I stand behind my dogs...

[Buckshot]

This is a question to you folks who breed dogs. I paid about 1200 bucks plus airfaire for my puppy. When I got him he was only 4 weeks old. He had cocidiosis<sp>and round worms. Later it turned out that he had only one testicle fall and it seems that his growth is terribly behind schedule. He hasnt gained a pound from 8 months to 11 months. My agreement with my breeder was that I would get a male very suitable for breeding (before the bashing starts I will say that I have opted against breeding). Although I dont plan to breed I feel that I didnt recieve what I paid for. I have also never recieved my papers. We love our dog and wouldnt trade him for anything so we wouldnt ever consider returning him. On the other hand we feel like we didnt get what we paid for and should get some money back. I notice some breeders sell nonbreeding stock dogs substantially cheaper.

Do you guys think I should get some of my money back?

[dr2little]

This is a question to you folks who breed dogs. I paid about 1200 bucks plus airfaire for my puppy. When I got him he was only 4 weeks old. He had cocidiosis<sp>and round worms. Later it turned out that he had only one testicle fall and it seems that his growth is terribly behind schedule. He hasnt gained a pound from 8 months to 11 months. My agreement with my breeder was that I would get a male very suitable for breeding (before the bashing starts I will say that I have opted against breeding). Although I dont plan to breed I feel that I didnt recieve what I paid for. I have also never recieved my papers. We love our dog and wouldnt trade him for anything so we wouldnt ever consider returning him. On the other hand we feel like we didnt get what we paid for and should get some money back. I notice some breeders sell nonbreeding stock dogs substantially cheaper.

Do you guys think I should get some of my money back?

Unfortunately, contracts often stipulate that the money will come when the dog is returned. I'm sure you don't want that and it's sad that often they have you by the "short hairs" once you've fallen in love with the pup. Terrible..:(

[RedyreRottweilers]

Airlines do not ship puppies before 8 weeks. PERIOD.

Caveat Emptor.

It is up to the BUYER to educate themselves so as not to get shafted by stupid breeders such as the one who produced and sold that puppy, ASSUMING you are telling the truth here.

[Buckshot]

Airlines do not ship puppies before 8 weeks. PERIOD.

Caveat Emptor.

It is up to the BUYER to educate themselves so as not to get shafted by stupid breeders such as the one who produced and sold that puppy, ASSUMING you are telling the truth here.


You are wrong. They do ship them if they are told the pup was 12 weeks old. You can assume that I am telling the truth, why the hell would I lie about this? I usually stay clear of this part of this forum just because of those kind of remarks. It wouldnt be the first time that I have trusted people and not gotten what I thought I was getting. I would still rather be a bit too trusting than not trusting enough. Nothing makes enemies faster than ASSUMING that the people they are dealing with are dishonest.

[summitview]

You got had by a BYB/PM. Research your breeder better next time, find a good one. Deal with your money loss and enjoy your pet. Please neuter.

[RedyreRottweilers]

You bear a significant portion of the blame for your misfortunes for not having done your research better.

NO responsible breeder would EVER ship a puppy at 4 weeks. That is inhumane. Beyond the pale. I cannot imagine anyone not realizing that something is DREADFULLY WRONG when a breeder would agree to part with ANY puppy of ANY breed at 4 weeks.

Chalk it up to a learning experience, and as SV said, please NEUTER.

[Buckshot]

You got had by a BYB/PM. Research your breeder better next time, find a good one. Deal with your money loss and enjoy your pet. Please neuter.

We certainly do enjoy the pet. I want another one and was hoping that the phrase "I stand behind my dogs" meant more in the breeding world. If I could get half of that money back it would be much easier to buy another one (from a different breeder). I see the way this is heading though and I am losing optimism by the minute lol.

[doberkim]

if your breeder is that bad (and it sounds like she was), then i seriously doubt theres any way youre going to get money back, period.

[Roxy's CD]

I agree Doberkim.

