Some Pit Education

[Miakoda]

Well one wouldn't be so bad, it's when you get 6 or 8.

Well let's see. At my house, I've got 9 APBTs, a Dogo Argentino, a Rottweiler, an Olde English Bulldogge (who has DA), & a Shar Pei/Cane Corso mutt. I've also got 2 Catahoula pups I picked up off the side of the road b/c they had nice owners who didn't believe in chaining & they are temporarily staying with my parents until we sell our house & move. Bash away!:D

And btw, I don't like GSDs because of what crappy breeding has made most of them: unstable, weak nerved, & overly human aggressive but you don't see me bashing you or your breed of choice. To be factual, the only breeds I have been bitten by are a Labrador (27 stitches in the forearm) & a horribly tempered PP trained GSD who obviously has a thing against vets & vet techs (which I am) (20 something stitches in my upper right thigh). But yet I don't come on here griping & complaining about those breeds & how they need to be changed. I just won't deal with them & will leave them up to the people who truly love them for just the way they are.

[2nd2none]

Julie said, and I quote "I will again say......this whole thread gives me a bad feeling and makes me feel sick".

so, not to be a smart a$$ or anything, more curious is all, why then are you reading this/staying here and participating in relying to the threads?
that is, if it "gives you a bad feeling and makes you sick".
Why do you stay?:confused:

[Miakoda]

When was the last time a herding breed was exploited to the degree that these dogs are?

You finally hit the nail on the head. This is a HUMAN issue, not a dog issue. Humans are doing the exploiting & it has nothing to do with dog aggression. If DA were the main appealing factor, JRTs, Fox Terriers, & other terrier breeds would also be the drug dealer dog of choice. Instead it has to do with having a dog with a cool sounding name. It has to do with having a muscular dog that can be used to visually intimidate other people. It has to do with people who have small "manhoods" trying to enlarge it by having a cool looking fashioin symbol complete with 3 inch spiked collar & harness. The fact that many don't like other dogs has nothing to do with their popularity.

If we are to change things, we need to change whose hands we put these dogs into. We need to stop adopting out unsound dogs with unsound temperaments b/c we have bleeding hearts. We need to stop bybs & peddlers. We need to stop those who think it's ok to let their dogs run loose & stop those whose dogs escape time & time again but are too lazy to correct the problem. Taking DA out of the breed isn't going to save it. Taking the breed out of the hands of the general public will.

And if this breed can be pulled out of the spotlight, a new breed will fill it's place. The GSD, Doberman, Rottweiler, Great Dane have already had a run in the same shoes the "pit bull" is in now. Kudos to those owners for being able to get their breeds out of immediate danger. But things are already looking downhill for the Presa Canario & Cane Corso (which I LOVE) as these dogs are already becoming popular with the drug lords & wanna-be punks & I'm starting to see many a newspaper ads from bybs/peddlers already putting these dogs on the market. It's only a matter a time before another breed hits the spotlight. And then what? Do we try to change those breeds too & breed out the traits that make them what they are?

It's not the traits of the dog that are the cause of it's demise, it's humans.

[blue]

I rest my case.

I tried registering on your site, never got my activation email. Could you look into that for me?

I still say your initial posts where like trying to get info from a bowling ball. Do you see something wrong with volunteering information to dispell misinformation the media puts out for you breed as facts? Your post are much more informative now than they where but the glib bit is getting a bit tiring and very ungentlman like.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Julie I wasn't saying you specifically. I just think that a lot of things here have been taken out of context or switched around.

[Julie]

Well let's see. At my house, I've got 9 APBTs, a Dogo Argentino, a Rottweiler, an Olde English Bulldogge (who has DA), & a Shar Pei/Cane Corso mutt. I've also got 2 Catahoula pups I picked up off the side of the road b/c they had nice owners who didn't believe in chaining & they are temporarily staying with my parents until we sell our house & move. Bash away!:D

And btw, I don't like GSDs because of what crappy breeding has made most of them: unstable, weak nerved, & overly human aggressive but you don't see me bashing you or your breed of choice. To be factual, the only breeds I have been bitten by are a Labrador (27 stitches in the forearm) & a horribly tempered PP trained GSD who obviously has a thing against vets & vet techs (which I am) (20 something stitches in my upper right thigh). But yet I don't come on here griping & complaining about those breeds & how they need to be changed. I just won't deal with them & will leave them up to the people who truly love them for just the way they are.

Sounds like you are overloaded.
I could careless if you like my dogs!! I am not the one "trying" to educate anyone about my prefrences.
I think you just did complain about them on a thread to "educate US on APBT"
:D

[doberkim]

If all pit owners were like you, it would be that simple. The fact is that they are not, these dogs are suffering and one reason is because of a man made trait that can be worked on without ruining the dog.
Again, why are they being chained, fought..etc. It's not because of good pit owners.

so again -
we should change the breed because some people cannot handle them?

[Miakoda]

Sounds like you are overloaded.


And that my dear, is only your opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.........

[Julie]

Julie said, and I quote "I will again say......this whole thread gives me a bad feeling and makes me feel sick".

so, not to be a smart a$$ or anything, more curious is all, why then are you reading this/staying here and participating in relying to the threads?
that is, if it "gives you a bad feeling and makes you sick".
Why do you stay?:confused:

Because I keep getting pm's and I still get quoted after two days of not posting.........and mainly because I like to be heard too. Even if it does make me physically sick.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I really don't think there is anything to be physically sick about here, IMHO. These peoples dogs are loved and cared for (obviously), I don't see anything wrong with that.

[dr2little]

You finally hit the nail on the head. This is a HUMAN issue, not a dog issue. Humans are doing the exploiting & it has nothing to do with dog aggression. If DA were the main appealing factor, JRTs, Fox Terriers, & other terrier breeds would also be the drug dealer dog of choice. Instead it has to do with having a dog with a cool sounding name. It has to do with having a muscular dog that can be used to visually intimidate other people. It has to do with people who have small "manhoods" trying to enlarge it by having a cool looking fashioin symbol complete with 3 inch spiked collar & harness. The fact that many don't like other dogs has nothing to do with their popularity.

If we are to change things, we need to change whose hands we put these dogs into. We need to stop adopting out unsound dogs with unsound temperaments b/c we have bleeding hearts. We need to stop bybs & peddlers. We need to stop those who think it's ok to let their dogs run loose & stop those whose dogs escape time & time again but are too lazy to correct the problem. Taking DA out of the breed isn't going to save it. Taking the breed out of the hands of the general public will.

And if this breed can be pulled out of the spotlight, a new breed will fill it's place. The GSD, Doberman, Rottweiler, Great Dane have already had a run in the same shoes the "pit bull" is in now. Kudos to those owners for being able to get their breeds out of immediate danger. But things are already looking downhill for the Presa Canario & Cane Corso (which I LOVE) as these dogs are already becoming popular with the drug lords & wanna-be punks & I'm starting to see many a newspaper ads from bybs/peddlers already putting these dogs on the market. It's only a matter a time before another breed hits the spotlight. And then what? Do we try to change those breeds too & breed out the traits that make them what they are?

It's not the traits of the dog that are the cause of it's demise, it's humans.

OMG...When have I ever said it was the dogs fault. This is giving me a headache, I just don't understand why keeping a trait that gives ROTTEN HUMANS a reason to exploit them is so important to you. And please, saying that it will change this dog to it's detriment is just pure speculation to make your point appear more valid.

[Gamedogs]

I tried registering on your site, never got my activation email. Could you look into that for me?What is your username? As for the rest of that, I refuse to respond to anything else here at this time.

[2nd2none]

.........and mainly because I like to be heard too. Even if it does make me physically sick.


...:confused: ...YOUR choice, ...

[doberkim]

Instead of trying to change that trait, I leave them alone & leave them to the people like Doberkin who are committed to working with the breed(s) & can fully love them for what they are.


and that is part of responsible ownership - understanding what you can and cannot live with and handle. i adore some other breeds, but do not own them. i personally LOVE bully breeds and would love a staffy bull, but right now i dont have room in my life for a potentially DA dog - so i dont risk it now. theres many other breeds i would love to own, but in an ideal world, my lifestyle doesnt fit them, plain and simple.

on the other hand, i lived with a dog that sent a girl to the hospital, and not only lived with him, trained him, and yes, even titled him.

there are certain things *i* can handle, and other things i cannot. i certain things i accept and other things i dont. and what comes with responsible dog ownership, is figuring out what fits your lifestyle best.

and a doberman fits me :)

[Julie]

It is not obvious to me.

[Miakoda]

trait that gives ROTTEN HUMANS a reason to exploit them is so important to you

Because that's not the trait being exploited! Open your eyes! It's the looks of the dog & the name that's being exploited!

And please, saying that it will change this dog to it's detriment is just pure speculation to make your point appear more valid.

And saying that it won't is pure speculation on your part. At least I'm not encouraging more back yard breeding & peddling to take place just to try & breed out DA.

[Julie]

and that is part of responsible ownership - understanding what you can and cannot live with and handle. i adore some other breeds, but do not own them. i personally LOVE bully breeds and would love a staffy bull, but right now i dont have room in my life for a potentially DA dog - so i dont risk it now. theres many other breeds i would love to own, but in an ideal world, my lifestyle doesnt fit them, plain and simple.

on the other hand, i lived with a dog that sent a girl to the hospital, and not only lived with him, trained him, and yes, even titled him.

there are certain things *i* can handle, and other things i cannot. i certain things i accept and other things i dont. and what comes with responsible dog ownership, is figuring out what fits your lifestyle best.

and a doberman fits me :)

I bet you could handle it if you made 6 or 8 dog houses.......tied them up on chains...... and you could even rotate them so each would have one day a week in your home.

But I honestly don't think you would agree that is adequate.

[Miakoda]

and that is part of responsible ownership - understanding what you can and cannot live with and handle. i adore some other breeds, but do not own them. i personally LOVE bully breeds and would love a staffy bull, but right now i dont have room in my life for a potentially DA dog - so i dont risk it now. theres many other breeds i would love to own, but in an ideal world, my lifestyle doesnt fit them, plain and simple.

on the other hand, i lived with a dog that sent a girl to the hospital, and not only lived with him, trained him, and yes, even titled him.

there are certain things *i* can handle, and other things i cannot. i certain things i accept and other things i dont. and what comes with responsible dog ownership, is figuring out what fits your lifestyle best.

and a doberman fits me :)

Have I told you I really like you? :D

[dr2little]

so again -
we should change the breed because some people cannot handle them?

