Groomers - do you restrain puppies for grooming?

[dr2little]

I'm having a bit of a "discussion" with a local groomer about what is acceptable as far as handling a young puppy when trying to do an initial grooming. I'm talking about puppies under 5 months of age who's coats are in good condition. Just a first bath and tidy, nail trim..etc..to get used to the whole grooming "thing".
Just curious to know what the general consensus is in the grooming community. How far do you go to "get the job done" when dealing with a puppies first grooming experience? What techniques are used to get a pup to hold still while being groomed?
Please be completely honest. I'm not waiting to pounce, I just want to know if I'm totally off the mark and what I can do in my classes to help make the experience better for both pup and groomer.

[Zoom]

I don't actually groom, but I watch our groomers at work. As far as I can tell, they use the normal grooming noose to hold them on the table, then a guiding hand wherever. If the puppy is really squirmy, they might call another person over to help hold the dog still so they don't quick it, but it's not like sitting on them or anything. Just one arm around the chest and one under the belly.

Our grooming room also has windows all along one wall that face the lobby so everyone can see what's going on.

[dr2little]

I had a client call me after going to a groomer the other day with her 13 week old giant schnoodle pup. I know the pup to be a dear little middle of the road kind of pup, great with her kids and very quick to learn.
When she went to pick him up from the groomer, she was told that he was a very dominant pup and proceeded to show her how to "handle" his dislike of nail clipping. She got on the floor next to Duke and held his paw firmly while he proceeded to fight and scream. She kept her grip on him until he calmed down and then praised him and let go. She stressed to my client that it was very important that the pup did not WIN.:yikes:
I was more than a little shocked. When I called the groomer, who I know quite well, she said that this was common practice and that the pup needed to know who was boss.
I have to wonder if groomers are taught about fear imprint stages and desensitizing so that the outcome is not terrorizing a pup. I fully understand that they have a job to do but this was the pups first exposure to grooming.
I told the groomer that I would take her out for lunch and I would show her the research and help her to understand what experiences like this can do to a pup. Believe me, I walked on egg shells and did not make her feel like I thought I had the right to tell her how to do her job. I genuinely want to see if there's a way that groomers/vet tech/trainers can work together to help owners to prepare their dogs for proceedures that might make them uncomfortable. Something has to be done so that everyone can WIN......especially the pup.
I just wanted to know if this was common or was this particular groomer doing something out of the ordinary???

[Zoom]

I can sure ask our groomers!

[PoodleMommy]

Bella (9 weeks old) was groomed the other day, she was a mess, you couldnt see her eyes or feet.

The groomer just cleaned her face and feet for me, Bella was being a bit of a hard patient, so she couldnt get between her toes very well, so she didnt. She grooms Elle as well, so I know she can do the job normally. However, she wont be rough with dogs and especially pups, so she did the best she could for a first trip. I was happy with that, I would rather something not be perfect then you be too rough with my pup.

Elissa

[Sweet72947]

I used to work at a grooming place as a receptionist, and our groomers just used a noose to restrain a dog. If a dog was wiggly, somebody (sometimes me) would hold him so the groomer could do him. If a dog was jumping and thrashing and being totally uncooperative, the groomer would stop trying to do the dog because the groomer wouldn't want to injure the dog or herself. There weren't that many dogs that were so bad they couldn't be finished.

There was one time we had to call the owner to come get her dog half-done because he was biting and thrashing and couldn't be finished. The owner looked at her dog, shook her head, and said "that's sad." as if we should be able to finish a biting, uncooperative dog. Yeah it is sad, sad she couldn't teach her dog to accept grooming!

I digress, though. Some places use a contraption called a "groomer's helper" which is a noose with an extra loop for the back end, it keeps dogs standing up for the groomer.

Edit: Oh yeah, if it was a young puppy, the groomer would just use a loose noose, bath and brush the dog, and just do what the dog would accept so as not to freak out the dog.

[doberkim]

dr2little, with every puppy owner I get in the room, I routinely go over why I want them to spend 5 minutes each day for the first months of the dogs life handling its feet, its ears, and putting fingers in the mouth - all the pupppies let me do it, and I explain that this will male cleaning ears, teeth, and trimming nails much easier later on in life. i also recommend that each client handle their dogs entire body routinely not just to get them accustomed to it (a well socialized dog used to being handled like this is a vets DREAM!), but it also helps them find anything unusual!

[dr2little]

dr2little, with every puppy owner I get in the room, I routinely go over why I want them to spend 5 minutes each day for the first months of the dogs life handling its feet, its ears, and putting fingers in the mouth - all the pupppies let me do it, and I explain that this will male cleaning ears, teeth, and trimming nails much easier later on in life. i also recommend that each client handle their dogs entire body routinely not just to get them accustomed to it (a well socialized dog used to being handled like this is a vets DREAM!), but it also helps them find anything unusual!

I agree doberkim, and most Vets do take the time with puppy clients to do this very important client education. I teach this in my puppy classes too, in hopes that I'm helping groomers and Vets not have to resort to restraining...but it still happens, all too often.
Since I'm replying to you doberkim, would you think that a Vet be offended if a trainer talked to him/her (in a very diplomatic way) about the fact that this method of "winning" with a pup by holding them until they give up, just isn't done anymore, and for good reason. I've watched too many times, puppies in fear imprint stage being horrible frightened all for the sake of a nail clip or minor Vet proceedure. This groomer works closely with a Vet who I've seen use severe restraint with pups and she apparently picked it up from him. His Vet knowledge in her eyes seems to trump my behavior knowledge and I fear offending while trying to help.
I understand that proceedures have to be done and I know that some groomers and some Vets (not all) don't have the time to continue education in behavior, I just wish there was a way to address this without offending other professionals.

