View Full Version : Opinions...
~Tucker&Me~
10-18-2006, 02:08 AM
What do you think about these breeders?
http://www.kismet.net/sidekick/aboutus.htm
~Tucker
em&ollie
10-18-2006, 03:57 AM
I'm no expert but I naturally think trying to minimize a dog breed can't be good for health but I might be completely wrong.
Delisay
10-18-2006, 04:38 AM
Tucker, she seems to have her heart in the right place and priorities pretty much right, and communicates honestly about how she's going about creating a smaller version (like the Collie and so many others before). She also generously provides links to other Mini-Shepherd breeders, so it's unlikely to be all about money or ego for her. That's all pretty good.
However, there's a major potential problem with her stock being so inbred. She scores integrity points for letting you know that she's line bred for so many years, but that doesn't reduce the risks for you and would seem to have been rather unwise on her part. In fact, given that most pedigree dogs are inbred to start with (a small gene pool at the best of times), in pedigrees line-breeding is almost the same as full in-breeding anyway.
She has only just now introduced another line to start out-crossing to, but those pups may be a better bet. I expect that she will keep most of the smaller puppies from those litters, so you may need to be very patient unless you are content with a medium rather than small dog.
HTH. I'm sure others will have additional views...
Del.
Muggie'sMum
10-18-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm no expert but I naturally think trying to minimize a dog breed can't be good for health but I might be completely wrong.
This is nothing new, Miniature Australian Shepherds are not a completely new breed and she did not invent them.
I didn't realize mini aussies were such a huge discussion topic still! LOL
This woman is in our general area but we haven't done any business with her. Our mini aussies came from Nebraska and Missouri, respectively, as they had what we *wanted*, and we aim to breed *someday*.
I have to agree with Delisay on the "linebreeding" - I believe that every once in a while an inbreeding/linebreeding can be good for redefining or enforcing a good quality that you would like to run dominant in your breeding stock HOWEVER, as a regular practice, I'm not so sure. That's just my personal opinion. There are plenty of horse breeders who use a great deal of inbreeding/linebreeding in their stock very successfully - for example in the APHA Paint Horse Journal a couple of months ago, I saw several mares for sale confirmed back in foal to their sire/grandsire, and it was a very reputable farm. I think I would want to bring in more blood more quickly, personally, and don't feel it's THAT difficult to do so with such a large selection and the ease with which you can import dogs from other areas.
I actually don't believe this woman shows or breeds as actively as she once did for personal reasons, that is what I've heard.
rabbitsarebetter
10-18-2006, 01:59 PM
i thought mini aussies were old, and not talked about anymore either.
SummerRiot
10-18-2006, 03:28 PM
They aren't a "recognized" breed for the CKC or AKC..
they are a man made creation - like the "tea cup poodle"...
Muggie'sMum
10-18-2006, 05:14 PM
They aren't a "recognized" breed for the CKC or AKC..
Many breeds took some time to be "recognized". :)
But my point was that they're not a new "fad" breed - every breed is manmade. :)
SummerRiot
10-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Yuppers, currently the BC isn't a recognized breed in the CKC but is in the AKC.
My point was - there shouldn't be a "mini" style to a breed.. IMO.. ;)
Muggie'sMum
10-18-2006, 05:35 PM
Just to get this clear and not being picky - are you opposed to miniature breeds that ARE recognized by CKC and AKC as well? Just trying to understand! :)
~Tucker&Me~
10-18-2006, 06:30 PM
To add to what Muggie's Mum said, does that mean that miniature and toy poodles were not responsibly made?
Again, I am just wondering.
It is a shame, as I really love this breed... :(
~Tucker
I know this breeder personally. One of my trainers has 3 of her dogs, my boss/friend has one of her dogs, and I have quite a few other friends with Karen's dogs.
I would get a dog from her in a heartbeat. All of her dogs have excellent temperaments, lots of drive, and all the ones I am familiar with are excelling in frisbee/agility/obed/herding..None of the ones I'm familiar with have any health problems.