Can't handle them? Doberkim, is this really the arguement. Are 100's sitting on death row because people can't handle them or because IDIOTs get ahold of them and often use their HUMAN created traits to make them suffer.

[Miakoda]

I bet you could handle it if you made 6 or 8 dog houses.......tied them up on chains...... and you could even rotate them so each would have one day a week in your home.

But I honestly don't think you would agree that is adequate.


Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Assumptions don't carry any weight. To "assume" makes and "ass" out of "u"

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Dr2Little. I get your point, I really do. I don't think that the dogs are the problem...its the humans that are the problem. So, instead of changing the dog, lets change the humans. I think there would be much more value in changing the way the bad humans view these dogs rather than changing the dogs. There is nothing wrong with the dogs...its the humans that need to have traits bred out of them lol.

[2nd2none]

and that is part of responsible ownership - understanding what you can and cannot live with and handle. and what comes with responsible dog ownership, is figuring out what fits your lifestyle best.

:)



EXCELLENT!!!:hail:

[Julie]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Assumptions don't carry any weight. To "assume" makes and "ass" out of "u"

Why would you resort to name calling? :p

[dr2little]

Because that's not the trait being exploited! Open your eyes! It's the looks of the dog & the name that's being exploited!

Yes, that is part of the reason but so is the DA aspect. To deny that is just silly. Just because you know about this breed doesn't mean that Joe Blow does. They will always fall into the wrong hands. I'm all for education but I'm also a realist.

And saying that it won't is pure speculation on your part. At least I'm not encouraging more back yard breeding & peddling to take place just to try & breed out DA.

WTH - now I'm encouraging BYBing...what next????:mad:

[Miakoda]

Can't handle them? Doberkim, is this really the arguement. Are 100's sitting on death row because people can't handle them or because IDIOTs get ahold of them and often use their HUMAN created traits to make them suffer.

I used to live in Hammond, LA which is still a very rural area complete with dairy farms, beef farms, & whatnot. And I used to volunteer at AC to help eval dogs, bathe dogs, walk dogs, & EUTHANIZE dogs. And I can promise you that the majority of the dogs in shelters are there b/c human don't research a dog breed before getting one & then get frustrated when the dog doesn't act how the owner expected. Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, & Australian Cattle Dogs are a dime a dozen there b/c people got them after hearing how good they are with kids & b/c they are so pretty & they were nowhere near prepared to deal with the strong herding instincts which led the dogs to roam, chase children, & run other people's livestock (which is a HUGE no-no in rural farm areas). We also saw a lot of GSDs & even 3 Malinois that someone paid a lot of money for & they were turned over b/c of their wariness to strangers & guarding habits & the owners weren't prepared for that. They wanted a guardian breed that would allow strangers onto their home & into their home with no problem. We even had several EB's turned over b/c people weren't prepared to deal with the health problems. And terriers? Geeze. "The dog has too much energy", "He's eating my plants & diggin up my garden", "He's chasing my chickens", "He's chewing up all my stuff". These are the majority of the cases that we saw. Of course there were animal cruelty cases, but that's not even close to being the major reason why dogs end up in shelters. Go work in one & see.

[Miakoda]

Why would you resort to name calling? :p


I didn't. I just spelled out a word for you & lookey there.

[blue]

i am sorry, but there is no such thing as a bait dog. the media and HSUS made that word up.. dogs either fight and live, or fight and die..

Ild have to dig up the article if I can. There is an alleged dog fighting ring just north of here in Big Lake that the Troopers beleave have been stealing dogs as bait dogs. The bait dogs was a quote from the Trooper spokesman, it was in relation to 3 Min Pins stolen in the Big Lake area. If there was an alleged dog fighting ring in Anchorage it would have been found as that is the states largest population center, out in Big Lake with all its other crime, a ring would be a low priority.

now i own a pitbull mix, and he lives with 2 other dogs, and various foster pups when i have them .. he looks like a pitbull, acts like one, and i treat him like a pitbull. i never leave him alone with my other 2 dogs, and he is properly supervised when with my other 2 dogs.. i have had him from 2 months old, he is now 4 years old. i follow the responsible pitbull ownership rules, and am a responsible owner. Rufus attended a year and a half of dog obedience classes from the time he was 2 months old, 3 times a week for that time every week.. i then got him his CGC title (before i was an evaluator) and then his therapy dog title, and then his www.atts.org title.. while he is a mix, i still am careful as he does have some pitbull heritage in him

Its likely my Verde is a pit mix, I wasnt very watchfull her first hour here and one of the boys bit her breaking her skin. I havent had a repeat of that incident, even though its only been 11 days, and dont expect another one with her temperment.

[dr2little]

Dr2Little. I get your point, I really do. I don't think that the dogs are the problem...its the humans that are the problem. So, instead of changing the dog, lets change the humans. I think there would be much more value in changing the way the bad humans view these dogs rather than changing the dogs. There is nothing wrong with the dogs...its the humans that need to have traits bred out of them lol.

How's that working so far? I don't mean to be P!ssy but really, if humanity has proved anything it's that it is cruel and INHUMANE. "Control the humans" is why the shelters are busting at the seams with pits on death row.

I wholeheartedly believe that changing the humans is the ideal answer, just proving to be a romantic idea at best.

[doberkim]

julie, i already indicated in a previous post. i do not agree with keeping ANY animal outside. i do not agree with keeping a dog locked in a yard, i do not agree with keeping a dog out in a kennel, and no, i wouldnt agree with keeping a dog outside on a chain - purely because ANY outside time that is unsupervised is not something i personally find safe.



i thought 100's were sitting on death row in shelters across the nation because we humans screwed up and keep breeding dogs nonstop, because we think tend to confuse the physical capabillity TO reproduce, as some bizarre RIGHT to reproduce.

[dr2little]

I used to live in Hammond, LA which is still a very rural area complete with dairy farms, beef farms, & whatnot. And I used to volunteer at AC to help eval dogs, bathe dogs, walk dogs, & EUTHANIZE dogs. And I can promise you that the majority of the dogs in shelters are there b/c human don't research a dog breed before getting one & then get frustrated when the dog doesn't act how the owner expected. Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, & Australian Cattle Dogs are a dime a dozen there b/c people got them after hearing how good they are with kids & b/c they are so pretty & they were nowhere near prepared to deal with the strong herding instincts which led the dogs to roam, chase children, & run other people's livestock (which is a HUGE no-no in rural farm areas). We also saw a lot of GSDs & even 3 Malinois that someone paid a lot of money for & they were turned over b/c of their wariness to strangers & guarding habits & the owners weren't prepared for that. They wanted a guardian breed that would allow strangers onto their home & into their home with no problem. We even had several EB's turned over b/c people weren't prepared to deal with the health problems. And terriers? Geeze. "The dog has too much energy", "He's eating my plants & diggin up my garden", "He's chasing my chickens", "He's chewing up all my stuff". These are the majority of the cases that we saw. Of course there were animal cruelty cases, but that's not even close to being the major reason why dogs end up in shelters. Go work in one & see.

Hmmmm, this is what I've been doing for 20+ years..

Again, yes it's the humans. Why do you keep missing that in my posts?:confused:

[blue]

*EDIT*

Holy carp did I screw up that quote up!

[dr2little]

julie, i already indicated in a previous post. i do not agree with keeping ANY animal outside. i do not agree with keeping a dog locked in a yard, i do not agree with keeping a dog out in a kennel, and no, i wouldnt agree with keeping a dog outside on a chain - purely because ANY outside time that is unsupervised is not something i personally find safe.



i thought 100's were sitting on death row in shelters across the nation because we humans screwed up and keep breeding dogs nonstop, because we think tend to confuse the physical capabillity TO reproduce, as some bizarre RIGHT to reproduce.

I'm referring to pits. They're flowing into Calgary from the states in droves, but I'm sure you know that.:rolleyes:

[doberkim]

im confused - so you are using the insanity of michael bryant as to a reason why we need to change the breed? because some politician got insane BSL passed, so we need to lessen the DA? and as if that DA is somehow related to human aggression?

[Zoom]

Man, this thread just exploded...

Don't really have anything constructive to add, besides that I wish it were mandatory for people to fill out a breed selector and then have a good trainer evaluate them and any potential dog they choose...so that idiot people would quit getting Goldens because they're so freaking adorable as pups, but can't handle the energy, mouthing and hair that comes as they grow up, would quit getting APBT's because of the DA and "macho" aspects and would quit getting herding dogs because of looks.

Return to your reguarly schedualed program.

[Julie]

I didn't. I just spelled out a word for you & lookey there.

Wow........You seem very mature. :rolleyes:

[dr2little]

im confused - so you are using the insanity of michael bryant as to a reason why we need to change the breed? because some politician got insane BSL passed, so we need to lessen the DA? and as if that DA is somehow related to human aggression?

WHAT:confused: :confused: Have you ever read even one of my posts, from this thread or any other? Who exactly do you think I am?:rolleyes:

[blue]

What is your username? As for the rest of that, I refuse to respond to anything else here at this time.

PMed you, thanks.

[2nd2none]

Wow........You seem very mature. :rolleyes:


and so, this post would make you, "very, VERY mature"????:confused:
come on now! stop the little **** a$$ stuff. please.

[Zoom]

Cut the bickering or take it PM's please.

[Miakoda]

Again, yes it's the humans. Why do you keep missing that in my posts?

