogs were bred to be big, blue, large heads, etc. and the more one breeds for outward appearance, the more the standard APBT temperament guidelines went by the wayside. The creators of the blue/bully largely contributed to the APBTs problems, but they are not solely responsible. All blues aren't undesireable, but unstable temperaments have been a side effect of the blue/bully fad, as well as health problems due to the overly large size.

Just a little factoid-

The blue fad isn't just restricted to "Pit Bulls". These are Yellow Naped Amazon parrots. Very rarely one is found blue in the wild, humans took notice, and started incorporating them into breeding programs. Like the blue/bully dogs they are considered "rare" and elite in the retail world and have a ridiculously large price tag. The difference here is these birds are not mixed with other types of parrots, they are purely bred, and therefore no health problems have developed--as yet. I still feel when breeding for color only the animal has a higher risk for health problems- simply because they are so rare in the wild for a reason. Most get naturally culled from the genepool because they stand out to predators. Mother Nature knows what she is doing.

http://www.hillcountryaviaries.com/images/Blues.jpg Yellow Nape Amazon Blue Mutation


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Yellow_naped_amazon_parrot_left_side.jpg/200px-Yellow_naped_amazon_parrot_left_side.jpg Natural Yellow Nape Amazon


There are enough breed specific health problems with certain dog breeds (although the standard APBT wasn't notorious for them) as it is without overdoing uncommon naturally occuring genetic traits such as blue color and disproportionately large size.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Istill don't get it, but ok

[pancho]

Well that's leaving it a bit open ended-

To blame the dog wouldn't be accurate-the blue/bully himself wasn't at fault...he was created by some breeders who wanted to deviate from the APBT standard and create a bulkier, larger dog with less emphasis on the temperament. Dogs were bred to be big, blue, large heads, etc. and the more one breeds for outward appearance, the more the standard APBT temperament guidelines went by the wayside. The creators of the blue/bully largely contributed to the APBTs problems, but they are not solely responsible. All blues aren't undesireable, but unstable temperaments have been a side effect of the blue/bully fad, as well as health problems due to the overly large size.

Just a little factoid-

The blue fad isn't just restricted to "Pit Bulls". These are Yellow Naped Amazon parrots. Very rarely one is found blue in the wild, humans took notice, and started incorporating them into breeding programs. Like the blue/bully dogs they are considered "rare" and elite in the retail world and have a ridiculously large price tag. The difference here is these birds are not mixed with other types of parrots, they are purely bred, and therefore no health problems have developed--as yet. I still feel when breeding for color only the animal has a higher risk for health problems- simply because they are so rare in the wild for a reason. Most get naturally culled from the genepool because they stand out to predators. Mother Nature knows what she is doing.

http://www.hillcountryaviaries.com/images/Blues.jpg Yellow Nape Amazon Blue Mutation


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Yellow_naped_amazon_parrot_left_side.jpg/200px-Yellow_naped_amazon_parrot_left_side.jpg Natural Yellow Nape Amazon


There are enough breed specific health problems with certain dog breeds (although the standard APBT wasn't notorious for them) as it is without overdoing uncommon naturally occuring genetic traits such as blue color and disproportionately large size.
Please do not misunderstand me. I do not blame the blue bullies for anything. If you will research the dog attacks you will see the large blue dogs are not responsible for very many attacks. It is just the opposite. Very few pit bulls bred for color are responsible for any attacks.
The blue bullies have not really had anything to do with the problems with pit bulls. Their only problem comes from pit bull breeders. You do not see blue pit bulls running the street nor do you see the pounds filling up with the blue dogs. It is very easy for the game dog breeders to try to blame all the problems with those who breed for color, size, or show potential. For some reason they do not think the pit bull should be bred for anything other than ability and gameness. But then they do not test for gameness and do nothing to show ability. They are really breeding for looks only also. Their idea of what a pit bull should look like is just different. Nothing different as they are choosing their breeding dogs by looks also. It is always better if you can find something or somebody to blame with all of the faults and problems. For the pit bulls it is fashionable to blame the blues. Not much thought, research, or planning is needed. Just some one to blame.

[LuvinBullies]

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not blame the blue bullies for anything. If you will research the dog attacks you will see the large blue dogs are not responsible for very many attacks. It is just the opposite. Very few pit bulls bred for color are responsible for any attacks.
The blue bullies have not really had anything to do with the problems with pit bulls. Their only problem comes from pit bull breeders. You do not see blue pit bulls running the street nor do you see the pounds filling up with the blue dogs. It is very easy for the game dog breeders to try to blame all the problems with those who breed for color, size, or show potential. For some reason they do not think the pit bull should be bred for anything other than ability and gameness. But then they do not test for gameness and do nothing to show ability. They are really breeding for looks only also. Their idea of what a pit bull should look like is just different. Nothing different as they are choosing their breeding dogs by looks also. It is always better if you can find something or somebody to blame with all of the faults and problems. For the pit bulls it is fashionable to blame the blues. Not much thought, research, or planning is needed. Just some one to blame.

Many of the blue/bullys are an end result to intentionally **** -poor breeding, so are the backyard bred/crossbred hybrid "pit bulls" and pit mixes in shelters. All have made the media and crimped the APBTs profile. I think game dog breeders despise each way of breeding equally. The blue mania has made a negative impact, for sure, but it's the total package of (1)the unqualified backyard breeder,(2) the blue mutation breeder,(3) irresponsible and unknowledgeable owners of APBTs as pets, and (4) Erroneous or sensationalized media coverage

Blues are starting to suffer the effects of all of this poor breeding. To quote Miakoda from a discussion we had last night about it,

Blue dogs (especially bullys) are a dime a dozen here in Louisiana (especially Baton Rouge). It would be safe to say that 3 out of every 5 "pit bulls" that our clinic sees is blue or white w/blue.I'm starting to wonder if it's a southern & west coast thing. Reds & whites vie for second place in the color contest down here. Brindles & blacks are not near as common.

Another interesting observation, those that come in with blues tend to have their dogs looking like crap.......& pregnant. And OMG are heartworms the "cool" thing for your dogs to have (sarcasm here.....)

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17686

BTW, Pancho-- why so low on the gamedog breeders? The detest for the blue fad originated from the insult of certain blue breeders and owners claiming to have APBTs when they were so ridiculously substandard. Also, even if gamedog breeders do not test for gameness, they certainly wouldn't allow a substandard dog (regarding temperament) to breed back into the genepool just because it had a ginormous head and a pretty coat. If they did, they weren't TRUE gamedog breeders.

[pancho]

Many of the blue/bullys are an end result to intentionally **** -poor breeding, so are the backyard bred/crossbred hybrid "pit bulls" and pit mixes in shelters. All have made the media and crimped the APBTs profile. I think game dog breeders despise each way of breeding equally. The blue mania has made a negative impact, for sure, but it's the total package of (1)the unqualified backyard breeder,(2) the blue mutation breeder,(3) irresponsible and unknowledgeable owners of APBTs as pets, and (4) Erroneous or sensationalized media coverage

Blues are starting to suffer the effects of all of this poor breeding. To quote Miakoda from a discussion we had last night about it,

Blue dogs (especially bullys) are a dime a dozen here in Louisiana (especially Baton Rouge). It would be safe to say that 3 out of every 5 "pit bulls" that our clinic sees is blue or white w/blue.I'm starting to wonder if it's a southern & west coast thing. Reds & whites vie for second place in the color contest down here. Brindles & blacks are not near as common.

Another interesting observation, those that come in with blues tend to have their dogs looking like crap.......& pregnant. And OMG are heartworms the "cool" thing for your dogs to have (sarcasm here.....)

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17686

BTW, Pancho-- why so low on the gamedog breeders? The detest for the blue fad originated from the insult of certain blue breeders and owners claiming to have APBTs when they were so ridiculously substandard. Also, even if gamedog breeders do not test for gameness, they certainly wouldn't allow a substandard dog (regarding temperament) to breed back into the genepool just because it had a ginormous head and a pretty coat. If they did, they weren't TRUE gamedog breeders.

I am not low on the gamedog breeders. At one time they did a very good job of breeding quality dogs. I know very few nowdays. Just naming a web site gamedog and being a member does not make a person a gamedog breeder. Substandard dogs are used for breeding every day. How can you be a gamedog breeder and breed only gamedogs if you do not game test the dogs? Much like the blue dogs, most game dogs are just a persons opinion on how one should look. The so called gamedog breeders do not breed for a large head, they breed for what they think an athletic dog should look like. Many are not very good judges, they think you can improve the quality of the dog by conditioning.
How do you think the so called gamedog breeders choose their breeding stock if they do not game test? Just about the only way is the looks of a dog. If this is true then they are just the same as those who breed for a certain color and size. They choose by looks only. They just think their opinion is the one that counts.
I think there is room within the breed for all types, color, and size of dogs. If all would take a little time to try to understand the other there would be less problems with the breed. The time for breeding for gameness is past. Not many did it in the past and almost none do it now.
Gameness is not a certain look, a certain color, a certain size, or a certain condition.

[APBT_Danno]

Great thread, despite the bickering which is inevitable when it comes to discussing anything to do with this breed.

I've done a lot of research on the history of the breed, but still appreciate and learn from these discussions.

:hail:

[Amstaffer]

Gameness is not a certain look, a certain color, a certain size, or a certain condition.


I understand the idea of "gameness" but I have an honest question....

What is the difference between a Game dog breeder and Breeder who breeds for Fighting? I know gameness has it place in some sports like weight pulling but from the reading and surfing I have done the two "gameness" and "Dog-fighting" are closely related.

Pancho...could you explain the difference, where one ends and the other begins in the breed process. Can you breed for gameness and not for DA? Can...In your opinion, breed for the gameness of the breed while weeding out DA? Is Prey Drive linked to Gameness? Have you ever known someone to set out on this road...trying to retain gameness but remove the potential for violence in the breed?

