Some Pit Education

[MomOf7]

FYI
These are OFA's statistics for Hips in Pits. Im suprised no one looked it up before now:D
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER from 2000-2002 there were only 128 dogs OfA'd and 25 percent of them were displastic.
1990-1992 only 34 got thier OFA and 14.7 were displastic which leaves the breed as far as change in HD percentages a Negative 24.9 percent change towards the worse or in other words 24.9 percent worse.
http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html?view=2
They are ranked #27 out of 142 for HD.
http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html?view=1
Did you know this information? You should
How many pits do you own? Are they on OFA?
For those of you who have no idea how bad that is I will put it into perspective.
Labs are notorious for HD. Thier rank is 74 out of 142 for HD
9.4 percent out of 26976 were displastic 2000-2002

To me that causes alot of concern for the pitbull breed
Why arent more pit owners OFA ing thier dogs? Is it a hipe that pits dont have hip problems therefore you dont have to test for it?
Is there some other type of testing you do like Penn Hip?


I also wanted to point out that I have scanned through this thread and found you saying one thing then something a bit different. I will quote it all later and show you what I mean.
Also I dont know if its the way you post or what, but you are very condensending in your posts and the least bit sincere unless someone gives you or pits praise or agrees. Again thats my observation.
Also even though you say that the one SKINNY dog is in top condition I do not agree. Nothing you have said has changed my mind. There are a few that you posted that look good. A little overly muscled for me but thats just my preference. I like a nice build dont get me wrong but thats a bit much for me:)
Im glad you are passionate about your breed. That is a big deal and I respect that.

[Amstaffer]

I do not agree with cropping or docking at all, just as much as many of you disagree with many other different things... but yet, I don't condemn you for that.

If you are talking about Sal's ears....His ears were cropped when I got him and I would NEVER crop a dogs ears! He suffer from it and I really hated seeing him go thru the recovery.

[Amstaffer]

Mainly, I was suggesting that on an international website, we can't assume or insist that everyone shares the same norms. But as others have already said more eloquently, I think that we in the US are too quick to judge the ethics of other peoples by our own standards, when we can't even begin to understand what a social practice means to people from a completely different place, background, language, etc. This isn't to defend animal cruelty. Surely you can understand the distinction. Or is the world really that black and white to you? Must be nice to be so smug.
.

Smug? Why is it arrogance to say that something is wrong. If there is a victim then it is not up for debate. Torture is torture regardless of the IQ or Gray matter the victim has. Political Correctness is out of control in this world where we are now afraid to judge.

[Char_06]

*EDIT*
ahhh ive just read all the posts and i really dont know what to think.

[tommyt]

Tell me if I am wrong. There are some of you that believe that chaining a dog is immoral and cruel regardless if it is given attention and exercise. Am I hearing this right? Please, explain to me the reasons behind this if this is how you feel.

[GAPITS]

Since I have been following this post over the past few days, I would like to say that it seems that some are still not convinced that Lil' Bit could ever look like that naturally and that simply isn't true.

Here is another example of a young non-worked dog that simply has the genetic pre-disposition to stay fit and trim. The pup in this pic was only 9 mths old at the time of the photo and had never done anything more than play with ourselves and our children in the yard and walk on a leash in and out of the show ring, (where she places quite higly because of her structure and build).

There are simply many differences in the breeds that each of us chooses to own and until we educate ourselves on others breed of choice we need to simply sit back listen, ask questions, and not judge what we do not know.



http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/1/9/2/8/S8000182.JPG
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/1/9/2/8/S8000187.jpg

[MomOf7]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie
I am sorry, but I don't believe that muscle can be obtained on any animal just living in the house for 14 months, being fed premium dog food, and genetics. Maybe if you went into detail of "weight pulling", "treadmill running", supplements etc.
But not a house dog.
Are you sure you didn't leave something out?
I made the post, and that is how it was, is, and will be, at least for now, and I don't agree with many of the supplements other than fresh wild salmon oil or kelp, and I don't really considered those supplements, although I'm feeding neither at this time.

And, yes... I'm sure I didn't leave something out, if I did, it would have been edited by now.


???? Could you give us what entails the sport you do? I am not familiar as to what it takes to do that sport.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie
Hmmmm. So you are saying that dog in the picture gets virtually no excercise? and just lives in the house? Not on that chain?
Basically, yes... "she" is actually on the chain maybe once a week on average... she goes out on the chain when it isn't too hot, too cold, too wet, or too dry, and since that doesn't happen very often here, she doesn't go on the chain much. I don't like taking pictures of my dogs in the house, because they are much more photogenic outside.

Although that doesn't have anything to do with the subject or thread at hand, since the "chain" seems to be more of an issue than the dog, I figured I would go ahead and respond to it.
still no answer to the exercise??

I over looked this statement sorry:) I was wrong
the boy is thinner than I would like if he were mine. But again, when I had Pits, they were built more like the average Am Staff.

So the dietary asspect is something that must be closely watched?

*edit*

I might have missed how much and what kind of exercise she gets.
No answer

So how do you balance the exersize with the diet if this is mainly a house dog?
Your answer to blues q
To be basic, since she is a mainly a house dog (basically a pet) at this time, it isn't really about a balance between exercise and diet, but simply about optimal weight. Although, she is extremely active, highly energetic, and unbelievably out-going, she gets little to no purposeful exercise whatsoever... health is usually a combination of exercise and diet, but a naturally active dog doesn't have to be exercised to be healthy.
Now ok I have some athletic dogs. Not one of them are as near as muscled as some of the pics here. They get lots of exercise too. Granted they are not Pits but they do come from lines who have nice builds. So do they. If they werent exercised they would have no build. No dog would. Genetics surely cannot be the only factor in how ripped these dogs are. JMO
The three pits you posted on page 5 at the bottom are more balanced as far as muscle tone to body ratio.

Underweight and conditioned, compared to underweight and starved are completely two different things. In the picture of the male, the same day the picture was taken, he could have easilly ran as fast, or faster than any human can run for 3+ hours and not miss a step if he wanted to. Underweight, by looks, doesn't include performance dogs conditioned to their peak performance level... and as I've said, if the dog was not being worked, he would have been eating 3-4 cups instead of 7-8 (or more) to be at that size.
Eating is a form of exercise? Come on now these dogs have to be exercised to build muscle its a fact. I have a hard time believing those dogs arent on tredmills and pulling huge things behind them daily.

Ok lets talk about the dogs who are pictured here. Everyone of them are pulling like they were conditioned to do so. Nothing wrong with rigorous exercise. My dogs get a good heavy exercise during training from time to time. They have nice muscle tone because of the exercise they get and often get called too thin. I know they are not too thin because I know about what type of dogs I have and what they do to get them where they are. But I will never say the lay in the house all day and get in shape from eating:rolleyes:
Something is fishy here.

[MomOf7]

Since I have been following this post over the past few days, I would like to say that it seems that some are still not convinced that Lil' Bit could ever look like that naturally and that simply isn't true.

Here is another example of a young non-worked dog that simply has the genetic pre-disposition to stay fit and trim. The pup in this pic was only 9 mths old at the time of the photo and had never done anything more than play with ourselves and our children in the yard and walk on a leash in and out of the show ring, (where she places quite higly because of her structure and build).

There are simply many differences in the breeds that each of us chooses to own and until we educate ourselves on others breed of choice we need to simply sit back listen, ask questions, and not judge what we do not know.



http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/1/9/2/8/S8000182.JPG
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/1/9/2/8/S8000187.jpg


Ok now were talking ...The dog gets regular walks!! Thats is a form of exercise besides eating:)
BTW nice looking dog

[Miakoda]

Momof7, are you talking to me?

pitbull breed
First off, there is no such thing. The term "pit bull" is actually a generic term that is used to include several different breeds: American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, & American Bulldog. It is also used to refer to a mix of any of the aforementioned breeds.

If so, I plainly stated that HD was on the rise in "pit bulls" due to unethical breeding by bybs and/or peddlers & because of the blatant outcrosses to other breeds.

Also, I'm a cert. vet tech. I have done x-rays on several of my dogs hips, but instead of having them OFA'd, I had every one of our 8 vets verify their stability. I don't need to pay someone else to do that. Also, if I'm not breeding, why should I give money to someone so they can tell me what I already know? As for other people, it's up to them. And I can pretty much tell you that most of those "APBTs" in the OFA database are from bloodlines that have experienced the most crappiest of breeding practices therefore I'm not surprised. And yes I know how to look at that database.

but you are very condensending in your posts and the least bit sincere unless someone gives you or pits praise or agrees
If you took it that way, then there's nothing I can do. In fact, I am very passionate about this breed & about my dogs & always type with a lot of emotion. However, this is the internet & you cannot hear me....all you can do is read type. Unfortunately, many statements are misconstrued because everyone reads it in a different manner.

[Miakoda]

Something is fishy here.

If you all want to continue to call all of us liars because of your own egos & ignorance, go right ahead. But quit bitching & complaining that we didn't answer the question b/c it was answered a thousand times!!! We are doing our best to patiently answer questions & it seems y'all are trying to bait us into saying we're all drug addicts who fight dogs & guess what, you couldn't be further from the truth.

And yes, genetics plays a HUGE role in the build of a dog. Since you don't own APBTs, I'm not sure how you can be an expert on how they are built & what they are & aren't supposed to look like. To the general public, this is a pit bull:http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/bigmonsterT.jpg

[MomOf7]

I should have been more clear. I was talking to Gamedogs. Sorry I wasnt clear about that.
Also I want to know why you wouldnt submit the xrays to OFA? Or to Penn hip? They are agencies to help breeders make better breeds. Taking your own xrays does not make the information available to other people. When I look at a pedigree I look up each individual dog on OFA if there isnt a OFA under thier name or next to it. How can you better the breed when you dont know what you have?
Also how can the supposed breeder who submitted the OFA xrays be such a bad breeder? I dont understand this?
Please excuse my generalized dipiction of your breed.
AMPBT Right?
Momof7, are you talking to me?


First off, there is no such thing. The term "pit bull" is actually a generic term that is used to include several different breeds: American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, & American Bulldog. It is also used to refer to a mix of any of the aforementioned breeds.

If so, I plainly stated that HD was on the rise in "pit bulls" due to unethical breeding by bybs and/or peddlers & because of the blatant outcrosses to other breeds.

