When is a mutt no longer a mutt?

[cardinalfanUSA]

Ten years ago, if a golden retriever and a poodle had a litter of puppies, they'd be considered mutts, but now they're "goldendoodles". A bullmastiff is a bulldog/mastiff cross. So, when is a mutt no longer considered a mutt?

[zoe08]

They are still mutts. People just like to make up fancy names so they can convince people who dont know any better that it is a breed and sell them for bunches of money. But they are mutts, and most of us prefer the term mutt over "doodles" and what not.

[cardinalfanUSA]

All dogs come from a common ancestor. I believe I read that a Rottweiler is a combination of doberman, mastiff, and something else. Tosas have bloodhound in them. But noone ever calls a Rottweiler a mutt. So, at what point does a mutt become an actual breed?

[zoe08]

if you breed a dobe and a mastiff you have a mutt. but if you take the pups out of those littler that represent the traits you are trying to create a breed for and breed those, and then breed the best of those and so on until you have a standard. When there is a standard that you can expect when breeding, that is when you have a breed. But if you breed a Golden and a Poodle you cant guarantee a hypoallergenic dog, you cant predict what kind of coat it will have, etc. You need color, size, coat, temperament, etc standards before it is a breed.

[Psyfalcon]

To me, the dogs would need to breed true and create similar dogs without throwbacks to the original breeds. Many of the designer breeds (like the goldendoodle) are still first generation mixes while something like a bullmastiff, while once a mixed breed, has been bred only to bullmastiffs for a long time.

If I wanted a litter of goldendoodles, I would go get a poodle and a golden. If I wanted bullmastiffs, I would get a pair of bullmastiffs. Thats the difference to me.

As a semi- asside, I think that a standard would need to be written up. The bullmastiff wasnt created with a written standard, but the dog world doesnt seem to function well without one now.

[Kayla]

All breeds were mutts at one point until they became recognised by a kennel club and were only bred to focus on certain desiered traits, thats what selective breeding is.

Cheers
Kayla

[bubbatd]

Agree .... it takes years to create a new, standard breeding . So far I only see the Australian Labradoodle approaching this . Any first time breeding of 2 breeds is a mutt.

[Gempress]

A mutt is usually no longer considered a mutt when:

-There is a recognized standard. That means there are specific requirements for size, coat length, temperament, etc.

-The dogs have been breeding true for several generations (I think the AKC requires 5 or 6 generations). For example, if mommy and daddy labradoodle consistantly produce litters of puppies that all fit the labradoodle standard.

-And I believe that for formal recognition, the breed must have a parent club and following, something like "The Labradoodle Club of America." The club must have shows and maintain a registry of breeding dogs.

That's why the "doodle" breeds are still considered mutts (with the possible exception of the Australian labrodoodle). Most doodles still come from two parents of different breeds---like a breeding between a female golden retriever and a male poodle--not two doodle parents. There are also no written standards.

[oc_spirit]

To make a "purebred" you must breed true for at least 7 generation and keep going consistantly with a certain look and a certain temperment. I have a buddy in Brazil who is breeding a Bandogge which to him is the ultimate working dog for his ranch and he has been working at this for years. Recently (as in within the last few breedings) he has been breeding true consistantly so you could say he is on the verge of having a real "new breed" and he is VERY happy with what he has accomplished but if I have it right he is planning on outcrossing to another breed a couple more times yet.

[wolfsoul]

A bullmastiff is a bulldog/mastiff cross.

Actually, a bullmastiff is a real breed of dog -- nothing mixed in.

[Bahamutt99]

Yeah, I would say a mutt becomes a breed when they have recognition by a reputable registry (or at least their own parent club), and breed true.

[oc_spirit]

Actually, a bullmastiff is a real breed of dog -- nothing mixed in.

I think they meant that once upon a time the Bullmastiff was simply a mix of Bulldog and MAstiff ;) To be specific 40% Bulldog and 60% MAstiff although apparently there have been suggestions that Dogue de Bordeaux, Bull Terrier and Deutsche Dogge

[planet molosser]

Ten years ago, if a golden retriever and a poodle had a litter of puppies, they'd be considered mutts, but now they're "goldendoodles". A bullmastiff is a bulldog/mastiff cross. So, when is a mutt no longer considered a mutt?