Thanks for any info.

[APBT_Danno]

I understand the idea of "gameness" but I have an honest question....

What is the difference between a Game dog breeder and Breeder who breeds for Fighting? I know gameness has it place in some sports like weight pulling but from the reading and surfing I have done the two "gameness" and "Dog-fighting" are closely related.

Pancho...could you explain the difference, where one ends and the other begins in the breed process. Can you breed for gameness and not for DA? Can...In your opinion, breed for the gameness of the breed while weeding out DA? Is Prey Drive linked to Gameness? Have you ever known someone to set out on this road...trying to retain gameness but remove the potential for violence in the breed?

Thanks for any info.

How can you breed it not to be DA? If dog aggression is genetic, it seems that it will always have the chance to be DA.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

You CAN breed aggression out, can't you?

Things were bred in, can't they be bred out?

[APBT_Danno]

You CAN breed aggression out, can't you?

Things were bred in, can't they be bred out?

I'm sure aggression could be bred out in time, just as it was bred in over many, many years. But, it seems that it would take some extreme selective breeding to breed out any and all dog aggression in the breed.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

I think it's worth a shot.

Thanks, Danno.

I think reputable breeders, and breeders who know what they're doing should do that, if they care enough about the breed. I would support that 100%
It's a great idea, if it could be done.

What do you all think?

[tommyt]

I think it's worth a shot.

Thanks, Danno.

I think reputable breeders, and breeders who know what they're doing should do that, if they care enough about the breed. I would support that 100%
It's a great idea, if it could be done.

What do you all think?

If you truly care for the breed, you would preserve it. Not change it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another breed. Why change one to your liking when there are hundreds of other breeds that already suit what you are looking for?

[Renee750il]

If you truly care for the breed, you would preserve it. Not change it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another breed. Why change one to your liking when there are hundreds of other breeds that already suit what you are looking for?

I have to say that I feel the same way when I hear people talking about breeding the Fila "down." If the temperament isn't something you are able or willing to deal with, look at a different breed.

[pitbulliest]

If you truly care for the breed, you would preserve it. Not change it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another breed. Why change one to your liking when there are hundreds of other breeds that already suit what you are looking for?

Dog aggression only came about after a bunch of idiots started breeding the dogs specifically FOR fighting in the pit...this trait wasn't always there in the breed...you know, the breed is older than just "those good ol days" that we know all too well when taking the history of the breed into account.

Why would you change it? Why NOT? What the heck is wrong with a pit bull that doesn't have dog aggression? You breed for the betterment of the breed...THAT, in my opinion, is preservation...keeping around dog aggression just because it was part of the breed at one point or another is selfishness and ignorance in my opinion...that's not what makes the breed..what makes the breed is its stamina, its willingness to please, its physical performance and capabilities, its working drive, etc................not whether or not it can tear apart another animal...

Wake up and smell the century you're living in..where animal aggression equals BSL equals bad press equals pit bulls being hated enough as it is.
ugh... :rolleyes:

[Brattina88]

If you truly care for the breed, you would preserve it. Not change it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another breed. Why change one to your liking when there are hundreds of other breeds that already suit what you are looking for?

:confused: but they weren't even originally bred for DA, right? So why preserve dog aggression? What is its purpose, if dog fighting is illegal? huh? I've seen (IMO) well bred pits that weren't instantly DA... so I don't agree with this statement. If the aggression in the breed doesn't start 'changing' there isn't going to be much of a future with pb's due to bans and such...

-edited out some. since we're all posting at the same time :p-

[pancho]

I understand the idea of "gameness" but I have an honest question....

What is the difference between a Game dog breeder and Breeder who breeds for Fighting? I know gameness has it place in some sports like weight pulling but from the reading and surfing I have done the two "gameness" and "Dog-fighting" are closely related.

Pancho...could you explain the difference, where one ends and the other begins in the breed process. Can you breed for gameness and not for DA? Can...In your opinion, breed for the gameness of the breed while weeding out DA? Is Prey Drive linked to Gameness? Have you ever known someone to set out on this road...trying to retain gameness but remove the potential for violence in the breed?

Thanks for any info.

The difference in a game dog breeder and a breeder who breeds for fighting is very slight if there is any real difference. The one main difference is the breeders of fighting dogs do not call themselves game dog breeders. Those who call themselves game dog breeders are the ones who will breed for other reasons and complain about others doing the same as they are doing.
The only possible way to test the gameness of a pit bull is in the pit. There isn't any other way. That is the problem I have with the so called game dog breeders who do not game test their dogs. You will see many posts where the game dog breeders will complain about others breeding for other reasons but they will state they do not believe in game testing their dogs. How is it possible to breed game dogs if they are not tested?
Take for example the greyhound. Every racer is a greyhound but not every greyhound is a racer. There is a difference in how they are bred. You may call your greyhound a racer and it may have a racer somewhere in its pedigree but it will never be a real racer if it is not raced. You can breed a dog that looks like what you think a racer should look like but if it does not ever set foot on the track it is not considered a racer. Ask any owner of true racers the difference.
Weight pulling does not have a single thing to do with gameness. The best weight pulling dogs are not considered to be pure pits, ask any game dog breeder. The pure pit cannot compete with a real pull dog. That does not make the pull dog a game dog. He can just pull. Many different breeds can be weight pullers. Gameness is not needed and pulling is not a test of gameness.
On DA and gameness. Not all game dogs are DA. DA is not a sign of gameness. There are many breeds that are DA, they are not all game. DA can be controlled. Many game dog breeders do not really want to control DA as they see it as a sign of being game. The dog fighter does not want a dog that will wear its self out acting DA. It is a lot easier to condition and handle a dog where DA can be controlled.
Prey drive is not linked to gameness. Many breeds have prey drive. Any good hunting dog should have prey drive. A hunting cocker spaniel should have prey drive. They are not game.
There is always people who will go to all lenghts to be politically correct about the defination of gameness. Simply stated gameness is the willingness of a dog to die in combat rather than quitting and living. Gameness is a dog that even though it is breathing its last breath continues to believe it is a winner and will never think otherwise.
The pit bull is a great dog. They come in all colors and all sizes. One of the main problems with the breed is the constant arguing between owners of the same breed. The dogs were bred for combat, against another dog. They were not perfected for any other reason. People have found they are very good for many other things. As they breed for these other jobs the pit bull will loose that genetic quality that makes it a combat dog. Already most of them have little left. The dogs today, even those who still are matched, are just a shadow of the dogs of years gone by. Young people who are just now getting interested in the dogs do not have anything to compare them to. Those few people who were around years ago can see the difference in the dogs.
The game dog breeders do not understand what they are supposedly breeding for. Their experience is limited. Their game bred dogs are no different than the ones they like to complain about.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

If you truly care for the breed, you would preserve it. Not change it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another breed. Why change one to your liking when there are hundreds of other breeds that already suit what you are looking for?

Apparently you misunderstoo what I was saying.

Don't EVER tell me I nee to get another breed.

Don't you want thei temperment to be different? THey're being BANNE EVERYWHERE and they are getting such a bad rap, and there are so many homeless pits out there because of these issues.

I just want to see the future of the APBT to be mroe positive.

Why would you WANT to continue to have DA or even HA dogs?

[Dulce Pit Bull]

:confused: but they weren't even originally bred for DA, right? So why preserve dog aggression? What is its purpose, if dog fighting is illegal? huh? I've seen (IMO) well bred pits that weren't instantly DA... so I don't agree with this statement. If the aggression in the breed doesn't start 'changing' there isn't going to be much of a future with pb's due to bans and such...

-edited out some. since we're all posting at the same time :p-

Thank you. Great post

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Dog aggression only came about after a bunch of idiots started breeding the dogs specifically FOR fighting in the pit...this trait wasn't always there in the breed...you know, the breed is older than just "those good ol days" that we know all too well when taking the history of the breed into account.

Why would you change it? Why NOT? What the heck is wrong with a pit bull that doesn't have dog aggression? You breed for the betterment of the breed...THAT, in my opinion, is preservation...keeping around dog aggression just because it was part of the breed at one point or another is selfishness and ignorance in my opinion...that's not what makes the breed..what makes the breed is its stamina, its willingness to please, its physical performance and capabilities, its working drive, etc................not whether or not it can tear apart another animal...

Wake up and smell the century you're living in..where animal aggression equals BSL equals bad press equals pit bulls being hated enough as it is.
ugh... :rolleyes:

THANK YOU! I agree. Very imformative, I really appreciate it :)

[pitbulliest]

There is always people who will go to all lenghts to be politically correct about the defination of gameness. Simply stated gameness is the willingness of a dog to die in combat rather than quitting and living. Gameness is a dog that even though it is breathing its last breath continues to believe it is a winner and will never think otherwise.


Although I agree with your definition... however, dog fighting is illegal, game breeding IS illegal because it does equal dog fighting....

I don't understand why anyone would breed for gameness anymore....well unless of course they are fighting their dogs...it has no purpose in today's day and age...and it does not have to do with breed preservation...

[tommyt]

I am not low on the gamedog breeders. At one time they did a very good job of breeding quality dogs. I know very few nowdays. Just naming a web site gamedog and being a member does not make a person a gamedog breeder. Substandard dogs are used for breeding every day. How can you be a gamedog breeder and breed only gamedogs if you do not game test the dogs? Much like the blue dogs, most game dogs are just a persons opinion on how one should look. The so called gamedog breeders do not breed for a large head, they breed for what they think an athletic dog should look like. Many are not very good judges, they think you can improve the quality of the dog by conditioning.
How do you think the so called gamedog breeders choose their breeding stock if they do not game test? Just about the only way is the looks of a dog. If this is true then they are just the same as those who breed for a certain color and size. They choose by looks only. They just think their opinion is the one that counts.
I think there is room within the breed for all types, color, and size of dogs. If all would take a little time to try to understand the other there would be less problems with the breed. The time for breeding for gameness is past. Not many did it in the past and almost none do it now.
Gameness is not a certain look, a certain color, a certain size, or a certain condition.


