Some Pit Education

[Renee750il]

There were some photos posted in another thread of some Pits. Some of you were appalled at their lack of bodyfat, others of you were curious. Three people who are familiar with those dogs posted and I closed the thread before animosities broke out and invited them to educate us about their Pits and conditioning, letting them know that Chaz members are a curious bunch and mostly willing to listen and learn, and that the only things we really have no patience for are BYBS/puppymillers and dog fighting.

So, how about we listen, ask questions and learn ;)

[Gamedogs]

Here's the picture of the dog...

http://i9.tinypic.com/44la68m.jpg

[GSDlover_4ever]

I just saw the thread, and I wanted to post but it was closed. I actually thought the second pit looked great, but I want to know how far my "standard" for a pit is from the real standard.

[Buckshot]

I wonder if I would be ripped like that simply from dragging a 3/8" chain around. Im curious what the collar is made of to not be the weak link in that chain. @26,000lbs breaking strength on 3/8" chain compaired to about 6000lb breaking strength on the nylon if it is 2" which it looks smaller, seems like the fellow here is training for the olympics.

[sam]

Wow I've never seen a dog quite that ripped:yikes: but I don't have enough knowledge to know wether a dog looking like that can in fact be healthy. The chain is certainly off putting since chained dogs don't usually have very good lives and yes indeed that looks to be on an awfully heavy chain --certainly makes you wonder....

[Renee750il]

That's what this thread is for . . . to ask civil questions and learn something. I said you guys were a curious bunch of people who were open to learning new things.

[Char_06]

I've got to be honest the musculan pic in the first thread looking unnatural...but tbh im not used to seeing these dogs much in the UK...i'm glad you posted more because it was obvious they are in very good condition...lovely shining coats etc.
Sorry if you've already said but are these dogs your pets aswell or do you have kennels or something?

[Char_06]

Also wondering what kind of competitions do you go in for? Sorry if im abit slow..i dont know much about the breed.

[elegy]

i'm curious about why the nickname "gamedogs" since no ethical dog owner or pit bull lover would ever really know if their dogs are game or not, since they'd never roll them to find out.

p.s. i think the dog looks fabulous.

[jess2416]

Here's the picture of the dog...



Is that all ???? no more info bout your dogs than the picture :rolleyes: ....???

If I remember correctly we already saw the picture.......

[Renee750il]

Now, Jess . . . we already know you're game :D

[sam]

soooo..... I missed the other thread, is someone going to tell us what that dog does to become so muscled or and why exactly it is chained out with that monster chain or what? ......

[jess2416]

Now, Jess . . . we already know you're game :D

Sorry :)... I really dont have anything to say...I didnt even post in the OT...:D

K...going about my business now ;)

[molena]

Thanks so much for re-opening discussion in this sort of open-minded way! I'm sure Gamedogs will respond about Lil Bit, the dog in the picture, and on the question of tethering. But as to the quality of gameness - many believe it can be demonstrated or even "tested" in lots of sporting activities which are not illegal. Weight-pulling, dock-jumping and hog hunting are a few. Others, it's true, believe gameness can never be tested except in through fighting. Still, it's a quality that people admire and discuss often in relation to pit bulls, and honoring the breed's history as a fighter doesn't necessarily mean a person is unethical! Think of it like how people honor war heroes - Americans do that all the time without advocating war. Many pit bull enthusiasts enjoy owning "game-bred" bloodlines because that is where the APBT came from, and gameness is the "truest" breed standard we have in terms of the breed's original function.

[Gamedogs]

I wonder if I would be ripped like that simply from dragging a 3/8" chain around. Im curious what the collar is made of to not be the weak link in that chain. @26,000lbs breaking strength on 3/8" chain compaired to about 6000lb breaking strength on the nylon if it is 2" which it looks smaller, seems like the fellow here is training for the olympics.Lol... you can wonder all you like, but as for your so-called fact about a "3/8 inch" chain, I'd like to know where you came up with that? I also want to know what 3/8" chain you know of that has a "26,000lbs breaking strength"? Even the "working load limit" on a 3\8" grade 120 chain is 10,600lbs, which is the strongest chain, in the U.S.A. that you can buy and is less than half of what you stated. Even a 3\8" grade 43 (the grade that we use that is lighter than grade 30) is 5,400lbs WLL... the actual truth about the matter, rather than voicing your opinion and stating it as fact, is that it is a 1\4" grade 43 chain that has a WLL of 2,600lbs and weighs 0.65lbs per foot. So let's do the math here about the supposed "heavy chain"... since she is actually a house dog, and rarely ever even on a chain, she is kept on an 8 foot chain and 8 * 0.65 is 5.2lbs... not sure if that is considered heavy for just any dog, but it's like "dragging" a feather around to them. And another thing, who ever told you that my dog's collar has a "breaking strength" of anywhere near 6,000lbs?

Wow I've never seen a dog quite that ripped:yikes: but I don't have enough knowledge to know wether a dog looking like that can in fact be healthy. The chain is certainly off putting since chained dogs don't usually have very good lives and yes indeed that looks to be on an awfully heavy chain --certainly makes you wonder....Refer to above, although you stated it as an opinion rather than fact, the same response would be mildly appropriate.

I've got to be honest the musculan pic in the first thread looking unnatural...but tbh im not used to seeing these dogs much in the UK...i'm glad you posted more because it was obvious they are in very good condition...lovely shining coats etc.
Sorry if you've already said but are these dogs your pets aswell or do you have kennels or something?Have you not heard of the phrase "looks can be deceiving?" I really couldn't care less if anyone thought it was unnatural or not, that's their opinion, and we all have one just like something else (not specifically directed toward you, only about the "unnatural" statement that many others have mentioned).

Also wondering what kind of competitions do you go in for? Sorry if im abit slow..i dont know much about the breed.Who or what says that I do? Does the shape, condition, or health of my dogs have to be for competitive reasons? I occasionally show my dogs, and although I'm sure you would see it as competition, I see it more as for fun and to talk to fellow "dog" people.

i'm curious about why the nickname "gamedogs" since no ethical dog owner or pit bull lover would ever really know if their dogs are game or not, since they'd never roll them to find out.

p.s. i think the dog looks fabulous.Well... to be honest, ethics has nothing to do with gameness (although I do not game test my dogs), it is more political brainwash and public deception than anything. And, the reason for the nickname "gamedogs" is because they are American Pit Bull Terriers, not "pitbulls" and they are game-bred dogs (the entire actual "breed", because if they are ever bred for anything else, within 2-3 generations, maybe a couple more, if you're lucky, they will no longer have any of the traits of a game dog other than the fact that they tend to make good family dogs, if bred properly). Also, to top that off, since the username "Marty" was taken, I decided on "Gamedogs" because of my website, game-dog.com (I'm not advertising, which is why it isn't a link, only explaining to try to be "helpful" if I can even call it that).

soooo..... I missed the other thread, is someone going to tell us what that dog does to become so muscled or and why exactly it is chained out with that monster chain or what? ......Lol, you seem to be extremely impatient, I'll tell you how she become so "muscled", but first... "monster chain"? Lol, that is funny... but anyway, the way she became so "muscled" is being raised for about 14 months (so far) in the house, being fed extreme premium dog food, and is from solid genetics (something you may want to research).

And, since there was more than one post about the "heavy chain"... here are some pictures without a chain to make you feel better.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/T-shirts/Lilbit-05-05-06.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/Best-today-002.jpg

[iheartsammy]

what dog food do you feed?

[blue]

Very pretty dog.

[bittervanityx]

I dont think the dog looks unhealthy or bad, being a pit owner myself and knowing the breed. He kind of looks like hes a weight puller, the the last pics posted. I think he could use a little weight on him, imo, the rib area.

The only thing I cant stand about people breeding pit bulls now are the ones who are VERY bulky and fat looking. They are disgusting and definatly do not fit the ukc standard.

Like so... http://www.muglestonspitbullfarm.com/

[Gamedogs]

what dog food do you feed?In those (latest, actually older) pictures, she was being fed Canidae All Life Stages (http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html), in the picture that nearly everyone is complaining about, she was being fed Timberwolf Wild & Natural (http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/wn.33.htm), now she is eating Timberwolf Lamb & Apple (http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/lba.33.htm). That does not include any of my other dogs, currently, they are all getting some type of Timberwolf (http://www.timberwolforganics.com/) formula.

I think he could use a little weight on him, imo, the rib area.Well, to be honest, "she" is actually a tad heavy (within a couple to a few pounds) if she were actually in perfect physical condition, but thankfully, that is only your opinion. :)

The only thing I cant stand about people breeding pit bulls now are the ones who are VERY bulky and fat looking. They are disgusting and definatly do not fit the ukc standard.I'm not sure where "breeding" got involved, that is an entirely different subject. And, about the UKC... my dogs do not fit UKC standards (actually Am Staff standards rather than APBT) as well as they do the original, updated, and modern ADBA standards.

[Cheetah]

Impressive! Canidae is one of my favorites for my dogs! >^_^<

Do you do weight-pulling with your dog? It looks like a fun sport and I'd be tempted to try that out if I ever got a pit.

[molena]

The other thread struck a huge chord with me because I see, far too often, responsible owners whose pit bulls are seized by animal control officers and put down because they are "too thin" (or at least that's the excuse; I think it's often the anti-pit bull prejudice at work). I completely understand being concerned about animal welfare, but when people close their minds and just assume a dog is abused or neglected because it is "thin," tragedies can happen! The difference between too thin and good condition is not nearly as easy to see in dogs as it is in humans. And many of us are so used to looking at overweight pets these days rather than conditioned, athletic dogs.

[iheartsammy]

off-topic but..

Cheetah, are you on another dog forum? your doggies look familler (sp?)

[Gamedogs]

Impressive! Canidae is one of my favorites for my dogs! >^_^<Canidae only worked out well for 2, maybe 3 of my 8 dogs, so I wouldn't really rate it very high with my dogs, but it is definitely a lot more of a premium feed than commercial feed (basically poison).

off-topic but..

Cheetah, are you on another dog forum? your doggies look familler (sp?)Just a request, but please stay on topic and use private messages or email to chit-chat, or on another thread.

