Tail Docking ? [Archive] - Chazhound Dog Forum

Toller_08

10-12-2006, 11:03 PM

With the Rotties, I'm pretty syre it was kept short to prevent their tails from getting stepped on while droving Cattle and was also docked to remove a 'handle' from the dog while guarding. With Weims and a few other sporting breeds, it was strictly to prevent the tails from getting hurt and/or broked but they left enough there so that they could still properly point and have somewhat of a rudder while swimming (this is what I was told by a Weim and Vizsla owner once). A lot of the breeds you see today who are docked extremely short (ex: Rottweiler) weren't docked as short a long time ago, judges for conformation shows just seem to prefer the short tail I guess so gradually they started docking shorter. As far as the Boxer and Doberman goes, I'm pretty sure they were also docked to get rid of handles as they are/were used as guarding breeds. Many Terriers were docked to prevent tail breakage but were left long enough to grab as a handle to get a dog out of a hole. All of this is just what I've been told over the years, and what I've read.

Some breeds are natural bob tails. I think those would be the Old English Sheepdog (not sure if any are born with long tails, but I know a lot are natural bobs)), Catahoula Leopard Dog (some or born with bobtails, some have full tails), Australian Shepherd (again some are, some aren't), Pembroke Welsh Corgis (some are, some aren't), and a possibly a few others that I can't think of right now.

bubbatd

10-12-2006, 11:29 PM

I understand the reason ... the Op was the length .

Toller_08

10-12-2006, 11:33 PM

I tried my best to explain the different lengths and why they are the way they are, hopefully someone else who can explain better will see this thread. :)

frenchboxer

10-13-2006, 12:58 AM

Chrissy&B

10-13-2006, 09:46 AM

I have to see that you don't see many docked dogs showing here in Europe because it's illegal now. Cropping ears and docking tails is supposed to be unethical and I have to say that I feel quite happy about it. :p

Awkward Angel

10-14-2006, 03:54 AM

What exactly IS Tail docking??:confused:

Chrissy&B

10-14-2006, 08:37 AM

Cutting the tail off after birth...... well known with working breeds like Spaniels, Dobermans, Boxers and so on.....

planet molosser

10-14-2006, 12:12 PM

For my breed some are born naturally docked so they can be done at the 3rd digit and sadly the new thrend of dog fighting taking over native countries have a 5 digit dock so they can pull them apart and use the tail high posture to start aggressive issues.

Chrissy&B

10-16-2006, 06:15 AM

Showing Rottweilers in Europe :) ..... all of them with tails and you have to admit that it's a pretty sight!

http://aika.moj-album.com/slike/1115306/HqDzrqNYBBukkhzT.v.jpg

Cliff von der Raspeburg
http://aika.moj-album.com/slike/1115306/HgVGj7pcz9kEGEyi.v.jpg

RedyreRottweilers

10-16-2006, 09:57 AM

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Gempress

10-16-2006, 10:33 AM

I must admit, I don't really like the look of the undocked rottie. To me, a rottie tail just doesn't look right. That semi-curly/fluffy tail looks like it belongs on a different breed or something, LOL.

I can't remember where it was, but I've seen a website that compared specifically the muscular development of docked rottweilers vs. undocked rottweilers. It showed how the musculature of the hindquarters was very different between the two. It was quite interesting.

Chrissy&B

10-16-2006, 10:44 AM

dr2little

10-16-2006, 11:02 AM

I guess it's all about what you're used to seeing. :) Here in Europe we don't dock or crop ears and most dogs we see in the show rings are `natural`. I quite frankly hardly see a docked Rottie these days and I reckon if I saw one I'd probably find it really strange! :p

I wish it was the same here...someday it will be. I think that you're right too that people like what's familiar to them. While I think there's almost nothing cuter than a Rotti NUB when it makes an attempt to wag (wiggle), I too love the au natural look.

So few dogs are actually doing the work that they were bred to do. Studies show less that a small portion of 1 percent, so the arguement for docking/cropping for that purpose is pretty diluted these days.
I do understand that some people just like the look better but I'm not sure that makes it necessary. JMO of course.:)

EDIT - My bad, I only read the last post and responded to it..
I have Brussels Griffons and while many are still cropped and docked, too many are done at home and incorrect for the standard. Someone here still uses elastic bands and ends up with no clear "recipe".

Char_06

10-16-2006, 12:27 PM

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b279/Lady_Sway_Fo_Eva/100_2535.jpg

I personally think my Rotti X Alsation was docked too short...
and i think a Rotti looks amazing with a natural tail...unfortunatly my dogs breeder got to her tail before we did :(

showpug

10-16-2006, 12:29 PM

[QUOTE=StillandSilent;479485]IAlso, are any breeds natural bobtails?

The French Bulldog has a natural kind of 'bobtail'. A lot of people ask why I have had my dog's tail docked, and some don't even believe me when I tell them that it is 100% natural :(

English bullies are the same way:)

On another note, I wanted to add that some dogs like German Shorthair and Wirehair pointers are docked for their purpose...pointing at birds. Their nose points towards the bird and tail acts as a guide as well. Their whole body works together to point towards the bird and the tail length plays a role in this.

I also have to admit that I don't like the look of an undocked rottie or an uncropped dane etc.

LizzieCollie

10-16-2006, 12:58 PM

Alexa's~Mom

10-16-2006, 05:54 PM

I wonder why some "breeders" choose to dock mixed breeds?

I'm not sure. My rottie cross was docked, even though I didn't want her to be, but that's the way it goes.

I can understand with the litter my pup came from, they all looked like rotties.

otch1

10-17-2006, 02:15 AM

Hoping to answer the original question, the length of a dock was determined by breed and use of the dog. Ratters owners needing a handle to grab after flushing vermine, but not wanting a natural tail that might tangle in bramble or get caught up. Bullbaiting dogs and fighting dogs having as much of the tail and ear taken off as possible so that there were no "handles' for another dog or prey to get ahold of or tear off. The length of these crops/dockings has gotten longer today, i.e. the Boxer or Doberman, simply because they're no longer used for their intended purpose, but the crops/docking, continued to be done for cosmetic purposes. There's nothing formidable about a big hound like Dobie with floppy ears and a long wagging tail. So for now... the lengths are determined more for esthetics than functionality.

Char_06

10-26-2006, 12:44 PM

I wonder why some "breeders" choose to dock mixed breeds?

Sorry to bring an older thread up but exactly. It was obviously just for looks...and she wasnt a registed breeder was a backstreet gas station breed :rolleyes:

Red Chrome

10-26-2006, 04:34 PM

Well, after having lived with Rotties for years and helping whelp 5 litters over the course of 20 years. We always docked oour rotties tails right after they were born. It is done for show purposes now and personally I don't like the au natrual look althouhg there are some very nice dogs that are natrual, in fact our last litter was from a dog with a tail.

This is a true rottie! Not mine but a friends. He is a german Bred dog with phenomenal working ability!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/Courtney82685/wotan-2.jpg

Muggie'sMum

10-26-2006, 04:56 PM

I also have to admit that I don't like the look of an undocked rottie or an uncropped dane etc.

I find undocked tails "look funny", but I MUCH prefer natural, floppy ears! Both of my danes have natural ears and both dobies I had had natural ears as well. Nothing like seeing those 'wings' (along with jowels!) flopping in the wind as 120ish lbs of pure muscle (and sometimes fat!) comes flying through the air towards you!

planet molosser

10-26-2006, 05:03 PM

Here is a pic of a Central Asian this is the typical dock.
I do prefer them without the appendages .
Note the ears are done too. However I hope they dont ban this practice any time soon they tried too in NY this year with a bill and i was on the tel for days trying to stop it. Thank god it did not get a sponsor.
The woman told me the aide for the congress woman said I was ruining my dogs chances of living as a tripod with a docked tail and that I want to cause the pups pain. She was a young kid who had no idea of what some dock cropped breeds are used for... All she knew was show dogs..

http://centralasianshepherd.homestead.com/centralasianshepherdwinner.jpg

LinkLinx

10-26-2006, 05:33 PM

Personally, I refuse to let "the norm" dictate my personal beliefs. I don't believe in putting a human conception of beauty through an animal, when it involves things such as that. JMHO

I have a natural breed, so I'm not faced with that decision. If I were, I wouldn't do it.

planet molosser

10-26-2006, 05:40 PM

I have a working breed and 3 day old cropping more so than docking same age makes for less injuries and infection.

