Labrador puppy just turned 8 weeks - HELP [Archive]

killerz298

10-24-2006, 02:50 PM

So I picked my little guy up last week and for the first two days he seemed to adjust very well. Not much crying, took to his crate perfectly, very minor nipping. Well he just turned 8 weeks yesterday and it is like someone flipped a switch and I really don't know what to do.

We have him isolated in the kitchen with doggy gates. I stay home with him all day and come in and out of the room to play with him. He has his toys with him and every hour or so he gets tired and takes a nap, for 2 days this was fine.

Well out of nowhere he seems to have gotten aggressive. When I try to play with him he will go right for my hand and nip or bite it. He started twitsting his head and growling when he does this with my finger still in his mouth. I tell him no bite or OUCH and give him a toy and he will chew it maybe for 5-10 secs then come back over to me where he will either snap at and bite my foot or he will bite my pant leg and growl and pull and twist. I unlock his jaws and tell him no bite and he will either go away or just go right into it again. He does this with my sweatshirt as well. (I don't play tug games with him at ANY time)

I try the no bite or ouch, I try turning my back to him and ignoring him which is impossible as he will then just attack my foot, and I leave the room for a little but when I come back it is the same thing.

What should I do to combat this? Is this normal behavior?

bumhouse

10-24-2006, 07:07 PM

killerz298

10-24-2006, 08:22 PM

Our puppies must be soul mates!!!

Please read the threads in the Puppy Forum - Having a Bad Day and Puppy Biting Leash for advice from others on dealing with this behavior. It is slowly but surely helping us.

I have heard of many pups like this since I started seeking help for these behaviors and everyone assured me this is normal puppy behavior, however, you do need to teach him it's not acceptable. I think reading those posts will help especially the ones from Doberluv who has some great reading suggestions....

Thanks for the reply I will look into those threads. He has really been a monster today as I want to play with him and tire him out but I can't because he keeps attacking my feet clothes and hands. I hope he shakes this nasty habit soon.

bubbatd

10-24-2006, 11:47 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh !!! Puppyhood !!! Maybe he didn't learn " quiet time " from his breeder ..

Doberluv

10-25-2006, 03:45 PM

An eight week old pup is not being aggressive. He's playing. He's pretending. LOL.

When he bites, end all playtime right then and there. Get up, walk away and ignore him. Try again in a couple of minutes, repeat as necessary. When he is gentle with your skin, reward him with a treat and continued, low key patting.
Be sure and give him a hard chew toy that he can teethe on and praise him for chewing on that. Show him what you mean.

MomOf7

10-25-2006, 05:11 PM

Doberluv

10-25-2006, 09:04 PM

killerz298

10-25-2006, 10:16 PM

Gagging a puppy just isn't very nice.:( You don't have to use aversives to train a puppy...Labrador or not. I've had Labs too. Why would you want to hurt, cause discomfort or frighten and possibly injure a little tiny puppy? This is an infant. You don't have to do anything physical. Simply make sure the puppy is not getting reinforced for this behavior. It will go away as he matures a little. Show him what you mean, what behavior gets him the good stuff. Give him an alternative to chew on. Be consistant. Reinforce good behavior.
Yeah I have been telling him no bite and giving him another toy. He chews it a little then goes right back after me. If he does it too much I have been either leaving the room (can't stand there and ignore him as he has been biting my feet) or putting him in his crate for 5 min time out. I have learned the look he gets when he is going to do it so I have been pretty good stopping it before he does it however when we are outside I have less control as we are running and playing and I am grabbing leaves etc out of his mouth.

At about what age should he be less mouthy if I am consistent with letting him know it is bad and his toys are good? At this point I can't even let my 9 year old niece play with him because he is too rough.

bubbatd

10-25-2006, 10:18 PM

Eight weeks is a touchy time ........ no rough play and a lot of down time !! That's why I posted " quiet time " above. I know a lot of people don't like the submissive on back treatment . I don't think it's good for dogs who are not used to it .... to them it's a threat . However , from day one I did this with pups to relax and gain comfort from gentle strokes ... this was " quiet time " .... soothing words and strokes and they would settle and even fall asleep . As to play ... I would have pups have their own play time . Plastic bottles with a rope , an empty pop can with a few rocks in it , anything to stimulate them . All pups will attack a trailing bathrobe etc. When my arms or ankles were attacked , I would yelp and subsitute . This too will pass !! Just remember .... don't give in to their mode of play !!!

killerz298

10-25-2006, 10:22 PM

I have been yelping, substituting, growling, grabbing scruff but he doesn't seem to care or he just does it more either in play or retaliation. He will roll himself over and lie on his back and want me to pet him, sometimes he is calm other times he is not. If I go to do it as a response to his biting he just squirms around snaping thinking I am playing.

MomOf7

10-25-2006, 10:23 PM

bumhouse

10-25-2006, 10:51 PM

It's just getting better for me at around 4 1/2 months. It has improved a lot the past week as we have been really consistent on time outs for biting, nipping, aggressive play for both the puppy and our children!!

He seems to want to be with us more now so the time outs really hit home. In fact, if he is really doing a lot of biting, and I put him in time out, he usually falls asleep which indicates to me that the biting had a lot to do with him trying to tell me he's tired and not knowing what to do about it. The biting also gets bad when the house is too chaotic - everyone rushing around, etc. I now know to anticipate this and put him away BEFORE it gets too crazy. I usually try to get him really tired right before the kids get home from school - a really crazy time in our house. This way he will need a nap when they are coming in and not mind when I crate him. Also, the crate is in the family room so he can still see all the activity, just not particpate in it. Colt will also jump up and bite me if I am sitting down and he needs to go out. He will go to the door first but if I miss it this is his way of telling me "You missed it, I need your attention".

I have found that over time I have gotten to know my puppy's cues for different things and he mine.

Tonight was the FIRST time Colt layed down next to me (after everyone else went to bed). It was wonderful and we both really enjoyed it. It was very calming for both of us - . You'll get there, hang on, it gets better, I promise.....

bubbatd

10-25-2006, 11:16 PM

Agree ! It takes time ....... hang in there !!

Doberluv

10-26-2006, 12:42 AM

mindi

10-26-2006, 12:52 AM

Hi now this is az nice story, I like it when people help people. Its just like when my Princess helps me, it feels good to be loved

mindi

10-26-2006, 01:14 AM

AHHHH EVIL LAB PUPPIES!! My specialty!!:D
Stick your fingers in his mouth so he gags. That usually works. Lab pups are pretty desensitized and like to test the water alot. I would just keep gaging the pup till he learns that its not fun to try and bite. When you do this though make sure to give him a command like No bite or even just no. Keep a toy in the other hand so that when he stops you have something else to offer him to chew on. Praise praise praise when he stops biting you and chews on his toy.