The difference lies in the fact that this breed has a standard. I know of many breeders who keep game "type" dogs. They may not test them, but they do keep the dogs to original standard and they actually use their dogs for hunting and other purposes. These breeders are doing the best they can to preserve this breed.
However, these bully breeders are not preserving the breed in any sense. Most will outright tell you they are breeding to whatever is popular. Go to a bully dog show and you are likely to hear of classes such as, "biggest head". (I have actually been to a show that gave a trophy for this."

At least these "game" type breeders will keep these dogs up to standard and breed for performance. On the other hand, the bluffs get bigger, slower, and unhealthier. All the while, they pimp the APBT name.

[pitbulliest]

The difference lies in the fact that this breed has a standard. I know of many breeders who keep game "type" dogs. They may not test them, but they do keep the dogs to original standard and they actually use their dogs for hunting and other purposes. These breeders are doing the best they can to preserve this breed.
However, these bully breeders are not preserving the breed in any sense. Most will outright tell you they are breeding to whatever is popular. Go to a bully dog show and you are likely to hear of classes such as, "biggest head". (I have actually been to a show that gave a trophy for this."

At least these "game" type breeders will keep these dogs up to standard and breed for performance. On the other hand, the bluffs get bigger, slower, and unhealthier. All the while, they pimp the APBT name.

"biggest head"????
You must be kidding, right? I don't know what dog shows you're going to, but the UKC and AKC do no such thing...and their standards do produce beautiful dogs that have amazing performance, stamina, physical appearance, temperament, and the drive to work in areas such as weight pulling, agility, even hunting. There are some fine specimens of "pit bulls" being produced by responsible owners that don't give a rat's azz about "gameness"...

these are the types of people that should be touching the dogs...they are the ones that are ensuring the preservation of the breed as well as giving them a much deserved and long overdue POSITIVE reputation...alot of these people are also involved in rescue, training, etc...they're not your average joes that put two dogs together and hope for the best. Too bad there aren't alot around to begin with.

The people you have referred to as game breeders aren't game breeders at all..there is only one definition of game; they test their dogs in the pit...and in my opinion, those aren't responsible breeders at all...

[pancho]

Although I agree with your definition... however, dog fighting is illegal, game breeding IS illegal because it does equal dog fighting....

I don't understand why anyone would breed for gameness anymore....well unless of course they are fighting their dogs...it has no purpose in today's day and age...and it does not have to do with breed preservation...

Mostly right. Dog fighting is illegal in the U.S. Breeding a game dog is not. But you cannot breed a game dog without that dog being game tested. Sort of a catch22. There is dog fighting going on in every state in the U.S. There is quite a difference in price of a grand champion show dog and a grand champion match dog. Many breeders are in it for the cash. The preservation of the breed has nothing to do with it. The problem is the number of dogs that have to be bred and the number raised to find one quality fighting dog. The % rate is very low.
There are those who are trying to preserve the breed. The problem is they cannot game test so they are just preserving a certain look not the game dog. Some depend on others to game test their dogs then obtain a related dog of that game dog. The result may be a dog that has a parent that was game but the likelyhood of the dog being game himself is very slim. It is easier to breed for DA. That can be seen and can be encouraged.
It is true there is little call for gameness today and will be even less in the future. The resulting dog will be a different dog than the pit bull. It may look like one as they come in all sizes and colors and it may be called a pit bull but it will not be the same. To some it will be an improvement, to some a loss.

[tommyt]

Dog aggression only came about after a bunch of idiots started breeding the dogs specifically FOR fighting in the pit...this trait wasn't always there in the breed...you know, the breed is older than just "those good ol days" that we know all too well when taking the history of the breed into account.

Why would you change it? Why NOT? What the heck is wrong with a pit bull that doesn't have dog aggression? You breed for the betterment of the breed...THAT, in my opinion, is preservation...keeping around dog aggression just because it was part of the breed at one point or another is selfishness and ignorance in my opinion...that's not what makes the breed..what makes the breed is its stamina, its willingness to please, its physical performance and capabilities, its working drive, etc................not whether or not it can tear apart another animal...

Wake up and smell the century you're living in..where animal aggression equals BSL equals bad press equals pit bulls being hated enough as it is.
ugh... :rolleyes:

The APBTs ancestor's were bull baiting dogs and such. Not the APBT. The American PIT Bull Terrier only existed AFTER it was being bred for the PIT. The Golden Retriever's ancestors weren't Golden Retrievers. It only became a GR after it was bred for generations as a GR. The ancestors of a dog is not the same as the dog itself.
Many different breeds have been mixed after the bull baiting days. The dogs were bred for completely different purposes for hundreds of years after bull baiting.
So how does this make the APBT and their bull baiting ancestors the same breed?

If you take a VW beetle and convert it into a full blown racecar that is a mix of other cars and is built for a completely different purpose, would you still have a beetle? Good luck registering it as one.

The problem with breeding out aggression is that it will result in a breed that is only a shell of the APBT. To me, if aggression is bred out, it is just as bad as the breed being completely banned. Either way, the true APBT will be gone.
Animal aggression is NOT the reason this breed in being banned. IRRESONSIBLE owners are the ones to blame.

[pancho]

The difference lies in the fact that this breed has a standard. I know of many breeders who keep game "type" dogs. They may not test them, but they do keep the dogs to original standard and they actually use their dogs for hunting and other purposes. These breeders are doing the best they can to preserve this breed.
However, these bully breeders are not preserving the breed in any sense. Most will outright tell you they are breeding to whatever is popular. Go to a bully dog show and you are likely to hear of classes such as, "biggest head". (I have actually been to a show that gave a trophy for this."

At least these "game" type breeders will keep these dogs up to standard and breed for performance. On the other hand, the bluffs get bigger, slower, and unhealthier. All the while, they pimp the APBT name.


I agree. Breeders of game "type" dogs breed for a certain standard. One problem is the standard is constantly changing. They also are just breeding for that certain look. Just as others are breeding for a certain look, sometimes big and blue. There should not be a lot of difference in the two breeders as they are both breeding for a look. Their choice of looks just are not the same.

[tommyt]

"biggest head"????
You must be kidding, right? I don't know what dog shows you're going to, but the UKC and AKC do no such thing...and their standards do produce beautiful dogs that have amazing performance, stamina, physical appearance, temperament, and the drive to work in areas such as weight pulling, agility, even hunting. There are some fine specimens of "pit bulls" being produced by responsible owners that don't give a rat's azz about "gameness"...

these are the types of people that should be touching the dogs...they are the ones that are ensuring the preservation of the breed as well as giving them a much deserved and long overdue POSITIVE reputation...alot of these people are also involved in rescue, training, etc...they're not your average joes that put two dogs together and hope for the best. Too bad there aren't alot around to begin with.

The people you have referred to as game breeders aren't game breeders at all..there is only one definition of game; they test their dogs in the pit...and in my opinion, those aren't responsible breeders at all...


Now you are arguing over nothing. Please, let's not go this route. I wasn't talking about UKC or AKC. I have seen some good looking dogs from each registry. I was talking about bluffs. I never mentioned anything about those registries.
Also, I never said game breeders. I said game "type" breeders. As in, the breeders that keep the dogs to standard. I didn't say they bred game dogs.

[tommyt]

I agree. Breeders of game "type" dogs breed for a certain standard. One problem is the standard is constantly changing. They also are just breeding for that certain look. Just as others are breeding for a certain look, sometimes big and blue. There should not be a lot of difference in the two breeders as they are both breeding for a look. Their choice of looks just are not the same.

Come on Pancho. You know that the standards of these game "type" dogs are pretty much exactly the same as what they were before. Look at a picture from a matchdog in the past and look at the dogs at a sanctioned ADBA or AADR show. They look the same.
These bullys arent even close to the same.

At least the game type breeders are trying to keep the breed as it was. Bully breeders threw the standard out the window. To say that breeders who are doing their best to preserve the breed are the same as those who purposefully change it is ridiculous. Even if it is based on looks. At least the game type breeders are breeding for the look that the standard calls for.

[pitbulliest]

The APBTs ancestor's were bull baiting dogs and such. Not the APBT. The American PIT Bull Terrier only existed AFTER it was being bred for the PIT. The Golden Retriever's ancestors weren't Golden Retrievers. It only became a GR after it was bred for generations as a GR. The ancestors of a dog is not the same as the dog itself.
Many different breeds have been mixed after the bull baiting days. The dogs were bred for completely different purposes for hundreds of years after bull baiting.
So how does this make the APBT and their bull baiting ancestors the same breed?

If you take a VW beetle and convert it into a full blown racecar that is a mix of other cars and is built for a completely different purpose, would you still have a beetle? Good luck registering it as one.

The problem with breeding out aggression is that it will result in a breed that is only a shell of the APBT. To me, if aggression is bred out, it is just as bad as the breed being completely banned. Either way, the true APBT will be gone.
Animal aggression is NOT the reason this breed in being banned. IRRESONSIBLE owners are the ones to blame.

Irresponsible owners that breed dogs for animal aggression are causing the breed to be banned...you can't argue that...

How is breeding aggression out as bad as the breed being completely banned? Are you hearing yourself? What could the breed possibly be losing by having DA bred out of it besides having a lack of DA? If you have no need for a fighting dog, then you still have a pit bull that will perform EVERYTHING ELSE that a fighting dog will do except the dog won't fight.

How is that a bad thing?....!!!!