[RockstarKennelz]

"Monster" chain is grossly overstated. I believe it's probably the standard 1/4" link, which is featherweight to such powerful animals. It's not uncommon for one to break something smaller -and occasionally may even break the quarter-inch- which is something you don't want to happen when you have dogs that don't always get along in the same proximity.
As far as chain dogs not having good lives, please don't believe everything you hear. A dog can be neglected in the house just as easily as it can on the chain. Some people treat their animals like garbage regardless of how they are contained, whereas those of us who love, value, and respect our dogs will generally put them first, above all else. To some of us, these dogs are nothing less than a way of life.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/725/unhappychaindogcq0.jpg
This girl is kept on a chain simply because she doesn't get along with all our other dogs, some of which are also on chains. It doesn't mean she's loved any less than our house dogs, nor any of the other dogs on our yard. And we are full to bursting of love for our dogs:). Being on a chain doesn't make her mean, or crazy, or aggressive, or paranoid, contrary to what some like to believe. And although she doesn't get along with every dog she may encounter, there are plenty she does.
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2904/tequilavssasha2zo.jpg

Anyway, there seems to be a crusade to rid the world of "pitbulls" lately, and it makes many of us APBT lovers a little nervous. It just breaks my heart when some uneducated and inexperienced group of animal control officers takes away some family's beloved dog simply because they cannot tell the difference between a skinny starved dog and one that's had blood, sweat, and tears poured into it to keep it conditioned and healthy.
Thank you for allowing me to share.

[Cheetah]

Canidae only worked out well for 2, maybe 3 of my 8 dogs, so I wouldn't really rate it very high with my dogs, but it is definitely a lot more of a premium feed than commercial feed (basically poison).

As I've said before, every dog is different, even in reaction to the premium foods, and I have even heard of dogs doing horribly on Innova which is supposed to be the best food out there lol...

And, yes, I am on several other forums. </OT>

Anyway, there seems to be a crusade to rid the world of "pitbulls" lately, and it makes many of us APBT lovers a little nervous. It just breaks my heart when some uneducated and inexperienced group of animal control officers take away some family's beloved dog simply because they cannot tell the difference between a skinny starved dog and one that's had blood, sweat, and tears poured into it to keep it conditioned and healthy.
Thank you for allowing me to share.

I know how that is, even not being a pitty owner myself... I live near Denver, where there is a breed ban... >-.-< In order to own one in the future, I won't have access to all the less expensive housing that is more common in Denver than any of the surrounding cities, where it is considerably more expensive. Either way, I refuse to live there.

[blue]

Many of us , though we dont own Pits, love the breed. I think the verdict was my Verde likely has some Pit in her, allthough she is a stray and a mutt so who knows.

[Julie]

Lol, you seem to be extremely impatient, I'll tell you how she become so "muscled", but first... "monster chain"? Lol, that is funny... but anyway, the way she became so "muscled" is being raised for about 14 months (so far) in the house, being fed extreme premium dog food, and is from solid genetics (something you may want to research.

I am sorry, but I don't believe that muscle can be obtained on any animal just living in the house for 14 months, being fed premium dog food, and genetics. Maybe if you went into detail of "weight pulling", "treadmill running", supplements etc.
But not a house dog.
Are you sure you didn't leave something out?

[iheartsammy]

Just a request, but please stay on topic and use private messages or email to chit-chat, or on another thread.

I think I'm entitled to ask a simple question...its not like its that distractive :confused:

[RockstarKennelz]

Quality protein, fat, and carbohydrates.

[RockstarKennelz]

...and genetics definitely play a major role.

[Gamedogs]

As I've said before, every dog is different, even in reaction to the premium foods, and I have even heard of dogs doing horribly on Innova which is supposed to be the best food out there lol...

And, yes, I am on several other forums.You may have said that before, but since you have not mentioned anything about it in the 2 threads (including this one) that are at hand, and I've only looked at the 2, I responded to what you said... but I agree that each dog is different and do differently per dog.

I am sorry, but I don't believe that muscle can be obtained on any animal just living in the house for 14 months, being fed premium dog food, and genetics. Maybe if you went into detail of "weight pulling", "treadmill running", supplements etc.
But not a house dog.
Are you sure you didn't leave something out?I made the post, and that is how it was, is, and will be, at least for now, and I don't agree with many of the supplements other than fresh wild salmon oil or kelp, and I don't really considered those supplements, although I'm feeding neither at this time.

And, yes... I'm sure I didn't leave something out, if I did, it would have been edited by now.

I think I'm entitled to ask a simple question...its not like its that distractive :confused:You are technically "entitled" to do whatever you wish, as long as it conforms to the people who run this site's rules, or whatever. It was simply a request, as I stated. Please do not get offended.

[Julie]

I made the post, and that is how it was, is, and will be, at least for now, and I don't agree with many of the supplements other than fresh wild salmon oil or kelp, and I don't really considered those supplements, although I'm feeding neither at this time.

And, yes... I'm sure I didn't leave something out, if I did, it would have been edited by now.

Hmmmm. So you are saying that dog in the picture gets virtually no excercise? and just lives in the house? Not on that chain?

[Gamedogs]

Hmmmm. So you are saying that dog in the picture gets virtually no excercise? and just lives in the house? Not on that chain?
Basically, yes... "she" is actually on the chain maybe once a week on average... she goes out on the chain when it isn't too hot, too cold, too wet, or too dry, and since that doesn't happen very often here, she doesn't go on the chain much. I don't like taking pictures of my dogs in the house, because they are much more photogenic outside.

Although that doesn't have anything to do with the subject or thread at hand, since the "chain" seems to be more of an issue than the dog, I figured I would go ahead and respond to it.

[colliewog]

This is the original pic that started the other post and people were commenting on.

http://i9.tinypic.com/2nh2flj.jpg

I don't know if he belongs to either of those replying to these threads, but if so, do you have any other pics of him that you could share? I'd be curious to see if it's just camera angles that make him look so thin. Your girl doesn't look too thin to me, but personally (which is all we can go on) the boy is thinner than I would like if he were mine. But again, when I had Pits, they were built more like the average Am Staff. :cool:

[blue]

Basically, yes... "she" is actually on the chain maybe once a week on average... she goes out on the chain when it isn't too hot, too cold, too wet, or too dry, and since that doesn't happen very often here, she doesn't go on the chain much. I don't like taking pictures of my dogs in the house, because they are much more photogenic outside.

Although that doesn't have anything to do with the subject or thread at hand, since the "chain" seems to be more of an issue than the dog, I figured I would go ahead and respond to it.

So the dietary asspect is something that must be closely watched?

*edit*

I might have missed how much and what kind of exercise she gets.

[Gamedogs]

So the dietary asspect is something that must be closely watched?
Although I'm really not sure what you're getting at by asking that question, but yes, any "healthy" dog's health has a lot to do with the "dietary asspect."

[blue]

Although I'm really not sure what you're getting at by asking that question, but yes, any "healthy" dog's health has a lot to do with the "dietary asspect."

Check my *edit* on my above post.

[Gamedogs]

This is the original pic that started the other post and people were commenting on.

http://i9.tinypic.com/2nh2flj.jpg

I don't know if he belongs to either of those replying to these threads, but if so, do you have any other pics of him that you could share? I'd be curious to see if it's just camera angles that make him look so thin. Your girl doesn't look too thin to me, but personally (which is all we can go on) the boy is thinner than I would like if he were mine. But again, when I had Pits, they were built more like the average Am Staff. :cool:No, that dog doesn't belong to anyone who has commented in this or the original thread. But, yes, I have different pictures of the dog, but only one other (which is not really important to be shared here) when he was in perfect physical and mental condition. Although he may look thin, skinny, starved, or whatever the case may be, that dog, in that picture is in optimal shape and condition. In that picture, he was eating no less than 7-8 cups of premium dog food per day rather than 3-4 cups if he was just being fed to stay at a healthy state. You will not see many dogs as well conditioned as he is in that picture, whether you or anyone else thinks he is too thin or not. There is little to no back bone showing, no hip bones showing, and no matter what anyone thinks, only a hint of ribs showing in that picture... in that picture, he was not thin, skinny, starved, neglected, or abused, but simply worked.

Check my *edit* on my above post.Alright, I did that... now how about you go read back through my posts in this thread to come up with that answer, if you really need one, because the subject of exercise, with her, has already been discussed. :)

[Danegirl2208]

i personally think he looks great! Not to thin at all..Definatly in top condition

[blue]

Alright, I did that... now how about you go read back through my posts in this thread to come up with that answer, if you really need one, because the subject of exercise, with her, has already been discussed. :)

You are less likely to play nice with others than I am arent you?

You want the breed to be portrayed in a better light, the owners should lead the way.

So how do you balance the exersize with the diet if this is mainly a house dog?

[colliewog]

Although he may look thin, skinny, starved, or whatever the case may be, that dog, in that picture is in optimal shape and condition. In that picture, he was eating no less than 7-8 cups of premium dog food per day rather than 3-4 cups if he was just being fed to stay at a healthy state. You will not see many dogs as well conditioned as he is in that picture, whether you or anyone else thinks he is too thin or not. There is little to no back bone showing, no hip bones showing, and no matter what anyone thinks, only a hint of ribs showing in that picture... in that picture, he was not thin, skinny, starved, neglected, or abused, but simply worked.

Dogs in this condition are not the norm in the pet world, nor the AKC/UKC conformation or performance world, so it does look out of the ordinary for the majority of us, thus the questions and comments. Thank you for your patience.

Can you further explain this comment? he was eating no less than 7-8 cups of premium dog food per day rather than 3-4 cups if he was just being fed to stay at a healthy state I assume he was being exercised heavily in order to require more food, right? Otherwise, I'll admit I'm confused!

[blue]

Can you further explain this comment? I assume he was being exercised heavily in order to require more food, right? Otherwise, I'll admit I'm confused!

Apperently that was explained allready, Im waiting for the full version.

[colliewog]

I think we're dealing with feeding questions on two different dogs. Might be the same circumstance, but I wasn't sure.