Lots and lots of exercise. A tired puppy is a good puppy. Take his favorite toy go to the hallway close all the doors and play fetch. Sit at the end of the hallway so he has to bring it back to you. Do this 3-5 times leave him wanting more. Get a pole with some feathers on the end of a string or small rope(like a fishing pole) and let him chase it around. Thats alot of fun for small pups.:D

You are too mean to puppies, Why would you hjrt the puppy? why does the puppy need your findgers in his mouth? I would kek you hard and have my therapy dog Princess talk too you. She does not like mean persons.I thought ths was a nice place to be, not a bad place to be.

I have my Princess my theraphy dog to help ,me with a better way of living, and we are best freinds. She helps me in me get into my wheel chair, and helps me a lot, she would not like people like you I know I don;t alredy

mrose_s

10-26-2006, 05:43 AM

it doesn't hurt them mindi. it just helps to show them that nothing good comes out of putting your hand in your mouth. more good come out of playing with a toy

mrose_s

10-26-2006, 05:47 AM

bumhouse

10-26-2006, 08:35 AM

Bumhouse, It sounds like you're handling things very wisely. You know how children get when they get overly tired. I think puppies get punch drunk too when they're overly tired. You're really being creative in your management of your pup. Way to go.

If you want him to stop jumping up and biting you, don't forget...if you respond the way he wants you to, (with attention, with letting him out) he'll learn that that is how to tell you. Try showing him an alternative way to tell you he has to go out.....maybe take him over by the door and ask him to sit. Then when he's "polite" let him out. You can even teach him other neat ways to tell you. You can teach him to "speak" = the door opening. Or some people hang a bell on the door and smear a tiny amount of peanut butter on it. He licks it off in one or two licks, bell rings, door opens.

It looks like you're seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. You're doing great.

Doberluv,

THANKS!! I am definitely seeing the light at the end of the tunnel!!

That is EXACTLY what I do when he jumps on me to go out. I take him to the door and get him really excited - "Do you want to go out?!!" Then he sits and we go out. I do not look at him when I get up to take him over. He wears a lead and I just pick it up and walk him over and then talk to him. It's been working. Of course, it's my fault when I miss the cue the first time anyway so I try not to make too big of a deal out of it. I thought about the bell thing but I have heard some stories about dogs that "ring" the bells just to get attention and then they are in and out, in and out. Also, I don't want Colt to be TOO vocal as Collies have a tendency to bark A LOT!! It's going well - housetraining was the easiest task for me so far believe it or not. He goes to the door and whines - that's good enough for me, LOL.

I see a huge difference in Colt this week!!! I hope I can pass along some of the things that helped me to others with young pups now.

killerz298

10-26-2006, 10:15 AM

So saying ouch, no, pulling scruff or collar either has no effect or he just does it more. I am substituting toys for my feet/shoes/hand/pants and he will bite it for maybe a min and then he goes right back to the shoe or pants. I guess isolation is my only option? I have been doing this the past day but that seems ineffective as well. I go to play with him or I am just walking around in the kitchen, he goes to bite my pants/shoes, I tell him no bite and he keeps doing it so I tell him no bite and I storm out of the room. I come back 2 mins later and it is the same thing. Should I really be walking in and out of the room every 2 mins? Will this be effective? I know he does want to play because when I leave the room he usually sits by the gate and waits for me to come back.

Doberluv

10-26-2006, 11:32 AM

Killerz, he hasn't made the association yet....that biting equals end of playtime. You don't even have to leave the room. Walk away and fold your arms, stare at the ceiling....LOL. Let him know that you won't interact with him the second his teeth hurt your skin. A crying out in pain just before you ignore him works with some dogs. Some think you're playing. Then that's no good. Reaching out with your hands, as in touching him can look like more play...not always as punishment. If you are very consistant, over time, he'll learn. Puppies don't learn how to be adults over night. These things take time. Their desire to chew, gnaw, bite is very strong. Its what they do.

I prefer to not use aversives like pain, fear, discomfort because with my puppies, I like to teach them bite inhibition, not that putting their mouth on me is altogher a bad thing. If my puppies mouth on my hand very gently, I'll continue to pat them or play softly. If their teeth come even close to causing me the slightest discomfort, I abruptly end the attention or playtime. The reason for this is that it works out with dogs.... so that in the future if a dog does bite, he learns to regulate the strength of his bite and he's less apt to bite hard. Later, I make it so the dog doesn't mouth my hand unless I invite him to. Then it must be a gentle game...ever so gentle. Then it stops when I say, "enough."

Doberluv

10-26-2006, 12:34 PM

Sigh. We just have different ways of doing things sometimes. Its all good. I appreciate your passion.
I have not ever had a puppy forever changed or dramatically different because of it. Actually never had one be different in any way other then they learned not to bite my fingers

It's not about passion or emotion. My dogs have not been forever changed or dramatically different either. And they learned to stop biting my fingers too. And I didn't need aversives to teach them. I didn't have to cause them to gag. That is not a pleasant feeling and I think it has the potential to erode a little bit of trust a dog has in his owner. Some dogs are more sensative and can perceive their owners hands as a threat when they do something like that. Since there are ways to teach a dog things without physical force which are very effective, which do not have the possibility of causing defensiveness, and as a byproduct, aggression or fear, that is what (and why) I advise people who are asking. A good leader (in the wild as well as not in the wild) uses psychological manipulation in a positive way rather than physical aversives. A leader controls resources. That is my reasoning, not passion.

Kmh1

10-26-2006, 01:17 PM

I know this is probably going to sound strange--but 12 years ago when I got my parent's lab as an 8 week old pup--he of course was the typical mouthy lab pup---I didn't know much then but did some of the things mentioned on this thread--I also am not a fan of anything aversive and have learned a lot since then--but one thing I tried a time or two that seemed to help is I coated my hands with bitter apple spray--on this particular pup it worked really well--he would go to grab my hand and then get this funny look on face. I know it aversive because of the bad taste--but it did help keep his mouth off of me.. Now a few years later I tried this on my ACD--didn't work much at all. Just remember if you try this to wash your hands right after you put the pup away--bitterapple is the nastiest tasting stuff imaginable!!!LOL

MomOf7

10-26-2006, 03:27 PM

It's not about passion or emotion. My dogs have not been forever changed or dramatically different either. And they learned to stop biting my fingers too. And I didn't need aversives to teach them. I didn't have to cause them to gag. That is not a pleasant feeling and I think it has the potential to erode a little bit of trust a dog has in his owner. Some dogs are more sensative and can perceive their owners hands as a threat when they do something like that. Since there are ways to teach a dog things without physical force which are very effective, which do not have the possibility of causing defensiveness, and as a byproduct, aggression or fear, that is what (and why) I advise people who are asking. A good leader (in the wild as well as not in the wild) uses psychological manipulation in a positive way rather than physical aversives. A leader controls resources. That is my reasoning, not passion.
Maybe its possible to offer advise without pointing out other types of training as wrong or unpleasurable. Variety is the spice of life after all. Not everyone does things your way and I can accept the fact not everyone does things my way. Let the poster choose which way works best for them.
I also wanted to refer you here.
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30198

killerz298

10-26-2006, 03:44 PM

Well today I sat on the floor with him and played and he started off snaping and biting as usual. I yelped ouch and STORMED out of the room. Waiting 2 mins and came back. This went on for about 25-30 mins and by the end he would go to bite my hand, stop himself and either lick it or rub it with his nose. He did test the waters a little bit with some nips and he put my entire hand in his mouth but didn't bite down and then looked at me so I said good boy. I think he is starting to figure out that biting me = alone time for him.