She is a very responsible breeder when it comes to placing her puppies (which ones not to be shown in conformation are on strict spay/neuter contracts), and very responsible in keeping up with the health and well being of all her puppies/dogs.
I really like her and what she produces and her breeder ethics. She is someone I would highly recommend. Tho I have standard sized aussies, I'd take one of hers in a second.
Diane
~Tucker&Me~
10-18-2006, 07:10 PM
So Jynx,
Would you think it is not bad to breed mini's? I don't want to support some fad or something... :(
~Tucker
Purdue#1
10-18-2006, 08:37 PM
I don't care to much about the minis as long as they are bred right. Minis can still work in agility and herding.The NSDR( National Stock Dog Registry) registers the minis. If they can work in competitions and prove temselves, fine. what i have the problem with is the toys that weigh no more than 10 lbs. and look like they have other breeds in them, Like this:
http://www.toyaustralianshepherds.com/
http://www.toledotel.com/~smokeyvly/aussie.html
I think our dog we had for 15 years was a mini and we didn't know that until just recently when i started getting on these dog forums, which btw is wonderful. She was no more than 40 lbs., might have weighed less than that by a few lbs.
Muggie'sMum
10-19-2006, 08:51 AM
Jynx - we had heard that Karen no longer breeds -- can you back that up??
Purdue, that is exactly what I am talking about. ;)
Cole's Mom
10-19-2006, 11:38 AM
I just have a gut opinion here. I understand that she is a dedicated breeder who is up front about her practices. But somehow, this just does not sit well with me. I keep thinking of someone taking my breed, Dobes, and deciding they do not like what size the standard says they should be and start breeding mini Dobes. This has already happened on the other end of the scale. Giant, king dobes. Dobes the size of Danes. And now, we have "white" breeders. If you love the breed, why do you need some variation of what is in the standard?
Just a thought,
Cole's Mom
stevinski
10-19-2006, 01:53 PM
just have a gut opinion here. I understand that she is a dedicated breeder who is up front about her practices. But somehow, this just does not sit well with me. I keep thinking of someone taking my breed, Dobes, and deciding they do not like what size the standard says they should be and start breeding mini Dobes. This has already happened on the other end of the scale. Giant, king dobes. Dobes the size of Danes. And now, we have "white" breeders. If you love the breed, why do you need some variation of what is in the standard?
been around for years
doberman pinschers - miniature pinschers
and i have no problem with it, as they are a recognized breed
Steve, Min Pins are not Mini Dobermans. Far from it. They have some similar terrier ancestry, but the Min Pin is not a miniaturized version ofthe Dobe.
To be honest, there IS a niche to be filled as far as the Mini Aussie is concerned. With the exception of the English Shepherd, which is quite rare and expensive to acquire, there are no 25-45lb upright herding breeds out there. You have the Border Collie which is the right size, but some people can't stand the way they work. You have the Collies, but they're even larger than the standard-sized Aussie. Shelties are *too* small for most people . . . etc. It isn't like there are dozens of other breeds doing the exact same thing, so why not? It seems that the Mini Aussie has retained its working ability and soundness. I'm a Border Collie person myself, but if I wanted an upright worker of similar size, I'd absolutely get a Mini Aussie.
Purdue#1
10-19-2006, 04:40 PM
Purdue, that is exactly what I am talking about. ;)
Where is that box with legs photo when you need one? :lol-sign:
Googling didn't work so i guess i'll have to create my own......
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Purdue#1
10-19-2006, 04:41 PM
Geat, it messed it up.
Cole's Mom
10-19-2006, 05:33 PM
Steve, Min Pins are not Mini Dobermans. Far from it. They have some similar terrier ancestry, but the Min Pin is not a miniaturized version ofthe Dobe.
Thank you.