[Gamedogs]

So how do you balance the exersize with the diet if this is mainly a house dog?To be basic, since she is a mainly a house dog (basically a pet) at this time, it isn't really about a balance between exercise and diet, but simply about optimal weight. Although, she is extremely active, highly energetic, and unbelievably out-going, she gets little to no purposeful exercise whatsoever... health is usually a combination of exercise and diet, but a naturally active dog doesn't have to be exercised to be healthy.

[Julie]

The "he" is not her dog as they already stated. Although I am surprised gamedog's is familiar with his food intake. The first picture in this thread is Gamedog's , a she.
And apparently she is a house dog with muscles equal to the hulk....

[Gamedogs]

I assume he was being exercised heavily in order to require more food, right?

Otherwise, I'll admit I'm confused!Yes, which is the reason I included "but simply worked."

The "he" is not her dog as they already stated. Although I am surprised gamedog's is familiar with his food intake. The first picture in this thread is Gamedog's , a she.
And apparently she is a house dog with muscles equal to the hulk....I'm not sure who the "her" is because I am a he, but I'm glad I surprised you, and just to let you know, he was exactly (within a half of a pound) 51lbs in that picture. And, if you see her as "a house dog with muscles equal to the hulk" then, I guess I should take that as a compliment. If you are being facetious or sarcastic, then the only thing I can state is fact, if you believe them to be inacurate, that is on you... what you "think" about something relating to me means nothing to me.

[colliewog]

Yes, which is the reason I included "but simply worked."



Oops, I see that now. Thanks for the clarification.

[blue]

To be basic, since she is a mainly a house dog (basically a pet) at this time, it isn't really about a balance between exercise and diet, but simply about optimal weight. Although, she is extremely active, highly energetic, and unbelievably out-going, she gets little to no purposeful exercise whatsoever... health is usually a combination of exercise and diet, but a naturally active dog doesn't have to be exercised to be healthy.

Thank you for the further explanation.

As this is a Pit specific thread any further knowlege you have would be welcome at any time and would be welcomed without further solicitation. Any knowlege at all pertaining to Pits this is the place for it. You want to dispel myths on Pit breeds, this is the place. Educate us, show us more pics, and show us prime examples of the breed/s with titles champions or better yet Therapy and SAR dogs and CGCs. Feel free to spout out here, dont wait and act deffensive at responses or hold back with your experience with the breeds.

You obviously want your breed to be held in the best light possible, dont make us pull teeth to get the info out of you. Relax a little with your posts.

[colliewog]

I like that idea. If any of your dogs are competitive in sports, I'd love to see more pics (especially weight pull). :)

[Gamedogs]

You obviously want your breed to be held in the best light possible, dont make us pull teeth to get the info out of you. Relax a little with your posts.I am totally relaxed with my posts, there is no room for emotion in any discussion... and I believe you have the wrong impression of me. As I've already explained to the person that closed the original thread, the only reason I am here is because of the accusations and theoretical "facts" mentioned about my dog without knowledge of anything related to her, me, or anything else, based simply upon a "picture."

If you (basically, members on this forum) are interested in learning something about "this breed" (APBTs specifically), you are more than welcome to either visit, frequent, or read the discussions on my site, game-dog.com, or register there and advertise this thread with exactly what you expect out of the discussion included.

Again, my only purpose here is for the inaccuracies and assumptions made toward the pictures that were posted, and most (not all) questions related to them. If you want anything more, I can not possibly be the only one to be of service to you.

I like that idea. If any of your dogs are competitive in sports, I'd love to see more pics (especially weight pull). :)Since I don't do weight pull, and most people think of showing as competitive, here are a few show pictures.

Best of Opposite and Best of Show:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/bosboo9-16-06.jpg

Best of Opposite:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/finale-bestofopposite.jpg

Best of Show:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/aka-bestofshow.jpg

They are littermates.

[blue]

So you have nothing to add other than to defend the pictures in the closed thread?

Good day to you sir. You where given a chance to expound on your breed of choice and you chose to only defend pics on a closed thread, instead of increasing our knowlege with yours on your breed of choice.

Im not inerested in joining another forum, much less one that is breed specific.

There are plenty of Pit owners here that I can turn to for knowlege of the breed/s so I can do without your board, your knowlege would still be very welcome here if you are interested.

Your posts are very uptight, like a stick is somewhere it shouldnt be. Take a step back mellow out a little, and reread your posts, you may not have a poorly placed stick but thats how you come off.

COI.

[Zoom]

I've stayed up long past my bedtime to read all 6 pages of this, hoping to get the same indepth look into APBT's that we've had on Dobermans, GSD's and a couple other breeds by those who own and have a lot of that little-known knowledge the rest of us don't. I cant' say that I've learned much, sadly, because the information presented is incredibly generic. Great, my dogs are house dogs, fed an optimum premium food and get plenty of exercise as well, which apparently is something these particular dogs lack and just one day wake up with these "popped" muscles; no explination was forth-coming I saw. My dogs still don't look like that...though Virgo was close, in my opinion. I'll have to pull up that picture for another thread.

[silverpawz]

Alright, I don't want to start something by saying this...but I just can't NOT say it.

The picture of the male pit...you can see at least four ribs, and it looks to me like there's two-three backbones visable. That doesn't happen unless the dog is underweight. Period.

Yes, some breeds are more slender than others, I'm sure Saluki people have a terrible time convincing their neighbors that their dogs are not starved, but even on a Saluki in perfect weight you don't see backbones or ribs that visible. Likewise on Pits.

If he was eating 8 cups of food per day and he STILL looked that way, then I have to wonder if there's something wrong healthwise that's causing him to not gain weight.

Sure, he's got muscles. But he's also too thin from the looks of that picture. A dog can be ripped and still underweight.

[Delisay]

I've never seen anything like this before outside of a body building comp. A friend of mine was an international drug-free body building champ, and he talks a lot about the art of looking 'ripped' like that. Apart from genetic variation, the basics are:

1. Maintaining an extremely low body fat. This is the only way that the muscles can show - my removing the smoothing effect of the fat which is normally under the skin. There is much debate in human circles about how healthy such extremely low BMIs are...
2. Working out!
3. Enough protein.
4. Prior to show day, intentional dehydration. :yikes: Hopefully no-one does that with their dogs!

...but bone isn't supposed to show. I must say the when I saw the second dog, the first thing that struck me was that I can see its spine and hip bones - a measure of 'gone way too far' in my book. However, Gamedogs says that he doesn't see these things, which is very puzzling. I don't know about game dogs but it's physiologically stressful for other animals to be so extremely lean, so...?

(Actually I was only curious to read about it at all because I found myself so taken aback by the tone of Gamedogs' early posts - how aggressive/defensive/hypersensitive they appear in response to what seem to be extremely moderate and neutral-toned questions and comments. Instinctively I found it a bit frightening actually. Glad I'm not in the same room. (Was that a little direct? Oh well!) It's interesting how even in writing one can see people treading so lightly with Gamedogs, to (understandably) attempt to avoid tripping that hairtrigger.*)

Del.

*Edit: Except Blue's 'stick diagnosis' :lol-sign: !! :popcorn:

[Gamedogs]

The picture of the male pit...you can see at least four ribs, and it looks to me like there's two-three backbones visable. That doesn't happen unless the dog is underweight. Period.

Yes, some breeds are more slender than others, I'm sure Saluki people have a terrible time convincing their neighbors that their dogs are not starved, but even on a Saluki in perfect weight you don't see backbones or ribs that visible. Likewise on Pits.

If he was eating 8 cups of food per day and he STILL looked that way, then I have to wonder if there's something wrong healthwise that's causing him to not gain weight.

Sure, he's got muscles. But he's also too thin from the looks of that picture. A dog can be ripped and still underweight.Underweight and conditioned, compared to underweight and starved are completely two different things. In the picture of the male, the same day the picture was taken, he could have easilly ran as fast, or faster than any human can run for 3+ hours and not miss a step if he wanted to. Underweight, by looks, doesn't include performance dogs conditioned to their peak performance level... and as I've said, if the dog was not being worked, he would have been eating 3-4 cups instead of 7-8 (or more) to be at that size.

[blue]

I am totally relaxed with my posts, there is no room for emotion in any discussion... and I believe you have the wrong impression of me. As I've already explained to the person that closed the original thread, the only reason I am here is because of the accusations and theoretical "facts" mentioned about my dog without knowledge of anything related to her, me, or anything else, based simply upon a "picture."

If you (basically, members on this forum) are interested in learning something about "this breed" (APBTs specifically), you are more than welcome to either visit, frequent, or read the discussions on my site, game-dog.com, or register there and advertise this thread with exactly what you expect out of the discussion included.

Again, my only purpose here is for the inaccuracies and assumptions made toward the pictures that were posted, and most (not all) questions related to them. If you want anything more, I can not possibly be the only one to be of service to you.

Since I don't do weight pull, and most people think of showing as competitive, here are a few show pictures.

Best of Opposite and Best of Show:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/bosboo9-16-06.jpg

Best of Opposite:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/finale-bestofopposite.jpg

Best of Show:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/aka-bestofshow.jpg

They are littermates.

Nice edit. Very nice looking dogs.

[Delisay]

Now those are way nicer looking dogs - much healthier.

[silverpawz]

Underweight, and conditioned, compared to underweight and starved are completely two different things.

Both still equal a skinny dog assuming the exercise (or "conditiong") burns more calories than the dog is taking in. That's the same as starving.

You should not be able to see ribs and backbones so visible on a performance dog or not. Feel them easily without pressing? Sure. See one or two ribs? Okay. But not four ribs and certainly not backbone as well.

[Gamedogs]

Nice edit. Very nice looking dogs.Alright, well what about these pictures taken the same day of the same dogs, in a different light?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/finale11.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/aka02.jpg

Both still equal a skinny dog assuming the exercise (or "conditiong") burns more calories than the dog is taking in. That's the same as starving.

You should not be able to see ribs and backbones so visible on a performance dog or not. Feel them easily without pressing? Sure. See one or two ribs? Okay. But not four ribs and certainly not backbone as well.