It all sounds horrible so I can't see a happy ending with you getting any money back.

Suck it up. Learn from your mistakes. :D

You could try and pursue getting some money back but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Fran27]

Did you sign a contract at all?

[Buckshot]

You bear a significant portion of the blame for your misfortunes for not having done your research better.

NO responsible breeder would EVER ship a puppy at 4 weeks. That is inhumane. Beyond the pale. I cannot imagine anyone not realizing that something is DREADFULLY WRONG when a breeder would agree to part with ANY puppy of ANY breed at 4 weeks.

Chalk it up to a learning experience, and as SV said, please NEUTER.


Well, 4 weeks wasnt the agreement. When I got the puppy he had paperwork saying that he was 12 weeks old and also female. I told the breeder that I wanted him no earlier than 10 weeks old. I would have never known, if I wasnt talking to forum members here that told me his weight should be tripple what it actually was. I do bear the blame because I expect people to offer what they advertise and expectation almost always leads to disappointment. I have a bad problem with not reading for days and days about stuff that I want to purchase. I only talked to a few breeders and they all seemed like Aholes except for the one that I purchased from...go figure

[corsomom]

Have you had any contact with this breeder since you bought the dog?

[Buckshot]

Have you had any contact with this breeder since you bought the dog?

Once when I informed him that Buckshots testicle didnt fall. He told me to give it time it would fall. I will never again buy from a breeder that I dont get to see the place where they are bred, if that means flying to Brazil for the next one.

[LizzieCollie]

What state are you in and where did you purchase the dog?

I believe the best you could do was ask for the money you have had to spend on vet bills, you cant ask to get any portion of the money back because that would mean returning the dog in any judges court. Cant have your cake and eat it too, they say.

[RedyreRottweilers]

FWIW, it is IMPERITIVE to neuter a dog who has retained a testicle. They have a high percentage of becoming malignant if they are not removed from the body cavity.

[AmberwayGSD]

I hate crappy breeders.For your next pup research the breeder as much as you can.I hate to say it but you are likely SOL on getting your money back.Trying wont hurt though,give them a call and see what they say.Worst they can say is no.

[Buckshot]

The first step I take in dealing with customers that feel that they havent gotten a good value is saying "I'm sorry, it must have been unpleasant for you to bring this to my attention. Now, what can we do to fix this?" This has earned myself and companies that I have worked for, a huge amount of money more than what we would have gotten long term if I would have said things like "You should have done your research!" or "You should have gotten it in writing!"

I dont really care about what judges or the law thinks. I just wanted to know what you people think. Do you think I deserve to be lied to and cheated because I am ignorant about dog breeding practices? If you do, remember that next time someone services your car, home or your own body and takes advantage of your ignorance.

That being said, what do you think a fair settlement would be?..I basically just want to know if I am being frivolous.

[Roxy's CD]

Oh, you definitely got ripped off!

There's no two ways about it!

But, to think that you'll get some sort of settlement is foolish.

This "breeder" obviously has no idea what their doing. Your first hint is that they sold you a puppy that was 4 weeks old! Any reputable breeder won't let a pup go until 8 weeks. But you already know this...

I don't believe how you got treated is fair, but this world isn't fair. You should get some sort of settlement but I would be surprised if you did.

[Aussie Red]

I feel bad for you Buckshot. I think that there should be in these times a way that judges would make breeders take the loss. And maybe that is coming because they are beginning to not think of dogs like furniture that can just be returned. Me ?? Yes I think the breeder should offer you a discount.
On another note out here in the western states alot of pure bred pups are coming in from Mexico and being sold by breeders here at the age of 4 weeks old and being misrepresented as being an older pup. Unfortunatly many buyers are buying defective sickly pups and loose them.
Again there should be a remedy for you but alas I think there isn't other then to hit breeder where it hurts . Spread the word on her/his business.