As for not having to leave the room, if I just put my back to him and ignore him, he is a fiend on my shoes and pant legs (well not my shoes any more since I doused them in bitter spray). Should I just let him pull the crap out of my pant leg and not respond or should I completely leave the room like I have been?

Doberluv

10-26-2006, 03:52 PM

Maybe its possible to offer advise without pointing out other types of training as wrong or unpleasurable.

Even if it's my opinion that something is wrong or unpleasurable? If other types of training are opposite from what I think is the best way, (also not just my opinion but standard practice among many behaviorists and scientists) then pointing them out as being opposite enables people to see what's going on in both instances.

If I think something is dangerous, say.....letting a dog eat chocolate, I won't just be saying what things I think are safe for eating. I will say that it's been found that chocolate is toxic to dogs. If I've found in my education and experience that a lot of aversives may be "toxic" to dogs, I feel it my duty to explain my conclusions or my opinion about the negative effects of aversives as well as discussing the many virtures of not using aversives.

As far as the forum goes, direct attacks or insults, flaming, baiting of other members is not allowed. However, stating one's opinion about various training methods is allowed and part of what makes a forum.

I feel, from my perspective that it is important to spread the word that there are ways of training dogs, that they're used all the time all over the place, which do not include the use of aversives or harsh punishment. While I don't see what you're doing as abusive, I know there is a way to stop puppy biting without pushing my fingers into the throat of an 8 week old puppy to inhibit biting by causing a gag reflex. My opinion is that it is unnecessary and unpleasant. I have a right to state my opinion, as far as I know. So do you. So does everyone.

Doberluv

10-26-2006, 03:57 PM

Killerz, it sounds like it's starting to pay off. Keep up the good work. I suppose I would at that point...when he's going for the shoes keep on doing what you're doing....leave the area or put the puppy calmly (non-punishingly) into his crate for a few minutes of alone time. Just to show him that the social time ends everytime he bites at you. Try again in just a couple minutes. 5 minutes for a pup is an eternity. Try, before he has a chance to go for your pants or shoes, handing him a really neat chew toy. In other words, show him an alternative and praise him or chewing that. You might even put a very, very thin little spreading of peanut butter on the toy. Do you have a little puppy Kong toy? You can put yogart in it and freeze it overnight. That makes a great chew toy for teething....cold, tasty....keeps 'em busy. Don't forget....be consistant, just like you're doing. He'll repeat what works for him and stop doing what doesn't work for him.

Spiritus

10-27-2006, 01:27 AM

Puppies at this age need repetition, repetition, and more repetition. I too do not recommend gagging a baby. At 8 weeks dogs are infants, REALLY infants, like newborn babies. Their attention span is about 3.5 seconds, more or less. They will not remember something you teach them 5 seconds ago, let alone 5 minutes.

Labs can be mouthy puppies. They are gun dogs designed to carry carcasses of animals in their mouths. Often times they are not happy unless they do have something in their mouths, even as adults. To teach a baby not to bite, I recommend sitting on the floor with him and playing with him. When he bites at the hands, YELP sharply like a puppy, pull your hands close to you - in effect, remove the toy, which in this case is your hands. You can replace your hands with something appropriate, like a soft toy. If he bites at your clothing, a quick AH-AH is usually enough to interrupt the behavior long enough to give him a toy. The SECOND the toy goes into the mouth, tell him he's a good dog. Wiggle the toy around, encourage him to mouth it more. If he goes for the hands again, repeat. Again, and again, and again, and again. By about 14 weeks of age, with consistancy, the pup should know that hands/clothing is not for chewing, and toys are.

Herschel

10-27-2006, 10:37 AM

Your puppy is biting you because he wants to play and he thinks biting is a game. Anything that you do to give him attention is a reinforcement.

Yelping--what happens when a 5 year old boy chases a 5 year old girl and grabs her hair? She screams and he laughs. It's all part of the game.

Pulling scruff--He's being rough with you, you're being rough with him. Now everyone is playing the game!

Pulling the collar--Same as pulling the scruff, but some dogs react VERY adversely to this.

Substituting toy: The dog bites, you give him a toy. It's like giving that 5 year old boy a cookie for pulling the girl's hair.

Your punishments seem ineffective, as well.

Locking him in his crate: If you ever want to crate train your dog (it's a great tool to have, even with older dogs), using the crate as punishment will never get you there.

2 minute isolation: It's almost like hide and seek. The dog bites, you disappear, then you come back for more playing (biting).

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some dogs are nippier than others. Ours was VERY nippy and didn't really stop until 5 months. We used "Ow!" very successfully, but our friends enjoyed getting him riled up so that slowed our teaching down.

I would suggest that you make your isolation longer. Maybe 10 minutes or so. 2 minutes obviously isn't doing the trick.

This is natural behavior for a puppy--and you need to help him grow out of it. It's nerve wracking--I even nipped my puppy's paw back once because I was so sick of being attacked. Haha. He was so surprised. (I don't recommend that as a teaching aid, though)

Spiritus

10-27-2006, 12:36 PM

"Yelping--what happens when a 5 year old boy chases a 5 year old girl and grabs her hair? She screams and he laughs. It's all part of the game."

Dogs are not children. Yes, in the case of children, the yelping encourages the game. In dogs, they yelp at each other when the bites get too hard, and play stops.

"Pulling scruff--He's being rough with you, you're being rough with him. Now everyone is playing the game!"

I agree.

"Pulling the collar--Same as pulling the scruff, but some dogs react VERY adversely to this."

Again, I agree.

"Substituting toy: The dog bites, you give him a toy. It's like giving that 5 year old boy a cookie for pulling the girl's hair."

Um, no. How do dogs learn what is appropriate to chew on if we don't show them? No, my skin is NOT to be chewed on, but this toy IS to be chewed on. Not only do dogs need to be taught what is not acceptable, they need to be shown what IS acceptable. If we want to equate this to children, a toddler grabs a crystal knick/knack off a table. Adult takes the crystal, and gives them something that IS okay to play with.