Also, I'm a cert. vet tech. I have done x-rays on several of my dogs hips, but instead of having them OFA'd, I had every one of our 8 vets verify their stability. I don't need to pay someone else to do that. Also, if I'm not breeding, why should I give money to someone so they can tell me what I already know? As for other people, it's up to them. And I can pretty much tell you that most of those "APBTs" in the OFA database are from bloodlines that have experienced the most crappiest of breeding practices therefore I'm not surprised. And yes I know how to look at that database.


If you took it that way, then there's nothing I can do. In fact, I am very passionate about this breed & about my dogs & always type with a lot of emotion. However, this is the internet & you cannot hear me....all you can do is read type. Unfortunately, many statements are misconstrued because everyone reads it in a different manner.

[Miakoda]

Also how can the supposed breeder who submitted the OFA xrays be such a bad breeder? I dont understand this?


I'm not saying that it's those people who are, but moreso the people who have bred that line of dogs before them. I give them respect for having their dogs OFA'd & PennHip, but another growing concern of mine is people thinking that a dog with a "Fair" grade is breeding quality & even those dogs who are borderline. It seems many people go ahead & breed anyways.

IMO, I don't see the need fo people to have their own personal pets OFA'd & PennHip if they are nothing more than pets. It won't change anything.

AMPBT Right?

Close ;) APBT

[Cheetah]

Hmmm... when I hear or refer to the term "pit bull," I am associating it with only one breed: The American Pit Bull Terrier. Pit Bull is just shorter and easier to say and type... just like "corgi" is easier to say and type than Pembroke Welsh Corgi lol... Just a thought... >o.o<

[Miakoda]

Hmmm... when I hear or refer to the term "pit bull," I am associating it with only one breed: The American Pit Bull Terrier. Pit Bull is just shorter and easier to say and type... just like "corgi" is easier to say and type than Pembroke Welsh Corgi lol... Just a thought... >o.o<

Although this used to be correct & ok 30+ years ago, the media has made it impossible to accurately identify an APBT by using the term "pit bull" as it has been thrown around so much & used to describe mutts that don't even have any of the "pit bull" breeds in them.

Relate the term "pit bull" to the term "retriever". There are many different breeds of retrievers, but most people with either assume one is talking about the Golden Retriever or Labrador Retriever when there are many, many other types.

[GAPITS]

Ok now were talking ...The dog gets regular walks!! Thats is a form of exercise besides eating:)
BTW nice looking dog


Thank you very much, we are very proud of her. Just wanted to post another example so that maybe it would be easier for some to understand that genetics does play a huge part in a dogs body type and structure.

[MomOf7]

I'm not saying that it's those people who are, but moreso the people who have bred that line of dogs before them. I give them respect for having their dogs OFA'd & PennHip, but another growing concern of mine is people thinking that a dog with a "Fair" grade is breeding quality & even those dogs who are borderline. It seems many people go ahead & breed anyways.

IMO, I don't see the need fo people to have their own personal pets OFA'd & PennHip if they are nothing more than pets. It won't change anything.


Close ;) APBT
I agree that the average owner doesnt have to submit OFA xrays but if you are breeding isnt it important to know? Isnt it important for others to be able to access this information?

[Miakoda]

Isnt it important for others to be able to access this information?


No necessarily. I don't breed to sell dogs....period. We've had 4 litters in 9 years. My main goal is to improve upon my own dogs & improve upon the breed in some way. I don't sell pups nor do I or ever will I place a pup to someone in the general public. So far, we have kept all but 3 dogs we have bred. Otherwise, how would we know the breedings were successful? In order to know this, you must watch the dog grow & develop & then work the dog (in our case we use them as catch dogs & we also weight pull in the IWPA) to see if we were able to improve the dogs in the area we felt needed improving. I am VERY against back yard breeders & puppy peddlers & this includes all the so called "reputable" breeders that sell all their pups from their litters--this is called "peddling puppies for cash".

[MomOf7]

Ok how do you better your breed? Do you not buy dogs from other reputable breeders? I dont understand ?? Im a little confused?

[GAPITS]

OFA certification would be of great importance if you were selling to the general public and were not aware of the past generations of the bloodline you have chosen.

Where true APBT owners are different is that -
1. We (speaking for myself and others that I choose to associate with) don't sell to the general public, most of us tend to keep the majority of pups on our own yards (this also answers a previosuly asked question about why most of us have multiple dogs). 2. Generally we have used and maintained specific bloodlines for several generations. 3. We fortunately have a great deal of access to most of the information in our dogs past. 4. Almost every medical or genetic trait that would have or will cause a major issue with our breed was removed from the breeding program (due to the pitmen only keeping and breeding the healthiest of the working stock they had).

As bad as some think what those men did was, they did care for and keep only the best of health in their programs. Therefore enabling this particular breed to be about 98% genetic defect free. You will find if you do a bit more reserach that the majority of the dogs used for the OFA list of percentages were not true ABPT, but the more modern Staff's or crosses used by the Bully type breeders.

[Miakoda]

Ok how do you better your breed? Do you not buy dogs from other reputable breeders? I dont understand ?? Im a little confused?

No problem. I have been studying the breed for almost 18-19 years & have been hands-on & depth for 10 yrs. I know the strengths & weaknesses of the bloodlines by dogs are down from & I know the strengths & weaknesses of my own dogs. Therefore, in doing a breeding (which usually requires a year or more of painstaking thought) I am doing my best to improve upon the strengths & decrease the weaker aspects. All-in-all, the dogs must be well rounded & must conform to the standard in every way. I don't sacrifice one aspect (like temperament) just for looks like many of your breed for size & color people do. Also, this is a working breed therefore those breeders that are breeding for the showring only are also held repsonsible for the drop in quality dogs out there--these aren't supposed to be fancy dogs than do nothing more than parade around a ring.

Also, I have bought a handful of dogs in the past. But more often than not, I've been given a dog after earning that person's trust & showing them that I am more concerned about the breed & the individual dogs over anything else.

[2nd2none]

I also wanted to point out that I have scanned through this thread and found you saying one thing then something a bit different. I will quote it all later and show you what I mean.
.



I am curious here, as to what you are specifically referring to?

Also to both reiterate and reemphasize, the "pit bull" is a generic "term" which emcompasses several different breeds, including, (but by todays' standards is not limited to) the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, commonly called "Am Staff", or AST, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. These are "primarily" the three "main" groups/breeds that people oftentimes equate the "pit bull" as being.

American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - recognized by the ADBA and UKC
American Staffordshire Terrier (AST) - recognized by the AKC
Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT) - recognized by the AKC and UKC

However, due to the rampart widespread of Breed Specific Legislation today, up to 25 "other" breeds have also been confused with or mistaken as being a "pit bull". Being an avid opposer of BSL, this is far too common an errror, imo, made out of haste, and by not obtaining all the facts in order to allow proponents to quickly help "erracicate" the pit bull, rather than by holding their irresponsible owners accountable.

Try your luck:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

I am also glad this thread has taken a more civil turn. I HOPE it continues this way.:) It's WAAAAAY more enjoyable minus the innuendos and insults.:cool:

[Renee750il]

No problem. I have been studying the breed for almost 18-19 years & have been hands-on & depth for 10 yrs. I know the strengths & weaknesses of the bloodlines by dogs are down from & I know the strengths & weaknesses of my own dogs. Therefore, in doing a breeding (which usually requires a year or more of painstaking thought) I am doing my best to improve upon the strengths & decrease the weaker aspects. All-in-all, the dogs must be well rounded & must conform to the standard in every way. I don't sacrifice one aspect (like temperament) just for looks like many of your breed for size & color people do. Also, this is a working breed therefore those breeders that are breeding for the showring only are also held repsonsible for the drop in quality dogs out there--these aren't supposed to be fancy dogs than do nothing more than parade around a ring.

Also, I have bought a handful of dogs in the past. But more often than not, I've been given a dog after earning that person's trust & showing them that I am more concerned about the breed & the individual dogs over anything else.

If I'm understanding you and several of the others correctly, you are more closely akin to the old fashioned farmers who bred their own working farm dogs from one generation to the next, keeping their own lines clean, making sure they had competent, healthy dogs that kept the work ethic, temperament and vigor they required. :)

[Miakoda]

If I'm understanding you and several of the others correctly, you are more closely akin to the old fashioned farmers who bred their own working farm dogs from one generation to the next, keeping their own lines clean, making sure they had competent, healthy dogs that kept the work ethic, temperament and vigor they required. :)

That's correct. Great way of putting it!:)

[jess2416]

Try your luck:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

First try :) but I have seen it before..:)

The very very first time I tried it, it took me six tries before I got it right...

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I really did not see a problem with the physical condition of any of these dogs. The one was lacking a bit in fat but what is wrong with that. A dog with that much muscle is a healthy dog IMHO. If there was a problem with these dogs they would also be lacking muscle. It definately does not take much for a well cared for APBT to gain muscle. Good pictures of Magnus makes him look amazing too, and he goes for daily walks and runs in the back field and plays tug o war in the backyard everyday, and is just a happy, energetic house dog with a too much fat lol.

[MissBelle]

Alright, i have read over atleast 15 pages lol. I thought i would also add some photos in. The dogs that i am going to show are fed good food, and have good genes. NONE of these dogs are "conditioned". The red dog is my house dog, and the black dog lives in a kennel and a chain set up (he is moved back and forth).

Here is 2 pictures of one of my males, this is my house dog. Looks good right?
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/PHOTOSMAR06018.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/DogShow007.jpg

[jess2416]

pics arent showing up :)

[MissBelle]

Well, here is some other photos of him that im sure people would say "he's to thin", well he is at the exact same weight in both photos (44 pounds). He is not conditioned what so ever. Like lil'bit he is well bred, and is a very active little guy, therefore, i dont need to exercise him, he keeps himself plenty busy.
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/Jetty001.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/DogShow002.jpg

[MissBelle]

Here is a few pics of the black male. This dog is not conditined either. Like was stated, GENETICS have a huge roll in how your dog looks. This male walks around like this at 50 pounds. No matter how much i weight pulled him or conditioned him, i couldnt get him to 60 pounds of muscle if his body wasnt genetically designed to do so.
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/ker.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/TireDay001.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/TireDay008.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/TireDay003.jpg

[MissBelle]

http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/TireDay011.jpg
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/2/5/2/5/TireDay022.jpg

I posted so many photos to illustrate, how different the body can look in different stances, and different lights. All of those photos were taken the same day, but notice how different he looks in each photo?