[mysilverlining]

When I do a puppy for the first time, I always tell the customer that the most important thing is for the grooming experience to be as pleasant as possible. I let them know that the first grooming is to get the puppy used to the sounds and procedures that are used during the grooming process. This way they learn that they are not going to be hurt and learn to tolerate the process. I let them know that I may not be able to do a full haircut the first time around, and actually discourage it, instead just doing a sanitary, the pads of the feet and in front of the eyes getting them used to the clippers. I also tell them it may take longer than expected since I will work slowly with the puppy. I do use a grooming loop to secure the puppy, along with the groomers helper. The puppy, in this way learns where he/she needs to be, and prevents the puppy from falling off the table (puppies can be very wiggly you know). I'm a mobile groomer, so I'm in the position where I can be totally hands on from beginning to end with no interuptions which works well. I speak softly to the dog, praising when doing well, ignoring the bad behavior if there is any.

One problem, as a groomer, that I have encountered is the owner who wants their puppy to look like its entering a dog show, and are disappointed, or downright upset or angry because something wasn't done, even if it was in the best interest of the dog. This can be very frustrating.

[dr2little]

When I do a puppy for the first time, I always tell the customer that the most important thing is for the grooming experience to be as pleasant as possible. I let them know that the first grooming is to get the puppy used to the sounds and procedures that are used during the grooming process. This way they learn that they are not going to be hurt and learn to tolerate the process. I let them know that I may not be able to do a full haircut the first time around, and actually discourage it, instead just doing a sanitary, the pads of the feet and in front of the eyes getting them used to the clippers. I also tell them it may take longer than expected since I will work slowly with the puppy. I do use a grooming loop to secure the puppy, along with the groomers helper. The puppy, in this way learns where he/she needs to be, and prevents the puppy from falling off the table (puppies can be very wiggly you know). I'm a mobile groomer, so I'm in the position where I can be totally hands on from beginning to end with no interuptions which works well. I speak softly to the dog, praising when doing well, ignoring the bad behavior if there is any.

One problem, as a groomer, that I have encountered is the owner who wants their puppy to look like its entering a dog show, and are disappointed, or downright upset or angry because something wasn't done, even if it was in the best interest of the dog. This can be very frustrating.

This is exactly what I'd hoped that the groomer I was referring to would do. It must be VERY difficult to deal with unreasonable owners who want the perfect hair cut not matter the emotional cost to the pup. What you described is exactly what should be done and is what I was told was her proceedure as well. I'm meeting with her tonight, I really wanted to know if the grooming community found the positive grooming experience as important as we, as trainers know it must be. Thanks for your post. I wish more felt the way that you do.

[RD]

Where I worked, we would not do any "fancy" grooming on dogs under 6 months of age. If we knew that a client had a young puppy, we'd ask them to come in every week just so we could spend about 10 minutes desensitizing the puppy to the noise and sensations of the grooming shop. We put them on the table; turned the clippers on and held the vibrating handle against their body; turned the blow dryer on "low" and dried ourselves so the pup could get used to the noise it makes; handled the feet, ears and face; put them in the bathtub and smeared some kong stuff'n on the side for them to lick while we sprayed water all around them, etc. Once they had a few "social visits" like this, we would do a sanitary trim, clip the nails, do their pads, clean the ears etc. but still didn't do a full haircut until they got older and were comfortable with the basics.

Basically, lots of treats, lots of praise, lots of cuddles and minimal grooming until the pup was comfortable with the entire experience. So many people just toss a pup into a grooming shop and expect it to tolerate all of these strange things being done to it, and then are infuriated when the groomer can't do a good job on the scared, struggling pup. Or, even worse, groomers expect puppies to tolerate it on their first time, and are harsh and mean to the puppies in order to get them to comply. All of the puppies that we socialized wound up happily accepting grooming.

A couple of times we got a puppy that was in DIRE need of grooming (one that got sticky stuff all over him and one that was a pound puppy with dirt and dust caked to her skin) and those ones were restrained and forced to accept a bath and brushing. I didn't agree with how the pups were treated, personally, but I was the apprentice and didn't make the decisions.

[dr2little]

Where I worked, we would not do any "fancy" grooming on dogs under 6 months of age. If we knew that a client had a young puppy, we'd ask them to come in every week just so we could spend about 10 minutes desensitizing the puppy to the noise and sensations of the grooming shop. We put them on the table; turned the clippers on and held the vibrating handle against their body; turned the blow dryer on "low" and dried ourselves so the pup could get used to the noise it makes; handled the feet, ears and face; put them in the bathtub and smeared some kong stuff'n on the side for them to lick while we sprayed water all around them, etc. Once they had a few "social visits" like this, we would do a sanitary trim, clip the nails, do their pads, clean the ears etc. but still didn't do a full haircut until they got older and were comfortable with the basics.

Basically, lots of treats, lots of praise, lots of cuddles and minimal grooming until the pup was comfortable with the entire experience. So many people just toss a pup into a grooming shop and expect it to tolerate all of these strange things being done to it, and then are infuriated when the groomer can't do a good job on the scared, struggling pup. Or, even worse, groomers expect puppies to tolerate it on their first time, and are harsh and mean to the puppies in order to get them to comply. All of the puppies that we socialized wound up happily accepting grooming.

A couple of times we got a puppy that was in DIRE need of grooming (one that got sticky stuff all over him and one that was a pound puppy with dirt and dust caked to her skin) and those ones were restrained and forced to accept a bath and brushing. I didn't agree with how the pups were treated, personally, but I was the apprentice and didn't make the decisions.

Thanks RD, your post is very helpful too. Your's is just another post confirming that it can be done this way. It will make my meeting a little easier, although I'll still be walking on eggshells so as not to offend and turn her off to the idea of change.

[RD]

I think it's a good idea to be careful when talking to her. A lot of groomers really do mean well but they are accustomed to manhandling their dogs in order to groom them. They are set in their ways, I guess, and some groomers get irritated and defensive when people suggest that they try a different approach to grooming. Being gentler and taking things slowly with pups and young dogs means losing precious time and $$$, and some groomers aren't willing to do that. I can understand from their point of view, too. They are paid to groom the dogs, not train them, but a little bit of training in the beginning makes a world of difference for the lifetime of the dog. They're soooo much easier to groom and it is a relief for the groomer to not have to worry about whether or not the dog will snap at having its nails done, scream about getting its ears cleaned, etc.

I am sure that even charging a bit more money to spend more time training and socializing a scared dog or a young pup would be well recieved by a lot of owners. Some, of course, would not go for it (anything to save a buck) but the ones that care about their dog's experience while being groomed will probably love it.

[otch1]

Before opening my own facility, I was the training manager for the obedience program at a #200 dog capacity kennel. The grooming shop was very busy 4 groomers on staff, 2 bathers thruout the week/weekend. Scheduling was "tight" with a quoata to meet by 6pm. Since I groomed for years, while showing, in the beginning of my training career, this kennel would have the "difficult dogs" put on a schedule for me, if my time allowed. These were dogs terrified of clippers, who needed a breed trim, clean feet, clean face or dogs violently protesting nails being done, ect. From my experience with showing dogs, there's rarely a finished (CH) poodle who was a "biter" when the clippers were turned on, or a Ch.Doberman who loses it when the dremel is turned on for weekly nail upkeep. This is because they were properly handled as puppies!! It takes as long as it takes, and in the initial stages of introducing a procedure, you can do great damage to the pup if you are aggressive in your demeanor. One bad experience can set a puppies training back for weeks/months and personally that is not a dog I then want to take to a show and be handled by a judge. While I do want a puppy to respect me, on the table, he has to trust me. Patient handling is the key. Now, I do nails for owners who have in the past, had to have their dogs anesticised at the vets for this. I've done breed trims on Schnauzers, Westies who in the past attacked the clippers. Sent to me for retraining. I've done a weekend clinic for our local grooming school on "Handling and Restaint, yours and the dogs!" lol. Most of the difficult/fearful behavior you encounter in adult dogs while grooming, is due to improper training and improper handling as a puppy. This is not only my opinion as a trainer, but several friends, top show groomers will agree with me. Handle your puppy carefully.

[dr2little]

Before opening my own facility, I was the training manager for the obedience program at a #200 dog capacity kennel. The grooming shop was very busy 4 groomers on staff, 2 bathers thruout the week/weekend. Scheduling was "tight" with a quoata to meet by 6pm. Since I groomed for years, while showing, in the beginning of my training career, this kennel would have the "difficult dogs" put on a schedule for me, if my time allowed. These were dogs terrified of clippers, who needed a breed trim, clean feet, clean face or dogs violently protesting nails being done, ect. From my experience with showing dogs, there's rarely a finished (CH) poodle who was a "biter" when the clippers were turned on, or a Ch.Doberman who loses it when the dremel is turned on for weekly nail upkeep. This is because they were properly handled as puppies!! It takes as long as it takes, and in the initial stages of introducing a procedure, you can do great damage to the pup if you are aggressive in your demeanor. One bad experience can set a puppies training back for weeks/months and personally that is not a dog I then want to take to a show and be handled by a judge. While I do want a puppy to respect me, on the table, he has to trust me. Patient handling is the key. Now, I do nails for owners who have in the past, had to have their dogs anesticised at the vets for this. I've done breed trims on Schnauzers, Westies who in the past attacked the clippers. Sent to me for retraining. I've done a weekend clinic for our local grooming school on "Handling and Restaint, yours and the dogs!" lol. Most of the difficult/fearful behavior you encounter in adult dogs while grooming, is due to improper training and improper handling as a puppy. This is not only my opinion as a trainer, but several friends, top show groomers will agree with me. Handle your puppy carefully.

Thanks Otch1...your preaching to the choir;):hail: , good to know that you feel the same way.
I specifically used this particular groomer because she attended my puppy school with her Golden pup and appeared to "understand" fear imprint and developmental stages in puppies lives. She acutally said that the reason she became a groomer was because she hated the way the industry viewed dogs as dollar signs.
I asked all the questions before using her and of course she gave all of the right answers. Unfortunately, a well respected Vet "explained" to her that puppies need to know that they can't WIN. Such a load of antiquated gargbage but not unlike the philosophies held by many Vets/Techs/Groomers.:mad: Glad to see there are so many that don't feel this way, maybe things can change.
I spend one full 75 minute session in every puppy class going over everything from handling/desentizing and helping owners to prep their dogs for necessary proceedures to minor grooming, nail clipping, teeth brushing, ear/eye/butt cleaning. I need to do more to make sure that pups are not contiunally subjected to unnecessary restraint. I even cover how to talk to the professionals so that their concerns are addressed and their pups are dealt with in an appropriate manor. Owners are often too intimidated to speak up even when they're uncomfortable with what's happening to their pets. It's tough, but when it comes right down to it, it is their dog after all and ultimately they hold the power.
Again, your post just adds to my convictions and my need to do more in both my classes and in trying to help in some way to educate other professionals in the dog industry.

[Boemy]

Unfortunately, a well respected Vet "explained" to her that puppies need to know that they can't WIN. Such a load of antiquated gargbage but not unlike the philosophies held by many Vets/Techs/Groomers.

I don't think that's an antiquicated notion. I know from people who have ferrets that if they start squirming or biting, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER set them down or let them escape from your arms until they've stopped struggling. It's not about "dominating" the animal, it's about showing it, "Hey, guess what? Struggling doesn't make me let go, so just stop. NOT struggling makes me let go." If a ferret finds out that biting, kicking, and scratching makes its owner let go of it, naturally it's going to bite, kick, and scratch whenever it wants to be let go. Same with big parrots, you aren't supposed to flinch or show any sign of pain if they bite you.

Now, I do agree that handling a puppy's feet, ears, etc, every day is the better way. I did that when my dog was a pup and could touch any part of her body, brush her teeth, clip her nails, whatever I needed to do. BUT the groomer cannot be expected to train every puppy who comes into them! That's the owners job.

I think the groomer should have advised the owner to desensitive the puppy by frequent handling, but I don't think the groomer was out of line to work on the puppy's nails like that when it was in her shop.

[dr2little]

I don't think that's an antiquicated notion. I know from people who have ferrets that if they start squirming or biting, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER set them down or let them escape from your arms until they've stopped struggling. It's not about "dominating" the animal, it's about showing it, "Hey, guess what? Struggling doesn't make me let go, so just stop. NOT struggling makes me let go." If a ferret finds out that biting, kicking, and scratching makes its owner let go of it, naturally it's going to bite, kick, and scratch whenever it wants to be let go. Same with big parrots, you aren't supposed to flinch or show any sign of pain if they bite you.

Now, I do agree that handling a puppy's feet, ears, etc, every day is the better way. I did that when my dog was a pup and could touch any part of her body, brush her teeth, clip her nails, whatever I needed to do. BUT the groomer cannot be expected to train every puppy who comes into them! That's the owners job.

I think the groomer should have advised the owner to desensitive the puppy by frequent handling, but I don't think the groomer was out of line to work on the puppy's nails like that when it was in her shop.

I understand the concept but we're talking about a puppy in fear imprint stage. Unfortunately, this notion of WINNING is all to often used for puppies and fearful adult dogs who are uncooperative too. Using this method for either is about the worst thing that one can do. It teaches nothing except that the fear was absolutely justified and makes future experiences even more terrifying.
The groomer was TOTALLY out of line, no question about that at all. What I wanted to know was how common this groomers misconception of proper puppy handling was.:confused: I think that it's absolutely reasonable for a groomer to explain to each puppy owner how to do the work at home to make the next grooming visit more pleasant. After all, they do work with puppies and should understand the consequences that their use of force has on a pu...often for life. It's just plain wrong for anyone to do that to a 13 week old puppy, under any circumstances.

[frogger]

Being a new groomer for only a year I can say that when I opened a new shop I got alot of people who at the former groomers there dogs were treated badly. I have had owners call and say that there dogs won;t sit still for the groomers and hate to be clipped. They are very surprised to find out that I had no problems. I take my time and talk to the dog so he/she feels comfortable while in my care. I have had alot of repeat business because of this. When a new puppy comes in I always tell them to play with there feet so they are used to getting there nails done when they see me the next time. I have one terrier that has her nails done every six weeks and hate it. I have to muzzle her everytime or I will get bit. This last time I was able to do both her back feet without the muzzle. She growled but never tried to bite until I touched her front feet. Even then I was able to pick them up and she didn't snap until I tried to drummel them. I have used clippers to start with and she fought those even more. I don't over load myself either. The most I have done in one day is 6. Some were just baths and nails and some were full grooming's. I usually take about 1 1/2 hrs per dog. I'd rather go slower than try to hurry up and make a mistake. I must be doing something right as I have over 100 repeat customers within 1 year of opening.

[cindr]

Being a new groomer for only a year I can say that when I opened a new shop I got alot of people who at the former groomers there dogs were treated badly. I have had owners call and say that there dogs won;t sit still for the groomers and hate to be clipped. They are very surprised to find out that I had no problems. I take my time and talk to the dog so he/she feels comfortable while in my care. I have had alot of repeat business because of this. When a new puppy comes in I always tell them to play with there feet so they are used to getting there nails done when they see me the next time. I have one terrier that has her nails done every six weeks and hate it. I have to muzzle her everytime or I will get bit. This last time I was able to do both her back feet without the muzzle. She growled but never tried to bite until I touched her front feet. Even then I was able to pick them up and she didn't snap until I tried to drummel them. I have used clippers to start with and she fought those even more. I don't over load myself either. The most I have done in one day is 6. Some were just baths and nails and some were full grooming's. I usually take about 1 1/2 hrs per dog. I'd rather go slower than try to hurry up and make a mistake. I must be doing something right as I have over 100 repeat customers within 1 year of opening.

Hi there: I am happy that you are doing so well in the area of dog grooming. It is hard to find great groomers out there.

I have been in the grooming industry for over 25 yrs now. I have mastered all areas of grooming and most of them show grooms. These grooms are generally hard to do although when you have many pet owners taking the time to listen to the groomer on how to maintane puppy at home things go well.

I do not restrain any of the dogs that I groom. I have a tec next to none and all of the dogs just love coming to me. Mind you when you have the experiance behind you and things go well you will be doing more than 6 dogs per day. I know by my 2nd yr I was grooming 18 dogs per day myself and not any problems arose at any time. All dogs get on the table and off the table in 1/2 hr depending on the groom. It is just fun to know that once you get going and alot more confidence you too will have your hands full. I would start grooming at 7,00 am and done at 1.00 pm. Doggies in and doggies out. All happy and conformed owners too. I am happy that you enjoy your business keep up the good work Cindr

[mysilverlining]

I have a question? 18 dogs by yourself 1/2 hr each? This must mean that you have someone doing the bathing and drying for you? I know that it takes me about a 1/2 to do a cut, but the bathing, drying etc. takes additional time. I'm just curious, because I cannont imagine being able to do that many dogs from start to finish in such a short time.

[dr2little]

I have a question? 18 dogs by yourself 1/2 hr each? This must mean that you have someone doing the bathing and drying for you? I know that it takes me about a 1/2 to do a cut, but the bathing, drying etc. takes additional time. I'm just curious, because I cannont imagine being able to do that many dogs from start to finish in such a short time.


I was thinking the same thing and to be honest I wouldn't want my dog going somewhere that busy not matter how good the groomer is. There are always going to be stressed out dogs coming through the door, with that many dogs in the shop at any given time, I can't think of a more stressful environment.
Not trying to offend but why so many????

[cindr]

I know this confuses many although when you have 30 yrs of training and experiance the grooms are easy and done professionally. As well I have taken courses in the industry as well as Hair styling you have 5 min's for this. 5 mins 4 this and it continues from there.

1) Be organized
2) Have the crates and or cages right beside you
3) Bath tub near by
4) Give yourself a time limit per dog
5) Have the owner ready to pick up doggie when finished as no dogs are to stay in crates or kennels for more than 11/2 hrs. No dogs allowed to stay in crates or cages for longer than that time limit. I feel that it is not fair to the dog or dogs. My Clients love me for this. Their dogs are like my dogs and that is the best transactions for all concerned. Attitude perfection love, loyalty
6) Have your brushes blades and grooming equiptment right at hand with easy access.
No bather no dryer. You do it all and all alone.
Show grooms done to perfection no puppies stressed why well as one leaves another comes in. If two leaves two comes in. So a fully organised well structured facility goes always getting calls and always getting recomendations the tips are great.

[RD]

Heh. Shows what a newbie I am. It took me about 2-3 hours per dog to bathe, blow dry, prep and clip. I also "baby" the dogs, though. lol. I pet 'em and reassure 'em, give them treats and distract them instead of just holding them there and making it unpleasant for them.

I think that's why my mentor got so frustrated with me. I took forever and was too stubborn to be mean to the dogs in order to get them to cooperate.

[cindr]

In all of the yrs of my grooming experiances I have seen and heard it all. I remember having a large Bouvier come into the shop actually two on seperate dates.
Boths dogs a total mess. Both males;

First male comes in full of grease and mattes. I have to strip puppy can't even leave anything on his face. Now this puppy is a fully trained attack dog so we have to be readyfor what ever happens. I take doggie to my grooming area. Said hey boy as I never had groomed him before. So if you know about aggressive trained dogs he gave me the look.

So I start to rub on his back and start playing with him. Okay now this is going to be fun Yogie says. Okay I lift this 140 lb doggie onto my table. start to brush him. The tail starts wagging and the tongue starts licking. Cool now our 1/2 hr of strip off completed. Puppie in bath tub. Puppy gets a medicated bath and a nice cream rinse to boot. so now puppy is back on my table and getting blown dry no dryer cages here. Puppy done and ready to go home.
Receptionist receives her instructions and goes no ****. I said yeah He's done.
We called my boss at the time and they were totally flabber gasted. It takes two groomers to do one dog at that shop and 4 hrs. Why? I do not know!!

Okay Bouvier no 2#

Now this dog I new. The owner had purchased him about 6 yrs before I would recieve the dog for grooming. She at the time was pregnant when we both attended the same dog training course. The dog hated the owner then and go figure she still owned him.

When the owner came into the shop I looked at her and asked how it was going? She said GOING. So do you and the dog get along? She said no He still hates me! I said why did you keep him? She said to keep my husband happy!

Now the owner informed me that the dog had attacked the other groomers and if I could not do the dog not to worry about it. I told her to come back in a hour and a half that her dog would be done.

Okay I take doggie to the doggie runs. I leave him there to see what I was going to have to handle. I go back to the run and I have this 120 lb Bouvier flying and lunging at the door. Okay I would leave. So now I go back 5 min's latter to receive the same reaction. So now I go and get Judy. I ask Judy to go to the back and see if she can get near puppy? Well the dog liked Judy. Hum Puppy does not like heavy people. I then asked Judy to reach down and grab puppies lead open the kennel and I would be on the other side of the door with a muzzle. No sooner did Judy do as I asked and puppy had a muzzle on the dog

Doggie on table; Doggie getting hugs and pats. Talking to doggie. Start to groom him. Leave muzzle on. Now done take puppy to bath tub. bath him and remove the muzzle so I can do his head. Well what do I get but slobering kisses left right and centre. Puppy now on table to dry and all done in 1 hr.
Doggie has full run of the clinic. Playing with groomer and receptionist. Toys flying here and there. Puppy a happy camper.

Owner walks in Doggie sees her runs to me the groomer and begins to growl. Owner states do you want a dog? I said no but you can bring Charlie back any time you want he's fun to do.

[otch1]

Hi there... enjoyed reading remaining posts. Would like to know how your chat with groomer went? Hope everything worked out and you were able to keep her. Again, with puppies, it "takes as long as it takes". As for show clips/breed trims... I didn't want to insult a previous post, but time frames were misquoted, (on certain grooms) and didn't want RD to think she should be finishing a dog this quickly. RD, it doesn't take 30 minutes for a full breed trim/groom (Schnauzer, Westie, Poodle, ect) from bath/start time, then drying time and then clipping and hand scissoring, to going out the door. No bather, or receptionist. It doesn't take 3 hrs (lol) once you're profficient, but certainly not 30 minutes either. It will take you a considerable amount of time to learn to properly hand scissor, do hand-stripping on terriers... it really is an art. Rushing leads to mistakes. For show, we generally can do a bath, dremel and touch up, start time, dried and off the table in a 1/2 hr, but these are "touch ups" (dogs with a pattern already set) and dogs in great shape, no matts. Very different from a groom shop whose predominant client schedule are pet dogs. These dogs take longer and can be much more difficult for a groomer. While being "fast" doesn't mean you're being cruel, and being "timely' is in the best interest of the dog, allow yourself reasonable time frames to properly finish a dog. (Again, not my intention to dispute previous post, I simply thought your response needed further explanation for new groomers) Glad you're enjoying your work. Hang in there... you'll get much faster!

[cindr]

Yes you are right that rushing can cause some issues with some breeds and yes hand scissoring must be an art. The thing is you can end up into problems either way. I just have a tecnique that goes well for me and the clients keep on trucking in. I am not at all knocking any ones grooming and or their tecniques. I am just stating what I have done in the past and what I have done as of today. I like and enjoy grooming I love the show grooms and do them well. So all is fair in LOVE & WAR. Especially with cocker and or schnauzer hair.

P.S Funny story. Had a lady come in with her Poodle. As she dropped Alex off she states to her sister. Hey 'THIS IS WHERE I GET MY DOGS HAIR PERMED'!!!! It takes all kinds!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SummerRiot]

We never retrain any animals.

Practice makes perfect - if you strap them down, throw a muzzle on them without giving them a chance - your just ASKING for more problems when they come back!

Patience is a virtue with puppies :)

If you happen to get a dog in that is just plain rude and snaps at you for no reason or screams and hollers for no reason - then its alright to give them a few times and then a muzzle may go in for the groomers protection.

There is no reason, if you are gentle with a dog for it to turn on you.

[cindr]

We never retrain any animals.

Practice makes perfect - if you strap them down, throw a muzzle on them without giving them a chance - your just ASKING for more problems when they come back!

Patience is a virtue with puppies :)

If you happen to get a dog in that is just plain rude and snaps at you for no reason or screams and hollers for no reason - then its alright to give them a few times and then a muzzle may go in for the groomers protection.

There is no reason, if you are gentle with a dog for it to turn on you.

Yes you have a point. Although no matter how nice you are some dogs have gained an allowed behavior. Which was in the 2nd bouviers case. So what is wrong with taking the dog and placing a muzzle on him for a total of 10 min's? Once he realised that no one was going to hurt him then as stated life was grand. This dog was just like a kid. Got away with bloody murder. That was why the owner had so much trouble with him. As well that was why the dog bit the other groomers. So no I do not feel that I had done anything wrong with doggie. It just took pateince even if the muzzle was on for 10 min's. If I had done something wrong then why did puppy love me so much.

I at that time was working for a Vet that believed that all dogs needed to be tranquilized. Why? Because he was afraid of dogs. Funny as it was. I talked him out of the proceedure. Why? Because I beleive in giving a dog a chance and low and behold the Dr. Was losing money left right and center. Why? Because none of the dogs were getting medicated any more. So yes there are ways that everyone choses to groom. Not every one has to chose and or go by them. It is about evaluating and assessing each individual dog and each individual situation. Just as you do when you take doggie in. You take pup put him on the table and check the dog out. Making sure that the dog can receive the groom the owner wishes. Now if the dog is too matted do you take the time to torture the dog by brushing him out Or do you take the proper methods to demate?

[PoodleMommy]

I think 30 minutes is a little rushed to groom a dog.

You dont mean like a full haircut and everything right?

Where I go it takes about an hour and a half to groom my 7 pound poodle, from start to finish (bath- blowdry).

I have stayed and watched and they never leave the dogs side, they are working the entire time.

However, they do not rush anything...If the dog begins to get agitated they will stop and talk to them for a few seconds.

However, if my dog was done in 30 minutes I dont think I would go back to that groomer.

[SummerRiot]

If the dog is severely matted, then obviously they are shaved as far as need be and then brushed out.

There ARE painfree ways of dematting a dog if its full of matts...You only need scissors, slicker brush and metal comb. Nope - you dont cut them out.. its all technique. You'd need a dog that was able to stand still enough for it though.

We got a little rescue poodle in today and he was SEVERELY matted. He was a whole new dog when he was finished.
He was very good - stood like a good pup on the table. Hed obviously never been groomed before as well. He was nervous, but very friendly and willing to learn.
It took maybe an hour or so to clip and demat what we could, then he was bathed in oatmeal. I didn't use the high velosity dryer on him just because he was such a nervous boy. I just toweled him down then he was dried with a regular dryer, fluffed and then finished. He must have felt SO good aftewards! lol

Cindr - obviously that Bouvier was able to get away with not being brushed from his owner(more then likely) if he thought he had to act aggresive in the beginning of grooming. Normally dogs recognize their groomers and know that they can't get away with something for the second time. Its great that he could simmer down after a few minutes!

There are a select few dogs that come in that only the owner of the store can groom - shes been grooming them their entire lives and they trust her to the max.

[cindr]

If the dog is severely matted, then obviously they are shaved as far as need be and then brushed out.

There ARE painfree ways of dematting a dog if its full of matts...You only need scissors, slicker brush and metal comb. Nope - you dont cut them out.. its all technique. You'd need a dog that was able to stand still enough for it though.

We got a little rescue poodle in today and he was SEVERELY matted. He was a whole new dog when he was finished.
He was very good - stood like a good pup on the table. Hed obviously never been groomed before as well. He was nervous, but very friendly and willing to learn.
It took maybe an hour or so to clip and demat what we could, then he was bathed in oatmeal. I didn't use the high velosity dryer on him just because he was such a nervous boy. I just toweled him down then he was dried with a regular dryer, fluffed and then finished. He must have felt SO good aftewards! lol

Cindr - obviously that Bouvier was able to get away with not being brushed from his owner(more then likely) if he thought he had to act aggresive in the beginning of grooming. Normally dogs recognize their groomers and know that they can't get away with something for the second time. Its great that he could simmer down after a few minutes!

There are a select few dogs that come in that only the owner of the store can groom - shes been grooming them their entire lives and they trust her to the max.

Thank you riot; I appreciate your imput. As far as the Bouv; He just had an allowed behavior at home and it just excalated at the other groomers. The dog was kinda fun at the end. I am not the type of person to push myself on any dog. I just like to take the time and evaluate the situation. This dog never meant to hurt anyone and to be honest with you he was very missunderstood. Not fair to puppy.

Now I do have a few other areas that might interest you. I had a lady come in with her 10 pound cocapoo. She said to me I just can not understand what is wrong with my dog! I asked what she meant? She said the dog has not eaten and or drank anything in 2 weeks. I looked at her thinking in my mind"" Why is the dog at the groomers and not at the Vets? She then states to me I think my dog would feel much better if she had a hair cut. Okay I said we'll see what we can do!!

So I put the little dog on my table, this poor thing was a simple matt. The dog was so thing it was bones and I said you poor soul what has happened to you. Anyhow as I began to groom the dog taking a ten blade along the dogs face. Slowly to be assured. I would end up hitting something. So I stopped the clippers and started to feel around. Low and behold puppy had a elastic band rapped around her mouth. It was so tight that the dogs facial hair had matted up firmly around it. What a mess and the owners should be shot. Now I am PISSED OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So now my main focus for the dog is to get this HUMMMM off of her face with out hurting the dog. I did it very carefully. Once I got the mess off of her I went a got a bowl of water for her. That dog just sat their and drank like she never seen the stuff before. I did strip the girls fur off as it was only fair to her. She had to have felt better. I do know I did confront the owners and I was not to nice about it either.

So yeah alot if the dogs I have done are generally a mess. But with true love and kindness it is amazing what can happen

[SummerRiot]

OMG Cindr! That has got to be one of the most horrible things I've read! Thats just disgusting!! You shouldn't have given the dog back and just called animal control! omg..

What an idiot.. How do you NOT notice that there was an elastic band on the dogs face?

Were there lacerations from the band being there for so long?

Ack.. the poor thing. Yeah if they are a huge mat and you can't do much to start with it.. not much you can save as far as fur goes...

My gawd.. I can't get over that!!

I used to work with a groomer - only for a week lol SHe was VERY abusive to the dogs.. I'm surprised no one reported her..
I only worked along side of her maybe once or twice - completely two faced as well. She'd be all cheery to the dog and the owner at the front office, start pre grooming on a table as SOON as the dog started to walk around to check out its surroundigns on the table she'd take it into the back and "groom" it back there. I'd hear yelps and barks and growls then her scream.. omg it was insane..

[cindr]

OMG Cindr! That has got to be one of the most horrible things I've read! Thats just disgusting!! You shouldn't have given the dog back and just called animal control! omg..

What an idiot.. How do you NOT notice that there was an elastic band on the dogs face?

Were there lacerations from the band being there for so long?

Ack.. the poor thing. Yeah if they are a huge mat and you can't do much to start with it.. not much you can save as far as fur goes...

My gawd.. I can't get over that!!

I used to work with a groomer - only for a week lol SHe was VERY abusive to the dogs.. I'm surprised no one reported her..
I only worked along side of her maybe once or twice - completely two faced as well. She'd be all cheery to the dog and the owner at the front office, start pre grooming on a table as SOON as the dog started to walk around to check out its surroundigns on the table she'd take it into the back and "groom" it back there. I'd hear yelps and barks and growls then her scream.. omg it was insane..

Well I truly wanted to contact animal control. Although my boss at the time did not allow it so I just dealt with the owners one on one and to be honest with you I am not a nice person when some one and or animal gets abused.

Yeah I have dealt with a lot of low lifes in the last 30 yrs I have closed a lot of businesses an started a lot. But the last business took the cake.

We all know that everyone grooms differantly, and with each shop you have to learn their tec's. Well the last one they were totally off the wall. They'd use brushes to smack the dogs grab them by the tail smack them you name it. Well I am a firm believer to allow the dog to do what it needs to. So if puppy feels comfortable laying down while I work with them the so be it.

Well my boss walks over grabs the dog and yanks it up then smacks the dog stating stand. Then looking at me and saying the dog has to stand to be groomed. I looked at her and stated the dog is 15 yrs old it has arthritis and has a hard time doing that. SHE SAID I DON"T CARE YOU WILL GROOM MY WAY OR NOT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!

Okay I said not a problem: Well I needed a ride home and a Officer freind of mine said he'd give me a ride when ever I needed it. So that day I called him, Said He Big Jim Where are ya at. He said right around the corner from your work. I Said I need a ride can you give me one. He said sure. Give me a min!
Well not only two seconds from the call was he there. He would call me back on the phone and say hey what are ya waiting for. Okay I ran out the door. Well I lived a total of 40 min's from the shop and go figure I would be home in 20. For some reason we like to do things fast around here.

I walked in the door and called my boss, she said your home fast! I said yeah that's because I have Cops that give me rides home! Well for some reason I went into work the next day and received my walking papers. Wonder why? Well the humane society walked in before I did. Done!!!! Done < and all said and done. I have a very hard time with abusiers. Don't ever let me catch you but if I do You'll know what real trouble is. I normally get from the boys in blue go ahead do what you have too. Just watch your temper!!!!!!!! No problem. I am not an evil person but I am one that believes that you do not ever hurt ony one especially KIDS AND ALL OF GODS CREATURES> THATS JUST WERE I AM AT Cindr

[letitride]

I dont get it? If this dog was unable to drink water due to a band around her mouth, that had been there long enough to have gotten covered in matts, how could she be alive???

[SummerRiot]

Omg, thats just horrible...

I'm still in college (online right now) taking Policing actually as well as some Canine Behaviour courses.

Its sad how some people done actually think about what the dog is telling you. Dogs speak SOO clearly if you can just learn to recognize their movements.

Gah.. I can't imagine the thoughts of some people who feel the need to smack a dog.

[cindr]

I dont get it? If this dog was unable to drink water due to a band around her mouth, that had been there long enough to have gotten covered in matts, how could she be alive???

Well it did and the story ends there. God was with the dog and for some reason he was sent to me. We had another one come in a few weeks latter.

That pup was a Schnauzer and it had the elastic placed around its neck. When the dog came in it looked like Franken steins dog. Why there were stiches around the dogs neck their kids put the elastic on the dog and did not tell the mom or dad until it was to late that dog almost died. So it only takes common sense not to have this stuff around kids or dogs

[cindr]

I'm having a bit of a "discussion" with a local groomer about what is acceptable as far as handling a young puppy when trying to do an initial grooming. I'm talking about puppies under 5 months of age who's coats are in good condition. Just a first bath and tidy, nail trim..etc..to get used to the whole grooming "thing".
Just curious to know what the general consensus is in the grooming community. How far do you go to "get the job done" when dealing with a puppies first grooming experience? What techniques are used to get a pup to hold still while being groomed?
Please be completely honest. I'm not waiting to pounce, I just want to know if I'm totally off the mark and what I can do in my classes to help make the experience better for both pup and groomer.

When I start off with a young pup: I do these things;

1) I take doggie to the table, I hold puppy gently and stroke him/her.
2) I then take the brush an start to brush puppy on table. If this does not work i take the dog and sit him/her on my lap and begin to brush.
3) If puppy starts to bite me. I just hold my hand there and say Ouch. Puppy generally stops and looks.
4) I then pick up the clippers and start them. Puppy generally freaks. To be expected. So I just run the clipper accross the dogs body. Not the shear end but clipper body. Puppy jumps and pounces around but due to proper patience the dog will eventually relax
5) I then take the clipper and run it slowly accross the dogs face. Puppy generally jumps back and forth. No problem. Just a few small trims to begin.
6) so puppy is brushed and had a bit of the grooming done with both clipper and sissoring. Now puppy gets a bath.
7) Puppy gets fully towel dryed, then we get a dry towel and rap it around puppy. We use a standard clip to hold the towel on. We now take the blow dryer and start drying the face ears and head. We then take the towel an move it down to the other areas that we wish to get dry. Front left leg, right left leg, chest right side left side back side and we know the rest.
8) Then we stop and give puppy a break and a treat for being so good. Leave him for 10 min's and get ready to finish. Generally if the job is done in this fashion puppy would just love you and want to come back each and everytime. Patience love and common sense is the rule.

