Spay/Neuter ALL the time?

[LizzieCollie]

Im just curious if you guys say spay and neuters have to be done 100% of the time?

I agree that they have to be done if your dog can come in contact with dogs of the opposite sex, if they can get lose, for health reasons etc.

But do you ALWAYS have to alter a pet? My first pup was a cockapoo, he was the devil on earth and was not neutered. I truly wonder if neutering would have helped but I think not, he was born with that nasty temperment.

Second dog was a Shih Tzu, she was never spayed because we started showing her, and later in her life she lived in our apartment with NO acess to dogs whatsoever.

My father had a female pit, she was bred twice and then was spayed. The first was a planned litter the second an oops, but thats beside the point.

We rescued two male pups, and one pregnant female, the female was spayed and the males were not.

My mom has a Golden, she is not spayed but she does not come in contact with ANY dog as we live on a highly populated road. Her last heat there were no dogs around until her 18th day of heat and she was very secure.

With my Collie I am still thinking of spaying her. She will not be bred ever but it gives me the chills to think she could die while having a spay procedure. She does not come into contact with ANY dogs except my moms dog and shes female so I dont think I should have to spay her.

Any one else have similar thoughts?

[Saje]

Every time I take an animal in to get spayed/neutered I have a moment where I think 'ick' because it is an invasive procedure and the human equivalent would be rather traumatic. However, I've never, ever not gone through with it. And I've never regretted it. Especially when they are totally find the next day and don't have any qualms about what happened.

Spaying and neutering will save your pets a lot of stress. They won't have to worry about reproducing. They will behave better and therefore annoy you less which means you have a better relationship with your dog.

It significantly reduces the chances of them escaping or climbing fences and getting hurt or killed during breeding season. It helps with their behaviour in regards to marking. The females won't be bleeding all over your house.

And yes, it increases their chances of living longer healthier lives. Any surgery is dangerous but spays are pretty 'routine' and either way you take a risk. I think the benefits of spaying and neutering far out weigh the cons.

[GSDlover_4ever]

It depends on how you control your dogs. I have three intact males (Caza, Neeko, Hondo) and I dont plan on nuetering any of them (unless a problem arrises). I have learned to deal with and enjoy their testosterone. It really is quite simple to avoid an "oops litter". Its really your call and how much control you would have over her.

[Tobysmom]

Mine never comes into contact with females but he's getting neutered anyway as soon as I have the money saved up.

I don't think you always have to do it. If I had a female I would do it for sure because of that bleeding.

[LizzieCollie]

Tobysmom youre dog is absolutely gorgeous! I believe youre on one of my other dog forums and I am always dying for you to post so I can see that pup!

[joce]

My dobes not neutered,probally won't be. He's six now I think. He had a rough time recovering after getting a lump removed when he was younger and I jsut don't want to risk putting him down again. I cna control my dogs,so this isn't bad,but obviously a lot of people cna't stop all the accidental litters so fixing is usually jsut easier for them.

[elegy]

With my Collie I am still thinking of spaying her. She will not be bred ever but it gives me the chills to think she could die while having a spay procedure. She does not come into contact with ANY dogs except my moms dog and shes female so I dont think I should have to spay her.

i don't think anything's 100%, but if your reason for not spaying is concern over anesthesia and surgery, i really urge you to talk to your vet about your concerns and re-evaluate. a routine spay is a pretty low-risk surgery. it's certainly lower risk than a pyometra spay if her uterus were to become infected. it's also lower risk than a c-section if she were to get bred. and then there's the mammary tumor issue- an unspayed bitch is much more likely to develop a mammary tumor than one who is spayed before her first heat, and i want to say close to half of mammary tumors are cancerous (but i could be misremembering that).

i personally would absolutely spay any pet dog i had unless she had some severe complicating health issue. with males it's less black and white for me because the health benefits are not so clear-cut, but i still can't imagine not neutering, though i might consider doing it later than the traditional six months.

[Dani]

If you are commited to supervising your dog, then it may not be necessary to spay or neuter.

I personally think it's in the best interest of the dog to wait until maturity has been reached (2-3 years approx, or later) if you do wish to spay or neuter.

Alternatives, which I hope become more well-known, would be vasectomies and tubal ligations.

[Toller_08]

I don't like to spay young, I prefer to wait until the dog is atleast 18 months old, preferably 2 years or so though. Its a huge responsibility to have to keep an eye on your bitch when she's in season. Plus, having a large dog (with a lot of hair) such as a Collie, it'll be somewhat messy. Just because you don't have friends with intact males, that doesn't mean she's totally safe. Intact dogs will run for miles to find a bitch in season and have been known to jump fences to get at them. Some people can deal with this, some can't. I honestly don't feel that there's a huge risk of something happening while in surgery. I know plenty of dogs (including my own) who've gone through spay/neuter surgeries and all have come out perfectly fine. Neutering most definitely helps behaviour issues in males more often than not, my girls haven't behaved any differently after being spayed though. Some people say it lowers the risk of cancer aswell, and I'm sure its true, but I've known a lot of dogs who were never spayed and lived without ever getting cancer. I don't think thats a huge risk either, my vet told me that spaying/neutering only lowers the risk by about 2 percent. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. Its really up to you, but I do usually advise people to spay/neuter their dogs if they didn't get their dog from a responsible breeder on a breeding contract.

[Saje]

I've seen male dogs bend rebar style fences to get at a female in heat!

[Mordy]

Personally I don't think it's necessary 100% of the time, and certainly not everyone who has an unaltered dog and doesn't compete or breed is irresponsible.

It's very much related to cultural background, which varies from country to country.

For instance, I lived in Germany until 1999, where spaying and neutering dogs is not as common a thing as in the U.S., but unlike here, there isn't as huge of an overpopulation problem due to better breeding practices, more intervention from breed clubs, minimal sales of dogs in pet stores, less of a "throwaway minded" society and so on.

My current dog is the first altered one I've ever owned (in 25 years) and I honestly can't say that managing unaltered dogs is as much of a problem as some people make it out to be, but I guess that very much depends on the responsibility of the owner.

Overall I'm very much pro spay/neuter, simply because there are too many uneducated pet owners out there for whom it is better to not have to deal with unaltered dogs, both in regards to behavior and reproduction.

[RedyreRottweilers]

For me personally, any dog I am not showing or planning to breed, male or female, will be altered as soon as it is appropriate to do so.

It is possible I would leave a retired male show dog intact if he was sought after for breeding purposes.

My bitches are spayed fairly promptly after their time for being bred is over. I'm not exactly sure of my plans where Penny is concerned. At this time I only plan the one litter from her, however, I might like to continue showing her in Breed if she matures well. Unless we are still burning up the show ring, I would likely spay her around age 5 - 6 years of age, and sooner than that if I decide not to show her in the Breed ring any more.

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I think spaying and neutering is important if you plan not to breed your dog and/or show. Why keep them intact just because? Although we know why "most" men don't neuter there males :cool: . I also agree on waiting for the dog to fully mature until you chop anything but more so in the male dogs. I have an intact ACD who just turned 1 and he has been wonderful thus far but sometimes by the time a male turns 2 they can become tougher. If I had a female she would have been spayed already but that's just me. I don't care to deal with heat cycles. I personally prefer males over females ;) . I know how some other countries are about spaying and neutering, I live in Massachusetts and we have a shelter who flies out to Puerto Rico to save street dogs because the country is so over-whelmed with them. The shelter has helped bring awareness to spay/neuter and to help control the population. We bring dogs here to find them homes and there are a few Puerto Rico dogs right here in my neighborhood :D Also, just because your dog isn't around males that can get her pregnant, doesn't mean, like Elegy, said that she is safe from pyometra or mammory cancer. I would get her spayed before anything like that can happen to her :)

[Mach1girl]

Spay/neuter is a good thing, unless of course you have plans for your dog.