Notice he has a nice shiney coat, and nice muscle tone, all of which a starving dog has none of. Here is a photo of a starving dog so you can see the difference-
http://www2.bc.edu/~sallet/skinny_dog.JPG

Notice no muscle tone, a dull coat, and all bones are showing? THAT is a skinny/starving dog.

[MissBelle]

ok.... why the crap didnt the other photos show? lol

[Renee750il]

That's correct. Great way of putting it!:)



It's very like what I want to see if I'm looking for a Fila. Or a German Shepherd for that matter. I don't want "show" lines or European lines. I want a working dog - and for that you go back to farm lines! :)

[jess2416]

Hmmmm....are you posting them from photobucket ???

[MissBelle]

Hmmmm....are you posting them from photobucket ???


No, from Gamedogs site.

[jess2416]

No, from Gamedogs site.

I dont know why they arent :confused: maybe you could upload them from www.tinypic.com and post them (you dont have to make an account) :)

[Miakoda]

I see all the pics......

[RD]

I'm not seeing them. :confused:

I see the one of the starving dog, that's it. (Poor thing, btw. I definitely see what you mean)

[jess2416]

I see all the pics......

Only one I see is the poor starving dog (how awful :()

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yeah, the one of the starving dog is all I am seeing too.

[2nd2none]

[QUOTE=RD;492716]I'm not seeing them. :confused:

QUOTE]


nor, I.:confused: ...

[planet molosser]

Just wanted to say thank you all for this thread I learned more and it does help to have such experts posting information and debates can lead to allot of acquired knowledge. Kudos to Chaz for great info

[2nd2none]

scratch that...(link won't work)...

maybe this:
http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=a8ab27663e65e13f71845&skin_id=0&utm_s

anyhow, was gunna say, this was pretty :cool:

:)

[Texasbulldogs]

In regards to the two dogs (Lil Bit and Machobuck) neither dog is at their optimal weight in said pictures nor are they unhealthy, exact opposite. For the laymen think of their shape as that of a track athlete or wide receiver in football…in great shape, low body fat, eating proper nutrition, and well hydrated. Don’t attempt to compare them to a bodybuilder that severely dehydrates themselves to obtain the “ripped” look. The later almost passes out simply from flexing because of the extreme dehydration state. The prior can perform all day on a hot track field in the summer months or play every down of 4 quarters in a football game. Reason being they are “ripped” naturally from the great shape they’re in, proper nutrition, genetics, and rest-not by dehydrating themselves.

Now in regards to Lil Bit of course the dog was moderately exercised. One has to remember when talking about the APBT most enthusiast never share their conditioning routines with others. They keep it secretive and believe it gives them an edge over their competition be it in conformation, weight pulling, etc. But common sense says the dog was exercised. As someone previously mentioned before it ultimately boils down to genetics and nutrition combined with exercise. Now for those that don’t believe genetics have anything to do with it. Compare the two dogs and notice despite being a pup and not in as great of shape, Lil Bit appears to be more defined and muscular than Machobuck to the novice. But it isn’t fair to compare two different dogs on different yards, owned by different people…too many variables. So compare Lil Bit to other dogs owned by Marty and you’ll notice none of them have the large hindquarters or is in the shape Lil Bit is. Why is that? Simple genetics and exercise! For those unfamiliar with the breed Lil Bit is mainly a Redboy/Jocko breed dog and Marty’s other dogs are mainly Jeep breed (going by memory so may be inaccurate). In knowing the breed and various bloodlines you’d know the Redboy/Jocko dogs are known for having naturally large hindquarters unlike the various other bloodlines hence the reason Rock stated other littermates are similar in looks and build. See genetics do play a major role in a dog’s muscular appearance.

On the nutrition part notice how Marty stated Lil Bit was feed Canidae when the picture was taken? Now that he doesn’t feed that quality type of kibble and went to the lesser quality Timberwolf and probably less exercise the dog doesn’t look the same or as “ripped”. Now before anyone gets on their high horse and attempts to say Timberwolf is a better quality kibble-do some research! Answer the question of why if so great they only have one formula recommended for long-term/maintenance feeding-yet people fail to mention it or even know that? Second stop letting web-sites take advantage of your lack of knowledge by tweaking numbers and actually look at lab reports. If after that limited research you’re still unsure ask yourself is oats versus rice worth a $1.62 per pound more-when comparing Canidae to what Timberwolf states as their long-term kibble? I think not and we haven’t even touched on the poorer digestibility! Trouble is most are clueless when it comes to nutrition and go by anything wrote on a web-site. It’s sad, yet hilarious at the same time. Reminds me of earlier this year a web-site rating dog food, popped up and was being circulated on every dog board. Problem with it was the proprietor of said site only owned toy breeds and one 40 lbs mixed mutt, their entire life. Add to that said person never had a dog live over the age of 7. Sounds like a person that should be giving advice on canine nutrition? Yet all the eager, gullible, and clueless dog owners gladly accepted it and not only that passed along such ridiculous information without an ounce of research. Anyways nutrition plays a vital role in achieving a ripped look in a dog. It can aid in a great appearance, add a bloated look to a dog, and a vast amount of other possibilities.

As for the chain issue: If you want actual information comparing the two containment methods (chaining versus kenneling)based on actual studies done, look at the study done in 2001 by the Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. It basically stated there was no difference in temperament, aggression, or mental stability between the two containment methods. From what I recall the only things noted that differed was common sense stuff i.e. kenneled dogs tend to pace back and forth more and stand on their hind legs more than chained dogs and chained dogs went in circles more than kenneled dogs. From my experience a chained dog on a proper set-up is mentally and physically in better shape. The typical chain set-up is 8 feet in length which is basically equivalent to a 16’ X 16’ kennel…how many kennels have you seen that size? Many chained dogs are active yet kennels dogs tend to simply lay around almost depressed. A chained dog with a owner that is knowledgeable and realizes the importance of mental stimuli can and does rotate their dogs to different chain set-ups monthly or quarterly to give the dogs new views, sights, smells, etc same can’t be said for a kenneled dog as they are usually in one area not spread across the yard like a chain set-up. Another benefit I find in chaining a dog is that it has you interacting with your dogs more. By that I mean you are forced to get out there rake the spot, keep it clean so that the chain can’t become tangled, etc. Whereas kennels for the most part are set up and designed so that you can spray it out with a water hose, never once having to go inside them or interact with said dog.

On the stance: That is typically another trait of various bloodlines. As far as them pulling on their leads it is usually the result of most APBT’s aren’t trained nor have the basics of obedience on them. Usually the owners use the “dog aggression” excuse to justify their lack of obedience on their dogs and it’s pulling and or lunging at the end of its lead. Whereas in other breeds a dog that heels correctly on a loose lead is bragged about. In the APBT community many think the dog dragging them where ever is “cool” and acceptable.

OFA: Is that nothing more than a useless test that does nothing but waste time and money all the while offering peddlers…excuse me, breeders of a breed another sales ploy they can use to as a marketing gimmick? After all before dogs were kept solely as pets and breed away from working standards were there problems with hip dysplasia? Don’t think so! Has decades of testing and screening removed it from any breed of canine? Again, NO! Amazing how numerous studies have shown it not to be necessarily a genetic problem as once thought but in fact more of improper nutrition. That is brought on by extremely fast growth rates, over feeding, lack of exercise, etc. Could that be the reason over the last 5 years dog food manufacturers have changed their nutrient profiles on their puppy formulas?

Dog fighting: The APBT is one of a few breeds people despise what it was breed to do and then those same individuals turn around and purchase one anyways. Makes as much sense as a rabbit breeder, getting a Beagle and then complaining it’s chasing their rabbits constantly or an old lady wanting a clam lap dog and purchasing a Patterdale Terrier. Those that know me know I contemn conformations shows and weight pulling in regards to the APBT. But instead of worrying about what others do, find entertaining, jubilant, or whatever I do something very unorthodox these days…I don’t go to them, don’t provide those events with my money, etc! I don’t attempt to change the laws about it simply because I dislike it, find it appalling, and know the harm it causes every breed of canine! It doesn’t matter which side of the fence you stand on in regards to dog fighting. The true question is; how can/could something supposedly so “inhumane” create a breed know for its stability, brains, willingness to please, endurance, calmness, etc. On the other hand we have factual information as to the harmful effects of such “humane” things such as conformations shows, weight pulling competitions, fly ball, agility, pet ownership, HSUS, PETA, etc has done to the canine world. In my opinion dog fighting and its legality has nothing to do with cruelty, simply individuals more worried about what others are doing instead of worrying about their own lives and animals that are typically in disarray! After all much easier to attempt to “fix” other peoples problems than to admit and correct our own. God for bid people started worrying about their own issues instead of other peoples or what they do with their dogs.

Ironic how we live in a politically correct society these days, have been told by doctors and the enlightened for about two decades now on how we should raise and treat our children and pets. How we shouldn’t raise our voice at them ever or lay a hand on them, etc and to an extreme of even in our schools now they hand out awards to every kid, win, lose, or draw…don’t want them to think they didn’t do well! Amazing how those same kids are now 20-30 and still living with mom and/or dad with no desire to get out, start their own lives, and journey into adulthood. Both pets and children are more out of control than ever, more violent in their offenses, despite being raised in that correct, nurturing household. Time for us as a society to wake up and smell the coffee! Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing with their dogs, children, spouse, or family member’s and place our priorities back within our own house! Once that is perfect and in tip top shape then by all means worry about others, until then worry about yourself and your own animals.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Woah! I am a little confused at that whole post.

I would like to say I find nothing wrong with flyball, conformation, weight pulling etc.

I would also like to say that the people here take care of what is in their home and everything else comes second. Educating and discussing our beliefs (and many of our beliefs differ here) comes second.

I do worry what other people do with their dogs, after I take care of mine.

I do however agree with you that some people who own pits use the dog aggression excuse. Like I said before...it may have been bred into them but it can be trained out!