They need to close the stud book and bitch book for not more dogs of other breeds and create a purebred golden doodle.

When they breed enough Golden Doodles to Golden Doodles for 3 generations they are then a Purebred _ but then they loose the DOODLE sensation.

I do think I read some where the people down under are breeding true.

If they create a new breed for a want into todays society for allergy sufferers
I dont have a problem with it as long as they are testing for disease ane temperament... And to create a new breed one needs to CULL and most modern people can not do that.. Where 100 years ago that was done all the time in the creation and study of new breeds. If the dog did not have the specific traits that the mixing was bred for it was cull or sent out to family or friends that did NOT breed based on their "WORD" which meant more back then.

But the think the designer breeds will go out as a fad once the market is filled over the top with backyard breeders and poorly bred dogs.

[LinkLinx]

We really don't need anymore new breeds though. :-D There's more than plenty!

[Kurby]

We really don't need anymore new breeds though. :-D There's more than plenty!

i agree!

[Zoom]

...when people can charge $2000 for them and get a spot on the Morning Show.

[planet molosser]

Even thou I agree we have allot of breeds. And NO need to make mutts for profit. However the reason we have these breeds we love so much is the "idea" of someone who took the idea and ran with it to make the breeds we love today.

We would not be the US of a of we were not founded on ideas and individual thougths.... And since the future of many of the PUREBRED dogs we have today are uncertain due to such severe inbreeding it is said many of the purebreds we love today will be EXTINCT in the future . And due to BSL some outlawed.

So if the educated NON live off profit minded people got to together to recreate a dying breed or a new one that was like in the old days created for a purpose I wont knock them....Many breeds today are petitioning AKC to Open the studs books to allow outcross of other breeds to save and help reduce health issues in their breeds...Or in the Chinook case the lack of gene variability so they have allowed outcrosses with specific regulations.

What the future holds ? who knows im not a mind reader but it does not look to good for many of the beloved breeds we have.

IM NOT for Designer breeds let that be clear see other threads. But I see a danger in the future where we may lose what we have.,

[mrose_s]

hmm. this is pretty interesting i always sorta wondered how mutss became breeds

[summitview]

So, at what point does a mutt become an actual breed?

When it breeds true, consistantly.

[oc_spirit]

Why breed a mix for a job when there already is a purebred for that job? Simple, some mixes do the job BETTER!!!

[squirtsmom]

I have a boxer/pitbull mix that my daughter bought at the flea market from a byb, she is 17 and naive, and didn't know better then. this dog is a mutt, but is more spoiled than my pure bred tiny toy poodle. Although she is not a pure bred dog, in my heart she is the best dog ever.

[bubbatd]

I'm with you Renee...... that guy on the Sunday Morning show a few months ago was disgusting !!!! Seemed to breed anything to everthing !!!

[ACDsandAussies4me]

(this is just a funny) When a dog can breed true then its a purebreed???? So if I breed my mutt to another mutt and it gives me more mutts does that mean its a purebreed mutt???? lol Will the AKC consider my puebreed mutts as a breed now?? Can I show with the big guys now??? Westminester here I come !!!! lol
BTW..I have ACDS and Aussies...No mixing going on here :)

[Psyfalcon]

You are going to need several generations to prove that it is going to breed true. After 100 years some breeds still throw some very odd puppies, so just a few generations is not enough. No one is saying that a goldendoodle x goldendoodle would be purebred (some puppies would still look like poodles, others goldens, and others goldendoodle). In 10 years you might have something approaching it though.

[chinchow]

The Labradoodle, though, has been around for a very long time. They STILL are not consistent. It not only takes time to get a consistent dog, but it takes more dedication than most people these days are willing to contribute. That is why these "new breeds" are so typey, there's no consistency at all. There's variations in every purebreed, but it's pretty predictable when done right.

[bubbatd]

I don't believe any Goldendoodle has reached a standard , but the Australian Labradoodle is nearing it . Practically every breed today began with a mixture . The Golden sure was !