Just an ordinary house pet, why not?It would calm them down, and prolong chances of living a full healthy life.

I have not spayed my bitch yet, due to the fact she is training for wp right now(starting) and spaying would reduce her drive greatly. We are battling a heat at the moment, what a mess!!!Lol, but if I were not planning, nor saw any plans in her future, I would spay her.

My males train for WP as well, their harnesses should be arriving this week. So they will not be spayed. My other 3 are altered, as they are older and not worth anything show/performance wise.

As ong as they are a housepet, why not???

[RedyreRottweilers]

I'm just curious what being intact has to do with Weight Pulling?

[Mach1girl]

Since you addressed me...


If you spay/neuter your dog, it decreases the drive that the dogs SHOULD have in order to sucessfully perform in WP..

[OutlineACDs]

Since you addressed me...


If you spay/neuter your dog, it decreases the drive that the dogs SHOULD have in order to sucessfully perform in WP..


It may be just me, but I never have understood that. I have had intact, and s/n males and females and I can say I have never noticed a change in drive. A lot of it has to do with the owner/trainer, some are just better at bringing out and utilizing that natural drive of a dog.

For instance, my intact bitch did not come with tug drive, but since I wanted her to play and enjoy tugging with me I capitalized on her love of food to really help her bring her drive to tug out. She will not yet tug with me everywhere, but she WILL tug with me vigorously every time I ask. (I dont ask her to do it anywhere I think she will refuse her toy.) She has even started accepting a tug toy as a reward for the clicker, which to me was a sign that is at least as rewardin to her as the treats.

Honestly, I will not work her during a heat cycle, she is not 'in the game' while the hormones are flowing. When I decide if I want to breed her again or not she will be spayed asap, to concentrate more on her performance sports.

[Roxy's CD]

I'd just rather not deal with the issues of having unaltered animals, when I don't ever plan on breeding or showing confirmation.

I don't want a female leaving blood trails all over my house (sorry to be so blunt! LOL), nor do I want a male raring to go at every female he sees, especially those in heat. Yes I know with training they're not that bad, but it's something that I shouldn't have to deal with.

I certainly don't think your a bad owner if your pet isn't s/n BUT, I don't see why you wouldn't spay/neuter a pet... I mean it is less hassle...

[RedyreRottweilers]

FWIW, having owned several animals both intact and altered, I never saw any decrease in drive either.

My 4 YO spayed bitch is one of the driviest busiest toughest dogs I've ever had of either sex, and she was spayed at 15 mos.

My 9YO import has been spayed about 18 months, and I've seen no decrease in her drives/guardiness either.

I was just curious.

[SummerRiot]

Honestly, Crosbie is the ONLY fixed dog we have ever had.

BUT - we have ALWAYS had show dogs.

Conformation and Obedience were our training points for our dogs. Therefore, could not be altered.

[bubbatd]

being in the breeding business for many years with Goldens, I never saw a difference with all intact during heats when it was handled properly. In fact the males had to be given permission to mount ! Goldens are woosies .... at least mine were ! None of mine were neutered or spayed except for health reasons. Today it's a different story ....

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Spay/neuter is a good thing, unless of course you have plans for your dog.

Just an ordinary house pet, why not?It would calm them down, and prolong chances of living a full healthy life.

I have not spayed my bitch yet, due to the fact she is training for wp right now(starting) and spaying would reduce her drive greatly. We are battling a heat at the moment, what a mess!!!Lol, but if I were not planning, nor saw any plans in her future, I would spay her.

My males train for WP as well, their harnesses should be arriving this week. So they will not be spayed. My other 3 are altered, as they are older and not worth anything show/performance wise.

As ong as they are a housepet, why not???
It has no affect on them what so ever if they are altered to "proform" it's a bunch of bull and that is usually the way a man would think, not calling you a man of course *wink* LOL :) ! I have a friend who has an altered male GSD who proforms in Schutzhund/protection work and is one of the TOP dogs in his class. Not having his kahunas has no affect. Some of the top drug dogs around are spayed and neutered shelter dogs and they have high drive ;) .

[LizzieCollie]

Im still debating the whole spay or not spay thing. I dont want to spay her as a pup, I would like to wait till a first maybe second heat so she has a chance to mature. I'd have to check prices though, i have NO idea how much a spay procedure costs here, or anywhere else, the few dogs ive owned have never been altered.

BUT since Lizzie is my dog and my dog only Im at a loss right now

[tessa_s212]

I HATE owning intact dogs. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT.

All my dogs will always be spayed and nuetered.

More people need to spay and nueter. If even responsible owners like me have a hard time preventing an oops litter, I can't expect people that don't show or train their dogs to be able to do that.

[tessa_s212]

As for the issue on what age, if my information is correct, it is healthier to spay a dog much earlier than say after a few heats.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

All I know is unspayed females can develop Pyometra, and are also more likely to get Ovarian and breast cancer. Males are more likely to get prostate and testicular cancer. Spaying and neutering deletes the chances of testicular and ovarian cancer as well as Pyometra and greatly reduces the risk of the other cancers. Altering before the first heat cycle greatly reduces the chances even more. That is why I will always always do it. I also do pediatric spay and neuters. What do I care if my dog is slightly bigger or thinner because of it. I will never show or breed so it makes no difference. I will not own purebreds unless rescued and they come spayed or neutered already from the humane society. Defiantely a big fan of pediatric altering though.

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Im still debating the whole spay or not spay thing. I dont want to spay her as a pup, I would like to wait till a first maybe second heat so she has a chance to mature. I'd have to check prices though, i have NO idea how much a spay procedure costs here, or anywhere else, the few dogs ive owned have never been altered.

BUT since Lizzie is my dog and my dog only Im at a loss right now
Collies aren't a very mucular built dog and where you have a female I would spay her before the first heat which is usually around 8 - 10 months. However, if you do decide to wait then I would only let her have one heat cycle but then a spay will also cost you more money usually because they have been in heat and they aren't a puppy anymore.

[RD]

Until I get an intact bitch with intentions to breed her, my Border Collie will remain unaltered. I supervise him and train him well enough that he is not unmanageable. I don't worry about "accidents" with him because I dont give them a chance to happen. If there is a bitch in standing heat in the same area as my dog, he goes on leash.

My Papillon is neutered mainly for health reasons. I was told he would be more willing to eat and may put on weight if he was neutered - he did, because he wasn't stressed out when there were females around. ANY female got him worked up, not just ones in season.

I would definitely spay all bitches I do not plan to breed, but I'm hesitant to neuter a male unless there is a very convincing reason to do so. I have no problems with my intact male, I see no reason to neuter him at this point.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Im still debating the whole spay or not spay thing. I dont want to spay her as a pup, I would like to wait till a first maybe second heat so she has a chance to mature. I'd have to check prices though, i have NO idea how much a spay procedure costs here, or anywhere else, the few dogs ive owned have never been altered.

BUT since Lizzie is my dog and my dog only Im at a loss right now

There are plently of low cost clinics all over the place if money is a little tight. I love the low cost clinics, they are great, they take great care of my pets, do not keep them over night which I hate when vets do that, and they give you pain meds if needed or wanted and then you go home. Plus they don't cost you a fortune.

[Mach1girl]

and you cannot enter your dog in UKC sanctioned shows altered, even for WP. The ADBA allows altered performers, but not UKC.

It DOES make a difference in drive in a real working dog.