[Gamedogs]

On the nutrition part notice how Marty stated Lil Bit was feed Canidae when the picture was taken? Now that he doesn’t feed that quality type of kibble and went to the lesser quality Timberwolf and probably less exercise the dog doesn’t look the same or as “ripped”. Actually, when the picture in question was taken, she had been on Wild and Natural for about 3 months, there are only 2 out of 5 pictures posted of her on this site when she was on Canidae. Although she did well on Canidae, 4 out of 8 didn't do anywhere near as well, and she is actually doing MUCH better on the Timberwolf than with Canidae. You may disagree, and you have that right, but they are all doing MUCH better than they did on Canidae or anything else... I'm sure every dog you feed doesn't get fed Canidae because each dog is different, and if all of them do, then you must have it being made especially for you, because I had a completely different experience with it. I'm not about to argue with you about canine nutrition, because I can't, but in comparision of Canidae and Timberwolf, every single dog I have does better on Timberwolf than Canidae (actually, they looked and felt a lot better on Ole Roy and Diamond than when they were being fed Canidae).

As for the rest of that post, very good post, and nice to see you again. :)

[Amstaffer]

Tell me if I am wrong. There are some of you that believe that chaining a dog is immoral and cruel regardless if it is given attention and exercise. Am I hearing this right? Please, explain to me the reasons behind this if this is how you feel.

Yes IMHO it think chaining a dog (especially a Bully Breed) outside for any longer than a few minutes is immoral, dangerous, irresponsible and cruel.

Why?

Immoral....because that dog (especially Bullys) love and demand human interaction and to deny them that is a form a mental torture.

Dangerous...People steal chained dogs all the time
Dangerous...Frustrated dogs who watch the world go by often become aggressive and develop mental health issues

Irresponsible...When someone buys a dog the make a social contract with that dog which requires much more from the owner than food and water.

Cruel...Neglect is more cruel than just shooting them in the head.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

(actually, they looked and felt a lot better on Ole Roy and Diamond than when they were being fed Canidae).

I find that extremely hard to believe, but that is just my opinion.

[Amstaffer]

Ole Roy is terrible dog "food". I can't believe any on this board would feed that :(

[J's crew]

Yes IMHO it think chaining a dog (especially a Bully Breed) outside for any longer than a few minutes is immoral, dangerous, irresponsible and cruel.

Why?

Immoral....because that dog (especially Bullys) love and demand human interaction and to deny them that is a form a mental torture.

Dangerous...People steal chained dogs all the time
Dangerous...Frustrated dogs who watch the world go by often become aggressive and develop mental health issues

Irresponsible...When someone buys a dog the make a social contract with that dog which requires much more from the owner than food and water.

Cruel...Neglect is more cruel than just shooting them in the head.



I agree. There is NO WAY in this world that anyone would be able to convince me otherwise. It is also dangerous because it leaves your dog open to punk kids, other animals, etc. with no escape.

I own Rottweilers. They are known to often be same sex aggressive. I have had 2-5 adults at the same time over the years, with severe aggression issues between 2 of the females and 2 of the males. I have been able to keep them seperated though in the same home with no problems. That way they can always be with one of us living in the home like they need to be. It takes alot of work. MUCH harder than throwing them on a chain. If you cannot properly care for them (there is nothing proper about life on a chain) then you should stick to one.

[silverpawz]

The true question is; how can/could something supposedly so “inhumane” create a breed know for its stability, brains, willingness to please, endurance, calmness, etc. On the other hand we have factual information as to the harmful effects of such “humane” things such as conformations shows, weight pulling competitions, fly ball, agility, pet ownership, HSUS, PETA, etc has done to the canine world. In my opinion dog fighting and its legality has nothing to do with cruelty,

Are you kidding? So you prefer dog fighting to conformation shows, agility and other legitimate dog sports?

You don't find anything cruel about tossing two aggressive dogs together and watching them mangle one another?

Please, do tell, what harmful effects has flyball, agility and other dog sports caused? Enlighten us. Because last I herd dogs wern't being ripped apart by eachother on the agility field...

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Silverpaws, I was wondering the same thing about the cruelty of flyball, agility, conformation, weight pulling etc. This person that stated this should ellaborate and enlighten us as to why he/she thinks those things are so horrible.

I cannot believe that Ol'Roy did better for a dog than a high quality food such as Canidae. Not only that but I don't understand why someone wanting the best for their dogs would feed that kind of dog food.

[Renee750il]

Let's keep it civil, all. This has been going very well . . . and there's a great deal of information being passed back and forth.

Don't make me get out my breaking stick ;)

[jess2416]

Let's keep it civil, all. This has been going very well . . . and there's a great deal of information being passed back and forth.

Don't make me get out my breaking stick ;)

Whooo hooo a whooping stick :D

Sorry :p couldnt help myself :lol-sign:

[silverpawz]

Let's keep it civil, all.

I thought I was being civil. A little snark, sure, but not uncivil. I apologize if I was out of line...

[Gamedogs]

Let's keep it civil, all.That is both impossible and unrealistical, they have already proven that, but at least you're hoping. G'day

[savethebulliedbreeds]

No to be rude but I think most of us have been more than civil.

[elegy]

Dog fighting: The APBT is one of a few breeds people despise what it was breed to do and then those same individuals turn around and purchase one anyways.

well, i didn't purchase my bulldogs, but i chose them not because they're a fighting breed, but rather because they're athletic, intelligent dogs with a fun-loving and exuberant attitude, and friendly with everybody and anybody. i respect the history of this breed because it created this breed that i love, but in no way do i support fighting in any way, shape, or form. it has nothing to do with politics. dog fighting is a cruel waste of dogs. i would never purchase a dog from someone who fights them, no matter how fantastic the dogs were supposed to be. i will not support fighters, period. there are better ways to prove a dog as an athelete and as a worker.

[Renee750il]

Yes, most of the posts have been . . . I just want this to stay on track. We're getting a look into a different world and a different point of view than most of us ever see.

Ever notice how a lot of us have some of the same temperaments/characteristics as our dogs, lol?

[Renee750il]

The APBT is one of a few breeds people despise what it was breed to do and then those same individuals turn around and purchase one anyways.

Filas were, historically, prized for hunting down and retrieving runaway slaves among their other abilities. Does that mean one shouldn't own a Fila unless one has slaves to track? ;)

[Miakoda]

Yes IMHO it think chaining a dog (especially a Bully Breed) outside for any longer than a few minutes is immoral, dangerous, irresponsible and cruel.

Why?

Immoral....because that dog (especially Bullys) love and demand human interaction and to deny them that is a form a mental torture.

Dangerous...People steal chained dogs all the time
Dangerous...Frustrated dogs who watch the world go by often become aggressive and develop mental health issues

Irresponsible...When someone buys a dog the make a social contract with that dog which requires much more from the owner than food and water.

Cruel...Neglect is more cruel than just shooting them in the head.

Again, I'm tired of the assumptions. You assume that because we chose chains as a form of confinement over kennels, that we never pet our dogs, interact with them, walk them, or by God even feed/water them on a daily basis. You have NO idea what we do with our dogs because you don't live with us. You think that what you see on t.v. is how we are. Well, remember the old saying about if you assume something?

And since you seem to know it all, then I'm sure you already know that my dogs are on chains during the day & in kennels inside at night. They get walked every day, they get rotated in the house for inside time every day, they get other forms of exercise every day......but hey, you already know this. PETA & the HSUS told you so.

[Miakoda]

Here Amstaffer, take note of the abuse I put my animals through:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/PIC00003.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/oldrexpic.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/DSC00670.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/underattackcopy.jpg

[Miakoda]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/Sukaripool.jpg(1 of my 2 rescues--is deaf & of course, horribly abused by myslef)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/Shea1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/Annabelle1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/Miakoda15/akecheta.jpg


I'm sure you would now like to turm me over to the SPCA. Here's your "proof".

[Gamedogs]

OMG Miakoda, you should be ashamed of your self, look at those dogs! How irresponsible, neglectful, and immoral of you letting your dogs play with chew toys, be in a swimming pool, and lay in a chair and on the couch like that... don't you know that he could swallow that toy, she could drown in the pool, and the other two could break their neck or their back by letting them lay like that? I've never been so disgusted in my life! Not to mention a couple of them look like they have been starved and the first and last one looks to be juiced, there's no way she got those budging hind legs without being given steroids! I should go report you right now! (From the psychotic and deranged mind of an arrogant, ignorant, idiot)

[Renee750il]

Great pics, Miakoda :) Thanks for posting those.

[jess2416]

You have some beautiful dogs Miakoda, my fav was the one in the kiddie pool :)

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Amstaffer was not saying that you abuse your dogs Miakoda. What Amstaffer said was in response to tommyt asking why it was not ok to chain dogs all the time. Don't take things so personally. :D

Gamedogs, I hope that is not what you think we are being like here.

PS Miakoda, your dogs are beautiful.

Gamedogs I wanted to tell you that the first picture in your video looks very much like my Magnus...What a beautiful dog.

[Zoom]

I'm not understanding the condescending tone towards the HSUS...PETA I can understand, but the Humane Society?

You (as a group) may be able to give your dogs a great life while chaining them for however long you do and may not fight them or starve them or leave them chained so they can bait and amp each other up, but you should be so far beyond aware of the fact that quite a few people can't and do. My area just had a horrific string of pit attacks (this summer saw over 20+ in a three month period), granted these were probably those mongrel pits, but to the lay person, a pit is a Pit is an APBT is a pit, but anyway nearly all of those attacks were from dogs who were kept chained in a back yard and in a very skinny condition...which is very similar to your dogs. AGAIN, to repeat, reiterate and reassure, I'm not saying that you abuse your dogs (except for feeding them Ol' Roy ;) ) in any way, but the images are quite similar.

So forgive us for our concern and constant questioning, but we do all have a common enemy in BSL, we just seem to have different avenues of what we consider "responsible ownership that does not lead to BSL".

[Cheetah]

From what I've read, the HSUS is different from local humane societies.

And for the record, I despise PETA.

[LittleBits#1Fan]

I think more of the people posting to this need to get some education before making such ignorant remarks. As the name says LittleBits#1Fan. This dog is not starved or on steroids. She is in the house most of the time. So in the future get the facts straight before posting junk that is hurtful to others.

[Miakoda]

I'm not understanding the condescending tone towards the HSUS...PETA I can understand, but the Humane Society?

You (as a group) may be able to give your dogs a great life while chaining them for however long you do and may not fight them or starve them or leave them chained so they can bait and amp each other up, but you should be so far beyond aware of the fact that quite a few people can't and do. My area just had a horrific string of pit attacks (this summer saw over 20+ in a three month period), granted these were probably those mongrel pits, but to the lay person, a pit is a Pit is an APBT is a pit, but anyway nearly all of those attacks were from dogs who were kept chained in a back yard and in a very skinny condition...which is very similar to your dogs. AGAIN, to repeat, reiterate and reassure, I'm not saying that you abuse your dogs (except for feeding them Ol' Roy ;) ) in any way, but the images are quite similar.

So forgive us for our concern and constant questioning, but we do all have a common enemy in BSL, we just seem to have different avenues of what we consider "responsible ownership that does not lead to BSL".

Wow. First off, this comment:a pit is a Pit is an APBT is a pit is so far from the truth I can't even fathom why you would say that. That's like saying a retriever is a retriever is a retriever whether it be a Golden, Labroado, Chesapeake, Nova Scotia Duck Trolling, Flat Coated, Curly Coated, etc (you get the hint). Or that all shepherds are one & the same since we all know that GSD's, Anatolians, Australian Shepherds are exactly alike. That's like me saying that all act alike & look alike & I'm educated enough not to make generalizations like that. And I don't see how my APBTs look anything like American Bulldogs, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Bull Terriers, or AmStaffs & I take offense at your calling them all the same.

And again (& for the last time), there is a HUGE difference b/n a well conditioned dog & an emaciated one. However, I don't think you care to know the distinction. And as for these "pit" attacks (which btw, a pit is a hole in the groun), if they were on chains, how did so many people get attacked by them? And did you see that white dog in the pool that I posted? That dog was found extremely neglected, malnourished, & had hooks, rounds, coccidia & parvo to boot & had never had any type of socialiation for the first several months of her life, but guess what? She's never shown any ill effects from it. A dog of stable temperament is hard to break down & putting it on a chain isn't going to do it.

And also for the last time, nowhere did we say we chain our dogs up & throw them food from a distance once a week. Y'all are assuming the worst & I've figured out it's because y'all want to & y'all want the pit bull breeds to go away. Well guess what? Over my dead body!

As for the HSUS, the "pit bull" breeds wouldn't be in such a mess if they HSUS didn't begin to use them for media propoganda to gain funding back in the late 70's. THEY are the ones who made up the term "bait dog" & who gave primarily made up but very detailed instructions on how to "train" a dog to fight by throwing kittens at them, feeding them gunpowder, & all the other crap that was never done before they decided to tell all the streetthugs that this is how you do it. And I was horrified by their actions & behaviors after Hurricane Katrina where I worked at the Lamar Dixon center (close to my house) for 2 weeks. They came in, just took all the pit bulls they could get their hands on, & it seems they never bothered putting their pics up for any owners to reclaim, but rather euthanized them since it seems every last one of them had "aggressive tendencies." In fact, the state of Louisiana is has actually sued the HSUS for their shady actions & wrongdoings as they also used the whole HK thing to take in money for themselves yet they never spent a penny actually where they promised the funds would go. Do your research.

And another HSUS story: A little over a year ago, 2 firefighters in Shreveport had their homes raided & ALL their APBTs killed on the spot! After they were killed, they were then bagged where they lay with numbers spray painted on the bags. And all this was done based on "evidence" the HSUS said they had obtained on the guys. Well, as it turns out after going to trial, the HSUS & LASPCA actually had NO evidence on the guys other than that they had over 20 dogs combined, their dogs wore 2 inch thick collars, & they had a couple of break sticks. The men were then acquitted of all charges & the HSUS & LASPCA were given a slap on the wrist. But how do you bring back your dogs? How do you make your children try to understand why their friends were killed in front of their eyes based on lies created to make an organization look good & gain 15 minutes of fame?

[Miakoda]

From what I've read, the HSUS is different from local humane societies.

And for the record, I despise PETA.


The HSUS is an overhead organization that takes in funds & pays their employees nice hefty salaries while doing nothing to help animals. Do some research on all the lawsuits they are involved in & all the investigations into their funding they are undergoing. They are riding the name to fill their own pockets.

However, this is all off topic & I apologize from straying away from the topic at hand.

I will continue to answer any questions people have, but I will not stay around to be called a liar & abuser. It's not worth my time whatsoever. I love to educate & I would hate for those interested to not get to obtain answers all for the sake of some arrogant "do gooders" who are convinced everyone who owns a "pit bull" is a gambling, drug addicted scumbag.

And btw, we also have a Rottweiler, Dogo Argentino, Shar Pei/Cane Corso mutt, & Olde English Bulldogge & they are all on chains as well when outside.

Have a nice night.

[Zoom]

To the LAY PERSON, "a pit, etc." Not to me, not to most people on this board. I know it's so far off and my newspaper is getting tired of me writing in about how idiotic BSL is when there are so many different types of dogs that can be mistake for pit bulls, and that "pit bulls" is a misnomer itself, and APBT's are really great dogs, etc, etc, etc.

The dogs got loose when either the collar or the weak link in the chain finally snapped under repeated lungings. The first thing out of my mouth after each newscast was "what did those people do to antagonize the dogs after they were loose?" Very few dogs I know will just randomly go up and kill someone they saw from down the street.

Please go back and read my post just a little bit closer. We really are on the same side, I promise.

[blue]

I think more of the people posting to this need to get some education before making such ignorant remarks. As the name says LittleBits#1Fan. This dog is not starved or on steroids. She is in the house most of the time. So in the future get the facts straight before posting junk that is hurtful to others.

I think the majority of folks posting now understand that.

[Miakoda]

To the LAY PERSON, "a pit, etc." Not to me, not to most people on this board. I know it's so far off and my newspaper is getting tired of me writing in about how idiotic BSL is when there are so many different types of dogs that can be mistake for pit bulls, and that "pit bulls" is a misnomer itself, and APBT's are really great dogs, etc, etc, etc.

The dogs got loose when either the collar or the weak link in the chain finally snapped under repeated lungings. The first thing out of my mouth after each newscast was "what did those people do to antagonize the dogs after they were loose?" Very few dogs I know will just randomly go up and kill someone they saw from down the street.

Please go back and read my post just a little bit closer. We really are on the same side, I promise.


Then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I obviously misread it. And thanks for taking the time to write to the media about BSL & how flawed it is. We all appreciate it.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Wow. First off, this comment: is so far from the truth I can't even fathom why you would say that. That's like saying a retriever is a retriever is a retriever whether it be a Golden, Labroado, Chesapeake, Nova Scotia Duck Trolling, Flat Coated, Curly Coated, etc (you get the hint). Or that all shepherds are one & the same since we all know that GSD's, Anatolians, Australian Shepherds are exactly alike. That's like me saying that all act alike & look alike & I'm educated enough not to make generalizations like that. And I don't see how my APBTs look anything like American Bulldogs, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Bull Terriers, or AmStaffs & I take offense at your calling them all the same.

Zoom, I am sure was refering to the way the general public thinks.

And also for the last time, nowhere did we say we chain our dogs up & throw them food from a distance once a week. Y'all are assuming the worst & I've figured out it's because y'all want to & y'all want the pit bull breeds to go away. Well guess what? Over my dead body!

I don't think anyone here said that you do that.

Not only that but none of us here was pit bull breeds to go away....read my screenname...check out my website http://savethebulliedbreeds.tripod.com . Do I sound like someone who would want to get rid of pit bull breeds? No, I even OWN one. Nobody here thinks that way.

[Zoom]

Hey, I appreciate it too. My next dog is probably going to be a Rottweiler, I don't have to say much more and some twit out in Colorado has tried to put Aussies on a BSL list. :rolleyes:

You allow one breed and it snowballs until we're all walking around with Robo-dog on the end of an extension cord.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I love to educate & I would hate for those interested to not get to obtain answers all for the sake of some arrogant "do gooders" who are convinced everyone who owns a "pit bull" is a gambling, drug addicted scumbag.

Again, I am not sure where you are getting this but trust me.....NO ONE HERE THINKS LIKE THAT!:)

[Zoom]

Besides breed-specific boards, we're probably one of the top Pitty champions on the net...I can't tell you how many times we had people register just to make threads about how all pits are evil and ticking time bombs. Those posters pretty much got eaten alive by the rest of the board showing them how wrong they were.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Besides breed-specific boards, we're probably one of the top Pitty champions on the net...I can't tell you how many times we had people register just to make threads about how all pits are evil and ticking time bombs. Those posters pretty much got eaten alive by the rest of the board showing them how wrong they were.

Yup, exactly:D Thats why I love everyone here sooooo much :p

[LittleBits#1Fan]

Julie,
For your information she does live in the house and not on "that chain". She once in a while gets to go outside with the other dogs. She is the baby. She gets no more exercise than the others if she even gets as much as the others. It might be best if you kept your thoughts to yourself because the are made without any knowledge of Lil Bit. Since you don't know her or her owner you shouldn't make comments that insinuate that someone is a liar.

[jess2416]

Julie,
For your information she does live in the house and not on "that chain". She once in a while gets to go outside with the other dogs. She is the baby. She gets no more exercise than the others if she even gets as much as the others. It might be best if you kept your thoughts to yourself because the are made without any knowledge of Lil Bit. Since you don't know her or her owner you shouldn't make comments that insinuate that someone is a liar.

I think that has already been discussed....

[blue]

If it werent for Chaz I probably would not have taken Verde in with her Pit looks, actually thats not true she is a smart sweet girl and Im not unfamiliar with pits.

[Cheetah]

The HSUS is an overhead organization that takes in funds & pays their employees nice hefty salaries while doing nothing to help animals. Do some research on all the lawsuits they are involved in & all the investigations into their funding they are undergoing. They are riding the name to fill their own pockets.

I am not sure if that was meant to be defensive toward what I said which you quoted, but it shouldn't have been. I was agreeing with you. I was just saying that from what I have read, the HSUS doesn't own any of the local "Humane Society" shelters (for example, in my case, The Colorado Humane Society which I have seen, been in, adopted a dog from, and they take very good care of their animals), and the Humane Society of the United States themselves are a money-stealing organization like PETA and are not associated with all the small local humane organizations. And so I was saying that you were talking about the HSUS, not all the local humane societies that are not associated with them at all, except for a similarity in names (the word "humane" these days is very common). >u.u<

And I don't think everyone who owns a pit is a druggie scumbag. In fact, I would very much like to own one myself some day (which is why very early in the thread, I said I refused to live in the city of Denver, which I am near, because there is a breed ban there which I am against). I'm not sure who on this thread you are talking about. The only anti-pit people I've seen on here were either totally new or trolls lol...

What's up with the thread on the game-dogs forum now recruiting all the members there to come here and argue on this thread? No wonder it's so long, tense, and defensive... It makes us all out to be complete morons. That's sortof offensive, because I KNOW about Pit Bulls (APBT), and I am AGAINST BSL (having to live next to a city where it is enforced and hoping to have a pitty some day myself), and I am no professional, but I will admit that I know quite a bit about dogs and their care and training. I haven't said much on this thread (and NONE of what I have said was offensive in any way), but that really irks me. I am NOT a moron and I know many others here are not either and it seems quite inappropriate to go recruiting armies of members to "educate the closed-minded morons," or let one or two threads with the same people on them be an example for the entire forum. There are a lot more people on this forum than there are posting on this thread. >-.-;<

[blue]

http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17206&page=1&pp=10

Please spread the truth and not be evasive or make us dig and prod for info. Volunteer info dont make us guess.

*edit* So we dont ask the same question over and over, maybe emphisize your posts or bold type or even color the text so it stands out. Yall have been geat, even Gamedogs has been more forthcoming on his posts.

[silverpawz]

What's up with the thread on the game-dogs forum now recruiting all the members there to come here and argue on this thread?

I just read that. Apparently none of us have "real" dogs. LOL
I'll be sure to tell my Herding dogs that they're not real, although they'll probably wonder if that makes them exempt from the house rules.

I also want to say that I have NOTHING against Pit bulls. I've worked with a few and they all seemed to be perfectly nice dogs. I know I've been pretty loud in this thread about certain topics, but I want to be clear that I'm not anti-pit. I'm just anti-chaining and anti-dog fighting, and that's not something that will ever change.

[2nd2none]

http://game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17206&page=1&pp=10

Please spread the truth and not be evasive or make us dig and prod for info. Volunteer info dont make us guess.


sorry you feel we have not been "truthful" and "evasive"...
I thought the answers given on this thread were forthcoming and pretty straightforward :confused:
...my mistake then, ...

[Georgygirl]

I guess I don't see anything wrong with that thread. Everyone was stressing that peope should be very nice and patient. I don't see why asking other APBT owners to join and share their experience with the breed is so bad. This thread is meant to educate people about the breed. What better people to talk to than the people who work and live with them everyday.

[blue]

sorry you feel we have not been "truthful" and "evasive"...
I thought the answers given on this thread were forthcoming and pretty straightforward :confused:
...my mistake then, ...

With the exception of Gamedogs initial posts yall have been very forthcoming and open with your posts as well as I feel truthfull.

[Gamedogs]

With the exception of Gamedogs initial posts yall have been very forthcoming and open with your posts as well as I feel truthfull.You obviously want your breed to be held in the best light possible, dont make us pull teeth to get the info out of you. Relax a little with your posts.I am totally relaxed with my posts, there is no room for emotion in any discussion... and I believe you have the wrong impression of me. As I've already explained to the person that closed the original thread, the only reason I am here is because of the accusations and theoretical "facts" mentioned about my dog without knowledge of anything related to her, me, or anything else, based simply upon a "picture."

If you (basically, members on this forum) are interested in learning something about "this breed" (APBTs specifically), you are more than welcome to either visit, frequent, or read the discussions on my site, game-dog.com, or register there and advertise this thread with exactly what you expect out of the discussion included.

Again, my only purpose here is for the inaccuracies and assumptions made toward the pictures that were posted, and most (not all) questions related to them. If you want anything more, I can not possibly be the only one to be of service to you.I rest my case.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Gamedogs, I don't have a problem with your dogs....as a matter of fact, I think they are gorgeous. I do dislike when people make assumtions that the majority of people here hate bullys.....that is completely the farthest thing from the truth. If they were like that here, I wouldn't be here. I just figured I would set the record straight. :D

[Texasbulldogs]

Savethebulliebreeds:

Woah! I am a little confused at that whole post.
What’s there to be confused over?

I would like to say I find nothing wrong with flyball, conformation, weight pulling etc.
Might not be anything “wrong” with the actual events themselves. The trouble comes from greed and mans competitive nature. Instead of doing those sports for joy, something to do with their dog during the off season, exercise, etc many go to extremes and start breeding specifically for said events which is totally opposite of what said breed was designed for. Look at the various dogs and mutts being breed these days specifically for fly-ball, look at the harmful breeding practices that have resulted from individuals breeding simply for conformation without any regard to working traits, and look at the mutts being registered and passed off as APBT’s that was breed purely for weight pulling and not the breed’s actual standard. Do you feel those events actually offer a breed anything positive overall? Surely you don’t think an AKC Champion of Champion (whatever they call it) can work a field all day tracking game bird and retrieving them, or work in nearly frozen water retrieving fallen duck and/or geese for it owner? You think an AKC registered Cocker Spaniel show champion still has the nose, mettle, and coat to work the fields like they was originally breed to do? You believe any dogs being bred solely for their fly-ball abilities are actually conforming to their breed standard or the actual event? Are the vast majority of weight pulling APBT’s breed to standard or for the event of weight pulling? Please inform me how nothing is wrong about those events that ultimately affect a breed negatively more than any BYB will/would ever?

I would also like to say that the people here take care of what is in their home and everything else comes second. Educating and discussing our beliefs (and many of our beliefs differ here) comes second.
That’s pure speculation on your part! If that was true the vast majority wouldn’t be on here during working hours, instead would be doing their job. At night the vast majority wouldn’t be on either being odds are they have over-weight and out of shape dog/s-both dog and owner could use the exercise. Yet the majority of boards are active the overwhelming majority of any given day. Educating via text only goes so far and if a person never owns a true representative of a breed…can they really “educate” anyone on it, or are they simply just parroting what they’ve heard or read elsewhere never truly knowing if what they’re saying it true or not? I’ve talked to countless individuals about nutrition and the vast majority can’t state why they feed or recommend “X” kibble yet will readily offer advice on nutrition or kibble recommendations. Are they somehow “educating” other despite being clueless themselves?

I do worry what other people do with their dogs, after I take care of mine.
Why…what concern is it of you what “X” person does with their own dogs? If they leave them in the house 24/7 and provide no stimuli, leaves them in a kennel their entire lives with little training or companionship, and feeds Dollar Store brand dog food…how does it concern you or anyone else? After all “cruelty” is nothing but a matter of ones perspective is it not? I think it's cruel to have a dog solely as a pet, to have them over weight, etc should I concern myself with the majority of dog owners and their lack of education and knowledge in husbandry?

I do however agree with you that some people who own pits use the dog aggression excuse. Like I said before...it may have been bred into them but it can be trained out!
If talking about training out the dog aggression…impossible without ruining the dog and it’s spirit! If talking about obedience issues or controllability in a crowd or around other dogs while on a leash then yes.

Gamedogs:

Actually, when the picture in question was taken, she had been on Wild and Natural for about 3 months, there are only 2 out of 5 pictures posted of her on this site when she was on Canidae.
Okay too much switching of kibbles for my dilapidated brain to keep up with.

I'm sure every dog you feed doesn't get fed Canidae because each dog is different, and if all of them do, then you must have it being made especially for you, because I had a completely different experience with it.
Yes every dog I’ve feed for the last decade or around about have been feed and done well on Canidae. The only exception was for about six month at the beginning of this year when they went through an unannounced ingredient change (guessing) or something and the quality dropped and I switched. Other than that they’ve all done well on it and never seen one in person that hasn’t. Have had numerous dogs come and go of various ages and they’ve all adjusted well to it, after going through the standard detoxify period of their systems adjust to proper nutrition and ridding the body of the poisons fed before. Out of the dozen or so yards I visit frequently that feed it (about 120-160 dogs total) I’ve seen only one that didn’t do well on it and believe it wasn’t the kibble but the age of the bitch (14) and her state of health-she was taken off it and remained on Pro Plan.

Silverpawz:

Are you kidding? So you prefer dog fighting to conformation shows, agility and other legitimate dog sports?
A discussion/debate gets nowhere if questions are answered with questions instead of replies! But I’d love for you to point out where I stated or even alluded to preferring either over the other.

You don't find anything cruel about tossing two aggressive dogs together and watching them mangle one another?
Well other than the make believe internet world, fabrications of Humane Groups, and extremist I’ve never once heard or even seen in all the propaganda motivated video’s circulated on the internet two fighting dogs being “tossed” together. If I’m not mistaken that would be considered a foul and end of such event? Please inform me of my errors though…odds are you’ve never seen such either just a figment of your out of control imagination! Just imagine if the UFC and/or other mixed martial arts competitions were not nationally televised how the same type of extremist could paint a polar opposite mental picture of what actually happens and occurs in said competition for those uneducated individuals willing to believe any unknown strangers description of it?

Please, do tell, what harmful effects has flyball, agility and other dog sports caused? Enlighten us. Because last I herd dogs wern't being ripped apart by eachother on the agility field...
Refer to above in my reply to Savethebulliebreeds! You truly need to regain control of your imagination or start showing some factual documentation to all these claims you have. Please inform this board of any dog in the history of the canine that was “ripped apart” by another dog in a fight between it and another dog! The stories and fairy tails become more exotic, cruel, and imaginative as the days go on-some people really need to get a hobby or life! Can’t wait for next week they’ll be able to decollate a Cape buffalo with a single neck bite while wearing a steel muzzle and dragging 100,000lb chains that they broke. Oh what evil mutants they are!

[silverpawz]

Well other than the make believe internet world, fabrications of Humane Groups, and extremist I’ve never once heard or even seen in all the propaganda motivated video’s circulated on the internet two fighting dogs being “tossed” together.

So the owners don't intentionally put two dogs in the same pit for the purpose of fighting in a dog fight?

Just imagine if the UFC and/or other mixed martial arts competitions were not nationally televised how the same type of extremist could paint a polar opposite mental picture of what actually happens and occurs in said competition for those uneducated individuals willing to believe any unknown strangers description of it?