Cole's Mom
Muggies Mom, your right, altho I hear she is whelping a litter soon..Alot of personal stuff and she wanted/needed a break. My boss/friend is the latest of my friends to get one of her mini's, I believe that was the last litter she had bred, which just turned one year old. It's on her website, the puppy was called "Erin" out of her Sassy litter,,well my friend calls her Bella (I call her Bella - boo) she is a spitfire. My trainers dogs I believe are on Karen's site, Jovi, Chase & Axel. All highly titled Frisbee dogs/Flyball dogs..Another friend has two of her dogs, they are doing Free Style..
Tucker, as I mentioned I own "standard" aussies,,mine are on the small end of the spectrum at around 21"..I have no problem with mini's, IF the breeder is responsible ALL the way around. I think Karen is. As with MM, I do not agree with the "toy" aussies, they are not just toy aussies, they have really thrown in other breeds to downsize them to papillon size which I think will result in a whole bag of problems.
With the mini's aussies (I can't compare them to other "miniaturized breeds")
they have not been crossed with other breeds to downsize, they have used standard sized aussies, and gone smaller to smaller while the responsible breeders of these dogs, are looking for not just size to do this.
I have had the chance to get smaller standard aussies (not the right time, I have enough dogs to work with at the moment),,one as small as 16",,while it would probably be considered "mini",,it is not, it is out of standard AKC/ASCA/NSDR sized dogs..Just saying, there ARE small sized standard aussies out there.
Someone once told me, I forget who, that the mini's were supposedly more laid back than "standard" aussies,,I've found this to be NOT true, most I know, are very driven and just as energetic and ready to "go get em" as the standards..
Ok done rambling
Diane
~Tucker&Me~
10-20-2006, 02:19 AM
I also really like the look of these dogs:
http://www.geocities.com/skoachsminiaussies/ourdogs.html
I don't see a lot of titles though...
Opinions?
~Tucker
~Tucker&Me~
10-20-2006, 02:28 AM
I sent a letter to Skoach's. Here's what I said.
I will post the reply to get more opinions :D.
Hello,
My name is Emily, and I am really interested in your dogs and your breeding program.
I read that you have an upcoming breeding planned and was hoping that you could answer some questions for me.
#1- What makes Savanna and Ray exceptional to the point that they should be bred? What are their accomplishments?
#2-What types of testing do you do to insure no hereditary issues are passed on?
#3-Do you test for Von Willebrands disease? Have any of the dogs in your lines had this disease?
#4-Have your dogs had their eyes screened and passed?
#5-What do you compete in with your dogs?
Thanks in advance, I am very interested in your breeding program and dogs.
Cheers,
Emily
inquiry sounds good, however I don't think VWD is something aussies are prone to..You want to look for CERF testing, (which is eye testing, they can do this on puppies prior to 8 weeks)..also epilepsy can be pretty rampant in aussies, tho not alot of aussie breeders are going to admit to that..
If your looking for a mini, and I see your from Canada, if Karen is to far for you, why not email her and ask her for a referral?
Diane
showpug
10-20-2006, 05:04 PM
This breeder does CERF and OFA. If you click on an individual dog's pedigree on her website at the top of that dog's page is it's OFA and CERF rating.
Here is an example. Look to the top of the page. Her current dogs are OFA good and CERF clear.
http://www.kismet.net/sidekick/pedigrees/timped.htm
~Tucker&Me~
10-20-2006, 08:01 PM
Oh okay, thank Showpug.
Jynx, I read here:
http://members.aol.com/MiniAussie/Frames8.htm
That apparently it was rather common.
It's not that Karen is too far away, it's just that I want to get some basic knowledge of as many breeders as I can before I decide on one :).
~Tucker
Mordy
10-20-2006, 08:48 PM
They aren't a "recognized" breed for the CKC or AKC..
Since when is the AKC the last word on whether a breed is legitimate? Just because they don't recognize one or another doesn't mean squat.
The FCI (Fédération Cynologique Internationale - the World Canine Organization) currently recognizes 337 breeds, the AKC only fully recognizes 155, plus a small number of others in their FSS service; but I wouldn't even take that as the "last word" on what's legitimate or not.