[frogger]

The dog I groomed today was a mess. She called and asking if she could get in today so her dog could get shaved because they were having a small problem with the fleas. This dog was a cream colored dog when she came in that the owner tried to groom herself and mutilated. When I started to wash the dog because of all the dirt she had a least 200 fleas on her. She was white when I got done and all the fleas were dead. The dogs was severly anemic and skinny. You could feel and see all the bones in her backend and her ribs. She was having problems standing up some of the time. I sent them to get a capstar while I cleaned the dog up. I had one of the humane society ladies come in and I showed her the dog. She said this year is bad for fleas and that they are spending all the money on flea prevention this year. She didn't seem to care that the dog was half starved. I also opening up a roll from natural balance and that dog was eating the plastic she was so hungary. I gave them instructions on what to do with the dog over the next few days so she doesn't get bloat from eating so much. They rescued her from people who were abusing her and I'm thinking there not doing that good of a job either. They come in every week for other items and I can at least keep up with how she is doing. I just felt so sorry for her and pissed off that the humane society didn't seem to care.

[cindr]

The dog I groomed today was a mess. She called and asking if she could get in today so her dog could get shaved because they were having a small problem with the fleas. This dog was a cream colored dog when she came in that the owner tried to groom herself and mutilated. When I started to wash the dog because of all the dirt she had a least 200 fleas on her. She was white when I got done and all the fleas were dead. The dogs was severly anemic and skinny. You could feel and see all the bones in her backend and her ribs. She was having problems standing up some of the time. I sent them to get a capstar while I cleaned the dog up. I had one of the humane society ladies come in and I showed her the dog. She said this year is bad for fleas and that they are spending all the money on flea prevention this year. She didn't seem to care that the dog was half starved. I also opening up a roll from natural balance and that dog was eating the plastic she was so hungary. I gave them instructions on what to do with the dog over the next few days so she doesn't get bloat from eating so much. They rescued her from people who were abusing her and I'm thinking there not doing that good of a job either. They come in every week for other items and I can at least keep up with how she is doing. I just felt so sorry for her and pissed off that the humane society didn't seem to care.

Hey I totally understand the situation. Yes this yr is bad for fleas but not near as bad as last yr. Can you beleive that we spent well over $1700.00 Canadian funds to get our three dogs cleaned up. That did not even included the furniture and stuff we would throw out.

As far as the Humane Society is concerned they look at the situations so much differant than you are I. There is always a benifit of the doubt. So when they respond they do their investigation. They assess as to the best of their knowledge and as to the law. They looked at doggie seen the condituation. They took down the owners information as well. As to the information disclosed to them and received the dog was in a better home than that of the last one. Dog had fleas and the dog was treated for fleas. They then came to the result that no abuse has and was a factor to the dog by these owners.

Now had they not taken the dog in and had it treated, they would have been informed that they had 24 hrs to rectify the situation. The dog must been seen by a Professional let it be a Vet and or a groomer. Thus the latter. You were instructed and paid to clean up the problem. Now if in which they receive a further complaint as to the particular dog. They will again attend as they must follow up on all complaints. The owners must comply with a written veterinarian certificate. To stop all and any further investigation and or removal of any dog. So with that they state it this way. You have to give them a chance.

I know that we look at abuse in such a differant way than most. I remember making complaints against a Gsd breeder here in our town. She would leave the dogs on 5 foot chains no water and or food. dog houses with no floors.

Well the Humane Society would go out and investigate. This was the instructions:

1) Lengthen chains

2) Wash and clean water pails and dishes

3) Get new dog houses.

They had 48 hrs to comply. Well I guess the owner did. Well for that week anyhow. So again as long as their is food avail running water avail shelter avail. Then the situation is secured. I remember talking to the head administer of the Humane Society here. A good freind of mine that has now retired. She stated that they can not proclaim abuse at any time unless it is recognised as such. If the owners feed their dogs pasta that means the dog has been fed! So yes you did the right thing and your feelings are yours as to be honest would as well be mine. But all you can do now is pray for the little love and work with the owners. Cindr

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

I haven't read any of the other posts, but I just wanted to give my 2 cents.

I'm pretty unhappy with the groomer at Petsmart. We took Dixie and Lucy there to get their nails trimmed, and I swear, they could've been dying. Lucy was screaming SOOOO loud. Everyone turned their head *embarassed*. Dixie did pretty good, just a little squirmy, but the lady was really rough with her...:( I was pretty uneasy about the whole thing. ) Dixie is a VERY sensitive dog, and if you look at her wrong she runs and hides under the couch. We have to use REALLY possitive training. The lady was scaring the crap out of her though. She was using this firm voice saying "BE STILL!" and Dixie just looked at me with these scared eyes, and I could hardly take it. I had to turn around (seriously). I come to find out that the reason Lucy was Screaming back there was that the lady had cut her nail WAY to short, and she was bleeding all over! She goes "That's what you get for sqirmming so much." And she puts some quikstop on it! :yikes: I wasn't happy with her at all. The ONLY reason I get the nails trimmed by someone else is because I don't want to cut the quick!!! I'm not going back. The 1st time I went, Lucy got hers trimmed by a different lady, and she was soooo sweet! She went really slow for her, and after each nail she'd say "Good Girl" and give her a good rub. That wasn't the case this last time though, and I mean the LAST time! If I have to go back I'm requesting to have it done by anyone but her. I don't want to be rude about it, but how can I put it nicely? "Sorry, I don't want you to do it because I think you're a psycopath, and I don't want my dog's leg cut off because she's 'Squirmming too much' while you've got scissors in your hand!!!" Jeeze. Anyway, that's all I have to say about my own grooming experience. :D

[ejabarnes]

well i have plenty of playful pups that i groom and for the first session i will not clip i just get them used to the new surroundings of the parlour i will give the dog a treat than proceed if the dog does pull away or go mad just stop give him a rest and carry on i certainly do not force the dog into doing anything especially a youg dog as it will make more nervous next time most owners do not expect the dog to get the full puppy cut on first visit the owner can help by fiddling with feet face etc