[pitbulliest]

Now you are arguing over nothing. Please, let's not go this route. I wasn't talking about UKC or AKC. I have seen some good looking dogs from each registry. I was talking about bluffs. I never mentioned anything about those registries.
Also, I never said game breeders. I said game "type" breeders. As in, the breeders that keep the dogs to standard. I didn't say they bred game dogs.

What the heck is a game TYPE breeder? The breeder is either a game breeder or not....there is no in between.. :confused:

[tommyt]

Irresponsible owners that breed dogs for animal aggression are causing the breed to be banned...you can't argue that...

How is breeding aggression out as bad as the breed being completely banned? Are you hearing yourself? What could the breed possibly be losing by having DA bred out of it besides having a lack of DA? If you have no need for a fighting dog, then you still have a pit bull that will perform EVERYTHING ELSE that a fighting dog will do except the dog won't fight.

How is that a bad thing?....!!!!

I can argue that. My dog is extremely dog aggressive. I know of hundreds of dogs that are also very dog aggressive. Have they made the headlines? No. This is because they have responsible owners. This breed shouldn't be changed. The people who own these dogs need to change.

I am someone who truly loves this breed. I respect and admire EVERY quality of this breed, as a result.
Would someone who loves rottweillers, including their guarding tendencies, breed out guarding simply because they don't need it? I doubt it.

There are many other breeds with high levels of dog aggression. Should we change them too?

[tommyt]

What the heck is a game TYPE breeder? The breeder is either a game breeder or not....there is no in between.. :confused:

I apologize, I should have been more clear. I am referring to people who breed the dogs to maintain the performance and look of the original APBT without testing gameness. That is why I said "type". They look and act the part but they aren't fought.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

It's not as simple as people just "not liking" certain traits. People are being injured, and even killed, and so are other pets.

Whter you're a responsable owner or not, doesn't matter. If your dog happens to get out, an kills another dog, what do you say to that? It's because of the DA that are BRED into them. You can preach and preach as much as you want about how you're such a "repsonsable" owner, but it's not going to make a difference.

[pancho]

Come on Pancho. You know that the standards of these game "type" dogs are pretty much exactly the same as what they were before. Look at a picture from a matchdog in the past and look at the dogs at a sanctioned ADBA or AADR show. They look the same.
These bullys arent even close to the same.

At least the game type breeders are trying to keep the breed as it was. Bully breeders threw the standard out the window. To say that breeders who are doing their best to preserve the breed are the same as those who purposefully change it is ridiculous. Even if it is based on looks. At least the game type breeders are breeding for the look that the standard calls for.

Look at some of the old photos of game pit bulls. There is no standard for gameness. Take for example Colby's Pincher. Does he fit the standard of today? The UKC standard is different than the ADBA standard. The dogs look different. There has been a change in the type of the dogs in each registery from when they were started. AADR is just another of the alphabet registeries that has popped up. They are not really worth considering.
I am not defending the bully breeders and not the gamedog breeders either. There is little difference in them. Both are breeding for looks.

[tommyt]

It's not as simple as people just "not liking" certain traits. People are being injured, and even killed, and so are other pets.

Whter you're a responsable owner or not, doesn't matter. If your dog happens to get out, an kills another dog, what do you say to that? It's because of the DA that are BRED into them. You can preach and preach as much as you want about how you're such a "repsonsable" owner, but it's not going to make a difference.

Well, for one, the chances of my dog getting out is EXTREMELY slim.
Also, dog aggression is not killing or injuring people. Poor ownership, poor breeding, and over population are the reasons for the attacks.
As mentioned before, you never heard of attacks until this breed exploded into popularity.

[pancho]

DA and HA are two completely different things. A dog can be either or both. A DA dog does not attack people. A HA dog can be afraid of all types of dogs and will hide from them. They have little in common.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Yeah, I'm just not understanding what you're saying.

I wasn't specifically aiming my "of your dog gets out" comment towards YOU, it was in general.

Anyway, I'm over this thread. Good luck to the people who actually know what they're talking about. :)

[Dulce Pit Bull]

DA and HA are two completely different things. A dog can be either or both. A DA dog does not attack people. A HA dog can be afraid of all types of dogs and will hide from them. They have little in common.

Wasn't saying that. DA dogs CAN attack (bite) people. Read the news :rolleyes:

[pancho]

Wasn't saying that. DA dogs CAN attack (bite) people. Read the news :rolleyes:

That is not a DA dog. That is a HA dog. DA=dog aggressive HA=human aggressive.

[pitbulliest]

I can argue that. My dog is extremely dog aggressive. I know of hundreds of dogs that are also very dog aggressive. Have they made the headlines? No. This is because they have responsible owners. This breed shouldn't be changed. The people who own these dogs need to change.

I am someone who truly loves this breed. I respect and admire EVERY quality of this breed, as a result.
Would someone who loves rottweillers, including their guarding tendencies, breed out guarding simply because they don't need it? I doubt it.

There are many other breeds with high levels of dog aggression. Should we change them too?

Yes, there are many other breeds with high levels of dog aggression..but yet I don't see any of them making the headlines..and it has nothing to do with responsible ownership lol...how naive is that? You think that other dogs with aggression problems don't make the news because they have great owners? SO you're saying that only pit bulls face azzhole owners?

As much as you want to preach, dog aggression is a problem...and like Dulce mentioned, it doesn't always matter if you're responsible or not...accidents do happen..even to the most responsible dog owners...it doesn't need to be a part of the breed..like I said, there's no use for it, and the elimination of DA in the breed won't change it...it'll still be a pit bull is how I see it...

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Um, I'm not stupid. I know that.

You're saying that a DA dog CAN'T be HA. And you're wrong. Any dog has the ability to bite people.

[tommyt]

Look at some of the old photos of game pit bulls. There is no standard for gameness. Take for example Colby's Pincher. Does he fit the standard of today? The UKC standard is different than the ADBA standard. The dogs look different. There has been a change in the type of the dogs in each registery from when they were started. AADR is just another of the alphabet registeries that has popped up. They are not really worth considering.
I am not defending the bully breeders and not the gamedog breeders either. There is little difference in them. Both are breeding for looks.

So you are telling me that they are the same?

Do you honestly believe that because they don't game test they are breeding on looks alone? I know of alot of breeders and I know they don't breed on looks at all. They breed working dogs. They may not be fighters but they sure weren't bred for looks.

To assume that every one that doesn't fight their dogs is breeding for looks doesn't make much sense to me.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Yes, there are many other breeds with high levels of dog aggression..but yet I don't see any of them making the headlines..as much as you want to preach, dog aggression is a problem...and like Dulce mentioned, it doesn't always matter if you're responsible or not...accidents do happen..even to the most responsible dog owners...it doesn't need to be a part of the breed..like I said, there's no use for it, and the elimination of DA in the breed won't change it...it'll still be a pit bull is how I see it...

Nice job :) I believe that if DA is taken out of the Pit, it won't change it, it'll IMPROVE it.

I'm tired of Pit Bulls in the news that have "killed dogs" and "bitten people" or even "KILLE people". Something needs to be done, because it's not ok.

I LOVE my breed, and I do everything I can to educate, and make my dog the best she can be.

Some people LOVE the breed, but don't like that fact that they can be DA. And there's no problem with that. It doesn't mean they should choose another breed to appreciate.

[pitbulliest]

So you are telling me that they are the same?

Do you honestly believe that because they don't game test they are breeding on looks alone? I know of alot of breeders and I know they don't breed on looks at all. They breed working dogs. They may not be fighters but they sure weren't bred for looks.

To assume that every one that doesn't fight their dogs is breeding for looks doesn't make much sense to me.

Agreed...although I have to add that a truely responsible breeder will breed for both looks and performance.

[pancho]

Um, I'm not stupid. I know that.

You're saying that a DA dog CAN'T be HA. And you're wrong. Any dog has the ability to bite people.


You misread my post. I stated a dog can be both DA and HA. Some are not. A DA dog is aggressive to dogs. In your post you stated a DA dog has attacked people. It may be DA but it didn't attack a dog, it attacked a person so it is HA.

[Dulce Pit Bull]

Well, it IS their looks that make them so appealing to people.

Some people get this breed because they like the "looks" of it. It looks "hard" and "macho". So yes, I would agree that they are sometimes bred for looks.

Just like MOST dogs. (ie..toy breeds) dogs are bred for specific characteristics. Whether is be looks, or purpose.

[pancho]

So you are telling me that they are the same?

Do you honestly believe that because they don't game test they are breeding on looks alone? I know of alot of breeders and I know they don't breed on looks at all. They breed working dogs. They may not be fighters but they sure weren't bred for looks.

To assume that every one that doesn't fight their dogs is breeding for looks doesn't make much sense to me.


What other way are they using to choose their breeders? If they do not game test they are not choosing from gameness. They choose what, to them, is the best dog. Same as any other breeder. If they are just choosing a working dog there are many other breeds that are working breeds.
Nothing wrong with that. Just do not complain when others do the same. Their opinion is just different than yours.

[pitbulliest]

Technically speaking, pits are working dogs..

[tommyt]

Yes, there are many other breeds with high levels of dog aggression..but yet I don't see any of them making the headlines..and it has nothing to do with responsible ownership lol...how naive is that? You think that other dogs with aggression problems don't make the news because they have great owners? SO you're saying that only pit bulls face azzhole owners?

As much as you want to preach, dog aggression is a problem...and like Dulce mentioned, it doesn't always matter if you're responsible or not...accidents do happen..even to the most responsible dog owners...it doesn't need to be a part of the breed..like I said, there's no use for it, and the elimination of DA in the breed won't change it...it'll still be a pit bull is how I see it...


Well, you also don't seen 15 doberman and doberman mixes in the shelters. These dogs are VERY overpopulated. Of course, this will increase the chance of an attack happening by one of these dogs. Also, most of these dogs will be poorly bred, which increases the problem.