I wouldn't hold the AKC as the final authority, but I know that the ASCA, the parent club of the Aussie, is opposed to the deliberate breeding of mini Aussies.
To those who are striving to keep everything about the Aussie the same, but downscaled slightly...I'm still on the fence about what to think. The small end of the standard scale is still pretty small to my eye, so I'm not sure why one would go smaller, especially when working cattle or difficult sheep.
As far as normal health testing and such, she seems decent.
SummerRiot
10-20-2006, 10:41 PM
Just to get this clear and not being picky - are you opposed to miniature breeds that ARE recognized by CKC and AKC as well? Just trying to understand! :)
Nopers, by all means.
I just feel that if you like the breed - you shouldn't change it to meet YOUR needs and then market it as a "mini".
I could only imagine if they decided to start breeding Mini Belgians.. *cries* just horrible...
There are already three variations to the Schnauzer and Poodle...thats enough for me lol
Purdue#1
10-21-2006, 01:37 PM
NSDR (national stock dog registry) registers mini aussies.
Here's the site:
www.nationalstockdog.com/
Tucker, could very well be, I just hadn't heard this regarding mini's or standards for that matter..hey the more testing the better!!!!
Certainly check around, I am all for that..Also, I would ask if they have MDR1 tested their dogs. Since 1/3 of all aussies carry the mdr1 gene in one form or another I would "think" since the mini's at one point or another are coming from standard dogs that it could very well be something they could possibly carry.
And yes, I would say the majority of asca and/or standard sized aussie breeders are not "mini" fans. Again, I don't have a problem if any breeder is a responsible one. There are also quite a few standard/asca breeders that have USED their dogs within that "mini" gene pool, even tho most probably won't admit it. I know of two personally and I consider them responsible breeders as well.
AND keep in mind, there are quite a few mini's that AKC has ILP'd as aussies, that are pretty high up in the agility world. I agree AKC ain't the only registry on the block *vbg*..
Anyhow Tucker good luck in your search, they are comical little characters and have just as much "umpf" as the bigger ones.
Diane
~Tucker&Me~
10-22-2006, 03:31 AM
Thanks for the opinions and suggestions everyone!
I'll let you know if we ever get to the next step... LOL.
My mom's being a... Nevermind... LOL
~Tucker
Muggie'sMum
10-22-2006, 11:02 PM
Oooh Savannah looks nice. :) Linderlands are pretty much some of the creme de la creme as far as conformation goes (as far as what I have heard - Morrie has some of that in him too :)) so she has some nice lines to back her up.
Jynx, I wonder if Karen wants a showing apprentice? LOL Morrie has earned a puppy championship (I am relatively new to this whole dog showing thing - mom, who actually purchased him as a confo. dog for herself has some experience from when we had shelties, so I am not sure what the appropriate 'title' would be for what he has earned) in Colorado before he came to us, but I have just found that the shows for mini aussies are so far away :P I saw on her site she has shown in Skowhegan, ME - that's not that far, we used to show horses there.. if there were some closer than Boston, I might consider going independantly, but I truly do need to learn the ropes and tricks of the trade, etc.. hopefully Morrie isn't too far gone into the realm of agility/hyperactivity to be able to hold it together at a show. :P I can just imagine him looking up at me and barking his head off in the middle of the show ring. *sigh*
He got very good ratings from judges at his colorado show, I am just thinking if he *has* good enough conformation to be competitive, I wouldn't want to ... 'squander' that in agility... although he is showing an exceptional talent in that realm as well... he just floats over jumps!
muggies mom, well you can always ask her! See if she'd be willing to mentor/help you with the conformation end of showing..I'm sure she could evaluate your pooch for you as well,,even if "he" isn't conformation material, you can always learn with him for the future..
Check your local training places and see if they offer "handling" classes and take one with him, they are loads of fun and great learning experience..
Heck do both,,show him AND do agility..aussies can do it all ya know *vbg*.
yes, those Rare breed shows are far and few in between,,I know this weekend there is one 45 minutes from me at a Pet Expo,,but that's unusual as I'm in CT..
diane