I don't know. Maybe I'm just confused as to why if we all know it's a human problem, then why the emphasis on changing the dogs? IMO, it doesn't make sense. And there's already a shift beginning in the thugs breed of choice. Bandogs, Presa Canarios, & Cane Corsos are gaining in popularity amongst the same thug crowd that pushed the "pit bull" into the spotlight. And yet, thanks to the media, they are all labeled as "pit bulls" so who really knows what the ratio is of true "pit bull" breeds to mixed breeds/other purebreds being labled as "pit bulls" really is. Hell, I get more "Hey girl, that's a nice pit" comments when I'm out with my OEB or with the Ca da Bous than I do when I'm walking one of my APBTs. Since all my APBTs range in weight from 34lbs to 55lbs, most people think I have mixed breeds. So this just this adds to the belief that it's the looks of the dog, the intimidation factor, that is the real driving force behind thugs/byb/peddlers with "pit bulls" than dog aggression.

[blue]

Im again curious, what is the joy in owning half a dozen, a dozen or more dogs that cant interact with each other or all live in the same space with their owners?

*edit*

I can understand sled dog owners, not sure I agree cause I couldnt do it.

[silverpawz]

Im again curious, what is the joy in owning half a dozen, a dozen or more dogs that cant interact with each other or all live in the same space with their owners?

I asked the same question before and haven't gotten a response yet. Aside from "liking to admire them".

And before anyone says, 'do you want us to rehome all our dogs except one?', No. I don't think anyone is saying to start rehoming your dogs and keep only one.

However, the decision in the begining, to get more than a single dog knowing full well you'd have to keep them seperate full time is what we are questioning. Why make that choice in the first place?

[Miakoda]

For one, these dogs weren't bred to be pack animals. And I don't think it's fair to have to have a dog to babysit another dog b/c the human is too lazy to do anything with it. Some dogs were bred to be pack animals (hounds), some were not.

As for why do I have them? It's the same reason people have 2, 3,4 or more children. I love all my dogs individually. They all have their own personalities, their own likes & dislikes. I love knowing each one & working with each one. Some of my dogs are catch dogs (hog dogs--the ones that DA isn't a big issue with). One is a therapy dog who has her CGC & TT (& IS DA but I guess I should just euthanize her......) as well. All my dogs have a reason to be with me & that's just the way it is.

If you've never experienced it, I cannot express it in words. Especially when nothing I say or do is going to convince you otherwise that I don't starve my dogs, neglect my dogs, abuse my dogs, or fight my dogs. Many of y'all already have preconceived notions about us & refuse to change them for fear of being...gasp....wrong.

And just out of curiosity, why is it different with huskies? My best friend lives in Anchorage & I've haven't ever seen a yard where the dogs weren't chained. What is the difference in husky owners & "pit bull" owners that makes chainging ok with them but not with us?

And EVERYONE has answered this question, y'all just don't like the answer given: "Because we want to." Either accept it or don't, but don't claim we didn't give an answer.

[blue]

For one, these dogs weren't bred to be pack animals.

Then why have more than one or two?

Sledders I understand they need a team or teams.

[blue]

And just out of curiosity, why is it different with huskies? My best friend lives in Anchorage & I've haven't ever seen a yard where the dogs weren't chained. What is the difference in husky owners & "pit bull" owners that makes chainging ok with them but not with us

When was the last time you where in Anchorage?

I grew up there and I cant even say Ive seen a handful of comercial mushers opperating out of Anchorage.

Huskys arent bred for DA, they are bred to work as a team not fight another dog as the Dogmen bred. Huskys where bred to pull and enjoy it, and as such make the bush life easier.

[blue]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Assumptions don't carry any weight. To "assume" makes and "ass" out of "u"

Why didnt you finish the saying?

"Ass" out of "U" and in your case "Me".

Thats right.

[jess2416]

And it was going so well....:rolleyes:

[Georgygirl]

And it was going so well....

You took the words right out of my mouth Jess........:(

[silverpawz]

If you've never experienced it, I cannot express it in words.

I have three dogs. I have experienced the joy of owning multiples. I have one dog at my feet, and two on the sofa right now. That's why I cannot imagine having to make any dog I own live outside. I've seen how much joy they bring me by being a continual part of my life on a daily basis inside.

Especially when nothing I say or do is going to convince you otherwise that I don't starve my dogs, neglect my dogs, abuse my dogs, or fight my dogs.

I don't think you abuse your dogs or fight them. I just don't agree with how you keep them chained and seperate from the family. As someone else said, if you have 7 or 8 dogs it must be very hard to rotate them all so they get inside time on a regular basis.

Once a week sure, but I don't feel that's enough. If you're able to let your dogs in more often I'd appreciate knowing how you do so. What kind of schedule you keep to allow them all frequent inside time. Thanks.

[blue]

As for why do I have them? It's the same reason people have 2, 3,4 or more children. I love all my dogs individually.

I know a family of 7 kids.

So much from one post.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I can tell you why I own 7 dogs. Because I can. Because I love them all. Because I have the time for them all. If I had time for more I am sure I would have more.

Why do breeders have more than one dog. They can't always keep them together right. But they still have more than one dog.

People have the right to own more than one dog whether the dogs have DA issues or not.

The truth of the matter is that these people ARE taking care of their dogs. They DO get enough human interaction. They ARE being fed and watered. They ARE being loved. Trust me if they weren't doing all this their dogs would not be in the shape they are in.

Yes, with other breeds it is easier to have more than one dog.

I really don't see the problem with them chaining their dogs, having more than one dog, etc., when they are still being cared for. But that is just me.
If they were not taking care of their dogs properly then yes, I would have a big problem, but that is not the case here.

[LuvinBullies]

How is it that so many 'different' people have had so much first hand experience of the care of this particular dog...and are all here to say so?

(BTW, Amstaffer, kudos for your restraint when responding to Texas' emotional and offensive posts to you. I'm impressed! ;) )

D.

What can I say? We all belong to a really tight group of APBT lovers. I would never question the love Marty has for Lil Bit- her spirit is infectious, and so is the passion we all have for our APBT's on the site. When you know and love a breed so undyingly loyal to people and willing to please, so versatile and talented, misjudged, misunderstood, witch hunted, abused, killed by the droves weekly in his own country...a strong bond forms between people who truly understand, respect and love the breed.

I mean no disrespect to any other breed types or owners, nor do I doubt the passion others have for their own dogs. I only answered your question in the best way I know how.

[LuvinBullies]

Great post! :hail:

Yeah! I agree right there with you Mia- got some great talk going here and I also feel that was a great post- you are always an asset to any thread...

[frenchboxer]

Wow, have just ploughed through this thread and find it fascinating. I don't have anything to say other than I love Miakoda's dogs ~ they look beautiful. I don't know a thing about APBT's other than I love the way they look and the ones that I have met have been in dog parks.. off leash.. and have all been as sweet as pie.. with me as well as my Frenchie.

[LuvinBullies]

I can tell you why I own 7 dogs. Because I can. Because I love them all. Because I have the time for them all. If I had time for more I am sure I would have more.

Why do breeders have more than one dog. They can't always keep them together right. But they still have more than one dog.

People have the right to own more than one dog whether the dogs have DA issues or not.

The truth of the matter is that these people ARE taking care of their dogs. They DO get enough human interaction. They ARE being fed and watered. They ARE being loved. Trust me if they weren't doing all this their dogs would not be in the shape they are in.

Yes, with other breeds it is easier to have more than one dog.

I really don't see the problem with them chaining their dogs, having more than one dog, etc., when they are still being cared for. But that is just me.
If they were not taking care of their dogs properly then yes, I would have a big problem, but that is not the case here.

I went through an inner "is chaining ethical" debate with myself for years - even as a rep (FORMER REP) for a well known and recently controversial anti chaining organization. (There's a hot debate for ya...) Luckily I have also ridden and trained horses my whole life so I was able to arrive at a conclusive decision: An owner of multiple show/working horses loves them equally as any indoor pet, even as they spend their nights in their stalls or pastures.
Also, owners of multiple working dogs or show dogs treat their animals the same way. A proper chain for safety of the dog as well as other animals is a necessary hold and gives them space to move, as well as retreat to their own shelter (doghouse) as they please. Almost any APBT can make short work of any kennel, putting the animal at risk for injury, theft, confiscation by AC, etc. The properly chained dog is routinely off the chain for exercise and training- just as working/show horses are out of their stalls for their training- many tethered dogs even enjoy a certain rotation with others in their yard indoors with their owners. Are chains ever abused? As with anything, of course. However, proper use of tethering is certainly comparable to proper use of stalling horses. While my dogs enjoy the life of Riley as indoor lounge lizards- working dogs enjoy a whole different life experience, which is no less fulfilling. Working dogs/horses love to work- and the outdoors is where they do it.

[molena]

I am peripherally involved in a case near me in which 14 pit bulls were removed from someone's home by animal control. A neighbor had complained of barking, and animal control came in without a warrant, and found a skinny nursing bitch in the basement and 13 dogs chained in the backyard. I went and looked at the dogs at the shelter after they'd been seized, and the bitch was too thin. All the other dogs looked great, much like the dogs we've seen pictured on this thread (other than looking kind of sad in those shelter cages).

Even though tethering is legal in this county, the prosecutor is refusing to let the dogs go back to life on chains. The attorneys and judge refuse to believe that the 13 dogs are not too thin. The owners have been charged with 14 counts of criminal neglect. It is true that the owners should have had their nursing bitch eating better. I am not sure why they weren't taking better care or watching more closely. They are good people and care about their dogs, but they hadn't taken appropriate measures with regard to this one dog.

Because of the general public's outlook on chaining, appropriate care, and appropriate numbers of dogs, ALL these dogs - 14 beautiful, lovable, healthy dogs AND two puppies - are going to die. There is no way to stop it. The state is killing those dogs to make more room for more dogs they will kill later. The dogs could go back to this family who is more than willing to pay the fees, submit to inspections, and take better care. None of them will have a second chance, because, in the words of the prosecutor, "Life on a Chain is No Life" and "No-One Needs 14 Pit Bulls." (Funny how her self-righteousness is also getting her another feather in her cap at work where convictions are a must for promotion/salary increase/climbing the political ladder, and she also gets that that warm-and-fuzzy feeling one gets when protecting those poor animals ... with the needle, oh and "cleaning up the neighborhood" at the same time!)

So, my question is, who are the cruel ones here? Is death better than life on a chain? Because that's often the very sobering alternative. Are our judgments about what constitutes a good life for dogs helping or hurting?

(I personally feel traumatized by this situation, but nothing compared to what this family has experienced. Please resist the urge to bag on this family in this thread.)

[LuvinBullies]

I am peripherally involved in a case near me in which 14 pit bulls were removed from someone's home by animal control. A neighbor had complained of barking, and animal control came in without a warrant, and found a skinny nursing bitch in the basement and 13 dogs chained in the backyard. I went and looked at the dogs at the shelter after they'd been seized, and the bitch was too thin. All the other dogs looked great, much like the dogs we've seen pictured on this thread (other than looking kind of sad in those shelter cages).

Even though tethering is legal in this county, the prosecutor is refusing to let the dogs go back to life on chains. The attorneys and judge refuse to believe that the 13 dogs are not too thin. The owners have been charged with 14 counts of criminal neglect. It is true that the owners should have had their nursing bitch eating better. I am not sure why they weren't taking better care or watching more closely. They are good people and care about their dogs, but they hadn't taken appropriate measures with regard to this one dog.

Because of the general public's outlook on chaining, appropriate care, and appropriate numbers of dogs, ALL these dogs - 14 beautiful, lovable, healthy dogs AND two puppies - are going to die. There is no way to stop it. The state is killing those dogs to make more room for more dogs they will kill later. The dogs could go back to this family who is more than willing to pay the fees, submit to inspections, and take better care. None of them will have a second chance, because, in the words of the prosecutor, "Life on a Chain is No Life" and "No-One Needs 14 Pit Bulls." (Funny how her self-righteousness is also getting her another feather in her cap at work where convictions are a must for promotion/salary increase/climbing the political ladder, and she also gets that that warm-and-fuzzy feeling one gets when protecting those poor animals ... with the needle, oh and "cleaning up the neighborhood" at the same time!)

So, my question is, who are the cruel ones here? Is death better than life on a chain? Because that's often the very sobering alternative. Are our judgments about what constitutes a good life for dogs helping or hurting?

(I personally feel traumatized by this situation, but nothing compared to what this family has experienced. Please resist the urge to bag on this family in this thread.)

You can thank the cut throut anti tethering legislation cowboys for this as well. What a tragic story- one all too common. My heart goes out to the family and dogs. With this new wave of "NO CHAINS!" laws, it isn't just a crime to be an APBT, but a safely tethered APBT has double the death dose. My gracious thanks to the high-stepping legislation-happy lobbyists for continuing to ensure this wonderful breed's demise. They may say they love animals, they are liars. They do not love the APBT.

[elegy]

Can't handle them? Doberkim, is this really the arguement. Are 100's sitting on death row because people can't handle them or because IDIOTs get ahold of them and often use their HUMAN created traits to make them suffer.

there are hundreds of labs sitting on death row, too, you know. and they're generally not dog-aggressive at all.

Again, yes it's the humans. Why do you keep missing that in my posts?

probably because you keep posting about changing the dogs?? if you think they need to be changed so badly, clearly you must think they're the problem.

[elegy]

I don't know. Maybe I'm just confused as to why if we all know it's a human problem, then why the emphasis on changing the dogs? IMO, it doesn't make sense. And there's already a shift beginning in the thugs breed of choice. Bandogs, Presa Canarios, & Cane Corsos are gaining in popularity amongst the same thug crowd that pushed the "pit bull" into the spotlight. And yet, thanks to the media, they are all labeled as "pit bulls" so who really knows what the ratio is of true "pit bull" breeds to mixed breeds/other purebreds being labled as "pit bulls" really is. Hell, I get more "Hey girl, that's a nice pit" comments when I'm out with my OEB or with the Ca da Bous than I do when I'm walking one of my APBTs. Since all my APBTs range in weight from 34lbs to 55lbs, most people think I have mixed breeds. So this just this adds to the belief that it's the looks of the dog, the intimidation factor, that is the real driving force behind thugs/byb/peddlers with "pit bulls" than dog aggression.

karen delise tells a lovely little story in her fatal dog attacks book about how after diane whipple was attacked and killed by two presa canarios and the media finally clarified that they were presas, *not* pit bulls, many of the presa breeders started getting phone calls from people looking to buy "the kind of dog that killed that lady in california".

[Miakoda]

When was the last time you where in Anchorage?

I grew up there and I cant even say Ive seen a handful of comercial mushers opperating out of Anchorage.

Huskys arent bred for DA, they are bred to work as a team not fight another dog as the Dogmen bred. Huskys where bred to pull and enjoy it, and as such make the bush life easier.

Did I say that we went dogsledding through Anchorage? Nope. And I know what Huskies were bred to do.

So let's see, what about since I hog hunt? Should I be limited to only 1 dog b/c y'all think so & be forced to hunt with only 1 dog? Is it possible for a dog to be a bay dog & a catch dog & bring down a 300lb board by itself? I'd love to see that dog since according to y'all I have no business owning more than one dog.

And assuming doens't make an ass out of me. It looks like that b/c the person assuming is telling lies & making up stories, but the truth defends me & protects me. I could care less what y'all think of me. I'm here to defend my dogs.

And I don't understand it. Here y'all are, preaching to us how y'all are trying to fight BSL, yet the things y'all say & do are actually more along the lines of trying to enforce it. You say you love the breed, yet you don't want anyone to own it. You say you love the breed, but God forbid we actually work the dogs. You say you love the breed, but you want to change it & make it into a lab. That's not love. That's called a power trip.

Once a week sure, but I don't feel that's enough.
Again, an assumption. No matter how many times I, we, say it, it never gets throught to people.

And I've realized one thing throughout this whole post: it's not a dog chainng issue, it's not a conditioning issue, it's a "pit bull" issue. Most of y'all are ready to rid the world of "pit bulls" so they can no longer be "abuesed". If you go to the PETA homepage, this is also their motto & way of thinking & we know what a reliable & reasonable organization they are. It's already been said that it's ok & understandable for husky owners to chain, but not us. It's ok for hundreds of thousands of labs to die in the shelters, but "pit bulls" are the only ones discussed in an effort to drastically reduce their population. It's very clear that y'all would prefer that our dogs are confiscated & euthanized b/c that's nicer than having to stay on a chain when confined.

And just out of curiosity, what do y'all think of sheep farmers who still use dogs like the Great Pyranese to LIVE with & guard their flocks? You think these dogs have ever seen a couch? Or a thick $150 bed from Petco? You think these dogs sleep in the beds with children & romp & play with their humans? Guess again. These dogs have a purpose & it's not one as a pet. They live their entire lives with the flock independent of a lot of human contact. I guess that pisses y'all off as well?

The big issue here, once again, is trying to rid the world of "pit bulls" so they will no longer be abused. But even if it did work, another breed will only take its place. And let's also rid the world of working dogs b/c it's cruel & inhumane to not treat them as pets (most true that's right, working dogs are not pets). Screw the military & the police forces, their inhumane treatment of dogs has got to go. No wonder why BSL is proving so hard to fight. Because the owners of other breeds claiming to help fight it, are actually doing the opposite. Yay.:rolleyes:

[cheeky]

Worked with Sal....He is dog obsessive but likes 99.9 percent of the ones he meets. He has even be attacked (Golden Ret.) and thought it was just a game. The only dog he dislikes is a Collie who walks on our regular route, he has chances to bite him but just growls funny and jumps on top of him. (the guy with the collie doesn't believe in leashes :mad: )

I have never seen a dog who likes other dogs more than Sal and Athena.

PS J. Crew....I agree with you and keep up the good fight!!


No where did I say they did not exist. Not ALL pit bulls are dog aggressive either. Just because your Am Staffs are not DA doesn't mean they all are.

[cheeky]

Exactly, not all pits are DA.

DA can be bred down the same as many other temp. traits are bred down in many other breeds, by selective breeding. Again, and I'm not sure why the strong opposition to this suggestion, but I'm not in any way talking about drastically changing this dog.:confused:

AGAIN I ask, how do you propose to do this without adding in other breeds? Do you read posts or not? This question has been asked repeatedly, if you are SO sure it can be done.......please, tell me how. It has not been totally successful in the Am Staff.

Oh and ONE more thing on the chaining that has been bugging me. Someone said something about a dog wondering into another dogs chains space & getting killed. Perhaps if the wandering dogs OWNER had obeyed the LEASH LAWS already is effect it wouldn't have gotten into trouble would it? So, you propose to add MORE laws to the ones already being broken? That makes soo much sense!

[DanL]

This has been a very interesting thread. Educational and unbelievably civil. I think that Lil Bit looks great, a good example of a healthy dog.

I think most of us agree that the problem with dogs like this is people, not the dogs. People exploiting the dogs inbred traits for their own amusement. I also agree that once the pit fad fades, it will just move on to other dogs like the Presa and Corso. It was GSDs, Dobies, Rotties before the PB.

As far as the one post about herding dogs and specifically how the GSD has been changed, many of us GSD owners are not happy about that either. You can still find good GSDs who can work and do what they were bred for, and many people are trying to bring that type of dog back. We don't care if they will ever win a show, we care that they are stable tempered and exhibit the traits of the breed.

[cheeky]

If this is for me, you have no idea how much time I spend trying to help this breed specifically. Look at the flip side, is it better for the breed to remain DA or for those who claim to love them?


If you give soo mush help to this breed.WHY are you insisting that it be changed? Those who truly love this breed accept it for what it is. Can't accept it? Then leave it alone.

[cheeky]

Can't handle them? Doberkim, is this really the arguement. Are 100's sitting on death row because people can't handle them or because IDIOTs get ahold of them and often use their HUMAN created traits to make them suffer.

Actually...........both. You rescue & don't know this?

[doberkim]

If you give soo mush help to this breed.WHY are you insisting that it be changed? Those who truly love this breed accept it for what it is. Can't accept it? Then leave it alone.

"i love you... just not the way you are"

haven't we all heard that before :)

[cheeky]

I can tell you why I own 7 dogs. Because I can. Because I love them all. Because I have the time for them all. If I had time for more I am sure I would have more.

Why do breeders have more than one dog. They can't always keep them together right. But they still have more than one dog.

People have the right to own more than one dog whether the dogs have DA issues or not.

The truth of the matter is that these people ARE taking care of their dogs. They DO get enough human interaction. They ARE being fed and watered. They ARE being loved. Trust me if they weren't doing all this their dogs would not be in the shape they are in.

Yes, with other breeds it is easier to have more than one dog.

I really don't see the problem with them chaining their dogs, having more than one dog, etc., when they are still being cared for. But that is just me.
If they were not taking care of their dogs properly then yes, I would have a big problem, but that is not the case here.


Thank you!!

I own more than one bully becuase I want to. I love this breed, I love these dogs. So what if my dogs cannot be together. Why does that bother you people so much? It doesn't bother them at all. My dogs are happy, healthy, loved & well taken care of. Isn't that what is important?

[Roxy's CD]

While I totally agree that genetics does play a huge role with DA, it's not the whole story. Depending on the variants between genetics and environmental... Sometimes the genetics will overrule environment, or vice versa. *cough HADES cough*

I think the main point as well is, it is NOT human aggression that the APBT is known for. Many DA breeds can get along quite well when a human is present. The Presa breeder I spoke with said just that. But leave her pack alone and they would tear each other apart.

The majority of pits I believe can be trained and worked with to a point where they CAN be in the presence of another dog and behave beautifully. Only a purely irresponsible owner would forget where their dog came from.

But as many of you know, my stance on "All pitbulls are DA" is just plainly and simply quite soft compared the many of you. Be that as it may, Hades is not fully grown and matured, but to date, we have not had one incident in my household that would lead me to believe Hades is your typical, drooling, snarling, DA pitbull.

Personally, I didn't get a pitbull because of their history. And to be honest, it would worry me, if someone told me they purchased a pitbull because they were once used in dog fighting. That is not a good reason.

Most dog lovers who favour pitbulls, do so because of the breeds OTHER traits, not specifically the trait that makes them the breed they are today. AKA. DA.

To respect and know where the dogs came from, that's just being a responsible owner.

[cheeky]

I am peripherally involved in a case near me in which 14 pit bulls were removed from someone's home by animal control. A neighbor had complained of barking, and animal control came in without a warrant, and found a skinny nursing bitch in the basement and 13 dogs chained in the backyard. I went and looked at the dogs at the shelter after they'd been seized, and the bitch was too thin. All the other dogs looked great, much like the dogs we've seen pictured on this thread (other than looking kind of sad in those shelter cages).

Even though tethering is legal in this county, the prosecutor is refusing to let the dogs go back to life on chains. The attorneys and judge refuse to believe that the 13 dogs are not too thin. The owners have been charged with 14 counts of criminal neglect. It is true that the owners should have had their nursing bitch eating better. I am not sure why they weren't taking better care or watching more closely. They are good people and care about their dogs, but they hadn't taken appropriate measures with regard to this one dog.

Because of the general public's outlook on chaining, appropriate care, and appropriate numbers of dogs, ALL these dogs - 14 beautiful, lovable, healthy dogs AND two puppies - are going to die. There is no way to stop it. The state is killing those dogs to make more room for more dogs they will kill later. The dogs could go back to this family who is more than willing to pay the fees, submit to inspections, and take better care. None of them will have a second chance, because, in the words of the prosecutor, "Life on a Chain is No Life" and "No-One Needs 14 Pit Bulls." (Funny how her self-righteousness is also getting her another feather in her cap at work where convictions are a must for promotion/salary increase/climbing the political ladder, and she also gets that that warm-and-fuzzy feeling one gets when protecting those poor animals ... with the needle, oh and "cleaning up the neighborhood" at the same time!)

So, my question is, who are the cruel ones here? Is death better than life on a chain? Because that's often the very sobering alternative. Are our judgments about what constitutes a good life for dogs helping or hurting?

(I personally feel traumatized by this situation, but nothing compared to what this family has experienced. Please resist the urge to bag on this family in this thread.)

Now THAT is sad.

[Texasbulldogs]

Silverpawz:

Texasbulldogs, if you can't understand my posts then that's your problem and not mine. I'm using proper english, if you can't comprehend what I'm typing then there's nothing I can do about that.
I understand it fine…after all who can understand jibber jabber filled with absolutely zero factual information or experience? Instead of stating how, “There’s nothing I can do” how about actually giving something besides an uneducated opinion based on falsehood and misinformation fabricated in your imagination?

Apparently people who disagree with you all have 'wild imaginations' and 'can't answer questions'. Fine. Nice side stepping. I'm not going to go around in circles with you on these issues as it's like talking to a brick wall.
Never once stated such nonsense but you do fit that description rather well! I based that simply by your outlandish perceptions you’re attempting to make to back up your claims and uneducated views. Shall we look at the facts? My first post was # 293 and on your post # 300 you directly replied to my post. On post # 341 I replied to yours and other member’s direct question in regards to my initial post and posed some directly towards y’all. Not a sole member answered them…not even one! Wasn’t until post # 455 that one of them was addressed by Amstaffer. Even though afterwards you posted more questions directly to me specifically, based on what I wrote once again you failed to answer a single question, offer any information to back up your outlandish claims, and if the response wasn’t one you envisioned it would be you simply attempted to reword or make excuses on how you didn’t mean such and such as such despite you writing it. In the numerous post you’ve made on this thread can you point out a single informative post you’ve made based on actual firsthand experience, studies, anything other than your uneducated opinion based on your imagination and what you’ve been brainwashed to perceive it as? One would think if you or anyone else is so sure of the ill effects of chaining, condition of a dog, etc you/they would have more than just an opinion to base the views on. But not a single member has seen such from you or the others that share similar views, solely just useless opinions! So please tell…who is side stepping and avoiding?

Amstaffer:

Because some areas are backward and ignorant...They lack the cultural development to have empathy to other beings.
Of course that’s it couldn’t be ones perspective on what is cruelty and not? After all we know every person in such organizations or humane groups view everything in the same light.

Are they changing or evolving to a higher state?
That would be dependant on ones view of it I suppose?

Well actually in Europe (some countries) and in Oregon that is now the case...another case of evolving. Why not allow a person who is dying to go with dignity just like we do to our dying and suffering dogs..
Well we don’t reside in Europe and in Oregon don’t believe anyone has ever received such treatment! Is “dignity” what you tell yourself to get over the fact you intentionally killed that so-called “family member”, not only that but has a stranger willingly do it for you?

Ah so your reason for supporting abuse you find ok is say "well tommy breaks the rules so why can't I break the rules?"
Please show me anywhere on the internet I supported abuse or used what others do/did to justify my own actions? I not once said anything other than people should be more concerned about what happens in their own yard and household and less about what their neighbor, someone down the block or in another state is doing or how they’re treating their animals. Ironic how we had much less problems in all regards to our animals before the busy bodies started concerning themselves and elevating the status of an animal. Equally odd how those same “enlightened ones” tend to be the less educated on the so-called animals their saving.

Why is DA such important part of the breed for so many of you?
It’s not that it’s important what is though is all the traits that make up the breed. Breeding is not as simplistic as being about to just say, “Well I don’t want “X” trait but I want to retain or improve all the others this breed has”! Sure someone can take dog aggression out of the breed…what other traits will be lost in that process and other negative ones added in the process?


It’s apparent that the chaining issues is not one of cruelty or one that is a result of being inhumane given not any of the self-righteous proponents of it has listed anything backing up their claims. Simply only stated their opinions back up by nothing. Though they have went to extremes and are under the impression a chained animal is automatically abandoned and not done anything with. Never once thinking if that was going to happen and the mentality of said owner it would happen on a chain, in a kennel, or even in a house. What it ultimately boils down to is simply the perspective of a pet owner versus that of enthusiast that cherish, a breeds working traits and abilities above anything else. Amazing how those same pet owners complaining about how cruel this or that is never once look in the mirror and see how they and others like them are the number one problem in all working breeds! Until the pet owners and strictly conformation breeders got their hands on any working breed the dogs where healthier, more stable, didn’t have problems with running the streets, attacking people, etc. Seems odd how dogs in pet homes tend to be the over weight ones, problem ones, those seen negatively on the media, etc. For all the enlightened pet owners that believe a dog is only happy if in a house. Please explain why the over whelming major of any of the great working dogs of any breed always tend to be those kept outdoors? The best representatives of all working dogs tend to be those kept outdoors properly contained in a kennel, chain set-up, etc owned by true enthusiast of the breed that covet it’s working traits. Which also tend to receive more exercise and training, are better breed, healthier, and over all a better adjusted more capable dog breed and doing what it was designed to do.


To those that constantly claim and attempt to use “weight” as a reason it’s so cruel for the dogs. Please explain how it’s so heavy like you constantly claim as I’ve already shown based on my own clothing weight and dogs chain weight how I carry 237 times what the dog is. Either; start providing something other than an uneducated opinion to back up your claims and going to extremes or shut up and possibly open you mind so that you may possibly learn something!

[cheeky]

"i love you... just not the way you are"

haven't we all heard that before :)


Yup. I agree

[doberkim]

but to date, we have not had one incident in my household that would lead me to believe Hades is your typical, drooling, snarling, DA pitbull.


DA pit bulls/APBT's are not drooling, snarling "typical" DA dogs.

elegy posted pics of her bitch luce doing some lovely heeling recently - that dog is DA. that dog also met my male doberman and was fine, and lived with a 10 lb miniature poodle that was very ill. she currently lives with a male bully (that i helped her adopt, since he was in my clinics shelter) she goes to obedience class, she goes to dog shows and events, she has her CGC - and yet no one (much less elegy) will deny that she IS a DA dog.

DA dogs are not out of control freaks. Many of them can be trained and handled in public with no one knowing any different, most are perfectly lovely around humans. DA does NOT mean a bad dog.

hades is a young dog - many bully breeds do NOT show aggression until they fully mature, and even then, its NOT in every situation. Our point the last time we discussed this was that there is being safe and preventative, and there is ignoring a vital part of the dogs history. But that was another thread...

I'll say it one more time - DA does NOT mean it is a bad dog!

[SisMorphine]

I read the first 20 pages and then only read the last couple. Talk about a long thread!!
DA pit bulls/APBT's are not drooling, snarling "typical" DA dogs.

elegy posted pics of her bitch luce doing some lovely heeling recently - that dog is DA. that dog also met my male doberman and was fine, and lived with a 10 lb miniature poodle that was very ill. she currently lives with a male bully (that i helped her adopt, since he was in my clinics shelter) she goes to obedience class, she goes to dog shows and events, she has her CGC - and yet no one (much less elegy) will deny that she IS a DA dog.

DA dogs are not out of control freaks. Many of them can be trained and handled in public with no one knowing any different, most are perfectly lovely around humans. DA does NOT mean a bad dog.

hades is a young dog - many bully breeds do NOT show aggression until they fully mature, and even then, its NOT in every situation. Our point the last time we discussed this was that there is being safe and preventative, and there is ignoring a vital part of the dogs history. But that was another thread...

I'll say it one more time - DA does NOT mean it is a bad dog!
I fully agree. Most of my club members have APBTs and every single one of them is dog aggressive. But in a controlled situation you would never know it. We recently had a competition which involved a temperment test that was specifically designed for the APBT. In that test two people had to do long downs with their dogs next to each other (not RIGHT next to each other, but within 10 or 15 feet). Though almost all of the dogs on the field that day were known to be DA, not one single dog took a shot at the other because they all have better training than that.

There are also different levels of DA. Some dogs can't be within smelling distance of another dog without wanting to start something (though to me, much of that can be helped with very strict obedience training), for others it is only certain dogs, and even for others they are fine until play gets too rough, or until they are challenged, and then they're ready to go.

A DA dog isn't a bad dog, it is just a dog who needs more management, but who deserves the same amount of care and affection as a non-DA dog.

[Amstaffer]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/doubleteam.jpg
.

The dog in the middle being "attacked" could be my Athena's younger sister... Cute picture.

[Amstaffer]

No where did I say they did not exist. Not ALL pit bulls are dog aggressive either. Just because your Am Staffs are not DA doesn't mean they all are.

What I was replying to and the point I was make was that, with Amstaffs they have been trying to breed out DA and it seems to be working. I was also trying to say that IMHO DA can be socialized and trained into Dog Dominance but not aggression.

[2nd2none]

Roxy said:

To respect and know where the dogs came from, that's just being a responsible owner



Amen! :hail:
VERY well said!!!

agreed, it's ONLY part!

...part...

[SisMorphine]

What I was replying to and the point I was make was that, with Amstaffs they have been trying to breed out DA and it seems to be working. I was also trying to say that IMHO DA can be socialized and trained into Dog Dominance but not aggression.
A truly dominant alpha dog and a dog aggressive dog are two COMPLETELY different things. You can't turn dog aggression into dominance. Dog aggression is dog aggression. It can be managed to a certain extend, but cannot be trained out of a dog or turned into something else.

A very DA dog wants dogs dead at the drop of a hat for seemingly little to no reason. A true alpha dog controls all situations with a calm, firm, and fair hand (paw).

I have two alpha males living in my house. Both are very sure of themselves, neither have ever started a fight. An alpha will correct other dogs, but won't start a fight. But because they won't start a fight doesn't mean they won't finish it, but that's not dog aggression, that's simply canine communication.

[cheeky]

What I was replying to and the point I was make was that, with Amstaffs they have been trying to breed out DA and it seems to be working. I was also trying to say that IMHO DA can be socialized and trained into Dog Dominance but not aggression.


They have been trying to for decades. Has it worked? Not really. There are plenty of cold Am Staffs, but there are plenty of hot ones as well. The breed name was changed, nothing else was added to the breed, the breed still has the heart of a pit bull. A DA dog can be trained to behave onleash, I have one. On leash he will ignore other dogs ( unless they approach him & get in his face) but off leash is another story. He is VERY dog aggressive, he would be perfectly happy being the ONLY dog on the planet. And he was socialized heavily, and he is bred from cold dogs. There are no guarantees that a pit bull OR Am Staff will not be DA. if you want a guarantee.....you better look at a different breed. And even then..........there was a lady at the vet a few months ago with an EXTREMLY DA boston. Where'd THAT come from?

[SisMorphine]

There are no guarantees that a pit bull OR Am Staff will not be DA. if you want a guarantee.....you better look at a different breed. And even then..........there was a lady at the vet a few months ago with an EXTREMLY DA boston. Where'd THAT come from?
Well Bostons supposedly have a good link to the APBTs of the past, so I'd say that's where that came from. Plus it's a "terrier" which are known to have DA tendencies, but for the most part terriers are smaller dogs so no one really discusses it as an issue.

I had a severly DA Golden Retriever pup in my daycare last spring. He was young and it turned out that it was genetic with him. His father was actually severely dog aggressive, which we found out when he was 3 months old. This is not something that is acceptable in the temperment of a Golden, but did it happen? Hell yeah. It can happen to any dog, any breed, any time. There are just some breeds (bulldogs and terriers) that are far more prone to it.

[GHOST]

I think what you're saying is sort of "use it or loose it"...is that what you mean?:confused:

yes,,, what happens through generations of socialization,,,, it will lose the dog agression but in a few generations of no use,,,things behavior changes through generations with socializing with ppl,,,

[Renee750il]

karen delise tells a lovely little story in her fatal dog attacks book about how after diane whipple was attacked and killed by two presa canarios and the media finally clarified that they were presas, *not* pit bulls, many of the presa breeders started getting phone calls from people looking to buy "the kind of dog that killed that lady in california".

The real kicker is that they were NOT pure-bred Presas. They were crosses, bred and conditioned to be hyper-aggressive. Again, the problem isn't the dogs - it's the human factor :mad:

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer:[/B]

Because some areas are backward and ignorant...They lack the cultural development to have empathy to other beings.
Of course that’s it couldn’t be ones perspective on what is cruelty and not? After all we know every person in such organizations or humane groups view everything in the same light.

There are personal views in this world but you must admit there are absolutes in this world! Somethings can be discussed and agreed on as wrong. I honestly believe that people that for example: Chain up 10 dogs outside and give them little human interaction must know it there hearts that they are doing something wrong. A person should not have more dogs than they can make and maintain a close emotional bond with. My rule of thumb, if I can't fit another dog in my bed...I can't get another dog.

Are they changing or evolving to a higher state?
That would be dependant on ones view of it I suppose?
Again I actually believe there are right and wrong in the world not just all ambitious PC gray area.

Well actually in Europe (some countries) and in Oregon that is now the case...another case of evolving. Why not allow a person who is dying to go with dignity just like we do to our dying and suffering dogs..
Well we don’t reside in Europe and in Oregon don’t believe anyone has ever received such treatment!

Well you don't believe...its not about your beliefs, it is a fact that Euthanaisa is real..sorry.

Is “dignity” what you tell yourself to get over the fact you intentionally killed that so-called “family member”, not only that but has a stranger willingly do it for you?

If I was dying and suffering or injuried in a way that left me completely crippled (eg quadriplegic) I would hope to God someone would have the mercy to give me peace.

Ah so your reason for supporting abuse you find ok is say "well tommy breaks the rules so why can't I break the rules?"
Please show me anywhere on the internet I supported abuse or used what others do/did to justify my own actions? I not once said anything other than people should be more concerned about what happens in their own yard and household and less about what their neighbor, someone down the block or in another state is doing or how they’re treating their animals. Ironic how we had much less problems in all regards to our animals before the busy bodies started concerning themselves and elevating the status of an animal. Equally odd how those same “enlightened ones” tend to be the less educated on the so-called animals their saving.

What I was referring to was you saying that people who have fat dogs or who are not mental simulated because they are just pets are abusing dogs, so that is ok for people to chain up large amounts of dogs outside and neglect them (emotional).

Why is DA such important part of the breed for so many of you?
It’s not that it’s important what is though is all the traits that make up the breed. Breeding is not as simplistic as being about to just say, “Well I don’t want “X” trait but I want to retain or improve all the others this breed has”! Sure someone can take dog aggression out of the breed…what other traits will be lost in that process and other negative ones added in the process?

DA is out dated and clearly has no value in society today. It is atleast as bad as a genetic disease. Many Pit Bulls have HD but we breed to eliminate that...right? Why can't breeders of Pit Bulls slowly weed out dog aggression and keep all the other great traits? Pit Bulls don't need to be DA to be Pit Bulls. Both my dogs are just fine without it. They have all the other traits and are wonderful dogs. I truely feel that people who insist on keeping dog aggression have a dubious agenda.


It’s apparent that the chaining issues is not one of cruelty

It is only apparent to you and your supporters because you do it and refuse to admit it is wrong. That is not apparent it is a rationalization.



. Amazing how those same pet owners complaining about how cruel this or that is never once look in the mirror and see how they and others like them are the number one problem in all working breeds! Until the pet owners and strictly conformation breeders got their hands on any working breed the dogs where healthier, more stable, didn’t have problems with running the streets, attacking people, etc.

You are again saying "because tommy breaks the rules, I can break the rules or my behavior is "as" wrong or even bad" This is bad logic. Your actions stand a lone to be judge by themselves.


Seems odd how dogs in pet homes tend to be the over weight ones, problem ones, those seen negatively on the media, etc. For all the enlightened pet owners that believe a dog is only happy if in a house. Please explain why the over whelming major of any of the great working dogs of any breed always tend to be those kept outdoors?
I this is not a fact. This is your opinion base on your experience the vast major of the working dogs I know. Live in the house with their owner.






To those that constantly claim and attempt to use “weight” as a reason it’s so cruel for the dogs. Please explain how it’s so heavy like you constantly claim as I’ve already shown based on my own clothing weight and dogs chain weight how I carry 237 times what the dog is. Either; start providing something other than an uneducated opinion to back up your claims and going to extremes or shut up and possibly open you mind so that you may possibly learn something!

I don't know what kind of clothes that you where that is 237 times heavier that a heavy chain that some people use on dogs. Also is all the weight of the close evenly distributed over your body or is it strapped across your neck (usually 2 to 3 vertrbra)



My reponses are in Red bold.........