"Your punishments seem ineffective, as well."

I don't see an 8 week old's behavior of nipping deserving of actual "punishment". I believe that "punishment" should not be brought in until the dog KNOWS the desired/correct behavior. In the case of an 8 week old puppy biting, the dog does not KNOW that the behavior is not desired or incorrect. All they know is that everything goes into the mouth. Actually taking the time to TEACH the dog that no, not everything goes into the mouth, will, in my opinion, make a better dog. Punishment brought in at 8 weeks will only teach the puppy that something unpleasant is associated with it's person. Do we really want to teach them that? We want our experiences with our dogs to be positive at this stage of the game. Punishment, if you must use it, comes later....

showpug

10-27-2006, 01:41 PM

Your puppy is just that, a PUPPY!!! I think we expect too much from puppies too soon. Personally, I don't think puppies should leave their breeders until 10 weeks, but that is a whole other thread. Puppies grow out of nipping, plain and simple. It's a time thing. Honestly, do you ever see adult dogs acting like puppies in this way? I sure don't. I agree that it is a good opportunity to guide your pup towards a positive behavior, but the truth is, he will grow out of this mischief, it's just part of puppyhood. I think it's easy to lose patience with our puppies, but that is the main thing you need. Pretty soon he'll be all grown up and you will miss this time. Cut the little bugger some slack and enjoy him :)

Chul3l3ies1126

10-27-2006, 04:49 PM

LOL, i think it is funny that some of you think that sticking your fingers in thier mouth hurts them. Its just a way to stop what they are doing. I have raised all my dogs from puppyhood and did that with all of them. I have 2 friends that are veterinarians, and the vet that i go to has told me it is perfectly fine to do that. No harm doing. Just dont stick them all the way down, now that's harmful... but just doing it to make them stop chewing on you is not. Works wonders for me, and others I know, they just get up and want to play with you some other way thats all.

Spiritus

10-27-2006, 05:54 PM

I'm not saying it hurts, I am just saying it's unpleasant, and why would anyone want to do something unpleasant to an infant? I just don't understand. Your way might work, but other ways work just as well, without being unpleasant. I want my puppy's experiences to be pleasant as a baby.

Chul3l3ies1126

10-27-2006, 06:20 PM

Thats totally fine, hehe, people think differently. Its just like someone saying "I yell at my kid until he listens, or I punish him..." People have different opinions, although I would never hit my kids or pups, that's just wrong. But putting your fingers in their mouth is not harmful or bad at all, the more unpleasant situation would be having them chew on you until your hand bled. And to me, my pups are the happiest pups in the world, I've kept everything as pleasant as can be thank you... It's also like saying, no i would never pull my dog to the ground and hold him at bay by his neck!!! In many cases, i've had to do that with friends dogs when they are not trained. It doesnt hurt them, it just shows who is the dominant one in the picture. That's nature for them.... But what do I know... I'm mean and make my pups lives "unpleasant."

Herschel

10-28-2006, 01:43 AM

Dogs are not children. Yes, in the case of children, the yelping encourages the game. In dogs, they yelp at each other when the bites get too hard, and play stops.

Exactly. The play stops. If you yelp and create a commotion, for some dogs that is reinforcing the behavior because it creates a response. The original poster already noted that "yelping" or saying "ouch" isn't working for him.

Um, no. How do dogs learn what is appropriate to chew on if we don't show them? No, my skin is NOT to be chewed on, but this toy IS to be chewed on. Not only do dogs need to be taught what is not acceptable, they need to be shown what IS acceptable. If we want to equate this to children, a toddler grabs a crystal knick/knack off a table. Adult takes the crystal, and gives them something that IS okay to play with.

If a child grabs a glass vase off of a table and is about to smash it, giving a child a GI Joe while he is holding the glass doesn't seem very smart. He's still going to smash the vase. It makes more sense to me to first remove the glass vase from the child, then offer the GI Joe after the vase isn't an issue.

I don't see an 8 week old's behavior of nipping deserving of actual "punishment". I believe that "punishment" should not be brought in until the dog KNOWS the desired/correct behavior. In the case of an 8 week old puppy biting, the dog does not KNOW that the behavior is not desired or incorrect. All they know is that everything goes into the mouth. Actually taking the time to TEACH the dog that no, not everything goes into the mouth, will, in my opinion, make a better dog. Punishment brought in at 8 weeks will only teach the puppy that something unpleasant is associated with it's person. Do we really want to teach them that? We want our experiences with our dogs to be positive at this stage of the game. Punishment, if you must use it, comes later....

Perhaps I should have specified negative punishment to make myself more clear. (The removal of something appealing) When puppies are with their littermates, they learn not to bite because they are no longer played with if they nip. All I've said is that the dog should be left alone for more than 2 minutes to make it clear that it isn't a fun game for the person. I'm not entirely sure why a dog would think that a person is unpleasant if they leave the room--could you please elaborate?

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 11:29 AM

Herschel, when I mentioned putting a pup in a crate when he absolutely can't settle down and the ignoring isn't working, the dog is chasing the owner around, biting his ankles, I was not talking about using the crate as punishment. That would indeed be a mistake. (technically, this would be negative reinforcment....the socializing, the good thing ends) I never put my pups in a crate in anger or with any kind of sterness and don't advise it for anyone. Crates should not be associated with a rotten time or fear. If a pup hates his crate, that would need to be handled differently. Sometimes puppies get like little toddlers when they're overly stimulated...sort of what I call "punch drunk." They can't settle down. Their little nervous systems aren't quite in sync yet.

I sometimes would use the crate so the pup could get away from it all, have some walls around him away from all the comotion. I would put the pup in with a pleasant sing songy voice, "OK...time to go to bed" type thing. The pup would have toys in there and he was able to collect himself.

My puppies got so they voluntarily used their crates whenever they got to a point where they needed something to help them settle down. I left the doors open. They loved their crates. My Chi's still do. My Doberman is too big for a crate but he too use to go right in when he needed help to calm down.

As far as the quotes by Spiritus, I don't see where you two are disagreeing all that much. Yes, it's standard practice to remove your hands which are being bitten and replace with a toy that the pup is allowed to chew on. And I agree with you that with some dogs, maybe pups who aren't too sensative, yelping can be seen as play, as you joining in and so that becomes a reinforcer. And they can get more hyped up than they already are. But with some dogs, it startles them, they recognize it as the owner having pain from their biting and they do stop. So, it is always sort of an experiment. Yelping like I'm in pain has worked with my Dobe for taking treats from my hand too roughly and it's also worked with my son's dog, Toke. They would back off and try again, more gently the next try. So, again....it's something which isn't always the same.