[Dulce Pit Bull]

It if weren't for mutts, I wouldn't have my Dulce :)

Who cares if she has some Shar Pei in her? I love her no matter WHAT! :D

[Delisay]

(this is just a funny) When a dog can breed true then its a purebreed???? So if I breed my mutt to another mutt and it gives me more mutts does that mean its a purebreed mutt???? lol Will the AKC consider my puebreed mutts as a breed now?? Can I show with the big guys now???
Funny you should ask that! Some rare breed registries say "yes" about the AKC. Check out this Coton link, especially the telephone conversation and the diagram: http://netpet.batw.net/russell/akcfss.html

Extract: "...instituted by the AKC in 1995. The FSS--Foundation Stock Service--is the AKC's answer to unwilling breed takeovers. The AKC claims that the Foundation Stock Service "is provided by the AKC to help new breeds develop and establish breeding records."

...there are more than 14,500 Cotons on the European Continent. The CTCA has almost 600 Cotons in its registry with complete three-generation pedigrees. ...The Coton has been in North America since 1974... Why, then, do 11 of the [only] 15 AKC-FSS dogs have [no three generation pedigrees]?

According to an AKC spokesman, Cotons that are now called "Founding Stock" will become the basis for the AKC's Official Coton registry "some years from now." And, when the breed is recognized by the AKC, all those founding dogs who have incomplete or absent pedigrees will be "dropped from the AKC registry." ...the great grandchildren of these unpedigreed dogs will be considered full-blooded AKC Cotons, while their parent's, grandparents, and great-grandparents will be summarily removed from public view."


The plot thickens!! I know nothing about this myself to have an opinion BTW, but found it very interesting while researching Cotons.

Del.

[CanadianK9]

When does a mutt become a breed?

when losers quit randomly breeding them without any forethought, testing, evaluation, and the dog has been tried tested and true, and not sold for 5000 dollars in a ma and pa pet shop window.

[atldoglover]

When does a mutt become a breed?

when losers quit randomly breeding them without any forethought, testing, evaluation, and the dog has been tried tested and true, and not sold for 5000 dollars in a ma and pa pet shop window.

I agree. I think that there is a "push" for designer dog breeds, which is sad because sometimes two different breeds do not need to be breed (ie. large male, small female). "Designer Breeds" seem to be bred for money, not for the benefit of the breed. However, there are "mutts" that have been bred since the 50's and 60's in hopes of creating a new breed- for instance, cockapoo- not a "new" designer breed at all. The reason for creating this new breed? A close to "hypoallerginic dog" with fur, a small dog with great intelligence, great with kids (not that there aren't small dogs that don't fit that description). I know that I personally had a third generation cockapoo, and there is a standard trying to be created. My breeder did OFA and CERF testing and was very aware of bloodlines.

[BlackDog]

It becomes a breed when two of those dogs are bred together and produce the same characteristics the parents have every time. In other words, they produce consistently. This is what the breed standard is for. It establishes the look and temperament of what the breed is suppose to be. Once the mix produces those characteristics in its litters every time it is no longer a mix. It takes hundreds of years to produce this. That's why the breeds you see today have hundreds of years of history. That's how long it took to selective breed them. (Breed for the desired traits, throw out the non-desirable traits).

Goldendoodles are still a mix breed dog because they haven't been around very long, they don't have consistency, and their is a lot of myths floating around about them. Same goes with all the other designer mixes.

[Amstaffer]

All dogs come from a common ancestor. I believe I read that a Rottweiler is a combination of doberman, mastiff, and something else. Tosas have bloodhound in them. But noone ever calls a Rottweiler a mutt. So, at what point does a mutt become an actual breed?

The Rottie came first! (before the Dobe)

[PFC1]

They need to close the stud book and bitch book for not more dogs of other breeds and create a purebred golden doodle.

When they breed enough Golden Doodles to Golden Doodles for 3 generations they are then a Purebred _ but then they loose the DOODLE sensation.



Okay, why is it called a Golden-Doodle? I mean, specifically, where does the first letter D come from? There's no D in Golden Retriever, and Poodle only has one D in it. Shouldn't it be called a "Goldenoodle," or perhaps the more catchy, "Gold'noodle?" I'm just sayin'.