[SisMorphine]

The real kicker is that they were NOT pure-bred Presas. They were crosses, bred and conditioned to be hyper-aggressive. Again, the problem isn't the dogs - it's the human factor :mad:
Exactly. And though I understand people and their want for a dog to protect them, when you have a naturally protective breed like a Presa you should be focussing more on socialization than making it aggressive. Because even the most social protective breed dog will protect it's owner.

One day I'll have a Presa. I LOVE them. One of my club member has this big old male, he's 12 I think, that I just want to snuggle day in and day out. He's dopey and friendly, but you'd better believe he'd protect his momma or his little boy if necessary (he is also protection trained, which is NOT aggression training . . . at least not at the club I'm at).

[Amstaffer]

A truly dominant alpha dog and a dog aggressive dog are two COMPLETELY different things. You can't turn dog aggression into dominance. Dog aggression is dog aggression. It can be managed to a certain extend, but cannot be trained out of a dog or turned into something else.
finish it, but that's not dog aggression, that's simply canine communication.

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.

[Amstaffer]

They have been trying to for decades. Has it worked? Not really. ?

We'll the Amstaff has been its own breed for about 70 years and yes it has worked. The average Amstaff is more stable and less DA that the average APBT. However I think one of the problems is people have intermingled the two (thanks to the UKC).

It can be done.

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

I will say too that I am against cropping/docking tails & ears. I have a pit foster now with cropped ears. The day before I read this thread (or some of it, too long to read it all), I was thinking to myself that I wish whoever had him before would have left his ears natural (he actually looks almost identical like your black dog Amstaffer). A lot of people think that pits with cropped ears are "scary" as well just because of the way they look. It's stupid but true.

[molena]

I am wondering about responses to Mia's question about Great Pyrenees and other livestock guardian dogs. I tried to adopt a beautiful young GP female from a rescue a few years ago to keep my male company out with my 12 Angora goats. The rescue would not think of it because she would be sleeping in the barn, not the house. Instead she was adopted to a man in a small condo in the city. So a huge dog like that, bred to work, is better off in a shoebox than being outdoors doing what she was bred to do? :confused:

have we not gone a little nuts here with the dogs-must-sleep-in-the-bed mentality?

[SisMorphine]

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.
But the problem is that dominance (just has some dog aggression, especially in APBTS) is a temperment NOT a behavior. Behaviors are something that you can work on throughout a dog's life. Though obviously if the behavior has been going on for years it will be harder to train out. But a dog's temperment is set in stone.

There are 7 different elements that go into a dog's temperment. 6 of those happen either in the womb or while nursing and spending time with mom and pups (I don't have my notebook on me that has them listed since I'm moving and it's packed, if I can find it I'll let you know). The last one happens only up until 12 weeks (16 depending on who you talk to) and can be molded by human interaction. So we only have control over 1 of 7 things. A dog is born with it's level of dominance/submission, with can be exaggerated through different experiences, and can be subdued through kinds of training, but Temperment is not something a human can fully change. Influence when young, yes, change, no.

[adoptashelterpettoday]

I volunteer with many rescues, and I have no problem with an outside dog as long as the family spends time with it and properly cares for it. Especially a breed with a full coat like a GP.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

We have established that people were not saying that they agree with dog fighting today but accept and respect the fact that without the fighting historically, these dogs would not be what we love today. :D

[Miakoda]

and I have no problem with an outside dog as long as the family spends time with it and properly cares for it.

And that's what truly matters.

Is it cruel that miliatary & police dogs are kept in kennels only to be taken out for training & when on active duty? These dogs are not kept in their handler's homes being fed twinkies by the children & sleep in the beds. So are they abused to?

IMO, forcing little anklebiters to wear clothes & carrying them around in pet carriers or purses all day long & not allowing them down to walk on a leash or on the ground & BE A DOG is cruel. Dogs weren't put here to be our baby dolls & fashion models. They aren't accessories to whatever we wear that day.

[tommyt]

Firstoff, I wanted to say that I keep my dog indoors. However, when he is outside, he is on a chain setup. This is for his protection and to keep both of us out of any trouble. Honest to God, if I had more land I would put my dog on a chain more often. I am sure that he would rather sit outside while I am at work than sitting in the house looking at the walls. Some of you feel that chaining is wrong, regardless of the amount of human interaction it receives. I fail to see the logic behind this.
Think about it, we are all crazy about our dogs. The people from our forum are no different than you. We are spending our time defending our dogs because they mean alot to us. I know that there are people who chain up dogs and pay them no mind. However, there are many that do give the dogs the human interaction they need. I can guarantee you, if we didn't care enough to give adequate attention to our dogs, we wouldn't be here spending all this time defending them. What I am saying, consider the fact that a dog may not be neglected or abused simply because it is on a chain. If you see someone with a yard full of chained dogs looking like Lil Bit, please don't jump to crazy conclusions. They may be very well taken care of.
This is a very big fear for alot of APBT owners. Hence, the reason people are so jumpy about the topic. People have had their entire yard of dogs taken away because they were chained up. All the while, they were very well taken care of. Just because they are on the chain, it does not make them any less of a family member. It is very devastating to lose the dogs you raised and became attatched to.

By the way, my dog is on a 24 foot chain. That is the size of a 50x50 foot kennel. A kennel this size would cost alot of money. It would cost about the same for me to fence in the entire yard. However, a kennel or fenced in yard would not be adequate to secure this dog. As you can see, the weight is of no issue to him and he has not become mean or territorial over his chain space either. Here are a few pictures of him jumping around for the flirt pole.

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL703/3106115/11878017/199142322.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL703/3106115/11878017/199142303.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL703/3106115/11878017/199142320.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL703/3106115/11878017/199142311.jpg

[Roxy's CD]

Doberkim

I don't believe you read my entire post.

I'll clarify some statements just to make it a bit more clear:

The majority of pits I believe can be trained and worked with to a point where they CAN be in the presence of another dog and behave beautifully.

I believe you stated that "DA does not mean a bad dog". That is precisely what I meant in that quote. Despite DA, any dog can be trained to behave beautifully and seemingly have no DA at all.

Be that as it may, Hades is not fully grown and matured, but to date,...

You also stated almost in the same words as I previously have, that many breeds, you mentioned bully breeds specifically, will not have any signs of DA until a few years into life, I assume you were speaking of the "magic age", of 2 years old.

My quote I thought was clear, but did state, Hades is NOT fully matured, BUT TO DATE, meaning presently and the complete duration of his life SO FAR we have had no incidents.

Regardless, as you stated that's another thread.

Some quick points on my wonderfully, what appears to be very different view on pitbulls (which is partly due to my own experience with what so far, is not mentally a "breed standard" DA pitbull):

-genetics combined with environment is what makes a dog the dog it is (variants of either or, are totally possible, EX) A DA pitbull, that despite training cannot behave whilst in the presence of other dogs OR OF COURSE a pitbull who has NO DA whatsoever)

-knowledge of any dog's breed standard regarding aggression should ALWAYS be taken into account

And what I feel to be the most important part, is WHY someone "likes" or loves the breed, APBT so greatly.

Is it because they were used in dog fighting?

I would hope not. Yes, DA is very likely. But hopefully that isn't why you've chosen the breed, so I see no issue with working hard, training and breeding for pitbulls who are not DA. Yes, that is their history. Yes, you can respect that history. But there is nothing wrong with trying to rid the pitbull of the "dog fighting" DA standard.

Dog fighting is illegal. So why breed a dog to do something illegal? Why not focus on all of the other very appealing points of a pitbull?

[Miakoda]

Tommy, you heathen you. :D

And molena, I don't think we are going to get an answer about the other breeds & other scenarios b/c this truly isn't a chaining issue, it's a "pit bull" issue.

[Renee750il]

And that's what truly matters.

Is it cruel that miliatary & police dogs are kept in kennels only to be taken out for training & when on active duty? These dogs are not kept in their handler's homes being fed twinkies by the children & sleep in the beds. So are they abused to?

IMO, forcing little anklebiters to wear clothes & carrying them around in pet carriers or purses all day long & not allowing them down to walk on a leash or on the ground & BE A DOG is cruel. Dogs weren't put here to be our baby dolls & fashion models. They aren't accessories to whatever we wear that day.

:hail: Now there is something that can't be stressed enough! I wish the media would spend some time examining this and less time sensationalizing, fear mongering and mis-identifying and mis-labeling . . .

[Miakoda]

Yes, DA is very likely. But hopefully that isn't why you've chosen the breed, so I see no issue with working hard, training and breeding for pitbulls who are not DA. Yes, that is their history. Yes, you can respect that history. But there is nothing wrong with trying to rid the pitbull of the "dog fighting" DA standard.

Dog fighting is illegal. So why breed a dog to do something illegal? Why not focus on all of the other very appealing points of a pitbull?

Ok. So if dog aggression is trait derived specifically from being bred to fight other dogs, then explain why ALL terrier breeds & bulldog breeds (including the boxer) have some level of DA (as an overall breed--of course there are some with little to none & I've never stated otherwise). Explain why the most DA animal I've ever met was a black lab. Explain why there are many a dog in EVERY breed that have some level of DA. Because if DA is a trait directly associated with being bred to fight, then that would mean every other breed was bred to do the same & we are not that ignorant to believe such a bogus theory.

Also I chose the APBT for various reasons & none have to do with dog aggerssion. BUT dog aggression comes with it, therefore I accept it & love it anyways.

Doberkim said it best: "I love you.......but not the way you are". This is y'alls motto. Such a shame as that's not love.

[Miakoda]

:hail: Now there is something that can't be stressed enough! I wish the media would spend some time examining this and less time sensationalizing, fear mongering and mis-identifying and mis-labeling . . .

LOL. Now that's a whole other topic, but I'm willing to go there if you are.:D

[GHOST]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

I will say too that I am against cropping/docking tails & ears. I have a pit foster now with cropped ears. The day before I read this thread (or some of it, too long to read it all), I was thinking to myself that I wish whoever had him before would have left his ears natural (he actually looks almost identical like your black dog Amstaffer). A lot of people think that pits with cropped ears are "scary" as well just because of the way they look. It's stupid but true.

a true dogman don't put his mess out for someone else to deal with,,,it's called culling,,, i know ,with that said it will offend some but is a true fact,,now some of the up and coming punks out there that wish they knew,,,
but the fact is we have our dogs because it's what we want,,,i had german shepards,,, true to form from excellent lines,,, and they don't compare even close to the pitbulls i have,,, i've had pibulls for 20 years and anything else just can't compare,,,to them,,

DA isn't really that big of a problem if dealt with properly,,
javascript:add(" #barefact# ")

[Renee750il]

LOL. Now that's a whole other topic, but I'm willing to go there if you are.:D

That one deserves a thread of its own, lol!