When you hear or learn something such as "don't use a crate for punishment," or "ignore any bad behavior" (that is not always the cure if the reinforcement has nothing to do with your attention) it's always good, IMO to not learn things by rote but to use judgement and imagination with each situation or dog. Sometimes something which seems so standard still needs to be fine tuned or sometimes adusted a little bit for the individual dog or situation.

LOL, i think it is funny that some of you think that sticking your fingers in thier mouth hurts them.

It may or may not hurt them, but it is intrusive. With a sensative pup, it can be perceived as a threat, an attack. It is not natural for a puppy to have a human's fingers deep into their mouth, gagging them. It can be confusing to a puppy and cause bewilderment and distrust. If a pup is continually put on the defensive, it can develop aggression problems. There are tough pups and there are very sensative pups and everything inbetween. It's not a great idea to use aversives such as this on a dog, especially a tiny baby. It is not necessary.

It's not only some of us who think this way, but pretty much the whole community of behaviorists and trainers who utilize the science of learning behavior with their dogs. There's a lot of research out there and the reasons for not using aversives a lot and especially with a young pup are well documented. It is shown that positive reinforcement, using motivation and reward rather than harsh aversives is more effective in teaching a dog, as well as maintaining the dog's psychological well being. So, again...it's not just some of our opinions. It is the opinion of a vast number of educated animal behaviorists and scientists who deal with canine behavior.

There is no logical reason to use harshness of any kind on an 8 week old puppy, especially when there are viable alternatives for teaching.

BTW.....this has been said before, but I'll say it again: Vets know medicine. They do not all know about behavior.

Spiritus

10-28-2006, 12:06 PM

Herschel, I don't really see us as disagreeing either - sorry if it seemed that way.

About the quote you wrote about my crystal example, I did say "Adult takes the crystal, and gives them something that IS okay to play with." Same thing you said :)

All I've said is that the dog should be left alone for more than 2 minutes to make it clear that it isn't a fun game for the person. I'm not entirely sure why a dog would think that a person is unpleasant if they leave the room--could you please elaborate?

I didn't say that this was unpleasant, at least I didn't mean to refer to this. I was referring to fingers in the mouth. But, about this, I can see MORE than 2 minutes working if the dog is really hyped up and needs time to settle, but otherwise, even 2 minutes seems long to me for an 8 week old puppy. Dog's don't have the same sense of time that we do. All they know is that they are alone. 2 minutes, 10 minutes, 2 hours - all they know by the end of that timeframe is that you have returned. I can go outside for five minutes, and when I return, still get the same "MOM'S HOME" response from my dogs as if I was gone five hours. They just don't get "time". Dog's live in the moment. One moment you are there and playing, the next moment your are not, the next moment you are back and they are THRILLED. Those moments can be minutes or hours, the response will still be the same.

With the short puppy attention span that comes with the age of 8 weeks, IMO, leaving the room for 10 seconds, then returning, then leaving again if they are still too hyped up would be more effective than putting a longer time frame in there. The repetition done in very short incriments would be more effective than putting longer time in there, because the more time you are gone, the more THRILLED they will be that you returned. If you are leaving the area to teach the dog that it's behavior is what is causing you to leave, then returning in very short incriments would be the only way for the pup to associate that your leaving is directly related to their actions. 2 minutes or 10 minutes, is IMO, too long for the pup to remember what was happening 2-10 minutes ago, and to associate that their behavior way back in time (to the dog) was what made you leave in the first place. If you left and returned in 10-20 second intervals, and left and returned, and left and returned, all in short incriments, I think that this would be way more effective than adding the time in there.

Because of their short attention spans, it is very easy to interrupt behavior and redirect that behavior. I've found that this is most effective to teach a dog that they must stop the behavior. And as I said in my first post in this thread, repetition is the key. You must be willing to outlast your puppy. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Also, small successes should be noticed. Let's, for example, use the leaving the room method. Leave for 10 seconds, return, if "bad" behavior resumes immediately, leave for 10 seconds, return, repeat, until the one time you do return the room, the puppy, instead of jumping all over you chooses to sit and look at you for a moment to see if you are just going to leave again, PRAISE the puppy. Yes, the praising the puppy might get the behavior going again, and if it does, leave for 10 seconds, return, leave, return, leave return. Again, when the pup sits and looks at you to see if you are going to leave again, praise. Play gets rough, repeat. It may seem to be taking forever for us, and for some dogs, it might take seemingly forever, but they WILL get it.

But then, after a nap, puppy gets all hyper and biting-playful again, go back to the leave for 10 seconds, return, leave, return. You will likely notice that the puppy "get's it" a bit sooner than it did the first time. They don't have the memory that we have, or even the memory that their older counterparts have. It's because at this age they are like a 2 year old child in a toy store - what's that, oh, I LIKE that, oh but look at that, and that, and THAT... all over the place. It's because really and truly their little brains are just going and going and going.

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 12:40 PM

I agree with you Spiritus. More than 2 minutes is an eternity to a puppy. And the more times you get to reinforce something, the better.

If I ever put my pup in the crate for quiet time when he was particularily crazed, ("Okey dokey, it's nap time")it was to prevent me from killing him, or prevent me from taking up a drinking habit, not to be teaching him anything. That was done at other times.

Spiritus

10-28-2006, 01:14 PM

If I ever put my pup in the crate for quiet time when he was particularily crazed, ("Okey dokey, it's nap time")it was to prevent me from killing him, or prevent me from taking up a drinking habit, not to be teaching him anything.

Oh, I have soooo been there, done that! LOL. Sometimes it would be crate the puppy THEN have a drink! :D :eek:

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 01:37 PM

Sometimes it would be crate the puppy THEN have a drink!

LOL. Yes, especially when it's a Doberman puppy. It was a cake walk with the Chihuahuas and even the dog before them, my Lab....even my GSDs before my Lab. LOL. I took this Dobe on longer and harder off leash hikes than is ever advisable for their bones and joints. If I didn't, he'd literally be bouncing off the walls like a crack addict. This was at about 3 or 4 months of age. (I forget already...must have blocked that out of my mind) After a few more months, he finally wasn't such a spazz.

killerz298

10-28-2006, 03:09 PM

Unfortunately he completely ignores a yelp or a strong NO like it never even happened. What happens usually is I will grab a toy and sit on the floor with him. He will immediately climb up into my lap. Then I hand him the toy to chew and start petting him and saying good boy. After a little while he will stop chewing the toy and either start sniffing and nipping my shirt, pants, or shoes, or he will start nipping at my hands. I yelp and/or tell him NO and then he will either ignore me completely or stop for a second and then get "mad" and do it even harder. He gets this look in his eyes and he stalks my hand for about 5 seconds standing very still and watching it and then he jumps at it. I substitute the toy over and over and over but he will bite it for maybe a minute then go back to the same old routine. Sometimes leaving the room works (minimum of 3-4 times before he mouths me gently), other times it doesn't (as he will still bite my clothes and shoes), but just ignoring him while in the room absolutely doesn't work because he attacks my shoes and pants.