[ihartgonzo]

I have seen waaay too many people with unaltered females, who have been impregnated multiple times do to "accidents". I think that is crap. Either you spay/neuter or you watch your dog 24/7. If you don't do either of these things, you are attributing to over-population, period.

I think it's kind of unpractical to say that only people who are super-irresponsible will allow their unaltered dogs to breed... when my Mom was younger, they had a Chihuahua bitch who was very young and going through a silent heat very pre-maturely. This was in the 70's, when spaying & neutering was not a common practice. During a short potty break in the backyard (which, I'm sure all of us allow our pups outside for a while) the nieghbors Lab jumped the fence and bred her, somehow, and they had no idea until it was too late. She died. Because most people live within close proximity of other people's dogs, especially in the suburbs, and have yards that they allow their dogs to roam often, it is not safe to let an unaltered dog outside alone. For instance, my neighbors had a Doberman girl who was not spayed, and she would often dig to get into my backyard when Gonzo was outside because they loved each other (we have a doggy door, so Gonzo does go outside for short periods alone). If he wasn't neutered, that could've meant an unplanned pregnancy easily!

I also think it's pointless, and stressful, to put a dog through the urge to breed if you are not a responsible breeder. Having bunnies really opened my mind up to this! My two boys hated other bunnies, were horrible indoors with marking, and would literally jump the bones of every blanket/stuffed animal/leg in sight!! After they were neutered, allll of these behaviors went away and they were calm & sweet for the rest of their lives. And so much happier! I've experienced the same affect after spaying & neutering dogs AND cats. We had a Himalayan female who, before she was spayed, would literally sit at the door all day wanting to go outside so she could breed! After spaying her, she was a totally content & happy cat. I have only seen the good affects of spaying & neutering. I have also seen unaltered dogs go absolutely ape-shvt! Like, a really intelligent lady brought her in-heat BC to Flyball practice 3 weeks in a row... all of the males on the team are neutered, except for one show/working Dobie. The neutered males could care less about her. The Dobie could not even do recalls, and was a complete wreck the whole time! Like, foaming at the mouth, acting erratic, barking, trying to hump my dog :p... it is not pretty.

But honestly, if you consider yourself responsible enough to watch your dog at all times, never allow it in a situation where ANY strange dog could come in contact with them without supervision, and you're happy dealing with the marking & neurotic behaviors of unaltered dogs - that is awesome! However, NO ONE is perfect and one moment of laziness and just letting your unaltered dog into the backyard for a few minutes alone can easily cause an "oops" pregnancy.

[PWCorgi]

I think that all "pet" dogs should be s/n just to be safe. Why take the chance of a male running away or a female getting pregnant?

Izzy and Frodo were s/n 3 days after their 6 month birthday. I wouldn't say it was normal circumstances though, being littermates and everything. I was a nervous wreck until it was done, worrying about a silent heat and what the incest puppies would look like, lol. If Frodo would even show interest in her rear end I would freak out.

It has been 3 weeks and I already see a difference in Frodo. He seems much more cooperative and willing, although I don't know if that is related to him being neutered or not.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Unless you're an extremely responsible breeder, spay and neuter.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

I do find it odd that no one here mentioned the risks of cancer and Pyometra that they are giving their dogs when they decide to not spay or neuter. I am sure there are some rare risks with anesthesia to do the procedure but it is such a routine thing most vets could probably do with their eyes shut. When the risk of cancer is at hand as a result of not doing it, I will have every animal altered that I ever own. I couldn't imagine putting my animals at that risk.

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I do find it odd that no one here mentioned the risks of cancer and Pyometra that they are giving their dogs when they decide to not spay or neuter. I am sure there are some rare risks with anesthesia to do the procedure but it is such a routine thing most vets could probably do with their eyes shut. When the risk of cancer is at hand as a result of not doing it, I will have every animal altered that I ever own. I couldn't imagine putting my animals at that risk.
I did as well as Elegy ! {QUOTE}"Also, just because your dog isn't around males that can get her pregnant, doesn't mean, like Elegy, said that she is safe from pyometra or mammory cancer. I would get her spayed before anything like that can happen to her"__________________

Unfortunately, it doesn't change people's minds though :rolleyes: .

[LizzieCollie]

I believe a great deal of people have mentioned those risks. I am still fairly new at all this, I have always had females and none ever got cervical/breast cancer or pyo so i didnt even know what it was until recently

[colliewog]

Im still debating the whole spay or not spay thing. I dont want to spay her as a pup, I would like to wait till a first maybe second heat so she has a chance to mature. I'd have to check prices though, i have NO idea how much a spay procedure costs here, or anywhere else, the few dogs ive owned have never been altered.

BUT since Lizzie is my dog and my dog only Im at a loss right now

For my own dogs, I spay bitches once their breeding "time" is over and the males are dependent upon their attitude. For pets, they are altered around 18 mos to allow for proper growth and development (physical and mental). This is what I recommend to my puppy buyers *and it's in their contract not to do it before 10 mos of age, male or female*.

I do recommend that a bitch that is not going to be bred be spayed due to the risk of pyometra. There is a much higher percentage of intact bitches that develop that in relation it breast cancer. (I'm going to jinx myself here, but in my family's 40 yrs of breeding Collies and keeping intact bitches, we've never had one with breast cancer, but have had two with pyo).


FWIW - Collies aren't a muscular breed in the sense of Pit Bull muscle, but if they are allowed to mature and get proper exercise, they can get good muscle tone (my dogs have the thighs of greyhounds!) ;)

[doberkim]

mach, what experience exactly do you have with working dogs, training, and showing a dog to say that their drive diminishes? can you explain that to the multitude of people who show their dogs?

or why at least 50% if not more, of the top dogs in many breeds (including my own) in both agility and obedience - are neutered and spayed?

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

wow I must be tired...sorry I must have missed it. I try to read everything before I post something...sorry bout that, I will blame it on lack of sleep :)

[LizzieCollie]

lol, im with you on that one, im going to bed soon to catch some ZZ's but its dreadfully hot here and the AC broke :(

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

lol, im with you on that one, im going to bed soon to catch some ZZ's but its dreadfully hot here and the AC broke :(


Oh Puerto Rico, I can imagine! What is the temp like? Is it super humid? It was decently nice today, but I consider 80-85 too hot to put up with :)

[LizzieCollie]

Right now its rainy and crappy...lol its so humid because ofall the rain but most of the times its nice and hot, but humid at the same time so its not overwhelming.

I lived in Rochester New York for most of my life and the heat was unbearable, it was hot and dry.

If only I could open the windows, but here you'd better lock yourself up after dark or the gigantic cockaroaches will come eat you! Im terrified of them its gross to live in NY all your life and when you see cockaroaches theyre not even as big as your fingernail but come to puerto rico where a full grown roach is this big:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and they fly!!!!!! eeew im going to stop because im going to have nightmares ugh

[ihartgonzo]

or why at least 50% if not more, of the top dogs in many breeds (including my own) in both agility and obedience - are neutered and spayed?

I totally agree with this. EVERY one of the top Flyball dogs are speutered, as are 90% of the dogs I know in Flyball, Agility & Herding. They definitely do not lack drive!