[Sunnypup]

I think you should find a copy of your contract (you have one right...I was trying to sift through other peoples crap to find out but got tired of it so just decided to respond...) Find a good vet who can verify your pups age...I assume we're talking about Buckshot right? If the vet can verify that your breeder breeched contract by sending you your pup too early you could have a case. Also I'd bring up the fact that you have paperwork stating that your dog was of the opposite sex then he is...That might just do something to undermine ANY credibility the "breeder" has. Oh, and if the agreement was a breeding stock dog you could always go the route of you lost out on an investment (gag) so you could get more $ back that way. I'd first call and talk to the breeder and see what they have to say on the matter. Obviously you aren't going to give your buddy back now and potentially if he isn't good for breeding they would just destroy him if you did "trade him in" so I'd use that to your advantage too...(gotta love the fact that to some people...like not any chazzers but some people...dogs are like cars:rolleyes: ) This is all just my opinion but I think you were ripped off by a bad breeder, atleast in the sense that you did not get what you paid for. On the other hand you now have your buddy so atleast the loser idiot who sold him to you did something right. Bottom line, gather evidence and talk to the breeder then if that doesn't go well, a lawyer. It can't hurt right? Oh and to all of you self righteous idgets out there who condemned BS for what he did, I assume you have NEVER made a mistake before that you later came to regret so you have ALL the right in the world to assault him :rolleyes: :mad:

[corsomom]

A good reputable breeder would offer you a replacement pup and would not have you return your dog.Good luck to you.

[Gempress]

I don't think you're being petty, Buckshot. You paid money, and the breeder did not deliver what was promised. I'd be mad too.

Do you think I deserve to be lied to and cheated because I am ignorant about dog breeding practices? If you do, remember that next time someone services your car, home or your own body and takes advantage of your ignorance.


Well said!

[corsomom]

Ya I did not understand some of the replies either. He got screwed by a crappy breeder.

[LabBreeder]

You got screwed. I wouldn't hold my breath about getting any money back if I were you either. Did they not send any pictures beforehand? Or tell you when he (or she) was born? I just don't see how they could say you were getting a female when you asked for a male for breeding purposes in the first place (unless the dog was just supposed to be "good for breeding" and not a specific gender). What breed is Buckshot anyways? I don't think I've seen any pics of him on here...that I've seen at least.

[RD]

I think you absolutely deserve to be refunded some of your money, Buckshot. Unfortunately, from what I've heard about this guy, I doubt he will give you a cent.
I am not sure the deal with airlines, but I think it would be very easy for someone to say that a 4 week old Fila puppy is 8-12 weeks. I remember your first photo of Buckshot and he didn't look like a 4 week old puppy. I'm not sure what kind of paperwork airlines require, but I wouldn't put it past the breeder to have lied about that too. Perhaps he had two litters at once and swapped records - who knows.

If the dog was purchased from an ethical breeder, you most likely would be refunded part of the purchase price (as you did pay for a breeding quality male) but then again, if he was purchased from an ethical breeder you would not have recieved him sickly and at 4 weeks of age.

I think the best thing you could do at this point is neuter Buckshot (for health reasons more than anything else - undescended testicles are at a higher risk for cancer) and consider this a learning experience. I'm sorry you got decieved like that. My dog's breeder did her best to rip me off, too. (I'm sure she feels really good about herself knowing that she cheated an eager, ignorant 13 year old out of her money :rolleyes: )

[Sheka]

wow.. my dogs costed 50$, were both healthy and 8 weeks old. I sure got lucky here, i went to a rescue tho, but since u wanted "breeding quality" for a dog u werent planing on breeding (?), i guess a breeder was the only option. next time, post the site of the breeder on here, and im sure alot of ppl will help.
Dont hold ur breath on getting ur money back tho. I still havent chased down the car repair guy who charged me too much to fix my car
IF ANY1 SEES JORGE, TELL HIM HE CAN RUN,BUT HE CANT HIDE! lol jk jk
i wanna see some pics of this pup tho :)

[yoko]

IF ANY1 SEES JORGE, TELL HIM HE CAN RUN,BUT HE CANT HIDE

lol a little off topic but i laughed for like a half an hour when i read that XD

[ihartgonzo]

That is such a terrible situation. =( Of course I sympathize for you, and "should've"s won't solve anything, but did you consider questioning the breeder as to why they sent you a 4 week-old puppy with illegitimate health certs? That HAS to be punishable, and you could've easily turned him in and recieved some money back if you fought it. My brother-in-law fought a bad breeder when he got his Mastiff puppy too young (the breeder claimed to pay less for shipping due to weight) & the puppy had severe kennel cough/URI which took months of treatment, with forged health certs. The breeder refunded everything but shipping charges and has a bad name with the airline, and also was investigated by AC.

That said, what I would predict is no money at all from that jerk. If they do offer you a puppy, don't take it! Seriously. If you want another dog, you'll need much much less than $600 (half of what you paid for your puppy) to adopt a dog from a shelter... one that you can actually MEET before adopting, and one whose age & health you know for certain. ;) That's the best advice I can offer. We all live and learn, and heck yes I have been screwed over for car repairs, but now I know tons more about what to look out for and I won't ever be a "victim" to that again.

[Red_ACD_for_me]

HAVE YOU NEUTERED YOUR DOG YET? I read where two people had mentioned it but you haven't replied to it :) . For the record, my aunt got a GSD flown in from Pennsylvania from a supposed "reputable breeder". Well, he has a very poor temperament and he also had an un-descended testicle. My aunt fixed him at 8 months and they could not find the second testicle so they had to do an MRI to find it and it was up around his anal sacs :( ! I hope you have fixed your boy because if you don't he will definately get cancer at some point. It has actually been known for a male to get cancer with un-descended testicles at an early age. As far as his breeder, what a rotten person to ship a puppy at 4 weeks old :mad: Lucky that your boy arrived alive. Good luck and hope your boy is doing okay :)

[Buckshot]

I have discussed the undescended testicle with my vet and we will be scheduling an appointment in the next few days.

[Zoom]

I would try to fight it. I would also try and enlist the help of other Fila breeders to get 'your' breeder blacklisted and possibly shut down. Buckshot is a great dog obviously, but you may have gotten really lucky. Someone else may not be, and with certain people eyeing the Fila as next in line for BSL, I'd like to see everything stay on the straight and narrow as possible.

[AmberwayGSD]

Realistically the most you would likely be able to get would be the difference in price of a Pet Pup to a Show Pup.I am going through somewhat of a similar situation.Bought a Puppy on a co own.Puppy had Parvo,puppy had to be put down.Breeder is a piece of work and wont give money for vet costs or a replacement puppy.

[Fran27]

I think you guys give up too easily... Contact them, tell them you will start a lawsuit if they don't give you some money back, and if nothing is done contact the better business bureau and tell them about it... at least maybe it will prevent more people from being screwed.

I think the main problem will be that you took so long to do something about it... you should have contacted them right when you got the pup.

[dr2little]

I just read some of the reply's that you got at the start of this thread.....ouch! It is your responsibility to research, sounds like you did your best. It is absolutely horriblie what was done to you and this pup....not your fault!! I'd try to do something....at the very least drag the breeders name so far in the mud that it's illegible!!:mad: Do they have a website...can we see??

[LizzieCollie]

Please dont give up, I have been thinking of a similar situation which I have been going through. I bought a car a few months ago and the car had 1,000 dollars in parking tickets so it couldnt be transferred to my name until they were paid. The lady who sold me the car did not want to pay the tickets or give me my money back so we took her to court. They said that they couldnt force her to pay, but if she agreed that we could get the payment. We have started to receive payments on the car and when it is payed in full she will have her car back.