It seems any type of NO command is lost on him as he seems to get more "excited" when I do that. He also gets more excited or mad when I try to release his jaws when he is clamped on my pants. After I do this he will then put his ass in the air and jump snap at my hand.

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 03:40 PM

You have to understand that this is normal puppy behavior. Puppies can play rough and pretend to be "killing" prey. This is the way they're designed to be able to practice and learn how to kill prey for survival. It's an instinct leftover from their wild ancestors. At this stage, it's all play, "make believe" stuff. He's not mad at you.

Another thing to understand is that dogs don't understand the way we live in our houses. They have to be taught as they mature. They don't know what we mean at first when we say "no" or many of the kinds of communications we use. They don't understand English the way we do, there's no logic or figuring something out in their minds. Their learning happens because there is a condition and response, over and over.

They're guessing for a long time. The ONLY thing that makes them stop guessing is repitition and being reinforced for a behavior over and over. If you try one thing for a while, then try something else for a while, then another thing, of course it isn't going to work because the dog hasn't left the guessing stage and gone into the repitition of a behavior because there hasn't been an ample history of reinforcment. He's confused.

If a dog stares at you while you're eating something, he is not working it all out in his mind logically.... he's not thinking, "gee, if I look hungry enough, maybe I'll get some food." He would lie in a bathtub with his legs crossed and give a heavy sigh if that gave him food. Dogs do what works. If it works to keep nipping you, he will keep nipping you. You need to make it so it doesn't work. You can do this without harsh punishments.

Let's say (to take Jean Donaldson's example:) you are living on another plannet with some aliens. They're nice enough to you most of the time. Neither one of you understands the other's language or ways. They go to work and you're left in their home. You watch videos and eat pizza and go to the bathroom in these white porcelin bowls which even flush. It's all great to you. But when they come home, they babble something to you angrily. You have no idea what they mean but you know they are trying to tell you something. When you're finishing up your pizza, they appear to be scolding you but you can't figure out why. When you use the porcelin bowls to go to the bathroom, they babble at you loudly and you still don't know what you've done which is making them act this way. It's absolutely normal for you to eat pizza, go to the bathroom in porcelin bowls and watch videos. It's fun and harmless according to your ways. But little do you know that this is very unacceptable to them. You are guessing what it is that they're trying to tell you, what behavior you're doing that they are babbling and yelling about. You're guessing.

Your puppy is nipping you, but he's also doing other things; he may be vocalizing, wagging his tail, moving his legs, turning his head. Your puppy is guessing which, out of all the behaviors he may be doing is the one you are talking about if he's even thinking that way at all. And these normal puppy behaviors being abnormal to you doesn't even cross your puppy's mind. They're not complex enough to think all that through. Until the puppy has had a long time of consistant, repeated reinforcement, he is still guessing.

Skipping from one tactic to another does not enable him to have a steady supply of reinforcment for a particular behavior. The possibility of communication is lost every time you change tacts.

Remove the reinforcer for his nipping and biting your clothes. The reinforcer is your presence, your clotes, your socializing, your attention, your looking at him, speaking to him, touching him, just being there. As I explained before, remove the payoff for behavior you do not want and be consistant, not for a week or two but for as long as it takes.

If he bites and it hurts, hand him a suitable chew toy as an alternative, get up promptly and leave the area for a few minutes. That's all you have to do. You don't have to scold, yell, say, "no," shove your fingers down his throat. Unwanted behavior will extinguish if the payoff is not there. It won't happen over night, especially with a nipping, rambunctious puppy. It can take months.

killerz298

10-28-2006, 09:35 PM

While I believe that getting up and leaving the room is what it will really come down to in the end, isn't it good to have a "no" or "stop" command which the puppy/dog will know when it is said to end whatever it is doing? Will saying no, and then leaving the room achieve such a result?

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 10:13 PM

I recommend you read the books, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, The Power of Positive Training by Pat Miller, Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor. Another good one is The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. There are some other good ones: Raising a Puppy you can live with....forget the author. I highly recommend you read at least Culture Clash. It would be most helpful and it's very good. These are books written by real scientists and trainers, PhD's......people who really really know dogs.

bubbatd

10-28-2006, 10:14 PM

Ah sweet puppyhood !! Loved it !!! Had a litter that was 8 weeks at Christmas , but I told everyone to pick up after Christmas . Well , we got snowed in , so for another week we had 7 puppers running around and having a ball !! Sure , they could have been kept in their whelping area , but this was part of their learning time . They were in and out with us .... time outs for naps in their pen and fed in the area. All were housebroken by the time they went home . One stayed " home " , my Bushwhacker !

Doberluv

10-28-2006, 10:26 PM

Lucky puppy buyers! You really gave them a wonderful, nurtuing start.

killerz298

10-29-2006, 06:05 AM

Doberluv

10-29-2006, 09:47 AM

Oh good, I'm glad you're reading! Saying no for this particular activity should not be necessary. You never want him to sink his teeth into you so you won't want to have to tell him, "no." He might get so he needs to hear "No" in order to stop. And like I said, for now, speaking to him is giving attention. So, it's best to show him that when he is playing gently and not biting, you'll stick around and play with him. The biting behavior will fade away when it is not reinforced.

Saying "no" while the dog is engaged in a behavior may make him associate "no" with doing the behavior. So "no," if it doesn't stop the behavior can be construed as a command to do the behavior. You always want to pair a command with the act of doing the behavior you want at first until it is learned. (Remember, dogs don't understand English the way we do) They make associations. Something bad, an aversive needs to accompany "no" for them to know what is no. :lol-sign: That's at first until they make the association.

I save "no" for really important things so the dog doesn't get so used to hearing it all the time and tuning me out. If I want my dog not to get some item that he's about to get, I use, "leave it" which means not to get into that thing. I actively teach him that. Somewhere if you do a search here on top of the page, you'll find something I typed (long) on how to teach Leave it by using several objects laid out on the floor.

If my dogs are playing too rough in the house, I tell them "settle." That's something I actively show them what I mean....give them an alternative behavior and distract them away from rough housing.

If they bark too much, I use, "enough." That means that barking is not a no no so I don't want to punish the barking. I want them to bark when someone is coming up the driveway to alert me. So, I can't tell them "no" about that. There's an exercise to teach "enough" too. And that can be applied to other things which are not a no no all the time, like rough housing, but they learn that you want them to stop for now. You've had enough.