Also can save their lives when figthing a predator.
I would not do it for show purposes had a working doberman as a sentry guard dog and the criminals did not push it with him all because he had ears and tail. It confused the hell out of many what he was but Satan did not mind the attention.

LinkLinx

10-26-2006, 05:49 PM

I know plenty of guard dogs, working dogs, etc, who are natural. I guess it comes down to being a personal opinion.
And personally, I just don't like it so I don't do it.

planet molosser

10-26-2006, 08:56 PM

Well it comes down to predator control my breed has had tails cropped and docked like this for 4,000 years long before Westminster was created.

When a wolf pack attacks one wolf grabs the ear and pulls the opposite way which allows the throat of the dog to be exposed thus the other wolf rips the dogs throat out.

My breed comes from a part of the world where the nearest Vet is thousands of miles away. When they fight bear , tiger , Hyena etc if they survive.
Their is no antibotics ,the deserts of the Karakum are deadly more with bugs and heat than the predators...

Workings can mean herding, protection work, draft etc.
Livestock dogs even the ones we know of like ASD Kangal Akbash CO CAS Tatra all were either cropped or docked in native lands at one time or another.

One of the reason was for the tail to tell the dogs from the wolves they were bred to hunt back 100 years ago. So the hunter does not shoot the dog instead of the wolf during nite raids.

This crop is done at 3 days so we dont know which pups is going for work vs pet until temp and structure start to show themselves at a later date too late to do this on wholes litters.

Some lines of this breed have NATURAL docked tails thus it tends us to believe years of cropping and docking had its reasons.

IN my pack of 10 if they had ears I would be at the Vet Daily..
Tails few times of year when they would be broken in accidents.

Again not for all working breeds.........

http://www.cassa.us/1alabai9a.jpg

http://www.cassa.us/1586522.jpg

Tracy14048

10-29-2006, 07:38 AM

I have 2 Rotty mixes and I love their tails.... Our 8 year old, Nina is 1/2 rotty 1/2 chow and altough her tail is beautiful curled up like a chow, she tends to bite at the base of it, we are always watching her to make sure she doesn't chew herself raw, if we had been givin a choice we would have had her tail docked just because of it bothering her.... Our 4 1/2 old rotty/ ? mix has not had a problem with chewing at his (knock on wood) we got both dog when they were 7 weeks old and far past the age of docking....... although I love watching them wag their tails I see why rottys are docked......

carlar

10-29-2006, 07:56 AM

Yorkies tails are docked. Since they are so tiny when born (some 2 to 3 oz) I usually wait until they are a week old to do it. When I first started breeding Yorkies the tail was supposed to be docked at the beginning of the lighter colored hair. Now the tail is being left longer and it is a lot harder to figure out how long to leave it. I like the tail left a little longer myself. It is easier to get ahold of when you need to trim the hair around their anus.

Maxy24

01-04-2007, 05:03 PM

personally i think if you have a working dog (that is more than just a pet and actually has work to do) then docking and cropping is a good idea. If not i don't see why it is necessary since it is a surgical procedure (not sure how invasive docking is) but i don't think the dog is too happy about having his ears cut off if it's not necessary. But it"s just my opinion.

Miakoda

01-04-2007, 05:28 PM

Many, many breeds have artificially docked tails: Rottweilers, Dobermans, JRTs, Poodles, Boxers, Corgis (although some are now breeding for naturally bobbed tails), Yorkies..................

I have to say that in the majority of breeders, it's their own personal wants & desires that come into play on then length of tail left. In my line of work, we've noticed a correlation b/n your typical byb gotta have dog that looks "tight" wanting the much shorter docks than those more interested in showing & preservation of a breed.

When we ask our clients how short they want the tails, most of those that don't have a clue & are worried about the coolness factor, for instance want Rottwieler tails basically completely off with it seeming like we'd have to go up into the spine to dock. We NEVER EVER do these so short basically non-existant crops. If the owner doesn't like, we tell them they are more than willing to leave & go somewhere else. We try to do all our crops according to those pictured on dogs that are the ideal breed standard......regardless of what the owner/breeder wants. In docking, you can go too short & drastically increase the chance of infection.

Plus, we will ONLY do docks on pups between 3 & 5 days old. Any older & they must wait until at least 4 months & have it done as a surgical procedure.

skyeboxer

01-04-2007, 05:33 PM

The woman told me the aide for the congress woman said I was ruining my dogs chances of living as a tripod with a docked tail ...

The only work Skye has had to do her whole life is to be my friend so she has her natural ears and given the choice I'd have left her with her tail too though that's neither here not there. What I want to know is...

What did that mean - living as a tripod? Is it to do with the natural balance of ears and tail? Excuse my denseness. The loss of her tail does not affect Skye's balance at all and I've never heard that phrase before.

boxerbaby

01-04-2007, 06:02 PM

I am sure all the "naturalists" will all have a field day with me, every one here seems pretty oppinionated and don't like any ones oppionion that doesn't fall with theirs. I don't like an undocked tail, I can live with natural ears, but not the tail, they look like mutts! If I wanted a mutt I would go to the pound. If they make docking illegal (not that they will ever outlaw declaws:rolleyes: ) I don't think I would ever get a boxer, rottie, ect breed again. I would just go get a mutt or a GSD or some thing like that.

Let the nasty remarks fly! I know there comming.

Jynx

01-04-2007, 06:58 PM

I have aussies, some are born with a natural bob tail, tho not many..I like my docked tailed aussie w/floppy ears *vbg*

my male was docked for a bob tail, maybe because he is out of working lines,
while my female is tail-less.

Alot of agility enthusiasts are now going for the "tailed" aussies as they reason the tail gives better balance.
Diane

StillandSilent

01-04-2007, 07:58 PM

I had no idea Yorkies were docked. I guess I've never actually been close enough to one see.

Shannerson

01-04-2007, 09:19 PM

I hate when government comes in to dictate citizen's lives, including how their animals should look. Next they will tell us what kind of dog food we must feed and at what time and so on. It is scary.
I understand the docking/cropping for work purposes. But if we stop docking/cropping like to afore mentioned breeds (doberman, rottweiler, hunting breeds, etc.) why do we even have a breed standard? We might as well do away with any standard and just breed how each breeder wants to, or maybe as government dictates. Maybe it is cruel to breed the Chihuahua because he is too tiny to properly defend himself and it infringes in his "doggy" rights. I know, I'm reaching. :-)
Now personally, some breeds look fine with or without docking or cropping. But, because these breeds have not been bred to have a specific tail, when we start non docking, we end up with all sorts of different and funny looking tails. A boxer just isn't a boxer without a docked tail.
My dog has a gorgeous tail; he is a large mix, but sometimes I wish it was docked as it swooshes and knocks everything over, including small children.

BostonBanker

01-04-2007, 09:52 PM

But if we stop docking/cropping like to afore mentioned breeds (doberman, rottweiler, hunting breeds, etc.) why do we even have a breed standard? We might as well do away with any standard and just breed how each breeder wants to, or maybe as government dictates.

Huh?? The breed standard should be for traits that are bred into the dog. Not cosmetic alterations made after birth. A two-year old boxer with an undocked tail is the same dog he would be if his tail was docked. Just as well-bred.

Meg has a docked tail because that's what her breed is supposed to have. Yes, her little "nubbin" is adorable - but I wish she had her whole tail. There is just no reason for her not to. (I rescued her as an adult, in case that wasn't clear. I did not dock her tail.)

I'm not sure the government saying "you can't amputate a dog's tail" is really overstepping their bounds.

I don't think tails should be docked, although I don't mind the look of them. I think cropped ears always look odd. I'm a big fan of floppy ears!

bubbatd

01-04-2007, 10:31 PM

dr2little

01-04-2007, 10:37 PM

To me any docking or ear clips are because the owner wants them to look like a pure bred ......yes, were are used to it now . I saw a Boxer with natural ears and tail at the vet's a while ago . I gave him high 5s !! I'm bothered when I see a show Golden with square cut tail hairs ! Love the way they were born .

I have to agree Grammy. I wish I could bring back Amos and Lola's little tails and Lola's expressive ears. At least Amos's ears were left natural. Except for extreme cases where it is absolutely required for a working dog in order to reduce the risk of injury doing the job he was bred to do, I just think it's unnecessary.

JMO of course, but I never had my son "cropped" either...and now at 21 years old, he's glad I didn't.;)

chinchow

01-04-2007, 10:38 PM

I hate when government comes in to dictate citizen's lives, including how their animals should look.