So maybe you can still do something about it. Get the breeder to pay your vet bills and the difference between a sick pet quality pup and a healthy show quality one. Good luck with this

[bubbatd]

Good luck , Buck . You sure were given the shaft. It's either a lesson learned or you might get some money back as the dog isn't breedable.

[MomOf7]

Sorry for your misfortune. :(

[Mordy]

Buckshot, nobody deserves to be ripped off.

Depending on what's in your contract, I'd definitely pursue getting some money back, if there's any chance at all that it will come through.

I think the limit for small claims court in CO is $7,500 - that's more than enough to cover your dispute. It just depends on how solid of a case you can present, but from what you mentioned, if the agreement was on a female puppy and you got a male (not to mention the retained testicle thing), maybe there's hope.

[Debi]

I think you guys give up too easily... Contact them, tell them you will start a lawsuit if they don't give you some money back, and if nothing is done contact the better business bureau and tell them about it... at least maybe it will prevent more people from being screwed.

I think the main problem will be that you took so long to do something about it... you should have contacted them right when you got the pup.

I TOTALLY agree. the only problem I see is that you really should have complained immediately, but I wouldn't give up without a battle. I'd ask politely first...via registered letter (keep copy). I may even send a follow-up letter worded a bit more strongly. if they ignored me, I'd start threats galore. if they practice as a breeder, some states require you to have a kennel license....I'd turn them in if that's an option there. I'd complain to the better business bureau (they are acting as a business), the attorney general, if nothing else it would hound them with paperwork. I'd threaten legal action (it would be great if you know an attorney that could send a letter)....I'd be a royal B!tch solely because they deserve it. sure maybe it wouldn't get a refund, but they should NOT be allowed to operate like that. and instead of bashing, if more people put energy into making poor breeder's lives miserable maybe we could start to change things. I'd turn them into the humane society for cruelty....ANYTHING I could think of. now I want to smack them silly...LOL OH..and you could ask them if they've paid taxes on their profits...perhaps a little note to the IRS. get all your vet papers in order, and GO for it.

[Buckshot]

Thanks for all of the responses. You guys have opened up several options that I havent thought about. Since I dont know everyone here and any possible ties to this breeder, I wont state any course of action that I plan on taking, other than a phone call.

Thanks again

[filarotten]

Good Luck, Buckshot. Go get em! You really have had a rough time with that place. They deserve to be shut down.

I can add this...one of the Fila forums, it was mentioned about your breeder's wife hitting her dogs in the head with their food pans. She was getting ripped by members.

You know, it may not be a bad idea to hit those forums. Many breeders on there do not like your breeder and would like to see them shut down.

You can always start a blog as well.

[Debi]

anything we can do to help..I know I will. probably nothing, but just wanted you to know you have my support. :)

[Renee750il]

Sorry I missed this, BS . . . mea culpa

I haven't read through the whole thread, but Buckshot doesn't deserve to be mauled over this. I'm familiar with the jerk who sold Buckshot to him. His "kennel" is actually just a few hours from me. Turtletown, Tennessee. Fila people tend to refer to him as "Turtletown" and shake their heads.

The guy knows how to present himself. He talks a great game, especially to someone who isn't extremely experienced at dealing with breeders. He's a first class snake in the grass and Two-legged Buckshot just got had, pure and simple. And believe me, even if he DID (like that would ever happen) send Buckshot back for a refund, that refund would never come.

Turtletown is blackballed among true Fila people . . . His new angle is supposedly that he's not breeding anymore, just rescuing :rolleyes: Yeah. Right.

Turtletown is just due a good old-fashioned ass-whuppin' and that's really about all there is to it. Problem is, he's got too many dogs around to get by with it . . . :mad:

Next time you want a dog, let me know. If we need to, we'll take a road trip to Mexico. Or if Amy's got an upcoming litter, we'll get you one of those if we can.

[whatszmatter]

Not that this any bearing on this particular situation, but if you're buying a puppy at 8-12 weeks with the intention of him being a stud dog, chances are better that he won't turn out to be a dog worthy of stud.