At least we all have our own opinions. :)

[colliewog]

Thanks for posting more pics. I have noticed that in many of the pics (your show pics and others I've seen elsewhere) they seem to be pulling against the leads when they are photographed - is that just their natural stance or is that something you try to get them to do, ie a specific pose to show muscle?

[blue]

Alright, well what about these pictures taken the same day of the same dogs, in a different light?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/finale11.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/aka02.jpg

Very nice looking dogs.

You should stick around, for your breed. The stick thing might need working out though.

[Delisay]

OK, now they look worse. Must have been good light. Here you can see how their stomachs are sucked-in (vacuum-like), like a starving person's. Those guts are empty.

D.

[Gamedogs]

Thanks for posting more pics. I have noticed that in many of the pics (your show pics and others I've seen elsewhere) they seem to be pulling against the leads when they are photographed - is that just their natural stance or is that something you try to get them to do, ie a specific pose to show muscle?
I'm not really sure exactly what you are asking, but every picture posted (at the show) are a combination of natrual stance and handling, the only thing that the handler is trying to get them to do is stand to the side rather than standing, or facing, the front or the back.
OK, now they look worse. Must have been good light. Here you can see how their stomachs are sucked-in (vacuum-like), like a starving person's. Those guts are empty.

D.If that is the case, why is it that the judge, who has had extensive experience with the breed, as well as the breed standard, chose them over 103 dogs total that day? And the next day, with more dogs, and a different judge, they received first and second place in their class?

[silverpawz]

I think it's a misconception that performance dogs need to be underweight. I'm willing to bet the top dogs in agility, disk dog, weight pulling, etc. are no where near that underweight yet they're still in top condition.

So I'm wondering, what dog sport do you participate in that requires a dog to have so little body fat? Unless you mentioned this before and I just missed it?

[blue]

I dont think the dogs pictured are underwieght or unhealthy.

I take issue with the tact of some new posters.

[Gamedogs]

I think it's a misconception that performance dogs need to be underweight. I'm willing to bet the top dogs in agility, disk dog, weight pulling, etc. are no where near that underweight yet they're still in top condition.

So I'm wondering, what dog sport do you participate in that requires a dog to have so little body fat? Unless you mentioned this before and I just missed it?Misconception, miss communication, or misinterpretation, the fact is that the male, which is not my dog, posted is in perfect "working" condition. Since the dog is not my own, your last question is irrelevant especially since I have already mentioned the only so-called "sport" that "I'm" involved in.

[colliewog]

I'm not really sure exactly what you are asking, but every picture posted (at the show) are a combination of natrual stance and handling, the only thing that the handler is trying to get them to do is stand to the side rather than standing, or facing, the front or the back.


The best in show male, for instance, is straining against the leash instead of standing square. He may just be excited, or do you have people off camera encouraging him to do that? I'm wondering if it's a preferred stance or just coincidence. I don't know ADBA rules or conformation standards, which is why I ask.

[silverpawz]

Since the dog is not my own, your last question is irrelevant.

If you're saying he's in perfect working condition, it's relevent, since we have no clue what he does while he's working.

[blue]

Misconception, miss communication, or misinterpretation, the fact is that the male, which is not my dog, posted is in perfect "working" condition. Since the dog is not my own, your last question is irrelevant.

Feel free to inform us before an irrelevant issue becomes an issue or irrelevaNT.

The stick issue with you is far reaching.

[Gamedogs]

The best in show male, for instance, is straining against the leash instead of standing square. He may just be excited, or do you have people off camera encouraging him to do that? I'm wondering if it's a preferred stance or just coincidence. I don't know ADBA rules or conformation standards, which is why I ask.There are no people, other than handlers of other dogs, and dogs around them (excluding the judge and the person who helps them carry things and jot down information). So there is no one encouraging them to stand in any specific stance, pulling or not. If you are referring to the picture with him and the trophy, there were only 5 people in the ring or anywhere close at the time (no other dogs, other than the two), 3 of them are in the picture, 2 holding the dogs and the judge, the other 2 were taking pictures.

Just for your information, here are the ADBA Breed Standards (http://www.adba.cc/p_pdetails.asp?fpid=32&pg=32) and although they have been greatly modified over the years, those 2 (actually all 4 mentioned) are and would have been true to standard under any of the changes.

[Delisay]

If that is the case, why is it that the judge, who has had extensive experience with the breed, as well as the breed standard, chose them over 103 dogs total that day?...
Because of the criteria used in the standard.

Winning body builders aren't 'healthy' by usual standards either, and they know it. They push themselves to the absolute limit in order to win a competition based on criteria which are known to be unhealthy at that level. A dog with an extremely squashed up nose - if it's a pug - may win a competition but never in its life be truly comfortable.

The question is whether one feels that the potential health and wellbeing downsides of pursuing such extreme physical features in our fellow creatures, so that humans can win competitions with them, can be justified. These dogs don't look that bad, but they appear to be pushing the boundaries.

D.

[silverpawz]

Hmmm. Never mind. I checked out your site and I only had to read one thread to find out what you mean by 'working'. Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly around here.

Maybe you can tell me why this thread (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17163&page=1&pp=10) seems slanted towards dog fighting, rather than against it? I cringed to read about baiting, and facing two dogs toward each other just so they'd run faster on the treadmill.

Please. Tell me you're not promoting dog fighitng over there? Maybe I'm reading that whole post wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.

ETA: I think it's pretty clear from reading THIS (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15816&page=1&pp=10&highlight=fighting) thread that I just found while riffiling through your forum, that you do indeed have folks that fight dogs there. Discussing how long a dog has to fight to make it "game" and what happens to the dogs if they "cur" or give up in a fight...yeah...I'm thinking there's no good way to explain away a thread like that.

The fact that no moderator or admin put a stop to the discussion makes me think you promote dog fighting, or at the very least passivly allow members to discuss the topic (members who clearly fight dogs) without making it clear that you DON'T advocate it.

[RockstarKennelz]

Because of the criteria used in the standard.

Winning body builders aren't 'healthy' by usual standards either, and they know it. They push themselves to the absolute limit in order to win a competition based on criteria which are known to be unhealthy at that level. A dog with an extremely squashed up nose - if it's a pug - may win a competition but never in its life be truly comfortable.

The question is whether one feels that the potential health and wellbeing downsides of pursuing such extreme physical features in our fellow creatures, so that humans can win competitions with them, can be justified. These dogs don't look that bad, but they appear to be pushing the boundaries.

D.


The fact is: just a little extra fat on a dog during a hard competition can cause it to overheat quickly, and/or simply slow it down. Take a greyhound for example; these dogs must be lean and healthy to be able to run like they do. Please check out some pics of conditioned greyhounds if you get a chance. A conditioned dog is NOT an underweight dog. It isn't the same as body-building competitions. A sporting dog is conditioned for performance, not for looks. A good conditioner will find the perfect performance weight for a given dog, and not go an ounce under it. The athletic canine must be strong, fast, and agile, with a high degree of stamina to compete in some of the more grueling competitions, such as weightpull, hog-hunting, agility, racing, etc. An underweight dog will generally be too weak, slow, and unhealthy to be much of a competitor.
And yes, certain poses and lighting can most definitely make a dog appear more "ripped." A dog pulling against a lead while exhaling will absolutely be a different picture than one of the same dog eating or laying around;).
Here's another pic of the male in the first picture:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6013/machoaa2.jpg

Also, two different pics of the same female, taken the same day:
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/7776/chsashacond8np.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1511/sasha905bp0.jpg

[Delisay]

A great illustration Rock, thanks. She looks nice either way - strong and healthy...no spine/hips bones showing.

[RockstarKennelz]

And yet one more photo of the dog in the first pic...
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9598/macho2kb1.jpg

[mrose_s]

Here's the picture of the dog...

http://i9.tinypic.com/44la68m.jpg

i won't say it looks natural, and i don't like the chain or that i can see its ribs. but otherwise it has a healthy coat and a straving dog cannot be that strong.. but i dunno the breed well so i can't say

[mrose_s]

The fact is: just a little extra fat on a dog during a hard competition can cause it to overheat quickly, and/or simply slow it down. Take a greyhound for example; these dogs must be lean and healthy to be able to run like they do. Please check out some pics of conditioned greyhounds if you get a chance. A conditioned dog is NOT an underweight dog. It isn't the same as body-building competitions. A sporting dog is conditioned for performance, not for looks. A good conditioner will find the perfect performance weight for a given dog, and not go an ounce under it. The athletic canine must be strong, fast, and agile, with a high degree of stamina to compete in some of the more grueling competitions, such as weightpull, hog-hunting, agility, racing, etc. An underweight dog will generally be too weak, slow, and unhealthy to be much of a competitor.
And yes, certain poses and lighting can most definitely make a dog appear more "ripped." A dog pulling against a lead while exhaling will absolutely be a different picture than one of the same dog eating or laying around;).
Here's another pic of the male in the first picture:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6013/machoaa2.jpg

Also, two different pics of the same female, taken the same day:
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/7776/chsashacond8np.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1511/sasha905bp0.jpg


i see now.. wow. what a difference

[dr2little]

Basically, yes... "she" is actually on the chain maybe once a week on average... she goes out on the chain when it isn't too hot, too cold, too wet, or too dry, and since that doesn't happen very often here, she doesn't go on the chain much. I don't like taking pictures of my dogs in the house, because they are much more photogenic outside.

Although that doesn't have anything to do with the subject or thread at hand, since the "chain" seems to be more of an issue than the dog, I figured I would go ahead and respond to it.


;) Sorry. ONLY Genetics and proper diet built that kind of muscularity:confused:

[elegy]

Well... to be honest, ethics has nothing to do with gameness (although I do not game test my dogs), it is more political brainwash and public deception than anything. And, the reason for the nickname "gamedogs" is because they are American Pit Bull Terriers, not "pitbulls" and they are game-bred dogs (the entire actual "breed", because if they are ever bred for anything else, within 2-3 generations, maybe a couple more, if you're lucky, they will no longer have any of the traits of a game dog other than the fact that they tend to make good family dogs, if bred properly). Also, to top that off, since the username "Marty" was taken, I decided on "Gamedogs" because of my website, game-dog.com (I'm not advertising, which is why it isn't a link, only explaining to try to be "helpful" if I can even call it that).

well then how do you know they're game if they haven't been fought? because you can't tell if a dog is going to be game unless you fight them, and your dog can't be "game bred" unless its parents have been fought and proven game.

my dogs are american pit bull terriers, too, and i have no idea if they're game or not, and i don't really care. i know that luce is drivey as hell, smart as a whip, and a wonderful companion, and that's what matters to me.