And who are you to say that an animal needs to have a part of it's body taken away?

There's no reason for it to be done these days. The health risks are mostly myth. I have more then enough experience, facts, studies, common sense behind me to prove that. Having a tail doesn't send a dog into damnation.

There's too many loose ends with people who say that certyain breeds need to be docked to save their tails. Just too many.

It's nothing but the owner wanting it done, mostly for looks. And that's a shame.

dr2little

01-04-2007, 10:43 PM

I had a little cocker pup in my last set of classes. At first I honestly couldn't place what was so unusual and so freaking cute about him (although they're all cute), it finally dawned on me....he had a long natural tail. It was truly the cutest little cocker I'd ever seen, he just looked whole and right, and boy did he wag that tail....the whole glorious thing.:)

Zoom

01-04-2007, 10:47 PM

Shannerson does have a point though. When you throw in a trait that has been ignored for countless years, what do you judge as the "proper" version? Ears are easy enough, but there are huge tail variations. I'm mean, just in Aussies you can have a naturabl bobtail, a full tail, or a tail that is anywhere in between. What is proper, then? What version of that tail makes for a better specimen of the breed? How do you judge that?

And then what...we will further narrow gene pools that are already too restricted. We've heard the speculation that the Doberman might go extinct in the next 25 or so years because of all the problems already in the breed. So what happens when we take out a huge chunk of healthy breeding stock because they don't have the new tail requirements? It's the same for all the tradtionally docked breeds...the number of dogs that would be disqualified will be huge and I think a terrible hindrance on all future breeding plans.

bubbatd

01-04-2007, 10:56 PM

LOL!! Dr2.... I did have my son " docked " ....almost 50 years ago ! I've never asked him about it .... but my grandsons were " docked " too .

dr2little

01-04-2007, 11:10 PM

LOL!! Dr2.... I did have my son " docked " ....almost 50 years ago ! I've never asked him about it .... but my grandsons were " docked " too .

This is smelling like a brief hijack but..when I had Jordon, it was during a phase where people were not er..um..docking. I almost had it done anyway because his dad was done, but when they came to get him I couldn't let him go.

The kicker was, when he was 13 I sent him to jewish summer camp due to the superior medical facilities and his fatal allergies and asthma. Long story short, the letters home from camp were more about how he was the attraction in the shower rather than what a good time he was having. Guess I should have told him he'd be the only turtle neck in a camp full of t-shirts.;)

bubbatd

01-04-2007, 11:27 PM

That's a riot !!!!!

01-05-2007, 12:33 AM

BB, wouldn't you rather see the government put more energy into enforcing laws that harm animals more? Abuse, puppy mills, etc.? Look at how poorly those are enforced already. What good is making new laws going to do? Why are people spazzing over procedures that only last a few minutes when people are doing FAR more invasive, more disrespectful and downright cruel things to their dogs?

I'm glad my dogs have tails, but if I got a breed that was traditionally docked, I'd like to have it docked. The ears are optional - I like soft, floppy ears and I don't think that uncropped ears spoil the appearance of the breed.

And going back OT - I never knew that was why sporting breeds had their tails docked like that. My grandpa had a Weim with a full tail and a Weim with that half-docked tail and the difference in their pointing was tremendous. The one with the full tail would go on point but didn't look nearly as obvious and snappy as the docked dog. Some may have been breeding, but the look of the tail seemed to have something to do with it too.

Brandyb

01-05-2007, 08:13 AM

I have two docked dogs, and I had a docked and cropped dog. The docking I can live with, as it really causes no pain to the dog when done at such a young age, but the cropping is another story all together. Lets just say I would never (by my own choice, my hubby is a different matter) get another cropped dog again.
The thing that many seem to forget in this debate is that the tail and the ears of dogs are MAJOR communication signalers, and by altering these, there are quite a few dogs that can have problems with dog on dog communication. I really think that both are unnessessary proceedures, 9 times out of 10, done soley for aesthetic purposes (steming from some historical fables) and nothing else - seeing as how on this side of the world it is very very rare for an undocked/cropped dog to go up against a cropped/docked dog in the show ring and win. For example, why are german shepherds and malinois not docked and cropped when in personal protection jobs, but rotties and dobermans are?
I can understand the crop on some terriers for hand holds, because is you don't grab the base (or thicker) part of the tail when pulling the dog out of the quarry's hole, you risk breaking or damaging the tail. But if your dog is a house pet, or some sort of sport competitor, I really don't see the point, and actually, it is benificial to have a tail in a lot of high speed, agile sports. Tails are used for balance ... if you slow down any film of any animal that has a full tail while running, twisting and turning, you will see just how important the tail balancing is to the over all performance of that animal (ie. the cheetah).
Just my thoughts. :)

RedyreRottweilers

01-05-2007, 09:33 AM

whatszmatter

01-05-2007, 09:44 AM

is docking tails and cropping ears really that big of an issue for some of you that you need to spend your time, and gov't time and money on this?? Aren't there bigger fish to fry? I mean the midwest is still a disgusting pool of puppy mills, what's being done to stop them? Not much.

I personally don't like Docked tails, but who am I to say that someone needs to stop doing it? Its not maiming, its not killing its not abusing the animal. It's done when they are very young. It can hardly be considered even minor surgery. It has no lasting effects on the dog other than how it looks. Its done by professionals and by people that love and care for their animals better than most, so what's the deal? Why does everyone find it so necessary to stick their noses into someone else's business all the time?? I"m sure there are a few things in your own lives that need cleaning up and your energy would be better spent on yourself instead of some one else.

Maxy24

01-05-2007, 10:04 AM

i do not think docking or cropping should be outlawed as this would make people try to do it on there own. I also do not think it is necassary for a house pet to have these done to them. It's sorta like when i was a kid my mom making me have a nose job because she liked small noses better than big ones. As far as docking goes i don't really know how that is done but i understand they di it very young so maybe it does not cause pain i don't know about that one. As far as cropping goes it does not seem like there is any good reason to do it.

Miakoda

01-05-2007, 11:47 AM

Tail docking and ear cropping are the first footholds for ARistas.

Next comes mandatory spay neuter and BSL restricting or eliminating certain breeds. Unfortunately, spay/neuter laws for 'pit bulls' & Rottweilers are in place everywhere & are more common than outright bans

Just another step towards their ultimate goal of no domestic animals.And just another step in gaining popularity for election time.

I will fight for my right to dock, and for the right of others to crop if they so desire, until my last breath.

The government has NO BUSINESS meddling in my personal dog affairs.So true!

I'll fight too. ;)

chinchow

01-05-2007, 01:59 PM

Oh the cosmetology!!

BostonBanker

01-05-2007, 02:12 PM

BB, wouldn't you rather see the government put more energy into enforcing laws that harm animals more? Abuse, puppy mills, etc.? Look at how poorly those are enforced already. What good is making new laws going to do? Why are people spazzing over procedures that only last a few minutes when people are doing FAR more invasive, more disrespectful and downright cruel things to their dogs?

Mind you, I never said they should be illegal; I said I don't think they should be done. I really don't get why it is neccessary.

And I'm not sure the government is doing a bang-up job of dealing with puppy-mills anyway. It's not like they are putting a ton of money and energy into that, which would suddenly be withdrawn if docking/cropping were illegal.

I guess I'd like it to be optional for dogs to be done, including show dogs. And then I'd like to see some breeders stop doing it, and win at shows, and therefore make un-docked/cropped the new cool look that gets rewarded.

Of course, I'd like Santa to pay off my credit card bill and my truck payments, too.:lol-sign: Like I said, I don't like it and I don't think it should be done - it doesn't mean it should be illegal.

chinchow

01-05-2007, 02:26 PM

Showing Rottweilers in Europe :) ..... all of them with tails and you have to admit that it's a pretty sight!

I agree! They are absolutely gorgeous, and have a bit more personality. ;) :D

happyhound

01-05-2007, 05:26 PM

http://www.cdb.org/

Council of Docked Breeds website - scroll down some for photos of sporting dogs with damaged natural tails.

My GSP's tail is docked and I wouldn't have it any other way. In the field he is wag-master and if it was natural I'd be dealing with a bloody tail constantly.

Here's another nifty link..
http://www.shorthairs.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3107

~Dixie's_Mom~

01-05-2007, 05:58 PM

I wonder why some "breeders" choose to dock mixed breeds?