Similarly, my cousin is a k-9 officer, and all of the dogs he has handled have been speutered and drivey as heck! :)

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I aso know someone who has two male ACD's 1 neutered and 1 intact and both are in schutzund. There is no difference between the drive of the both of them. I hate when people say they can't speuter because of lack of drive especially people who do weight pull activities with there pits. We have enough pitbulls in shelters and that are being poorly bred all over the place so I think that leaving them intact just to pull weight is an excuse to breed them if they are a fantastic puller which I guess is okay :rolleyes: . I can see if you have a male and wait to neuter till 18 months to 2 years to allow proper growth, but saying that a dog has to be intact to proform a job is just not true IMO and lots of others :)

[PWCorgi]

speutered

ROFL! :p :D :p :D

[Mach1girl]

mach, what experience exactly do you have with working dogs, training, and showing a dog to say that their drive diminishes? can you explain that to the multitude of people who show their dogs?

or why at least 50% if not more, of the top dogs in many breeds (including my own) in both agility and obedience - are neutered and spayed?
I haven't a ton of experience, however, I am learning as we speak. Dixie has been training for WP for months now, and the pups are starting. I have attended 2 aadr WP seminars which are taught by professionals, read all their literature and belong to their online group for continuing advice and mentor assistance.
I do know that an APBT that is s/n, shows a great deal of it's lack of drive compared to an unaltered dog in the wp ring.
You show AKC where maybe altering is allowed, the UKC DOES NOT allow altered dogs to show or compete in any sporting event.

Realy, and I dont wanna sound snotty, but lets face it, you need drive to compete in obedience??? Agility??Your agility dog is running through hoops-so to speak.

An apbt in WP depending on its size is pulling weight for a distance on either a sled or wheels in as short of time as possible.....that drive has got to be there for 1500lbs from a dead stop!

[Mach1girl]

And besides, the UKC doesnt allow it unless you just have a house pet...Isn't that what I said isnt that what I said in the beginning??

"Unless you are showing or using for sport, why not??"

I believe that is what I said.

If the UKC doesnt allow an altered dog to be shown or used for sport, then WTF is the argument for??

I simply stated a FACT, so et off the witch hunt and let it be!!!

[summitview]

the UKC DOES NOT allow altered dogs to show or compete in any sporting event.

Wrong. Go to UKCDogs.com and read the rules of each event for yourself.

Realy, and I dont wanna sound snotty, but lets face it, you need drive to compete in obedience??? Agility??Your agility dog is running through hoops-so to speak.

Why are you slinging rocks at sports you don't compete in?

And as for the drive to pull diminishing when you spay/neuter, what a load of horse manure. It's an old wive's tale that is not true in sled dogs and I highly doubt it's true in WP with bully breeds.

[summitview]

I hate when people say they can't speuter because of lack of drive especially people who do weight pull activities with there pits. We have enough pitbulls in shelters and that are being poorly bred all over the place so I think that leaving them intact just to pull weight is an excuse

Ditto.

[Mach1girl]

Ha! Never mind, clearly this is where the "experienced" verses the ones who just "have heard" clash......

But you all go on with your reasons and justifications.

If I want to fix my dogs and compete in an ADBA showw, then this is allowed, as for the rest, if I were to travel to Kalamazoo and want to compete, I couldn't, and the AADR that comes here for competition does not allow..........I couldnt show an altered dog.

To each his own. But I am sorry, I am stickig to this due to what I have learned and followed, the drive is diminished enough that it effects WP.

So like I said, no matter what reason I give or justification I give, you all are going to bash it anyway, simply because you dont like me. But I dont care, the OP doesnt sound as if she is into any kind of showing or work anyways, and I just answered her simple question.

And I am knocking agility and obedience because I have tried it. I love it dont get me wrong, but it doesnt take half of what is needed for a stronger competition. And you know it doesnt.

Im done, continue to bash if you will. This is why I havent been here in awhile, somepeople spend their days playing internet warrior due to lack of social lives, me, I got dogs to work with , property to buy, and kids to raise, a pool to go swim in, the sun to lay in, and a mall to shop.....you know, better things to do.


So, back to your internet war games, have fun, and remember what you momma told you, if ya aint got anything nice to say...................

Oh yeah, only some of you have enough respect for momma to have actually listened to her!!!Lol.

[summitview]

Ha! Never mind, clearly this is where the "experienced" verses the ones who just "have heard" clash......

Yes, it is. :rolleyes:


To each his own. But I am sorry, I am stickig to this due to what I have learned and followed, the drive is diminished enough that it effects WP.

Which dog are you using this as an excuse to keep intact?


Im done, continue to bash if you will. This is why I havent been here in awhile, somepeople spend their days playing internet warrior due to lack of social lives, me, I got dogs to work with , property to buy, and kids to raise, a pool to go swim in, the sun to lay in, and a mall to shop.....you know, better things to do.
So, back to your internet war games, have fun, and remember what you momma told you, if ya aint got anything nice to say...................
Oh yeah, only some of you have enough respect for momma to have actually listened to her!!!Lol.

So because you don't like what you're hearing you decide to attempt to sling mud at us personally? We all have lives, and for many of us - those lives include actually competing with our dogs, doing rescue, and breeding responsibly.

[Mach1girl]

Did I hit a personal nerve summitview??Gee, Im sorry!

Did you not hear me when I said I train my dogs??I am training and in the process of competing....as a matter of fact, Aug 5th and 6th will be a first for wp competition for Dixie and show for the boys.

I am keeping all my dogs intact to show and work them,if they were housepets, Id s/n them as I have my other 3 dogs.

Like I said, got better things to do now, so ba-bye.

[Ashlea]

Mach - I am curious. I have a Border Collie, she is altered and she competes in hearding. She is up to 9 sheep. Now tell me, is she not a "real" working dog? In my opinion there is no more real working dog than a BC. She is the driviest dog I have EVER encountered in my 7 years of dog training. She has been altered since she was 6 months old. It has made no difference at all to her will to work. She drives me mad with her pestering to do things, at 8 years old I have to slow her down so she won't hurt herself.

So I completely disagree that being altered decreases drive, I work with plenty of Manwork dogs who are altered and I have started feild work and all the dogs are altered in that class. I have never seen more drive then them!

[RedyreRottweilers]

The only one who has gotten nasty and defensive here is you Mach1.

[Fran27]

I think nobody knows anything on the subject - frankly. You won't find two vets that agree about the effects on drive, growth etc.

I didn't want to deal with cancer, dogs marking and trying to jump the fence, so I neutered them. I didn't see any difference in their behavior, and I'm quite comfortable with my decision.

Bottom line, it's up to everyone to do what they feel is best - as long as they are responsible.

[elegy]

Realy, and I dont wanna sound snotty, but lets face it, you need drive to compete in obedience??? Agility??Your agility dog is running through hoops-so to speak.

you don't know much about obedience or agility, do you? why does that not surprise me? they require just as much drive as a weight-pull dog. and yes, i'm familiar with all three sports. and no, i don't think a dog needs her uterus to pull well.

my spayed bitch is drivey as could be.

[Mach1girl]

Please, go join some forums and ask further questions regarding "working dogs" as far as apbt and WP. You will find what I say is true, and most everybody agrees. Where do you think I have learned?

I am not saying my word is gospel, but I know what I have learned thus far, and everyone agrees that is totally involved in the sport.

Ask any PROFESSIONAL WP trainer.really......ask them!!And I do not mean pulling in your back yard, I mean for competition. You CANNOT enter an altered dog in WP at the UKC. You cannot show an altered dog in the UKC.

And I DO know about obedience and agility. My Dix has trained for both. Yes, I do agree any typical dog that has been altered shows an amount of drive-in your bak yard or at the beach simply because they can last longer then you can, but overall when it comes down to it, they lack compared to an unaltered dog.
Stop assuming I know nothing because of my history. You haven't a clue what I know. You havent a clue what I do with my dogs, and assume I dont do anything.And that is wrong.If you only knew.............
I think agility and obedience is great..I really do, Im not knocking it.

Besides, this is not about me, you saw my statement to the OP, leave it alone!

[summitview]

I am not saying my word is gospel, but I know what I have learned thus far, and everyone agrees that is totally involved in the sport. Ask any PROFESSIONAL WP trainer.really......ask them!!And I do not mean pulling in your back yard, I mean for competition.

I know a number of Siberian and Malamute breeders that compete in WP and they do not agree. I am in the process of contacting APBT/AST folks I know and asking them as well.

You CANNOT enter an altered dog in WP at the UKC. You cannot show an altered dog in the UKC.

I think you're wrong. I have friends that show altered mixed breeds in UKC performance events. Show me on the UKC site where it says you cannot compete with an altered dog? I looked and couldn't find such a statement: http://ukcdogs.com/HomeDE.htm


Yes, I do agree any typical dog that has been altered shows an amount of drive-in your bak yard or at the beach simply because they can last longer then you can, but overall when it comes down to it, they lack compared to an unaltered dog.

You're just plain wrong here. It's not true in sled dogs, it's not true in herding dogs, it's not true in obedience, agility, flyball, etc. It's not true in weight-pull with dogs I've known and I highly doubt it's true with just your breed.


You haven't a clue what I know.

You certainly are showing us. :rolleyes:

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Please, go join some forums and ask further questions regarding "working dogs" as far as apbt and WP. You will find what I say is true, and most everybody agrees. Where do you think I have learned?

I am not saying my word is gospel, but I know what I have learned thus far, and everyone agrees that is totally involved in the sport.

Ask any PROFESSIONAL WP trainer.really......ask them!!And I do not mean pulling in your back yard, I mean for competition. You CANNOT enter an altered dog in WP at the UKC. You cannot show an altered dog in the UKC.

And I DO know about obedience and agility. My Dix has trained for both. Yes, I do agree any typical dog that has been altered shows an amount of drive-in your bak yard or at the beach simply because they can last longer then you can, but overall when it comes down to it, they lack compared to an unaltered dog.
Stop assuming I know nothing because of my history. You haven't a clue what I know. You havent a clue what I do with my dogs, and assume I dont do anything.And that is wrong.If you only knew.............
I think agility and obedience is great..I really do, Im not knocking it.

Besides, this is not about me, you saw my statement to the OP, leave it alone!
Personally, I have nothing against you and I like everyone on here. I haven't butted heads with anyone but I am assuming you have. I have been in the field of dogs long enough to know that a dog having its utereus or balls don't make it any better than a dog who is fixed and does not decrease drive in events. I do however feel like the majority of pit owners especially the ones who start all of these WP competitions just have a problem with S/N in general especially the men. They must have to be kept intact to breed right? Don't we have enough pits being euthanized everyday? So I just don't get WHY they have to be intact to pull weight when it is not a conformation show to win best of breed. One more question, don't you own 3 pups from your bitches litter? And you are keeping them all intact? Good luck to you, I wouldn't want all that responsibility with mothers, sons, daughters, being intact. Accidents do happen.

[dogstarsleddogs]

I'd also say that altering does NOT affect drive. I think where that might have sprung from is altered males sometimes calm down after altering. (Like Dakota) Or how altering before they're fully grown affects bone structure. (Dont fully physically mature and "bulk out") Aurora was spayed at a pretty young age if I remember right (got her when she was 2), and shesh- that dog can go! She's actually quite neurotic about running to tell you the truth. You never want to walk by her with anything that remotely resembles a rope or harness! Ever see a dog jump over 4 feet wanting to run so bad? Making enough noise you have scream to be heard? Same with Cider. Dakota is altered, and he could pull over 500 pounds if I asked him too. Babylon is also altered, and the only thing affecting him is age. His mind wants to, but his body cant. But whatever, everyone's entitled to thier own opinion.

[doberkim]

I haven't a ton of experience, however, I am learning as we speak. Dixie has been training for WP for months now, and the pups are starting. I have attended 2 aadr WP seminars which are taught by professionals, read all their literature and belong to their online group for continuing advice and mentor assistance.
I do know that an APBT that is s/n, shows a great deal of it's lack of drive compared to an unaltered dog in the wp ring.
You show AKC where maybe altering is allowed, the UKC DOES NOT allow altered dogs to show or compete in any sporting event.

Realy, and I dont wanna sound snotty, but lets face it, you need drive to compete in obedience??? Agility??Your agility dog is running through hoops-so to speak.

An apbt in WP depending on its size is pulling weight for a distance on either a sled or wheels in as short of time as possible.....that drive has got to be there for 1500lbs from a dead stop!

first off, wanna tell the ton of people who own speutered Pits about how their drive diminishes? elegy - has luce lost any drive since she was spayed?

sound snotty? what i see is someone who has dogs that havent competed in ANYTHING (im sorry, but training for a few months) telling those of us who HAVE trained, shown and titled, that our dogs dont need drive? please - if you can honestly think that, you are either dumber than we all thought, or really misguided. you clearly havent ever actually trained a dog with drive to heel, to do anything. what agility and obedience training have you done, to speak about this?

no offence - but coming from a bunch of pittie people (and i know some wonderful ones,but there are also some seriously misguided ones out there) - telling me that a dog needs its balls to pull, is a load of horse crap.

[doberkim]

And besides, the UKC doesnt allow it unless you just have a house pet...Isn't that what I said isnt that what I said in the beginning??

"Unless you are showing or using for sport, why not??"

I believe that is what I said.

If the UKC doesnt allow an altered dog to be shown or used for sport, then WTF is the argument for??

I simply stated a FACT, so et off the witch hunt and let it be!!!

UKC DOES allowed dogs that are neutered and spayed to compete.

you didn't state any fact at all - you stated a very limited opinion that you are trying to pass off as fact. there is a large difference.

[doberkim]

Ha! Never mind, clearly this is where the "experienced" verses the ones who just "have heard" clash......


experienced? just heard? you havent trained or titled in any of the sports you are bashing. all you have done is had one accidental litter and are training your DA dog (that you used to say couldnt do obedience, etc due to this) in weight pull.

so that makes you experienced?


But you all go on with your reasons and justifications.
clearly, as will you.


To each his own. But I am sorry, I am stickig to this due to what I have learned and followed, the drive is diminished enough that it effects WP.
maybe if your dogs had better breeding, this wouldnt be the case. all i know is, i have a neutered male here who has drive coming out of his EARS. enough drive that it impressed a trainer who competes on INTERNATIONAL levels and places in the top three with his dog, on his first meeting of my dog.


So like I said, no matter what reason I give or justification I give, you all are going to bash it anyway, simply because you dont like me. But I dont care, the OP doesnt sound as if she is into any kind of showing or work anyways, and I just answered her simple question.
it has nothing to do with me not liking you. it has to do with the fact that you have limited, if any, experience in training a dog or showing it in any sport, much less the ones youa re talking about. it has to do with the fact that you think your own misguided thoughts SHOULD be fact, and get angry when someone else disagrees.


And I am knocking agility and obedience because I have tried it. I love it dont get me wrong, but it doesnt take half of what is needed for a stronger competition. And you know it doesnt.

no, what i know is that you havent really tried it at all. you havent had a dog with drive heeling next to you. you havent had a dog thats a true worker want to do this day in, day out. you said so yourself on the website you took down, that your dog was too aggressive to even take outside, didnt you, to be around other dogs??

[doberkim]

Did I hit a personal nerve summitview??Gee, Im sorry!

Did you not hear me when I said I train my dogs??I am training and in the process of competing....as a matter of fact, Aug 5th and 6th will be a first for wp competition for Dixie and show for the boys.

I am keeping all my dogs intact to show and work them,if they were housepets, Id s/n them as I have my other 3 dogs.

Like I said, got better things to do now, so ba-bye.


ba-bye, dear. let us know when the next accidental breeding happens, ok?

[elegy]

first off, wanna tell the ton of people who own speutered Pits about how their drive diminishes? elegy - has luce lost any drive since she was spayed?

to be honest, i don't really know. she was spayed the day before i picked her up from the shelter. if she did, well, it couldn't have been much, because she's got tons and tons o' drive. i just wish i could direct and control it better.

and for the record, you CAN pull a speutered dog in UKC. you cannot in ADBA. which is dumb, but, well, it's ADBA....

edited to add: i cannot think why anybody would say obedience doesn't require drive. i can't imagine putting a low-drive dog in a ring surrounded by all kinds of excitement and noise, and then asking them to concentrate and heel off-leash and not get distracted.

[summitview]

A little story on the drive required for obedience and the spay/neuter aspect...

Windy was intact until she was about five (OFA Good, CERF Cleared but I decided not to breed her). She trained and competed in obedience (4H and AKC matches and trials) and was my 4H Demonstration dog for years when I taught classes. It took her six or seven trials to earn her CD. Her only drive is to get the best spot on the couch! She's not your typical Siberian, she has very little drive. I showed her intact and when she was spayed. There was no difference. She finished her title spayed. She just didn't really give a rat's behind about obedience. She did it for me, but she did not have the drive to do it competitively.

I rescued Arthur when he was about two years old. He was already neutered. He got his CD in three straight obedience trials with only a year of training. For his last leg, he earned a 3rd placement over BCs, GSDs and Goldens. People were astonished (Siberians are usually the comedians in the obedience ring). One of the clubs I'm in competes in a tri-county club sanctioned match. It is just for obedience club members and each club fields two dogs per class (Novice, Open, Utility). Arthur was asked to be one of the Novice representatives one year, and we had some tough competition! Arthur has DRIVE, and tons of it. He loves agility as well. He learned obstacles extremely fast. And *gasp* he's been neutered since he was a pup.

[rottnpagan]

I didn't realize an accidental BYBer who learned 'everything there is' on online forums is 'Teh Queen' of all in WP.

Very interesting to know.

[elle]

Yes, I do agree any typical dog that has been altered shows an amount of drive-in your bak yard or at the beach simply because they can last longer then you can, but overall when it comes down to it, they lack compared to an unaltered dog.


This statement alone really makes me wonder if you even understand what "drive" is!

[joce]

AnimalLoverCatRescuer, My vet thinks the risk of any bone cancers far outweighs the risk of testicualr or mammery cancer so when someone says they alter to not worry about cancer that kinda doens't make sence to me.

In my case we have had dogs with bone cancer,not dogs with any mammery or testicular cancers so the bigger danger to me seems to be the bone cancer. When my corgi had her lump on her belly the biopsy didn't even come back with a reccomendation to spay. He said many of the dogs that come in with lumps are not actually ones that are even affected by the dog being fixed or not.

I honeslty think most people should alter there pets. Not many people can 100% say they will not cause an accidental litter and thats always my biggest concern. You have to know if it did happen you would get it taken care of too and not bring more pups into the world. But I also think people should not be told this first heat bs. So many people are convinced if they don't get thier dog fixed right at six months it will die of mammery or testicualr cancer for sure and I don't think thats right. People should really be informed and not jsut fed that line.

About drive I don't really know. I know fixed males that still act like nuttballs when a females around. And my boy generally barely reacts and he isn't fixed. It jsut depends on the dog. I know I asked a while ago if most police dogs were altered but I don't remember if I ever got an answer.

[doberkim]

to be honest, i don't really know. she was spayed the day before i picked her up from the shelter. if she did, well, it couldn't have been much, because she's got tons and tons o' drive. i just wish i could direct and control it better.

and for the record, you CAN pull a speutered dog in UKC. you cannot in ADBA. which is dumb, but, well, it's ADBA....

edited to add: i cannot think why anybody would say obedience doesn't require drive. i can't imagine putting a low-drive dog in a ring surrounded by all kinds of excitement and noise, and then asking them to concentrate and heel off-leash and not get distracted.

it can be done - i did it with bowie :) it wasnt always pretty though - and yes, he did "quit" on me at one point once, but we went back and did better the next time.

jesus, just wATCHING a dog with drive do obedience thrills me - you can tell the ones that just ooze it out of their pores, it gives you chills. and yes, sometimes it makes me so happy that i have even a PORTION of that with rah...


like elle said, i wonder if people actually know what drive IS, or if we are talking about the same thing...

[SummerRiot]

About the "drive diminishing"...

Crosbie was hyper active when he had his "boys" dangling - he was ALWAYS checking the girls out whether they were in season or not..

Since hes been nuetered, the only drive hes lost is his drive for a piece of tail!!
He now focuses on my little sister when she handles him - where as before he had ADD big time.

Hes a WAY better working dog now that hes been altered.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

AnimalLoverCatRescuer, My vet thinks the risk of any bone cancers far outweighs the risk of testicualr or mammery cancer so when someone says they alter to not worry about cancer that kinda doens't make sence to me.

In my case we have had dogs with bone cancer,not dogs with any mammery or testicular cancers so the bigger danger to me seems to be the bone cancer. When my corgi had her lump on her belly the biopsy didn't even come back with a reccomendation to spay. He said many of the dogs that come in with lumps are not actually ones that are even affected by the dog being fixed or not.

I honeslty think most people should alter there pets. Not many people can 100% say they will not cause an accidental litter and thats always my biggest concern. You have to know if it did happen you would get it taken care of too and not bring more pups into the world. But I also think people should not be told this first heat bs. So many people are convinced if they don't get thier dog fixed right at six months it will die of mammery or testicualr cancer for sure and I don't think thats right. People should really be informed and not jsut fed that line.


Hmm ok I should probably look more into that. As I have said before I am much more knowledgable on cats then dogs which I am still learning. I just go by what I have read and heard and talked about with people. I should do a little more research huh? But thank you I will definately look into that. I guess my main concern is from the animal rescue point of view in that I do it so much and always see BYBs and accidental litters. When adopting out dogs in a shelter situation, they will be altered as soon as the vet will do it so it can go to it's new home. So many people just aren't respoonsible enough to get it done and not let the dog get pregnant first. For people purchasing pure breds from breeders, I would hope that a responsible ethical breeder would have some sort of spay neuter agreement or at least talk to the buyers about it.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

About the "drive diminishing"...

Crosbie was hyper active when he had his "boys" dangling - he was ALWAYS checking the girls out whether they were in season or not..

Since hes been nuetered, the only drive hes lost is his drive for a piece of tail!!
He now focuses on my little sister when she handles him - where as before he had ADD big time.

Hes a WAY better working dog now that hes been altered.

That makes sense too, less distractions...

[doberkim]

for the record, the study that involved neutering and bone cancer was NOT every breed - it ONLY involved rotties - and they are one of the most prone breeds to this type of cancer, PERIOD.
its not fair, nor scientifically sound, to apply that study to other breeds- in fact, that type of cancer is virtually unheard of in a dog under 75 lbs - and ive NEVEr heard of a case in a dog thats a smaller breed (like under 40 lbs).

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

for the record, the study that involved neutering and bone cancer was NOT every breed - it ONLY involved rotties - and they are one of the most prone breeds to this type of cancer, PERIOD.
its not fair, nor scientifically sound, to apply that study to other breeds- in fact, that type of cancer is virtually unheard of in a dog under 75 lbs - and ive NEVEr heard of a case in a dog thats a smaller breed (like under 40 lbs).

That is what I was kind of thinking but I didn't want to say anything. I read a few cases but the results were very general. Either certain breeds or only a few tested. For your average rescued pound mutt, I will always alter as early as possible, Can be done at 4 lbs. There may be acceptions for certain purebreds, but I cannot see bone cancer being something that effects every single dog out there from being altered a little early. Maybe more so with big boned dogs or something like great danes...

[doberkim]

i would have to pull the study up, but i believe it was rotties and they only found the difference in male rotties, too.

science can be manipulated to support people - and you need to be careful of that. chris zinks certainly has done the research, but it doesnt mean that chris isn't any more biased. what applies to canine athletes doesnt necessarily apply to pets (ie the under 1/4 of an inch they may not achieve in growth is really not noticeable in most dogs, especially pet owners).

[Mach1girl]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

Wow I don't even know anything about you but you sure have some issues with people disagreeing with you.

[summitview]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.

LOL, I can just hear the valley girl "whatEVERRRR" now. How mature.


I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!! :rolleyes:



If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.

I won't be holding my breath, because you won't find such a statement - because you're wrong.



But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

Would you like some crayons? Or a nap? Or a diaper change? How about a pacifier? You really need to grow up and open your eyes. I feel sad for your dogs that you won't listen to the truth in many respects. They are the ones that will suffer for it.

[elegy]

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.

in conformation, yes. but we're not talking about conformation. we're talking about weight-pull. and it weight pull it doesn't matter what the dog looks like as long as they pull the weight, which means, no, they don't need to be intact.

[doberkim]

in conformation, yes. but we're not talking about conformation. we're talking about weight-pull. and it weight pull it doesn't matter what the dog looks like as long as they pull the weight, which means, no, they don't need to be intact.

and no offense, but can someone who has actually done weight pull tell us how much advanced training is necessary for pulling? as compared to a dog competing in utility obedience, or working towards their MACH?
do the dogs need to know directionals? does the dog work off leash away from the owner? does the dog need to deal with distraction and ignore them? does the dog interact with other dogs and need to ignore them? does the dog need to obey with the owner out of sight?

this isnt to discount the physical nature weight pulling takes, or the training it involves, or the fact that you need to have a dog that will pull even when something isnt moving.


but then comparing that to a dog that must heel off leash, work at a distance from the owner, use scent discrimination, jump, ignore other dogs off leash when th eowner is not present, and work in a situation in which it could easily choose to NOT work and leave the ring, etc - i don't think the two are comparable.


mach 1- can you share with us what you have accomplished with your dogs besides allowing them to accidentally reproduce?

[Mach1girl]

I have heard enough ignorant "cut downs". The remarks about accidental litters has gone far enough!

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)
The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.

Oh and by the way, it depends on the CLUB whether or not the dog can be altered. The club that comes here you cannot have an altered dog for WP, some clubs sanctioned by UKC allow, but alot do not. I found that out. Better to not have them done in case one that does not allow comes to town.

I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

And for the record, Dixie isnt half as aggressive as she once was............I strongly beleive the litter has changed her. She no longer acts a fool like she did. Do I trust her??Hell no! But she is changed enough to compete, and carry on her long line of WP wins in her family.Tis is one reason we got her.

So, again until you heva been there, dont judge me, if any other floosey came here with a similar situation you'd all feel sorry, but since I am who I am , you think I automatically do not know what is going on around me.
Dont forget I have had APBT for over 20 years and have always been highly involved with the breed. I have done rescue, I have attended shows, I have assisted with training, I have attended many obedience and agility classes, and trained my dogs in the areas.
I had never bred, and because of what happened you think you can constantly find every post that I make and turn it on me.
Not mentioning any names, but especially one individual in particular.......
I did not BYB, and I was not risking losing my WP dog due to a spay because of what happened, NOR was I going to tell my husband that the result of his loving gesture was going to be a litter of dead puppies.
So get over it and move on.

[weylyn]

MACH, who are these professionals you speak of? Club requirements aside...What professionals are saying a dog needs its nads or reproductive organs to sustain good drive?

[dogstarsleddogs]

OK, how about this- you show us where you have gotten your info that altered dogs dont have as much drive, and they must be not be altered to compete, and we will all forget everything and drop the topic. Deal Everyone?

[ChiBree]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk. Everytime I've signed that little piece of paper before a spay or neuter I thought "oh that will never happen to me" well.....guess what? I signed that piece of apaper again before her surgery and it DID happen :( Thank god my Vet is good and brought her back :) I think its a personal choice. Do what your heart feels is best for YOU and YOUR DOG. Good luck :)

[summitview]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

SMH. :rolleyes: I at least hope you will watch your dogs better to prevent further accidental litters. It's a pity that you believe the reason you almost lost your bitch was simply because she was under.

[ChiBree]

My beliefs are MY beliefs and what I do is MY choice. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should do - didn't ask. I was addressing the person asking advice and just letting them know my experience.

[summitview]

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

My father was diagnosed with cancer about a year and a half ago. I've been there with him through chemo, surgery, the hair loss, sitting up with him while he cried because of how much pain he was in... My Uncle Tom died from cancer three months ago.

I truly am sorry that you have cancer. I would not wish any type of cancer on anyone.

However, all of that in no way excuses being irresponsible with your dogs and sputtering out misinformation.



I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

What seminars? Which professionals?

[doberkim]

lord, dont tell me now youre falling into the typical BYB excuse of you have (insert any disease here) and thats why you bred... im sorry you have cancer, but it has no reason, and is no excuse, for anything.



And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)

thats great. i have worked dogs up at the open level of obedience. i have trained, titled and shown, albeit of a limited nature due to time and funds (and again, not giving up my dogs for something better). i have had dogs that have wonderful attention, heads up heeling. knew heel, sit, down, finish (left and right). SFE, moving stands, down in motions, started on directed retrieves and go outs, targets, scent discrimination. started on tracking and doing scent pads and short tracks (we just never got to indicating articles), started on drafting. dog that went to shows with 1800 other INTACT animals, and did fine - off leash, in rings. my dog passed the CGC, passed a therapy dog test (though i could never certify him ethically, so i didnt pursue it), was the other dog in the CGC exam for two local dog clubs. he was started in agility basics, working on both sides, directionals, etc.

my dog was the first doberman IN THIS NATION to get a qualifying rally leg. he was one of the first THREE DOGS in the nation to qualify, PERIOD.
he would have been the first doberman in this nation to get his RN, except i didnt enter the last show that weekend due to vet school.


and youre telling me he was somehow less than yours because his BALLS were cut off and his magic wand shot blanks? sorry - you have absolutely NO BASIS for which to judge a working dog, PERIOD. you haven't shown that you understand what drive is, or how to harness it, at all - and that is a fundamental part of training a dog and understanding what to do with them, and how to get there.


The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.


ok - so again, how does this make wp somehow better and more in need of drive than obedience and agility? except for rally - i couldnt talk to my dog except for commands, no dancing, no singing, no coaxing. youre talking down about sports that you have NO IDEA what they entail. from what you describe, your dog needs very little training or control PERIOD for weight pull - just needs to PULL. and that is certainly NOT the case with obedience and agility.

[weylyn]

First off, I'll admit I have little to no experience in WP...BUT...one thing I remember that is stressed is that the dog doesn't train in prey drive. It can be unsafe, depending on how much prey drive the dog has.

"Not only is baiting against the rules but relying on your dogs prey instincts could lead to problems down the road"
Scot E. Dowd (Matrix Kennels)

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

I don't want to downplay the stress of almost losing your dog, ChiBree, but everything is a risk. Feeding your dog is a risk (choking/etc), letting your dog outside is a risk (getting stolen/lost/eating poison/etc), letting your dog play with other dogs is a risk, giving your pet vaccinations is a risk, giving your pet medications is a risk and the list goes on. You really can't say your dog will never have surgery, in her old age she might need it. *shrugs*

[tempura tantrum]

your dog needs very little training or control PERIOD for weight pull - just needs to PULL.