[dr2little]

After reading this entire thread, I feel physically sick.

I'm gonna tip toe out....so I don't STEP in any of it!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Gempress]

Hmmm. Never mind. I checked out your site and I only had to read one thread to find out what you mean by 'working'. Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly around here.

Maybe you can tell me why this thread (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17163&page=1&pp=10) seems slanted towards dog fighting, rather than against it? I cringed to read about baiting, and facing two dogs toward each other just so they'd run faster on the treadmill.

Please. Tell me you're not promoting dog fighitng over there? Maybe I'm reading that whole post wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.

ETA: I think it's pretty clear from reading THIS (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15816&page=1&pp=10&highlight=fighting) thread that I just found while riffiling through your forum, that you do indeed have folks that fight dogs there. Discussing how long a dog has to fight to make it "game" and what happens to the dogs if they "cur" or give up in a fight...yeah...I'm thinking there's no good way to explain away a thread like that.

The fact that no moderator or admin put a stop to the discussion makes me think you promote dog fighting, or at the very least passivly allow members to discuss the topic (members who clearly fight dogs) without making it clear that you DON'T advocate it.

OMG!! :mad: I just read those threads, Silverpaws.

THAT IS SO DISGUSTING!

For those who haven't seen them, the first thread was posted by somebody talking about the evils of dogfighting. It was followed immediately by many replies from people RIDICULING the post and saying how innacturate and untrue it was. I believe one poster said it looked like it was written by a "bleeding heart 14-year-old" or something like that.

The second thread was a person asking for some details on dogfighting. Somebody said they wouldn't get many replies on the topic in a public forum---PM the members instead! :mad:

I feel like I need to take a shower after reading that filth. Needless to say, I'm washing my hands of this post.

[Boemy]

I'm appalled. :mad:

[molena]

Before everyone jumps to conclusions, goes out and gets sick, washes their hands of this thread.... I'd just like to say a couple of things.

I'm a member of many pit bull forums, and the purpose of www.game-dog.com is really interesting and laudable IMO. It is one of the only sites which welcomes old-time gamedog people (which can include people for whom dogfighting is not unthinkable because they grew up with it and it was legal when they were young) AND "petbull" people, those who condemn dogfighting and for whom pit bulls are companion pets ... and everyone else (show, weight-pull, etc). The purpose is for everyone to learn from each other, because the history of the breed as a fighter is VERY important in learning to deal with the dogs of today. And even though sparks fly when you get these groups together, I think it is one of the most educational pit bull sites out there because real debate occurs (unlike many sites where everyone just pats each other on the back with the same knee-jerk opinions).

Now, I know that any mention of dogfighting promotes really strong responses, but the admin. of game-dog does NOT promote or encourage dogfighting, and the threads are supposed to be heavily moderated and MANY people have been banned for breaking those rules - but again, the idea is to promote open discussion within the bounds of the law for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES. Can you really say the history of the breed should never be discussed, is irrelevant and appalling? That's fine, but then don't go listening to the animal rights folks who have never been to a dogfight, have no interest in historical accuracy, and are chock-full of misinformation. This is a place people can get some real historical facts beyond the media's sensationalism, and although many of us don't have the stomach for it, others are interested in learning. That's still (last time I checked, although maybe not for long) part of our first amendment rights.

If you choose to keep reading past the one thread, you'll see that "working" is not a euphemism for fighting, although it could include fighting. It means performance-driven activity.

[Gamedogs]

Because of the criteria used in the standard.

Winning body builders aren't 'healthy' by usual standards either, and they know it. They push themselves to the absolute limit in order to win a competition based on criteria which are known to be unhealthy at that level. A dog with an extremely squashed up nose - if it's a pug - may win a competition but never in its life be truly comfortable.

The question is whether one feels that the potential health and wellbeing downsides of pursuing such extreme physical features in our fellow creatures, so that humans can win competitions with them, can be justified. These dogs don't look that bad, but they appear to be pushing the boundaries.

D.As I have already stated, I do not believe that showing a dog for conformation is very competitive at all, those dogs have never been pushed to any limit or boundary thereof, they didn't even get a bath before they went, it was actually a last second decision to even take them.

Hmmm. Never mind. I checked out your site and I only had to read one thread to find out what you mean by 'working'. Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly around here.

Maybe you can tell me why this thread (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17163&page=1&pp=10) seems slanted towards dog fighting, rather than against it? I cringed to read about baiting, and facing two dogs toward each other just so they'd run faster on the treadmill.

Please. Tell me you're not promoting dog fighitng over there? Maybe I'm reading that whole post wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.

ETA: I think it's pretty clear from reading THIS (http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15816&page=1&pp=10&highlight=fighting) thread that I just found while riffiling through your forum, that you do indeed have folks that fight dogs there. Discussing how long a dog has to fight to make it "game" and what happens to the dogs if they "cur" or give up in a fight...yeah...I'm thinking there's no good way to explain away a thread like that.

The fact that no moderator or admin put a stop to the discussion makes me think you promote dog fighting, or at the very least passivly allow members to discuss the topic (members who clearly fight dogs) without making it clear that you DON'T advocate it.LOL, my initial expectations and thoughts about this group are still proving to be right. Here is another thread for you to read: Discussion of dog fighting (http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13408).

And, before you start talking about "me" or what I have said here, please read my prior posts for my definition, in its usage, of the word "working" that I have used here.

well then how do you know they're game if they haven't been fought? because you can't tell if a dog is going to be game unless you fight them, and your dog can't be "game bred" unless its parents have been fought and proven game.

my dogs are american pit bull terriers, too, and i have no idea if they're game or not, and i don't really care. i know that luce is drivey as hell, smart as a whip, and a wonderful companion, and that's what matters to me.Lol, when did I or any one else say that my dogs were game? I have never said that and never will. I stated in the same post that I do not game test my dogs, meaning that I do not know if they are game or not, how did you get that I ever said my dogs were game?

[RockstarKennelz]

"...the history of the breed as a fighter is VERY important in learning to deal with the dogs of today."

Precisely. There's no erasing the history of the fighting breeds, be it APBT's, Akitas, Tosas, Shar-Peis, or any of the number of breeds that once served such purposes. Understanding that history is conducive to responsible ownership.

[colliewog]

(Gamedogs) Lol, when did I or any one else say that my dogs were game? I have never said that and never will. I stated in the same post that I do not game test my dogs, meaning that I do not know if they are game or not, how did you get that I ever said my dogs were game?

Maybe it's your username? ;)

[Gamedogs]

Maybe it's your username? ;)
As I've already explained. ;)

[Buckshot]

Lol... you can wonder all you like, but as for your so-called fact about a "3/8 inch" chain, I'd like to know where you came up with that? I also want to know what 3/8" chain you know of that has a "26,000lbs breaking strength"? Even the "working load limit" on a 3\8" grade 120 chain is 10,600lbs, which is the strongest chain, in the U.S.A. that you can buy and is less than half of what you stated. Even a 3\8" grade 43 (the grade that we use that is lighter than grade 30) is 5,400lbs WLL... the actual truth about the matter, rather than voicing your opinion and stating it as fact, is that it is a 1\4" grade 43 chain that has a WLL of 2,600lbs and weighs 0.65lbs per foot. So let's do the math here about the supposed "heavy chain"... since she is actually a house dog, and rarely ever even on a chain, she is kept on an 8 foot chain and 8 * 0.65 is 5.2lbs... not sure if that is considered heavy for just any dog, but it's like "dragging" a feather around to them. And another thing, who ever told you that my dog's collar has a "breaking strength" of anywhere near 6,000lbs?

Refer to above, although you stated it as an opinion rather than fact, the same response would be mildly appropriate.



I took that information from a rigging book. Working load limit is generally about half of breaking strength. I was wrong as it says by the website, that it isnt 26,000lbs, it is 26,400 lbs. My riggers handbook may be a bit out of date, but whats 400 lbs between friends? Working load limits may also be restricted by the hooks. I also found the link on a site so that you could see it yourself. As for personally testing the breaking strength of it, I was unable to break it with a heavily mired truck connected to a hydraulic tugger on a oil field rolloff truck using the chain as a leader. I was simply stating that the webbing strap on such heavy rigging would be the weak link since I could not see the rivets/sewing or the clasp.

http://www.kinedyne.com/flatbed/flatbed-detail.asp?FamilyName=ChainAssembly&Cat=Accessories

This one here backs it up as well. http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=breaking+strength+chain+3/8&hl=en&lr=&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2006-37,SUNA:en&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=title

I know that dragging around 3/8" chain is heavy because I often do it at work.

[doberkim]

I think it's a misconception that performance dogs need to be underweight. I

i dont think its a misconception at all. the majority of the public cannot determine their dogs correct weight and think 5-10 lbs overweight is normal.

competitors keep their dogs lean so that while active, they do not need to carry extra weight around which can cause them to break down early.


that being said, i dont see any of the new pittie people here really coming here to discuss the breed, gamedogs is purposefully being deceptive and argumentative just to **** people off. from saying that the dog spends its entire life on the couch with no exercise but has incredible muscling (the pit people i know that have dogs built like this spend hours working on the flirt pole, the treadmill, walk the dogs on a harness and encourage them to pull to build the hind end, play fetch, etc), to debating every little fact yet now answering anything.

why bother?