[Roxy's CD]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Miakoda. I truly do.

ANY dog can have DA. I've yet to meet a pitbull as DA as a Siberian Husky that used to live in the neighborhood.

It's been drilled into so many of us owning pitbulls, that DA is a breed trait. The fact that the original APBT were bred for dog fighting is probably the source of it all. And it's true.

And, I fight tooth and nail to prove otherwise. (That all pitbulls are DA)

DA is just that, DOG aggression. It's not PAOD, Pitbulls aggression on other dogs. DOG, as in any dog, any breed. Dog aggression is just expected to be in pitbulls, clearly for whence they came from, how and why.

My point is Miakoda is that of course I would love Hades just the same if he was DA. BUT, I see nothing wrong with encouraging people to be proud of a pitbull who is not DA, or working hard to cease the behaviours associated with DA. It doesn't mean that you love your dog any less does it?

I trained Roxy to sit. She wouldn't know that otherwise. So does that mean I don't love her because I've trained her to do something that isn't "instinctive"?

A dog is DA. What is wrong with training and working with it, esp. at a young age to discourage those behaviours? It wouldn't learn on it's own would it?

To me, working with a dog that has DA is not changing the dog. It's training, just as we train dogs to carry things around, lie down and do funny tricks. IT"S TRAINING.

If by training my dogs to behave well, know tricks etc, I'm changing their whole "being" than so be it.

Food aggression is not acceptable. But that's part of who the dog is, in your own terms. It comes with the dog so love it?

NO WAY! You work with them and train them and desensitize them!

Are you changing the dog? NO! Your only making it a BETTER dog. I don't think discouraging DA behaviours is changing your dog for the worse. I don't think in not so specific words that you don't love your dog because you don't want it to be DA.

[elegy]

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.

you cannot socialize dog aggression out of a dog whose genetics say be dog aggressive. you cannot. and the more people who cling to this, the more of these dog-aggro dogs are going to get in trouble. you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you can help the dog come down on the less dog-aggro end of the spectrum that it's genetics proscribe, but you're not going to make it non-aggressive.

and dog-aggression and dominance are not related. i have one very pushy dominant bitchy dog (with dogs, not people) who is dog-aggro and one very soft, non-pushy, non-dominant dog who is dog-aggro.

[Roxy's CD]

Elegy, you own two DA dogs. But you've stated they behave "famously" together when your around.

I'm not sure, but I think that's what Amstaffer meant. With work, and socialization, you can train and condition a DA dog to behave otherwise AT LEAST while in your presence.

And depending on the severity, I do believe you can 100% curb some DA behaviours if worked on at a young age. Of course there are uncountable cases where you cannot, but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Learned behaviours, DA can become a LEARNED behaviour. Not neccessarily an instinctive behaviour. As Doberluv's theory implies, if the dog can get it's way by being DA than why not? If it gets a "punishment" for acting this way, than not showing those behaviours would be in it's best interests.

Stay on top of it, and you can slowly and gradually rid the dog of those aggressive behaviours. Until the DA behaviours cease and the good ones become a learned behaviour.

[elegy]

Elegy, you own two DA dogs. But you've stated they behave "famously" together when your around.

I'm not sure, but I think that's what Amstaffer meant. With work, and socialization, you can train and condition a DA dog to behave otherwise AT LEAST while in your presence.

And depending on the severity, I do believe you can 100% curb some DA behaviours if worked on at a young age. Of course there are uncountable cases where you cannot, but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Learned behaviours, DA can become a LEARNED behaviour. Not neccessarily an instinctive behaviour. As Doberluv's theory implies, if the dog can get it's way by being DA than why not? If it gets a "punishment" for acting this way, than not showing those behaviours would be in it's best interests.

Stay on top of it, and you can slowly and gradually rid the dog of those aggressive behaviours. Until the DA behaviours cease and the good ones become a learned behaviour.

yes, they do get along fantastically most of the time but that is nothing i taught them or trained them to do. i would never have brought mushroom home if it had not looked like they were going to get along well. i supervise and i separate them when i'm not here, i train them, i insist upon being respected, and 99% of the time all is well. but i know if the right set of circumstances hit (mushroom gets guardy and snarfs at luce and i'm not right there to stop it where it starts) that they'd fight and seriously injure if not kill each other.

you can curb dog-aggressive BEHAVIORS at any age. luce is nowhere near the level of dramatics and embarrassment that she was when i got her (she was maybe a year old). she used to carry on to the point of vomiting. now she has her CGC, we go to dog events, we participate in rally matches, and she's generally trustworthy on a leash as long as another female dog doesn't get up in her face. but i'd never ever ever trust her unsupervised with another dog and i'd never ever ever trust her running free somewhere with other dogs that she hasn't been slowly and carefully introduced to.

and fwiw, punishment did nothing to curb her behaviors. teaching her the correct response, teaching her attention when asked, and rewarding calmness and lack of hysterics got us to where we are today.

[dr2little]

yes,,, what happens through generations of socialization,,,, it will lose the dog agression but in a few generations of no use,,,things behavior changes through generations with socializing with ppl,,,

I agree, just like it only takes a few generations of dogs left to their own devices to become not longer domesticated....it's quite amazing really.

[Roxy's CD]

You pulled a good point out elegy, that I hadn't even realized I had typed, and your right. BEHAVIOURS. I will NEVER truly trust Roxy with people, because she IS and has been human aggressive. No matter how much I curb those behaviours, I will always EXPECT them.

Same with DA. You can curb those behaviours, possibly even get rid of them completely, but that doesn't mean the dog is cured of dog on dog aggression and that you will never see those behaviours again.

[SisMorphine]

You pulled a good point out elegy, that I hadn't even realized I had typed, and your right. BEHAVIOURS. I will NEVER truly trust Roxy with people, because she IS and has been human aggressive. No matter how much I curb those behaviours, I will always EXPECT them.

Same with DA. You can curb those behaviours, possibly even get rid of them completely, but that doesn't mean the dog is cured of dog on dog aggression and that you will never see those behaviours again.
Yup and that's why you can "manage" dog aggression but you can't "train it out" as some people seem to think.

[Miakoda]

Yup and that's why you can "manage" dog aggression but you can't "train it out" as some people seem to think.

Correct.

And I've never once stated that I don't believe in working with dogs. Sukari, one of my bitchiest dogs towards other dogs, has her CGC & TT. It took work, but she will leave another dog alone....until it looks at her wrong or God forbid, invades "her" space. But yet she's manageable enough to have passed those tests. I think it's great that people want to work on those dogs with DA to make them more manageable & good members of society. But I'm not gonna love my little boy who does nothing but whine & try to get at other dogs any less b/c he can't get it through his thick skull that the other dog doesn't want any of him. I'm not going to euthanize him b/c of it. I love both dogs equally. The difference is I won't take him into Petsmart where owners let their Yorkiepoos romp around on 20ft retractable leashes. It's not worth it. But he's more than happy to have 1-on-1 time with me & my husband whether it be walking, joggins, training, doing catch work, etc. He doesn't seem any worse for wear not being able to be a part of a dog pack.

[Red Chrome]

I know it can be managed but definetely NOT trained out of them. Red is extremely DA and will not hesitate if confronted, However, through LOTS of proper training, she can do a down stay and anothe rdog can approach her, sniff her etc. She bristles up but does not move because she has been trained.

She has her CGC, TT and 2 legs of a CD. We're working on a BH title in Schutzhund.

I agree with Mia. IF other dog owners were more respnsible about leashing, there wouldn't be near the problems, and the tired saying of "OH, they're friendly." makes me sick.

We as Pit Bull owners have to be 1000x more responsible than those that own other breeds because of the stigma they have. The fact that other breed owners aren't as responsible about leashign at the park because they have a lab or golden, both breeds of which I have been bitten by.

[LinkLinx]

Can someone write a quick summary of this thread for the newcomers who can't read through 60+ pages? LOL

I've only read a few pages. Firstly, I'll say that the dog posted on the first page is gorgeous.

I have Staffordshire Bull Terriers. I don't chain. It's a personal thing. I never have and I never will. I use invisible fencing, and have never had any problems with it, so I see no reason to move to any other means of confinement when what I have is working perfectly for me.

Also, my dogs are DA only with dogs they aren't properly introduced to. So far I've never had any problems with them, but that doesn't mean I won't. Owners of DA breeds/dogs really should know how to handle this trait better. But instead, many people badmouth them for ownining a dog like that, or even keeping it alive.

Many people are afraid of my dogs, who knows why. They think my dogs will pick a fight with theirs, which has never been the case in the past. They've only growled, low almost warning growls it seems. They've never lunged or even barked really, but they definitely don't go up and greet, as if they are completely comfortable with a strange dog in their presence. And really, why should they? I don't except them to accept every single dog they meet..shoot I dislike many people I meet with just a few words from them!

[Gas House]

Well, to say that you began to breed for something different than what the dog was bred for for the last hundred + years and saying that would not change the dog is crazy.

[Amstaffer]

Influence when young, yes, change, no.

If you influence something it is a form of change.....

It sounds like you had a class on dog behavior and I have not. However I have had lots of experience with dogs expecially Rotts and Bullies and my experience is that you can take dogs (if young enough) and change them!

[jess2416]

you might can change their behavior but their temperment will always be there, regardless of what you do to control their behaviors IMO.

[Amstaffer]

you cannot socialize dog aggression out of a dog whose genetics say be dog aggressive. you cannot. and the more people who cling to this, the more of these dog-aggro dogs are going to get in trouble. you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you can help the dog come down on the less dog-aggro end of the spectrum that it's genetics proscribe, but you're not going to make it non-aggressive.

and dog-aggression and dominance are not related. i hav