Before we knew better, we had a Silky/Yorkie litter, and we had their tails docked because both the Silky Terrier and the Yorkie have docked tails. Our vet docked them VERY short though...I don't really like it, but I don't really care. :p Here's a picture of all three of the dogs tails...

http://www.parazz.com/photos/09120542406_20322.jpg

Left to right:

Lucy-Silky/Yorkie, very short tail.

Dixie-Yorkie, medium tail. (I believe the standard is half).

Zoey-Shih-Tzu, natural tail.

chinchow

01-05-2007, 05:58 PM

chinchow

01-05-2007, 06:00 PM

Our vet docked them VERY short though...I don't really like it, but I don't really care. :p Here's a picture of all three of the dogs tails...

You should care, it may not show in younger age, but in older dogs with tails that are docked wrong, they can easily begin to deveolp sacral arthritis, and that is not a walk in the park for them.

~Dixie's_Mom~

01-05-2007, 06:02 PM

You should care, it may not show in younger age, but in older dogs with tails that are docked wrong, they can easily begin to deveolp sacral arthritis, and that is not a walk in the park for them.
I meant I don't care about appearance. ;) I've never hear of anything like that...do you know of a site I where I could read up on it?

chinchow

01-05-2007, 06:44 PM

I'm not sure of a site for sacral arthritis, but I'm sure you could find information on it by venturing into research on arthritis in general. There are known complications with short dockings.

BTW, just a few links:
http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_4.htm
http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_17.htm
http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_24.htm

happyhound

01-05-2007, 07:57 PM

Happyhound, there's studies that go against the number of damaged tails in undocked dogs.

Think about how many other field breeds are not docked traditionally...and there is no higher damage rate in them than anywhere else. Should we just dock all breeds, because it MIGHT happen? Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?

I frequent several gundog/upland forums and there and people posting photos of English Pointers, Setters, et al. with bloody damaged tails are very common. People posting and looking for ways to prevent and maintain tails during hunting season are common.

Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?

Docks are done at young ages as preventative measures, it's not going to mentally scar them for life. If they've never had a tail, they won't miss it. They won't know the difference. They are not humans--so they surely won't be jealous of tailed dogs.

I agree! They are absolutely gorgeous, and have a bit more personality.

Oh yeah, my dog has plenty of personality. Obviously a TAIL didn't give it to him. :rolleyes:

boxerbaby

01-05-2007, 08:33 PM

Tail docking and ear cropping are the first footholds for ARistas.

Next comes mandatory spay neuter and BSL restricting or eliminating certain breeds.

Just another step towards their ultimate goal of no domestic animals.

I will fight for my right to dock, and for the right of others to crop if they so desire, until my last breath.

The government has NO BUSINESS meddling in my personal dog affairs.

I agree with ya! They should worry about some puupy mill dogs living in filth having more puppies before the last ones are weaned, not worry about a dog having a tail docked.

is docking tails and cropping ears really that big of an issue for some of you that you need to spend your time, and gov't time and money on this?? Aren't there bigger fish to fry? I mean the midwest is still a disgusting pool of puppy mills, what's being done to stop them? Not much.

I personally don't like Docked tails, but who am I to say that someone needs to stop doing it? Its not maiming, its not killing its not abusing the animal. It's done when they are very young. It can hardly be considered even minor surgery. It has no lasting effects on the dog other than how it looks. Its done by professionals and by people that love and care for their animals better than most, so what's the deal? Why does everyone find it so necessary to stick their noses into someone else's business all the time?? I"m sure there are a few things in your own lives that need cleaning up and your energy would be better spent on yourself instead of some one else.

Some people have nothing better to do then worry about other peoples busines and try and force their beliefs and oppinions on others. You don't like docking so there fore you don't do it, that's awesome, but you tell other people what they should do, even better

i do not think docking or cropping should be outlawed as this would make people try to do it on there own. I also do not think it is necassary for a house pet to have these done to them. It's sorta like when i was a kid my mom making me have a nose job because she liked small noses better than big ones. As far as docking goes i don't really know how that is done but i understand they di it very young so maybe it does not cause pain i don't know about that one. As far as cropping goes it does not seem like there is any good reason to do it.

That is a point I was going to bring up. I CAN dock a tail, I also know how to neuter bulls, or remove dew claws. I would rather a vet did it, but being an ol farm girl, I know how. I would too. If I couldn't have my dogs tail done, I would just do it myself. How many others out there would end up doing it, I don't think puppy mill dogs should have some owner just chopping it off them and leaving them in their own filth, a lot more issues will arise then. Atleast I know how it's done. Others don't they will end up just putting an elastic on their dogs tail. That's a better I dea, right?

Oh the cosmetology!!

:rolleyes:

I agree! They are absolutely gorgeous, and have a bit more personality. ;) :D

Yes, all their personality must be in their tail, cut it off and your dog won't have any personality:rolleyes:
I must say, that dog (rotty with the tail) is one of the ugliest mutt wannabes I have ever seen, sorry.

Happyhound, there's studies that go against the number of damaged tails in undocked dogs.

Think about how many other field breeds are not docked traditionally...and there is no higher damage rate in them than anywhere else. Should we just dock all breeds, because it MIGHT happen? Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?

I have seen SO many bloody stumps of broken tails when I worked at the shelter. They repetedly banged the tails on their kennels, it was so sad to see. Some working dogs are kenneled and that is a bigger risk then not. Not to mention what they can do while they are in the fields.
Oh chinchow, who are YOU to tell some one thay can't because you don't? You don't like it don't do it, but you have no bussiness telling some one THEY are wrong because you don't like it.

Mabey some one will think it is more natural for a dog to have balls. They were born with them and some people decided they like a dog better with out the natural balls they came with, mabey it should be outlawed for people to take that body part away from them. That is invasive and changes their personalities. I think some people should worry about whats going on in their own lives and stay out of others.

bubbatd

01-05-2007, 10:02 PM

To each his own ..... people are so used to seeing " perfect " show dogs....they want to duplicate ...... even though they don't hunt or have their dog perform in the areas that ears or tails were docked for a reason . Most want their AKC registered dog to look like one .

chinchow

01-05-2007, 11:07 PM

chinchow

01-05-2007, 11:31 PM

http://www.4rottweilers.com/images/articles/tails3.jpg
http://www.shattermann.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_traini.jpg
Yep, just a bunch of mutt wannabe's huh? Amazing working and show dogs, but really, they are just trying to be mutts.

http://www.united-aussies.de/Aussies/Peppy/HutenIV.jpg
http://www.united-aussies.de/Aussies/Sneaker/sneaker12.01.05.jpg
"Look ma, neither one of us have tail injuries, and we herd!"

I fail to see how a dog that looks they way it was born to look like, looks like anything else. There's too much proof that docking is pointless without actual medical reasoning.

chinchow

01-05-2007, 11:33 PM

http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/breeds/amcocker.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6040/004wagbonecorgis1ssf8.jpg

bubbatd

01-05-2007, 11:44 PM

Spectacular natural spaniel !

happyhound

01-06-2007, 01:54 AM

Chinchow
Why don't you cite your sources for these "studies"?

chinchow

01-06-2007, 03:48 AM

The studies, laws, health risks, pictures, veterinary standpoints are all on the site that I linked to the first three times.

if you bother reading through, you might learn a lot. maybe some ethics as well?

This thread is on docking but I can offer great ones that give good reasons why cropping is useless as well. The health issue argument rarely stands up for anything anymore.

Im sure if a small risk of injury or a pointless tradition ran in your family that stated you needed a body part removed that you were born with just to be accepted, you'd oppose that as well. Just because we're talking about dogs doesn't make it any more admirable.

happyhound

01-06-2007, 04:13 AM

if you bother reading through, you might learn a lot. maybe some ethics as well?

Maybe if your posts consisted of less mindless drivel and attacking folks who disagree with you ... I might just be able to make it through them. You sound like a loony PETA activist in your posts.

boxerbaby

01-06-2007, 04:18 AM

WOW.
NOTICE the wink face at the end of my Rottweiler statement, it was sort of like a play on words. If you didn't catch that, then open your eyes, a lot.

And sorry, but as far as cutting a dogs tail off for tradition, or because it *might* get hurt, doesn't fly with me when there are studies to show that the number of tail injuries did not increase (in traditionally docked breeds, and in mutts) compared to the same amount of the same dogs bred for the same purposes as the ones who were docked in the same study.