[Gamedogs]

I know that dragging around 3/8" chain is heavy because I often do it at work.Where are you getting its a 3/8 chain, that would break a dogs neck down, some people thinks it builds the neck up, the chain my dogs are on is 1/4 inch grade #43 chain not 3/8". 5/16" chain is to big for our breed ;)

[Buckshot]

Where are you getting its a 3/8 chain, that would break a dogs neck down, some people thinks it builds the neck up, the chain my dogs are on is 1/4 inch grade #43 chain not 3/8". 5/16" chain is to big for our breed ;)

I believe that D ring is 1/4". I know that chain on that dog is not 1/4". I came to this thread to talk rigging, not dogs because I dont know anything about dogs. Please just lay the chain across a tape measure or set of dial calipers with that dog close and snap a photo. I am often wrong but I would be suprised in this instance

[Roxy's CD]

Hmm... To be honest, I don't really know, if your condoning dog fighting or not.

I don't believe that those dogs are "pets" and just get fed really good dog food, and that's why they're in that condition.

It LOOKS more like, they aren't being fed enough vs. how much activity, whether it be walks or WP that they're doing.

Perhaps that is the "standard" of an APBT. To be honest, the standard is quite skewed. You'll read on one page, that the average weight is 40lbs-120lbs. Quite a jump if you ask me.

Personally, I would prefer my PET to have a little more weight on him. Hades is around 60lbs, he doesn't look it, you can see some ribs in particular stances (which also weighs on my mind, about the appearance of all of those dogs. The position they're in, combined with straining the muscles a particular way, can make them look much skinnier and leaner than they actually are)

You CANNOT see any backbone, he's actually quite thick and what I call bulky muscle, compared to a leaner more toned dog. But he's solid as a rock. The amount of food he gets varies all the time. If we went for an extra long walk, or played frisbee longer than usual, he gets more food. We have a basic plan for regular, or normal amount of activity and dependent on the amount of exercise he gets will affect how much more dinner he gets.

I guess the intensity of how much activity the dog is doing affects a lot as well. But I believe you stated that your dogs are "couch potatoes".

Now, Hades doesn't do a lot of INTENSE activities, but over 1 hour walks, playing in the water, at least a good half hour of playing INTENSE frisbee and he doesn't look like that. Maybe it's just not in his genes. But from the sounds of it he gets more activity than your dogs, he eats a high quality brand of food and he doesn't look anything like that!

I acknowledge that genes does play a major role, but it's not the whole cast.

Bottom line: I own an APBT possibly a "pit" mix, and I am more than happy with his weight and appearance. My vet is more than happy with his weight and growth. So, so am I :)

[planet molosser]

Ive shown working Cane Corso under judges who rate the dogs high but wont but them up for Best of breed because they can see their ribs..

I personally keep my dogs in working weight lGD all year except show season then for the 5-10 shows we do attend I use bacon and high protein food adn pasta to put that extra 5 pounds on to win a dog show.

Ive also CGC tons of Pits from weigth pull lines that look just like that dog does and has bigger chains. why because they can pull apart the biggest chains ive ever seen.

I wont go to the site thou Ive had it up to here on the dog fighting issue.
Im againest is due to years of Pit rescue and seeing horrors.
But In the research I did in books many there of the OLD PIT man did not create the Pit to be used againest Bait dogs, againest other non game breeds, to DIE , to be human aggressive ,they culled hard and did not sell pets or sell dogs for money like we do today. They were a product of those times and their are history that can not be denied.

BUT and big BUT here today NO excuse for it .

Education is the key but some times missunderstandings can happen due to media interfence.

Example I was told by the shelters i worked for , the pit underground rescue net and the media that Pits have LOCKING jaws - a different jaw set up then other breeds. The first time i passed that incorrect information on the net I was slapped down hard with correct info 10 years ago.

It is the endurance and the gameness that makes them hard to break apart plus a strong jaw it is what the breed was created for yet my / is would the pit man of yester year ever created the breed knowing the horrors that would become its future and lead to the ultimate extinction of it.

Ok my 2 cents .

[Gamedogs]

I believe that D ring is 1/4". I know that chain on that dog is not 1/4". I came to this thread to talk rigging, not dogs because I dont know anything about dogs. Please just lay the chain across a tape measure or set of dial calipers with that dog close and snap a photo. I am often wrong but I would be suprised in this instanceAs I've already stated at least twice, the chain that is on that dog in the picture, is a 1\4" chain, the only thing I lied about was the length of the chain (I took another look at the picture and she's not on her usual run), we had an extra dog that day and she was put on our 16.5' chain. I'm not taking her outside and putting the chain across a tape measure to prove a point that I really don't even have to make. Here is a picture of a grade 43 1\4" chain (actually the same chain she was on), a quarter, and a grade 70 5\16" chain (a chain that we use to tow cars).

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/Marty2k6/More%20pictures/chain-size-2post.jpg

There are the facts, you can choose to believe it or not, that's entirely up to you.

[stevinski]

omg gamedogs can u please stop replying so defensively,
we are just asking questions,

i think your girl looks extremely impressive when compared to the high amount of porely bred pits out there

is the matrix lines in her?

[Buckshot]

I might believe that the 5/16" chain is in the picture with the dog. Its hard for me to tell on the dog because Im not that familiar with the dogs size. It just doesnt seem to me that the chain on the left was used because the chain in the picture with the dog doesnt look rusty and the link dia to gap looks more in line with the chain on the right. Thanks for going to the effort to get the shot though

[Gamedogs]

is the matrix lines in her?No...

[Amstaffer]

There are several ways to get a dog to look like that

1. Genetics is part
2. Diet
3. Exercise
4. Hydration (low levels)

With that in mind it is not healthy long term for dogs (or humans) to have that low of body fat. Body fat protects the nervous system as well as the brain. I used to lift a lot and my doctor gave me the whole rundown on the dangers of a very low fat diet and keeping my body fat percent too low.

These dogs have zero back up if they were to fall ill and I believe that it stresses their bodies to maintain such a low bad fat percentage. They might have stamina as young dogs because of their exercise routine but this condition will catch up with them IMHO.

If your current vet doesn't believe this...maybe get a second opinion.

The question I have is very simple; why do your dogs have to keep in such extreme condition? Pulling? Show? I have been a casual observer of both and I have seen many very successful dogs in both that didn't maintain such maximized fitness.

If the condition you have achieved with these dogs is for vanity or vicariousness please reconsider for the overall and longterm good of the dog.

[silverpawz]

LOL, my initial expectations and thoughts about this group are still proving to be right.

If your initial impression was that we might be against dog fighting....good. I'm glad you we're right.

That thread you posted only serves to prove that you do in fact have members there that fight their dogs. Apparently, that's okay, as long as they don't talk openly about it on the forum? No attempt to educate them on why this is wrong, just "bit your tongue and we can all get along"? Nice.

Although I do not do it, I commend those DOGMEN that persist in keeping the sport alive even when those we thought as "friends in the sport" turn cur and tuck their tails in and run the other way. As long as it is done professionally and with care to the athlete canines, it is ok by me.

This quote above from the thread you posted makes me shudder. He's basically saying, "Hey, I thinks dog fighting is a-okay, but no problem boss I won't talk about here".

So wrong, in so many ways.

I for one will try not to speak of our sport on this site solely because it is the will of the owner. It does not mean that I will stop posting my sentiments on any topic while staying a "gentleman". Everyone should remain gentleman-like as our sport is suppose to be a gentlemen's sport.

Sigh. Apparently dog fighting is a gentlemans sport...feel free to picture the word 'gentleman' dripping with sarcasm.

" TRUE dogmen keep their business off the internet instead of bragging about it like little boys in the locker room."

Exactly!
Remember, "loose lips sink ships"...

that's the "under lying" message here.

This was from a Super Moderator on your board. A mod! "Saying go ahead and fight your dogs, but don't tell us about it!"

Wow. Don't even know what to say to that.

[Amstaffer]

Sigh. Apparently dog fighting is a gentlemans sport...feel free to picture the word 'gentleman' dripping with sarcasm.
agreed....

Perhaps this is OT but I need to vent after reading some of the posts in the Game-dog forum and post here.

Dogfighting is not a sport and the people who do it are cowards and have their noble dogs do and act in ways they wish they could.

Dogfighting scum wish to be tough, brave and game....they are none of those. They are weak, cowards and have zero heart.

If these "gentleman" really wanted to show these traits they breed their dogs to have....They would join the UFC and prove they don't need a dog to validate their "manhood".

I get so :mad: :mad: :mad: when I hear dog fighting "gentlemen" spew their Bullsh!t it drives me nuts.

[Delisay]

Sigh. Apparently dog fighting is a gentlemans sport...feel free to picture the word 'gentleman' dripping with sarcasm.
Yes, in the same manner as "gentleman's club" - the last place on earth to find an actual gentleman ... just like at the dog fight. It's an extreme misappropriation of the term in an embarrassing effort to camouflage an opposite reality. Then add the word "sport" to further distract, because it involves no actual movement of the human body.

Gentleman's sports, hmm... Polo, Golf, old English Cricket... Try those!

D.

[Boemy]

There's a difference between understanding a breed's history versus approving of its original purpose and an even bigger difference between USING IT for its original purpose. Do you think chow owners should eat their dogs?

[molena]

nobody is here to defend dogfighting. few people defend it on game-dog, although it does happen (usually by people in other countries where it is legal - should they be kicked off the board?)

but still you should get your facts straight. although it seems to be established that most of you do not have any interest in hearing anything that falls outside your comfort zone, the historic bloodsport of dogfighting did indeed involve human movement - handling a dog was very hands-on and active and required knowledge and skill. the point in calling dogfighting a gentleman's sport was only to insist that there was a code of ethics and strict rules which governed it... whether you believe it and like it or not.

i also take issue with D's anglocentric, europhile references to "gentlemen's sports" (cricket, etc.) what would you say about hunting? that "sport" is still protected by rich white folks, and thus it remains legal.

[2nd2none]

After reading over this entire thread, it is my opinion that the dog in the first pic looks in great condition. She's an excellent example of a dog that is well cared for by her owner. The chain/set up is also an example/indication of an owner that is not only aware of his dog's strength, but its choice to be used, both demonstrates and denotes, to me, proper APBT ownership. As an owner of 7 other APBT's, I believe Gamedogs said, it is IMPERRATIVE to keep the dogs seperated from one another. Owners of APBT's are aware of this breeds propensity for the possibility of dog fighting and dog on dog aggression. Owners should always be prepared in the event any aggression issues arise. They MUST be prepared. This chain and set up shows owner responsiblity, in my opinion.