"No," I use sometimes for things which are really awful or dangerous and I need them to learn that it's never OK. But it really is best to show the dog what it is he CAN do instead. It helps to balance not doing something with doing something else instead. One behavior (one you like) replaces the one you don't. That gets reinforced and the other fades away. If only the bad thing gets reinforced by the environment or by the dog self rewarding, then that behavior will be repeated. So it's good to show a contrast between the no no and the behavior you do want instead and reinforce that.

When my niece's dog lifted his leg in my house on a chair, I really let him have it. "NO!!!!!!" And I marched him outside quickly, showed him a Cedar tree and told him to "go pee pee." There are a few instances when I will use a strong verbal punishment and that is one of them. He hadn't been taught and it probably wasn't fair and he probably was shocked that I was so stern, but I just wasn't going to mess around and I couldn't have spent the time with him that would be needed to make him into the kind of dog who just wouldn't do that. My dogs, fortunately have never lifted their legs in the house. But I don't like to have to be telling my dogs, "no" all the time or be harsh too much. It's not good.

I know this guy who tells his dog, in a gruff voice, "no" for everything under the sun. He gives no direction, doesn't show the dog anything....just says, "no" about every behavior he doesn't want which the dog has not learned otherwise...has not been taught. The dog is very submissive and rather shut down. I do not ever want to do that to a dog. It's just not necessary to get the desired behavior.

Anyhow, those books would really be beneficial, would help you so much. I love Culture Clash. It's my all time fav. I really wish I had read it a long time ago.

doberkim

10-29-2006, 04:19 PM

MomOf7

10-29-2006, 05:04 PM

How much activity is this dog getting and how much attention? one of the posts says he is stuck in the kitchen while you are home and you go to check on him every hour - so does he spend the vasty majority of his time in there without someone to interact with? if so, of COURSE he is overstimulated and excessive in his greeting when you come to be with him -

this also sounds like the dog needs a lot more CONSTANT stimulation for periods of time - interactive toys, games, treats, and walks walks walks!

I agree with you on this.
One great way to have fun is playing fetch. Close the doors in your hallway and from the end of the hallway blocking him in throw his favorite toy. If he seems uninterested juggle it around and drag it on the floor. Get him excited about the toy. Then toss it and get really excited and call him back. This is the beginings to retrieval training. Retrieving is great exercise for your dog. A pup of mine at 8 weeks old was already retrieving live pigeons at 80 yards away. Guess what I am trying to say is work at your pups level. Dont expect too much and encourage learning. ABOVE ALL a tired puppy is a good puppy.:)

Chul3l3ies1126

10-29-2006, 07:04 PM

It may or may not hurt them, but it is intrusive. With a sensative pup, it can be perceived as a threat, an attack. It is not natural for a puppy to have a human's fingers deep into their mouth, gagging them. It can be confusing to a puppy and cause bewilderment and distrust. If a pup is continually put on the defensive, it can develop aggression problems. There are tough pups and there are very sensative pups and everything inbetween. It's not a great idea to use aversives such as this on a dog, especially a tiny baby. It is not necessary.

It's not only some of us who think this way, but pretty much the whole community of behaviorists and trainers who utilize the science of learning behavior with their dogs. There's a lot of research out there and the reasons for not using aversives a lot and especially with a young pup are well documented. It is shown that positive reinforcement, using motivation and reward rather than harsh aversives is more effective in teaching a dog, as well as maintaining the dog's psychological well being. So, again...it's not just some of our opinions. It is the opinion of a vast number of educated animal behaviorists and scientists who deal with canine behavior.

There is no logical reason to use harshness of any kind on an 8 week old puppy, especially when there are viable alternatives for teaching.

BTW.....this has been said before, but I'll say it again: Vets know medicine. They do not all know about behavior.

Whatever you say, like i said, what do i know, I'm just a mean person who wants to hurt my puppies. You do the training your way, and others can do it their way. My pups are now dogs, and they're the happiest they can be.

MomOf7

10-29-2006, 08:03 PM

Sorry I also wanted to add that since he is showing alot of drive for prey which is a great thing for a lab puppy you might want to do somethings to encourage him to stalk a toy instead of your hand.
Tie a strong string or thin rope to a toy (I use bumpers or dried duck or pheasant wings) and drag it around the house letting him chase after it. Once he gets it let him play with it for awhile the give him the drop command and take the toy and have him chase it all over again.
Seems that the play you are engaging in with him is only encouraging him to pay attention to your hands. The string or rope will help remove your hand from the situation.
There are also some fishing type poles for dogs that you can get. They have a toy at the end and you can reel in your puppy. Its also a good exercise to start teaching come or here.
Trying different ways of play I believe will help the situation alot.

killerz298

10-29-2006, 08:19 PM

I have plenty of chew toys for him in the kitchen, and I try to get him to play with them but all it seems he wants to do is chew on me and ignore the toys. He has a blanket on the bottom of his crate that he loves to pull out onto the floor and drag it around and bite/hump. When I put it back in he goes to pull it back out and I try to distract him and get him to forget it and it sometimes works. I take him outside every hour or so and we run around for about 30 mins and then I take him back to the kitchen. Sometimes I stay in there and try to play with him for 30 mins and other times (when he is just too crazy and biting) I just leave him with his toys. He usually falls asleep evey 60-90 mins during the day.

Sometimes when he actually does play with his toys he has this brontosaurus that he pounces on and growls at and runs around the kitchen with. Most of the time though he won't play with the toys unless I am there holding them. I try to play fetch with him but he doesn't understand. Most of the time he will either watch the ball roll and then turn around and climb back up on my lap (and then try to bite the **** out of me) or he will chase after the toy, go look at it, and then come back without it and climb back up on my lap.

He is very smart, I got him sitting and laying down already and sometimes "leave it" works when he is biting my pants or shoes. I think I might try using a glove so I can at least spend more time with him and not get shredded. Won't help for my pants and shoes but at least that isn't breaking skin.

MomOf7

10-29-2006, 08:27 PM

I would hesitate to get a glove and allow him to chew on your hand.

I would really try the string on the toy. Maybe get a kong and put some treats or peanut butter in it and tie a string around it and have him chase it.
Try some of the other play methods I have given you as well.
I raise lab pups and know that sometimes it seems like a loosing battle. Just one hump to get over. Dont worry you will have plenty more!:D
Dont get discouraged he will learn to behave if you dont give up I promise:D

killerz298

10-29-2006, 09:38 PM

I didn't mean I would let him bite my hand with the glove on it, I was just going to have it on my hand so it is protected but I would still follow through with the discipline. My hands are pretty beat up right now.

I have a kong ball and I put some peanut butter around the rim and he loved it! He played with that for a little bit but when it was gone he gave up on the toy as usual. I like the string idea, I was doing that outside with a stick and making him chase it but the thing is he loses interest quickly and turns his attention back on me instead of the toys. I wish there was a way I could keep him focused on other things for a longer time.