Not to mention, I do not need to make my pet look the way i want it to, I'm happy with the way my dogs are. I don't need to take any body parts away so that the rest of society knows what it is. I'm not shallow, I know there are easy simple ways of preventing tail injuries, and I also believe in breaking cruel traditions. Especially considering docking came around because people thought it cured/prevented diseases, HA.

I noticed the ;) Did you notice my:rolleyes:
I couldn't care less if it doesn't fly with you, who are you are you so special I should care?
I am glad you are happy with the way they look great I'm shallow and your not, yippy, you win the award of the day:rolleyes: If you don't like it don't do it, know one said to do it did they? But you ARE telling others not to do it because you don't like it. It would be like me saying that you should be cause I do. Grow up sweety this isn't pre-scool, we don't all have to do what the spoilt brat wants to do.
You don't have any right (any of you) saying I won't do it and it should be out lawed because I don't find any use for it. I don't like it so wah!I am sure there isn't much use for you but no one is doing a way with you.
And yes, those rotts look like a mutt, I can get 2 that look just like that at the pound for about $50 a piece (it would probley do as good in a show too:lol-sign:)

boxerbaby

01-06-2007, 04:22 AM

Brandyb

01-06-2007, 09:15 AM

Wow, this was an interesting conversation on different view points, however, I think some people have taken others statements to mean that they are forcing their opinion ... which really doesn't read like that.
Chinchow, I'm in agreement with you on this. In the years I've been around dogs, I have yet to see a damaged tail from enviroment - behaviour problems, well thats a different story. Lets just think for a minute about wild dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes and other ferral canids. I'm not saying that dogs are the same creatures, but these guys all live in some pretty harsh conditions, and they seem to get around just fine with their tails.
I don't think Chinchow is trying to force her/his (sorry I'm fairly new and don't know many people on here) opinion on everyone, rather just making a case for one side, as some of you are making a case for the other.
However, in my own (researched) opinon i see that many people just like to follow with tradition, and do not like change ... which is fine, sometimes change is hard, and some standards would have to be slightly modified if docking, cropping were banned.
As I said in my previous post, I can handle the dock ... would rather have a full tail, but am not so against that. But the crop, on the other hand, can be rather cruel, and is a full surgery, and I just don't understand why someone would want to put such a young pup through a procedure like that just for looks. I have first hand knowledge of the crop, specifically the medium to long (show) crop of the doberman. Infection can set in, stiches need to be removed, ear infections happen alot due to the lack of air circulation in the ear cannal, depending on how the ears are taped, not to mention the task of taping, trying to get a naturally floppy ear to stand, there is pain afterwards and associated with the proceedure etc. etc. I do realize that some crops are easier, free standing crops than others (ie. the pit/staffie crop or the cane corso crop as opposed to the dane or dobbie crop), but I still see this procedure as unnessessary and somewhat cruel. Not that I'm telling any of you not to do it, just want to reiderate that this is only my opinion.
And a funny fact is, many regular folks think that dobermans (and I would imagine other breeds as well) ears come erect. There are a lot of people ignorant to the cropping proceedure, and I had tons of questions as to why my dobes ears were taped, whats wrong with them, don't they come standing straight up etc etc. Just an odd observation, and I guess may be a reason why a lot of people go along with it because they don't know any different/or better.
Oh well, JMO and not meant to offend anyone. :D

Maxy24

01-06-2007, 01:28 PM

This thread is starting to make me angry watching people go into defense mode over tail docking. In my opinion it should not be outlawed and if you have a working dog it is a good thing to have done if you are worried about injury. If your dog does not work i don't see it as necessary but if you want to dock your dogs tail go ahead. Unless there is a high chance of problems then i don't see huge problems with it but i don't see any reason for it to be done either. There is no benefit in having it done if your dog does not work but there are also very few risks in having it done so it is not a HUGE deal.
Personally i love the look of any dog with a long tail and don't think the Rottie looks like a mutt, he looks like a Rottie with a tail, he does not look like there is anything other than Rottie in him, you don't say OMG look at him even though everything about his body looks like a Rottie he's the size of a Rottie and even has the temperament of a Rottie, look at the size of that tail, there has to be another breed in there somewhere. If all you have to do is put your hand over his tail in the picture and he looks like a purebred again then he does not look like a mutt you just are not used to seeing the natural tail.(i love mutts by the way, would never have anything else).
So unless there are big risks involved or it causes the dog pain then dock all you want.There is no reason to have it done except for that the human likes the look better but as far as i know there is no reason not to have it done except for that the human likes the look or does not feel the need to change their dog.

bubbatd

01-06-2007, 01:46 PM

No need for any name calling . Opinions , are opinions. I doubt if anyone here who has a dog with altered ears or tails will say , gee, next dog I get , I'll let it be natural ....and vis-versus .

MafiaPrincess

01-06-2007, 01:56 PM

I've found unless the standard allows natural and docked you won't find a good breeder who won't dock. If you wanted a puppy, even put down a deposit, and later change your mind, it will be likely hard to sell that un docked puppy. Plus the decision would have to be made so early on.. that a pup could be a show prospect and wasn't docked.

I can see people wanting natural, but unless a breeder doesn't dock ever, it's a possible problem for them to be having to pick one pup for someone so early on.

chinchow

01-06-2007, 03:08 PM

Maybe if your posts consisted of less mindless drivel and attacking folks who disagree with you ... I might just be able to make it through them. You sound like a loony PETA activist in your posts.

Actually, I hate PeTA with a passion. I'm just ethical. And I never once attacked anyone. The question was asked, and I answered, and presented a case for my answer. If that is attacking, everyone in the world should be silenced. Including you. If you do not want to look at the facts, then that is your problem. But do not call the facts "mindless drivel".

I am glad you are happy with the way they look great I'm shallow and your not, yippy, you win the award of the day If you don't like it don't do it, know one said to do it did they? But you ARE telling others not to do it because you don't like it. It would be like me saying that you should be cause I do. Grow up sweety this isn't pre-scool, we don't all have to do what the spoilt brat wants to do.
You don't have any right (any of you) saying I won't do it and it should be out lawed because I don't find any use for it. I don't like it so wah!I am sure there isn't much use for you but no one is doing a way with you.

I'd love to see where I attacked people saying "DONT EVER DO THIS NO DONT YOU'RE IDIOTS". But, if someone ASKS MY OPINION on it, which they did indeed since this thread was not directed at any one person, I will answer, and have reasons for my answer beyond the fact that I "don't like it". Thank you for concerning yourself so highly with me, though.

And yes, if the government finally does outlaw comestic surgery for an ANIMAL, then I have every right just as much as the next person to say it shouldn't be done. And I will if that day comes here.

In my opinion it should not be outlawed and if you have a working dog it is a good thing to have done if you are worried about injury.

Look at all the working breeds in the world, not that many of them are docked. And how do you explain that one herding breed is docked, but another isn't? Just makes no sense. If it were for true working purposes, and there was high injury, then they would all be docked. And unfortunately, some idiots cut off the tails of cattle dogs, who use them as a rudder, because they are afraid the tail will get stepped on, which is just a little weird, since cattle dog tails are not very long, and they do not creep on the ground.

Oh well, JMO and not meant to offend anyone.

I didn't either, and I as you said, was making a clear cut case for my side of this. I don't remember where in the rules it says I'm not allowed to do that. :D

Either way, I presented the information which has actually opened up a lot of minds and made a lot of people realize these procedures are simply for looks, and are in essence unnessecary if not for a true medical reason.

I've owned a couple of docked breeds, and I got some of them from breeders. None of them had their tails cut off. The one dog whos tail I had to have amputated was an APBT, and that was because another dog came right up and started getting aggressive with her, and her tail ended up getting mangled. Even if she were to ever wag it again, it'd have chucnks missing out of it, and nerve damage, and the wounds would probably never heal properly. It was really our only option.

noludoru

01-06-2007, 10:59 PM

Miakoda

01-06-2007, 11:26 PM

I have seen SO many bloody stumps of broken tails when I worked at the shelter.

Hm. Not only have I worked at a busy shelter/Animal Control, but I work at the largest vet clinic in the state (2nd only to LSU Vet School) & I have yet to see all these "many" dogs with bloody stumps for tails. In 5 years of working that this vet clinic, we've only had to amputate 1 tail due to injury from "happy tail syndrome".