You asked, "SO you're saying that only pit bulls face azzhole owners?"
Not only, but this breed sure gets the brunt of them. Go to your local blockbuster and look for the pit bull videos they have. If a thug wants a dog, the dog of choice is pretty much always the pit bull.

There is no use for retrievers, no use for burrowing, and no need for herding in most situations. It is OK to breed these traits out, too? If you do, every one of those dogs will be nothing more than a shell of their breed.

Taking something out because you don't like it is the same as destroying it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another dog. If you want to breed it out. Fine. Call it something else. But, don't criticize those that love the breed and want to maintain it. Dog aggression is not a problem if it is handled properly. It does not make the dog a ticking time bomb.

[Renee750il]

Calm down, all . . . no need for personal stuff. It's a civil discussion. Don't get HA on us ;)

[pitbulliest]

Well, you also don't seen 15 doberman and doberman mixes in the shelters. These dogs are VERY overpopulated. Of course, this will increase the chance of an attack happening by one of these dogs. Also, most of these dogs will be poorly bred, which increases the problem.

You asked, "SO you're saying that only pit bulls face azzhole owners?"
Not only, but this breed sure gets the brunt of them. Go to your local blockbuster and look for the pit bull videos they have. If a thug wants a dog, the dog of choice is pretty much always the pit bull.

There is no use for retrievers, no use for burrowing, and no need for herding in most situations. It is OK to breed these traits out, too? If you do, every one of those dogs will be nothing more than a shell of their breed.

Taking something out because you don't like it is the same as destroying it. If you don't like dog aggression, get another dog. If you want to breed it out. Fine. Call it something else. But, don't criticize those that love the breed and want to maintain it. Dog aggression is not a problem if it is handled properly. It does not make the dog a ticking time bomb.

First of all, I do see alot of Dobermans in shelters..as well as alot of German Shephards and Collies...so I'm crossing that statement of yours out as valid.

Second of all, there is a heck of alot of use for retrievers and herders...there are field trials held every year in hundreds of cities just in north america...that's not including europe, which holds more than we do here...therefore, nobody will be breeding out these traits any time soon...it is still valid, and reputable...its a sport...dog fighting IS NOT...if you breed DA out of a pit, it won't be a "shell"....it'll be a pit with no DA...

lol I don't understand how hard that is TO understand

[pitbulliest]

UGH! You are SO annoying!

There is NO REASON FOR DOG AGGRESSION!!! Get it through your head! There is NO purpose for it. There IS purpose for hunting, scent, rescue, etc.

Pits were bred for DA. But for what? For illegal fighitng activity. There is NO purpose behind dog fighting, and it shouldn't exist.

I can't believe you said "Dog aggression is not a problem if it is handled properly" How ignorant can you be?

You can't always handle certain situations, you can't always control a dog. I don't care WHO you are. DA IS a problem, and should not be tolerated

I agree...there is no reason for it..and it can't be compared to hunting, scent, rescue, etc....it has no purpose in the pit bull today.

[LuvinBullies]

Oh for the love of joy please don't bring up the game dog forum as an example of anything. Having read a few threads on there, I have become a major hater of that place....no offense to anyone that goes there or posts there, but there are clearly dog fighters and supporters of "game" breeding on there that don't give two cents about the welfare of their dogs or the breed in general...

Just try going on there and speaking up after you see a picture of a tattered up dog..just TRY to ask if its a result of a dog fight and you'll see how they jump down your throat...because they KNOW what they do is illegal...heaven forbid we all didn't already know :rolleyes:

BLECH *pukes*

My apologies to this forum- this is an OT response to an OT post

That was ugly, and borders on a personal attack. I respect everyone's convictions here as individuals- if some people over here strike me in a certain way which I don't like I would NEVER go around talking bad about the whole Chaz forum. I have gone over to game-dog and rallied support for this forum. 'preciate it. You just grouped some very wonderful people into a very nasty generalization. Some of the people on game-dog have done more selfless acts for animals and people than anyone I know. There are hotheads anywhere you go, and they do not represent the whole of anything.

I am sorry you hate us and don't think we care for the welfare of our dogs.
I am sure there are a few thousand dogs who would disagree with you. There are so many knowledgeable people over there who fiercely love the breed. There are rescuers and pet owners, working and show dog owners alike. Did you ask someone if their dog was fought or did you accuse them of being a dogfighter? Was it an old picture? What dog are you referring to because I would like to follow up on this. I don't know ANYONE who has posted a picture of their own "tattered up" dog as a result of a dog fight. I mean no one.

Sorry guys, I just wanted to defend some people who are not here to defend themselves. I do not speak for an entire group of anyone- just the people I know for a fact were mislabeled in the above post, which were quite a few.

Pitbulliest- all the best to you and your dogs and I am sorry you feel that way about our entire forum, but I can promise you such harsh words weren't said over there about yours.

[tommyt]

UGH! You are SO annoying!

There is NO REASON FOR DOG AGGRESSION!!! Get it through your head! There is NO purpose for it. There IS purpose for hunting, scent, rescue, etc.

Pits were bred for DA. But for what? For illegal fighitng activity. There is NO purpose behind dog fighting, and it shouldn't exist.

I can't believe you said "


Just because something doesn't have a purpose, we should get rid of it? DA is something that was put into this dog for a purpose. It is a part of the breed. Getting rid of it strips the breed of a trait. Regardless, if it is needed in this day and time.

A dog that desires to sit in my lap does me no good. I have no use for a dog that wants to sit around all day. Heck, I might trip over it. I guarantee you more people die from tripping over things than being attacked by pit bulls. So, I will breed out the lap dog tendencies and make it so hyper that it runs on the walls instead of the floor. Every body thank me for improving the breed! Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

[pancho]

UGH! You are SO annoying!

There is NO REASON FOR DOG AGGRESSION!!! Get it through your head! There is NO purpose for it. There IS purpose for hunting, scent, rescue, etc.

Pits were bred for DA. But for what? For illegal fighitng activity. There is NO purpose behind dog fighting, and it shouldn't exist.

I can't believe you said "Dog aggression is not a problem if it is handled properly" How ignorant can you be?

You can't always handle certain situations, you can't always control a dog. I don't care WHO you are. DA IS a problem, and should not be tolerated


What makes the U.S. such a great place is each person is free to do mostly as they want. Different people have different opinions. They like different dogs. That is why there are so many different breeds. They also have their own opinions on what they breed for. Each person is free to breed their dog they way they want. Some do not like DA, some do. No person gets to make the decision on how other people breed their dogs or for what purpose.

[Renee750il]

No apologies necessary, LuvinBullies. That post was over the top - and actually uncharacteristic of Pitbulliest. But, as you can tell, she's very passionate about the plight of the Pit today.

One of the things we've been very adamant about here is NOT dragging controversies, real or imagined, from other forums to Chazhound.

[tommyt]

First of all, I do see alot of Dobermans in shelters..as well as alot of German Shephards and Collies...so I'm crossing that statement of yours out as valid.

Second of all, there is a heck of alot of use for retrievers and herders...there are field trials held every year in hundreds of cities just in north america...that's not including europe, which holds more than we do here...therefore, nobody will be breeding out these traits any time soon...it is still valid, and reputable...its a sport...dog fighting IS NOT...if you breed DA out of a pit, it won't be a "shell"....it'll be a pit with no DA...

lol I don't understand how hard that is TO understand


I completely disagree with you. I understand what you are saying. I comprehend fine. As a result, I find your statements completely ridiculous, to be quite honest. I really don't appreciate you insinuating that I can't comprehend simply because we don't share the same views.
We won't see eye to eye. Therefore, let's leave it alone. We aren't getting anywhere and this thread is getting way off track.

[pitbulliest]

:rolleyes:


Just interjecting here: STAY FAR AWAY FROM DIANE & ALL HER LYING CRAP!

She's one of the biggest hypocrites involved in the breed. Not only does she NOT practice what she preaches (like for example, she's bred litters before & has even had an "oops" litter--NO responsible person EVER has an "oops" litter), but she doesn't even title her dogs herself.....someone else comes in, trains her dogs, works her dogs, competes with her dogs, & she slaps her name on it to get her 15 minutes of fame. I could go on, but this isn't a bash D.J. thread, but just for future reference, don't believe a word that comes out of that idiotic & way too loud mouth.

How do you know all this? :confused:

[tommyt]

First of all, I do see alot of Dobermans in shelters..as well as alot of German Shephards and Collies...so I'm crossing that statement of yours out as valid.

Second of all, there is a heck of alot of use for retrievers and herders...there are field trials held every year in hundreds of cities just in north america...that's not including europe, which holds more than we do here...therefore, nobody will be breeding out these traits any time soon...it is still valid, and reputable...its a sport...dog fighting IS NOT...if you breed DA out of a pit, it won't be a "shell"....it'll be a pit with no DA...

lol I don't understand how hard that is TO understand


Come down south and you will find at least 15 pit bull and pit bull mixes for every other breed. It is a very valid statement where I am from.

You all seem to feel that it is fine to remove traits that were practically a requirement for the development of the breed because they aren't needed anymore. I think that is why most breeds go down hill. I feel that it is absolutely disrespectful of the breed. However, I can't change your minds. Let's move on.

[pitbulliest]

My apologies to this forum- this is an OT response to an OT post

That was ugly, and borders on a personal attack. I respect everyone's convictions here as individuals- if some people over here strike me in a certain way which I don't like I would NEVER go around talking bad about the whole Chaz forum. I have gone over to game-dog and rallied support for this forum. 'preciate it. You just grouped some very wonderful people into a very nasty generalization. Some of the people on game-dog have done more selfless acts for animals and people than anyone I know. There are hotheads anywhere you go, and they do not represent the whole of anything.