Tonight, the turn and ignore thing worked and after the second time I did it he was very gently mouthing my hand and would stop himself when he was too hard. When he was too hard he would look up at me and then be gentle. Every once in a while he would be too hard and I would turn around again. This worked well for about 30 mins and he was gentle on my hands but then I took him out to pee and brought him back in and he was in animal mode and I couldn't turn and ignore him anymore as it was pant leg attacking time! So hopefully I can keep up this treatment and get him to understand. How do I go about stopping him from biting my shoes, pants and sweatshirt though? Should I do the same thing?

Doberluv

10-29-2006, 09:56 PM

Good advice from Momof7 and Doberkim....more romping and some mini 5 minute training sessions periodically during the day. Exercising puppy's mind and body will help get some of that pent up energy out and he may slow down with the grabbing your pant legs. Just do what you need to do to prevent him from having fun with your pantlegs or ankles. Sometimes a "time out" or quiet time needs to be implimented if you can't escape him otherwise. LOL. Even just a few minutes helps to send the message that all the fun ends when he does something. You're already seeing a little bit of this removal of the payoff starting to work. Keep up with it. You'll need the practice anyhow with that precise timing for everything. There's more to come. LOL. Puppies are so difficult. It's hard to be patient sometimes. But it will pay off in the long run, so hang in there. You've got a year or two till he's going to be somewhere near civilized.

Spiritus

10-29-2006, 11:05 PM

Whatever you say, like i said, what do i know, I'm just a mean person who wants to hurt my puppies. You do the training your way, and others can do it their way. My pups are now dogs, and they're the happiest they can be.

Oh boy.... please, PLEASE, have an open mind. The more we learn and the more we open ourselves to different options, the more we understand our dogs, and the better owners/trainers we become.

I'll know that it's time for me to get "out" of dogs when I realize I think I know everything. It's a never-ending adventure of learning and growing.... that's one of the reasons why I LOVE my dogs - every one of them is his/her own little adventure, and every one of them teaches me something new....

Note: this post comes from a past believer in alpha rolling and dominance over dogs, instead of leadership and companionship, but my mind was opened, and I learned....

Chul3l3ies1126

10-30-2006, 01:14 AM

hokey dokey pokey smokey

killerz298

10-30-2006, 08:19 AM

Puppies are so difficult. It's hard to be patient sometimes. But it will pay off in the long run, so hang in there. You've got a year or two till he's going to be somewhere near civilized.
Yeah this is my biggest challenge staying calm and not going apeshit when he attacks my hand and legs. I want to play with him so much and I feel bad when I can't because he is an "animal". He is starting to get the hang of fetch but he still doesn't want to do it all the time. Most times I will throw the ball, he will either chase it full or half way, then come back without it and maul my pants lolol. I got a good run of 3 returns before though so I will keep at it and see how it goes. I do many training sessions a day and he has sit down to a science almost immediately when I say it (unless we are outside where all bets are off). As for laying down, he does it sometimes and other times just looks at me dumb. We haven't been working on it that long so another few days he should have it good. I have been practicing stay a little bit too which he DOES NOT like lol. Do you think I should stick to 1 thing until he gets it good or is it ok to do many things throughout the day?

MomOf7

10-30-2006, 10:16 AM

In my experience its best to stick to one command untill he has it down pat then move on to another command. Puppies attention span is about 2 seconds long.
Question: What lines does your lab puppy carry? Or was he a rescue?
The reason I ask is cause field bred labs can be alot of work and very trying on your patience because the have the energy to hunt all day.:D They arent the kind of puppy for the average owner.

killerz298

10-30-2006, 02:42 PM

Here is his information:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9854/pedigreecs1.jpg

MomOf7

10-30-2006, 06:46 PM

He has a nice pedigree. He is Show/Bench and not field bred. All the CH are show titles.
Field bred titles are like these, FC, AFC, NAFC, JH, SH, MH so on and so forth.
If you look on the back of your akc pedigree it tells you what the titles mean.

Here is one of my females she is field bred

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p0b8b3ddefce63526869a6c6a6678b338/ec477a68.jpg

killerz298

10-30-2006, 08:31 PM

Yeah thats not the official AKC pedigree its just what the breeder printed out for me so it doesn't have the legend on the back of it. I have my official one on order from the AKC.

Here is a picture of the little wolf for once biting a ball and not me!

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6667/wolfqk0.jpg

Doberluv

10-30-2006, 08:39 PM

He's adorable. What a good looking little monster. LOL. I love Labs, a great breed and miss my mine but have good memories.

killerz298

10-31-2006, 12:10 PM

He's adorable. What a good looking little monster. LOL. I love Labs, a great breed and miss my mine but have good memories.

Just about the ONLY time he isn't misbehaving!!

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5433/img0146ss5.jpg

Doberluv

10-31-2006, 12:43 PM

A-w-w-w....so cute. He isn't misbehaving though. LOL. He's a dog. He's behaving exaclty how a puppy should behave since he's a dog....until he's taught to live the way we aliens want him to live. We're the ones who are taking an animal and expecting him to change his natural ways to suit us. It's our problem to train them.

killerz298

10-31-2006, 01:13 PM

Yeah I think he is getting better, or I am just getting better at avoiding his mouth :-) The first few days I was really questioning my decision but now I know everything will be ok. I am going to call a dog trainer today and see if we could set something up. He is following basic commands great but only when HE wants to do them. When we are outside and there are so many distractions he doesn't do as well.

Doberluv

10-31-2006, 01:25 PM

Maybe it was on another thread, but I posted a link to some training lessons that are very helpful. You have to go about training in a systematic way. Distractions are an entirely different lesson. Dogs don't generalize very well. So, if a dog can sit in a boring room of your house, that doesn't mean that "sit" means the same thing outside where there are distractions. You have to understand how dogs think and learn. If you have too high expectations, you end up getting more frustrated and possibly taking it out on the poor dog who doesn't know. When you say he follows basic commands great but only when HE wants to do them.....well, naturally. Dogs always do things to please themselves. You have to motivate your dog so that he DOES want to do them. And you have to be able to show him in a way he understands. He has to have had a sufficient volume of reinforcement in order to repeat behaviors reliably. He doesn't think like we do and isn't stubborn or diobeying because he's naughty or immoral. He is a dog and dogs do what works for them. They're innocently selfish. That's just the way they are.

So learn a little about how dogs nature is, how they process information, how they learn and how to train. These things have been studied, observed, researched by leading experts in the field of behaviorism and they're the ones to learn from. Don't get sucked into this pack theory, show 'em who's boss, yank and jerk and scold mumbo jumbo. Learn how dogs learn and learn how to show your dog.... and you'll have a great dog.

Well, here's the link again: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm