Some Pit Education

[Amstaffer]

DR- why are you sorry?

It's human to be disgusted by someone who would put their own personal pleasure above the life of a being they deemed fit to bring into the world.

Sounds to me like:

1) They are breeding too many dogs

2) Their program is ineffective. If you're producing so many sub-par dogs that the only way you can effectively "deal" with them is by killing them...well then, your program isn't all that good, is it? I'd do a bit more research into my lines before breeding another litter if that was the kind of outcome I was getting. But then again I've always been taught that nothing's worth doing if you're going to do it half-a$$ed.

At any rate, I'm always going to be comfortable with the fact that I can be proud of EVERY dog I produce, whether or not they are show/working quality. If you're program looks good only because you kill the dogs you deem "trash," then your program sucks, frankly.

Meh, I'm pretty sure I'm done with this. Chaining your dogs is one thing, killing your dogs because you aren't bright enough to come up with a fool-proof puppy contract/ make reasonable relationships with potential puppy-owners is another.


Excellent Post!

Anyone who thinks of any dog as "Junk" or "Trash" is seeing themselves in that dog. They are not real dog lovers and Chazhound is for dog LOVERS.
To Cull is to kill. There is no reason not to spay/neuter and insure your "mistake" has a good quality life.




:confused: :confused:

I have a question to the new members who are Gamedog fans and chain their dogs outside 24/7

Where is your family hearth? Meaning where is the culture you were raised in have the longest ties to? You might currently be living in say... Wisconsin but are most of your relatives from Alabama?

I really think that in many rural areas in the South dogs are looked at much differently than in the North.

I am just wondering...not trying to slam anyone.

[2nd2none]

2nd2none said:

"2006, another year added to many with a "pitbull" problem"...

To which I replied:


I am racked with a curious feeling: hefty embarrassment mixed equally with the urge to giggle. In case anyone is up for a little comic relief- I misunderstood the angle 2nd2none was taking and thought she was truly one of those people who felt the problem lies with the breed itself (there are so many).
So here's the punchline: we are buddies from the same forum.

Go ahead Suk, take your licks- I deserve em :)



nope, N/P !
as long as everyone is CLEAR on where I'm coming from, no worries, imo.
APBT's and motorcycles=two things I ADVIDLEY love. NO question. No dispute.
Period!!!!
plus Marty pays me the "big bucks" to moderate "over there"!!!!!:D ;)

[Amstaffer]

lol You have never met my Am Staff. He likes "his" dogs, and puppies. But that is it. He wants to kill other dogs even when he sees them a mile away. Does he act like a slobbering fool? NO. But be shakes and whines and never breaks eye contact with the other dog till it is out of site. He has been trained to mind me and he does. So we don't have any problems. But if I was not present it would be a WHOLE different ballgame. So IMO they havent done a very good job taking the DA out of Am Staffs. Also the kennel I got him from has some very HOT Am Staffs. He does NOT breed for DA the dogs are just that way, because all Am Staffs roots DO go back to the APBT and IMO it isn't as easy as most on here are trying to push to just breed out whatever you dont like in a dog.

As a whole Amstaff are getting better (DA). I have seen Chessies do the samething your Amstaff does.

[2nd2none]

It is amazing to me that some of you can sit here and say "we have a passion for this breed" and this and that, but yet when, even though you bred these dogs, if they are not up to "the standards" they are regarded as "trash" or "junk":yikes: :rolleyes: .

I have been fine with the rest of this thread but this is truly disturbing!


perhaps the thinking here is:
there are already WAAAAAY too many "pit bulls" that are
1) bred
2)overbred
3)flooding the shelters
4)homeless and wandering the streets
5) BSL'd out of their own cities/towns
...shall I go on? the list will add two more pages to this thread.
This breed has "problems" because of all the above reasons and more. When dogs were sufficiently culled, this "problem", never was.

IMO, it's quality of life versus quantity. I wonder how all the "pit bulls" (not to mention all the other animals) overflooding the shelters today, feels about the "quality" of their life....over 200 "pit bulls" are PTS in CA aLONE on a daily basis. Culling helps to control and regulate this "problem" imo.
Why add to an already overwhelming problem?http://www.itsmeowornever.org/homeless.html

[dr2little]

perhaps the thinking here is:
there are already WAAAAAY too many "pit bulls" that are
1) bred
2)overbred
3)flooding the shelters
4)homeless and wandering the streets
5) BSL'd out of their own cities/towns
...shall I go on? the list will add two more pages to this thread.
This breed has "problems" because of all the above reasons and more. When dogs were sufficiently culled, this "problem", never was.

IMO, it's quality of life versus quantity. I wonder how all the "pit bulls" (not to mention all the other animals) overflooding the shelters today, feels about the "quality" of their life....over 200 "pit bulls" are PTS in CA aLONE on a daily basis. Culling helps to control and regulate this "problem" imo.
Why add to an already overwhelming problem?http://www.itsmeowornever.org/homeless.html

If "enthusiasts are so concerned about these dogs....STOP BREEDING! Why justify killing when the simpler and much more effective way to address the overpopulation is to simply stop adding dogs to this planet. Breeding the perfect dog does not justify killing the ones who don't measure up, it JUST DOESN'T! Wouldn't the love for this breed cause people to rescue instead of breeding and killing...humans can talk themselves into believing anything is RIGHT if it suits their purposes.:rolleyes: :mad:

[elegy]

i call bullsh*t.

the overpopulation problem is the result of people breeding indiscriminately. culling would not stop the problem. these people WANT the dogs they're producing beause there's a MARKET for these dogs. people buy them. being more responsible about breeding and placement would stop the problem. not being so freaking greedy would help, too.

if you don't want to add to the problem, don't breed so freaking many dogs. if you get "sub-par" dogs place them in homes with spay/neuter contracts.

so much about this thread disgusts me. i hope that as a pit bull owner i am never EVER seen as this kind of person.

[Evilive]

And for the record, I have never in my life dealt with an APBT or any other PROPERLY bred "pit bull" bred having entropian. Of course that is something that might pop up with these 100+lb crossbred mutts....................


Being properly bred doesnt always have anything to do with Entropia. IT can be also caused by eye injury, bad allergies can cause the swelling of the inner eyelid which without attention can cause it to curl inward, and infact, many times pups will have it and it will and can cure itself depending on the severity. Its not always a genetic defect. There can be generations of never having it and yes, it will occasionaly just "pop up", too. that is for all bully breeds of dogs.

[dr2little]

i call bullsh*t.

the overpopulation problem is the result of people breeding indiscriminately. culling would not stop the problem. these people WANT the dogs they're producing beause there's a MARKET for these dogs. people buy them. being more responsible about breeding and placement would stop the problem. not being so freaking greedy would help, too.

if you don't want to add to the problem, don't breed so freaking many dogs. if you get "sub-par" dogs place them in homes with spay/neuter contracts.

so much about this thread disgusts me. i hope that as a pit bull owner i am never EVER seen as this kind of person.

We may not always agree elegy but its abundantly clear that you are NOT ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

[LuvinBullies]

Common theme in your post and your comrades....if someone disagrees with you there are idiots, liars or clueless. :rolleyes:

Stop it. Look at your post. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere in that post was the word idiot, liar or clueless stated or directed at anyone. And one of your common themes here is to put words right into other people's mouths. If you misunderstand something someone said that is fine, but to out and out say someone said something they did not is child's play and won't get anyone anywhere. Admittedly there is a sharp truth in the post which is suggestive that some people without authority to speak about the APBT are doing so here, and no one likes to be told they don't know what they are talking about-I don't, and neither do you. But like it or not- when we choose to run our mouths we must expect to eventually be heard by someone at some point who may just know a little more than us about what we are rapping about. In order to learn, we must concede to those qualified to teach. Learning only comes to those who listen, and there is a strong tendency here for people to guard their pride through defensive gab gabbing. I used to be armed with lots of the false knowledge running rampant about the APBT- hell it wasn't even a year ago I would have stood there with my hands on my hips and tell you that any chained pit bull anywhere was a ticking time bomb. Yes, I thought so because I let myself be led astray by people who knew NOTHING about the breed!!! Number crunchers and statistical jargon were my sources of information. The only true source of information about the APBT comes from those who know his entire history up down and sideways back from the ancient Mastiff guard dogs and wild game hunting terriers right up to this very minute. These enthusiasts know who has owned these dogs, bred these dogs, and why they did it, and know all the historical facts which make the APBT what he is today, and where everything went wrong and people started to twist the facts. If you are not one of these people, then you have no authority to state what is right or wrong for the APBT.
The journey of accumulating knowledge about the APBT does NOT begin amongst modern day pet owners who claim to know what is right and wrong for dogs, and include the APBT in their declarations. I used to think it did- but that is not the case.

[mydawgs]

I would be shocked if you are or even been in MENSA because of your flawed logic (you must have done real well on the puzzle part)

You clearly don't even understand the word idiot.

You are mean spirited but that is all part of be a "True Dogman"

Please post a link of this study you speak of, I would like to read it.

You talk about me "spewing" garbage, most of your posts are attacks on me and my dogs.

Before you and your Dogmen invaded this forum I thought that maybe the state of the Pit Bull had a chance to get better but I see you are more organized and rooted than I thought. You "True Dogmen" will continue to breed agressive dogs and the image of this dog will continue to haunt all Bullies.

Bottom line....The violence side of the Pit Bull cannot continue. Our society is changing and will not tolerate it any longer. You and your gameness nonsense will seal not only the fate of your dogs but all the other bullies that just happen to look remotely like yours. :(


Or here is another way to assess the current situation, based on historical data. If the APBT were left to the "true dogmen" as you have called them, and we let things return to the way things were before the explosion of the variants of the APBT, the Am Staff being one variant, then I guess the whole Bad Rap with Pit Bulls would dissapear as quickly as the decline of these fantastic dogs appeared, because before the late 70's and 80's the Pit Bull was not an issue and the Dogmen and Women -- or as I like to call them, the Keepers of the Breed had no issues. That is a fact. Now I love Staffs...my baby girl is a Staff, so I have no issues with the variants.

One of the conclusions I have come to after a couple years of intensive research is your use of the word game. Game is not a good thing or a bad thing, it is simply a characteristic of the APBT. The choice to villanize this characteristic is a human deed. Game simply means to continue regardless of the circumstances, and as all Pit Bulls have their heritage in the Bull and Terrier dogs of England and Ireland...there are 100s of years of breeding for this characteristic. I believe..(MY BELIEF..cannot be proven) that every pit bull most likely has some remnent of game...some have more than others, your Staffs may have a certain level of game....it simply is IMO, it is not inherently good or bad...game does not equate to aggression or violence...it is simply a characteristic like ability to scent in a hound. So IMO the salvation of the breed is true understanding and acceptance, with these two things the goodness of the old ways can be leveraged and the knowledge of the current can be a plus.....to deny this dogs heritage, and the mistakes that we humans have made in perpetuating dogs that cannot or will not be understood, therfore controlled is what is bringing the breed to it's knees. To ignore the Keepers is like ignoring the wisdom of our elderly...lots of knowledge there...needs to be used and applied, that is how we as intelligent humans solve problems.

[2nd2none]

If "enthusiasts are so concerned about these dogs....STOP BREEDING! Why justify killing when the simpler and much more effective way to address the overpopulation is to simply stop adding dogs to this planet. Breeding the perfect dog does not justify killing the ones who don't measure up, it JUST DOESN'T! Wouldn't the love for this breed cause people to rescue instead of breeding and killing...humans can talk themselves into believing anything is RIGHT if it suits their purposes.:rolleyes: :mad:

it's the "Enthusiasts" who breed to BETTER this breed. If THEY stopped breeding, the quality of this breed would continue to spiral down into a vast nothingness.
It's the idiots who "think" they know all about "breeding" that have created this mess.... Yes agreed, THEY should NOT breed and spay and neuter their "PETS"!!!!
for sure, ...rolls eyes....:rolleyes:

[Miakoda]

1) I'm an undergrad- I don't have a true breeding program yet, as it would be impossible to do a great job with that AND run x-country and track for a competitive division one school, AND take o-chem, physics, neurobiology, marine bio, finish my thesis, maintain a long-distance relationship with someone who lives on another continent, and continue training my current dogs.

I do have one breeding-quality bitch, and she has had ONE litter of 3 puppies. I know the "fates" of each of these puppies. I guess your idea of TRASH and mine are completely different, but if you'd like to have a look at the TRASH I send to OTHER people, feel free to take a look at the number 16
Shiba Inu in this country, breed standings. A champion in 3 registries, with multiple group wins and BOBs over the number one Shiba in the nation. Yeah...I'm pretty sure his owner is just SICK of the mess she's having to clean up with him...

So I'll thank you not to refer to my animals as trash. Simply because you do not have the means or where-withall to locate appropriate homes for dogs that do not fit the standard that YOU BREED, simply because YOU are unable to foster meaningful relationships with people who COULD care for such dogs, simply because the only way YOU have found to deal with such a problem is to kill the dogs you deem useless...well, I think I've found a better use of the word trash, and I can assure you, it doesn't apply to my own dogs.

I don't breed more dogs (nor will I ever) than I have the means to care for. (Which in case you were wondering, does not mean kill). I know personally the homes that Kimi's pups went to. I have relationships with all of them.



This is sort of a "duh" moment. I've said at least 3 times that I WOULDN'T BREED SUCH A DOG. THAT IS WHAT SPAYING AND NEUTERING IS FOR.

Please reread what I wrote a few posts back. I stated I was using the term "trash" in a very sarcastic manner. I by no means think a pet quality dog is trash, but some others do by the way they are so quick to dump it on someone else to raise & care for. And just out of curisiosity, why did you breed if you sold/gave away all 3 puppies? Isn't the point of breeding to breed for yourself? IMO it is.

[dr2little]

it's the "Enthusiasts" who breed to BETTER this breed. If THEY stopped breeding, the quality of this breed would continue to spiral down into a vast nothingness.
It's the idiots who "think" they know all about "breeding" that have created this mess.... Yes agreed, THEY should NOT breed and spay and neuter their "PETS"!!!!
for sure, ...rolls eyes....:rolleyes:

Again, I was referring to those who breed to the point of requiring killing as a method of culling because they have too many dogs and no where to put the (pet quality) or "trash" as they were so elloquently named:rolleyes:. (not by you) Twisting things around doesn't make killing right, actually..NOTHING makes killing a healthy purposfully bred puppy RIGHT!:mad:
Of course breeding (complete with ALL appropriate testing) is the only way to maintain this breed but instead of killing puppies, why not get together with others and pool your resources so that TOO MANY dogs are not being bred? Why is that so hard to understand?

[Miakoda]

You talk about a life like it means nothing unless it meets with your approval, I'm sorry but I'm totally disgusted!


And once again, you ASSUME that I kill all my dogs off. Just so you'll know, I have NEVER killed a dog that didn't "make the cut." I have placed (given, not sold) 3 spayed/neutered dogs to very very very very good & close friends of mine & we still have all the others. So how's that for your arguement?

[LuvinBullies]

the overpopulation problem is the result of people breeding indiscriminately. culling would not stop the problem.


Here. Right here. We agree!!! Throw the rest of your post away and lets expand on this very very true statement.

We have two types of breeders:

1. Reputable ones who have a working historical knowledge of the APBT and his genetics and specific bloodlines. Culling by death may or may not be a factor in his breeding program- but in all honesty there are bound to be some out there. This is a barb which exists in ALL breeds, not just APBT.

2. Backyard breeders with no knowledge of the breeds history or genetics and is breeding for money. Indiscriminantly, as you said. These people are a disgrace to the APBT, and we who love the breed. We at game-dog view this person AS OUR ENEMY, and the real driving factor in the breeds troubles these days. Get this guy out of the picture, and the APBT's future might not be on such shakey ground. This person plays into the thug market and fuels violent dog fighting rings in inner city apartments and alleyways- and rural areas. He does not screen the buyer, and floods the APBT genepool with unstable hybrids and mutts not typical to the APBT temperament. We do not associate with this individual, and also hope no one else associates us with him. This person gets banned from our site if he shows up, and it's usually darn quick.

On this point, we do agree.

[dr2little]

And once again, you ASSUME that I kill all my dogs off. Just so you'll know, I have NEVER killed a dog that didn't "make the cut." I have placed (given, not sold) 3 spayed/neutered dogs to very very very very good & close friends of mine & we still have all the others. So how's that for your arguement?

I'm sorry if you got lumped in, I was OBVIOUSLY not referring to you. Good for you for placing and spaying/neutering, I wish everyone had your heart and level of responsibility.
There was someone on here who talked about culling himself by the time he was 15 (if I'm not mistaken) and others on here who support this practice. Those are the people who my posts were directed at, not you.

[Miakoda]

BTW...I'd love to know how I am FORCING someone to pay for a dog that they VOLUNTARILY come to me for? Especially when they specifically ASK for a pet-quality animal? An animal that they have jumped through ALL SORTS of hoops to get? (Interviews, home-visits, the contract from hell, and the unsettling idea of KNOWING that I WILL be calling you at random for the rest of your pup's life, and then some). People don't do that for something they don't WANT.

Seriously, this one pretty much gives me a fit of the giggles. Completely illogical.

Despite what you may imagine, my involvement in a Japanese breed does not extend to having the Yakuza intimidate people into buying dogs from me.


Then why not give it away? Why try to make a profit with the justification that "well, they came to me offering to pay for it so I'd better let them."?

[Renee750il]

2. Backyard breeders with no knowledge of the breeds history or genetics and is breeding for money. Indiscriminantly, as you said. These people are a disgrace to the APBT, and we who love the breed. We at game-dog view this person AS OUR ENEMY, and the real driving factor in the breeds troubles these days. Get this guy out of the picture, and the APBT's future might not be on such shakey ground.

The same holds true for every breed.

We get these people every now and again. Whenever possible, we do make a great effort to educate and open their eyes. It has happened a few times :) The ones who refuse to learn and choose to remain ignorant and continue in their destructive and reprehensible breeding practices find that this is not a very welcoming group ;)

[Miakoda]

Being properly bred doesnt always have anything to do with Entropia. IT can be also caused by eye injury, bad allergies can cause the swelling of the inner eyelid which without attention can cause it to curl inward, and infact, many times pups will have it and it will and can cure itself depending on the severity. Its not always a genetic defect. There can be generations of never having it and yes, it will occasionaly just "pop up", too. that is for all bully breeds of dogs.


I understand that. But if entropian is caused due to an eye injury, why should I have to pay to rule it out genetically b/c it happened? Obviously the injury is the source of the problem. And again, no one has any dogs from me, so leave all my dogs out of this.

Also, in my 10+ years involved strictly with the APBT, & in my 4 years as a vet tech at the largest clinic in the city (over 60,000 active clients), I have yet to see a "pit bull" breed with entropian. Now, don't say in a later thread that I said it doesn't/can't happen b/c that's not what I'm saying. I'm just stating that in my experience, I have yet to see it.

I will never go to bat for anyone who believes in killing pups or dogs for no good reason.
So for those that work in rescue, what is the difference b/n you having to euthanize innocent dogs/pups in the shelter? It's no different, just the person doing the procedure is different. I've volunteered at a shelter where I was often the one doing the euthanizing. I've euthanized dogs with horrible temperaments, dogs with severe medical/health issues, but also great dogs who were turned in b/c they were too hyper, too furry, too large, too small & we also so many a purebred turned over b/c the "reputable" breeder who bred the dog, was too full to take the dog in question back. We had people turn over their dogs & want to leave the registration papers for the potential adoptee. We had people turn dogs over because they moved, or redid their house, or had children. We had people turn over "oops" litters & the reamining pups from litters that couldn't be sold....& some with registration papers. And yet, I had the task of euthanizing those that didn't find a home in 6 days. And another point, we PTSd ALL Rottweilers, Dobermans, & "pit bull" type dogs all b/c of the type of crap that walked in to the shelter wanting to adopt them.

That particular shleter found that no amount of background check, questionnaire, & even home check was securing that dog in a model home. It's not unheard of for people to use someone else's house as their house. Itn's not unheard of for people to pay someone else to adopt a dog for them.

And don't even get me started on no-kill shelters. I will NEVER understand how hoarding animals in cages with concrete floors who get hosed down with the cage on a daily basis, have food almost literally thrown at them on a daily basis, & get very little to no human interaction all for the sake of keeping them alive. Just b/c an animal is alive doesn't mean it's living. And if a dog can't be living a fulfilled life, then euthanasia is the nicest thing we can do for them.

And I reiterate, I will NEVER place a dog with someone I haven't known for many years & trust with my entire being. I don't care how great a stranger tells me their home is & how much they will love the dog forever & ever.

[MomOf7]

Theres really only 2 things in this thread that bother me to no end.

First one is the lack of health testing. GOOD LORD!!! Dont you care about the health of your breed? Or are you just afraid they wont get thier clearances?

Second is the culling. Yes it was used but it is no longer used by most breeders. VERY FEW do that anymore. Yet it seems as though it a ritual for the people arguing thier side here. It quite frankly discusts me. Theres alot I can try to understand but that I cant.

The type of training I do is very controversial here so I try to be open minded about different ways of doing things. The chaining, exercise ect is not a problem for me. If thats what it takes to get your dog where it needs to be for competitions and it does not adversly effect them and they are happy and loved, I say go for it.
I dont particularly care for the look you guys are after but afterall its a preference not a moral issue here.

What I cant understand is why? Why dont you use the testing put in place to help breeders make better dogs. Why do you feel it necessary to cull?
Question...At what age do you cull? As a newborn? as a young pup? I can understand letting a sick pup with a failure to thrive go. But cull a perfectly good pup just cause it doesnt meet your standard is obsurd. I am only concerned about the culling and lack of health testing. And I will quote Tex then myself see if this makes any sense?
Originally Posted by Texasbulldogs
Momof7:

Ok so Tex...If no man made test is good enough for testing your dogs then maybe dogs can come up with a test that is more reliable?
You can continue to live in the fantasy world of some magical x-ray or mechanical devise, being able to inform you of your dogs worthy structure all you want. But numerous documentations state otherwise as well as the results…it’s not helping or eliminating it. If you want a proven method that has been in use for every working breed since their beginning, try (1) having a working standard, (2) work your dog/s, (3) cull, those that don’t make the grade, and (4) feed a proper diet. You do that you’ll eliminate hip dysplasia in your dogs. Just as when those same breeds was worked and used like they was designed to be…they never had it.
I dont believe it is me who lives in a fantasy world. I suppose you have xray vision and can tell if your dog has HD or any other GENETIC defect.
Its obsurd that you even think that you know something about genetics.
And yes I am going to tell you how it really is.
You breed a dog with HD to another dog that has good hips in that litter nearly 50 percent of that litter will have HD. Its facts.
Ok lets put this into perspective. I have psoriasis. Did my dad have it? NO did my mom have it? NO but my half sister did and we share the same dad. What does that tell me? My dad carries the gene for psoriasis. Same with dogs. Some dogs carry genetic genes for hereditary defects such as HD. There is no blood test to tell us which dog is carrying it but what we can do is test the dog who is being considered for breeding to eliminate that dog. Now this does not mean somewhere in its bloodlines it isnt carrying the genetic trait. But if you get well bred dogs and research thier pedigree and OFA clearances you have a much better chance of not passing it on to your litter. I agree that there is descrepancies in testing because we have not located that particular gene yet but if you really do your research and work hard at breeding genetically sound dogs( or as sound as you can get) your chances of throwing that trait is better. Same with breeding dogs who have tenacies or traits that are undesirable structurally that is, since you believe in structurally sound dogs.
So I know you believe in genetics but yet you dont believe in testing joints for genetic problems that will be passed on down the line.
This concerns me. Why wouldnt you want to know if your dogs joints are good? Why wouldnt you worry about passing that down? Just like the muscular gene in your breed is supposedly passed down. Same concept with hips elbows ect. Why can you consider the one and not the other? Same same. All genetics and its all passed down no matter how you want to look at it. Be in denial all you want.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

WOW! Why are you saying "you" and addressing an entire forum of over 2000 people? I, for one, enjoyed and respected your posts on gamedog, and truly hope you'll stay. Seriously.
As for the culling bit- I just am not qualified to state how I feel- I don't know the criteria for culling, except I could never do it myself, but I do know these backyard breeders are the ones who are responsible for the APBT falling into the wrong hands. Culling isn't even an isolated issue here in regards to the true APBT anymore than a true Yorkie.

Please do not focus on that, it really has little to do with what APBT owners are about.

I just noticed this:
And you even used one of my quotes in a dramatic way to put false words in my mouth? I am an owner of a pet APBT and I always thought my dogs was good enough. I love them! How dare you insinuate I would cull my own dog!!!!!! How can you do that. I have said over and over again that culling is a widespread practice- not necessarily an ethical one, and certainly not one exclusive to APBT breeders. You may even contribute to a cull everytime you give the AKC a dime as a breeder or owner. You just don't know. And that is my point. I don't support culling, and I don't speak authoritatively about it either because I am never going to be in that position.

This has gone bad. Very very bad. I hope it will be better later, and I do hope you do not leave gamedog. You must realize this- you are wrong when you say the whole forum is a bunch of puppy killers. We have misunderstood you at times, but this here is a doozie.

Have a good night, all. :(

I am not meaning to say that the whole forum is a bunch of puppy killers. What I was meaning by "you" was the people that do do it and the people that think it is ok.

[dr2little]

So for those that work in rescue, what is the difference b/n you having to euthanize innocent dogs/pups in the shelter? It's no different, just the person doing the procedure is different. I've volunteered at a shelter where I was often the one doing the euthanizing. I've euthanized dogs with horrible temperaments, dogs with severe medical/health issues, but also great dogs who were turned in b/c they were too hyper, too furry, too large, too small & we also so many a purebred turned over b/c the "reputable" breeder who bred the dog, was too full to take the dog in question back. We had people turn over their dogs & want to leave the registration papers for the potential adoptee. We had people turn dogs over because they moved, or redid their house, or had children. We had people turn over "oops" litters & the reamining pups from litters that couldn't be sold....& some with registration papers. And yet, I had the task of euthanizing those that didn't find a home in 6 days. And another point, we PTSd ALL Rottweilers, Dobermans, & "pit bull" type dogs all b/c of the type of crap that walked in to the shelter wanting to adopt them.

That particular shleter found that no amount of background check, questionnaire, & even home check was securing that dog in a model home. It's not unheard of for people to use someone else's house as their house. Itn's not unheard of for people to pay someone else to adopt a dog for them.

And don't even get me started on no-kill shelters. I will NEVER understand how hoarding animals in cages with concrete floors who get hosed down with the cage on a daily basis, have food almost literally thrown at them on a daily basis, & get very little to no human interaction all for the sake of keeping them alive. Just b/c an animal is alive doesn't mean it's living. And if a dog can't be living a fulfilled life, then euthanasia is the nicest thing we can do for them.

And I reiterate, I will NEVER place a dog with someone I haven't known for many years & trust with my entire being. I don't care how great a stranger tells me their home is & how much they will love the dog forever & ever.

This is my last post because it's clear that no matter how many times it's said and in how many ways, there are going to be those who justify it.

THERE IS NO WAY TO COMPARE, AS YOU TRIED TO ABOVE (AGAIN), KILLING DOGS WITH NO OTHER ISSUES OTHER THAN NOT MEETING A BREEDERS STANDARD OF WHAT IS WORTHY OF LIFE - TO THE ONES YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

I AM NOT REFERRING TO LIFE ALTERING HEALTH OR TEMPERMENT ISSUES.

EACH ONE OF MY POSTS WERE DIRECTED AT BREEDERS KILLING DOGS AND PUPPIES THAT BREEDERS CHOSE TO CREATE AND THEN CHOSE TO KILL.

AS FAR AS THE NO KILL SHELTERS ARE CONCERNED, AREN'T YOU THE ONE WHO ASKED HOW WE DETERMINED WHICH DOGS WERE HAPPY AND WHICH WERE NOT?

I THINK WE ALL CAN AGREE THAT SHELTERS ARE NO PLACE FOR DOGS BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE A CHANCE. HOW MANY DOGS WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT "BETTER OFF DEAD" WHO ARE NOW LIVING LOVED, HAPPY AND FULL LIVES.

HUMANS PUT DOGS ON THIS EARTH, IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILTY TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.

[Bahamutt99]

And thus spake Adolf, an early proponent of this theory.

And I'm the one making cheap shots? As someone married to a Jewish man, I don't understand comparing culling puppies with culling people. This is another point where my eyes start to glass over. Its right there with the PeTA stance that a life of an ant has the same value as the life of a human child.

[Kurby]

took me all morning to catch up.

Somebody asked if we dress our dogs... I dont personally.. I put a sweater over him when its cold (rarely happens here in CA) but thats about it.

We wer getting along for a minute there (few pages back)

Culling is not an APBT problem alone. Some breeders from other breeds still do it.

I wont kill any of my dogs BTW.

[DryCreek]

First off I would like to say that you have a wonderful board here full of people who are very passionate about dogs.

This thread has been a very intense one at times which only happens when people care a lot about that which they are discussing.

I think a little explanation of terms is required. To cull= to remove from the gene pool. Be it with the use of a spay/neuter or the use of euthanasia.

From a lot of the posts, I get the feeling that some of you are picturing a manic bunch of APBT breeders pumping out litters of pups in the search for perfection and killing off these adorable little creatures that don't make the cut. This is not quite the way it is. Breeders would end up with too many dogs to care for properly and all would suffer. When we breed an animal it is after much thought about improving the stock and it happens very rarely, once every few years for most. Pups born with physical problems that will affect their quality of life are indeed euthanized, but this is for their own good.
I've personally had to have a pup euthanized at 8 weeks of age after finding out that it was not meningitis but a brain tumor. It was a heartbreaking thing to do but was necessary.

Most breeders will keep their pups and raise them until the age where they know if they are viable show animals, whether conformation or working, and then make the decision about culling.

[tempura tantrum]

why did you breed if you sold/gave away all 3 puppies? Isn't the point of breeding to breed for yourself? IMO it is.

I've no problem answering this-

I own my bitch on a co-ownership with HER breeder. As a young person in the fancy (I obtained my bitch when I was 17), my own breeder felt more comfortable keeping my bitch on a co-ownership where she could mentor me. So in reality, Kimi has TWO owners, and my BREEDER (Kimi's other OWNER) wanted a puppy out of her (which she got). Kimi was bred to the top-producing Shiba stud of all time, and the litter was fantastic. A good and well-trusted friend in the fancy just happened to get the puppy that we consider most "successful." That's no water off my back. She takes excellent care of him (as you might guess, considering in less than a year of very limited showing he's number 16 in the breed).

Then why not give it away? Why try to make a profit with the justification that "well, they came to me offering to pay for it so I'd better let them."?

1). You can't make a profit if you're in debt from the breeding. As a general rule, GOOD breeders DON'T make profits, they're lucky to break even. Any and all money gained from selling a puppy is simply put BACK into the program as a way to offset the costs of the genetic testing (which...if actually DONE can be quite expensive...but I guess some of the PB breeders wouldn't know that), the costs of feeding a premium diet (Ol Roy doesn't come close), the costs of competing in multiple dog sports, etc. etc.

2) Giving away dogs is an invitation to people who don't give a s#*@ about the animal (or don't have the means to care for one) to come hounding you for a puppy. While there are certain cases where I can see giving a puppy to someone (perhaps a JR Handler in a family I knew well, and then ONLY on co-ownership), as a whole, I'd steer clear of it. If you don't have the purchase price for one of my dogs, then you certainly don't have enough money to maintain the animal's diet and lifestyle. Much less the money for emergency medical care should it be needed. Frankly, that's not my problem. A dog is NOT a right, it is a luxury.

Don't get your knickers in a twist because YOU are incapable of finding homes for the pet dogs your breeding program produces. My breeder has NEVER had that problem even WITH the rigorous qualifications it takes to get a dog from her. (Her waiting list is over 2 years long for a puppy).

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I wont kill any of my dogs BTW.

Thank you!!

[LinkLinx]

I've always been one to open my mouth quick against culling. I have to say, a lot of others here are as well, and though we have good intentions, I think our words are either being twisted, or misunderstood, or people are taken aback by our love for dogs.

I understand how culling played a signifigant in the formation of breeds, but so did mixing breeds, and we do not need to do that anymore either. I have seen countless posts where dogs are referred to as 'junk' or 'trash', basically, a burden, to anyone who gets ahold of them unluckily through the person who bred them. Unfortunately, by saying that, you are not making yourselves look very reputable, and if you're attempting to make an argument, you aren't doing a very good job.
You are the breeder of these dogs. You know better, or you should, than to put two dogs together and get ready for puppies. From the sounds of it, the breeders here stating how they cull are culling pretty often (which can differ in opinion from person to person of just how much is often). Now, I'm going on logic here...but if you are breeding litters, and have to cull a puppy or more out of every one, wouldn't you question your breeding practices?
If you breed for yourself, then why are you breeding in a way the ensures more puppies? I'd just as soon have an AI pregnancy, known, for the most part, to produce less puppies. I doubt that a handful of your dogs all fell ill at the same time, or something similar, and you need very puppy or most from the litter immediately, having less in the litter will not hurt you. I know for a fact it wouldn't.

Defending culling is like punishing a person for not being able to do something. And I WILL compare dogs to humans, as much as I want, as closely as I want, and not feel an ounce of shame about it. You call yourselves responsible breeders, but how DARE you. How dare you to lump yourselves in with breeders who are very reputable and have amazing dogs, and have never killed a puppy for reasons unknown (an inkling is what I'm guessing cullers go on). There's more than enough examples of dogs who have shown no drive as puppies, who have gone on to become better than their littermates.

You say you don't want your puppies to end up in a shelter, well, get a pen and paper and start writing up a contract. You're not too good for it. You are responsible for them. Don't be a selfish dolt, one who lives through their dogs. You don't want your dogs being places in less than amazing homes, then don't place them there. Do what reputable breeders do, and place them in a loving home. I've never thought of buying a pet from a breeder as stealing a home from a shelter animal, because I have both. A person is allowed to have more than one dog (depending on their housing I'm sure) in most places. If they choose to buy from a breeder, then they are obviously looking for something beyond just being a pet. So don't you dare condemn a puppy for that.

Tempura tantrum has stolen the words out of my mind with her posts. This thread turned into something I believe it was not intended to be, and it's very unfortunate that new readers are going to read this, and have such terrible images in their heads on what goes on in an irresponsible breeder's world, who deems themself to be responsible.

[tempura tantrum]

From a lot of the posts, I get the feeling that some of you are picturing a manic bunch of APBT breeders pumping out litters of pups in the search for perfection and killing off these adorable little creatures that don't make the cut. This is not quite the way it is. Breeders would end up with too many dogs to care for properly and all would suffer. When we breed an animal it is after much thought about improving the stock and it happens very rarely, once every few years for most. Pups born with physical problems that will affect their quality of life are indeed euthanized, but this is for their own good.
I've personally had to have a pup euthanized at 8 weeks of age after finding out that it was not meningitis but a brain tumor. It was a heartbreaking thing to do but was necessary

This isn't the kind of culling we're talking about. As a member of the "breeding world" I understand when it is NECESSARY to cull- and the situation you explained warrants it. If the dog has a FATAL problem, or one that means quality of life will be NIL then it makes sense. I would hardly rake you across the coals for that.

What we take issue with here is the people who have point-blank said that they kill physically/mentally healthy dogs that just don't fit the STANDARD. Culling by means of spay/neuter is JUST as effective at removing the dog from the gene pool. This dog can be placed in a pet home, or you can choose to keep it yourself, but killing an animal YOU SAW FIT to bring into the world for no other reason than "he wasn't game enough," "I didn't like his ear-set," "his color is a disqualification," is ridiculous.

[dr2little]

This isn't the kind of culling we're talking about. As a member of the "breeding world" I understand when it is NECESSARY to cull- and the situation you explained warrants it. If the dog has a FATAL problem, or one that means quality of life will be NIL then it makes sense. I would hardly rake you across the coals for that.

What we take issue with here is the people who have point-blank said that they kill physically/mentally healthy dogs that just don't fit the STANDARD. Culling by means of spay/neuter is JUST as effective at removing the dog from the gene pool. This dog can be placed in a pet home, or you can choose to keep it yourself, but killing an animal YOU SAW FIT to bring into the world for no other reason than "he wasn't game enough," "I didn't like his ear-set," "his color is a disqualification," is ridiculous.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

[tempura tantrum]

I understand how culling played a signifigant in the formation of breeds, but so did mixing breeds, and we do not need to do that anymore either.

EXACTLY!! This argument is spot on.

So your justification is "because it happened in the past, it's okay to do it now?"

I don't know if you ever made it to a University, or took a class in philosophy/argument, but one of the first things you learn AS A FRESHMAN is that this type of argument is a huge FALLACY.

You could justify all manner of horrible things with an arguments like this. Slavery, anyone? Well my ancestors did it, so it MUST be okay! WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!

I can adore my breed WITHOUT adoring (or practicing) the things that created it. Because I am an INDIVIDUAL, and have the ability to think independently.

[LinkLinx]

* clap clap* :)

[MomOf7]

I still see no concern on the behalf of the pitbull breeders here about health testing,with the exception of one.:confused:

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Don't worry there is concern....I think a lot of people are just more concerned with the fact that some of them think it is ok to kill puppies for the simple fact that they aren't good enough.

[tempura tantrum]

Oh MOMof7- Don't you realize it's because there are NO genetic flaws in their breeding programs?:rolleyes:

They don't have to test for anything that "isn't there."

What a head in the sand approach to breeding.

(This certainly isn't to say that ALL PB breeders devalue health testing- just that I've seen some rather "interesting" perspectives on this board regarding why some lines "just don't need testing")

[Renee750il]

but killing an animal YOU SAW FIT to bring into the world for no other reason than "he wasn't game enough," "I didn't like his ear-set," "his color is a disqualification," is ridiculous.


Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but it seems to me that the culling - by whatever method - in the APBT world, isn't so much about perfect ear set or color as it is about nuts and bolts; proper temperament, stability, health, etc. That's the picture I am getting - that the serious APBT people are breeding for the same types of things as the serious, old-fashioned Fila people. I have run across instances where some of the culling practices in the Fila world are particularly brutal - otherwise healthy, dogs with exemplary temperaments put down for having an undescended testicle instead of being neutered, for example. It is heartbreaking, and largely, I have to believe, unnecessary now.

[GHOST]

EXACTLY!! This argument is spot on.

So your justification is "because it happened in the past, it's okay to do it now?"

I don't know if you ever made it to a University, or took a class in philosophy/argument, but one of the first things you learn AS A FRESHMAN is that this type of argument is a huge FALLACY.

You could justify all manner of horrible things with an arguments like this. Slavery, anyone? Well my ancestors did it, so it MUST be okay! WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!

I can adore my breed WITHOUT adoring (or practicing) the things that created it. Because I am an INDIVIDUAL, and have the ability to think independently.



it don't matter cuz you'll never see a apbt of mine no ways,,,, see i don't pass off a dog for someone else to deal with,,, or have to worry about later,,,with all the irresponsible owner out there ,,, get real,,,it was okay and necessary back in the day,,,now with all the animals over bred and overpopulated,,, Why is it not need today,,,if it wasn't still done imagine all the dogs that would really be out there starving and abused

[Bahamutt99]

I just wanted to say to everybody that I enjoy a rousing debate. I am not defeding culling based just on my tendency to be devil's advocate. But I wanted to thank everyone who's been able to participate and present good information without losing their cool. Heated debates that do not degenerate into slingfests are very enjoyable to partake in, at least I think so. Its nice to be able to shake hands and leave the battlefield with the agreement to disagree.

And to those who disagree with what I just said, we'll agree to disagree. ;)

[GHOST]

Oh MOMof7- Don't you realize it's because there are NO genetic flaws in their breeding programs?:rolleyes:

They don't have to test for anything that "isn't there."

What a head in the sand approach to breeding.

(This certainly isn't to say that ALL PB breeders devalue health testing- just that I've seen some rather "interesting" perspectives on this board regarding why some lines "just don't need testing")

as i expect you not to understand because you are a pet owner,,as it's always easy to talk a big game but i could show u some situations and maybe a different outcome of your beliefs,,,

[tempura tantrum]

Renee- I understood this, I was merely trying to make a point of how ridiculous culling (by means of killing), is in ANY program, INCLUDING show breeders, not JUST game-bred PB breeders. (As I don't know exactly what makes a game-bred Pit worthy of living).

An example would be Boxer programs that kill the white dogs instead of placing them into pet homes.

[LinkLinx]

it don't matter cuz you'll never see a apbt of mine no ways,,,, see i don't pass off a dog for someone else to deal with,,, or have to worry about later,,,with all the irresponsible owner out there ,,, get real,,,it was okay and necessary back in the day,,,now with all the animals over bred and overpopulated,,, Why is it not need today,,,if it wasn't still done imagine all the dogs that would really be out there starving and abused

If I could grab at a decoder pen to understand you, I'd do so in a heartbeat. You are no better than you are trying to make yourself out to be.

And you really need to do some studies, and not just buy into the one-sided view of someone else, next time.

[tempura tantrum]

as i expect you not to understand because you are a pet owner,,

LOL. Pet owner?

HARDLY.

My dogs are show/working/performance dogs. And they're GOOD at what they do.

You've never seen my dog hunt. (I don't need to shoot anything, she takes birds out of the AIR). You've never seen what she produces in the whelping box (I'd be happy to show you some photos). You've never seen her do a 15 mile run with me (not a jog- a RUN), and be ready for more.

I've been in dogs since I was 8 years old. Mentored by some of the best in this nation.

I suggest you keep your trap shut when you haven't met MY dogs EITHER.

Perhaps it is YOU who doesn't understand?

[LinkLinx]

Ghost, I am sure I'm not alone when I say that I'm about sick of certain people on here getting attitudes with people over the mere fact that their dogs are pets. If you honestly think in a way the you can't function with other people, then go back to the old days, grab yourself a farmhouse and some working dogs, and don't ever treat them as anything else.

I take strong offense to a snobbish offset remark of being called a pet owner. Just because my dogs don't hold other animals at bay, or take down bulls, or catch rats, or fight other dogs, or god knowsd what else you'd rather see them doing than sitting in my home in front of a warm fire, or out in my garden playing happily, does not mean that your dogs are any better than mine. Get off the high horse, it's a long way down, and I don't see much armour on you.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

it don't matter cuz you'll never see a apbt of mine no ways,,,, see i don't pass off a dog for someone else to deal with,,, or have to worry about later,,,with all the irresponsible owner out there ,,, get real,,,

See this bothers me. THERE ARE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS OUT THERE. Trust me, I am one of them! When you say this sort of stuff it sounds like you are saying only a small group of you should own these dogs, that no one other than you is good enough!!!!!!!!!!!

[tempura tantrum]

BTW Ghost, what exactly do your dogs DO that makes them more than a pet?

I honestly can't remember and I'm curious. Please enlighten.

[GHOST]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
it don't matter cuz you'll never see a apbt of mine no ways,,,, see i don't pass off a dog for someone else to deal with,,, or have to worry about later,,,with all the irresponsible owner out there ,,, get real,,,it was okay and necessary back in the day,,,now with all the animals over bred and overpopulated,,, Why is it not need today,,,if it wasn't still done imagine all the dogs that would really be out there starving and abused


If I could grab at a decoder pen to understand you, I'd do so in a heartbeat. You are no better than you are trying to make yourself out to be.

And you really need to do some studies, and not just buy into the one-sided view of someone else, next time.
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#1042 Today, 12:52 PM
tempura tantrum
Shiba Inu Slave Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 394



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL. Pet owner?

HARDLY.

My dogs are show/working/performance dogs. And they're GOOD at what they do.

I suggest you keep your trap shut when you haven't met MY dogs EITHER.
__________________
Kan-i, Ryosei, Soboku




do understand that i'm not in any way trying to make myself any better than anyone,,,are they not over populated? are they not over breed? i'm no better than anyone on here i just assume to deal with my responsibility more than others,,, pitbulls not a breed for just anyone,, i personally think,,,,thats why they end up in so much spotlight,,, irresponsible ppl

[GHOST]

See this bothers me. THERE ARE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS OUT THERE. Trust me, I am one of them! When you say this sort of stuff it sounds like you are saying only a small group of you should own these dogs, that no one other than you is good enough!!!!!!!!!!!


please understand,,,, i know ppl that has there dogs taken (by Animal Control) to be put to sleep but they dont' care cuz they have 3 of 4 ready to replace at any given time,,,they don't care,,,,

[LinkLinx]

GHOST, you do not just replace dogs. That is sick.

[GHOST]

BTW Ghost, what exactly do your dogs DO that makes them more than a pet?

I honestly can't remember and I'm curious. Please enlighten.

they are worked dogs,,,, temper,,,,

not show dogs,,,

[LinkLinx]

Show dogs can work too. Some can work better than dogs bred to be worked. ;)

[tempura tantrum]

So...YOUR breed is in the spotlight, but I'M an irresponsible breeder? I'M not dealing with my animals appropriately?

Please tell me then, why SHIBAS aren't OVERFLOWING in the shelters. Why SHIBAS aren't splashed over the front page all the time?

I can tell you it's not because they're incapable of causing damage. This breed was bred to hunt wild boar and bear- they are NOT for the casual owner by any means.

NO- it's because breeders in MY breed are doing something RIGHT. Yet our pet puppies are STILL going to pet homes, and we're NOT killing dogs that don't fit the standard.

Doesn't seem to quite add up, does it?

I suggest before you talk crap about other people's breeding programs you think about this.

Since the beginnning of my volunteering with the local animal shelter I have seen TWO dogs that were LABLED as Shibas (one was clearly a Jindo). Those animals were snapped up by our local Shiba rescue as quickly as they came in.

[GHOST]

GHOST, you do not just replace dogs. That is sick.



someone said earlier,,, it was needed back in the day,,,,, it's alot worst now than it was back in the day,,, why is it so sick? may sound bad, i will say,, but not a statistic or in the newpaper

[Roxy's CD]

I don't understand a word of any of that...

Worked dogs? Worked as in you're in frisbee competitions? Worked as in SchH? Worked as in a dock dog? Clear it up a bit.

[tempura tantrum]

What does "worked dogs" mean?

My dogs are show AND working dogs.

They WORK by hunting.

They SHOW by going to conformation competition.

I am asking you what KIND of work your dogs do.

[Jules]

So for those that work in rescue, what is the difference b/n you having to euthanize innocent dogs/pups in the shelter? It's no different, just the person doing the procedure is different. I've volunteered at a shelter where I was often the one doing the euthanizing. I've euthanized dogs with horrible temperaments, dogs with severe medical/health issues, but also great dogs who were turned in b/c they were too hyper, too furry, too large, too small & we also so many a purebred turned over b/c the "reputable" breeder who bred the dog, was too full to take the dog in question back. We had people turn over their dogs & want to leave the registration papers for the potential adoptee. We had people turn dogs over because they moved, or redid their house, or had children. We had people turn over "oops" litters & the reamining pups from litters that couldn't be sold....& some with registration papers. And yet, I had the task of euthanizing those that didn't find a home in 6 days. And another point, we PTSd ALL Rottweilers, Dobermans, & "pit bull" type dogs all b/c of the type of crap that walked in to the shelter wanting to adopt them.

That particular shleter found that no amount of background check, questionnaire, & even home check was securing that dog in a model home. It's not unheard of for people to use someone else's house as their house. Itn's not unheard of for people to pay someone else to adopt a dog for them.

And don't even get me started on no-kill shelters. I will NEVER understand how hoarding animals in cages with concrete floors who get hosed down with the cage on a daily basis, have food almost literally thrown at them on a daily basis, & get very little to no human interaction all for the sake of keeping them alive. Just b/c an animal is alive doesn't mean it's living. And if a dog can't be living a fulfilled life, then euthanasia is the nicest thing we can do for them.


At least they are given a CHANCE. WHO are YOU to decide that a breathing, living creature is not worth of living in home as a pet?

Maybe in your next life human beings will be "humanely euthanized". And maybe then someone will think that you will not be worth living. :mad:

[GHOST]

GHOST, you do not just replace dogs. That is sick.



i didn't say i just replace dogs,,,,,, i said i know some ppl that do,,, and refuse to be even close to ppl like that

[tempura tantrum]

What does "worked dogs" mean?

Ghost- this isn't an idle question. I actually want to know. What kind of work do your dogs do?

[Bahamutt99]

Hypotheticals for those comparing dogs to humans:

Would you put down a dog that was a biter?

Does that therefore mean that a human who commits simple assault should get the lethal injection? (After, of course, the "one free punch" rule.)

Since we spay dogs, should we spay our daughters? How many times have you rolled your eyes when somebody said "I don't want to neuter my dog. I enjoy sex, and don't want to deprive my dog of the joy of mating."

I love dogs. The APBT is my passion, and has given my life more meaning than most of you will ever know. Since I have no children, my dog is very important to me. She sleeps in my bed and eats better than we do a lot of the time. That said, she is not a person. If she endangered a person without extreme justification, I would put her down. I would not even begin to suggest that she has the same value as a human being.

[GHOST]

Ghost- this isn't an idle question. I actually want to know. What kind of work do your dogs do?


idle as in meaning i'm not going to answer,,,,,lol,,, make your own assumptions
of me,,, it really doesn't matter,,,,, the dogs that i have are well taken care of and even heated in the winter at 70 degree's,,,
i'm just saying as bad as it is now,,, how come it's not needed?

[GHOST]

you maybe wanting to make me out to be a dog fighter which you are totally WRONG,,,

[savethebulliedbreeds]

idle as in meaning i'm not going to answer,,,,,lol,,, make your own assumptions
of me,,, it really doesn't matter,,,,, the dogs that i have are well taken care of and even heated in the winter at 70 degree's,,,
i'm just saying as bad as it is now,,, how come it's not needed?

I thought we weren't allowed to make assumtions here? Didn't someone say that already? I didn't realize that it should be that hard to answer the simple question of "what does you dog do for work". Why should we assume. If we assume then we will just be flamed for doing so.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

you maybe wanting to make me out to be a dog fighter which you are totally WRONG,,,

See now you are the one doing assuming. Assuming what we are thinking. Why can't you just answer the question?

[dr2little]

Show dogs can work too. Some can work better than dogs bred to be worked. ;)

Yes, a good number of dogs in the show ring are working dogs..:confused:

[tempura tantrum]

This cracks me up.

I have answered EVERY question about my breeding program because I have nothing to hide.

I have shown you what my dogs do for conformation. I have shown you what they do for work.

I think it's more than a bit hilarious that you cannot/don't want to explain what it is your dogs do for "work."

Since you have ASKED me to assume what it is, I'll do just that.

Nothing. You have no way to explain what actually makes your dog a working dog because in all actuality, it ISN'T one.


So then, how could you POSSIBLY know which animals to cull? The window for "acceptable family pet" is a LOT bigger than that for "no-fail herding dog," "SchH dog," etc. etc.

(Also, and I'm really not trying to rag on you for this, simply suggesting a way to make your posts more easily understood- you only need one comma inbetween sentences. This (,) is correct, not this (,,,). If what you are TRYING to do is make a dramatic pause, you do so with elipses (...) a series of three periods. Much easier on the eyes).

[Amstaffer]

Stop it. Look at your post. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere in that post was the word idiot, liar or clueless stated or directed at anyone. And one of your common themes here is to put words right into other people's mouths. If you misunderstand something someone said that is fine, but to out and out say someone said something they did not is child's play and won't get anyone anywhere. Admittedly there is a sharp truth in the post which is suggestive that some people without authority to speak about the APBT are doing so here, and no one likes to be told they don't know what they are talking about-I don't, and neither do you. But like it or not- when we choose to run our mouths we must expect to eventually be heard by someone at some point who may just know a little more than us about what we are rapping about. In order to learn, we must concede to those qualified to teach. Learning only comes to those who listen, and there is a strong tendency here for people to guard their pride through defensive gab gabbing. I used to be armed with lots of the false knowledge running rampant about the APBT- hell it wasn't even a year ago I would have stood there with my hands on my hips and tell you that any chained pit bull anywhere was a ticking time bomb. Yes, I thought so because I let myself be led astray by people who knew NOTHING about the breed!!! Number crunchers and statistical jargon were my sources of information. The only true source of information about the APBT comes from those who know his entire history up down and sideways back from the ancient Mastiff guard dogs and wild game hunting terriers right up to this very minute. These enthusiasts know who has owned these dogs, bred these dogs, and why they did it, and know all the historical facts which make the APBT what he is today, and where everything went wrong and people started to twist the facts. If you are not one of these people, then you have no authority to state what is right or wrong for the APBT.
The journey of accumulating knowledge about the APBT does NOT begin amongst modern day pet owners who claim to know what is right and wrong for dogs, and include the APBT in their declarations. I used to think it did- but that is not the case.

Please read some of the posts (eg Texasbulldog or whatever) He has called me idiot (without knowing the true meaning) Other posters have used the word clueless and implied people are lying.

There are lots of people here who have first hand experience with Pit Bulls that disagree with the "True Dogmen" and Game Dog folks.

I do know the sad history of the pit bull but I don't need to know its history to know when it is abused, neglected or exploited.

[Amstaffer]

Or here is another way to assess the current situation, based on historical data. If the APBT were left to the "true dogmen" as you have called them, and we let things return to the way things were before the explosion of the variants of the APBT, the Am Staff being one variant, then I guess the whole Bad Rap with Pit Bulls would dissapear as quickly as the decline of these fantastic dogs appeared, because before the late 70's and 80's the Pit Bull was not an issue and the Dogmen and Women -- or as I like to call them, the Keepers of the Breed had no issues. That is a fact. Now I love Staffs...my baby girl is a Staff, so I have no issues with the variants.

. So IMO the salvation of the breed is true understanding and acceptance, with these two things the goodness of the old ways can be leveraged and the knowledge of the current can be a plus.....to deny this dogs heritage, and the mistakes that we humans have made in perpetuating dogs that cannot or will not be understood, therfore controlled is what is bringing the breed to it's knees. To ignore the Keepers is like ignoring the wisdom of our elderly...lots of knowledge there...needs to be used and applied, that is how we as intelligent humans solve problems.

Before the late seventies the Pit Bull was mostly a rural, not an inner city dog and I agree a big problem with pit bulls is the idiots in the inner city who use them for HA and DA. However I must repeat....The violent side or traits of the Pit Bull are no longer needed or wanted by society. For the Breed to continue we must do whatever we can to remove this trait in a humane way.

Wisdom of the Elders? I view these "elders" as being Sadistic Devils and will not acknowledge them as anything more than an embarassment to mankind.

[Amstaffer]

you maybe wanting to make me out to be a dog fighter which you are totally WRONG,,,

Someone has a secret :o ;)

[Bahamutt99]

I'm not jumping to anybody's defense, but a lot of APBT people tend to keep their business private. Its not necessarily indicative of wrong-doing. Just that people tend to judge us, and what we do is scrutinized more carefully than what owners of other breeds do. People tend to suspect the worst out of us. For example, weight pull was an accepted sport until bull-breed people started getting into it, and now some "experts" have called it a cover for fighting dog operations.

So we don't put everything out there for everybody to see. Well some of us don't. I'm probably guilty of being more open than I should. :)

[2nd2none]

See now you are the one doing assuming. Assuming what we are thinking. Why can't you just answer the question?

basically, imo, there has been a whole "under current" of "assumptions" towards the game-dog members, ....


leaves here humming "The Pot" (Tool), .....:popcorn: for some odd reason...:confused: ....

[jess2416]

I cant believe I wasted my lunch break reading this...

No matter how ANY OF YOU (whether your chazzers or gamedog people) want to see it, there are people that are very passionate about what they do and what they believe and its not going to change and I cant believe how low some of you have stepped...

What a waste of a lunch break...:mad:

[Amstaffer]

Hypotheticals for those comparing dogs to humans:

Would you put down a dog that was a biter?

Does that therefore mean that a human who commits simple assault should get the lethal injection? (After, of course, the "one free punch" rule.)

Since we spay dogs, should we spay our daughters? How many times have you rolled your eyes when somebody said "I don't want to neuter my dog. I enjoy sex, and don't want to deprive my dog of the joy of mating."

.

I don't think you should PTS a biter. Dogs bite for a host of reasons....it would really depend on who and why they bit. An unwarranted killer should be put to sleep....Human and Dog.

My sisters aussie bit someone who came to her farm unannounced, she has never bit anyone else and did only a couple of stitches of damage; she should not be PTS. If she had mauled someone and without cause seriously hurt someone then PTS is in order.

FYI I feel repeat sex offenders should be PTS also... if you care. Just to let you know I am not a mindless liberal :D :p

On the daughter thing.... I wouldn't spay her but I might give her birth control and hope to God I could convince her not to engage in premartial sex. I would also neuter any boys she talked to :p :p

[savethebulliedbreeds]

basically, imo, there has been a whole "under current" of "assumptions" towards the game-dog members, .......


Kind of like the assumptions that have been made against the Chaz people like none of us know what we are talking about!

[Miakoda]

[QUOTE=dr2little;498161]This is my last post because it's clear that no matter how many times it's said and in how many ways, there are going to be those who justify it.

THERE IS NO WAY TO COMPARE, AS YOU TRIED TO ABOVE (AGAIN), KILLING DOGS WITH NO OTHER ISSUES OTHER THAN NOT MEETING A BREEDERS STANDARD OF WHAT IS WORTHY OF LIFE - TO THE ONES YOU'VE DESCRIBED.
What do you think shelters do on a daily basis? They kill pups that some breeder didn't want & obviously no one else in the community wants either.

I AM NOT REFERRING TO LIFE ALTERING HEALTH OR TEMPERMENT ISSUES.

EACH ONE OF MY POSTS WERE DIRECTED AT BREEDERS KILLING DOGS AND PUPPIES THAT BREEDERS CHOSE TO CREATE AND THEN CHOSE TO KILL.

AS FAR AS THE NO KILL SHELTERS ARE CONCERNED, AREN'T YOU THE ONE WHO ASKED HOW WE DETERMINED WHICH DOGS WERE HAPPY AND WHICH WERE NOT?
Hmmm. So you DO think it's perfectly humane to watch a dog lie curled up in the corner of a concrete jail doing nothin all day but trying to avoid stepping in it's own feces & avoid the hose that comes to spray down the cage. I'm sure that dog enjoys it's daily meal thrust at it. I'm sure that dog enjoys having no human contact. And I'm sure he enjoys living like that for 3+years. Try all you want, you will never convince me that this type of "saving" is humane nor does it "save" anything. All you are doing is forcing a dog to live in hell. How sweet.

I THINK WE ALL CAN AGREE THAT SHELTERS ARE NO PLACE FOR DOGS BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE A CHANCE. HOW MANY DOGS WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT "BETTER OFF DEAD" WHO ARE NOW LIVING LOVED, HAPPY AND FULL LIVES.
I never said they didn't have a chance. Again, if you didn't read just the statements here & there that back up your own philosophy, you'd realize that I have fostered dogs for almost 17 yrs & have 2 rescues living with me. However, if it were true that there are just countless quality homes out there looking to adopt, then explain the rediculously high numbers of dogs waiting for someone to adopt them and/or being euthanized by shelter personnel? This obviously points out that there aren't just enough homes.
HUMANS PUT DOGS ON THIS EARTH, IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILTY TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.[And I agree./QUOTE]
And I agree.

[2nd2none]

.

No matter how ANY OF YOU (whether your chazzers or gamedog people) want to see it, there are people that are very passionate about what they do and what they believe and its not going to change and I cant believe how low some of you have stepped...

...:mad:



couldn't agree more.....:)

[Miakoda]

I've no problem answering this-

I own my bitch on a co-ownership with HER breeder. As a young person in the fancy (I obtained my bitch when I was 17), my own breeder felt more comfortable keeping my bitch on a co-ownership where she could mentor me. So in reality, Kimi has TWO owners, and my BREEDER (Kimi's other OWNER) wanted a puppy out of her (which she got). Kimi was bred to the top-producing Shiba stud of all time, and the litter was fantastic. A good and well-trusted friend in the fancy just happened to get the puppy that we consider most "successful." That's no water off my back. She takes excellent care of him (as you might guess, considering in less than a year of very limited showing he's number 16 in the breed).

And I appreciate the answer. I feel that a co-ownership in many cases, such as yours & those who are new to a breed, are a great idea.

[Amstaffer]

For example, weight pull was an accepted sport until bull-breed people started getting into it, and now some "experts" have called it a cover for fighting dog operations.
:)

There is a reason for that... When Sal was young I got him involved in some pulling. No real serious but as something for us to do together. At first the guys I met in the sport were pretty cool and good people. After awhile many of the "pulling crowd" started to be very seedly. Needless to say we (me and my dogs) now just do long distance/over night hiking. Its not competition but we enjoy it :D

[Bahamutt99]

Feh. I don't like some of the people involved in weight pull. But there's no way I'm going to let them scare me off. I'm a bulldog person. I don't just give up. ;)

[2nd2none]

Kind of like the assumptions that have been made against the Chaz people like none of us know what we are talking about!




naaah, I wouldn't term it that way. More like the Chaz people just need a little more education when it comes to APBT's, is all...:)

[Miakoda]

So...YOUR breed is in the spotlight, but I'M an irresponsible breeder? I'M not dealing with my animals appropriately?

Please tell me then, why SHIBAS aren't OVERFLOWING in the shelters. Why SHIBAS aren't splashed over the front page all the time?

I can tell you it's not because they're incapable of causing damage. This breed was bred to hunt wild boar and bear- they are NOT for the casual owner by any means.

NO- it's because breeders in MY breed are doing something RIGHT. Yet our pet puppies are STILL going to pet homes, and we're NOT killing dogs that don't fit the standard.

Doesn't seem to quite add up, does it?

I suggest before you talk crap about other people's breeding programs you think about this.

Since the beginnning of my volunteering with the local animal shelter I have seen TWO dogs that were LABLED as Shibas (one was clearly a Jindo). Those animals were snapped up by our local Shiba rescue as quickly as they came in.


And I commend the Shiba owners/breeders from keeping the breed out of the hands of the thugs & other crap that wish to exploit the breed for their own egotisitcal & financial gain.

Unfortunately, it's hard to compare the 2 breeds. The APBT & other "pit bull" breeds suffered a horrific blow once the HSUS began to portray these dogs are killing machines & monstors with "locking jaws" thus making them appeal to the lowlives who shouldn't own a fish, much less a dog & especially not a "pit bull." Combine that worldwide propoganda & untruths combined with a small handful of crappy owners/breeders & you've got a problem that has done nothing but snowball since then. Too many thugs & bybs/peddlers love to do nothing more than ride the name of a great breed to make themselves "cool" or gain a "reputation" in the neighborhood of theirs. These dogs have become nothing more than a status symbol, a thing used to gain "respect", a thing used to make one seem more powerful than another, & a thing used to help lazy ass people keep their wallets full. And all these people deviated the breed away from it's standard by breeding for looks, by mixing in other breeds to achieve the desired "big 'n bad" look, & by breeding dogs with horrible termperaments b/c who doesn't love a snarling muscular dog to make one look powerful?

Thankfully, the Shiba Inu doesn't carry that same sort of appeal. Or else maybe you would see where we come from.

And for those that have flamed the Doberman & GSD owners who have backed us up, it's a shame, b/c it's obvious that they too know what it's like to go through what we are going through. And those owners/breeders did everything they could to save their breeds & right now it seems they are on the right track. And what they have done is to remove the dogs from the hands of people who don't have any business owning one & cull those dogs that are detrimental to the breeds.

[MissBelle]

I'm just quoting you to make a statement about the bolded part of your quote..

I know a person that has a dog that lives in the house, and they hardly ever do ANYTHING with their dog (maybe a walk once in awhile or a game of fetch once in a while) trust me its not an everyday occurance...their dog lives in the house, but that doesnt make it part of the family....

IMO...

Being part of the family, doesnt necessarily mean living in the house, it means doing things with your dogs, whether it be playtime, training, walks, exercise, whatever have you...:)

:hail:

Kudos to you! Another person that thinks for themselves.

And all of us that disagree w/Amstaffer should quit replying to their posts. The stick isnt going to come out of Amstaffer, so we should just ignore the posts. JMO

[Renee750il]

Show dogs can work too. Some can work better than dogs bred to be worked. ;)

That is true for SOME breeds. Others, not. I have one of each. Shiva is from Brazilian show lines. She works well, but she's no match for Kharma, who is from strictly working lines. That holds true with our breed, just as I'm sure it must for many others.

[Miakoda]

At least they are given a CHANCE. WHO are YOU to decide that a breathing, living creature is not worth of living in home as a pet?
Then why aren't you flaming those in rescue/shelter situations who make the same decisions?

Maybe in your next life human beings will be "humanely euthanized". And maybe then someone will think that you will not be worth living. :mad:


Wow. Boy have you sunk to a new low. One thing I can proudly say for myself is I never came on here & told you I wished you were dead.

That statement says a lot & to be honest, I don't EVER associate with scum like you. So keep talking, but God knows I won't be listening.

[Amstaffer]

naaah, I wouldn't term it that way. More like the Chaz people just need a little more education when it comes to APBT's, is all...:)


There we go again....If you don't agree with the "True Dogmen" then you need to be re-educated. Mao felt the same way....Hmmmm

[Amstaffer]

Wow. Boy have you sunk to a new low. One thing I can proudly say for myself is I never came on here & told you I wished you were dead.

That statement says a lot & to be honest, I don't EVER associate with scum like you. So keep talking, but God knows I won't be listening.

She is not wishing that you should die now she is expressing a buddhist belief that you will (need to) learn a lesson from the bad karma you are building in this life.

[Miakoda]

She is not wishing that you should die now she is expressing a buddhist belief that you will (need to) learn a lesson from the bad karma you are building in this life.


Considering I am a Christian (Baptist), I don't take Buddhism seriously so that one's out the window. Now, I'm not knocking anyone's choice of religion, just stating that I stand firm in my own.

Also, I see no one ever wants to touch on the issue that if there were so many great quality dogs out there, there wouldn't be any dogs in shelters. So how can one say there is always a home wanting a great pet quality dog, when pet quality dogs are slaughtered in numbers by shelters across the US?

Other posters have used the word clueless and implied people are lying.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.:cool:

[2nd2none]

There we go again....If you don't agree with the "True Dogmen" then you need to be re-educated. Mao felt the same way....Hmmmm


Holy cow!!!! and there YOU go again with the assumptions!!!!!!

show me, please, in my last statement where I said "true dogmen"??????:confused:


also, I have owned this breed since 86, yes, 20 years now, and I STILL consider myself one who can ALWAYS use more education when it comes to APBT's.

[Renee750il]

She is not wishing that you should die now she is expressing a buddhist belief that you will (need to) learn a lesson from the bad karma you are building in this life.

Ah, but one who truly embraces Buddhism would never make such a judgement ;)

[tempura tantrum]

Thankfully, the Shiba Inu doesn't carry that same sort of appeal. Or else maybe you would see where we come from.

I DO see where you're coming from (I'm involved with Akitas too, so I understand the appeal that a large, powerful, potentially dangerous animal has to people who shouldn't own it).

The only thing I DON'T understand is the rationale that a GOOD PB breeder KILLS puppies that don't fit the standard, when instead it could simply be spayed or neutered, and either placed in an outstanding pet home or live out it's life with the breeder.

The fact of the matter is NO decent breeder takes it's "left over" dogs to a HS to be put to sleep. But NO decent breeder kills those same puppies themself, either! The final outcome is the same- a dead animal that didn't deserve it. I'm still not seeing how any person with a modicum of intelligence doesn't realize this.

It is NOT impossible to find stellar pet homes for hard to live with, DA animals. I KNOW this because I am INVOVLED with DA animals- dogs that are most people's idea of a nightmare. They also don't enjoy being cuddled, pet, or made much of. They will never sit on your lap. They are one-person dogs, indifferent to anyone else that exists. You can literally see their distaste for other people in their eyes. They hate water, scream like human babies when they don't get their way, are a pain in the a$$ to leash train, are NEVER trustworthy of leash (no matter what) and are capable of scaling 6 foot fences.

The common refrain from most people is WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT A DOG LIKE THAT? You would think that it would be impossible to find STELLAR homes for these guys, but I promise it isn't! The trick is INCREDIBLY discriminate breeding (no more than 1 litter, MAYBE 2 per year), and even MORE discriminate choosing when it comes down to families appropriate for Shibas.

Point blank- there is NO excuse for killing dogs YOU breed. If you ARE doing that, then you SHOULDN'T be breeding.

[MissBelle]

Before the late seventies the Pit Bull was mostly a rural, not an inner city dog and I agree a big problem with pit bulls is the idiots in the inner city who use them for HA and DA.
i agree and disagree. Yes the dogs use to be out in the rural country, and owned by responsible people. It is when the general public got ahold of this breed, the problems came around. The DA was there LONG before the 70's sweetheart. The DA is generally not the issue, 9 times out of 10 it is HA dogs that hit the newspaper. Notice prior to the 80's there were practically no PB type dog bites? But yet match dogs had been around WAYYY before then.... However I must repeat....The violent side or traits of the Pit Bull are no longer needed or wanted by society. For the Breed to continue we must do whatever we can to remove this trait in a humane way.
So how do you propose that we "humanely" rid society of these DA dogs???
Do you realize how many hundreds of thousands of dogs you would have to put to sleep? Do you realize how many more hundreds of thousands of dogs you would to have to continue to be put to sleep? I am sorry, but once again your statements are rather ignorant. Instead of CHANGING the breed, why arent we going after the people that are ruining these dogs??? The people that are making them HA, and making their appearance different all for an image status? The dogs are not at fault here, its the stupid humans that created them. Dont punish the dogs, punish the owners.

Wisdom of the Elders? I view these "elders" as being Sadistic Devils and will not acknowledge them as anything more than an embarassment to mankind.
Whatever you think of them, remember, THEY are the ones that helped create the loving dogs that are most likely sitting at your feet.



my reply is in purple (obviously)

[doberkim]

Good post. And not only that, who's to say that the life of the pup you bred is worth more than the life of the pup sitting in a cage at a shelter? Because if you sell that pup, then the shelter pup dies.

The fact is, there are NOT enough responsible homes for "pit bulls" out there. If there were, we would not be overrun with dogs in all parts of the country.

So do you feel it is acceptable for people in other breeds to place pet puppies, since I do not believe any other breed as a whole, represents as many "pits" as there are in shelters (though admittedly, many of those are mixed)?

How on earth does one care for an entire litter of dogs and train them? I have ONE 15 month old, and I can barely work and find the time to train him in the variety of disciplines we work in (agility, obedience, tracking and soon bitework). How on earth does one train an entire litter?

[Amstaffer]

Holy cow!!!! and there YOU go again with the assumptions!!!!!!

show me, please, in my last statement where I said "true dogmen"??????:confused.

That is how many of the Game dog posters come across...just calling them as I see them.

[2nd2none]

That is how many of the Game dog posters come across...just calling them as I see them.



yes, the continuation of the assumptions....

I get it....:rolleyes:

[MissBelle]

That is how many of the Game dog posters come across...just calling them as I see them.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[MissBelle]

yes, the continuation of the assumptions....

I get it....:rolleyes:


I guess the only way to make Amstaffer feel all warm inside, is to tuck all of our tails, and tell him/her that we are all wrong, Amstaffer is right, and what on earth can we do to save oursleves?? :rolleyes:

[2nd2none]

I guess the only way to make Amstaffer feel all warm inside, is to tuck all of our tails, and tell him/her that we are all wrong, Amstaffer is right, and what on earth can we do to save oursleves?? :rolleyes:


loose this condescending attitude, for starters...:rolleyes:

[Amstaffer]

Considering I am a Christian (Baptist), I don't take Buddhism seriously so that one's out the window. Now, I'm not knocking anyone's choice of religion, just stating that I stand firm in my own.



Whether you take it seriously or not many people hold this philosphy and I was trying to help you understand another point of view.........

Renee... Yes a Buddhist or Christian who adheres completely to their religions are not to judge others...but we all know how that usually works out :p

[2nd2none]

...and is that fact that EVERY single person can benefit from more education a real revelation here, or do you guys just like to argue for the sake of argument?

I'm always happy when someone wishes to teach me something.
not defensive and close minded....:rolleyes:

[Amstaffer]

I guess the only way to make Amstaffer feel all warm inside, is to tuck all of our tails, and tell him/her that we are all wrong, Amstaffer is right, and what on earth can we do to save oursleves?? :rolleyes:

No maybe admit that someone else can have another opinion with out being uneducated, cluesless or an idiot.....

You don't realize it but many of the Chazzers seriously bother by some of the practices you favor..

[doberkim]

So I am curious and few have answered it, save for the one person that does hunt hogs (miakoda?).

You all say you have working dogs, and that it's ok to leave working dogs outside on a chain, and that working lines are healthier and you don't need to do health testing.

I am not implying these dogs ARE dog fighting. BUt what ARE they doing that makes them working lines?

Seems to me this smells a lot like people who buy a untitled dog from Europe that has a Sch III 3 generations back, and sell them as ultimate working lines because their parents had a title or were a police dog.

In my breed, we call that bullshit. *shrugs*

So, I am curious what working these dogs do.

[Amstaffer]

...and is that fact that EVERY single person can benefit from more education a real revelation here, or do you guys just like to argue for the sake of argument?

I'm always happy when someone wishes to teach me something.
not defensive and close minded....:rolleyes:

Its not about education you have different opinions on how to treat dogs, your are not going to enlighten us on this. I for one thing some of the Game-Dog ideas are flat wrong....not new and enlightening information. It isn't new your worldview on dogs doesn't match mine.

You could enlighten me on things that are facts but not on your opinions.

You don't realize how condesending your repeative idea of We Game-Dog folks are just here to re-educate you poor blinded Chazzers is.

I hate the title of this thread... it should be "some Pit brainwashing and justification."

[MissBelle]

No maybe admit that someone else can have another opinion with out being uneducated, cluesless or an idiot.....

i think you need to listen to your own advice.

You don't realize it but many of the Chazzers seriously bother by some of the practices you favor..

never once did i ever say that i "favored" those practices. I said that i admired the dogman of OLD.... that has nothing to do with the present day that we are living it. I respect them for the dedication/time/love they put into the dogs, that have now molded the dogs that lie at our feet. None of my dogs, and MANY of your dogs wouldnt be here today if it wasnt for them. So, once again hate them if you want, but remember most that most likely your dogs wouldnt be here if it wasnt for them.

And i am not closed minded either, i see things from both sides of the fence. I am not getting angry with you because you refuse to like "gamedogs" or "dogmen", i am upset because of your holiar than thou attitude... i can almost see you looking down your nose at some of us as you type, and we dont appreciate it.

[2nd2none]

So I am curious and few have answered it, save for the one person that does hunt hogs (miakoda?).

You all say you have working dogs, and that it's ok to leave working dogs outside on a chain, and that working lines are healthier and you don't need to do health testing.

I am not implying these dogs ARE dog fighting. BUt what ARE they doing that makes them working lines?

Seems to me this smells a lot like people who buy a untitled dog from Europe that has a Sch III 3 generations back, and sell them as ultimate working lines because their parents had a title or were a police dog.

In my breed, we call that bullshit. *shrugs*

So, I am curious what working these dogs do.


you can look here for starters:
http://www.wpbtca.com/index.htm

[2nd2none]

[QUOTE=MissBelle;498383] I said that i admired the dogman of OLD.... that has nothing to do with the present day that we are living it. I respect them for the dedication/time/love they put into the dogs, that have now molded the dogs that lie at our feet. None of my dogs, and MANY of your dogs wouldnt be here today if it wasnt for them. So, once again hate them if you want, but remember most that most likely your dogs wouldnt be here if it wasnt for them.[/B]

QUOTE]


just gutta say, nice post!

[MissBelle]

Its not about education you have different opinions on how to treat dogs, your are not going to enlighten us on this. It isn't new your worldview on dogs doesn't match mine.

The same goes for us too ya know. ;)

You could enlighten me on things that are facts but not on your opinions.

Dito.

[MomOf7]

Ok so we have managed to elude the health testing once again. Go back a few pages and read my posts.

[doberkim]

you can look here for starters:
http://www.wpbtca.com/index.htm


showing me what others have done with their dogs does not answer my question.

You guys have said you do not place with others, you have working dogs, you have multiple dogs that require being kept outside.

What work do you do with them, and how do you train even 5 dogs in a sport and hold down a job? For schutzhund, at least - I know we are training 3 days a week with the club and tracking pretty much every day. How do you do that with 5-6 dogs?

what sport do YOU do, 2nd2none? What things are your dogs trained in? Do you do obedience, schutzhund, weight pull, agility, tracking, MR/FR, PSA?

I am not asking what in general, people do with APBTs. I am asking what YOU guys do with them, that makes them working dogs.

[2nd2none]

Its not about education you have different opinions on how to treat dogs, your are not going to enlighten us on this. I for one thing some of the Game-Dog ideas are flat wrong....not new and enlightening information. It isn't new your worldview on dogs doesn't match mine.

You could enlighten me on things that are facts but not on your opinions.

You don't realize how condesending your repeative idea of We Game-Dog folks are just here to re-educate you poor blinded Chazzers is.

I hate the title of this thread... it should be "some Pit brainwashing and justification."



well, I'll be damned then. And here I was thinking the 100+ pages of this thread were pages of APBT education.:confused:

guess I was wrong.....

or perhaps it's the perverbal, "you can't teach someone that knows it all", saying...

[DryCreek]

I found this article which really does a good job explaining the history of our beloved breed. I will warn you though, not all will want to read the whole article as the last chapter's have references to the historical work of these animals. Please heed the warnings if you do not want to read this part of the history.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part1/

I'll warn you, it's pretty lengthy, LOL, but I love reading, especially about our dogs.

Please don't come back and rage about the horribleness of the past, but take the good info and enjoy;)

[Roxy's CD]

I didn't see the original post, but what in the WORLD could you be training for that requires a dog to be left outside?

That DEMANDS a dog be left outside?

That is very confusing for me. Mach1 trains WP (a popular sport with APBT) with her pups, I do not believe they are required to be left outside.

I know of people who train in SchH, even on this board, and their dogs are not left outside.

A man I spoke with who trains in FR sport, does inside.

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TRAINING FOR THAT REQUIRES YOUR DOGS TO BE LEFT OUTSIDE?!?!?!

[Renee750il]

Seems to me this smells a lot like people who buy a untitled dog from Europe that has a Sch III 3 generations back, and sell them as ultimate working lines because their parents had a title or were a police dog.

In my breed, we call that bullshit. *shrugs*

So, I am curious what working these dogs do.

In your breed. Comparing the very [relatively] new Doberman breed to other breeds, whether it be APBT, Filas, Bloodhounds, or others, particularly breeds with a truly long history is pure folly. There is no real basis for comparison. They are far too different. The Doberman was created. The old breeds evolved over a much longer period of time. Not that one is better than the other, just that comparisons are largely irrelevant.

[2nd2none]

showing me what others have done with their dogs does not answer my question.

You guys have said you do not place with others, you have working dogs, you have multiple dogs that require being kept outside.

What work do you do with them, and how do you train even 5 dogs in a sport and hold down a job? For schutzhund, at least - I know we are training 3 days a week with the club and tracking pretty much every day. How do you do that with 5-6 dogs?

what sport do YOU do, 2nd2none? What things are your dogs trained in? Do you do obedience, schutzhund, weight pull, agility, tracking, MR/FR, PSA?

I am not asking what in general, people do with APBTs. I am asking what YOU guys do with them, that makes them working dogs.

well, let's see the "pit bull" club I am a member of does,
1). weight pull and
2). conformation events,

and has an annual "Fun Show".
Imagine,...
MANY of the same events that, http://www.wpbtca.com/index.htm also lists!:cool:
... where the "other" people may be members of.....

[2nd2none]

...change of subject, was just thinking


don't forget to set your clocks BACK tonight....

[mydawgs]

So...YOUR breed is in the spotlight, but I'M an irresponsible breeder? I'M not dealing with my animals appropriately?

Please tell me then, why SHIBAS aren't OVERFLOWING in the shelters. Why SHIBAS aren't splashed over the front page all the time?

I can tell you it's not because they're incapable of causing damage. This breed was bred to hunt wild boar and bear- they are NOT for the casual owner by any means.

NO- it's because breeders in MY breed are doing something RIGHT. Yet our pet puppies are STILL going to pet homes, and we're NOT killing dogs that don't fit the standard.

Doesn't seem to quite add up, does it?

I suggest before you talk crap about other people's breeding programs you think about this.

Since the beginnning of my volunteering with the local animal shelter I have seen TWO dogs that were LABLED as Shibas (one was clearly a Jindo). Those animals were snapped up by our local Shiba rescue as quickly as they came in.


You are very fortunate that the breed of your choice cannot be used as the kind of "fashion" accessory that has created a bad situation for the Pit Bull. You just don't see too many "tough" guys walkin around with the Shiba...don't get defensive, I think they are a very cute dog. Shibas and Pits cannot be compared as working dogs, as you are a knowledgable breeder, then you know form follows function...be thankful the Shiba cannot be misused for the same reasons the Pit Bull can.....that is one thing the breed has going for it in terms of public perception that works against the Pit Bull....but make no mistakes, if the Shiba could those same people misusing the Pit Bull would have a Pit in one hand - spiked collar and all and the Shiba in the other...Not Likely Though

[DanL]

[QUOTE=dr2little;497999]I have to say that I'm really surprised that you feel that way. QUOTE]

Doc, I'm a realist by nature. I don't necessarily agree with it, but fact is, culling is how all of our beloved pets came to be. It doesn't do me any good to feel bad about what was done 100 years ago. I can feel bad about it being done in modern times but unless I'm a witness to it and have some power to make it public knowledge, there is little I can do but accept that it goes on, just like a lot of other bad things go on in our society. I change what I can, accept what I can't.

[Bahamutt99]

I think the chaining issue has some cultural and class barriers, in addition to the normal perception issues. It was harder for me to accept chaining while I held a steady job, always had money, wasn't paying rent and could spend as much as I wanted on my dog. I had scraped together $300-someodd dollars in the dead of winter and built a privacy fence for my dog; why couldn't everybody else do the same? At the same time, I dumped about $400 on a kennel to satisfy city BSL. Plus, I was feeding my dog Nature's Variety kibble and medallions, buying her a new collar everytime I turned around, paying for expensive obedience classes, travelling 10 hours one way to dog shows, and so forth.

I'm in a much humbler situation now, and have had to roll with the punches. As it is right now, it is very hard to sit back and listen to people suggest that a chain is unacceptable and cruel. Some people have to exercise their most practical option to keep their dog contained, and it is not just those who keep many dogs. And sometimes APBTs make it hard to keep them securely contained and seperated using anything but a chain. (Thankfully, my dog is not one of those, but that doesn't mean I don't know people that own such dogs.)