I am sorry you hate us and don't think we care for the welfare of our dogs.
I am sure there are a few thousand dogs who would disagree with you. There are so many knowledgeable people over there who fiercely love the breed. There are rescuers and pet owners, working and show dog owners alike. Did you ask someone if their dog was fought or did you accuse them of being a dogfighter? Was it an old picture? What dog are you referring to because I would like to follow up on this. I don't know ANYONE who has posted a picture of their own "tattered up" dog as a result of a dog fight. I mean no one.

Sorry guys, I just wanted to defend some people who are not here to defend themselves. I do not speak for an entire group of anyone- just the people I know for a fact were mislabeled in the above post, which were quite a few.

Pitbulliest- all the best to you and your dogs and I am sorry you feel that way about our entire forum, but I can promise you such harsh words weren't said over there about yours.

I didn't make a personal attack on anyone in particular...I said as a whole, I hate the forum in general..yes...that's a personal opinion of mine based on my experience of the place, and that I'm not about to change...I'm sorry if you're offended...I'm sure there are nice people on there...no doubt...but if you read my post, I said there are clearly dog fighters on there as well...which is undeniable.

If you're a member there, hey I have nothing against you...and I appologize if I offended you as an individual....I just don't find it necessary to post information from OTHER forums on here and hold it as valid or special...or whatever it is that you were trying to do? Didn't expect you to get offended really.

[pitbulliest]

Come down south and you will find at least 15 pit bull and pit bull mixes for every other breed. It is a very valid statement where I am from.

You all seem to feel that it is fine to remove traits that were practically a requirement for the development of the breed because they aren't needed anymore. I think that is why most breeds go down hill. I feel that it is absolutely disrespectful of the breed. However, I can't change your minds. Let's move on.

So if you disagree with DA not being "needed anymore"..than tell me why its needed, and how the pit bull can go "downhill" if that aspect of its nature is taken out of the picture...?

[blue]

It's not as simple as people just "not liking" certain traits. People are being injured, and even killed, and so are other pets.

Whter you're a responsable owner or not, doesn't matter. If your dog happens to get out, an kills another dog, what do you say to that? It's because of the DA that are BRED into them. You can preach and preach as much as you want about how you're such a "repsonsable" owner, but it's not going to make a difference.

The dogs that are injuring and killing people as well as pets, are caused by bad breeding and even worse owners.

[tommyt]

So if you disagree with DA not being "needed anymore"..than tell me why its needed, and how the pit bull can go "downhill" if that aspect of its nature is taken out of the picture...?

It is needed because it is a cornerstone trait of the breed. Plain and simple. In my opinion, if the only thing that changed was DA, it still would be the end of the breed. Something vital for the development of a fighting dog would be gone. An APBT is a fighting dog and you have removed the fight out of it. Sure, you could do this and call it something else. But, to say that all APBTs should be rid of DA and still be called APBTs is crazy.

I wouldn't mind having a dog that was non DA but had everything else APBTs offer. But, I would not call them APBTs.

[pitbulliest]

tommyt

so then call me crazy.

end of conversation..this is pointless...

[Zoom]

I have an honest question. If DA is such a vital part of the breed...do you all still count "cold" dogs as APBT's? It seems that so much is hinging on DA (in regards to this topic) alone that all the rest that is good about the breed has fallen to the wayside. Is DA the only way to have heart and fighting spirit? What about GSD's? While there is DA running throughout the breed, it's not a "cornerstone trait"...but they still have a huge amount of spirit. Or even JRT's...again, terriers seems to be quite prone to DA, but it's not something that was deliberatly bred for, yet they are incredibly tenacious little buggers.

[pitbulliest]

I have an honest question. If DA is such a vital part of the breed...do you all still count "cold" dogs as APBT's? It seems that so much is hinging on DA (in regards to this topic) alone that all the rest that is good about the breed has fallen to the wayside. Is DA the only way to have heart and fighting spirit? What about GSD's? While there is DA running throughout the breed, it's not a "cornerstone trait"...but they still have a huge amount of spirit. Or even JRT's...again, terriers seems to be quite prone to DA, but it's not something that was deliberatly bred for, yet they are incredibly tenacious little buggers.

There...FINALLY..that is exactly what I have been trying to say the entire evening of posting...you have summed it up perfectly...thank you Zoom. :hail:

To say that if DA is taken out of the pit bull..its a "shell" and no longer an APBT is cruel.

[tommyt]

I have an honest question. If DA is such a vital part of the breed...do you all still count "cold" dogs as APBT's? It seems that so much is hinging on DA (in regards to this topic) alone that all the rest that is good about the breed has fallen to the wayside. Is DA the only way to have heart and fighting spirit? What about GSD's? While there is DA running throughout the breed, it's not a "cornerstone trait"...but they still have a huge amount of spirit. Or even JRT's...again, terriers seems to be quite prone to DA, but it's not something that was deliberatly bred for, yet they are incredibly tenacious little buggers.


Well, a dog couldn't perform its original task if it didn't want to fight. It had to want to fight the other dog. Therefore, DA had to be part of the breed. Remember, they weren't forced to fight. They were bred for it.

The reason cold dogs are still considered APBTs is because they weren't bred to be cold. They were bred to be fighters but just ended up being non DA.

DA is not something that is directly sought after. It is not of real importance when measuring the quality of the animal. However, that dog has to be DA enough to want to perform its task or they would never be able to see whether it is breeding material or not.

[pancho]

I have an honest question. If DA is such a vital part of the breed...do you all still count "cold" dogs as APBT's? It seems that so much is hinging on DA (in regards to this topic) alone that all the rest that is good about the breed has fallen to the wayside. Is DA the only way to have heart and fighting spirit? What about GSD's? While there is DA running throughout the breed, it's not a "cornerstone trait"...but they still have a huge amount of spirit. Or even JRT's...again, terriers seems to be quite prone to DA, but it's not something that was deliberatly bred for, yet they are incredibly tenacious little buggers.
While DA is a trait of many pit bulls all pit bulls are not DA. Even in the days when dog fighting was legal some of the best fighting dogs were not DA. I realize it is hard to understand and even harder to explain. For many pit bull breeders DA is a sign of gameness. It isn't true but that doesn't stop many from thinking that.

[tommyt]

I'm taking it to bed. Sorry, if I came across as rude at any point. I'll check on the thread tomorrow.

[Zoom]

Ok. I was trying to understand "desirable DA" a little more, because it's very much not a trait I want in any of my dogs. But then again, I'm a herding breed type of gal. You have yours, I have mine. :)

[tommyt]

To say that if DA is taken out of the pit bull..its a "shell" and no longer an APBT is cruel.


Sounds like common sense to me. If God took some of my traits away, I wouldn't be the same person. I may look the same. But, that is about it.

[pancho]

Ok. I was trying to understand "desirable DA" a little more, because it's very much not a trait I want in any of my dogs. But then again, I'm a herding breed type of gal. You have yours, I have mine. :)
DA may be lacking in herding types but there is plenty of prey drive. Many border collies have some DA also. Herding is just basically the prey drive channelled into another useful tool.

[blue]

Sounds like common sense to me. If God took some of my traits away, I wouldn't be the same person. I may look the same. But, that is about it.

But as a whole you would be human, with different traits. You would be a different individual in the breed.

[Renee750il]

DA may be lacking in herding types but there is plenty of prey drive. Many border collies have some DA also. Herding is just basically the prey drive channelled into another useful tool.

Good point, Pancho . . . herders - like some hunters - often must work together with other dogs. Mine aren't DA at all, they are the most affable with other dogs of the Mastiff breeds, but they aren't fond of strangers in the least - handy trait in a guardian ;)

[pitbulliest]

The reason cold dogs are still considered APBTs is because they weren't bred to be cold. They were bred to be fighters but just ended up being non DA.

So are you saying that some of the responsible pit bull breeders out there that are trying to breed out dog aggression from their lines are in fact NOT breeding APBTs?

I also disagree with you saying that the dogs weren't forced to fight...they didn't just happen to go into the pit ring by themselves...their owners didn't just happen to encourage them to fight by pushing them at each other...they didn't just happen to have no other choice when they are surrounded by walls in a fighting pit with no way out...

Unless I'm missing something, I disagree with that statement that you made.

[pancho]

So are you saying that some of the responsible pit bull breeders out there that are trying to breed out dog aggression from their lines are in fact NOT breeding APBTs?

I also disagree with you saying that the dogs weren't forced to fight...they didn't just happen to go into the pit ring by themselves...their owners didn't just happen to encourage them to fight by pushing them at each other...they didn't just happen to have no other choice when they are surrounded by walls in a fighting pit with no way out...

Unless I'm missing something, I disagree with that statement that you made.

That really wasn't the way it was. The owner does not push the dog. The walls of the pit are not very tall, the dog can jump out any time it wants to. They really didn't even have to jump the pit. If they ever decide to quit fighting the fight is over. The other dog has won and there is no need to continue with the match. You cannot make a dog fight. Many have tried without success.

[pitbulliest]

what's disturbing is that you're making it sound like its the dog's choice....like dog fighting is just another sport that the dog's don't seem to mind...

sorry if I'm wrong..its just what I'm reading. Not saying you're justifying it...but...well it's a little creepy.

[pitbulliest]

But as a whole you would be human, with different traits. You would be a different individual in the breed.

Well put

[Gamedogs]

I have an honest question. If DA is such a vital part of the breed...do you all still count "cold" dogs as APBT's? It seems that so much is hinging on DA (in regards to this topic) alone that all the rest that is good about the breed has fallen to the wayside. Is DA the only way to have heart and fighting spirit? What about GSD's? While there is DA running throughout the breed, it's not a "cornerstone trait"...but they still have a huge amount of spirit. Or even JRT's...again, terriers seems to be quite prone to DA, but it's not something that was deliberatly bred for, yet they are incredibly tenacious little buggers.Dog aggression is only a vital part of the breed because it is natural to them (as a "breed" not a "label"). They were never bred for "dog aggression" they were bred to fight a dog in a pit, and as a result, some of them are extremely dog aggressive to any and every animal with four legs and fur, some of them are not dog aggressive at all, and some of them can control it (in fact, some "match dogs" of the past were raised around other dogs, and got along with many other dogs unless the dog was put in a pit).

A "cold" dog who is an APBT is of course an APBT. But a "cold" dog who has been purposefully, and selfishly, bred to be "cold" is not an APBT. It is completely ludicrous for people to claim that dog aggression is the cause of the "pit bull problem" and on the other hand, it is sad because the very ones who claim to love dogs labeled as "pit bulls" are the same ones helping to kill them off in the same sentence.

Although dog aggression actually has nothing to do with this "topic" nor does claiming to want to change an entire breed of dog because they have an opinion, I'm responding to this only because you are a moderator. This thread is currently going no where because of the "debate" of undesirable information in a present tense when the "topic" of this thread is clearly about the past. Obviously there will always be those who simply will not accept it or want to post hundreds of pointless posts to act as if they know everything and are experts in their field of "pit bulls," but it can be limited. There's no point to continue to allow people to do the very same thing to this thread as they have in a couple of others, I honestly don't see the need.

[pancho]

what's disturbing is that you're making it sound like its the dog's choice....like dog fighting is just another sport that the dog's don't seem to mind...

sorry if I'm wrong..its just what I'm reading. Not saying you're justifying it...but...well it's a little creepy.

Dog fighting was not ever something everyone agreed with, even when it was legal. I am not trying to justify it, just explain a little about it. Most people don't know anything about dog fighting. It has its rules just like any other blood sport.
Some pit bulls enjoyed fighting as much as a pointer enjoys hunting. Much like a beagle enjoys running rabbits. In some cases they even will go off their feed like a dog will do when it is sick until they are allowed a roll.
The pit bull was bred to fight like any other type of dog that was bred for a certain job. They enjoyed their job just like other breeds enjoyed their jobs.

[blue]

DA is part of the APBT breed and history, how is it not part of this thread?

Would the dogmen of old not have culled a cold APBT?

[pitbulliest]

Dog fighting was not ever something everyone agreed with, even when it was legal. I am not trying to justify it, just explain a little about it. Most people don't know anything about dog fighting. It has its rules just like any other blood sport.
Some pit bulls enjoyed fighting as much as a pointer enjoys hunting. Much like a beagle enjoys running rabbits. In some cases they even will go off their feed like a dog will do when it is sick until they are allowed a roll.
The pit bull was bred to fight like any other type of dog that was bred for a certain job. They enjoyed their job just like other breeds enjoyed their jobs.

Yes...the only difference between actual sports and DOG FIGHTING is that dog fighting involves alot of blood, alot of pain, alot of death, and alot of abuse to the dogs....

There's no justification for that at all. I hope you agree.

[pancho]

DA is part of the APBT breed and history, how is it not part of this thread?

Would the dogmen of old not have culled a cold APBT?

Not necessarily. Many dogs were bred because of their bloodline. They were never tested. Some were tested and curred out and were used for breeding. It was and still is a decision each person had to make. Some cold dogs produced very game dogs.

[pitbulliest]

A "cold" dog who is an APBT is of course an APBT. But a "cold" dog who has been purposefully, and selfishly, bred to be "cold" is not an APBT.

Wow..you are making quite the leap in logic here... I guess all those breeders that are trying to breed DA out pits purposely are selfish...and I guess my dog isn't an APBT..its just...some unknown breed of dog...

I'm assuming that you see nothing wrong with game breeding...or testing dogs for "gameness" for that matter by putting them in a pit. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'm genuinly curious.

[pancho]

Yes...the only difference between actual sports and DOG FIGHTING is that dog fighting involves alot of blood, alot of pain, alot of death, and alot of abuse to the dogs....

There's no justification for that at all. I hope you agree.

I will just let each person make that decision for themselves. It isn't my place to tell others what to believe.
Many more greyhounds are killed each year than dogs killed in the pit. Even when dog fighting was legal.

[blue]

Not necessarily. Many dogs were bred because of their bloodline. They were never tested. Some were tested and curred out and were used for breeding. It was and still is a decision each person had to make. Some cold dogs produced very game dogs.

Thank you for the answer. Ive been wondering what would happen to dogs that turned first, or jumped.

*edit*

I still dont understand why Gamedog says DA isnt part of this discussion.

[pancho]

Thank you for the answer. Ive been wondering what would happen to dogs that turned first, or jumped.

*edit*

I still dont understand why Gamedog says DA isnt part of this discussion.

Many of the dogs that curred out or jumped the pit were destroyed. The matches in the old days were for cash. Very few dogs were matched just to watch them. That is more likely to happen nowdays. Many of the old dog fighters were gamblers. If the dog made money it was taken care of. If it didn't it was of no more use to them. It was destroyed and another one was bought. All of the dog fighters were not dog breeders.

[Bahamutt99]

Every single breed has the capacity to show aggression towards its own kind. Breeding the DA out of any breed is an exercise in futility. Personally, I don't consider the level of DA in this breed to be unmanageably high anyway. These are also very smart dogs, and if you teach them they can't act like idiots and try to grab other dogs, they'll learn.

Short answer to the DA issue, to my mind. It shouldn't really enter into the equation unless the dog is at the extreme on either end. (Screaming maniac around other dogs, or flat-out afraid of other dogs.) A dog with a regular level -- for this breed -- of DA should be evaluated on their other traits as to whether or not they are breed-worthy. A potential breeder shouldn't be selected strictly for their level of DA, or their lack of DA. There are many things that are more important.

[elegy]

First of all, I do see alot of Dobermans in shelters..as well as alot of German Shephards and Collies...so I'm crossing that statement of yours out as valid.

the ADBA alone registered about 200,000 dogs last year. that's pure bred, registered pit bulls. the UKC won't give numbers by breed but they registered about 300,000 dogs last year and the pit bull was the 2nd most popular.

the most popular akc breed last year was the labrador retriever with just shy of 174,000.

the german shepherd was 4th with 45.014. the doberman 21st with 11,662.

just sayin'.

[Amstaffer]

I have to say that I feel the same way when I hear people talking about breeding the Fila "down." If the temperament isn't something you are able or willing to deal with, look at a different breed.

But there is no legal reason for DA now...it isn't need to keep the breed what it is? Why keep a trait alive that isn't legal or needed? With the Fila, guard dogs are still legal and needed....dog fighting isn't. apples and oranges I think.

Plus I don't think it would be breeding Pit Bulls down...instead it would be breeding the up :D

[Amstaffer]

The problem with breeding out aggression is that it will result in a breed that is only a shell of the APBT. .

Why is DA so important to the breed standard? The breed has so many other things to offer? Why would it be shell? Why wouldn't it be an improvement, as it would make it better and more suitable for this time.

[Amstaffer]

The dogs that are injuring and killing people as well as pets, are caused by bad breeding and even worse owners.

What about all the dogs that are hurt and killed by Dogfighting dogs? The ones that are matched against each other, after each fight even the winner is usually injured. I think we forget about the dogs who are fought like when they get hurt its ok........

[Amstaffer]

The reason cold dogs are still considered APBTs is because they weren't bred to be cold. They were bred to be fighters but just ended up being non DA.
.
Genetically setting the stage is a form a forcing them to fight. If you breed a dog genetically to have a short breathing passage you are pretty much forcing it to snore and snort. If you hyper-breed a dog to be DA then you are forcing it to fight.

[Amstaffer]

Sounds like common sense to me. If God took some of my traits away, I wouldn't be the same person. I may look the same. But, that is about it.
If God took my road rage away, I would be me and I would be healthier and happier.

[Amstaffer]

That really wasn't the way it was. The owner does not push the dog. The walls of the pit are not very tall, the dog can jump out any time it wants to. They really didn't even have to jump the pit. If they ever decide to quit fighting the fight is over. The other dog has won and there is no need to continue with the match. You cannot make a dog fight. Many have tried without success.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't many dogs who "Cur out" get shot behind the ear later?:( :mad:

[Amstaffer]

DA is part of the APBT breed and history, how is it not part of this thread?

?

Anything that does not fit a certain worldview on Pits is beneath discussion or plain ignorant. That is the belief of some posting here...not me.

[Amstaffer]

.
Many more greyhounds are killed each year than dogs killed in the pit. Even when dog fighting was legal.

I disagree with that.... over 1300 Pit Bulls in Milwaukee WI were found dead last year. Those were the one that were found :yikes: :confused:

Granted they might not be the "True-Dogmen" but it is still happening.



### sorry for all the post in a row but I had lots to say....you guys were busy last night. :p

[tommyt]

Please, let's leave the discussion of DA alone. It is going nowhere. The bottom line is, there is no way that this breed will ever have DA bred out so the argument is pointless. If you think DA should be bred out, that is your opinion. Expect those that want to preserve the breed to disagree. DA is not a problem. It does not lead to attacks on humans and it does not lead to attacks on animals if it is properly taken care of. DA is not a problem. The people are the problem. Therefore, why breed it out? You just don't like the fact that your dog was bred to fight and you want to rid them of their fighting traits simply because they are no longer fought. However, you should remember that your dogs are the way that they are because they are fighting dogs. However, you want to breed them for the exact opposite. As a result, you should expect this to make an impact on other aspects of the breed.

There are much better things to discuss than this. It is pointless. Please, let's move along.

[tommyt]

Anything that does not fit a certain worldview on Pits is beneath discussion or plain ignorant. That is the belief of some posting here...not me.

Not you? Are you serious?

[tommyt]

Genetically setting the stage is a form a forcing them to fight. If you breed a dog genetically to have a short breathing passage you are pretty much forcing it to snore and snort. If you hyper-breed a dog to be DA then you are forcing it to fight.

You can't stop a dog from snoring but to prevent a fight, all you have to do is be responsible. It isn't difficult. I have never had an accident in over 10 years. My dogs have all been DA. However, they haven't got in a fight. I sure can't see how breeding a DA dog is forcing them to fight. Heck, I can't find any way that it would help the situation. DA is not the cause of the problem. The problem this breed is facing is due to poor ownership. Why would you want to change something that has nothing to do with the problem? If you want to fix something, you work on the problem. DA is not the problem. So, why are we even discussing it?

Stop worrying about the fact that APBTs are DA. They are acting how the breed is SUPPOSED TO ACT. They are a fighting breed. Therefore, there will be a level of DA. Big deal. The concern about DA is based on your hate of dogfighting. It does nothing good for the breed, whatsoever. Instead of focusing all of this energy into DA and dogfighting. Maybe, you should focus on the real problem. Poor ownership and overpopulation. That is what is important. That is what results in the problems we face. Not DA.

If you take away DA (if it were even possible), we would still be overpopulated with these dogs and there still would be irresponsible owners who raise man eaters (which has nothing to do with DA). If we are going to go off-track, at least we can focus on what is the REAL issue.

[elegy]

What you fail to understand....is to many of us the real issue or problem is Dogfighting and the abuse of the animals. To me the problem is not the very few (relatively) people who are killed by dogs every year (Pits or other breeds) the PROBLEM is that millions of dogs are killed, abused and exploited ever year. If you eliminate the DA (and any HA if there is any) then you elminate the dogfighting.

you're not going to eliminate dog fighting by eliminating dog aggression in the pit bull. those who want to fight dogs will simply move onto another breed. if there is no other breed, they will create the breed.

i in no way support dog fighting, not one little tiny bit, and i'm pretty sure i've made that clear in this thread. but i see absolutely no need to eliminate dog aggression from the pit bull (even if it were possible, which it's not, especially with the number of pit bulls currently being bred). both of my dogs are DA and it's more a nuisance than a problem. it's not that hard to manage. it's not the big deal that it's being made out to be in this thread.

[tommyt]

you're not going to eliminate dog fighting by eliminating dog aggression in the pit bull. those who want to fight dogs will simply move onto another breed. if there is no other breed, they will create the breed.

i in no way support dog fighting, not one little tiny bit, and i'm pretty sure i've made that clear in this thread. but i see absolutely no need to eliminate dog aggression from the pit bull (even if it were possible, which it's not, especially with the number of pit bulls currently being bred). both of my dogs are DA and it's more a nuisance than a problem. it's not that hard to manage. it's not the big deal that it's being made out to be in this thread.


Thank you!

[pitbulliest]

Every single breed has the capacity to show aggression towards its own kind. Breeding the DA out of any breed is an exercise in futility. Personally, I don't consider the level of DA in this breed to be unmanageably high anyway. These are also very smart dogs, and if you teach them they can't act like idiots and try to grab other dogs, they'll learn.

Short answer to the DA issue, to my mind. It shouldn't really enter into the equation unless the dog is at the extreme on either end. (Screaming maniac around other dogs, or flat-out afraid of other dogs.) A dog with a regular level -- for this breed -- of DA should be evaluated on their other traits as to whether or not they are breed-worthy. A potential breeder shouldn't be selected strictly for their level of DA, or their lack of DA. There are many things that are more important.

You make a good point about the extremes...I think though, for the sake of this conversation, most of us were thinking of extreme dog aggression as opposed to a dog barking at another one or picking fights with a few dogs here and there.

Or maybe I speak for myself. I still maintain, however, that responsible breeders should not take dog aggression lightly...if it was bred out, it wouldn't be a loss, it would be a bonus to the breed..IMO

[pitbulliest]

But there is no legal reason for DA now...it isn't need to keep the breed what it is? Why keep a trait alive that isn't legal or needed? With the Fila, guard dogs are still legal and needed....dog fighting isn't. apples and oranges I think.

Plus I don't think it would be breeding Pit Bulls down...instead it would be breeding the up :D

are you married?

LOL

*bravo* :hail:

[Miakoda]

Please, let's leave the discussion of DA alone. It is going nowhere. The bottom line is, there is no way that this breed will ever have DA bred out so the argument is pointless. If you think DA should be bred out, that is your opinion. Expect those that want to preserve the breed to disagree. DA is not a problem. It does not lead to attacks on humans and it does not lead to attacks on animals if it is properly taken care of. DA is not a problem. The people are the problem. Therefore, why breed it out? You just don't like the fact that your dog was bred to fight and you want to rid them of their fighting traits simply because they are no longer fought. However, you should remember that your dogs are the way that they are because they are fighting dogs. However, you want to breed them for the exact opposite. As a result, you should expect this to make an impact on other aspects of the breed.

There are much better things to discuss than this. It is pointless. Please, let's move along.


I agree. And why not all the fuss to breed DA out of all the other terrier breeds & bulldog breeds? Why focus on just this one?

I love the breed for what it is & all that it entails. If they are DA, big deal. I'm a big girl & know how to deal with them. I got my dogs to interact with me & my family...I didn't get them so I could get a whole pack of dogs that will babysit each other & I can get away with not giving them attention b/c they get it from other dogs.

I understand some of you are hellbent on breeding out the DA. But if that's the case, you are saying you do NOT like the APBT in it's present form so in order to suit your own whims & desires, you want to change it b/c in your opinion that would make it better. Well, IMO, if you don't like the breed as it is, move on. There are several traits in other breeds I don't find appealing, but instead of ranting & raving that those traits must be fixed b/c the dogs would be better pets without them, I leave those breeds to the fanciers who love them as they are.

And just a question: If you have a great showdog with awesome conformation & also is titled in many area & also passed healthtests with flying colors but is extremely DA, you say don't breed it? Should we toss all the standards out the window & just start breeding dogs that aren't DA (regardless of the fact that we don't know if the trait is just lying dormant) to other non-DA dogs in order to get rid of this trait?

I've said what I'm going to say on the DA issue. I was hoping this thread would be a good one in which people could learn about the history, but some "lovers" of the breed are more intent on making sure that the studying of the APBT should be illegal (as it condones illegal activity) & that we should be more worried about breeding dogs without DA vs. learning to love the breed for what it is. Too bad.

[pancho]

I disagree with that.... over 1300 Pit Bulls in Milwaukee WI were found dead last year. Those were the one that were found :yikes: :confused:

Granted they might not be the "True-Dogmen" but it is still happening.



### sorry for all the post in a row but I had lots to say....you guys were busy last night. :p

Recently in Alabama a single grave for greyhounds was found. They couldn't count all of them and do not know if they even found all of the grave sites but there were several thousands in the single grave.

[pancho]

What you fail to understand....is to many of us the real issue or problem is Dogfighting and the abuse of the animals. To me the problem is not the very few (relatively) people who are killed by dogs every year (Pits or other breeds) the PROBLEM is that millions of dogs are killed, abused and exploited ever year. If you eliminate the DA (and any HA if there is any) then you elminate the dogfighting.

You think when I speak of problem I am talking about kids getting mauled, I'll leave that problem to others to champion (which I agree is the result of stupid and abusive owners). I am most worried about the HUGE numbers of dogs that are destroyed physically and mentally in dogfighting.

IF you disagree with me I don't say you are ignorant or an idiot (like other have), I try to point out were you are wrong and let third parties who are lurking here see the logic behind the evils of dog fighting.

Is anyone from Game Dog or that is infavor of DA in Pits willing to condemn Dogfighting for the record? I asked that question about 8 pages back and no one would...just wondering why?

Also...you keep saying "we who wish to preserve the breed" if you continue to breed dog aggressive dogs in a world (Legally and majority) that doesn't want dog aggressive dogs....it will be you that destroys the breed. Not those of use who want to see it excell in the multitood of other activites.

The poodle is DA, the fox terrier is DA, almost every terrier is DA.
Why do people continue to breed the DA dogs? Why not start with the poodles? That would be a start and would be a lot easier. When you get that perfected then move on to another breed.

[pancho]

This statement that makes no sense at all.

You breed a dog to be DA, put it in a pit with another dog that was bred to be DA, and then say it has a CHOICE?

Once again, a dog does not have the reasoning power to know what the reprocussions are of that "choice".
You would be very surprised. Very few of pit bulls are game. The majority will cur out. The dog does not have to study the problem and have meetings to decide the best exit policy. If they do not want to fight they will find an exit.

[pitbulliest]

I guess I should have been clearer..I appologize for that...after reading your post about DA poodles and terriers, I feel its my obligation to explain my point over:

When I said DA is a problem with the breed, I want to make it clear that I meant severe DA...not just occassional aggression towards the odd dog, or occassional growling/barking at a few dogs...by DA, I meant the type of aggression where the dog just can't be around any other dogs without causing those dogs/or itself harm...

I guess I wasn't on the same page as everyone else...

With that, I still maintain that breeders should take DA into strong account...its not a favorable trait in any breed, nor should it be.

[elegy]

like Amstaffer said, its destroying the breed...its causing many dog aggressive pit bulls to be euthanized in shelters across north america...yeah believe it or not, many shelters refuse to adopt out dogs that have DA, especially pits...and you sit there and say the elimination of DA has nothing to do with the future wellbeing of the breed? That alone is reason enough to give a hoot...

Don't act like you're the only one doing the breed a favor by preserving a characteristic that isn't even necessary anymore.

it isn't destroying the breed. what is destroying the breed is overbreeding, breeding with no thought at all to temper