And I'm curious, by the sound of your statement you would be for the docking of tails on all breeds?

boxerbaby

01-07-2007, 04:14 AM

Hm. Not only have I worked at a busy shelter/Animal Control, but I work at the largest vet clinic in the state (2nd only to LSU Vet School) & I have yet to see all these "many" dogs with bloody stumps for tails. In 5 years of working that this vet clinic, we've only had to amputate 1 tail due to injury from "happy tail syndrome".

And I'm curious, by the sound of your statement you would be for the docking of tails on all breeds?

Hm. So what? I don't care if you are blind to dogs getting happy tail or not, doesn't make it that I haven't seen many dogs that have gotten it while in our shelters. Are you incinuating that I haven't or some thing?
I am curious how my statement sounds like I would dock all dogs tails. I guess I should have been more specific, I forget the mind level some people are at:rolleyes: Talking about specific breeds, so I am continuing to talk about the same certain breeds, not all of them, are you still following or should I use smaller words for ya?
Dogs with thin, long whip like tails that continuosly wag their tails until they are sore and bleeding, boxers, rotties, ect. But, now that you bring up a good point I would have to say, I would dock any dogs tail that is like that, not only boxers or rotts, but also pitts, danes, labs, ect. Yes I am a cruel person, I would dock almost any dogs tail I owned if it had a tail like that. I would dock a shepherds tail if it as like that too. I wound cause a little pain as a puppy to be sure it didn't get a broken tail, happy tail, ect. I think it is more painful if they end up with an infection and then have to have it amputated as an older dog. I had a shep/dobie mix as a kid, we almost docked his tail, but didn't because he was too old to do it. But, I wish I had, he nocked every thing over with it, had it shut in doors, got it too close to bonfires, got an infection, ect. We finally had a nice healthy tail again only to have it develop a tumur. So I wouldn't do EVERY breed, (DUH) but I would dock most. Just to make people like you PO'ED:rolleyes: I would crop too:D
But that is MY opinion, I can have it, even if you think it is wrong, oh well. you keep your dogs tail and go away, and I will dock my dogs tail and not try to outlaw long stupid looking tails.

Maxy24

01-07-2007, 09:48 AM

Boxerbaby were you serious about cropping ears too.That is more dangerous and painful then docking and is even more unnecessary then docking, which in some cases is necessary. As for cropping goes can people give me any good reason to have that done.

chinchow

01-07-2007, 10:31 AM

There isn't a good reason Maxy. But you can bet money that people will claim it prevents ear infections and that all dogs need it done if they have drop ears.:rolleyes:

boxerbaby

01-07-2007, 11:24 AM

There isn't a good reason Maxy. But you can bet money that people will claim it prevents ear infections and that all dogs need it done if they have drop ears.:rolleyes:

There is two reasons. I like it. I have a right to, until people like you have every thing they don't like out lawed, I will continue to. If I so choose.
I think it looks good on some of them (some times, I will admitt, I would get a rescued boxer already done, instead of cropping my own again) But it is still my choice and right to do so. I don't think any one has a right to say what people can or can't do.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h35/celestialrags/scan0004-1.jpg
He looks fine with cropped easr and a dockede tail. he didn't miss either and still lived an active full life.

noludoru

01-07-2007, 11:38 AM

it prevents ear infections and that all dogs need it done if they have drop ears.:rolleyes:

Of course it doesn't prevent ear infections! My neighbors do Dobie rescue, sometimes having 10 or so Dobermans at their house at a time, and they've had all sorts of ear trouble with both cropped and natural. Although, they did say that the cropped ears were absolute hell to clean because they got dirtier more often. (And yes, I did note the sarcasm.. I just had to speak up)

joce

01-07-2007, 02:10 PM

Chinchow roll your eyes all you want:rolleyes:

My pup came down with an ear infection a week after he came home and he was miserable. three vets couldn't get rid of it. Our first vet suggested removing the inner ear parts so he would not be in pain. He'd be deaf but no pain.

So my new vet said go get him cropped and he'd be fine-guess what-not a single ear infection since. And its not because I couldn't clean his ears or whatever nonscence-he went to the first vet for his ear cleanings and stayed at the other two to try to clear it up and it didn't do a thing.

If I woudln't have gotten him cropped he'd be deaf now. What is so cruel about a short surgery that knocked him out for a day and then he was up and running around like a new dog.

So everyone can say all they want that it isn't for health reasons but your wrong-I'll admitt the majority of the times its not going to make a diffrence but for my boy and some others it sure does!

And it all depends on the type of ear infection. the people across the street form me had to tye their bassets ears up for so many hours a day to let his air out. If it wans't for the ear being so vascular a lot of breeds with the flop probally would be cropped vs getting the inner ear removed.

And another ting I have noticed is a lot of city dogs probally would make it jsut fine but sitting in my vets office one day I saw three dogs come in with bad tails(one had the skin off from road burn or getting it run over-grossest thing I have ever seen-completely the owerns fault though). Dogs work around here-they get injured,for the labs they jsut ahve to deal but you better beleive my dobe won't be waving a tail around waiting for something to hurt it when a minute of squirming at three days old can prevent that.

oc_spirit

01-07-2007, 05:28 PM

I'm with Joce, cropping does prevent ear infections but the breeds that are cropped the reason for cropping started for other reasons and the prevention of ear infections was an added bonus which is why some droopy-eared breeds are cropped and others are not.

As for tail docking, Boxerbaby is right in that many dogs with thin tails do frequently hurt their tails by getting them broken. However I do have to point out that Rotties do not have thin tails at all. Yes their tails are docked but again, for other reasons.

HOnestly if I ever own the appropriate candidates for docking/cropping they WILL get done. My CO's ears will be cropped, my PattStaffs ears and tail will be done etc. WHo kows what I will end up owning throughout my life bt I can garuntee you I will be doing everything I can to make my dog's life a little easier and since a little pain that they wont even remember as pups can save them a lifetime of intermitent (sp?) pain, why not have it done? Of course I will only have it done by someone who knows what they are doing and can provide the proper after-care.

And when I talk about getting a crop, I'm not talking about those looooong show crops. I personally do not like those at all. I'm talking about a nice short working crop even on a Boxer or Dobe.

chinchow

01-07-2007, 07:49 PM

Mmmmmhmm:rolleyes:

Next you'll be saying how much easier they are to care for too.:yikes:

01-07-2007, 08:01 PM

chinchow

01-07-2007, 08:05 PM

What IS it with people that they feel the need to create LAWS against things they personally don't like or support?

If you don't like tail docking, don't dock tails. But don't try to take away the right of ethical breeders to dock the tails on their puppies.

I, for one, do not want the government controlling what kind of dog I can own or what I can do with that dog. There will always be unethical people that will be unkind to dogs, whether there is a law against it or not; but why take away the rights of responsible, ethical dog owners to do what they wish?

And also . . . I have asked this so many times but I never get a freaking answer . . . WHY is this worth fighting over? Why, when there are so many more important issues out there? :(

There are a lot of laws against things deemed unethical, luckily. I don't believe in controlling what type of dog a person owns, but what they do with that dog is not just their business. If the animal is being harmed, it should always become someone else's business who can deal with the problem. And if the government realizes cosmetic surgery for animals is unethical, then good for them for realizing that. And more than just a few can say that is is unethical to do unecessary surgery on an animal, no matter how great the owner is.
And, it's worth debating over, to make people understand why these laws are passed, why people do it in the first place, get both sides of the story, etc. It's not worth fighting over, but a healthy debate is very educational.

01-07-2007, 08:06 PM

People do un-necessary surgery all the time. It's called spaying.

chinchow

01-07-2007, 08:14 PM

I'm not sure how spaying is un-necessary.

The prevention of furture unwanted litters, control of the population, etc seems a lot more important than wanting your dog to look like the one you saw at crufts on tv.

tempura tantrum

01-07-2007, 09:12 PM

I'm not sure how spaying is un-necessary.

In all honesty, it IS unnecessary. It's done for human convenience. It ends the worry of unwanted litters or having male dogs after your bitch when she's in season. Even so, responsible breeders and owners (myself included) house intact bitches all the time, WITHOUT oops litters ever occurring.

I watch my girl like a hawk. I don't let her wander out of sight EVER. And when she's in season, she's even accompanied into my own backyard (Which is fully fenced- six feet high).

chinchow

01-07-2007, 09:17 PM

YOU may watch yours like a hawk, but other people do not. The fact of it is, there are people out there who don't care, and that's why we have problems. So to say that spaying is not necessary all together is living in a lot of denial.

But, this thread isn't about spaying or neutering.

joce

01-07-2007, 09:37 PM

Spays are not needed and you can argue its being lazy to not watch your dog like a hawk-spays do result in death. Only heard of one dog die after reacting to anesthesia form a crop-not even due to the surgery.

Its real cute that you think its funny. IT IS much easier having a dog that can move his head without crying and snapping out. Its also much easier to to afford things without going to the vet every day. :rolleyes: Its also easier not having a deaf dog-But I guess I am horrible for it.

Debates are fun-I was in every debate club at school and your not debating very well-a fact is pointed out to you and you make a smart ass comment-good job.

tempura tantrum

01-07-2007, 09:39 PM

The fact of it is, there are people out there who don't care, and that's why we have problems. So to say that spaying is not necessary all together is living in a lot of denial.

I'm fully aware that the general public is incapable of keeping an intact dog in a safe manner. I am not "living in a lot of denial" as you have suggested.

Read my statement *carefully*- the surgery is TECHNICALLY uneccessary- it is based on HUMAN CONVENIENCE, and not a medical NEED (unless we're speaking about something like pyo). Crops and docks too are based on human convenience/want.

I'm not advocating that people stop spaying and neutering- merely pointing out the fact that altering of pets is done mostly for the convenience of human owners- just as a crop or dock is.

And just as sometimes there ARE cases where spay/neuter is medically necessary- there are also cases where a dock or crop would be medically beneficial as well. Happy tail ISN'T pretty- and often extraordinarily painful. Some cases even resulted in AMPUTATION- which is a FAR bigger deal than a dock.

chinchow

01-07-2007, 10:01 PM

And I'm still wondering why cosmetic surgery is so convenient.

And Joce, kindly stop jumping down my throat. If you actually read my posts, you'll see I have no problems with crops/docks done for ACTUAL medical reasons.

joce

01-07-2007, 10:14 PM

But how would you know its medically needed when there is actually time to do a crop? If byrons would have come up a week later it literally would have been to late-it really almost was when it was done. He has a screwy ear because they were already floppy to long. Looks wasn't really what I was going for but it makes me feel bad sometimes.

And who decides if its medically necessary? The first vet I went to still thought the surgery was better than the crop.So which is better-cropped or deaf,I'll take cropped any day. Do three vets have to say crop or dock or a whole panel? Is there a waiting period?

And then ther eare the people on forums who say you obviuosly jsut didn't know how to clean his ears correctly adn anyone else could handle it.

there is no way to say what is and isn't a medical reason and its all really dependant on the vet.

01-07-2007, 10:44 PM

It's convenient because there is no risk of any tail-related problems. I've seen and HAD dogs with broken tails, which could have been avoided if they had been docked as the breed standard suggested.

This is about what people like. People LIKE a dog with a nonexistant or suppressed sexual drive, they like a dog without the risk of unwanted pregnancy or roaming. A dog that they can be a bit lazier with in terms of supervision. I don't blame them. It's why I'm neutering my dog.

Some people LIKE a dog without a tail. And mind you, there are very few naturally tailless breeds out there that would suit the average family. Some people have working reasons for cropping and docking, sometimes to protect guard dogs. Some have medical reasons and some people, having seen medical problems in dogs of their breed that were NOT docked, choose to do so. Breeders who are dedicated to the preservation and history of their breed will continue to crop and dock because this is part of the breed, APPEARANCE is part of the breed. Do I like it? Not necessarily. But I will fight for people's rights to keep their breeds as they have been.

In terms of stress and pain for the dog, spaying/neutering and cropping/docking are no different. Both are unnecessary, both are seen as inhumane in some countries, and both are done with a complete lack of respect for dogs as living creatues. I don't understand how you can defend one and detest the other when they have the same effect on the dog - modification. The only difference is that you can SEE the effects of one.

The dog does not understand human intentions for a surgery. The dog just knows being put under, and waking up in pain. All this stuff about ethics and what's cosmetic and what's not and what's cruel and what's necessary . . . Dogs don't know that. Dogs are not mentally scarred by these procedures and if done properly, they are not physically affected by them for more than a short period of time after surgery.

chinchow

01-07-2007, 10:54 PM

I don't understand how you can defend one and detest the other when they have the same effect on the dog - modification. The only difference is that you can SEE the effects of one.

And at this point, I suppose I could ask you, and a few others, the same question.

01-07-2007, 11:01 PM

I don't love or detest either, and I'm only defending docking because people want to take away breeders' rights to do so. THAT, I feel, is wrong.

bubbatd

01-07-2007, 11:43 PM

Show breeders will always dock and ear clip as long as AKC approves of it . A Dobe in the show ring wouldn't have any more chance to place than a snow ball in hell with a tail or natural ears .

adojrts

01-07-2007, 11:56 PM

Docking tails at 3-5 days of age is humane compared to having to remove the tail at a much older age, that I wouldn't do unless I had to for medical reasons. As a breeder of Reg'd Jrts that do 'work' in the earth, I will not, not dock the tails. It has nothing to do with the showring or what I like. Jrts tails are docked to prevent the dog from breaking the tail when backing up in a tight earth. It has nothing to do with providing us with a 'handle'. It is for the well being of the working dog. I have had people approach me about an up and coming litter, they don't want the tail dock........too bad, they don't get a pup if they insist on an undocked tail....there is no way at 3 days of age, anyone can judge which pup is going to be the 'keeper', therefore all the pups are done. The pups when docked, don't make a peep, there is no bleeding and btw I do the docking right on my diningroom table. We have not had an infection yet, actually of all the breeders that I know, I've never heard of anyone having trouble).
The day that any Gov. stops BYB's, Puppymills, Animal Cruelity, and selling animals in pet stores........I'll consider not docking or removing dews, until then, nope. It's my business and I know that I am NOT causing ANY harm to my dogs on any level. My working dog that also does agility??? His ave. Yards per Second on course? oh about 5.5 to 6.0, he routinely lays down times as fast or faster than BC's, and often gets Best Run, his lack of a full tail doesn't seem to effect his balance. (his tail is about 5 inches long, he stands 13.25 inches)
Just my opinion
Lynn

Miakoda

01-08-2007, 12:36 AM

The pups when docked, don't make a peep, there is no bleeding

I've done hundreds of tail docks & although I agree that their is very little bleeding (thus the main reason of docking so early on), it is a rarity that the pup is quiet. The puppies whine, cry, & some wail. I'm not going to lie & say they don't. And to say they don't feel pain is foolish & goes right up their with the belief that "pit bulls" are different in that they don't feel pain.

However, once the procedure is done & they are back in their comfy basket with the others, they all normally quiet down save for a few whimpers.

And I'm not fussing in any way, but every state has different laws & many have made home docking illegal....................

adojrts

01-08-2007, 12:48 AM

I've done hundreds of tail docks & although I agree that their is very little bleeding (thus the main reason of docking so early on), it is a rarity that the pup is quiet. The puppies whine, cry, & some wail. I'm not going to lie & say they don't. And to say they don't feel pain is foolish & goes right up their with the belief that "pit bulls" are different in that they don't feel pain.

However, once the procedure is done & they are back in their comfy basket with the others, they all normally quiet down save for a few whimpers.

And I'm not fussing in any way, but every state has different laws & many have made home docking illegal....................

Thank you for saying that I am lying, In my experience the pups have never made a peep when docking the tails, now the dewclaws yep they do.
Thank you again Miakoda

happyhound

01-08-2007, 02:41 AM

Here's another link ...

http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5080

Does have photo of bloody tailed dog in that thread. If you don't want to read it, here are some quotes.

You watch a long tailed pointer after a brace in South Texas brush, and then spend time treating the injury twice a day, then you will understand.

I had pointers that never had the problem, or only rarely. Then I had dogs that would get a bloody tip every time out.

I'll tell ya I wish short tail was the standard on pointers I have two and buy the end of the season its a chore trying to keep them from getting infected.

I know of 3 setters that have required tail amputations because of infections in the bone. I don't know of any pointers, but have seen plenty with chronic bleeding tails.

Sunnierhawk0

01-08-2007, 03:26 AM

First off, I am right there with you Rye, will be fighting to keep my privallage of docking. The idea that you think docking is acutally harmful to the dogs, if done PROPERLY at the correct age is really beyond me.

The people that are so opposed, have you ever SEEN a litter cropped by a professional vet that knew exactly what they were doing? If so, I highly doubt you can sit here and debate this subject. The puppies scream bloody murder for about a mintue, and then the rest of thier life you( or they) would n't know that anything tramatic happened to them.

Honestly, I want to vomit everytime I see a tailed Rottweiler. Some people are trying to get the AKC standard to call for a tail, and *most* of the Rottie community is against this. How can you add a tail to the standard, what will the lenth of the tail be? What will be considered proper carrage of the tail? What is the correct coat of the tail suppose to be( have seen some tailed Rottweilers who tails didn't look like they matched the rest of the dog).

The government needs to go figure out how to help our soilders in Iraq, the homeless, the dieing, the elderly before they start picking apart weather or not its a good or bad thing to crop/dock. I for one am sick of the government sticking its nose in places it doesnt belong.

Say what you will to this post, after reading all the replies I am very disgusted.

Ryan

taratippy

01-08-2007, 03:31 AM

Can someone explain a coupel of things to me please.

Those who say speying isnt necessary for health reasons but cropping is. Why are there no more instances of ear infections here (UK) than where cropping is allowed and do your bitches not get Pyometra? I dont understand how one is necessary, in the instance of cropping, and the other a convenience.

Docking will also be banned in the UK this year by the way.

joce

01-08-2007, 07:34 AM

taratippy there are more instances-I've heard from people on boards complaining. there is no ear infection database. Apparently they are all like my old vet who said its ok lets do surgery. And from what I have hear the real working dogs still get docked anyway because they do break.

And the number of dogs helped by the free air flow isn't something insanely high-BUT it does help some. Why ruin ot for those it does help?

women get uterine cancer but we don't remove the uterus-you have to rember how small the risk of pyrometra really is-I personally don't know any dog thats had it and I know a lot of dogs-do know of one cat though.

and I am in no way against altering-I think the majority of people need to have it done because they can not handle it-but that doesn't mean its not a serioues surgery or it doesn't make the persons life easier because it sure does.

And this study is apparently not from america
"The Swedish German Pointers Clubs breeding council carried out investigations (interviews and questionnaires) during the late autumn of 1990 and 1991 respectively, regarding the incidence of tail injuries on longtailed German Pointers born in 1989.

In the autumn of 1990 when the dogs were 1 - 1.5 years old, 27% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. The investigated group consisted of 44 litters, 299 individual dogs.

In the autumn of 1991 when the dogs were 2 - 2.5 years old, 35% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. In other words, every third German Pointer with a long tail had suffered from tail injuries. "
http://www.cdb.org/sweden.htm

ACooper

01-08-2007, 08:23 PM

First let me say I think docking should only be done by a vet or trained pro along those lines. I have witnessed one litter of pups being docked years ago......about 20 years ago, and each pup was picked up, snipped, let one 'yipe' and a few little whimpers and placed back with mom who comforted it immediately. That was it, that was all. Never another complaint about it....ever.
I can tell you my boys who were circumsized yelled louder and longer than those puppies, and every time it was cleaned there after! Some parents circumsize, some don't. The ones who don't argue: no medical reasons make it necessary, the ones who do argue: religion or cleanliness, who's right????
When they take away rights to dock & crop, what's next on the list???
Do you have a son?? Is he 'natural' or 'docked'????????????

bubbatd

01-08-2007, 08:41 PM

This will be a never ending thread . Tree huggers vs lumber yards . Remember when CA wanted to pass a law that all male dogs should wear pants !!!

ACooper

01-08-2007, 08:51 PM

.....Remember when CA wanted to pass a law that all male dogs should wear pants !!!

Bwahahahaha........I have never heard of that one............perhaps you need a thread to fill us in and see who else know about it!!!

chinchow

01-08-2007, 10:47 PM

Rights to take away body parts...I can't believe that's what is being stated by some.

"I HAVE THE RIGHT to shave off part of my dogs' ears and cut their tails off because of what MIGHT happen, but mainly because it just looks nice, and it's a free country."

What's next? Honestly.
This thread was supposed to be informative, but it can't be, because of opposing viewpoints that go from two extremes and don't seem to land in the middle.
Hopefully the OP read through, got the information they needed, etc.

01-08-2007, 11:54 PM

Obviously you are looking simply at this one issue and not the big picture.

I'm not in full support of cropping and docking. Honestly I don't care either way. But, if you outlaw things like tail docking, you're giving the government the go-ahead to outlaw other things. You are giving them poorly-asserted control over how we breed and raise our dogs.

Have you not noticed that many of the countries that have banned docking/cropping have also banned Pit Bulls and other "high risk" breeds? Somehow I don't see that as a coincidence. But I digress.

When people push laws like mandatory spay/neuter, no tail docking, no chaining etc, I see that as people giving the government complete control, and I don't want that to happen in the U.S.. I don't LIKE the American government and I do NOT want the morons on Capitol Hill (who can't even SPELL "dog" much less understand someone's reasoning for doing something with their dog) dictating what the people can and can't do with their animals.

To me, it's about more than cropping and docking; it's about the government keeping its filthy nose out of responsible dog owners' business. Instead of targeting responsible owners and breeders, I'd like to see something done about the rampant abuse, the puppymills, the things that TRULY harm the animals and cause them to live a miserable existance.

To be honest, I think a lot of things that people do with dogs are disrespectful to dogs as living, feeling creatures. However, if you look at it, that's how man's relationship with dogs has always been. Humans feed dogs and give them a place to live, and in return many people used the dogs whether they were guardians, shepherds, hunters or retrievers. Now dogs are still used, as companions, as fashion accessories, as broodies in order to make money, as well as being guardians/shepherds/hunters. Also, Dogs get modified like crazy by humans as it is - look at the English Bulldog or the Chihuahua. Dogs get the short end of the stick no matter what. Such is their relationship with humans. Cropping and docking housepets really isn't a huge stretch compared to the history of dogs with humans.

I don't agree with chaining dogs, I don't agree with the majority of the population owning dogs like Pit Bulls, I'm even not in complete agreement with things like ear cropping, but I WILL defend these things when outlawing them is proposed, because the more government involvement there is, the harder it will be to own dogs in the future. I love these animals more than any other, and I want them around forever.

I think Grammy is right, this thread will never end and it's gotten too far away from the original question. I'll bow out, my apologies to the OP.

whatszmatter

01-09-2007, 09:32 AM

People should read RD's post twice and think about it.

RedyreRottweilers

01-09-2007, 09:44 AM

DEFINITELY worth seeing twice.

Obviously you are looking simply at this one issue and not the big picture.

I'm not in full support of cropping and docking. Honestly I don't care either way. But, if you outlaw things like tail docking, you're giving the government the go-ahead to outlaw other things. You are giving them poorly-asserted control over how we breed and raise our dogs.

Have you not noticed that many of the countries that have banned docking/cropping have also banned Pit Bulls and other "high risk" breeds? Somehow I don't see that as a coincidence. But I digress.

When people push laws like mandatory spay/neuter, no tail docking, no chaining etc, I see that as people giving the government complete control, and I don't want that to happen in the U.S.. I don't LIKE the American government and I do NOT want the morons on Capitol Hill (who can't even SPELL "dog" much less understand someone's reasoning for doing something with their dog) dictating what the people can and can't do with their animals.

To me, it's about more than cropping and docking; it's about the government keeping its filthy nose out of responsible dog owners' business. Instead of targeting responsible owners and breeders, I'd like to see something done about the rampant abuse, the puppymills, the things that TRULY harm the animals and cause them to live a miserable existance.

To be honest, I think a lot of things that people do with dogs are disrespectful to dogs as living, feeling creatures. However, if you look at it, that's how man's relationship with dogs has always been. Humans feed dogs and give them a place to live, and in return many people used the dogs whether they were guardians, shepherds, hunters or retrievers. Now dogs are still used, as companions, as fashion accessories, as broodies in order to make money, as well as being guardians/shepherds/hunters. Also, Dogs get modified like crazy by humans as it is - look at the English Bulldog or the Chihuahua. Dogs get the short end of the stick no matter what. Such is their relationship with humans. Cropping and docking housepets really isn't a huge stretch compared to the history of dogs with humans.

I don't agree with chaining dogs, I don't agree with the majority of the population owning dogs like Pit Bulls, I'm even not in complete agreement with things like ear cropping, but I WILL defend these things when outlawing them is proposed, because the more government involvement there is, the harder it will be to own dogs in the future. I love these animals more than any other, and I want them around forever.

I think Grammy is right, this thread will never end and it's gotten too far away from the original question. I'll bow out, my apologies to the OP.