That's really an unavoidable risk you take any time you buy a puppy with those intentions in mind from even the most reputable breeders. If you really want a dog for stud its best to spend the extra cash and get a proven one or keep back males from you breedings till one developes into a suitable stud. Buying puppies is too big of a risk IMO to be a stud dog some day.

undescended testicles happen as well, but most breeders will get you a new pup in that situation. As for shipping at 4 weeks well, this guy should have his kennel license and rights to breed animals stripped immediately.

[Buckshot]

Good Luck, Buckshot. Go get em! You really have had a rough time with that place. They deserve to be shut down.

I can add this...one of the Fila forums, it was mentioned about your breeder's wife hitting her dogs in the head with their food pans. She was getting ripped by members.

You know, it may not be a bad idea to hit those forums. Many breeders on there do not like your breeder and would like to see them shut down.

You can always start a blog as well.

Filarotten, could you send me a link to that forum please?


To the rest of you, Thanks for the support!

[jess2416]

I dont know much about this...(thats why I havent posted) but I hope everything works out for you...

So sorry you had to go through this...

[pitbulliest]

This is why you should never purchase a dog over the internet so to speak....go meet the breeder, see the dogs, see where they stay, what they eat, their conditions, the parents, etc....

Or better yet, GO RESCUE FROM A SHELTER..there are hundreds..thousands...god, MILLIONS of dogs out there waiting for a home...you don't intend on breeding anymore..thank god..so now go rescue a dog.

[bubbatd]

I agree ..... no GOOD breeder wants or needs the internet!!

[Renee750il]

This is why you should never purchase a dog over the internet so to speak....go meet the breeder, see the dogs, see where they stay, what they eat, their conditions, the parents, etc....



That's good advice, under normal circumstances. But when you're dealing with a rare breed not necessarily realistic. I'm very thankful that there are rare breed breeders who have websites. If it weren't for them, it would be next to impossible to glean the information necessary to make a decision. The good ones don't screen any less scrupulously (with the exception of actually making a cross-country or international home visit) than a good breeder of a popular breed who is close.

This is an example of what you want to see: http://www.filadog.com/welcome.htm

[stevinski]

I agree ..... no GOOD breeder wants or needs the internet!!

i think its ok for a breeder to have a website, i mean,
why not?

[Mordy]

i think its ok for a breeder to have a website, i mean,
why not?

Of course it is ok for breeders to have a website. Just because a breeder has a website that doesn't make him a greedy puppy miller who is just after people's money.

There are many excellent breeders out there who put up very nice sites with lots of important information. Why not showcase the breed, their special traits and needs, health testing results, the breeder's accomplishments in conformation and performance and so on?

Case in point, when my parents were looking for a new puppy, they called me to help them find a good breeder. They live in Germany, I'm in California and there's a 9-hour time zone difference.

The internet was very helpful. They wanted a standard schnauzer, so the first thing I did was look up the website of the parent breed club. They had a breeder referral and access to a database of health testing results (cardiac defects etc.).

I read through the test results and then visited the websites of the breeders with the best ones. I had to weed out some more, since for example I didn't want my parents to have to deal with a kennel-raised pup, but wanted a breeder who raises litters in the home with regular human contact.

In the end I was able to email my parents links to the sites of 4 or 5 breeders to check out and schedule visits.

If it hadn't been for the internet, all this work would have been so much harder. My parents are good dog owners with the right ideas about training and care, but they don't know much about picking a good breeder - it has been 26 years since they have bought a puppy themselves. I don't think they would have ended up with what turned out to be a first-rate puppy from a truly excellent breeder if they had had to go by phone calls or ads in dog magazines.

[filarotten]

Buckshot, I don't remember which forum it was on, but I will pm you links to the three I belong to. Sorry I don't keep the posts. You will have to go back to the postings around March, I think.

I called you breeder several times, and left messages looking for a rescue dog for mom. He has never returned one phone call.