Being in Nordic breeds, I've hung around Malamutes for quite some time (briefly considered going into the breed)- and witnessed several weight pull competitions at specialty shows or supported entries. At least in Mals, the above quote is *absolutely* true. I watched dogs who had never so much stepped into a harness before, successfully complete a wieght pull. You really can do absolutely anything in your power (besides crossing the line), to get your dog to pull to you. It was great fun to watch- any sense of decorum the owner may have had before, was GONE when it was their dog's turn.

Nevertheless, I saw several very green dogs do it pretty much on instinct- there was minimal calling and cheering. The dog just did it. Intact and altered dogs alike competed...and I honestly saw no difference in performance. There were dogs on both sides that failed.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

How many dogs have you ever shown, Mach1? How many have you titled?

There are NO perfect dogs. Not one. Not anywhere. Not ever. Dogs are required to be intact to compete in conformation shows as it is a venue to evaluate future breeding stock. NO club (except maybe ADBA) requires any dog to be intact for working events.

I think it's very nice that you are finally out doing something with your dogs. However, your defensive attitude seems to really get in the way of your ever learning anything. Spay/neuter does not tend to lower the drive in most dogs. Many of us who have actual experience with this have stated this FACT to you.

Being involved in dogs in a MEANINGFUL AND RESPONSIBLE WAY means keeping an open mind and learning all the time.

I could show you a nearly 5YO bitch who has been spayed since she was 15 months old who is ANYTHING but a fat settled lacking in drive dog.

Your comments really do illustrate where you are at this time in your dog life, and where you are likely headed.

It would be much better for you if you were not quite so defensive. Slinging mud at those who have exponentially more experience than you do, and whose thoughts you should be paying attention to and learning from will be counterproductive for you in the long run, to say the least.

By the way, have you had the hips and elbows done on your girl yet? If I were doing heavy work like intensive weight pulling, I'd want to know what I was dealing with for the health and wellbeing of the dog.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk. Everytime I've signed that little piece of paper before a spay or neuter I thought "oh that will never happen to me" well.....guess what? I signed that piece of apaper again before her surgery and it DID happen :( Thank god my Vet is good and brought her back :) I think its a personal choice. Do what your heart feels is best for YOU and YOUR DOG. Good luck :)

Chibree, I understand your concerns, however I would urge you to speak to your vet about Pyometra and it's concerns.

This is always a risk for an intact bitch, it would mean a mandatory emergency spay on a bitch with an extreme infection at the same time.

There are ways to anesthetise her using gas only that might be safer.

I would discuss this with your vet, and possibly ask for a consult/referral with a veterinarian who specialized in high risk cases re: anesthesia.

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

My beliefs are MY beliefs and what I do is MY choice. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should do - didn't ask. I was addressing the person asking advice and just letting them know my experience.


While your dog was under for the c-section, why the hell didn't you have her spayed right then so that she WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PUT UNDER AGAIN??? And I agree it really is a shame that you will never put her under to be spayed because you are so afraid of her being put out. If she dies of Pyometra which they get from not being spayed, it will be a real shame... and guess what the only treatment is for it? To spay her!

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

And MACH you really have some issues. Maybe seek some anger management classes or something? No one brought up your cancer or your accidental litter EXCEPT FOR YOU! If you are just trying to get attention that is really too bad because no one is going to feel sorry for someone who disrupts a peaceful conversation.

[summitview]

While your dog was under for the c-section, why the hell didn't you have her spayed right then so that she WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PUT UNDER AGAIN???

Because then she can't pump out more puppies to sell and "give to family" ?

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Because then she can't pump out more puppies to sell and "give to family" ?

Well I mean, duh, was the vet dumb enough to not suggest this? Did you not think of it? I mean the incision is already going to be there from the c-section. You obviously are not going to breed her again unless you are not too bright if she had this much trouble delivering the litter on her own.

Well if she ever gets accidentally pregnant again, for the love of god spay her when they do the c-section.

[Mach1girl]

mach 1- can you share with us what you have accomplished with your dogs besides allowing them to accidentally reproduce

maybe if your dogs had better breeding, this wouldnt be the case. all i know is, i have a neutered male here who has drive coming out of his EARS. enough drive that it impressed a trainer who competes on INTERNATIONAL levels and places in the top three with his dog, on his first meeting of my dog.


ba-bye, dear. let us know when the next accidental breeding happens, ok?


didn't realize an accidental BYBer who learned 'everything there is' on online forums is 'Teh Queen' of all in WP.

lord, dont tell me now youre falling into the typical BYB excuse of you have (insert any disease here) and thats why you bred... im sorry you have cancer, but it has no reason, and is no excuse, for anything.



What was that???No one mentioned anything about my litter but me???

Man, wrong again.

It's been fun here and I appreciate all the help from the good ol guys and gals when my litter came, but it is not worth having every post that I make picked apart and changed around towards me.

This forum needs more rules, I belong to many and this is the only one that allows such nonsense.

I say if you dont know the breed, shut up. But hey, that is me.

Again, thanks a bunch to those who understand and understood. And to those who keep on, I hope you rot in hell for what you have done!

To make fun of what happene, your judgment day will come. And that's all cool.

Glad your grammpa had you there for him, maybe you understand alittle.

But I will not have the stress of having what happened thrown at me like it has for 6 months now.

One day you might end up with cancer.....and think back.

[dogstarsleddogs]

Can I make one more suggestion? Close this topic. This is starting to get out of hand. We've gone from legitimate reasons to alter/not alter, to attacking people. Come one everyone, why cant we all just forget the mistakes of others and move on?

[summitview]

Mach1,

You're just a BYB who doesn't like hearing the truth. It looks like you've run out of half-arsed excuses. Oh well, if you weren't leaving, I'm sure you would have just been banned for your mouth in that last post.

[summitview]

Come one everyone, why cant we all just forget the mistakes of others and move on?

Because some people refuse to admit that their mistakes were wrong and continue to make them. Some people refuse to learn.

[elegy]

I say if you dont know the breed, shut up. But hey, that is me.

and what about the people here who do know the breed and still don't agree with you or what you're doing?

[tessa_s212]

Come one everyone, why cant we all just forget the mistakes of others and move on?

Mistakes can only be forgiven and forgotten when someone has admitted that mistake and learned from it. If they continue to make the same stupid mistakes, refuse to admit that mistake, and refuse to learn from that mistake, they are not worthy of being forgived, nor their mistake forgotten.

[RedyreRottweilers]

If there were more rules, you would be subject to them as well.

apparently it's impossible for you to debate any subject without jumping immediately to defensive posturing and name calling. It would seem like that chip on your shoulder would get really heavy after a while.

It's a shame, really, because there are a number of experienced people who have commented intelligently on this thread about the relationship between spaying and neutering and working drive in dogs.

When you breed, you open yourself up to comments from others about such breedings. Your attitude about such comments, and your response to them, has formed the viewpoint that responsible breeders hold of you.

Accidents can happen, altho my thoughts on that subject re: your litter are well known. It's what people do AFTER the accident that tells the real tale about what they are made of.

Whether you go or whether you stay, I hope you will get the hip elbow eye and heart testing that should be done on your bitch.

[crazy_paws]

LizzieCollie,

From my experiences, spaying and neutering is necessary for companion, non-showing dogs. As well as the other benefits listed, it helps with false pregnancy as in the case of my chi.