Please do not compare dog fighting to martial arts. The humans make a choice to go in the ring and spar. For the dogs that choice is made for them the minute somone sets up a fight and puts two dogs against each other. Of course instinct will take over at that point, but the choice to actually set up the fight and enter the 'ring' is not their own.

It is not the same thing and there is no basis for comparision.

Please inform this board of any dog in the history of the canine that was “ripped apart” by another dog in a fight between it and another dog!

Seriously, I think we all know that I was not saying dogs litterally rip each other's limbs off. Dog fighting does hwoever, cause serious injuries. Do you deny that? Can you honestly say that a dog is just as safe in a dog fight as they are in obedience ring?

You truly need to regain control of your imagination or start showing some factual documentation to all these claims you have.
Sigh, that darn imagination of mine always causing trouble...

If that was true the vast majority wouldn’t be on here during working hours, instead would be doing their job. At night the vast majority wouldn’t be on either being odds are they have over-weight and out of shape dog/s-both dog and owner could use the exercise. Yet the majority of boards are active the overwhelming majority of any given day.

Now who's speculating?

I feel like I'm just repeating myself here. I think it's obvious where I stand on the issue of dog fighting and chaining so I'm going to back out now. I'm not going to change my mind and I doubt our newest pit bull members are going to change theirs. I have no desire to go around in circles forever.

[Amstaffer]

I do worry what other people do with their dogs, after I take care of mine.
Why…what concern is it of you what “X” person does with their own dogs? If they leave them in the house 24/7 and provide no stimuli, leaves them in a kennel their entire lives with little training or companionship, and feeds Dollar Store brand dog food…how does it concern you or anyone else? After all “cruelty” is nothing but a matter of ones perspective is it not? I think it's cruel to have a dog solely as a pet, to have them over weight, etc should I concern myself with the majority of dog owners and their lack of education and knowledge in husbandry? !

You show your true colors here in this post: Abuse and Cruelty is not perspective. We as a society do have standards for them. Your "own" dog, you look at your dog as property not a family member and not a loved one when you speak like that!

Contrary to the PC world we can make judgements and as a society to let you know when you are abusing an animal. If you are neglecting or cause physical/mental harm....you are abusing!

[Julie]

**the first dog that was pictured (Lil Bit) happened to be a house dog, along with Rufus (the brindle dog). They live in separate rooms. The other 6 live outside.


Julie,
For your information she does live in the house and not on "that chain". She once in a while gets to go outside with the other dogs. She is the baby. She gets no more exercise than the others if she even gets as much as the others. It might be best if you kept your thoughts to yourself because the are made without any knowledge of Lil Bit. Since you don't know her or her owner you shouldn't make comments that insinuate that someone is a liar.

Excuse Me, This is a public forum.......That is my opinion. Take it as you wish. I don't have to keep my thoughts to myself, just like anyone else on here. I don't know why you singled my posts out, because there are many more just like it on this thread. I don't know why you pm'd me and posted the exact same thing in a public post. I have also avoided this thread for the last two days because I get a really bad feeling from it.

Okay.......Well I guess Lil Bit and Rufus get to live in seperate rooms.
What about the other 6.

I am really done.

[MomOf7]

OFA: Is that nothing more than a useless test that does nothing but waste time and money all the while offering peddlers…excuse me, breeders of a breed another sales ploy they can use to as a marketing gimmick? After all before dogs were kept solely as pets and breed away from working standards were there problems with hip dysplasia? Don’t think so! Has decades of testing and screening removed it from any breed of canine? Again, NO! Amazing how numerous studies have shown it not to be necessarily a genetic problem as once thought but in fact more of improper nutrition. That is brought on by extremely fast growth rates, over feeding, lack of exercise, etc. Could that be the reason over the last 5 years dog food manufacturers have changed their nutrient profiles on their puppy formulas?
What tests do you believe help weed out hereditary problems many breeders face?

[J's crew]

As a person extremely concerned about BSL I do everything to promote my Rottweilers in a good light. Question for those who do chain their dogs.......do you really thing that is portraying them in a positive light?

[Miakoda]

As a person extremely concerned about BSL I do everything to promote my Rottweilers in a good light. Question for those who do chain their dogs.......do you really thing that is portraying them in a positive light?

So should we let them run loose? Should we take them to dog parks where they migh (& probably will) start a fight & end up severely injuring another dog if not killing it? Would that help? Or should we keep them locked in kennels for 12 hours during the day, take them out for 2-3 hourse while we are busying & have no time to devote to them anyways, & then lock them back up for nighttim sleep? At lease this way they will be a) with their humans & b) in the house. However, I fail to see how a dog living in a crate big enough for it to stand up & turn around in is living. These are not goldfish.

As for dog aggression, it canNOT be "trained" out of a dog. Yes, one can train their dog to walk correctly on a leash & not go lunging after after dog it sees. However, to say one can train this trait of the bulldog breeds is ignorant. It's like saying that I want a herding dog, but I'm going to train the herding instinct out of it because I don't like dogs that herd. Or that I'm going to get me a Labrado Retreiver or Chesepeake Retriever & train the retrieving trait out of it b/c I don't like dogs who want to retrieve stuff. Now does this actually sound logical to you?

I'm done with this thread. This has turned form possibly being an educational thread into an accusatory pissing match.

I can only hope that those who've stated they want a "pit bull", but yet despise dog aggression, stay away from all bulldog & terrier breeds. We don't need to read another headline & story where the owner states "But they've never acted like/done that before."

If one cannot love a breed for ALL it's traits, then one cannot fully love. To want to change something is not love, but is hate for if one fully loved it, one would not want to change it in any possible way.

My pm box will remain open to anyone who seriously wants to learn more about the "pit bull" breeds & I will answer questions to the best that I can. But I will no longer remain active in a thread where true APBT owners are not wanted b/c we interfere with they daydream some people want to live their entire lives in. Have a good day.

[J's crew]

So should we let them run loose? Should we take them to dog parks where they migh (& probably will) start a fight & end up severely injuring another dog if not killing it? Would that help? Or should we keep them locked in kennels for 12 hours during the day, take them out for 2-3 hourse while we are busying & have no time to devote to them anyways, & then lock them back up for nighttim sleep? At lease this way they will be a) with their humans & b) in the house. However, I fail to see how a dog living in a crate big enough for it to stand up & turn around in is living. These are not goldfish.

No, you shouldn't. Like I have stated before I have had and still do have dogs that will kill each other if given the chance. I have two bitches right now that I cannot even let see each other. I make it work. It's really not a big deal. They all get love and attention, and they are properly contained. Of course it is not the best situation, but in my case I rescue and foster dogs. I figure as long as they are getting vet care, good food and love and attention, it is better than the alternative.

And your right. They are not goldfish. They are living, breathing, loving creatures that do not deserve to have a big chain on them because someone cannot properly manage them.

Oh, BTW, I have owned ABPT's in the past. I never had to chain them. ;)

[Zoom]

Dragging the focus away from the chaining argument for a moment...I propose a slight topic shift, because a few comments have drawn my (possibly morbid) interest. A warning to ANY AND ALL Chazzers, new or old, to keep this next part CIVIL.

Dogfighting. While here on Chaz it's one of those "dirty words" that conjure up images of ripped apart dogs, Animal Precinct and all that propoganda from over the years, it seems that game-dogs has a slightly different view on it. I, for one, am interesting in hearing more about that view and how the reality differs. The comparison was drawn between a dog fight and UFC, let's start from there.

[2nd2none]

Oh, BTW, I have owned ABPT's in the past. I never had to chain them. ;)


well, that's good that you must have the means then to contain them otherwise. If, however you have more dogs as opposed to more rooms in your house, and imo, chaining is far less restrictive in terms of area and space to "move", then what is it that you propose people to do here? Let them all roam around together in your home anyway, because it "appears" to be more humane????? Or, should we limit our numbers, then, so they can live inside, as opposed to outside simply to make someone else happy?
Again, and I (we) can NOT stress this enough. This breed WILL fight with one another if left on their own devices. As todays' owners, we did not instill this into them. A hundred years of history has already done that. We know this. We accept this, again, as part of the "terms" of both having and raising this breed. It is FAR more irresponsible to NOT contain this breed. FAR more!!!
There really is no need nor any benefit to go around and around on this issue of containment/chaining. I thought the answers given were sufficient and well explained, but as is human nature, yes, EVERY one will have an answer, an explanatation or, what they feel is a "better reason" on why something should or shouldn't be done, yes, based on personal opinion. All's I can say is, unless or until you own, have experience with or choose to want to learn and research this breed, the information you will hear and read about will only ever be second hand, based on someone else's opinion, and most likely swayed by media hype. It goes with out saying that in todays' times, due to the fact that the "pit bull" is so popular, and SO many are owned, registered and bred, that they will "frequent" the news moreso than most breeds. You will ALWAYS hear and read about more "pit bull" attacks, than any other breed.The media thrives on this. Which is why, we, as owners have to be FAR more diligent with our responsiblilties=yes, containment, is one aspect. Think of it in terms of something else, to help put it in proper perspective: if there were suddenly lots more people buying more Fords, I imagine the stories regarding Fords would surpass the stories regarding Chevys. Simple analogy, but hopefully, you get the idea...
There is a "pit bull" problem today, because of irresponsible owners, NOT because of the dogs. Certain "owners" who also think that containing their dogs is cruel and choose to allow them to roam are the problem. EVERY single "attack", mauling, etc, has a ripple effect and EVERY irresponsible owner effects EVERY owner. There is NO exception to this. NONE! As owners of this breed, we ALL affect each other. For every action, there's a reaction... We all pay, in the long run...
I'm not sure how much I can reemphasize the importance of being responsible, especially in regards to this breed. I just know, I studied, I bought books, I went to shows and I found a "mentor" who has been a great friend and a wonderful, patient teacher to me, in regards to every aspect of this breed. I learned. I became responsible, perhaps to the dismay of other dog breed owners.
They are NOT a breed for the "couch potato", the beginner or an owner that wants a houseful of dogs to happily cohabitate together. That won't happen. It's rare when it does. If we choose to have both inside and outside dogs, it's the quality and the quanity of care that matters. Humans have domesticated the canine. They have lived happily for many, many years as "outside" animals. Suddenly we have personified, humanized and hypothesised that we ALL know best.
Walk in another mans' shoes, BEFORE you cast judgement. A man can love his dogs outside on a chain, just as much as you can love yours, sitting beside you on your couch.:)

[MissBelle]

Like I said before...it may have been bred into them but it can be trained out!