I also applaud this forum for being so open minded and inquisitive in regards to the APBT. We all read the stories. We all hear the headlines...This thread has remained civil and level headed. Very refreshing. :)

I know dog fighting, post 1976, is a felony, in most, if not all the states right now, so, I read with interest the remarks regarding the threads contained in the Game-Dogs forums. IMO, that forum doesn't either sound like it promotes or even encourages dog fighting. If anything, and I quote,... "Pit Bull Community is dedicated to the preservation of the pit bull in its original form as a game-bred dog and in its modern incarnations as a loving companion pet and top competitor in weight pull competitions and conformation shows. We are opposed to all forms of animal cruelty, and do not promote any illegal activities, but we celebrate the history of the pit bull and value its qualities of courage, strength and tenacity as the essence of the breed. We are therefore against all forms of breed-specific legislation, and work to protect the constitutional rights of pit bull owners".
I imagine if people are having their own "private" conversations", then that's certainly their business, and mods and administrators cannot possibly monitor all that goes on behind, or under the scenes. What they can do, however, is relay to people/their members, the seriousness and the cause/effect of their actions, and to reiterate to those that frequent that board that any "talk" of dog fighting is not only against the law and the rules of that forum, but can have some serious consequences, as well... and discourage it.

As far as the dog in the other pic, it's amazing, the effects of lighting and repositioning, and how they can affect the look of a picture. The dogs look to be in good shape. Agreed, too many animals today suffer form overweight/health related problems. I see this on a daily basis...:rolleyes:

Overall, a very interesting thread, with lots of good information regarding the very misunderstood American Pit Bull Terrier, once "America's Beloved Hero"...

[tommyt]

I find it funny that so many people criticize Gamedogs for lying or not telling the whole truth concerning Lil Bit and her size. That dog is an absolute house dog. Gamedogs did not leave anything out or skew the truth in any way. Genetics is the reason she looks like that. What is so hard to believe? There are humans the same way. I eat all day, every day. However, I don't have an ounce of fat on me. I don't work out and you can see muscle striations all over me. Genetics makes me this way. The same thing goes for that dog.
Also, a few visible ribs does not mean that the dog is starved. NO muscle loss has occurred. Once a dog is starving, their bodies will break down muscle for food. That is obviously not the case in that picture.

As mentioned earlier, people are used to seeing overweight dogs and they feel that it is healthy. Therefore, they think that a dog such as Gamedog's are starved.
2 days prior to my dog's last show I took him to the vet. Every one of the vets loved him and had good things to say about his condition. However, I was getting criticized by various neighbors throughout the week for being "too skinny". Nevertheless, the dog took 1st on one day and 2nd on the other. There is a big difference between working a dog to its full potential and being starved and a trained eye can see the difference easily.

[RockstarKennelz]

There's a difference between understanding a breed's history versus approving of its original purpose and an even bigger difference between USING IT for its original purpose. Do you think chow owners should eat their dogs?

Depends. Who are any of us to judge? Many societies find it appalling to slaughter cattle, goats, pigs, chickens, or whatever else by the millions. Some societies deem human cannibalism perfectly acceptable. Individual values and ethics are instilled predominately by the society the individual happens to be a part of. Us cocky Americans have been indoctrined to believe that we are the "good guys," and somehow the rest of the world should conform to our moral standards. If you don't see things our way, we just might bomb your third-world ass. We're all entitled to believe what we so choose, but none of us are in any position to judge another for his/her beliefs.
We are all far from perfect (well, except maybe for my wife;))

Anyway, is this thread a moral debate on dogfighting, or is it a discussion about conditioned dogs vs unhealthy dogs? If the direction keeps shifting like it is, pretty soon I'm gonna go off on a tangent about the Seahawks losing today:)

[silverpawz]

few people defend it on game-dog, although it does happen (usually by people in other countries where it is legal - should they be kicked off the board?)

Call me crazy, but yes. If someone is advocating illegal activites then they should not be allowed on the board. I guess we have different standards for what an online community should be.

Yes, dog fighting is part of the breed history and if you want to discuss that history knock yourself out. Perfectly fine. But when it's very obvious that the discussion is based on activities in this time....not okay.

The chain/set up is also an example/indication of an owner that is not only aware of his dog's strength, but its choice to be used, both demonstrates and denotes, to me, proper APBT ownership. As an owner of 7 other APBT's, I believe Gamedogs said, it is IMPERRATIVE to keep the dogs seperated from one another. Owners of APBT's are aware of this breeds propensity for the possibility of dog fighting and dog on dog aggression. Owners should always be prepared in the event any aggression issues arise. They MUST be prepared. This chain and set up shows owner responsiblity, in my opinion.

So the only way to be 'responsible' in owning a pit is to keep him chained? Since when? If you absolutly cannot have your dogs in the house because they'll rip eachother apart, then build some good size kennels.
Of course...that would cost more money than just buying a chain....

[RD]

Here's another pic of the male in the first picture:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6013/machoaa2.jpg

I'm not a Pit Bull person, but please tell me . . . How does this dog fit the standard? I see now that he is not pitifully thin, but structurally he is not balanced, IMO. I would be afraid to let a dog built like this do something like weight-pull. Perhaps with the massive head and undersized body, he'd be a better fighting dog (?? I know nothing about the "sport", so correct me if I'm wrong) but he doesn't look sound to me.

The other dogs shown in this thread do appear to be in good shape. I understand that camera angle and lighting can have a lot to do with how the dog appears. However, I think the comments about that female being just a pet fed high quality food is *difficult to believe*. My pets are fed high quality food. I know pet Pit Bulls that are fed high quality food. The only Pits that I know of with that kind of muscle on them are the dogs that are extensively exercised in order to build muscle. Treadmilling, weight pulling, etc. NO WAY can a couch potato build up that kind of muscle, and I don't care how genetically perfect they are. A kid from a long line of bodybuilders that doesn't work out will never be in bodybuilder shape. Not even close.

I entered this thread with an open mind but I am disgusted that those of you who claim to love these dogs are in agreement with letting them rip each other apart for entertainment. I have learned very little from your posts, all I've gotten out of them was the impression that you are not being entirely honest with us.

I would rather listen to someone who can state their opinions and beliefs honestly, take the heat from the people who disagree rather than ridiculing them, and still attempt to educate.

[pit4life]

1. i dont think u should be useing pics of peoples dogs. That is a game bred dog, her name is Lil Bit and she has never been worked. She is naturally like that.

2. The dog on the other topic is not skinny. He is a game fighting dog, get over it, GR CH MachoBuck here are other pics of how "skinny" he is-

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/gamedgoz/c62d6a14.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/gamedgoz/01145f10.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/gamedgoz/3a9cbabc.jpg

All of u dont seem to know what a REAL APBT is...:popcorn:

[silverpawz]

He is a game fighting dog, get over it, GR CH MachoBuck here are other pics of how "skinny" he is-

Good to know he's a fighting dog. Thanks for confirming for us.

[tommyt]

I'm not a Pit Bull person, but please tell me . . . How does this dog fit the standard? I see now that he is not pitifully thin, but structurally he is not balanced, IMO. I would be afraid to let a dog built like this do something like weight-pull.

The other dogs shown in this thread do appear to be in good shape. I understand that camera angle and lighting can have a lot to do with how the dog appears. However, I think the comments about that female being just a pet fed high quality food is complete and utter bullshit. My pets are fed high quality food. I know pet Pit Bulls that are fed high quality food. The only Pits that I know of with that kind of muscle on them are the dogs that are extensively exercised in order to build muscle. Treadmilling, weight pulling, etc. NO WAY can a couch potato build up that kind of muscle, and I don't care how genetically perfect they are. A kid from a long line of bodybuilders that doesn't work out will never be in bodybuilder shape. Not even close.

I entered this thread with an open mind but I am disgusted that those of you who claim to love these dogs are in agreement with letting them rip each other apart for entertainment. I have learned very little from your posts, all I've gotten out of them was the impression that you are not being entirely honest with us.

I would rather listen to someone who can state their opinions and beliefs honestly, take the heat from the people who disagree, and still attempt to educate.


I know for a fact that Lil Bit is not worked. It is not utter bs. Just because you don't believe it, it does not make it true. The reason why your housedogs don't look like Lil Bit is because they are bred completely different. Lil Bit is an extremely well bred dog bred from generations of heavily worked hunting dogs. Why would he lie about it?

You have to remember, these are dogs. Not humans. A dog's muscles does not rebuild like a human's. A human can work out hard and his/her muscles will come back larger and stronger. However, with a dog, that won't happen. A dog's size comes from genetics. A dog that weightpulls for 8 months every day will not gain much muscle size. I doubt that it will even be noticeable.

[pit4life]

Good to know he's a fighting dog. Thanks for confirming for us.

He is at conditioned weight for a fight.

Just because i live with fat dogs.

I only came on this forum to inform u not to us Lil Bit or MachoBucks pictures. ;)

[tommyt]

Pit4Life

That picture of Lil Bit was posted by the owner!

[pit4life]

Ok, good to know thanx Tommyt!!

[Delisay]

...it does happen (usually by people in other countries where it is legal...).
"Other" than where???

i also take issue with D's anglocentric, europhile references to "gentlemen's sports" (cricket, etc.) what would you say about hunting? that "sport" is still protected by rich white folks, and thus it remains legal..
Anglocentric europhile??! That was entirely your psychological creation!!...and surpisingly hypocritical given the 'Amerocentrism' of your prior sentence. (Seems you have a predjudice against rich white folk too, despite using the term 'gentleman' which originated from them.)

But fine, add Sepak Takraw to the list if that helps you, or whatever else. Still no-one gets bloodied in it. Hunting any animal that one isn't going to eat, or isn't dangerous vermin, is uncivilised in my view, so it depends where the fox hunting is being done.

D.

[Renee750il]

Call me crazy, but yes. If someone is advocating illegal activites then they should not be allowed on the board. I guess we have different standards for what an online community should be.