You are SOOOOOO wrong with that statement. Now, while many bulldogs do not display any dog aggressive signs, that does NOT mean that they dont lay below the surface. What i mean is your dog may never show any signs, but if provoked your dog will most likely finish it. Which is why i ALWAYS go by "NEVER trust a Pit Bull not to fight".


Its in their blood, its what they love to do whether you like it or not. If you have a dog that "turns on", i dont care how many Cesar Milans you have, that dog will stay that way.

Now dont misconstrew my words, i am NOT saying that all APBT's are. I am saying that you should always be prepared for the worst, and dont give your dogs the opportunity to get into a scrap. This means STAY OUT OF DOG PARKS (you wouldnt take a hunting dog to a bunny farm would you?), ALWAYS keep your dog on a leash, and keep your dog properly contained. I always take a step back and look at my kennel/chain set-ups, and think... is there ANY way to get out? If so, even if i think the dog would never try it, i fix it.

I have had escape artist dogs, and i learned the hard way better safe than sorry.

If you cannot accept the past, MOVE ON TO ANOTHER BREED.

[GHOST]

Dragging the focus away from the chaining argument for a moment...I propose a slight topic shift, because a few comments have drawn my (possibly morbid) interest. A warning to ANY AND ALL Chazzers, new or old, to keep this next part CIVIL.

Dogfighting. While here on Chaz it's one of those "dirty words" that conjure up images of ripped apart dogs, Animal Precinct and all that propoganda from over the years, it seems that game-dogs has a slightly different view on it. I, for one, am interesting in hearing more about that view and how the reality differs. The comparison was drawn between a dog fight and UFC, let's start from there.

i've tryed to stay out of this conversation but it just a never ending circle,,,
dogfighting may be a dirty word on here but ,,,, where would the apbt be without it,,,, thats what they were breed for and is what has given us one of the most loyal and loving dogs of today,,,no it's not politically correct but its no different than any other law breaking offence,,, one of the biggest problems of today is ppl sticking there nose where it really has no business,,:yikes: :popcorn:

i not meaning to offend anyone but when you take someone else dog and run them into the ground just cuz u can,,,, these types of things happen

[GHOST]

now for as the chaining aspect,,,, with all the bsl going on today and whatnot,,, why in the world would you not chain one to avoid incident,,,
thats all we need is another incident in the papers or TV,,, i'd rather be overprotective than irresponsible,,where would you really want to sit?

life is what it is,, it's not always a bed of roses but it does have it's peaks and valley's,,don't get me wrong,,, i'm not a chain fan,,, but i do believe in secure kennels,,, mine has electric on top and bottom,,,25x25 foot pens

[GHOST]

You are SOOOOOO wrong with that statement. Now, while many bulldogs do not display any dog aggressive signs, that does NOT mean that they dont lay below the surface. What i mean is your dog may never show any signs, but if provoked your dog will most likely finish it. Which is why i ALWAYS go by "NEVER trust a Pit Bull not to fight".


Its in their blood, its what they love to do whether you like it or not. If you have a dog that "turns on", i dont care how many Cesar Milans you have, that dog will stay that way.

Now dont misconstrew my words, i am NOT saying that all APBT's are. I am saying that you should always be prepared for the worst, and dont give your dogs the opportunity to get into a scrap. This means STAY OUT OF DOG PARKS (you wouldnt take a hunting dog to a bunny farm would you?), ALWAYS keep your dog on a leash, and keep your dog properly contained. I always take a step back and look at my kennel/chain set-ups, and think... is there ANY way to get out? If so, even if i think the dog would never try it, i fix it.

I have had escape artist dogs, and i learned the hard way better safe than sorry.

If you cannot accept the past, MOVE ON TO ANOTHER BREED.

it can't be trained out but over the years of breeding and socailization it's gameness will fad away from the dogs lines without utilizing it,,,over a couple generations it will lose it,,through socialization

[dr2little]

[QUOTE=GHOST;493681]i've tryed to stay out of this conversation but it just a never ending circle,,,
dogfighting may be a dirty word on here but ,,,, where would the apbt be without it CERTAINLY NOT WHERE IT IS NOW - AT RISK OF MASS DISTRUCTION OR BSL. DOG FIGHTING IS VILE AND DISGUSTING, THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO PUT IT. HOW DARE WE HUMANS PUT ANY CREATURE IN THIS SITUATION. WE ALL NEED TO TRY TO MAKE THIS RIGHT AGAIN, WHEATHER BY BREEDING AGGRESSION BACK OUT OR HUMANE AND SAFE CARE OF THE ONES THAT ARE HERE (NOT BY THEIR CHOICE),,,, thats what they were breed for and is what has given us one of the most loyal and loving dogs of today,,,no it's not politically correct but its no different than any other law breaking offence,,, one of the biggest problems of today is ppl sticking there nose where it really has no business,,:yikes: :popcorn:

i not meaning to offend anyone but when you take someone else dog and run them into the ground just cuz u can,,,, these types of things happen
I have held a bait dog while she drew her last breath due to the horrors she was subjected to by the humans who were supposed to care for her. She did not die from her physical injuries, she was so damaged psychologically that rehab, though attempted could not be done.:mad:

[Maryellen]

i am sorry, but there is no such thing as a bait dog. the media and HSUS made that word up.. dogs either fight and live, or fight and die..

now i own a pitbull mix, and he lives with 2 other dogs, and various foster pups when i have them .. he looks like a pitbull, acts like one, and i treat him like a pitbull. i never leave him alone with my other 2 dogs, and he is properly supervised when with my other 2 dogs.. i have had him from 2 months old, he is now 4 years old. i follow the responsible pitbull ownership rules, and am a responsible owner. Rufus attended a year and a half of dog obedience classes from the time he was 2 months old, 3 times a week for that time every week.. i then got him his CGC title (before i was an evaluator) and then his therapy dog title, and then his www.atts.org title.. while he is a mix, i still am careful as he does have some pitbull heritage in him... here are some pics of him doing therapy work:

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[Maryellen]

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[Maryellen]

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[MissBelle]

Yes IMHO it think chaining a dog (especially a Bully Breed) outside for any longer than a few minutes is immoral, dangerous, irresponsible and cruel.

Why?

Immoral....because that dog (especially Bullys) love and demand human interaction and to deny them that is a form a mental torture.

Dangerous...People steal chained dogs all the time
Dangerous...Frustrated dogs who watch the world go by often become aggressive and develop mental health issues

Irresponsible...When someone buys a dog the make a social contract with that dog which requires much more from the owner than food and water.

Cruel...Neglect is more cruel than just shooting them in the head.

Oh, where do i start with this post.....

For 1 people steal dogs out of backyards, frontyards, kennels.... DOESNT matter, if they want your dog, they will take it.
I have had TWO dogs stolen out of my kennels. They walked right around the dogs that were on chains, and broke into my kennels.

2. ANY dog can get frustrated. Do you think leaving a dog in a kennel or in a crate all the time os ok? NO! Keeping dogs on a good proper chain set up is best. More room, and they are more active and happy that way. No dog should be left in any kind of set up for long periods of time w/out coming off/out. I rotate my dogs, they come inside, go in a kennel, and are put on the chain. Honest to god my dogs are happiest on the chain (well of course except for when they are with me). You have been believing the idiots on unchainyourdog.com

3. Once again irresponsibility and "cruelty" can happen ANYWHERE. Open your mind and please think. Since i am sure you have seen Animal Planets shows, how many countless abused dogs have you seen that are just in backyards, or kept in cages inside?? WAY more than dogs on chains. Please dont be ignorant.

When you come home to one of your dogs dead or dying from your ignorance, dont come crying to me.

[dr2little]

[QUOTE=Maryellen;493712]i am sorry, but there is no such thing as a bait dog. the media and HSUS made that word up.. dogs either fight and live, or fight and die..

now i own a pitbull mix, and he lives with 2 other dogs, and various foster pups when i have them .. he looks like a pitbull, acts like one, and i treat him like a pitbull. i never leave him alone with my other 2 dogs, and he is properly supervised when with my other 2 dogs.. i have had him from 2 months old, he is now 4 years old. i follow the responsible pitbull ownership rules, and am a responsible owner. Rufus attended a year and a half of dog obedience classes from the time he was 2 months old, 3 times a week for that time every week.. i then got him his CGC title (before i was an evaluator) and then his therapy dog title, and then his www.atts.org title.. while he is a mix, i still am careful as he does have some pitbull heritage in him... here are some pics of him doing therapy work:

There's no such thing as a bait dog??????? Pitbull rescue is what I do, so I'm affraid that you're PREACHING to the chior! What exactly is YOUR stand on pit fighting?

Also, I am the last one to have to be told about the wonderful temperments of these dogs.

[Zoom]

I think we're running up against the fundamental road block of chaining. Some people can chain their dogs and have a happy well-adjusted dog, some people chain their dogs and ignore them until they die, then haul the body away and chain up the new dog.

I spent quite a lot of time on a farm when I was a kid and my grandma always chained her new dogs at night and when she wasn't home to teach them where "home" was. These dogs also got to be loose and follow her around the farm during the day. They were happy and well-adjusted dogs, so I know it can be done. But you do have to realize how many of us are involved in rescue work and see more of the bad side, which in turn creates a gut-reaction against chaining.

[Maryellen]

please dont yell at me.. there is no such thing as a bait dog.. the media and HSUS made that term up..the dogs that are taken in are the dogs that LOST the fight unfortunately, and were dumped.. go to www.pbrc.net and look up sad reality, there are pictures of dogs that were thrown on bbq grills by humans, and tortured other ways as well.. they know nothing about the breed.. my stance on dogfighting? i HATE it. i HATE the people who do it, i would love to take those people and hang them by their balls and slowly torture them.. i would go to prison for a long time with the cruelty and torture i would give them..

and, me personally, i do not agree on chaining a dog outside... its my personal opinion.. my 3 dogs are house dogs, they sleep on the couches and beds, and are pampered.. none of them live outside on a chain, or stay outside for any periods of time. they are kept in the house when i am at work,and when i come home they are with me.

i am not preaching to the choir..s