Yes, dog fighting is part of the breed history and if you want to discuss that history knock yourself out. Perfectly fine. But when it's very obvious that the discussion is based on activities in this time....not okay.

Stepping aside from my abhorrence of any sort of animal fighting, be it dog fighting, cock fighting, bear baiting, etc. it must be remembered that the internet - and many forums - are international communities and even though an activity is illegal and considered unethical in one part of the world, there are other societies with differing laws and views. We may not like it. We may not agree. But that's the way it is. We can make rules within our own forum communities and enforce them here for our own reasons, but to simply say something cannot be mentioned because it is illegal doesn't wash.

[molena]

Call me crazy, but yes. If someone is advocating illegal activites then they should not be allowed on the board. I guess we have different standards for what an online community should be.

Yes, dog fighting is part of the breed history and if you want to discuss that history knock yourself out. Perfectly fine. But when it's very obvious that the discussion is based on activities in this time....not okay.



So the only way to be 'responsible' in owning a pit is to keep him chained? Since when? If you absolutly cannot have your dogs in the house because they'll rip eachother apart, then build some good size kennels.
Of course...that would cost more money than just buying a chain....


my point was that people who defend dogfighting online are often not doing anything illegal IN THEIR COUNTRIES. they could be banned immediately for being so arrogant and backwards as to come from somewhere else, or we could attempt to communicate with people about their lives and values, while asking people to please respect the rules of the board (which is exactly what Marty did.)


many people with pit bulls believe chains are far better containment mechanisms than kennels. this is discussed constantly in the ADBA club and it isn't about money (another classist comment!) dogs on proper tie-outs usually have more square footage than in kennels, and they tend to use the space more efficiently. of course, the media will have everyone believing that crates are perfectly humane and chains are cruel - but i know plenty of people whose dogs are crated upwards of 10 hours during the day, and then again sometimes at night, so their owners can keep up their power jobs, and then post online about how horrible chains are... completely brainwashed and hypocritical.


and yes, Delisay, I was speaking to this group as if we are in the US and taking for granted our Western cultural values and laws. this was before I read Renee's and Rockstar's fine posts.

[RD]

I know for a fact that Lil Bit is not worked. It is not utter bullshit. Just because you don't believe it, it does not make it true. The reason why your housedogs don't look like Lil Bit is because they are bred completely different. Lil Bit is an extremely well bred dog bred from generations of heavily worked hunting dogs. Why would he lie about it?

You have to remember, these are dogs. Not humans. A dog's muscles does not rebuild like a human's. A human can work out hard and his/her muscles will come back larger and stronger. However, with a dog, that won't happen. A dog's size comes from genetics. A dog that weightpulls for 8 months every day will not gain much muscle size. I doubt that it will even be noticeable.
1.) My housedogs do not look like her because they aren't Pit Bulls. ;)
2.) Perhaps then, this is a case of the owner using lighting and camera angle to make her look like she's more muscular than she really is.
3.) Human OR dog, if muscles are not used, they will not develop to that extent. That bitch did not get that physique from walking around the house and sitting on the sofa.

[Dani]

Dogmen? A gentlemen's sport? The whole don't-ask-don't-tell mentality? We've been reading Richard Stratton, haven't we? Lol.

[blue]

I know for a fact that Lil Bit is not worked. It is not utter bullshit.

To this point you and other new members where doing a great job making up for Gamedogs lack of tact and info.

I like to swear and toss profanities around with the best of them, just not here.

[RD]

I apologize, Blue, it was me that started it with that statement. i'll edit it out.

[RockstarKennelz]

I'm not a Pit Bull person, but please tell me . . . How does this dog fit the standard? I see now that he is not pitifully thin, but structurally he is not balanced, IMO. I would be afraid to let a dog built like this do something like weight-pull. .

Nonetheless, he is famed internationally because of his athleticism.

The other dogs shown in this thread do appear to be in good shape. I understand that camera angle and lighting can have a lot to do with how the dog appears. However, I think the comments about that female being just a pet fed high quality food is complete and utter bullshit. My pets are fed high quality food. I know pet Pit Bulls that are fed high quality food. The only Pits that I know of with that kind of muscle on them are the dogs that are extensively exercised in order to build muscle. Treadmilling, weight pulling, etc. NO WAY can a couch potato build up that kind of muscle, and I don't care how genetically perfect they are. A kid from a long line of bodybuilders that doesn't work out will never be in bodybuilder shape. Not even close.

Well, since I bred her, I'm flattered that you must think I've achieved the impossible;). She has two sisters and a brother that look much like her, yet they were raised in kennels with exercise consisting of romps in the yard, and leash-walking. Although Lil Bit is a house dog, she is the antithesis of a lazy couch potato.

I entered this thread with an open mind but I am disgusted that those of you who claim to love these dogs are in agreement with letting them rip each other apart for entertainment. I have learned very little from your posts, all I've gotten out of them was the impression that you are not being entirely honest with us.

I would rather listen to someone who can state their opinions and beliefs honestly, take the heat from the people who disagree, and still attempt to educate.

I don't see anyone here condoning such a thing.

[tommyt]

1.) My housedogs do not look like her because they aren't Pit Bulls. ;)
2.) Perhaps then, this is a case of the owner using lighting and camera angle to make her look like she's more muscular than she really is.
3.) Human OR dog, if muscles are not used, they will not develop to that extent. That bitch did not get that physique from walking around the house and sitting on the sofa.


1. Oh
2. She actually looks ALOT better and much more muscular in person. No camera angles or lighting tricks. If anything the angle and lighting hurt the picture.
3. That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. However, you may want to do some research because I and many thousands of APBT owners have seen otherwise hundreds of times.

[tommyt]

To this point you and other new members where doing a great job making up for Gamedogs lack of tact and info.

I like to swear and toss profanities around with the best of them, just not here.


Read RD's post. It was a direct reply to his/her comment that Gamedogs was speaking "utter bu****". However, I do apologize.

[silverpawz]

Stepping aside from my abhorrence of any sort of animal fighting, be it dog fighting, cock fighting, bear baiting, etc. it must be remembered that the internet - and many forums - are international communities and even though an activity is illegal and considered unethical in one part of the world, there are other societies with differing laws and views. We may not like it. We may not agree. But that's the way it is. We can make rules within our own forum communities and enforce them here for our own reasons, but to simply say something cannot be mentioned because it is illegal doesn't wash.

You're right. I should have put in my opinion it's not okay. If someone wants to allow that kind of talk on their own forum that's their right. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it though.

[Delisay]

and yes, Delisay, I was speaking to this group as if we are in the US and taking for granted our Western cultural values and laws. am I wrong?
Well you told me in no uncertain terms that I was (for merely mentioning traditional gentleman's sports), so I don't know - I'll leave that up to you!!

D.

[RD]

First of all, thank you and TommyT for being polite in your replies, rather than defensive. Questions:

Machobuck shows athleticism in what areas, precisely? He looks ripped, but what does he DO?

After reading your statements, I am more inclined to believe that Lil Bit simply isn't as "ripped" as she appeared in that first photo. She probably is in good shape, but I simply can't imagine a dog looking like she does in that photo, just by being a house pet. Perhaps I was wrong and it was just the miracle of photography that made her look that way. Sorry, maybe I'm just set in my ways as a pet owner. I have a 2 year old dog that, at the peak of his working season, would run about 15 miles, nonstop. I know what a dog in good shape is. My dog developed BIG muscles after all that running. He also lost the majority of his body fat. It's my EXPERIENCE that muscles develop with exercise.
As for her never being worked, I just have a hard time believing that. No offense if it's true, it's just my opinion.

I am not seeing anybody outright condoning the sport of dogfighting like they did on the game-dog board. What I am seeing is a lot of avoidance and half-answers. Most dog lovers shudder with disgust when dog fighting is brought up. Yet, oddly, none of you have shown that type of reaction. Perhaps it's because you are used to it in the breed, but . . . I suppose I expected a stronger response against it from the supposedly responsible Pit Bull owners.

Edit: I'm out for now. I don't want to ruffle any feathers nor do I want to get in any trouble with the mods here.

[blue]

Read RD's post. It was a direct reply to his/her comment that Gamedogs was speaking "utter bu****". However, I do apologize.

My appologies for not reading the quote or her original post better, thank you.

I apologize, Blue, it was me that started it with that statement. i'll edit it out.

RD thank you for editting that.

[2nd2none]

So the only way to be 'responsible' in owning a pit is to keep him chained? Since when? If you absolutly cannot have your dogs in the house because they'll rip eachother apart, then build some good size kennels.
Of course...that would cost more money than just buying a chain....

no, never said the word "only". a good/proper chain set up is a part of being a good/responsible APBT owner.

...part...

[silverpawz]

no, never said the word "only". a good/proper chain set up is a part of being a good/responsible APBT owner.

I don't understand how using a chain can be considered better than a kennel? Maybe if you get the smallest run size then sure, a chain might give better square footage, BUT one can easily buy two large kennels and merge them together. That alone would give the dog a huge amount of space. I can't possibly see how chaining would be better than that.

Not to mention that if someone has dogs that are tearing each other up on a regualr basis, maybe they should only have one dog. Then they shouldn't have a problem keeping him in the house. Just my opinion of course...

[molena]

I am not seeing anybody outright condoning the sport of dogfighting like they did on the game-dog board. What I am seeing is a lot of avoidance and half-answers. Most dog lovers shudder with disgust when dog fighting is brought up. Yet, oddly, none of you have shown that type of reaction. Perhaps it's because you are used to it in the breed, but . . . I suppose I expected a stronger response against it from the supposedly responsible Pit Bull owners.

uhm... avoidance and half-answers? from what i see, the pit bull owners here have been nothing but patient and forthcoming, despite repeated questions on everything from facts to innuendo (and those mingled with insults.) Gamedogs has been challenged in post after post as to the condition of his own dog! i'm outta here.

[tommyt]

First of all, thank you and TommyT for being polite in your replies, rather than defensive. Questions:

Machobuck shows athleticism in what areas, precisely? He looks ripped, but